[Music] hello everyone and welcome to capuccino with HR my name is Rudy B and after 40 years in business I'm 100% sure that the success of companies is directly related to The Passion of the people working for these companies with the capuccino of HR we created a format where we really invite people it's HR leaders it's recruiters it's Talent acquisition guys and we are talking about all the different kind of topics and the range is going from AI of course to new work to leadership and all the challenges along the way yeah hello and welcome
to a new episode of C with HR I think a really special guest and I'm really proud to have Yan in in in my show today because uh I don't know if you have seen his profile he has got 170k followers on LinkedIn so I think uh that's amazing and it's really a big big big honor for me to have you in my in my capuccino with h today so welcome Yan thank you for inviting me and regarding the followers I'm pretty sure that people are just following me because the Friday's jokes so I mean
the reason the reason doesn't matter so it's it's really cool and um the first question that I always raise as it's called capuccino with HR so what's your favorite coffee y that's very good question I basically my preference beverage was cappuccino or or latte but I recently stopped drinking coffee completely so right now it's more te than capuccino but capuccino or lat was my preference of choice Okie do uh and then for those three out probably three or four people out there may I ask you to introduce you quickly with some some own words in
a few sentences just uh something about your background and yourself yeah sure uh I always describing myself as a huge fan of Recruitment and ta world uh I started many many many years ago uh I I'm enjoying the journey honestly even that AI is threatening me to replace me or everyone else but I'm I have I have fun I enjoy that work with amazing team amazing people and I'm always describing or you know when I describing my team or the entire ta team within our company or during that I work with during the entire career
I always saying that I kind of like won a lottery I'm blessed that I have really great uh team members leaders and that make my journey way fun and enjoyable uh I as you can see behind me I like to write uh so I wrote several books uh I writing a lot uh on LinkedIn especially during weekends when I'm preparing the content for uh for LinkedIn post articles uh because I like to share so uh and I'm right now I'm working as a director of ta uh at trienes and uh you know that's and as
you mentioned LinkedIn profile so if somebody wants to learn more about me LinkedIn profile is the best way where they need to go uh I I want to come back to the books because I know two books of you I know the fullstack recruiter and I know the chob search guide so and for me these two books I mean they try to cover both sides of of of the battle let's call it like this so it's more one is meant to to help recruiters to to to reach the position that they need in times like
this to come to what's needed and the other one is the job search guides I see it more for the candidates to really have a kind of a fluent flow through this kind of shitty process because I mean it's it's really tough and I mean i' honestly I've never met a person who's a really expert in changing jobs because normally uh people tend to change their jobs every three to five to seven years in average and so nobody is really an expert in changing jobs so I think it's for everyone if we come into this
kind of position it's always meant to be massive stress so uh and as you wrote these books for both sides and we do we we're doing the same with our surway so if we do a Sur way we normally ask a lot of developers out there and then we ask a lot of HR people out there to understand the Gap and the misunderstandings do you mean that the process is still broken I had that thank you for the question though so uh I had a discussion uh with several people yesterday on LinkedIn uh and people
are constantly saying you know the process is broken uh I it's very hard to answer that because uh it depends on what you see what is broken so is it fair that you receive a call from someone who invites you to the call because they know you and hire you is it fair towards the other candidates is it fair that somebody else is using AI to improve their resume and you don't is it fair that somebody's cheating and you don't so I don't believe that process itself is broken because it's process the people are and
what I what what I mean by that is we have our own biases uh we are bringing and regardless if you are candidates if you are HR uh my entire life I'm trying to get rid of my biases and review and evaluate every single candidate in the same set of I uh in the same Norm just and I'm and I'm I hope I kind of like achieve it I'm only assessing them based on the information that they are sharing with me it's resume or it's in you but it took me lots of years to get
where I am here where I'm now and so I don't believe the process is broken because it's process you have a submit submit the resume have the interview uh have the manager interview technical round and offer what what is broken on that process almost nothing but the selection part It's tricky because as you mentioned there are people who are not an expert by changing carers and I can tell you uh I last year I kind of like rewrite several rumes just for recruiters who should be an expert but uh there are not uh so not
having the the right knowledge uh that will H give you some uh benefit uh not benefit Advantage uh to be more visible get to the job uh get go get the call from the from the recruiter or like put the foot to the to the door that's a little bit tricky because not everyone has that knowledge and that's the reason why we are seeing so many people offering solutions that could be ATS bulletproof resume whatever that could be AI cheating Tool uh that will give you the advantage uh but the process itself is not broken
in that way how people and Har how Haring managers and recruiters working it's one thing how candidates are applying and again I'm not going to point the fingers that somebody should be blamed uh because you know one group has experience but they have their biases the other group uh is looking for a job and when you don't have a job you feel kind of like desperate because invoices are not or bills are not going to stop coming yeah so you feel the pressure and and I understand it I was in the same position and I
know how frustrated it is to looking for a job how hard is to find the job and yes if I lose the job today it will take me several weeks months to find a job that I'm looking for but because I also have some expectation of the job that I like to have so the entire process is and will be a challenge and I can talk about the hours is there easy solution absolutely not is AI the solution no because what what's going to happen in the near future we will be Outsourcing the recruiter work
to Ai and the AI will be doing what checking the data you feed against the data that the other group is spinning for and that will be AI matching the the data that the AI wants to see so what is going to happen the human element will going to enter the game again and make that and bring of course some of those recruiters and Har managers will bring their by yes so I I never met and I'm doing this job for many many years I never met anyone who can tell me how to fix that
issue that you know everybody saying this broken process but how to fix it how to fix it so it's fair for everyone everyone has a chance that will be evaluated every candidate has a chance to be evaluated for the role but you also need to and my last thing because I can talk about the hour hours about it there is lots of people who are applying for job that are suitable for them uh they're looking for they are let's say accountants and they are looking for Finance Management again it's it could be because that could
be the you know it depends on the type of responses ET but it's hard and it it always will be hard and it's one of the most stressful and challenging things that we all Embrace in our lives and yes some people change their job every three four years some will stick with the job for more years and I'm the I'm usually the guy who is trying to stick for more years because I know how stressful the changing job and and finding job is and I'm I'm so and and I'm I'm saying I'm I'm so lucky
to work with really amazing people and have really great colleague uh so that's I usually say that's the that's the that's the lottery win uh for me so thanks for that I mean I think there was a lot of of of you you were speaking out of my soul and my heart really I mean I see it exactly like you see I think we always trying in h we always trying to find a kind of a tool which could solve probably a problem which can't be sold with the tool yeah uh but I want to
go one step probably one step further in that in that discussion on that point because what I'm interested what's your opinion on what do you think is the missing element because probably it's not AI probably it's appreciation probably it's being on eye level what's your what's your take on this what do you think could solve the problem as it's a human thing uh it's probably also a human kind of solution I don't believe it can be solved uh that's literally the answer uh what is missing what is the one element compassion for others because uh
if you as a recruiter are reviewing hundreds of resma every week MH you see the data you see the numbers names but you don't see the like and I will say you don't see the person because you see the person right because you're speaking with them but people don't understand how much some recruiters are fighting for the the the candidates because we as a recruiters we would like to close the role so we are cheating for those and like hey this candidate is amazing and give you example one candidate uh or not candidate it was
a one person like my post on LinkedIn and I'm checking as every person who is giving likes and I saw hey this guy's a green buner he's a developer so I reach out to him like Hey you know you have a profile are you looking and I spoke with the manager and they have an interview so those things are also happening because I try to help the company to find a person uh that will be f for a role and some people uh that I discover through Linkedin arfit I also receiving most likely around 5
10 uh messages per day from people who are not fit for any role within our company uh and they give you example yesterday I received a profile from a guy who is a fork Fork lifter um and he's not a fit for any role uh but I reply to him I'm replying I'm trying to reply every single person every night after the job I went and just go through those 20 30 messages or LinkedIn invitation I've got and I'm replying every single person and even that they are not fit I'm I already built a page
a RS of content and I'm sending them and like hey I know that you are not fit but thank you for reaching out here are how to create the resume how to find the job here is the list of job uh portals ET and what they will do with that information is up to them but I I'm trying to help them and showing the compassion to those because I know how stressful it is but people are also asking me hey can you review my resume and they believe it's like five seconds I would just check
and give them the best answer no if I'm reviewing the resume it usually take me an hour just to make sure that the person will receive uh the the the quality content that they can use or the quality resume they can use uh during their job search and they take me hour between an hour and two hours and when you tell people okay I'm more than happy to do that but this is the compensation I'm looking for they expecting something for free and that's absolutely okay but they the reason why I'm sharing lots of content
is because I'm trying to show job Seekers also this is how recruiters are working and I'm writing uh uh newsletter also for recruiters so I've got two new newsletters for recruiters and for uh job Seekers and they can read from both of the words because they need to understand how recruitment is working what recruiters are doing and also how job Seekers are looking for a job because when you understand how job Seekers are looking for a job you will be more successful as a recruiter because you will be able to find those job of course
but I don't believe that the process and regardless if we agree on that if it's broken or not or where exactly it's broken don't believe it could be fixed because the ideal world is you will feed all your information truthfully to some freaking AI company will truthfully put the list of the requirements that they need and all those AIS will communicate each other and you know the AI also need to have your performance uh data from the from last let's say five years how you perform what are doing so if you have that set of
data then you will be evaluated for the right role with the right team with uh doing what you're looking for but that's not easy and I don't believe ever will yeah but I mean uh I really likeed what you said I mean you're sitting down and you're writing back to all the people that uh put effort into it giving you a kind of a notification or sending a message to you and I mean what you're doing is I mean you're giving back some appreciation at the end of the day it's appreciation to what they did
for you and you giving it back to them and I think that is that is probably minimum expectations that I have to company because if I Swit if I click on an apply Button as a candidate I normally I mean that's a willingness I mean honestly from the emotional point of view clicking on an apply Buton is the principle principle willingness to work for you as a company so and working for a company doesn't mean working for a company it anyhow means I'm willing to give you parts of my lifetime and and and I think
that the minimum what I expect then from the company is getting an answer yeah yes and of course there is always element uh and and I'm also going to split the the answer into two parts the first part is uh I was talking about Link in itself but of course if you are a candidate I'm also trying to reply even if it's like just the template give the feedback to everyone yeah yeah but when I was going through uh my LinkedIn messages it was and it was during the the the winter holidays I spent like
two days going through all the messages that I sent uh on LinkedIn and I found six people who never received any answer from me and so i s like hey I know that you sent a message a few months ago I apologize I overloaded and it's the same with when you're sending some replies through your it there is always someone who you overlooked and sadly that's life but of course you have the number of the the majority of people who reply or or apply on the role or contact me they Sho and I'm trying to
to give them some answer if they reply if they uh reach out to me over LinkedIn and there are to be honest this year I decided to stop replying on those hello there is nothing because like you let's just tell me what you need and I will provide because usually it's like hello the next answer is how are you I'm fine and and it's like five other messages that I can invest into something else yeah as we as we um as we're talking about AI today and we have taken this as a topic for the
talk as well I mean I I I want to ask you what's your opinion on if AI is entering the field and I mean we definitely can avoid it I mean in many many in many many areas it's already there and in many many areas it will show up definitely I'm 100% sure is it replacing Us in in in recruiting or could it be our personal assistant what's your take on that uh to be honest it's very hard to answer because it's so it's developing so quickly that the things that I thought that are not
possible are now a reality uh the the the voice cloning and and and creating the avatars improved drastically over last two years that right now uh I create my clone and I was like I don't even know that it's not me it's not video recording so uh the quality of the the cont the the the AI in some areas like the B loing and and other things is so Advanced that I do believe that within five years I would everyone have or we have like AI agent that will be doing that job reaching out and
we most likely will be just speaking with those people uh and all the discussion will be recorded uh analyze summarize and put somewhere into into the system but uh honestly it's very hard to answer it if it's going to replace us or if it's our assistant right now we are all using to be more uh effective or creating an illusion that we are more effective uh but yes there will be smaller HR teams and of course the smaller ta teams because lots of those things could be outsourced so you don't need to have uh um
someone answering question of employees if you have a chatbot that will cover 80% of those uh those things uh in uh recruitment sourcing as a I'm always joking that sourcing is dead or dying and I kind of like believe into that as well because the way how we Source right now it's more like here is the AI tool that will go online and find all the people outside there with you just need to put the data but what people if you don't want to be replaced you need to know how to talk to AI how
to how to uh it's like Googling everybody can Google but if you for example start using file type you know that the the the operator file type that will help you to find just the PDF files or document files or any files that that you can find uh and it's the same with the AI every everyone I know and even my mother and and she's retired she knows how to use ched GPD but she's using CH GPD in the same way can you tell me this and that and you will get the answer are you
sure that the answer is correct are you sure that it's not just the hallucination uh involved into the into that uh result or the answer uh and what if you are ask differently you will maybe get way better reply and uh I had a discussion with quickly Ju Just brief story I had a discussion with my my friend and he was telling me how he was trying to solve the uh problem with Excel uh and J GPD or or clo or any AI is great for it but he spent more time to finding the solution
uh then implement it because he he was not able to find uh or he didn't ask properly the right way yeah and when I showed him how I would be asking I was like oh yeah five seconds done you have the answer but he spent like 20 minutes just to figure out and then he thought hey I'm was very successful and productive because I solved the issue that was literally 5c thing through GP or something else so but I mean if it take an Outlook into the future and I mean there's prognosis and I think
they are probably written in stone that from 2030 on when the baby boomers are going to disappear from the labor markets all over Europe and I mean this I think this will probably not uh doesn't mean if if um AI is supporting us in sourcing that we in HR have more time in tell neotion we have more time to convince the candidates than emotionally convinced because I have aop that AI can emotionally convince anyone yeah I mean it's a rational mechanical thing yeah it will stay like this so at the end of the day we
need to win the talents for our organizations and that means emotional con wincing so it will probably free us up to have more time for where why we all went into HR we wanted to talk and deal with people I mean that is what what what I think what my passion is being in this in in this business uh getting in contact and convincing emotionally convincing people so let me ask you this uh if everyone has access to the tools the same tools yeah they are able to find and Outreach any one in the world
within one click y the noise that AI is already creating yeah is incredible the response rate on LinkedIn is dropping yeah uh the uh people are getting I don't know maybe 40% more uh messages that's good for LinkedIn and pricing but and are you going to reply to every offer that you will receive and what if you are going to miss any offer so you are going to be you are ended up in the point that you will yeah let's say stop ignoring you will basically stop paying attention to those to those messages and start
ignoring them uh and as a recruiter you will see or you will have a funnel and like I approach 200,000 candidates and I've got six response so yeah you have a time to speak with the people but where the heck you will find those people because they might not be even open to speak with you so what is going to happen it will we will go back to meetups calling people maybe who knows uh uh but AI is making our life and job easier but also creating new challenges and one of the challenge is what
you will do or how you going to be reaching out people if everyone else has the same tools so at the end it will be some way LinkedIn okay so we can sh uh promote your uh message and put it uh as a sticky message for three days uh in the in the candidates inbox for two extra credits or or something like that and if L is if LinkedIn team is going to hear this podcast and they implement I'm I hope I'm expecting as a t-shirt or something like that me as well me as well
of course of course uh but AI is creating so many challenges that people don't understand we are only focusing mostly on benefits like oh we can be faster and we can process people faster we can write an email within free clicks instead of spending 10 minutes on on drafting it but yeah yeah yeah fully agree where to find those people that will reply and how you emotionally connect with them if they don't even want to open the the LinkedIn account because they they know like hey I've got millions of jobs and when I need one
I will just use my AI agent to go and try to lure other AI agents to to get me the offer I mean Yan as you in the business for quite some time with a lot of experience and I think uh what kind of tools are you using right now ATS uh so ATS LinkedIn and a few other tools then I don't want to kind of like do the promotion for them uh but honestly uh it the tools are just the tools uh understanding how to use them is important yeah and that's and and I'm
I'm a huge fan of AI don't get me wrong I'm a huge fan and I sharing the knowledge and information I'm getting from uh using thei or using other tools with the team as well because I truly believe sharing is caring uh and if they use the knowledge that I found they will be more successful and our company is more successful so everybody is happy we are growing and our goal is to of course be uh effective and finding the right talent in the right time uh so the and plus the tools are changing so
so if one tool is working today it doesn't mean that next week or not week next year it's it's going to work the same same same day same same way uh but I will give you example everybody's using cgpd because it's free some people are paying for it I stop using it I I I like for last two three months I'm not using cgpd and I'm paying only for clo that I believe it's way better uh I'm not jumping on all the height that oh this is something that chpd is I no uh for images
I'm using canva that I'm paying because using some creating graphic and their image quality and the way how they are generating the images is way Superior than that than than CH GP do or others and I'm spending lots of time with AI Studio from Google they have experimental models they are far and more advanced that CH GPT and they are it's free as so far it's free but the quality of the the the results and the way how you can work with the with those AI is amazing and then and to be honest I and
it's and and it's free and right now you literally do not have or almost don't have to pay for using AI if you are just the general user and I'm also using or not using I'm playing with replit is a it's a tool for developers right so so I'm trying to develop my uh WordPress plug-in applications just to trying to understand uh not how to just create the the the application but as you can see the code it and you will ask something you see how the code is implemented uh I'm not a developer but
I truly enjoy uh to seeing how it's implemented because I I know some code I I know how to read it but it also help me to to better understand the the process how those things kind of like are used and that will be the other the other Tool uh that I kind of like really enjoy uh you know using uh and playing with uh if if the boss is coming to a guy in HR right now tomorrow morning and we'll ask we'll tell them okay we have to implement AI now within our company and
our recruiting what would be one or two tips that you could give to these kind of AG up people out there probably having not dealt with this kind of stuff how to what what should be the first two steps uh well my answer will be uh let's uh invite on the call Dave Dave is our VPI incredibly smart person uh regarding AI so how would include him into to the discussion because there are there are people who are way smarter than me and uh I know he would be able to bring way more knowledge uh
to the discussion so and if he's not if he's busy then I would be including few more people because uh you know have I I could recommend my preference that I do believe is good for me and it's going to work for me but every implementation should be working for more people and for the entire so I would be including uh I don't say panel discussion or or something like that but I would be bringing bringing people who has the knowledge who are who are also a user users of those AIS and uh they can
bring their experience uh for to the implementation and then together as one team will be able to implement the solution that will work for majority of us because you know all all implementations are not working for for everyone 100% so definitely bringing Dave that would be that would be my my answer and if Dave is busy then uh bring more people uh bring more people on board uh because that's definitely going to be uh thing that will have the implementation and I know that people don't like to hear that but I would also bring Legos
team uh because AI is definitely uh something that require their expertise uh and even if they say most likely no to majority of the things they most likely be right uh so uh but no bringing bringing legal team is also something that I would be recommending and then we will be exploring and selecting the tools because there are many tools on the market some of them are AI but what is AI right now it's more it's just machine learning right uh the the AGI the the almighty AI that we want to achieve is still not
there it will most likely will take few more years or maybe I don't know if it's even possible um but it's all about uh not a real AI it's more just machine learning right now yeah uh Yan as the time is really blowing you I mean because we we already coming to the end of our of our recording um I could continue for another two hours talking to you I mean it's amazing um I a small bird was twittering me that uh you are writing a new book and this new book is about the ey
and could you give us a quick sneak peek on what we could expect from it is it pro AI is it no so uh I'm I'm not trying to be Pro and against things I'm trying to embrace things as they are so I finished the book right now I'm trying to create the cover and because I'm self-publishing majority of my books uh then I have a freedom to publish and and say what what I want the book is basically uh the title is how to talk to AI uh the the reason for it is because
I would like to give any everyone job Seeker recruiter everyone who is interested about AI some manual How I Learned few years ago about AI how I understand those those uh uh The Prompt creation what are the best practices what I'm using so there are also practical examples and I will be also creating some extra content like extra proms as a PDF files that I will be sharing on our on my website uh for one simple reason because I don't want to have a book with 900 Pages or something uh but I would like to
give people the ability to go and learn about uh the AI uh and how to communicate with it in the right way because right now many people when they for example want to write the LinkedIn post or article they go and write write me a LinkedIn post or LinkedIn article whatever about this topic and mention these two things done they will get the result is it good most likely not but if you start thinking about that in different weight and you like act as a copywriter who is focusing on this topic then cover uh this
is the this is the um uh format that I would like to follow uh focus on the tone uh of the the the content readability and other things if you structure your prompts you will get way more results uh and way more better results as well uh so I'm trying to explain people or give people some kind of like manual like hey you don't be a pro I'm also not a pro as Dave uh so here's the manual I do believe it's good and uh and because I'm not the native speaker uh I wrote the
entire book I spent several months I believe like 11 12 months almost a year on it and then I went everything that I put together source and everything I asked AI can you verify and provide the if it's really true and I try and I just basically test it through various uh AIS as well just to see how how they're working with the data and I asked uh to fix the grammar flow because usually you know when I'm writing there is lots of grammatical errors so it helps but I still went and hire uh the
editor and together with editor we make some changes improve the flow fix some things that could be better but the all the information I put it there are based on my experience knowledge research and how I how I'm using AI every day and because I was and I'm literally able to save 24 hours per week because of AI on the task that was doing I do believe every everyone can do that and if you have that knowledge then AI might not be replacing you right now but you will find the way how you can work
with AI and having AI knowledge I believe that will be one of the core requirements within next few years when they will be hiring accountant or writer technical support whatever role that you will need to have a knowledge with AI so I'm expecting that uh it will be beneficial for people as well that was a I think that was the best closing word for this for this episode I think it really it really said everything so thank you very much Yan for taking your time it was a pleasure having you in this episode of capuccino
with HR thear audience I hope you enjoyed the session as much as I did during during the recording so please stay tuned for what's coming up and Yan thank you very much for being with us pleasure having thank you for watching capuccino with HR if you enjoy this kind of conversations please don't forget to hit the Subscribe button then you get all this kind of upfront information you upcoming episodes and all my nice guests capucino with HR is brought to you by we developers Europe's number one developer community and the leading platform for connecting HR
and companies together with Developers if you want to learn more visit us on we developers.com thank you again for watching and see you next time on capuccino with HR
