The Influencer Marketing Playbook Behind the World's Biggest Brands

influencer marketing has become such like this hot new thing more brands are investing into it but they don't really know what they're doing welcome back to another episode of The Business of talent podcast you can say the rest cuz you always say it I wasn't ready for that you tossing me too much too early no but I am got to be on your T yeah know exactly uh welcome back to the business Talent podcast we break down how Trends across media Talent entertainment are redefining how businesses are built in scale today we have a very

very special guest Isabelle what's happening how are you hi I'm good thanks for having me you really stuck the landing on that one uh Sam that was a very good intro so uh yes we are speaking to Isabelle Lee we're going to break down the The Playbook behind the world's biggest influencer marketing campaigns um she is a season expert in I know this is weird I'm talking about you right next to you right now but we this is what we're going to do a season expert in influencer marketing and social strategy she's LED campaigns for

Spotify Netflix HBO Max Target and more as well as Global influencer campaigns for Spotify and helps build Brands build authentic connections with creators and consumers uh beyond your brand work and big big uh big thing to bring up here especially now she's passionate about Dei you know I actually almost bought a shirt that said Dei hire going to wear it sometimes I feel like a Dei hire too so I think we should get Sam Sam is a GI H yeah that's what people think will eventually happen unfortunately um so today we're going to dive into

running influencer campaigns that actually work avoiding common mistakes and and maximizing Roi Isabelle welcome to the show thank you for having me I'm excited great how you doing how's your week been good busy doing all things Creator marketing she like busy being an influenc marketing man marketing manager you what else what else um but also doing things outside of work so that's important too you know yeah yeah yeah that's great that's great um well for today's episode I think we're excited to take a a Fresh Approach and a little bit of a new spin um

excited to really get tactical around running influencer marketing campaigns super grateful to be able to have you on and know you've done it at the highest of levels across different brand clients so um just kind of going to work through like the the sequence of aligning upon the Strategic Direction and objectives of a campaign through some of the more nuanced elements around identifying what sort of influencers to work with how to approach them how to approach potentially negotiating um how to measure and monitor ouri or success across these campaigns so I'd love before we even

dive in just from your perspective like before you even start a campaign as you're kind of navigating internal Landscapes whether it's on the agency side or the brand side what do you need from the client what do you need from the executive team such that you feel you have a great foundation for you to do what you do best which is really putting together a great strategy a great approach what are some of those kind of key needs that you need foundationally before you even start building out the strategy yeah I think that's a great

question and also it kind of applies for both if you're working on the influencer marketing agency side or in-house which I'm um in now and kind of new to in the past couple years I think really the same principles apply so first is really a lot of times especially in the past few years influencer marketing has become such like this hot new thing more brands are investing into it but they don't really know what they're doing they just say okay there's creators now like let's throw money at it let's do it let you guys figure

it out but I think the first step for me always is getting really clear what are the goals like without the goals and kpis you can't really then set your strategy so it's not just like okay let's get you know an influencer brand trip or like let's get everyone to try this product like throw money at influencers send it to everybody like it's not very strategic so I think going back to the basics at the highest level aligning with your leadership okay we have this product launch or whatever else you want the influencers to promote

what is the actual goal is it the sales driving is it um consideration is it just more brand awareness um cuz a lot of times they might ask for all three of the above um but I think it's hard to do all three in one campaign so there's always like the top of the funnel brand awareness campaigns and then more of like the sales driven campaign so it's kind of like okay which direction do you want to go in we need to be really strategic with how we're spending our dollars so first of all clarifying

those goals and then I can help you figure out you know um types of influencers to work with based off of their data are they more of the brand awareness type of influencers or do they have proven sort of like sales uh routes to go as that influencer they like shopping influencers then we can do more like bottom funnel campaigns so um the strategy can't you can't make a strategy without first understanding the goals and surprisingly a lot of times leadership doesn't have the goals in mind yeah when they give you the money they're like

hey we have this campaign like do it and you're like wait wait hold on let's back up a sec yeah so that's kind of a long answer to First just clarify your goals and make sure that is aligned on from your manager to senior leadership maybe even your CMO if you need to because a lot of times there's so much money being poured into it you really don't want to waste that money without um a clear pathway to where you want to go yeah right right what's an example of a strategy that you worked on

that you thought okay we are sticking the landing with this strategy maybe even before you started during it where you know that moment where you were like all right this is a really good campaign and what were the sort of preconditions to lead to that success oh that's interesting yeah and I would say most of the campaigns I worked on were more more towards the brand awareness um not too much towards like hard sales like maybe like um consideration with like driving subscriptions but like most of the stuff I've done is brand awareness so I

can speak to that a little more yeah do you think brand awareness is the best way to use influencer marketing right now or do you or do you think you know when they come to you with these goals do you have ever have a suggestion or is it always based on whatever the company wants to accomplish yeah I think it depends uh what the product or services and then let me think about that um I I think there's use cases for both for both brand awareness campaigns and the sales-driven campaigns but you have to be

realistic for either or like if you want either or you just have to be realistic about it right so if you're like a new completely new consumer brand and you want to drive sales with your first influencer campaign I think there's more brand awareness to be done first oh you know cuz no one's really going to buy your product they don't know what it is sort of sort of depends on where the company is and their life cycle for what could work the best for that company ex exactly yeah yeah yeah um cuz a lot

of times like if you're literally a again like if you're a brand new not this brand but a coconut water and you're trying to compete with all the other brands like why would someone Sam looked at this Sam weing nothing they pay if you're like in a really competitive space right like no one knows who you are so before they can trust the influencer to buy the the product you're going to want to do more of a brand awareness campaign first right yeah so I hope that answer your question but yeah yeah I think there

was a question before that that I didn't yeah like a successful strategy that you've seen come together that you were a part of oh okay yeah um I would maybe it talk more for like brand awareness slash uh consideration campaign I actually helped with um HBO Max's always on influencer program when they first launched so that was like again they it's like a brand new service but they're not a brand new brand um so that's interesting so with that it's promoting that um they have this new streaming service with HBO HBO Max um so with

that I think we started to see a lot of success by working with a lot of different niches of creators so not just sticking to like entertainment people who can who have previously promoted like Netflix or something like you're really going after family influencers who promote family titles on H you can work with um different niches that speak to all the titles that they have on the streaming platform um and we measured that through like months over months over months of like an alwayson sort of influencer program um so that was really interesting CU I

think you take learnings based on every month and people that you work with um what typee of content Works what platforms work um and just sort of keep iterating from there so I would imagine the kpis for that type of campaign are more so like Impressions and Views than like direct sales like how many people are literally seeing this yeah so I think the first sort of kpi we had was more like the views top of line Impressions but also um we had like link clicks so that's something that we used a lot in influencer

marketing as well um how many people are clicking into like an Instagram story link or like a link in BIO that's important then that's where you're just really driving people to start signing up for the platform so whether they sign up or not that might not be as important but did they click and did they maybe like using a coupon code or something um or they even looking at like considering signing up that's also important at the beginning of launching um the service right wow it's really cool that's awesome cool so I think those are

great examples and love to that you really emphasized the importance of like aligning on key objectives with different stakeholders just to make sure both from like helping ensure that the strategy you develop is going to map back to their goals and accomplish them as well as just level set expectations so people don't have the kind of wrong expectation surrounding a campaign yeah now that kind of as we're walking through this like journey of building out the the great influencer marketing campaign what is this kind of like strategy project planning phase look like to you what

are some of the different things that you're working to align on before you actually shift more into like Outreach and execution mode to different influencers MH yeah I say the next step after you line on your goals is really thinking through the creative and what types of content and what platforms you want to activate on for the campaign um so a lot of times like I don't like just doing really straightforward influencer content like I like to think of new Concepts that might not have been done before um or maybe brainstorming with actual creators that

we might want to work with like hey what's something interesting we can do for a campaign um so really brainstorming with my team internally um or again with creators if I have that relationship with them like what are some ideas we can do for the concepts that pertain to this campaign um and then once you have like a good slate of those again you have to pitch it internally you have to sell those ideas into your internal teams um and that's sort of the next step is like what's the actual creative idea that's going to

cut through um rather than just like okay we're going to send this new blush to influencers and they're going to do a review you're like okay well that's been done a lot so like how can we push that like a step further can we do something more interesting with the gifting itself or is there um sort of video format that we're asking from the Creator that might be a little bit more interesting than their like typical sponsored content makes sense one interesting thing you brought up too and I love that fact that you alluded to

involving different creators in the process of brainstorming because oftentimes it's interesting influencer marketers or companies that are doing marketing might pay somebody and give them such a clear precise brief that's sucked any level of Soul or authentic alignment that's actually going to engage and activate Their audience and Community yeah I'm curious how you kind of navigate that I'm sure certain projects kind of is case-by case basis but as you're thinking through creative how much of it is very prescriptive as it pertains to hey ex Creator this is exactly what we want versus verus hey these

are some of our goals key value prop or messaging items that are important like what do you think would be best for your audience yeah I like to keep things as Loose as possible so sometimes if I'm working on a very specific product launch for like let's say a tech company is launching a new um product feature on an app or something we might need to be a little more prescriptive with how the influencer talks about the specific steps so in those cases you might have to be more prescriptive but you still want to leave

room for them to like add their own personal storytelling and stuff um and other times you can leave it really loose especially if it's like um maybe you're sending them a product to try out you can really go crazy with that so I tend to advise clients to go more on the loose brief side that scares some people I think so like well I want them to make sure they say all these key points but has to be organic though or El it's not going to work anyway exactly I'm like you know if they stick

to those five 10 bullet points like actually no one's going to watch it it's not going to the algorithm so really explaining to I guess my higher ofs like we have to keep it open otherwise like the influencer is going to feel really restricted it's going to come through in the content that they feel restricted and then the audience isn't really going to resonate with it either yeah speaking of mistakes um what do you think is the biggest mistake Brands make when they reach out to influencers and want to work with influencers and do you

have any examples whether or not you've worked on those campaigns yeah I I think it's lit exactly what we were just talking about they're very overly prescriptive and it's like they almost are providing influencers a script um I've seen this with certain clients I'm not going to name them of course um name let's call them right um I've seen this happen and I think I kind of have to handhold them be like okay what are the actual one to two key points that you want to get through and let's let's keep that in but like

leave more room for the influencer to you know weave their own style in there um I think when you see content that's just scripted like you you know what that looks like and you just scroll or you're just like whatever this person got paid and I don't think they actually use this product or something you're like then why would I use this product if I feel like they were just paid to do it but they don't have a passion behind it yeah sometimes I'll be watching Tik Tok and they put ads pretty well into the

into the feed and then 30 seconds and I'll notice that something is an ad that's a good ad I I didn't notice immediately I'm like watching it consuming the content like oh [ __ ] they got me I keep scrolling that's a good ad you know yeah yeah and I think a lot of times too like what I like to do um from the brand side is like when I'm looking at creators do they already have an existing content series that I can just sponsor an episode of or something you know like uh are they

um I don't know doing their makeup on the train every Friday or something I'm just making that up but is that something they do every Friday and if I'm working with a beauty company like hey why don't we sponsor next Friday's post so you're like really getting to know these creat yeah yeah you have to you have to that's really cool and I personally CU I work actually a lot on the like Talent marketing side less like creators more like musicians that we are honestly kind of running a lot of their social content from with

my agency Knox and we're always pushing the importance of like creating some level of like episodic series from my perspective too it's like that actually over time not only can help grow your brand but does become a very natural point of inclusion that's way less invasive for potential Brands I'm curious if that's something you've seen actually more in recent Years cuz I know like podcasts aren't necessarily anything new but there's a lot I mean you now even have like media companies that revolve solely around like short form content series and creators that have episodic content

series is that something that like you feel in the past couple years has become a uh an area where you actively look to deploy more funds yeah for sure I think I I personally look for that um if a creator has their own series it makes it so much easier I think one to pitch them to to my bosses to work with them like hey they have this series and like we can just plug ourselves in um so I think that's definitely been something that I look for and I would encourage creators to like like

like you are to do more of that if it makes sense for them yeah you're doing a good job Sam yeah you doing a good job you're pointing them in the right direction say what um you you you talked about knowing influencers pretty well what is that relationship right like um knowing them and tagging them into these campaigns and then two other than the the money that you're getting for the campaign is there any other benefit to influencers do you ever try to make it so the influencer can somehow get some creative output from the

collaboration or is it mainly transactional uh yeah to answer your first question I think knowing influencers and sort of their what they do it's important even if you didn't know them before you worked with them on that campaign if that makes sense like I might have my own sort of roster of people I've worked with before through all my different clients and stuff and I sort of know their content but it's important for me and other marketers to always be open to other niches or to new creators that are coming up and just be really

open to that um and before you sign before you sign people on and brief them into campaigns just like taking 10 minutes to look through their pages and like understanding what would work best for the campaign um so you know I I don't know every single Creator out there but if I'm about to work with them like I would you know make sure I take that time to actually uh understand how this campaign fits into their page as well so it's not just like I'm paying you to promote something but like it makes sense for

everybody yeah um and to answer sorry can you repeat the second question how do you sort of avoid these campaigns from com becoming transactional or seeming transactional and then um is there ever and this obviously could be something that's difficult to accomplish but is there ever a situation where the collaboration actually contributes to the influencers creative output got you okay yeah um so I think number one making sure it doesn't seem transactional would be um literally what I just said like making sure that the brand knows who this influencer is and like making sure the

creative is fluid and open enough so that it makes sense on their page as well um and I think another thing that's interesting that I've been seeing Brands tap into more at least the brands I've been working with the past couple years um is outside of just the social content how can we work with them for the overall campaign am I tapping them in for like the billboard that we're running in Times Square am I tapping them in for or like the paid media assets that we're running across other social and digital um are we

having them host events um or doing like a little talk or something like what are other avenues outside of the digital content that we can use them for and then do we tap them in for uh future like events that we're hosting like how we have them come to the office so I feel like just building that overall long-term relationship with them is really important as well ni she kind she kind of roasted me in the beginning of that one she said she said I mean that's literally what I just said oh no I was

like damn oh [ __ ] that's not what I oh got me I saw you smirk you smirk at she said marketer you also got to be a [Music] Savage I was like you right she did say that I was like why why that I shouldn't asked that no that's um that that is funny one I'm curious about the influencer Creator selection process and I think music and I know we all had some overlap Within the Music Industry and and passion um and experience there in music if you look at the evolution of like anr

too like anr used to be very like n like anr for people not music industry artists repertoire largely responsible for like identifying and signing the next artist or connecting artists with writers to help create great music and and develop and and recruit great artists um back in the day it was all like somebody's got the ear they go to a random little Dive Bar find next town or find people through their Network where they get great referrals or recommendations or kind of co-signs from other people it's not dead there still is that kind of like

tasteful Network driven like anr approach but then you also have like the ridiculous like analytic Suite where all these different labels have tools that are monitoring okay wow this sound has uh 500% increase in the past three days when it comes to ugc creates around this sound who is this artist next thing you know you got like 15 label an anrs all hdden up the same artist yeah we thought we allord we all do that one so I'm curious Dominique fight it's like everybody was in Dominique fight it's like bro some when I used to

work at the management company I worked for um one of the people that worked there went to a Dominique fik show and just saw mad anr as an audience it's like like mainly anr justr yeah yeah bro but anyway I'll let you continue but that's exactly who I thought at first he is he is fire though but still so I guess what I'm I'm curious about is how do you approach finding the right creators for the right campaigns both on the kind of like tasteful side of you just kind of using your own taste as

well as like what software and what tools what platforms are you using to help like streamline these processes as inevitably especially for some of these bigger Brands it's like you need to source and recruit a lot of different potential creators yeah yeah and I will say I guess I'll start with some of the software stuff I actually don't love a lot of the influencer software for um sourcing I like it to look at data once I already sourced people on my own or have done like a casting call through like agency contacts that I have

and stuff but a lot of the influencer software it's just the results aren't great when you're searching for people I don't know what it is I don't think anyone's really cracked the code on like the influencer search Within These software programs but they are good for like looking at data on the back end um so I'll start by saying that um and I think going back to our like Dei convo it's really important for me personally and I try to encourage like agencies that I work with um now that I'm on brand side when they're

doing most of the search now like please make sure you're sourcing from diverse agencies like please make sure that's something that you're considering when you're look when you're making lists because it's so easy to go into one of these influencer software programs look up okay I need lifestyle influencers and it's kind of all the same type of influencer that they cool so I think taking the time to do manual searches is really important like really diving into the niches that you want to um activate with um getting to know that space who are who are

like the top players but who are also like the new upand cominging people that could be really interesting to tap into and sort of be first to work with them or like second to work with them or whatever um just making sure we're more Mindful and not just pulling a list of a thousand people that are kind of the same um so manual search is really important I I've literally worked on campaigns where it's like we want to work with Viking influencers and I'm like cool I don't know anything about that but I'm going to

go deep into Tik Tok and look for those people for you and are you just looking are you just searching like Viking hasht I mean we could pick a different example if we want really just loves looking at Bing influencers ISO she's like I've never heard about that open her phone it's only Viking influencers okay I found like this is so funny I found like the thirst trap Viking that's what I that's what I would think Viking influencers are is people making thirst traps Jurassic Vikings like yeah but it's like when you get assignments like

that you can't be scared that like oh I don't know like I don't know sports that well at the end of the day but like I'm confident I have the resources to be Scrappy and like figure it out who who makes sense in that space so it really it does take manual research like you can't count on the software to like know who's actually culturally relevant in the space like they don't really process that information for you like you have to be tapped in you have to be looking at the conversations happening um and really

putting in that time to like get to know the niches that you want to activate in that makes sense and then so when you're actually doing that manual research like are you you start by like searching a keyword in Tik Tok and then from there now you start like what is Could you actually like walk a bit through this like manual research process yeah I have a whole slate of things that I do so um I think Reddit is a great resource that people are starting to use a lot um looking for different niches like

who are the who are like the influencers that are being mentioned in different Reddit sub channels Tik Tok as well hashtags um Google searching for like different press articles too like oh if you're looking for I don't know fashion influencers there's probably articles out there through really cool Publications on like upcoming um fashion creators or maybe there are like writers writing cool articles I can look at who they follow on Instagram so it's a whole Rabbit Hole of different ways to look for interesting people I would say and then the the other thing I do

is reaching out to Creator agencies um management agencies and uh agents to see if they have people who fit my specific criteria that I'm looking for yeah nice and how do you balance macro influencers versus like a fleet of micro influencers and do you ever feel like macro influencers let's say like 5 million followers plus is like it's actually overpriced at that point and you'd be better off getting a hundred people at like a tenth of their followers for the same price wow yeah that's always that is always an interesting question and I think a

question I get a lot when I'm planning campaigns I tend to like to use a mix of both depending on the budget that I have obviously if I only have a 10K budget I can't I can't work with any macros so okay let's figure out how we work with more of the micros the Nanos if you're a newer brand starting out how are we building relationships and optimizing your budget with more of the Nano creators that are then going to come up with you as a brand like that's cool too um but I think for

the macros there are there is value in working with them um again you have to be careful with who you work with like are they actually trusted in what you're trying to sell like is this is what you're trying to sell authentic to what they care about otherwise it won't work but if it's someone that you know I'm going back to coconut water they've talked about coconut water before and you're a coconut water brand and we drink all coconut water not a specific coconut water yeah we drink a specific just so yall know yes unless

somebody wants tock pay us then we drink that coconut water yeah we drink the biggest bitters coconut water I'm going to keep going back to Coconut um but like does it make sense with stuff that they've talked about before like they might not be a big waste of money like maybe like Their audience really trusts them in that category because they've talked about it organically before um so I think it's being mindful of who you work with it's not just tapping into the biggest celebrity at the time or something um but being mindful of what

they actually care about nice right speaking of tactics what do you think is uh a marketing tactic that brands or companies think works that actually is a complete waste of money where you're like no no no no don't do don't do that or you see people doing like oh no don't do that you sort of mentioned it a little earlier like throwing money at the problem but to get more prescriptive like what what are they doing where you're like oh no you [ __ ] it yeah and I think it's not one side fit all

or that's not the right way to put it I don't think people [ __ ] up everywhere all the time you can [ __ ] up anything it just depends how you do it yeah I think the thing now is um not every brand [ __ ] it up but like gifting can be seen as wasteful nowadays and I think especially in today's age like I think because it's been done so many times a lot of consumers are like this is really wasteful like are you just sending packages of like 50 lipsticks to an influencer

and you're not really doing like there's nothing else to the concept you're just gifting it to like random creators so like I think that can be seen as wasteful and then backfiring the brand a little bit same with like Big Brand trips like if there's nothing if there's no like concept really tying it together nicely it can it can feel wasteful and I think that is seen as ton deaf nowadays so I like some of the Beauty Brands who they're very mindful over their gifting like hey they asked the creators to um ch like hey

with your complexion like what type of lipsticks would you want instead of sending you the whole line of this new lipstick line we're going to send you like five that you already picked so I think brands are getting a little better at that but for sure there's still some that they just kind of like send it everywhere and it's really wasteful and it's a waste of money yeah yeah yeah that it brings up another interesting side quest in our conversation side yeah yeah uh gift like free gifting do all sorts of cool stuff bring people

for really cool free experiences hope that they create content versus like paid commitment on them posting content for Their audience do you I mean is most of your work just pure kind of payto playay or is a lot of it also around kind of influencer relationship management cool gifting cool opportunities cuz I know there's it's kind of like two camps within like influencer marketing right yeah yeah there are two camps I've from my roles that I've done I've mostly been in the pay to play but then I've worked really close with and I think this

Falls more in like PR teams nowadays for the more like um quotequote free influencer relationship and content so like inviting them to events or like paying for their concert ticket or something um that I feel like a lot of times falls under PR now which is interesting so I think there's value in both routes again if you're doing the quote unquote free stuff just making sure you're not being wasteful with some of those products you're sending out um making sure you're inviting a very curated list to the events um in hopes that you know it

makes sense for them to actually post about um so there's value in it but um I've fallen more on the like pay to play side yeah yeah nice right cool awesome well I think that's all I have for today well okay I'm curious what is it I was looking at Sam like I'm done but I know he not 18 minutes [Music] can y all day I can y all day um is there a specific influencer collab piece of content you created that just like completely blew up like positively like went Uber viral blew up like

in Mark Speak oh you want to blow up like another context oh that project blew up like [Applause] what put my name next to that um yeah I was really lucky to work on the this past year Spotify rra campaign so I helped with the influencer portion of that the paid influencer portion of that um we worked with plastic Tiara she's a drag queen one of the winners of RuPaul's Drag Race um and we had them reveal their top five artists um but they did it in like a sort of drag Runway concept so it

was super high production um she basically transformed from like I think it was like Tate McCrae Sabrina Carpenter Ariana Grande and then like Charlie XCX Billy ish but like in a drag fun damn that's and it had like so many organic views um I think it can be so boring to just show a screenshot of like here's my top five artists yeah but like when you turn it into this whole production and like people are like oh my God I don't want to use this word the c word but in a nice way yes yes

yes yes yes like yes that is that yes it is and like oh like that was my top artist too and like just encouraging that conversation through a really fun piece of content so that went pretty viral organically that's awesome um and it's one of those things like you might not even need to put paid behind it anymore like it reached the audience it needed to reach without us putting that much money behind it how how did that creative come together cuz that sounds like a super interesting concept yeah we um I think this is

another example of like knowing the creators you're working with so let's say like okay this year we want to work with people who are really culturally relevant like we do have the budget to do that let's go for some of those macros like who are the people there are cool um once we have those five people thinking of really specific concepts for them um instead of just sending them a blanket concept like I'm really thinking about them in mind like let's do this Runway idea because that makes sense for them and then they can come

back with their idea on how they want to execute it and then take it from there cool yeah dop yeah um at one point you mentioned that some of the tools you you don't necessarily have any favorite tools when it comes to like the uh influencer Creator identification but on a lot of kind of the reporting and Analysis side that's where can be really helpful and useful are there any specific software products that you love or that have over the years kind of become like critical or preferred elements of your workflow oh yeah um I

would say Creator IQ is a good one I think they are just really integrated with all the um different social platforms so they have a lot of the data available I think their interface is really great what I really look for is like can I see the numbers clearly when I'm reporting back on the content like I really just need this data so that I can export it and put it nicely in my Google slides to my you know to our stakeholders and stuff so um I think they've been really great there's there's so many

out there I think um if you're an influencer marketer listening to this you can reach out to all these different software and um get demos and see which one works for what what you need yeah yeah sweet do you like the word influencer I don't mind it I feel like there's like this negative connotation to it but I have no issue with it yeah still feels a little weird to me like I it's it's it's interesting I mean it's I'm super big proponent of like influencers influencer marketing yeah I'm just it does seem like in

the past couple years like creator has become more normalized yes it has been and I get that but then people are now fighting between the difference between Creator and influencer and I'm like I feel like everyone's overthinking it a little bit yeah yeah you know what I'm talking about just respond to everybody you know what the [ __ ] I'm talk about like today's Hot Topic what's the difference between Crater I'm like I think we're spending too much time talking about this yeah yeah yeah so both both words work for me yeah yeah yeah all

right now I'm done well seriously though I think this has been um really fun conversation I think there's clearly a lot of experience and intention behind how you try and craft compelling stories create Creator friendly Partnerships that really leverage maybe kind of either a Brand's budget or influence as a mechanism to really empower the creativity behind different creators versus simply seeing it as a transactional marketing campaign so I I think um uh super grateful to have had you on and kind of deconstruct some of the different elements of how you deploy these campaigns well thank

you for having me on this was super fun yeah you have a very holistic view of influencer marketing where you're thinking about like the business how it affects the business how it affects the influencer how it affects how the how the campaign is run like there's so many ways to influence her marketing or Creator marketing that I did not realize was stuff to think about until this conversation which is really interesting well let's do it again I have more to say so and also just so y'all know Isabelle and I know each other cuz we

were Co interns yes so really really seeing the rags of richest story over here we've come a long way so yeah come a very very long way Jordan knows the lore yes I do I do um well thanks for thanks for coming on the podcast we really really appreciate it and it was great also spending time with you oh nice too thank you thank you