Branding & Marketing In The Age Of AI with Seth Godin

I think AI is the biggest change in our world since the invention of electricity a bigger change than the internet um and if you're not using it for half an hour a day you don't understand you should you need to put it on your calendar and go use it what's up brand Builder Stephen Houraghan here on the brand Master podcast and in this episode I'm speaking with the one and only Mr Seth Godin about branding and marketing in the age of AI now Seth is arguably the doubt when it comes to branding and marketing he

certainly had a massive impact on my career and my philosophies as he has had millions of other branders and marketers around the world early on in his career he built and sold some early inter internet marketing companies for literally tens of millions of dollars this is way back in 1998 and since then he's written 21 best sellers in the marketing industry including Classics such as the Purple Cow this is marketing and all marketers are liers to name just a few and I have to say I really really enjoyed our chat today and we dug into

branding and positioning with tension in the Modern Age we spoke about the impact of AI in the marketing industry and how AI is the biggest thing since electricity according to Seth and how professionals and brand builders can stay ahead in the AI age so if you want to learn from uh futurists who literally wrote 21 best sellers of the industry selling tens of millions of copies then don't miss this episode of the brandmaster podcast welcome to the brandmaster podcast show specialize in helping branding professionals and entrepreneurs build Brands using strategy psychology and creative thinking hello

everyone and welcome to the brand Master podcast and I am absolutely delighted ecstatic over over the moon to have the one and only Mr Seth Goen on the show with us today Seth who needs no introduction thank you so much for taking the time to join us today well a pleasure happy to chime in if I can beautiful H now you are uh this is a perfect example of the philosophy that I like which is if you don't ask you don't get I was actually chatting with my team and we were going through who should

we have on the podcast and Seth golden came up and I said no no no don't don't send an email to se Seth Seth will be too busy and then I said you know what just send it just send it he might say yes and uh when the email popped up I was uh I was absolutely delighted so uh well thank you I don't I don't want to start by having an argument with you but I don't uh have much truck with if you don't ask you don't get philos I think it's if you don't

offer you can't make things better and I didn't view showing up on this podcast to chat with you as something you would get or something that you were asking that plenty of people spam me and ask me for ways that I can help them achieve their goals but we're aligned so you made an offer and I thought this is fun to do together so here I am and and I I've watched a ton of your stuff on on the leadup to this and i' I I noticed the philosophical uh you know background to your to

your chats and and uh just going through your bio I noticed that you're your studies were actually in philosophy so I was like ah you know that's why and I was I was I was even tempted to to just throw at the whole marketing and branding stuff and just have a a chat like that because some of some of your uh previous interviews have been uh really really fascinating but as a as a man who lives and breeds marketing you know that we are we are here to serve a specific audience and our specific audience

are brand builders uh marketers brand leaders and they want to know what you think about that side of the the the business so um so I'm going to start with um just a a kind of broad one now I know that you talk a lot about the way people used to speak about advertising and marketing synonymously but marketing is is you know this whole other uh kettle of fish it's it's it's uh you know it's it's way beyond that I speak about branding and marketing in the same kind of way um because I do believe

that branding as it was once taught you know as as a subset of marketing has evolved into this bigger entity what's your take on that and and how do you see the the the balance between the two well you know the people who are listening understand better than almost anybody that a brand is not a logo but we still get stuck on the language like we have a new brand well no you don't have a new brand you have a new logo we're going through a branding exercise well no you're actually going through a logoing

exercise I don't think logos matter and one of my favorite ways to think about this is you know close your eyes for a second and visualize what you think of as a great logo right you got one in mind almost always people will identify one that is actually associated with the brand they admire that very few people pick evil s symbols from World War II even though from a logo point of view they were pretty powerful right but we don't do that and in fact the Starbucks logo is terrible it's just a terrible logo why

would you want a half naked person with bad hair right but we associate it with a brand so branding is I think the act of building a story that's resilient that finds a spot in someone's brain because they want it there that it's a shorthand for the promises that we're making and whether or not we're going to keep them it's a symbol that we've earned trust and so getting your brand right has nothing to do with how you look and feel it has a lot to do with how other people think you look and feel

yeah and that's it like you you hit the nail on the head there is a massive education Gap in the market when it comes to brand and uh we see that more and more because it's so easy now to start a business and you don't need an education in branding or marketing to start a business and you make a lot of assumptions as a newbie entrepreneur and that that's where a lot of the confusion is coming from because you know you got a lot of people speaking about stuff in a certain kind of way when

uh you know as you said you know there there are there are some some differences there that that need to be understood to be able to apply them correctly now I speak a lot about strategy specifically and uh you know when I talk about brand strategy I talk about the likes of positioning storytelling uh brand personality when I so so to me the the strategy of the brand is the method of the brand and then to me marketing which you might argue with me here is the mobilization of that brand so how this method is

mobilized in the market is that how you would separate the really I think it's a really useful way to do it you know think that many of the people who call themselves brand strategists are not that does Oreo the cookie have a brand strategy well they had one a long time ago but now they have brand tacticians they have people who are doing marketing tactics to maintain a brand that had a strategy from a long time ago strategy requires the desire for a change that how are you going to move pieces on the board so

that your share of whatever it is the difference you seek to make the change you're making will go in the direction that you want and if you're not here to make a change happen then the tactics they don't they're not unimportant but when we're going to talk strategy it's about positioning it's about Game Theory and it's about time how will tomorrow be different than today what are you doing today is going to change the dynamic in the marketplace because people have choices and they're not going to pick something because you want them to yeah I

I love that and you know so much of what I learned about uh positioning came from from your work I remember devouring uh uh the Purple Cow and positioning by Al re and Jack trout at the same time and uh for me that's the center point of strategy because positioning is is really the reason that you give the audience to choose your brand over your competitors and really that's why we build a brand is to give those people a reason what what have you seen change in in the let's let's say the art of positioning

since you wrote The Purple Cow because you wrote The Purple Cow quite a while back and the fundamentals don't change but what have you seen have you seen anything change in positioning uh since you've written the book okay so you know trouton Reese's book a very long time ago had a big impact on me the subtitle is the battle for your mind and I think the biggest change is this and having taught positioning to more people than most um positioning is a generous act it is not a battle it is not selfish it is not

about differentiation it is not about gaining something it is about offering people who are busy a clear map of who you are and who you're not if you are not eagerly sending po potential business to your quote competitors then you don't actually have a position basically you're saying we're for everyone and you're everyone and positioning says if you want an $18 chocolate bar that's uh bespoken handmade and ethical that's what we make if you want a Nestle's bar to give out on Halloween that's made with slave labor that's what they make here's their phone number

we don't compete with Nestle they're doing that we do this positioning is this generous act to say if you're looking for this that's what we have but if you're looking for that that's what they have yeah I love that I love that and it look it does turn the table on a little bit and it kind of uh you know it leans into that idea that we're here to serve as well and uh you know if you if you figure it the best way to serve your audience then you know you can you can position

that in a way that will will appeal to them I like to talk uh about positioning in in terms of angles uh angles are or verticals of course you can position uh with your product with features and benefits but there are more creative ways to position and with how busy markets are getting at the moment it's almost a requirement to look to other angles for positioning what are your some of your more creative angles to position from whether it be personality or uh you know associations what what what are some of the more creative angles

that you like to to look at okay so I would say two really useful lessons the first one is this we're all familiar with the XY grid that's used for positioning if you're going to do it right all four quadrants have to be viable meaning you're not allowed to have one of the axes be good stuff bad stuff our competitors make bad stuff we make good stuff they have to be things they were my first ones yeah exactly that's the very tempting thing to do the problem with that is unless you have magical patents or

machines you will not be able to make a thing that is better for everyone all the time that the position that's available to us is oh you might want a luxury handbag we don't make those we make inexpensive handbags those are different things some people might want one some people might want the other you might want a a durable backpack that comes with a lifetime guarantee but you might not care about that you might just want one that's convenient and and cheap right both of those things are valid so that's the first thing pick valid

axes for everybody and the second thing is we talk about features and benefits but most marketers I know still get hung up on the features and the truth of the matter is that we care about the features because we worked really hard to build the features but our customers don't care about the features at all they only care about what the features will get them and what they will get them are benefits and so you know buttonfly jeans that's a feature the benefit is your girlfriend will think you look good in these those are different

things yeah I love that um and and that kind of Segways perfectly into the idea of Storytelling because when we you know you can you can sell a a feature all day but you can you can sell a benefit through a story and and you're one of the biggest advocates for storytelling that I've I've seen but I do see a lot of confusion out there as to what storytelling actually is a lot of people believe that that they should tell the story of the founder you know um who had a dream as a boy and

grew up to do this that and the other and as you said no one no one cares about the founder they care about themselves they care about you know uh what's in for them or or how this story touches them am or aligns with who they are what mistakes are you seeing Brands making in the market with storytelling and you know how can they correct them so the world's expert on storytelling is bernardet jwa uh she's written five bestsellers about it J I wa um she's from Ireland and Australia and she's super like myself exactly

like myself um storytelling is the basic human technology MH and the stories that resonate with us are either about status fear or affiliation one of the three that's all we got and a story is a shorthand that goes to the emotional part of our brain that turns into our story that turns into a story that becomes part of us so an example of a story is um last time I checked 20% of the people in the state of Georgia and the US have Coca-Cola for breakfast and there is isn't an ad campaign it says drink

Coke for breakfast but the story is simple which is my mom fed me Coke for breakfast drinking Coke for breakfast reminds me of my mom being reminded of my mom makes me feel safe that is why people drink Coke for breakfast in Georgia and when they said oh New Coke tastes better they were basically insulting your mom and that's why the whole thing fell apart because they didn't understand there's always a story behind the story yeah yeah I I love how you broke down that so simplistically and really that's that is our role you know

as as brand builders it's it's about you know Simplicity it's about simplification it's it's about making the complex easy to understand and compelling at the same time when you talk about story like that and and really I'm I'm I'm thinking more so from a small business perspective I mean it's applicable to big business as well but what would be some of the more tactical delivery methods of stories like that with all of the channels that we have available to us now um you know how can we break something down like that and and deliver it

tactically uh uh you know to our different channels okay so we're going to shift the tactics let's talk about the wheeler witch for a second okay um in the uh 19 late 1920s early 1930s there were a lot of soda fountains in the United States and it was The Depression um and the people who worked at a sod a fountain we called jerks and so a soda jerk would stand there and make you a milkshaker and ice cream soda and stuff and there were uh big businesses that were selling these things they hired a trainer

named wheeler to help increase sales and it turns out as disgusting as it sounds that one of the things that people would eat in those days was uh an ice cream soda or a milkshake with an a raw egg in it and the raw egg cost a penny or nickel and it gave you your protein for the day and they wanted to make sales of eggs go up because it was a place to make a profit and you could talk about the benefits of an egg and you could talk about the coste effectiveness of an

egg and you could talk about all of the ways that there are features that you should add to shake and instead what wheeler taught the jerks was this when someone orders a soda you say to them one egg or two and it dramatically increased the number of people who put one egg in because the wheeler witch said look most people are taking one or two do you want to be like most people or do you want to be a cheap ass and take none but they didn't use those words they just created a story a

situation where you got to feel like a big spender for a penny and add that raw egg you didn't want to disappoint the jerk and say none one or two were the options so that's a tactic it doesn't work if you're manipulating people they come back tomorrow because the egg made them feel better um but you needed something to get under their skin because they were coming from a place of scarcity and they were believing they couldn't afford an egg yeah and and and that's it really when we're when we're delivering our our uh Our

Brands to the market it's about finding that way to get under their skin and that really comes from you know deep audience research and really understanding you know what they're all about in in this is I want to shift gears into to uh something that you wrote in in this is marketing which is uh something that I love the smallest viable Market um what are some of the most uh effective methods for finding a small the smallest viable Market because as you said you know so many Brands make the mistake of of going out there

certainly small businesses and all they want is business and they're prepared to just say we're for everybody but you know and you know because of that be because they want that business they're they're kind of afraid to close the door to other businesses you know or to to to be brave to fall to to go and find that smallest viable Market what are some of the most effective methods that you use for for for doing that this is a great uh place to focus and uh you left out what I think is the main reason

people don't pick a smaller audience part of it is the greed of saying I want everyone but a big part of it is the fear of if I pick a precise audience and it doesn't work now I'm really on the hook so let's say you make headphones well you most people say I make headphones for anyone with ears and you could say well I make headphones for podcasters you could say I make headphones for podcasters who do video things and want people to notice their headphones so let's say you pick that very speise audience and

they don't buy it now you're on the hook because you're the one who picked the audience you can't say well I'm going to go switch to another audience because you picked the audience but in fact in my experience this is the single most important strategic decision that any brand makes to pick the precise audience Patagonia picked the precise audience Nike picked the precise audience you can get very very big with a very precise audience because over time it shmears and and goes to more people Whole Foods is a great example of that as well right

in my case you know I've written 21 bestsellers and not one of them has reached more than 1% of the US population which means I have z% market share if you round it off and that is fine with me if someone says I didn't like your book I get to say it wasn't for you yeah I love that and you're right like there there is this fear of of going all in and uh of of putting a flag in the ground and saying this is my flag this is where I'm standing because a lot of

uh you know a lot of people building Brands uh are doing it for the first time you know there you know there are many entrepreneurs out there who are you know trying to to turn what they do for a living into a business and it it the concept is counterproductive that they would they would close the door to to all of these other businesses and and just focus on on this vertical but as you said and for me I like I like to talk about relevance the more relevant you can be to to people their

pain points even the way they talk uh you know the the uh the personality that they use you know the the more relevant you can be to that audience the more likely they are to to talk to you rather than the competitor around the corner who has the doors open to to everybody else in in terms of in terms of strategy because there are a lot of executioners out there we I don't know of any other industry where we have so many different verticals so many different Specialists who really work on the same thing but

from a completely different angle from designers to copywriters to social media marketers do you believe that having a baseline understanding of strategy is really important for executioners and and do you believe that will help them in the work okay so either you're working in the system or you're working on the system if you work in the system it would really help if you were seen as the best at what you do so if you are a book cover designer and you make the best book covers you're never going to have to look for work you

don't have to change the publishing system you don't have to change the way people engage with books you are the Executioner the person who knows how to do that really well and if you're like me and you have a limited attention span and you are focused on uh making a change happen it helps to be able to change the system and if you want to change the system you have to understand the system you have to see the system you have to be able to cause uh actions to occur that will change the game and

that's what great brands do once you figure that out you get all this new resilience because there's other things you can focus on there are other tactics available to you so I think those are the two paths one or the other and I don't know very many people who do brand strategy well like people at very big famous companies will reach out to me and say do you know who we should hire to do this and I can think of tons of people who can do tactics but they need someone to tell them what to

do and there aren't there aren't very many people who can show up and actually have a strategy yeah and and that's what I'm finding as well because you have the the you have the the tacticians now on the front lines because they're Freelancers uh and you know small shops and they're asking their clients you know their clients are giving them work and and they're asking questions well why should we do this you know what's the reason behind it and and that's why so many of these tacticians are are turning inwards now uh to work in

the business instead of on the business because they're starting to ask those questions and they're realizing those questions need answering before we do anything and you know that by asking those questions that's where you're getting to the heart of of strategy so yeah look I'm I'm a big proponent for really having the fundamentals of strategy regardless of your your uh your your Tactical work if you're in the realm of branding um but I think that's becoming even more important uh more important now permission marketing uh Seth you wrote the book on it and it's uh

it's something that I'm a a you know I'm a I'm a follower I'm a I'm a believer I'm I'm a preacher of of permission marketing because I find that it's it's a much more intimate place it's it's where I express myself most I know it's where you do as well with your with your your blog and your newsletter and you know you're not on the front lines you know trying to trying to uh get attent you've got their attention already and you've got their permission and then now it's about that relationship building in terms of

where we're going at the moment is there is there anything changing for you in the space of permission marketing or anything around it or do you still feel that this is ultimately the the best place for nurturing your clients okay so narcissis narcissistic shortterm thinking selfish self-absorbed hustling marketers have ruined every medium they've shown up in because they think I just have to get the word out that I have some sort of moral right to spam and steal attention yeah and you know in the time that I will be on this call I will have

gotten a dozen notes asking if people can be on my podcast from people who have never listened to my podcast because I've never once had a guest right but they buy a list and spam a it um it really offends me because it's like peeing in the pool it's not helpful and it ends up making the pool unusable but and for the few who have self-discipline and pull it off permission is gold right that you know it took me decades to build my permission base but there are a million people who read what I write

every day and I don't have to hustle anybody because I get to do work for my readers instead of looking for readers for my work what a privilege and we see this in all these Brands and industries that people say they want to Aspire to be like but they don't want to do the hard work of earning the asset and the asset might not be email it might be a telephone call it might be visiting somebody it might be SMS that's not the question the question is would we miss you if you were gone and

I got to say most people call Brands the answer is no that uh if H hotels disappeared we just stay in a different Hotel oh I I I love the finish of every single sentence that that that you've been putting forward yeah look like in terms of um with with my uh with my list for uh BR Master Academy I'm I'm ruthless with pruning that I've pruned uh you know probably probably over 60,000 people and and I'm I'm still only at 35,000 people but I've got you know 45 to 50% open rates and you know

that's telling me that keep pruning you know because you know the the the ones who are staying there are are the ones who are telling you what they want so you know you can use that for a feedback loop as well and it's going to be your most dialed in feedback loop so you know pruning is is something that's that's really important do you prune your your list at all and with that with your your newsletter so I am not trying to um I've intentionally decom mercial all this kind of work so there's no upside

for me to make my open rate go up I don't know what my you're not a metrics man yeah I mean I used to be I invented email marketing and so we were really metric focused but it wasn't helping my work get better as a Creator so I stopped doing it um the thing that's the thing that's happened with email is there's so much breakage along the way and then Gmail comes along they put my blog in the promo folder my my blog is in a promo and they don't do it for everybody but they

do it often enough to annoy me those people aren't unsubscribing and they're not unopening it they're just not seeing it and then one day months from now it they change it and it comes back I'm like okay great fine if I'm helpful fine if people go looking for it fine but I'm not g to spend my days because you're looking at my entire team it's just me and I don't want to optimize I just want to do my work and I hope people want to share you you're in that position now where you just I'm

not a good example right I think I think your example makes a lot of sense pruning it isn't as important as you being clear about who these people are writing for people who need you to write for them that if you are writing for the right people they'll prune themselves and being clear to yourself about who it's for and what it's more that makes a big difference I love that if you're writing for the right people they'll themselves that's a quote right there um authenticity you like to speak about authenticity and and I've written about

authenticity and it's kind of gotten a bad repap because it's on on the one hand it's like well you know duh it's like it's like saying you know one of our values is integrity there are some Basics that are just you know assumed um why do you feel there is a need for for this this uh sense of authentic it and and what's what are some of the better ways that we can that we can kind of display that in our in our messaging okay so I'm sort of known for being the anti- authenticity person

I'm Pro Integrity person integrity means being in being in and of itself and authenticity is this internet thing of if you feel like being a jerk be a jerk and say I was just being authentic no one wants you to be authentic what we want is for you to be consistent so whether or not you feel like being the best version of yourself we need you to be the best version of yourself because that's what we paid for and so articulate what that is if you're a surgeon if you're a copywriter if you're doing customer

service what would be the best version of you if you are authentically in a bad mood What would be the integral version of you what do people see when you think that no one is looking that is what people care about every time I hear people talk about authenticity I think what they're looking for is an excuse to be difficult or to be a troll I was just being authentic yeah well then go away because I have no interest in you H I want to switch gears into something that is kind of been thrust Upon

Us in the last uh you know um in the last year or so and that is artificial intelligence in branding and marketing how do you see it's going to change the discipline what's branding of marketing going to look like in five years time I know it's to it's it's it's too difficult now to to say 10 years what do you think it's going to be like in in five years time and also how should professionals try to approach it to stay ahead okay I think AI is the biggest change in our world since the invention

of electricity a bigger change than the internet um and if you're not using it for half an hour a day you don't understand you should you need to put it on your calendar and go use it so I put a 40-page business plan into claw. uh the plan had been written by six people over the course of three months it was a gradual incremental thing and I said please read this business plan and highlight the contradictions and paradoxes within and less than 10 seconds later it wrote me a two-page NBA quality memo highlighting things about

it that we needed to go fix um every word that I put out there with my name on it was written by me but if I was starting today that would not be true and uh what AI does today is it replaces competence if you are simply mediocre I can get an AI to do it cheaper and faster than you and that means that the only space left is is to not be simply competent to not simply be what people expect you have to figure out how to do something that AI couldn't do because that's

the only thing worth charging for and when you are doing work that could be done by AI you should have ai do it so you can get back to the work that we need to pay you for and so you know if I'm a company that comes up with brand names oh boy you're in big trouble because I can just I can give AI the right prompt and get 100 brand names faster than you can sit down at your desk m and if you go to k kitl they can design logos and and things that

a logo like instantly in large quantity not the world's best not chip kid quality but one level below that so if you're already one level below chip kid you got a problem so what do you do what do you so for the designer or the brand nameer who's looking at a icon oh no what am I going to do now what would your first Direction uh what would your first instinct be to to evolve and keep your head above water well I think the first thing is I would like to see the certificate that you

have that says we're never going to change the system and you're guaranteed your old job forever because I don't think you have that certificate the job you have didn't exist 40 years ago so why do you think it's G to live forever it's not right and so we got to start by saying you have helped create change and now change is coming after you when the steam shovel came along the ditch diggers didn't say oh this isn't fair they figured out how to operate a steam shovel well the same thing is is true here that

the opportunity for agile smart people to take advantage of AI over the next three years are enormous that there's going to be this huge like you we just gave you 5,000 uh shoemakers and and you're a cobbler and they're going to work all night for you 5,000 of them so hire them and get to work yeah it is that's it like it's it's about it's about learning and embracing and um you know just just using the tools at our disposal and that's all we've ever had um someone in the group asked me how do you

feel about every single uh post now sounding like Seth golden because prompts are out there saying write it like Seth Goden I'm very flattered by this I um there was a five or 10 year period when I was writing my blog when if I wasn't having a great day I would just say to myself well what would Seth do because it's about the consistent thing right that I was visualizing a voice in my head that is the archetype of me but some days I'm not that person authentically I just need to be consistent now computers

can do that so I have to figure out how to write a blog post worth writing that an AI Couldn't Write and you know I had the first blog with AI built into it you at seth. blog you can go ask my blog any question you want and I took a lot of care to make sure it's not saying this is Seth talking it's an AI talking about what my blog was about and what I'm helping people see is being parodied being copied is a compliment and but it also means that the person who's being

complimented has to raise their game MH yeah absolutely Seth I'm not going to keep you too much longer you're at the beginning of your day I'm sure you've got a ton of things to do however and I've got Murray here who's oh you got Murr time yes you gonna introduce Murray or no M Murray's happy the shelter he's been here for five weeks I'm doing my best okay okay beautiful love to hear it um so if if if I had to strip you of your Seth Godin title and uh put you at the head of

an unfunded start up with pretty limited budget what would be the top three things that you do to get that brand on the map okay well the first question is are you seeing to be funded or not if you're seeking to be funded you have to make something that funders want to fund that doesn't mean it's a good business it means it's something funders want to fund not my thing I'm interested in so I'm going to leave that part number two then is I got to build something customers want to buy and to do that

I have to create tension the tension of my life will be better if I listen to this and I'm about to be left behind if I don't and creating tension is something that most people don't seek to do they want to relieve tension they want to say you have a your your back ites here's a back scratcher done all those slots are filled the slots that are left you know what was yeah I'm no fan of Facebook but what was Facebook's pitch how did they grow it was super simple they said to uh unpopular Harvard

men uh people are talking about you behind your back you want to see what they're saying that was the pitch so you had to be confident enough in yourself to say no I don't care everybody else flocked to the thing and then they started talking about women so they started saying to Harvard women people are talking about you behind your back you want to see what they're saying and then you create this tension that can only be solved with forward and connection and then the third piece is the network effect that the most important thing

that the internet did to marketing is simple if you create something that works better when other people are using it we will tell other people the fax machine is a perfect example of this first person who had a fax machine what could they do with it can't send a fax to yourself because you get a busy signal you got to tell your friends to go get a fax machine so you could send them a fax we can create things that work better when we tell tell the others MH yeah I love that philosophy on tension

and it uh it really speaks to the idea that you know you you don't find a position these days you create one and you create one by creating tension and I I I really really love that now I'm I'm going to let you go usually I ask my guests you know what have you got coming up with what's your call to action where can I send people but you know you're just giving back what's what's what's coming up for you at the moment Seth in March we're launching a software tool that hopefully will raise a

billion dollars for charity wow and um it's been a labor labor love it's going very well and people will find out about on my blog when it's ready it'll be fun beautiful so if uh you want to find out about that get on over to Seth blog Seth I really really do appreciate the time it's been an honor and a privilege and I've I I've I made up with this chat so thank you so much thanks Stephen keep making the Rus we'll see by bye want to take a second to show some appreciation I appreciate

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