Lets Get It Podcast #81 So Who's The Pendatang Now? Ft. Prof. Tajuddin Rasdi

Hi professor tajudin how are you fine thank you for inviting me I as I said to a few podcasters I like to be seen with young people now cuz my demography seems to be old people but you're always around young people as well right given your profession yes uh I am but that is in the University they only want to know when the assignment is due and then they want to B you they got all this a and things like that so that's why I spend most of my time outside of the University because that's

how I am able to learn when I speak and people ask question and and they they ask a lot of question outside of the University you know the public uh that is how I build up my my my knowledge and things like that so Professor I first took notice of you when um you did har kandas podcast this was about two months ago MH after finishing the whole episode right I was Really impressed at how you simplified certain issues racial Affairs which quickly turned into to highly sensitive topic for Malaysians in general but more importantly

it was the message that you sent to Malaysian non-muslims which I thought was really important to highlight like with every racial Affair that you guys covered you never failed to shed a light on how Islam is a religion of compassion and it's merciless it's very much not alike with some of the behaviors that our M Muslim politicians have displayed mhm Professor do you mind introducing yourself well I'm uh uh my my full name is Muhammad tajudin B Muhammad Rashi the meaning of Muhammad tajudin is Muhammad the crown of religion you know touch ad is the

crown of religion doesn't mean I'm the crown of religion it means Muhammad is the crown of religion so uh in the days of old uh when you want to name a child always go To the usas so you name the person Abdul Rahman the the slave of the merciful yeah and things like that not nowadays where you mix names and things like that so names are very sacred in those days I was uh in uh uh uh scholar St Mark um Borth and then when my father who was a policeman um retired um I had

to find a different School in typing which I found in smjk Haan is bacular school it's a Chinese vernacular school but it's medium is uh uh half English and and half basa Malaysia so uh I took the Malaysian certificate of education for the last time it was offered after that it was sigil plar Malaysia throughout this was 1970 you uh 1979 that I took the took the uh MCE okay so I was then I went for a brief period in the lower six at smjk hland when then I was offered uh to go overseas uh

um uh to the United States States now uh my father was a simple policeman I never really traveled very Far but suddenly I'm flown you know more than halfway around the world to uh University of Wisconsin Green Bay uh first uh two years then University of Wisconsin Milwaukee to pursue architecture as a as a degree and we were offered sixe scholarship by the uh uh public service department uh and uh there I completed my degree and Masters 1984 and came back 1986 and after a stint of during that time was the recession so supposed to

be a government scholar immediately get a job but but but we were we were not employed you know because of the uh the freeze in the U employment uh and everywhere is send 100 letters to architect firm also you you you cannot cannot get a job if you cannot get a job don't have any pay something like that uh so uh then luckily I was uh able to secure a place at University technology of Malaysia 1987 about just a year uh after I I came Home and I always wanted to be an academic and uh

my dream of becoming an academic was realize and uh 1992 I got a scholarship from UTM to go to Edinburgh Scotland for my for my PhD M and in philosophy yeah doctor philosophy University of Edinburgh and then uh coming back uh 1995 I became a associate professor in 1997 quite quite fast at that time after that I became a full professor in uh what year was it 1995 um and after that uh I stayed at UTM until 2015 where I asked for optional retirement and since 2015 until now I'm I'm with uh uh ucsi University

but I'm also quite recently last year appointed by the government of uh Unity government to be a uh Board of Governors at University kangan Malaysia um so now in one sense I'm at two two places uh one of course is the full Professor teaching and having that the other one is just at the very top Management level okay uh Professor very very detailed very detailed introduction of yourself yeah um so I've gone through some of the writings that you've done there's obviously a lot a lot hundreds of them you've mentioned a few times that in

your writings that our society is dying so what do you mean by that and how did we get to hear over the years is that still your current opinion unfortunately very much so uh when we say dying there are two aspects um how does uh a community or a Humanity dies number one when you refuse to learn anything new you think that after graduating whether uh after school let's say you learn something like history or religion or or or or something and then you go to university you learn things like business or or ecture or

then you say okay it's done so no more learning after that not only in your chosen profession all the things That you already know but expanding beyond that so when you have a society that is very comfortable in the Tempur I call it you know the the the coconut shell uh of religion of tradition of History uh then then it's very difficult to meet the challenges of the world uh with and so in one sense you die because you don't one definition of death is you don't grow okay uh the other thing is about uh

the idea of trust and dignity now when you begin to think that your own race or your own religion is the only thing that will save you in this world and in the next and you have no place uh and even not just no place but even consider others as enemies then it's is a case of worse than death because at least death you can't do anything but if this kind of attitude you could cause much pain uh to others as well as to yourself so it's not just death but Also I would say what

is worse than death you know something something along along that line so so the the inability to grow intellectually uh to understand things in a different Way new things and all that and the inability to feel to have the passion you know God created us unlimited passion you can love all or you can hate all all right so this one there's no limit it's like the cosmos there's no no limit no end okay I don't see any end in there okay so you can love somebody thousands of miles away you can love somebody uh just

uh in your neighborhood or in your I mean this this is is Limitless but we do not learn how to harness this and and that is where I say that the society has died you have um obviously been very vocal when criticizing certain uh Malay Muslim politicians right but for people that would say why would we have to listen to you you yourself is not anad or a Muti So why should we listen to anything you say regarding Islam in Islam there is no such thing as prood what is pruit pruit means a section of

people that has been given the authority of religion to pronounce uh someone is sinful or not sinful and things like that as far as understand when I learned the Islamic Reform movement that the uh responsibility of preserving Islam expanding Islam and taking care of Islam so that it can live and survive and even um uh prosper in terms of the uh Community is on each and every individual Muslim so if you don't listen to uh some good arguments from a person like me who uses the Quran as well as the examples of the prophet and

and you choose to only listen to say the clerics or the mutis then you actually don't know the responsibility of your own religion you see the Malay have been brought up in What I call cultural Islam in cultural Islam you just learn a little bit about Islam and leave everything to theas and to the and to the uh to the Muti but when the Islamic Reform movement came with an Ibrahim and abim and then later on ikram and all that you will find that many of these professionals have the knowledge of Islam which is akin

to much of the knowledge of the So-Cal usas except maybe they would know Arabic but certainly they have both the knowledge of the multidisciplinary aspect of life of the world like architecture engineering philosophy and all that but they also have the intellectual knowledge of Islam itself albeit they may not know Arabic and things like that the usas and Muti on the other hand may know the so-called Arabic and all but they do not possess the multidisiplinary nature of looking at the world nor do they have the experience of uh of the world in terms of

uh um many aspects of It whether it's economy or social and they have been given the power uh to be an authority in the sense of pronouncing uh someone is wrong or someone is right so so that's where in in in uh if you understand Islam you should listen to someone uh who uh is able to look at an issue in the first the manner of how uh the example of the Prophet uh and the Quran would uh would uh explain it but interpreted within the context of what is required in the present uh world

I give you a simple example of the mosque and the minet now many people if you say we should build a MOS without a mineral people would say oh this is ridiculous sorry what is a mineral a minat is a tower that is uh you know you put the loud speaker there for the aan to yeah you know so but then you don't know that uh the minat uh was part of the tradition of the aan or the call of prayer which was actually not part of The command of God to pray so if you

study the history which I did study the history in the translated version of English and Bahasa Indonesia and all that that the uh the aan that uh is pronounced is not part of prayer so if you don't pronounce the aan God will still accept your prayer because God never asked you to pronounce the aan if you tell that to a m he say you are liberal Pro or you are Su because has always been that the aan precede the prayer yes but that doesn't mean that that is what actually happened in the past so even

the usas will verify what I said okay so so this is where um person like me who possess not only the intellectual knowledge but also the multidisiplinary aspect of life uh combining it together but there are many Muslims who believe that you should only follow one part which is the traditional part in order to be safe so don't try anything new no Don't try anything Progressive be safe so for me as a non-muslim right I don't hear the word because I know that you vocally mentioned also that the word suat has been overused and misused

as well by a lot of Malay Muslims right uh could you give me some examples um I'm not familiar okay uh The Authority or the institutions of jakim is a good institution but first of all we must understand the institutions are the creations of man yes in Islam is not the creation of God in some religion the institutions itself is sort of given the impression that uh you know it is it is what God wanted all right I'm not going to say that is wrong or right but that's how it feel it feels right uh

so Islam is not like that the institutions is clearly of this world now uh having said that uh the institutions uh are given the uh political power uh to actually um you know order the society in this way or that way and the Institutions then follow a certain kind of Islam for instance in Malaysia it is Sunnah Sunnah Jama uh which is opposite to sh and in the Sunnah there are schools Maliki hanali Shafi you know we follow the Shafi so so in one sense if somebody were practicing other than what is being uh accepted

then they would call it well Su is a very very strong strong word yes uh you could let's say somebody following Maliki hanali you cannot call Su yet you know but they're not going to be happy with it that's right like the Shah but the sh you still cannot call them suad um the only person you can call sus is when they say things like you know they are receiving uh Revelation from God something like that because Revelation sto with the prophet and that's it you know and and most tradition also accept that but as

especially in the in this in the Malaysia you cannot you cannot say that that's where all this Ayah pin business and all that you know in one time uh saying that uh uh uh uh this is the the the the practice because you said so you know or or or denouncing prayer meaning saying that h no need to pray you know you just be a good person that is not good because the prophet himself prayed you know so how can you say that there are some people who actually say no is enough for you to

just you know understand uh the values and all that uh so those are clearly uh denoted now sadly any view uh or interpretations of the Quran in terms of sociopolitical aspects you know like uh the concert you know going to the concert and things like that if it does not align with the uh interpretation because uh religion is basically interpretation of some people so then they will use the word you know sad and that is uh very sad because then um you would uh restrict the thinking About how things uh can be you know into

the future with new knowledge new context new situation so only with the permission of the Muti of which state that you are in uh then uh can it be so I said H that's going to be difficult which that that's so so I I say in one oh in that way if I'm supervising a PhD in something Islamic then you need to have the Muti next to me is it you know so um Islam is actually much more um you know malleable and uh much more expansive in the terms of uh thoughts and ideas but

the institutions are the one that see themselves as uh the Guardians of Islam so that it doesn't be become too expensive or too uh what they use the word liberal uh and and and and things like that so that uh they can they can Jugger Islam or or or or or Safeguard Islam yes that's the that's the that's the situation so the in your opinion the institutions shouldn't be the the end or Be all of like who controls or who has Authority the institutions like the mqa Malayan qualification agency that So-Cal police the universities and

colleges they should not be the the power and authority absolute Authority in that sense they should be the guide you know the guide that says okay well uh if there is an issue you know at one particular time I remember uh the book breaking silence uh which was produced by the G25 I think back in I'm not sure G25 which G25 this uh group of M M former retired uh high ranking officers you know are they still a group right now sorry are they still a group right now yes they are still a group um

so uh they produced this book called breaking silence uh of which the authors are people like AI sharum shat Salim faruki all these are so-called experts in law in Constitution and they talk about Islam and the book was banned at that time zahed hamedi was the Minister why Was it banned it was banned because zahid referred the thing to uh the uh the So-Cal religious Scholars or the jaim or whatever and they declared well you should be banned because none of them areas okay uh even though they know what they're talking about with all the

evidence and things and things like that so that is where the problem Lies when you give to somebody who has never been trained in Constitution and then to pronounce something on Constitution and then they use such like well this person doesn't know Arabic and this person doesn't have the qualification of going through a religious school that's it you know so uh the thing that I said about moss would definitely be not be uh taken um uh uh rightly because I'm not a NAD but my book actually my first book was called the uh uh Moss

as a community center published by UTM and it was read by none other than director of the International Islamic University as well as uh another uh so-called usas and it was given to go ahead it shows that I know what I'm talking about and even though I don't know Arabic and I never went to a so-called religious school I never even completed my Islamic education in uh public school because I stopped at form two you oh you you dropped the subject yes because I was in uh smjk Haan who didn't have anad at that time

but they were going to get anad for me but then I asked my there were um if I'm not mistaken you were one of three Malay yeah one of three Malay 2,000 students and um and the other two didn't really care but I told my father I didn't really like the way to you know Islam is being taught in that manner and I could study better and he say okay so I got the permission of my father told the teacher that's why I stopped uh learning Islam so one of the point here is that Uh

I was never constrained by the so-called traditional thinking and I studied on my own uh by reading the reformist book uh by Abul Abul Mai these are if you tell the reformist like AB man they know all these books uh who are AMA in their own right uh can I ask what was your um because I mean unlike most Other M probably Malay students your age how come you had a different sort of a more open mind set of like um studying other books as well yeah you have to attribute that perhaps to God because

you know um I was quite amazed in the sense that number one um um my father even though he's a traditional Muslim but uh you know he's part of the generation of what u t tku Abdul Rahman the p i call the Pam generation they drink alcohol during that time you know uh it's a different Islam it's it's a cultural cultural Islam Okay so he only became very very uh Islamic after he retired you know so so I was never bred In a very strict uh Islamic uh family and then in school as I said

I stopped at form two and then when I went to the United States um I began reading on my own and uh and and that's how uh uh and then also I read others because I was truly searching now in Malaysia most Muslim you don't have to search if you search you a okay uh so you're not allowed to search you just thought and that's it so can you can you um actually speak more about that I heard you mention it on hari's podcast as well so like you mentioned umats encourage um Malaysian Muslims like

don't bother reading yourself so if they don't read then they are basically they only read when they are in the session is it no no no no no you're not allowed to read because you are not qualified to understand this is how it is seen for instance in order to understand the Quran they will say you need to understand Arabic you don't understand Arabic but I found out when I was in the US hey there are translations and there are commentaries and and I could actually accept that I read three different qurans commentary in order

to compare because I use the academic method so I could actually understood or understand the Quran but according to the of Malaysia then you cannot understand unless you are that's why they disallow it that's number one number two you cannot take things like you see one Hadith or listen to one person then that's it that this is the you have to consider many other aspects what I did in the United States was to find all these books and I read and I could I could list out all the books it's close to about 100 you

know uh just to learn about uh Islam the Quran uh the Hadith and I read the the Hadith nobody reads the Hadith or the prophet's Muhammad's saying and actions uh one Hadith bukari Is seven or 8,000 Hadith this is nine volumes uh of book you know and then uh Muslim Abu Dai no nobody reads that much okay even theas but I read the whole thing in Translation the English and the Indonesian translation so so with that much reading then I'm able to to to understand and and and and a lot of My Views uh uh

you know the the usad also have the same view because they read the same thing but in the in Arabic of course so so that's why the usad says to the the student don't read yourself you know you can only learn if you are with the uh with the usad now this is the traditional method of all because there are no books you know you can't print books and all that you have to write uh transcribe and all that so that's where you need they call it B Guru you know uh so you have to

have the guru if you don't have the guru then you cannot learn on your own but this is different in the present time with so many uh Sources of references and things like that so so obviously this usad learned from somewhere else and they learned the traditional Road learning of you know one way of learning no question it's it always just one one way so when they pass it on to the student it's also another one way and that is how the secret of learning Islam in Malaysia so sorry yeah Professor so uh just wanted

to touch base on that because you said that the learnings of Islam are obviously a bit old and from like aases and all that but a lot of people when I when I talk to like my aunts parents grandparents and all that they always say that um that I mean Malay people that you see today is not like how it was before like in reference to the P ramley generation and yeah I want to ask about that as well yeah Brian if you have anything you want so you I've also I've only actually took notice

of this when I've seen some of the response from My uh like the videos I posted and people remind that actually the pre um a guest that I have Dr lenu two weeks ago she mentioned um during the podcast that during her generation you know um it was very much different today she feels that we are very Silo um and she mentioned that even back then Hala and non-h Hala was um not as significant or as strict as it is today I even saw videos and this was really crazy you can still find it on

YouTube um I forgot what beer brand but it was a definitely a a Malay person that is acting in the commercial I'm can't remember hinin or carlsburg or whatever yeah um but so for the younger audience right who I think they they probably wouldn't know what happened actually back then like what what what made a sudden change when uh uh before the uh the Islamic Reform movement in the 1970s okay um the Muslims were mostly what we call cultural Muslims what is Cultural Muslim as I already explained yes you were born Muslim then you're a

Muslim I mean that's about it okay it took me to the United States to read a book called towards understanding Islam written by an UL meaning a cleric a real full-time cleric like you know we have hadang most political and also religious to say that you are not a true Muslim if you only accept Islam culturally you must understand what it means to be a muslim okay because this guy is trying to revolutionize the society in terms of putting the idea of Social and politics into the Muslim mind so that it doesn't just become a

ritual you know a small ritual uh for dying for for marriage for for all this very specific cases only yeah yeah so that was the movement now at the time uh there were already people who already realized that but they're not that many okay and they're not that popular so we were at in the 1960s Trying to modernize Malaysia and the model that we wanted to be was the western western people and T ABD Rahman put it out in the sense that we need to learn to study to be in English and they dress like

the English all this all these things everything's in English and you can see the Pam Movie Everything is English I don't know what they drink but it is uh you know in a bar I still remember Ana my favorite movies uh so I don't know what they drink and obviously wouldn't say uh but uh I don't know whether drinking lemon juice in the bar with a nightclub or something it's possible right so uh so we won't say bad things about Pam because I love his movies and I respect him very much and uh so so

that was then and then came the 1970s uh with uh this uh so-called Islamic Reform movement and one of those proponent was ano Ibrahim now what was the intention then I believe now you Have to check with anir but I believe what he wanted to do was to take the Muslim away from cultural Islam and also away from the politics of race okay because the time they were talking about malayu you know that sort of thing and Ana wanted uh the idea of uh Islam taking over malayu mind because then Islam Islam doesn't look at

people in terms of race if you're a good Muslim whether you are Chinese Indian kadan iban you are considered good so he wants to take it away from this race based perspective so he initiated this Islamic Reform movement that saw many people then young people professionals you know suddenly embracing uh this idea of religiousity at a very early age usually you become religious when you about to die I mean after re and all that okay so then everybody goes to Hajj You Know da the Juba and then the Beats prayer beats that sort of thing

but suddenly at a very young age of what 28 29 30 you are Already there because I saw these people when I was in the United States I went to United St I was 18 and I met these students who came uh to to talk about this Islamic reform and the idea of the Real Islam to them Malaysia is it Mal Malay not just Malaysian Malay of course and no Arabs or things like that they just Malay they are very strong and they were the ones who uh introduced to me this concept of Islam and

society and politics to be one rather than Islam as a cultural thing so they gave some references and they make What's called the usra meaning a a small group of Discussion Group and I learned through that and uh at Malaysia the movement was a bit different the movement intellectual in one sense but then it became the massis movement where people started to wear the tong okay the the girls were wearing the tong but not necessarily that they were on the intellectual plane that Started the movement in the United States there was also another movement called

the islamization of knowledge that's another separate movement which is also later on integrated with the sociopolitical movement that actually started in Egypt or or India these are the two uh basis of the Islamic um social political movement and and in the United States the islamization of knowledge what does islamization of knowledge means it means all the Sciences of physics anthropology sociology needs to be look at from the uh from the perspective of Islam uh in its cosmological understanding but not by the usas you know it's by the by the intellectuals uh so so the Islam

Reform movement was led by intellectuals and nonas mainly and and and that caused this uh uh this revolution of of of way now speed up 30 years what happened it was supposed to go towards the idea of uh making Islam more um Acceptable and Progressive but then Han went to prison okay so that cut off the thing all right and the Islamic movement became more of a Rebel Rebel movement and but but the uh the momentum was already there because the schools were being set up the madrasa and all that and so the children of

the first generation Islamic reform is now come to the workforce get married and then they have their children and they started now in 1970s 1960s if you meet 100 malays who are at the age of below 30 you probably find five of them performing the prayers okay only five out of 100 how about how many were to uh probably probably two or three or something like that in the 1960s or ' 70s hardly anybody nobody wears to it's a very strange concept they but now okay now I mean 1990s you got 100 people Malay 90

of them will be probably wearing the tong true uh and also Probably 80 or 0 you know we perform the play these are perform the play because they uh are part of the Islamic uh cultural revolution we call it then uh so I think that is supposed to be something which is good all right and and that's why I followed it and I was a uh strong supporter of party Islam Malaysia strong supporter of Hadi awang where I learned a lot of the tap alquran meaning the meaning of the Quran I have many sources one

of them is had when I was in the United States and had awang at that time was talking about Islam like what ano was talking about very wide though not as white as what Ana was talking about in terms of what he termed now madani civilizational but he never attacked the non-muslim the enemy of party islamia then was amno and the institution of religion because of the idea that uh you know the institution of religion were the one that is telling people these People uh you know radical and things like that and they have the

authority to say that so that's why they are the enemy of partti Islam Malaysia so past was fighting these two enemies not the Chinese there no time for Chinese or Indians didn't even configure into their into their into their philosophical framework and that's why I followed him and supported p with money with effort secretly because I was a a government servant you know in UTM until in 201 16 or 2015 they suddenly pass became friends with amno you know I mean najib went to see uh um um Hadi awang when he was in the hospital

I think they struck some s of deal and then suddenly pass saw a different way to power before that it was populist power now he wants the elitist power and suddenly the progressive the So-Cal Progressive mabu and all these people are being kicked out and pass became a Full uh clerical movement like what mahate was warning the people you know we didn't trust mahate we didn't like mahate when if you are Islamic reform mahate is an enemy okay but mahate was right after they kick out all this uh so-called moderates and then pass became a

full-fledged uh cultural Islam but with political uh Power and and join with amno then instead of uh the supremacy of malayu or Malay or race is now the supremacy of Malay Islam and now the supremacy of Islam okay so that became a a a mantra to throw and you can see people even you know uh uh young people who's probably never prayed or so will get on the bandwagon because the call is very strong and also the idea of uh anti-establishment and all that so that's why I know how to introduce the term madani but

his term is not being accepted by mainstream malays because mainstream malays number one follow the usas who couldn't care two sense about Madani uh number two now party Islams of Malaysia is beginning to look upon as a alternate to a government to become an actual government and if Islam is there then it solve all the problem you know that sort of thing uh the idea and and and also that uh uh Ana and and his gang is not really you know seen as religious and then one thing that happened that most people don't understand the

first cohort or the second cohort uh of people who went overseas uh who have already made their money and now are retired these people are the mostly the Pam Islam when they were in United States or UK and but now they are the ones going to Haj going to the MOs and trying to you know uh have salvation and they form the largest group of conservatism and they are the ones uh again the enemy of the madani because you know madani requires you to read and to understand others to accept others it is just to

them who is just learning About Islam by the usas who's teaching children I mean the the the the the curriculum is the same teaching children and teaching 55 60y old is the same you know so that that's how uh Islam doesn't have all this compassion understanding acceptance everything that the madani states it's not in the curriculum nor is it in the Friday sermon that I have checked many many thousands that I have read but is it supposed to be included well it's supposed to be because you the Prime Minister but then I said that in

2018 the power of the cabinet chair is no longer relevant uh uh or is no longer as powerful as the power of populism in social media and the power of the mosque because more people are going to the mosque you know as I said the retirees you know wanting to collect all the points for heaven they will go to the MOs forers and then listen which is supposed to be good but then what is are they getting they Getting this uh you know I call it kindergarten Islam beinging the this this early version of Islam

with the rituals and things like that and so of course this is not going to say okay make sure you read this book or that book or this you know I mean even University so they don't read books so so uh how else are you going to to to handle that and that's where the qu meire that anoir is in he is out of his element if he was the Prime Minister in 19 you know when when he was supposed to be before he was put in prison yep then we might have seen a different

Malaysia but unfortunately the non-malay supported T Dr Mah so don't forget that when you say that this this this mess is created by Malaysia I always remind who supported to Dr mahad in 1999 election and the ones after that true yeah so we're all in this together ladies and gentlemen definitely congratulations But uh Professor I just wanted to touch a bit um when you were talking about pass and the elites power and all that um in the last elections where andw won a pass was uh a component party in PN and all that but the

other parties did not scor that much of seats in comparison to pass why do you feel that there was such a huge rise because I think when the results were out everyone was shocked as to see how did pass actually get so many seats and wins and all that so would you just like explain like how they yes okay before the election all we wanted to do was to kill off amno that's right yep all right but by 7:00 that evening I was calling my friend what the hell is happening to am no you know

they're losing too many seats you know I just want to beat them not decimate them okay because if you decimate them then somebody else is going to take over and that might be bersatu bersatu is the enemy of the People because of their traitorous act in the Sheran move and pass was getting the benefit from there in two ways number one uh the idea of the uh the 1mdb thing uh and the corruption cases that has already been uh been uh uh thrown at and many must understand there were also internal sbles uh in amno

all right that uh you know people like isin Kye jamaludin they all bad mouthing they their their people so uh so so that uh gave their what was the Malay supposed to do all right I mean vote for DP come on so so they of course obviously uh went uh the the the other way uh because uh uh of of of that all right so um I don't know uh how to read this I thought it was Divine Providence when suddenly anoir became pm he was no way he was going to become PM but then

there was also the hopping law that suddenly came into Cola as you know with GPS and the 12 amno thing already be we already under uh either M or Hadi I would bet it Would be Hadi because they have the more number of SE why should they be uh be holding to to to Batu and uh so the surprising thing fell pinang also fell like one cold how how can one cold win please you know I mean uh is not really that good a politician and uh he used to be the head of ideas you

know but now he doesn't have any ideas at all except for uh talking about race religion and all this nonsense about him trying to be bribe and things like that so I hope he got the disciplinary action that he deserve so so so that that is actually what happened but the most incredible thing was the uh people suspect the uh the hiring of the social media yes the social media influences okay so the stupidity I will use the word again the stupidity of the young people of which I disagreed when s sadik put up the

idea of uni 18 I said no it is going to cause trouble because I know what these people have been Learning in school I know what these people the first few years in colleges uh are being exposed to and there is no way that they can make a a very good decision decision they cannot they have not been trade like that and if you are going to do that then you need to actually do things like introducing certain things and allowing the even you won't even allow link kitang to come into the campus to give

a talk I mean forget Li Kang an know Ibrahim was locked out of the of the University mayaya right the closing of the gate and the switching off the electricity please don't forget that so I just smile when they say number 102 I mean you look at the the culture of Academia is totally useless okay uh and I'm in Academia all right and also Board of Governors of public university I will say that it is already dead all right and uh that's why I've have been Advocating to the people to build our own University online

and things like that so that we could create what I call a parallel educ ation system so so that's what happened with the social media with the internal life of amno and that uh pass uh and uh basatu uh got this uh um benefit from from these two so the power of the social media is is completely took Everyone by by surprise including myself I I never I didn't actually see those thing because I'm not on Tik Tok is it yeah I don't use Tik Tok but do you do you plan to do you plan

to be on Tik Tok or Instagram because we know that on YouTube people people love listening to what you have to say um it's just a way of expanding your voice yes I I I I I I realized that you have is smile to help you out of course yeah watching yeah you will reach many many people I can tell you I'm I'm I'm I'm very slow on all this uh I mean I'm I'm an old school academic I've done My writing I've done my books I've done this but then I'm the first academic to

actually have a YouTube with 28,000 subscribers in less than a year I asked many of my my uh uh Professor friends who are Malay look this you know you have to get on the social media to are you know uh influence the the the Malay but these people they don't want to do that why because they don't want uh you know they don't like you know if you are commented by other people and then they don't like the idea of not talking in a big Hall nice Hall with a lot of a fancy people you

know this kind of a ceremonial thing and they always want to be appointed by disappointed by that you know this kind of things so there for me knowledge is knowledge uh you have to see the the best medium and the best way to explain that's how I understand knowledge and in Islam if you keep knowledge within a certain circle you will be answerable to God because he Says well you only just talking among yourself in order to you know uh uh make yourself uh a better reputation but not actually doing good to to to the

people and to the community yeah and also if you were to give a talk in Auditorium what is the purpose of it is also to reach the people which is the same same thing that you're doing if you are were to air it on social media which is to reach the people no not the same with the professors because they they want the ministers to be there you know and I heard uh there's a public university when they give this major lecture the minister is there but there are no questions you're not allowed to ask

question they not allowed to ask questions okay so uh I said the only way I learn and have become what you see the way that I speak is not just about the readings that I have had and talking to me is not a way of just reaching to people and expressing my view but I'm Learning when the questions come yeah so so many questions come and that is how uh I be begin to look at the answer this way that way and things like that and so uh so this is a very essential part of

learning okay yeah uh Professor there was actually um you did an article this was it this morning you just wrote that article oh very fast and you recorded it also this morning yes yes so yeah there's a rally that is taking place on Sunday it's Sunday next next weekend I think it's Saturday or Sunday 29 Saturday um the rally was hosted by three host and put and um promoted by three influencers titled rakyat against anoir Ibrahim um and then I saw a video on YouTube just now that they were getting persecuted and questioned by some

of the officials so the question would be isn't it their rights to protest and uh what do you think about the whole situation when I first heard about this Uh ratan an um and and um few things uh uh came to my mind the first thing is that why is it called ran an you know in the past when you want to have a rally is rat laan a certain persecution unless you really really really are a bad leader or sorry not bad leader a a cruel leader like Dr mahate Who has the Opera langang

you know and also put uh Anor in prison and things like that so okay that might be something but the guy is only 18 months in not 22 years okay or people like type Mahmud and things like that so uh my thought of the reform movement and the B movement and all that there always about issues it's it's against certain issue yeah or Injustice of this Injustice of that kamisan and all this thing you know why personal to I know that's so so that is the other thing is that when you go against uh uh

the system then it's the whole government Itself okay it should be the whole thing like uh the people were against the barisan national at one time and and that is also another way instead of mentioning issue you mention the whole government because certainly no can be made alone we are not detector ship yeah yeah ano don't have the military and things like that Mah didn't have that he only had money so so money talks and was that na said money is Cash is King okay uh so mahate counted that but mahate title is king or

position is King GLC is King you know that sort of thing so so mahate is like that so you should be rat which consists of GPS no and all these other and dgrs so all these people can why against one particular this one number two who are these people these influencers why why are the influencers doing this and why did they not reach out to NOS like you know bers you know I I don't like bers now okay because it's under fisal who to me is immature trying To show off don't know what he's doing

yeah sorry to be a bit hard but I think I'm being kind today you know so uh um the way that he's handled it he should be the perfect partner to these people I mean haven't they read the paper he he basically gave F to Anno Ibrahim now going to give lower than F to him all right so why didn't they reach out to to other NOS um you got isma you got so many others why did they take it upon thems so so that the Third thing is that how come they are all Malay

does it mean that the diesel issue and all the issues that mentioned affected only malays are there no podcaster who are non- malays I think I'm I'm in front of another influencer or podcaster who's not a Malay so there are many i' I've I I keep up with some of the uh the podcasters you know when they they put up their their uh their videos and all that so why why did not they have this Wider thing why suddenly this three malays and finally also who are these people to talk about Injustice and Pang what

are their uh background I mean were they NOS before were they fighting suddenly out of nowhere these three people come up and just uh what I call J UB you know saying this and saying that and and and things like that now finally you said about the police questioning as far as I understand the police is that if you have it in a in a in a in a in a closed environment like a hall I don't think that's a you need a permit for that you know because it is away from the public and

the traffic and things like that it's only when you are outside like you want to have a kanduri you have to have all this permission because of the traffic uh is there issue of traffic what about the garbage what about this uh citizens around you the business are there uh people going to be hurt uh in terms of this and and and all That and and so you need to to submit a notice to the police so if you just announce on social media hey we're going to go and I mean the police has to

do their job because you didn't put up their I don't know whether they put up the application or not I'm just saying that maybe they did not and so the police had to go and now they go say such thing like harassed you know it's it's uh it's the police who just asking you what you are doing you know when and all that and and uh who knows they they probably want to make sure that it happens in a very peaceful manner that that's that's how it is so so so that's where I stand on

that okay um yeah so earlier we spoke about anoir so yeah let's let's talk about the current government Professor what are your thoughts on the current government in relations to preserving Unity uh as Malaysians and it's to try and elevate it and working as with individual Parties as the ruling government because that's not been seen in Malaysia before okay so I think the the Enemy at the moment for me on the one side is the is the malays who are being uh um put up a narrative of Islam as this uh being under threat but

on the other hand also the bigger enemy perhaps even uh than the National and people like AK Sal or Hadi Aang is the non Malay itself the government has already put out the idea of propan in terms of the concept of madani but malays are making jokes of it and non-m are making even better jokes of it okay so the malays for them it is theas that has the authority not intellectuals or professionals who can talk talk about religion like Ana and and and and the people in abim and but what is the excuse of

the nonay they look at it and say oh so you want to out islamize so there's more Islam so more Islam means more problem If some Islam problem more Islam is more problem I wrote in an article I said Islam can only beat Islam all right there is no other way some people say we must go back to the uh 1970 I said forget it that Carriage has gone all right it it's no longer going to be uh like that G25 is from that generation they cannot talk about Islam because they are from the pre-islamic

reform movement so you need an Islam that is uh uh in a wider perspective and the ones that I have been learning is that and that is what the term madani is and unless and until you understand the difference between madani Islam institution Islam political Islam and cultural Islam then you don't know what you are fighting and that's where the uh non-malays are actually helping the destruction of Malaysia uh uh because of their um what we call uh self-inflicted ignorance they don't want to learn about Islam for them why should we learn you Know we

already have the Constitution you know we should just go back to it it's not as easy is that you know you have this whole group of people who understands Islam in one way and this person know Ibrahim trying to change the malays to a certain way that is a bit more a lot more open and and accepting and yet you are the one attacking the Prime Minister giving him F and and and and calling him you know so many kinds of names the only savior that you have is in this man I don't want to

come not very strong as if I'm supporting ano I'll just ask the question if ano dies tomorrow who who who are you going to uh want to be the the Prime Minister would you like that's a good question you know you know so so so that that is a so while he's still alive give him a chance read Asian Renaissance read the madani and uh um uh give it a give it a chance because the concept of more Islam it's not about More Islam it's a different uh uh you know perspective of Islam uh that

is more uh intellectual which is not reaching the Malay because the Malay are taught in the unintellectual there Malay the way they learn Islam is through rituals rituals first intellectual last okay ritual first uh uh values sometimes uh intellectual no also can you know is is that's how it is not like other religion where you say you didn't understand because you had to learn about this religion before you commit to that religion isn't that right so in Islam a country where the culture is already set in Tradition that's not the way the way is tradition

and tradition if it says okay you just follow tradition and then you are free to think but no they they they they will not have that because they are given more and more power and and and that becomes a huge uh issue by itself so uh Professor could you summarize a a solution cuz I I know you're want to whenever you criticize you have a prepared solution as well to this uh well uh with regards to um the idea of unity or well ass say it in many public speeches now I say we don't have

to have Unity okay Unity uh even husband and wife to never have Unity okay you married 40 years you don't have Unity what do you mean by unity some people have so many different versions of it for me what is important is that you honor the other person uh what I call Accord dignity able to accept different views and humble enough to think that your faith or your religion uh and your understanding of God is not really really enough uh you know to to actually um complete yourself now that's very dangerous thing to say okay

all right but that's that's how it is in Academia in Academia if you say things like oh I Know everything and then don't go to this so-call professor okay in Academia the higher you go into knowledge The Wider you do not know so the best professors are the ones who do not know okay if the one professor says Y is this only this that the useless Professor because he hasn't gone higher enough to see the borders of knowledge so with that uh idea then uh we uh in our society we need to learn uh for

ourself to uh Accord dignity by understanding the other so not only that you need to learn your own history and things like that but you need to learn others and and also to appreciate that and and here the problem is where the non-muslim expect the malays to change the malays expect the non-muslim to change nothing gets done you know so so so that's where I put the problem to the people because we have the ability to change ourself we don't have to wait for The government the the the the days of 19607 tongu those days

are gone you know you could literally be on your own with all the social media with all the internet you could build what I call a parallel world okay where you are in there and then uh okay you still in the real world but you also in your virtual world where people have the same uh opinions as you and and value system and you can sit in the same coffee house without somebody saying you know Halal Haram that sort of thing it's it's a it's a it's something that is doable and so so this is

about uh how we change ourself and my message has always been to change ourself by having the humility uh that we need to learn more about the other as well as how we reinterpret the things that we know like the history that we know the politics that we know we need to to up a level so that we could get out of the old box of Our history and our so-called uh politics so I'm putting the blame on the people why I'm doing that because to change the the institution is is almost uh the way

that I look at it virtually impossible but I have late uh outline certain blueprint or or plan in terms of uh I said in in in one article that when mujahid raah was the uh you know minister of religion I said you need to train 100 usas in places where Islam is in a minority and this 100 usad must do multi-disciplinary uh uh uh subjects so that number one they feel to be the minority number two they are with other people number three they see things differently number four they have a different uh discipline so

when they come back give them the kpi to to speak a different kind of Islam which is the madani Islam in terms of of all the Moss and and the religious classes so to your knowledge right but they didn't do it Are there actually any let's say um like working mutis right that were trained at other countries or what like no none is it because it's uh mandatory to do your training over here or because if you if you look at the curriculum in say University Kaba in Malaysia the curriculum of uh Islam it's it's

basically cast from the tradition and I look at all the subjects you know the subjects are just from the tradition there is no subject like Islam and art you know art the how you look at Art uh Islam and and and civilization Islam and the uh history of other Faith Islam and the concept of uh the different Divinity or something like that to show that Islam must survive in a world of diversity okay not to be in this Tempur so what is happening right now is the curriculum basically puts you in the Coconut shell and

strengthened it but actually you should be putting the curriculum so that you Could meet the world in all its form in all its uncertainty and uncertainty is the thing that builds your soul and your mind but in so in religion uncertainty is the Su and the shitan and the you know the devil and all this sort of thing I think this also be uh interesting for younger a why was the NEP the New Economic Policy put in place in 1971 post May 13 uh what is it and how does it play a part in our

nation's progress today in achieving uh unity and inclusivity as once stated by ton M uh in his vision for 2020 well I won't talk about ton M but uh I I talk about ton Dr Ismael sure the thing that I know uh when I read what he said when the uh the Dasa economy baru was uh okay number one is the Dasa economy baru relevant well you're looking at one product so if you think this product is good then then it was Good okay if you don't think that I'm good then I don't know it

may not be good but I think it's good so uh turn Dr isma said when they asked okay so how long is this going to last he said that uh he said two two two ways he said number one he said the time I do not want to say how much time but I will live up to the Malay he said I will we leave it up to the malays because he thought that when the malays are educated and they feel that to have this kind of uh affirmative action is very embarrassing to them you

know because that shows that malays cannot be as good as others yeah yeah you know and he said that it is embarrassing for the Malay to have and that is the time they will stop it themselves that's number one the other thing he said was it's like having a handicap in golf he said yes so after you have mastered the golf then what's a Game if you are always having handicap it's no game you know so it's no fun that's what these are the two thing actually that he said I don't play golf so so

D you know uh I cannot relate but but I think many people understand that so the problem here is that somebody is so comfortable with it those when when when educated yeah they educated by degree but they are not educated uh in the soul as well as the real intellectual they just following things became the understanding that uh this is easy for the malays to get all this uh special privileges and things like that and they are the ones who wants to prolong it okay but they did not and so they use the so-called 153

act you know to say that you know the the the the has the power to all these things the Malay rights blah blah blah that sort of thing but if you trace back the Malay of T Dr isma T ABD rman ton Abdul razak is a far superior Malay than the males of the Pres the likes of zahid hamidi the likes of uh uh what the hisam Hussein on the likes of all these people these people are are trying to milk uh something that was never meant uh to be so and so they Justified it

by the idea of the special privileges and now the justification is about religion that Islam must be at the top uh then and only everything will be okay uh so so this thing is going to continue because of a new Narrative of religious just expectation oh dear okay oh yes you you don't know how much trouble we are in uh no um but well whatever it is the the point here is that you need if you want to be good everybody will say that uh in life the the greater the challenges the better uh you

know the person becomes you know there is no there is no uh shortcut to being exceptional great you know very good and things like that there's only uh hard Work of learning and uh meeting challenges when I was uh a professor I was only what um 42 43 that's very young age why because I said I made more mistakes than anybody why because I tried more things than others other people just wait their turn you know but I don't wait I go and try this I try this YouTube I I try writing in the media

this and that this and that even though the university says no we must write Journal I said no that's not what knowledge is about how to change society so that's how I am where I am and if we are very frightened about this uh dark times that we are heading well it is something that is necessary in order for us to uh to reach uh um a different level yeah okay you're very optimistic Professor no I'm not optimistic I'm just using the uh the Practical understanding of how uh all of us who are so-called successful

come to be you see we are Simply too impatient you know we are in the digital age where you can download things so fast Netflix so fast you know this kind of thing so we are so impatient to have this change here yesterday you know you want change changed yesterday well I said uh after 40 years of marriage you know you can't even change your wife you know okay I always say those who are impatient of change are probably not married or probably never had children okay which is the pretty much the younger people yeah

because uh you try to change them last at long last all you have to do is just uh to watch them and be there for them you know that's all that you can do you have to have great uh patience of that and great understanding of of that and most importantly acknowledge that they could be better than you you know that you don't know everything that in one day they might be something that either Compliment you or even be better than you like as an academic the the the mark of an academic is when the

student becomes uh on par or much greater than uh the uh the the teacher okay but we like to say no uh uh you you must never be better than me now in politics that's how is done okay you cannot be better than me because I want to stay there forever till I die okay so that that's different l in Malaysia we do have an existing monarchy do you still think that the monarchi system is relevant today and should it continue to exist that's a necessary question to be asked it's a dangerous question to answer

but but I I think I'm I'm in a position to give a response now before uh uh the the previous suan Abdullah uh was the a I couldn't care two cents about loyalty for simple reason that not that I'm I'm disrespect them which just that they are In a different world than us we are Ordinary People the aid or the help of the Yon a in the uh uh the uh the the choosing of the the Prime Minister and all thing and then and then uh he also correctly acted when the first darurat you know

emergency was called he rejected it but then the second one obviously he couldn't reject because all the for me the useless I use the word and I okay not to edit it the useless civil servant at a high ranking who agreed with the uh muhidin and ammin Ali to actually put out the idea that emergency is needed to to help the pandemic which I knew you under control you know with the existing law you can actually do that but then he had to agree to the emergency and then uh it was proven later they anal

the emergency meaning that he asked it to be debated but they never debated it okay so so he was playing a very Active role and uh in terms of the Bandera P he was also there and uh the greatest uh thing that he had done was the uh asking for the unity government first with uh pakatan haran and muin but muin arrogantly said no because he's got all the so-called SDS but the Aon said no that is against anti- hopping law the man knows his staff and then appointed anoa and asked them to work with

the amno and GPS even though they call these people up I mean that that that is great so for me looking at how politics in this country is like Buddha Buddha politic all right you need a father figure to actually uh step in no one actually wants the Royal royalty to actually interfere in the uh in the uh in the politics of us we created it we must solve it but there times like that where the agong need to play the Father Figure okay fathers are two things now when when you see your children doing

something I mean you Don't really like it but then you really need to give them the leeway but when they cross a certain line then you need to come in okay so so you come in whether they like it or not then you have to come in but that is a rare occasion must be a not a a standard occasion yeah okay cannot be a standard occasion okay so um I now realize the beauty of our system before this I don't really know why we we're having all the system I think there is justification in

the historical precedence of the setting up of the uh of the uh royalty in in in uh in relation to the Constitution but I disagree that uh more uh um certain executive or administrative power to be given now the other thing that people are always questioning about is this pden business for me it's just it's it's something human to give a certain power to some Authority uh to to have the pardon even if your son or your daughter You know facing the the hangman and and who else do you have to turn to and so

with the case of Na for me they attacking the Prime Minister left and right when the sole personality is the AO how difficult is it to understand you like it you don't like it and you say it's not fair it's not I mean that is uh fairness or not fairness if you have a family a lot of things do not seem fair especially if you have daughters you know uh daughters don't really recognize the uh the contribution of fathers until perhaps the father is going to die or something like that you know but the father

will always stand with the daughters okay and and All fathers will stand with their daughters and whatever situation but for the daughters to understand the father I you are lucky if they actually do that I don't think so so so so that is the the situation with the aong and I am most thankful uh for the Constitution or the F uh what would call the the fathers of the nation uh who drafted the Constitution and the aong now I realize that we we should stay with what is being uh uh uh uh framed in the

Constitution Professor so we've talked a lot about the politics and our people in power now here's something in your wheelhouse um academics but I'm sure it's a topic that you might be very maybe kind of bored off already vernacular schools right so the topic has um arised in recent years again um it's now become a Hot Topic so the argument that it causes disunity is usually supported by the fact that children are being segregated from a young age um in these schools and also that is the reason why um many Malaysians are not fluent in

the national language pass Malaysia today what are your thoughts on that I have said many times that uh disunity is not caused by uh language barrier it's Caused by people who have self-interest like the akal issue uh with the stocking you know I mean it's so clear that all you have to do is uh forgive the guy and then and let's move on was clearly an accident you know there was no history of him trying to insult I mean do you need a rock to fall on your head until the a have to help yeah

so later on the Muti after one month of thinking says well there was nothing wrong I mean come on the per Muti is it yeah the per Muti so so uh so so so that is uh caused by people who have been brought up with the idea that uh One race is better or deserve something better than the others Once Upon a Time yes but not in the present or not in perpetuity the other is the concept of religion that one religion is right everybody else is wrong I mean uh that is for children you

know when you talk uh to children it's like that so so for me this Unity is not caused by by by that as I said I did not Like to use the word Unity now I said give uh respect to others okay so with the aspect of vernacular education and the public school system we need to also think that I have already said that the vernacular School need to show two things number one they need to have one other subject in Bahasa Malaysia and I think if they can have uh history SAR in you know

they have a different curriculum for for history they have a bit of a more of a world history rather than the Malaysian history which is extra subject yeah which not extra I mean the presid vernacular School schol uh uh history is is different no they only have one but yes is different than than the curriculum in the public you're talking about private vernacular school or just vernacular no private vernacular school not the not the government I thought I thought that's What you meant no a lot of people yeah but I mean um a lot of

people get confused so it's important to I think it's better to to put the question on the table the private ones okay because that's the one that's being attacked by but I mean for the general I mean those people in certain political party or certain Muslim group attacking they always attacking the private one because the they don't have a problem with the uh because they're following the the curriculum uh no exactly but I think it's also in their best interest if they don't sometimes they don't they forget to clarify that they mean private vernacular you

know what I mean cuz I see in the comments I see how I I know definitely it's the other one because of the different curriculum it's not just the separation yeah so uh for me the vernacular school because talk about Smjk they talk English or they talk Bas Malaysia there's nothing nothing there so the uh the uh uh the vernacular uh schools need to have another subject uh in Bahasa Malaysia because just one single subject is not there I mean I talk to a 10 year old 11 year old they can't speak basa English same

thing with the international School curriculum my my daughter is teaching it and having problem because these people don't have friends who are you know malays and and uh they don't watch Malay cartoons like opin this this sort of thing okay so so we in a terrible State it's not about Unity or disunity you are in Malaysia and the national language is basa Malaysia you need to honor that and you do not just learn it in a in a mechanical way you also need to know some of the of the budhaya and the adab and you

know the culture you know you need you need to have that um the Malay have to Say you know when in Rome sort of thing okay so um in Japan you have to learn the Japanese language in in in uh in Korea you have to learn Korean and not only that you the the the the culture and things like that so you in the sea of uh Islam and Malay so I think a certain knowledge of Islam even though you are not Muslim needs to be there but not very much okay so in the public

school system the the curriculum of Islam is is a bit uh excu now people are complaining that there's so much pan Islam and then very few mathematic and Science and all that you you you complain like that then you you make enemies between Muslim let them have the hours but ask about the content and I've seen the content and and we should actually pay attention to the content in which ma Malik at one time when he was Minister said we must teach more empathy and I've looked at the the books uh from standard one to

Form five uh it's uh it doesn't have pictures of churches it doesn't have pictures of dogs it doesn't have pictures of women without Tong I mean this is total isolation I mean who in the wrote those books of course usas all right let me write the book I can write the book you know or sit in the in the in the jawatan kasasa or the committee that has usas but also people who understands about about the world better than than the usad so so here is the situation of number one has nothing to do with

language but the way you learn history The Narrative of History saying one one group is at fault another group is the hero that sort of thing is is just Less in history I said that you must learn everybody is at fault in May 13 okay and everybody had done their job in building Malaysia that's what the history should say but uh you know you have a different kind of History being taught and then uh the idea of teaching Morals and and religion needs again to be revamped in order to accept the idea of diversity accept

not tolerate now how do you do that of course the usas cannot do it then you have to have some person with a doctoral in philosophy about comparative religion to actually draft the thing yourself yeah so uh so that's uh that's how I think uh we should move forward okay then then uh perhaps uh the foundation then can be laid then okay um yeah Professor um a common argument whenever boomi privileges are discussed is this is T malayu and non buies are the patang are we actually and if so what difference should that make in

our right as okay I'm going to say something that I have never said before in any writing or podcast okay which is something that the Malays need to think very seriously when you use the word patang and I'm going to use Islam because Islam is what the Malay hold higher than Malaysia and even uh higher than malayu what What did the what is the example now in the practice of Islam by the prophet Muhammad the prophet Muhammad slowly eliminated the concept of slavery okay slavery in uh in the Arab uh uh culture right now before

the prophet uh receive the Revelation if you were a woman slave Okay then if you own the woman then you can have sexual relations with her cuz she is your property the wife that you marry is a different one okay so your inheritance will go to your wife not to the women slave that you have sexual relation now when that slave woman give birth to a child The child is still a slave and has no right to the property whatsoever what did the prophet do the prophet said when a child is born from the slave

of which you have already mix the child then has the same status as your child of the wife that you have so same thing happen when you go out to war you have a wife here but then you go out to War 3 years only then you come back so you marry or what they call the the the uh uh the the properties or the War uh the war booty which includes also the women oh yes oh yes that is how I mean life I mean other people just rape and kill Islam won't allow it

you have to take care you know you have to take care and of course these people cannot be the same as your wife that you left all right but the children or the born from that uh cannot be considered uh uh a slave anymore they have a right upon property so same thing With the So-Cal patang when this So-Cal patang in one sense coming from all over the China and India and all that okay they patang but then when they have the children you cannot call them patang the never called the slave the the the

the children of the slaves as uh different so if you are going to follow the prophet's example then you should never call uh the children of the yeah the Immigrant or the patang as patang this is insulting okay politically also that is not right I mean you already serve this country you were born you know you and then uh you fought for this country right everybody like the kampong China has sacrificed even though some people say this is not Heritage no that is Heritage of Malaya okay uh and so so so so that is something

that we need to uh to say and and I think no one has used the example of the Prophet that I said no one has Said that definitely never heard that before defin so if your video comes out I'm not sure how people are going to take but that is a fact yeah I know this would be definitely very clear okay so I'm saying that uh you should look at how the prophet had eliminated slavery and this is how I think we should no longer consider this idea of pan that's number one number two I

I was told by my my parent that uh uh my family members are from patani I mean this is about less than 200 years ago yes Thailand is it uh yeah Pani in Thailand Once Upon a Time okay okay they want to so number two my wife uh is from minang Min Indonesia minang yeah I think na is Buist yeah so you you hit anybody they're from somewhere they open okay so we are similarly with the United States full of yeah okay they're from Norway Sweden Germany and and and all that that that the second

thing the third thing is That if you if you watch a video I I watch this fascinating video of uh in 10 minutes it shows 40,000 years of uh Malay Peninsula and the and the in and the kingdoms yeah okay and it's in 10 minutes it shows the changes and all that and and you can see that uh that a lot of this clan and what we know per they are the Lanas Suka part of the Thailand Empire and then we are also part of the SRI via the MAA pahit and all this these are

the mix so who is the P that's number three number four there is this guy who's known as the par man who's 10,000 years old somewhere in the cave which cave was it definitely per man man uh do you want to ask him whether he's a Muslim or a Malay or not why don't you go and ask him because it's important right yeah so who was the first uh uh sist then the or asle and this so if you establishes the fact that Somebody else was here before you then uh then you can see that

there also number six the idea of Malay who's Malay Malay only existed I think three 400 the the term itself um and then it was constitutionalized by saying uh Malay is Islam must be Islam and now I I heard that my my uh uh ton Juan junidi who the you know the young Sak a lot of this Malay from Ian and when they became Muslim they M Malay you know the Mas Malay so they became Malay but they speak a different language than than than what we speak of so so here is the definition of

uh race um created by by people okay I said that in order to solve all this nonsense about racial Supremacy we should do a away with saying that you are of Malay race Indian race but you should be B negative race or or or or or a race according to your blood type Because that is more logical you come from India but your blood type is the same as mine we can be friends because I'm going to depend on your blood def okay so so so it's a a construct created by some people uh who

has a certain agenda all right and and and that's how as an academic I understand all knowledge uh interpretations and constructs built for a certain purpose and the task of the academic to is to go deep beneath that deconstruct it then look at the problem that we are facing now and reconstruct it in another way but if you have a professor who keep hogging on the the construct that's created by by the past and not wanting to to actually deconstruct it then then then then that's a lousy Professor also the patang argument is usually supported

by it's like sort of a date date argument which is this is Tana malayu this is Malaysia Merle so it's Kind of a very de argument usually that's accidental I mean we could have called something else when we joined sarawa as a nation sabba as a another nation and and these two and I I wrote there and said there something wrong with our flag okay because our flag is a uh all the stripes are supposed to be the the so-called States the state when in fact sa and S are not they are nations in their

own right partner Nation okay so I didn't know that yeah so so the the the stars are also 13 of them I think yeah yeah every one is the same cannot be the same so you need to have the the the spike two spikes different you know because they are uh three Spike the sanong no so so sabba I mean per all this clant is the same but sabba and SAR will have to be different or their strip have to be a bit fatter you know something like that so you need to change the flag

right would you say joho was a partnering Country uh I don't know uh the history of it there's something written uh in the in in the by uh uh by some part somebody I I don't know enough about about about joho's history there are two sides to the story one says no uh but the TMJ say yes but then who's not going to argue with him you know so might as well don't say it you know if you cannot argue in the academic then don't present okay uh but apparently there are lectures given without question

so very strange all right okay uh Professor last uh two questions I think You' been talking very long oh just just curious right have you ever been um like offered to do a debate sorry have you ever been offered to do a debate or anyone challenged you before uh no no no something that you will be interested in no they always say behind my back yeah you know they love to write things what do you know you're just a professor of architecture come you you'll be open to A debate depend on the topic I mean

this economy get it I'm not I would know a thing about it but it's religion it's education I would not like to call it a debate this is a wrong concept to use we say a a a discourse a discourse or a conversation so that you have uh uh different perspective of things debate ensues the idea of somebody must be right and somebody must be wrong you know or somebody must win somebody must lose okay I don't agree with the idea of competition in in in getting knowledge or you know in any school system you

get number one number two you know you the ranking this you know I I I I I think this is a silly way this is how you train slaves the best slaves do certain way we are not slaves you know going into knowledge uh your experience in life and the books that you read the reflection that you had the engagement that you had all will determine so if you are somebody else who doesn't do Those thing then uh that is your knowledge uh in in that sense so it's a it's a conversation okay it's not

uh not the idea of somebody winning or somebody losing that's terrible okay um So based on my observation right whenever Li liberalism is talked about it's instantly rejected and looked down upon by many Malaysian Muslims but I do understand liberalism is a very broad term can Muslims and liberalism coexist well one one problem uh with uh our situation in this country is the use of uh words that um are understood differently and therefore causes uh this this conflict don't use the word don't use this word you know um the idea of liberalism in one sense

is uh looking at uh a certain body of knowledge in different way which is supposed to be okay in the academic realm you have to do that if you're doing PhD you don't do that and Something's wrong with you okay now the idea of liberalism also dictates um uh the idea of questioning everything and then uh living a life that is uh um free of what is called religion and all this so that you can come to maybe at the end of the day you come back to that religion you know but the other day

you could also come back with another interpretation or you could basically reject it altoe now for me being human what's wrong with having all that but here when you are in front of institution okay institution of Islam they are created in a certain manner so now I suspect they are protecting their existence because if you allow the thinking then they are irrelevant all right if you want to be relevant uh then you have to be given the authority to say you cannot think like this and you cannot think like that I mean for me I'm

not trying to demolish institution I uphold the institution okay I uphold the Muti but I don't necessarily would agree with him okay because I know that the has different experience in his life though he has a certain knowledge that I acknowledge to be deep but I understand knowledge understanding as the combination of the two so if you are lacking in certain experiences then I reserve the right not to actually agree with you and uh in Islam also who said that I should agree with you all the time Islam doesn't say that okay Islam does doesn't

Advocate the idea of a one-way relation meaning you say this then I will have to uh submit myself to that only with the prophet Muhammad even then you can still ask him there are many incidences where the Prophet ask but the problem here is that the idea of creating a narrative that this institution Replaces the prophet which is not there in Islam and that's what the Islamic reform was trying to to do I think most people so think right let's say I think Muslims or non-muslims we have this idea of um whatever the prophet said

you're not allowed to question as well I think in other religion the same and where the institutions of Christianity institutions of Buddhism and all that some of them are very hard on certain thing I won't want don't want to comment because I don't know much about it but I do know it's not a a Muslim Problem by itself uh de Chopra once said that the problem of the world is of conflict is religion but it's not about religion it's the institution of religion if the institution of religion understands their their their responsibility of being the

guardian of knowledge but they must also understand and this is the problem of the appointment of the Muti if you appoint the Muti who's only in a Certain line of of of of of of uh of education and have no respect of other knowledge and don't understand the the idea of spirituality as well as history and knowledge and and tradition and all this thing needs a more Dynamic uh uh interpretation of mind uh then you can see the statement of the uh of the Muti of Singapore on the Palestinian issue where he prayed for those

who were both for the Israel who are who had died and also for the Palestinian and also wanting to forge a better relation I mean here in Malaysia you will be you know unheard of and taken out so so why is that Muti saying that okay uh because he has a different experience he has a different context and so no knowledge must be you know etched in stone okay only the Quran is Etch in stone but anything that humans use the Quran always is an interpretation and when it is an interpretation we can debate about

it And we have but debate in a in a in a good sense not not in a bad sense of trying to uh put the other party to shame or to embarrassment or to to ridicule this is the law or the culture that was laid out by the prophet and also I think a universal uh ideas of discourse what I feel personally is that a lot of people in Malaysia they they don't have that mindset where you should be humans first and then only comes religion that's what I personally feel uh what's your opinion on

it yes yes I agree with you because I have said that uh you see this this is the problem where there is no one who's going to create a curriculum of the idea of accepting diversity of thought in religion because they don't know how I see you all start with the idea of look our blood is red and we can exchange blood with each other whether you are Muslim or Christian or Buddhist Something God has already created all right you start with that and then the idea of changing organs now you have the experiment where

the closest heart transplant is the pig the pig's heart is the closest to the human heart oh wow it's strange yes it is I did not know that yes it's there already been experiment and somebody already has as a pig's heart and I I I'm not sure how someone is a pig heart is living yes it is the pig's heart not the chimp's heart the pig's heart okay according to science wow okay so so so that's being human then I said that uh uh socially um okay um I I I have my own definition of

what I call rat you know or the Malaysian I said a Malayan is supposed to be a person okay who is proud of his or her own uh race religion Heritage and culture but he or she must also view the religion culture and race of others as essential for his or her own Social economic political and spiritual completeness now you want to tell the Muslim that you need the the non-muslims in order to be complete you want to be run out but the point here is that how did the prophet ask the Christian King to

help the the the first immigrant oh he did that he did that that is in the history no one can deny that how is it that his uncle never became a Muslim until he died was the protector of the Prophet without these two the prophet would probably have been killed okay because in the days the tribe is the one that protects you okay so if you kill the prophet then the uncle will make war on the tribe even though he's not with the prophet in terms of believing in Islam but the prophet had to depend

on the Christian King nus uh in order to protect so here is a situation where Where uh for me you need everyone to actually uh complete you and but the Muslim think know you only need Muslims and maybe others also need say the same thing you Christian you need only Christian no it's true it's true I think this is ignorance you know you don't know uh the end of everybody okay if you say that oh we cannot trust this person he's a kafir well but you don't know the end of the person or you must

trust this UL you don't know the end of that person maybe he becomes greedy with power and hunger you don't think that's not not possible yeah but you have people like Zak Knight who says okay will you only you know uh have a different narrative that is either you are with one group or you you you are not with the other like Josh Bush says if you're not with us then you're with them this this this this this thing shouldn't be because because this is not humility humility means you you you you Need everyone I

mean the doctor the the teacher how will you appreciate all these people one of the great definitions of uh Heritage that was given to me was by an architect called hajid da when I ask him what is Malaysian architecture you see you have to start with yourself first what do you mean you have to look at the way that the intersection of our life comes together you are here because because of your parent and your parents are there because of their friends who are of different religion this race and that race and they all come

together into an intersection of where you now present so Heritage of architecture presents those intersection if you demolish those Heritage of old buildings then you demolish the reminder that we were intersecting with each other uh for our growth and prosperity I want to read a quote I think this was really beautiful I think the last 20 30 Minutes uh Professor really tried to hammer on this point now this is a quote from Professor tajudin in one of your writings no man is an island I believe in this and it's an idea that comes across in

a lesson from The Honorable academic and spiritualist Dr sadik fadzil Who proclaimed that the differences among us are the sum total experience that God gives to us so um even from the most simplistic point of you or even if you don't believe in God I think that's really uh makes a lot of lot of sense and uh think think properly and if you think through it yeah I think most of us can resonate with that quote yeah um okay we are at the end of the podcast Professor do you want to um let people know

about your books resetting Malaysia and rethinking Malaysia uh where where can they find those books I think the books uh mostly gra bua the the the Bookshop um with Uncle Chong can Purchase online as well I think yeah you can purchase online I think I think rinking online is already out of print I don't know whether they're going to print some more but if you very interested I'll just provide you with the PDF uh you can get that I um well you can contact me if you desperately in need of that but actually a lot

of my my writings are out there in the in the internet world all you have to do is search free of choice and uh and and then you can get them uh Inu daily it's it's a Open Access right free Malaysia today so but the star you need to have a subscription in order to you know to to open the uh the news and things like that for what what six ring or five ring a month or something I think one month free troll I just signed up so so you can get uh all of

that uh toan Malaysia is already gone uh uh but Borneo post you still also can get uh because it's also Open Access Right and Professor you have a YouTube channels as well right people yes yes yes so my YouTube channel as har say old school just type in professor tudin and then it comes out uh but I'm trying to have other channels which I'm working on a channel that uh that looks at uh 38 values of how to create a successful career for yourself by by creating a different uh uh self or soul in you

meaning the if you can change yourself in terms of your soul uh of how you can uh you can look at the world and other people in a in a better manner that will eventually make you successful in your career you know uh but most people now just concentrate on Career okay but here this one it goes together so so that is something which I'm I'm trying to experiment on aside from the the politics because as I said education we need to to do it yeah uh look forward to that channel uh Professor tajudin thanks

for coming on And thank you for inviting no worries um would love to have you on again perhaps in the future yeah um guys whoever who's listened up to this point if you like the episode um please hit the Subscribe button hit the like button leave a comment thoughts on this episode what you thought about Professor tajudin if you would like to see him on again and um I will see you in the next episode give it up for professor you thank you my homies missing my od my brothers my cies we all went to

but we we knew the ones where we leg rest inace to the all me rest in peace to my brothers rest in peace to my whole team the