A funnel is not optional you have one by default it's just every single touch point that somebody has with your brand and especially when it comes to Legion there's there's two levers to pull right you don't want anybody you want the right people so you want to optimize for those purchases and what we try and do and why I love it is we want to try and Empower marketing teams and CEOs to let their marketing teams fail and to learn Things and not trying to make them you know one shot one opportunity there has been
a lot of talk about AI I'm going to going on a small rant about AI because it's what people need to hear today we are thrilled to have Alicia Dynamic force in the world of sales funnel and conversion optimization with a career that began in the trenches of sales and cold calling Alicia has risen to co-found persuasion experience a Cutting Edge traffic and conversion Agency her expertise has driven the creation of over 450 funnels and campaigns helping both startups and billion doll brands like link tree and kugan SC their marketing efforts now a freedom entrepreneur
traveling the world Alisha is here to share her insights on building Innovative Marketing Systems and seatt welcome to the show Alicia how's it going today good thank you for such a beautiful introduction I'm very excited to chat with you great I've gone Through a profile and Kos to all the great work that you have been doing and it's good to see that we have such C experts and the uh knowledge about cro is now wides spreading across Ross the world as well because I believe C is still in the nent stages but leaders like you
are making sure that every business knows about C and they are doing things to make uh you know the experience of the users better on the website exactly um a lot of people are Very obsessed with ads right and they think more ads let's just scale ad budgets and get more traffic but the problem is you can't scale traffic that doesn't convert and so I'm very excited that you guys want to talk about the post click experience my favorite topic great great glad to have you on the podcast and thank you so much for your
time so uh what do you love most working in the cro industry by the way so in the cro industry and this is one thing with Like how I consider C right cro should be conversion rate optimization to me what does that mean well optimization means that you're making something as good or as effective as possible the problem is most people think there's ads and maybe there's cro but they forget the building of the initial machine it's what we call like the lead machine right so what I love about cro as a discipline is that
it is constant improvements and we do this for our clients we're split Testing headlines we're testing new things because what cro is about is just about curiosity and learning right the problem for a lot of people with testing and you would know this is they they fail to start because they're scared of failures exactly the thing is failure is feedback and feedback is knowledge and knowledge is power so one of the things with c one of the the things like our education and what we try and do and why I love it is we want
to try and Empower Marketing teams and CEOs to let their marketing teams fail and to learn things and not trying to make them you know one shot one opportunity having to get it right exactly straight away very true I love the point wherein you said failure is feedback and feedback is far I totally agree to this because uh not every test can be a winner right you will have failures as well but it's important to get those learnings out of those tests or the campings that you're Running basically and those learnings can actually be beneficial
for you to run better ideas on the website and any website can never be perfect there's always a SC scope of improvement right so it's a continuous process as you said so totally uh agreed with your point so uh businesses uh you know use trade marketing you know quite often and they're concerned about converting their leads uh traffic into leads so how can these businesses begin with conversion Rate optimization since you said that the start is always the problem yes so I've worked with probably like a thousand clients and most of them if they're sophisticated
and they're doing ads what they start to find is they get stuck and they can't scale past a certain point right and you probably see this as well and so maybe then they move to cro and they're like okay we're going to start testing things right but I kind of got that's like you're Frankensteining something because what they failed to do was put in the research and the strategy and the execution to build their initial machine so before we go full nerd on everybody and start talking about cro I just want to make that differentiation
and and that's like that's what we do for our clients is what every single person needs to do is you need to build the foundations to scale it's like what would be the point of buying like a Shitty Honda and then trying to deck it out with optimizations that are meant for a Ferrari you want to bring in I don't know cars so hopefully this this analogy is landing with someone but hopefully what you want to do is bring in a proper Ferrari before you start doing mods but people aren't doing that right they've got
like an old beat up car and they're trying to do mods to it so what you actually need to do is consider where are you sending your Traffic to and what does that system need to look like because you don't need ads and you don't need a landing page what you need is a system and then you can start split testing amongst that system and cro is not just reserved for ads or cro is not just reserved for the project it should be part of a holistic campaign strategy of consistent iteration and testing so before
you do any cro what you need to do is make sure that you have your right Ferrari to be Making these mods and improvements on exactly fair enough makes sense I believe analysis and the pre- resarch has to be given a lot of focus in sio to make sure that first of all as you said it has to be aligned with the strategy with the business goals of the organization and secondly uh it's it's very important to make sure that the ideas that you're coming up with our data D because you need to understand what's
not working and what has to be Optimized and that only comes when you look for ideas analyze your website and uh do that mix of both quantitative and qualitative analysis that basically helps you come up with data backed ideas so uh I understand you know what you're saying and I believe this is something that a lot of businesses should focus uh you know into now in Industries with uh you know longer sales cycle how do you adjust cro strategies coning the extended decision making process is what Steps do you take after landing page optimization yes
so when and this is who we work with we usually work with B2B High ticket B to C higher ticket purchase higher consideration right in before someone's going to purchase and basically the first thing you need to do is map out your lead to sales time and what are the different touch points and what is someone going to have now some people might call that a funnel and here's the thing a funnel is not Optional right like it's not some um Russell Brunson internet marketer thing a funnel is not optional you have one by default
it's just every single touch point that somebody has with your brand and the thing about these touch points is they're all potential Revenue leaks yeah and then these little leaks they can sync big ships if you're not optimizing those so you have to understand those touch points so if you want to be um dealing with these like Longer lead to sales times you need to understand the psychology behind the buyer then you need to map out that lead to sales time you need to understand where they're going to be in their stages of awareness and
then make sure that at each of those points you have different offers which are your different micro yeses and then you want to be testing these things so once you have this mapped out and you understand all of these different touch points and You build your initial Ferrari yeah your funnel now what we can start to do is test those things now what are some of those levers you could test well there's your initial landing page that's where you send traffic to we can optimize that how can we optimize that better offer better copy more
social proof um there's a lot of I won't list them all out I'll start talking for three hours but that's one thing then there is other things like the form how Do we capture that information blah blah blah and then there's emails and all these other assets but the main thing I want everybody to remember is what are you optimizing for right because optimization has an end goal and so I've been guilty of this in my early days of cro but you have a norstar metric and that norstar metric is not more leads and this
is where people get it really wrong in lead generation you don't want more leads you want more buyers so even If you are getting a lower conversion rate on your landing page or you're paying more per lead who cares if it's turning into more buyers and that's what you need to be make sure you're doing in any good plan is making sure that you are testing and and measuring against that Northstar metric which is typically money in the bank right not actually a lead very true in fact a lot of SAS businesses that we have
been working with they always tell That their main focus or the macro goal is leads but ideally these have these have to be qualified leads right and should convert into bias rather than just improving your conversions on lead will not eventually get you there rather you need those qualified leads which actually leads to you know final conversions and secondly I also like the point where you said that we need to understand the funnel understand each step of the funnel because even in Clients I've seen cases wherein clients who want to improve their number of orders
they will start making changes to their cart page which doesn't really make sense it's always a trickling effect if you're making changes to the homepage you improve the experience on the homepage and you see its impact act on the listings page or the collections page similarly if you're if you're trying to improve users who are landing on the card page you first need to make Sure that your product page is idly at its best so that the experience on the product page is great and then users then move to the card page so exactly as
you rightly said the entire funnel has to be understood well and then each part of that funnel has to be worked upon exactly how we think of it is like like even like when I've done webinar funnels right and and somebody like okay I want to get my opt-in page rate to 50% I'm like no you don't because the whole Point of bringing people in is to sell them something down the line so it's very easy to get high conversion rates right but that's not what you always want and especially when it comes to Le
gen there's there's two levers to pull right quantity and quality and that's the same for sass it's the same for everyone you don't want anybody you want the right people so you want to optimize for those purchases so yeah that's a that's a good point so so the lead Machine Workshop system of persuasion experience is much talked about so could you tell us more about this because I believe this is something that you know is new to CR as well and this is something that you have been working on personally so if you can give
us some more insights on it yes so basically now in my career I've been in marketing for about 10 years I started out in a company called King Kong and I built out their sales funnel and conversion team From scratch right doing everything post click all of the emails all the cro but um after that I went to founder they do seven and eight figure course launches so I'm launching these courses and I'm doing a c right but what I found was every time I'm trying to improve results there was always one big lever one
big lever that would really like change a business and it was the author so you could have the the fugliest pages you could have the most Average copy with the strongest offer it would always out compete a beautifully branded page usually beautiful design distracts people anyway with the best copy in the world the number one thing that will change your business is the offer and the how you position that in the minds of the person reading or who your target market is so basically because I've made like a thousand of them we distilled it all
down into this workshop and part of our mission is to Like to help businesses who are awesome but don't know the marketing and sales and so now we've had like a thousand people go through that workshop and we get really awesome feedback at the time of recording I think we charge like 17 bucks for it and it's three hours step by step how to make an offer because C is pretty useless if you don't have a core offer that you're even offering somebody what could is a button color test if you don't even have an
offer to Convert your traffic yet very true okay so this is basically an Workshop focused on offers and how you can basically Leverage your offers to improve conversions on the website that's the whole exactly exactly exactly okay okay because I believe this is still something that is not really talked uh you know a topic that has been talked about in C uh because as you said it's it's always the the discussion has been more around changing the headlines Changing the colors changing the copy changing images but how to position your offer is definitely something that
even I have got a chance to discuss in detail with C experts out there so I believe this is something that is going to add a lot of value to businesses uh and uh hopefully a lot of you know people who are going to listen to this podcast or are in the C field get to know about this Workshop that you have and you know subscribe to it and make sure that they Are using their offers to the for list yeah yeah yeah thank you I agree bit biased but I agree how does the visitor
Behavior diff uh you know differ between a paid camping and a you know paid camping landing page and a website landing page what methods do you um use to research these behaviors so I would say and whenever I answer a question I want to teach people how to think about it and then how to do It right like it's more important that you learn how to think about it so no matter when something changes in the digital landscape which it does every day you can have the mental models to to think about this so here's
how to think about this your website is very different to your landing page or your funnel your your website is more like an informational brochure it's important and then a bunch of people are going to go and check it out right everything in Your marketing has a purpose and your website has a purpose but your landing page and your funnel has a very different purpose so when we're talking about targeted paid ads targeted traffic that you pay for sending that to website is like sending it to your front desk person sending your hottest prospects to
your front desk and hoping it'll close it ain't going to work but sending your targeted out of traffic to a landing page right to your funnel is like Sending it to your most trained salesperson why because these are specific pages that are going to be curated on a journey now that's that's not saying that somebody won't go and research you on the website this starts to turn into what Google calls the messy middle yeah they're not going to people are insane they're not going to do exactly step by step what you want but they see
your ad they see your page they might go and look at your website and They're looking for certain things but when we create a landing page it's like a digital appointment seter or a digital salesperson and that thing has one product for one audience with one call to action and that's it and it's very different to how I see people setting up their websites now the other thing that you need to consider with traffic and ads is that different traffic has different temperatures so your SEO has a different intent your Google ads has a Different
intent your Facebook ads has a different intent and you want to match those landing pages with the conversation going on in their brain so with your website you're kind of trying to like um create something that is going to answer like a catch all for everybody but when you run paid traffic you have a really unique experience to understand exactly where that person is in the buyer's journey and then create an experience like a lead experience a Sales experience to convert that traffic for example on Google ads you literally know what someone's searching for so
you know in their head what what's going to be their next micro step what are they looking for what's the temperature what's what's the conversation and on Facebook ads you can kind of gauge that but on your website it's more of a catch all so in terms of like in my opinion and I think it's just fact my personal fact opinion is how does um visitor Behavior differ between a paid campaign landing page and a website landing page your website's not made for conversions it's important and it's part of like the factchecking journey but when
you have paid media you you can test this but ideally you want to be sending them to Dedicated landing pages made for that and in terms of method to research their behavior we watch user session recordings heat Maps scroll Maps click Maps it's like quantitative data and Qualitative data right the the quantitative data which is the numbers just tells you the what but that's not the full picture that's just like here's what's broken or here's what's working cool the qualitative data so your your um customer surveys your onboarding surveys your um user session recordings the
heat Maps click Maps that's why that helps you to start create a story and a hypothesis around the data so you actually know what to improve I really Love that comparison that you made with users coming or you know coming from Paid camping and landing page and getting directly into that expert sales guy who will basically guide you and give you that personalized suggestion rather than going to the front desk and getting lost in the entire Journey once again right because there's so much uh that a website has got to offer in terms of different
products or different offer the it's quite evident that the user Might get lost if they're coming from a paid camping and then you're just wasting your money rather you give them a personalized experience put them right in the funnel wherein for what they're actually looking for from where they can actually move ahead and you know continue that Journey so that point one of the things we do as well because people are used to using navigation and things on a website so we've tested on our landing pages Having a sticky nav still which which will anchor
to certain parts of the page kind of making it like a one-page website right because people people sometimes that's how they want to interact with you so that we might have pricing or about us or FAQ or reviews which are naturally on the landing page we put them in the navigation and then they just anchor to certain parts of the page so we're still controlling as much of the conversation as possible fair Fair I believe this is a good approach as well to make sure that they also they I mean they get that personalized feeling
on The Landing Page Plus also have that control to move along you know different options that you put in in that sticky na yeah so you know there has been a lot of talk about Ai and many AI tools such as you know synthetic panels and chat g chat GPD are commonly used for you know user research and copyrighting so have you Incorporated Any similar Tools in your work and how has your experience been so far yes I have but also I'm going to going on a small rant about AI because it's what people need
to hear people are very obsessed about AI here's the thing like here's the marketing equation that you need to know right there's psychology plus economics times technology if you're a good marketer you know all of these psychology why does someone buy who's your Market what's the Words they use the language the offers blah blah blah the economics what are your funnel economics what's your cpls your CPAs what can you afford to spend and um what's the LTV all of these like economic words the maths your marketing maths and that equation is times technology now here's
the thing technology is an accelerator but 1,00 times zero is still zero so if you do not have the base of that equation if you don't understand your customers if You don't have the right economic setup for your marketing and your business AI is Rocket Fuel not a life it will you're just pouring Rocket Fuel onto a dumpster fire right your business is a dumpster fire and you're pouring Rocket Fuel onto it rant over now I will tell you how we use AI in our business um the main thing is we don't Outsource our thinking
to AI it's not there yet and that's a good thing because we're all going to become very redundant if AI Starts thinking Bor us so what I see a lot of people doing wrong with AI is that they're trying to Outsource the strategy you can't a to this is my opinion AI is like your intern or your personal assistant or something very eager to please doesn't necessarily know how to do it and doesn't necessarily get it right all of the time now we use AI in like every like every part of our process of course
because it speeds us Up technology is an accelerator but we have our core machine working right so it's okay we can do that and we have a bunch of different prompts for our research phase for our copywriting phase for ads all of these different things where we're integrating AI for our data but for example with copy using AI with copy if you don't know what good copy is and AI serves you up just like if an intern gives you something and you don't know if something's good and then you Run it the problem is everybody's
just becoming more noise in the industry right so actually the um the environment is Shifting where um with AI our newest thing is how do we stay authentic how do we sound human how do we put content out there that doesn't sound like AI generated garbage so yeah I'm always very wary to talk about like techstack and AI because there's enough cool people that talk about that my mission is like hey if I can help you to Understand who your customer actually is you're going to have a business and if you and if you solve
their problems and you provide them value that's much more powerful than learning AI you need to learn that first and R that's my AI rant I did warn you no no I I totally agree because I believe this Obsession has been across uh Industries uh because it's just a trend that everyone's just following you know and they want to have that implemented As a part of the business strategy but definitely doesn't work it just it it might give you a Direction to do certain things but as a business owner you know what your business is
all about what is your value proposition what is it that your brand has to offer and nobody can solve that better than you know you you yourself rather than bringing in AI right so I totally understand that it works like an intern as you said just give you certain headlines that you can Put but it it's not really helping you can just use it as a part of your strategy but AI will not be your strategy M exactly great and uh you know since you have been running a lot of tests for these clients that
you have been working with what what are these kind of tests that U that are run on most of the landing page optimizations and is it like multivariate testing AB testing split testing or split y testing or is there any scope of doing server Side testing as well rather than C side awesome so um at at its highest level when we're working with clients we do mainly AB testing that's what we do but that's because of the constraints of the amount of visitors we don't do multivariant for our clients because you just need heaper traffic
right AB split tests and that's just the nature of lead gen and service-based campaigns okay even when I've worked on e-commerce websites maybe more multivariant more Things on the product pages but it's a different environment that I'm launching the testing in right um so for most of our clients specifically beta B High ticket beta C we're talking Legion here um what we're doing or um when we're thinking about what kinds of tests to run right we want to be thinking about what's going to move the needle the most so there's this great book I think
his name's Chris goard and it's called you should test that have you read that no I Haven't got a chance but I note of this you love it yeah yeah yeah R it r r it it's really good um and he has a framework in there that helps you to come up with your tests so starting to get more into this split testing right okay when it comes to cro you can run tests but marketing is inputs and outputs garbage in garbage out so if you run a shitty test you are going to get shitty
results and a shitty outcome we don't want that so what is going to move The needle the most and sometimes it's not what you want to run trust me marketing is a humbling sport most of my tests don't work but I always learn something from them and so it's like nine out of 10 I don't know it's probably not nine out of 10 but nine out of 10 don't move the needle but that one that does because you've learned all of these other things holy moly that like changes the game right and that's what we're
looking for but how do you find That so we use a framework called Pi some people use ice we use Pi Pi is what we do is we write down all of our ideas so where're this the process is we look at the quantitative and the qualitative data we have to have good hypotheses good ideas then we rank the ideas and those get ranked out of five across three factors potential importance and ease potential how much is it going to lift the conversion importance how important is It ease how easy is it for the developers
or the person to execute it right um those are the three things then this takes the this takes as much subjectiveness as you can because that is testing testing is not necessarily emotion this is more of like the the art and the science blend right like you don't want to just be doing random stuff corre and then you want to create a hierarchy based on that really for us when we're testing what might impact Some of those um rankings is um like the prominence on the page right so what I see some people do is
they come up with really cool ideas but they're down the bottom of the page and only 25% of people get to the bottom or whatever and it's like well actually let's look above the fold and usually for our campaigns it's in the headline like the biggest movers and shakers for for this type of campaign is in the headline now when I used to work at Founder and I was running a lot more like webinar funnels or a lot more um info product funnels because that's what they were that required probably a different like level of
um thinking because that's different when I've worked for e-commerce and done e-commerce that requires something a little bit different as well but it all still comes back to potential importance ease what's the hierarchy and what's going to move The needle the most please for the love of God don't test button color first it's like the most lame test you can do I don't know why people are obsessed with it basically as a default you're call to action should just follow the isolation effect which means it's a different color to everything else on the page start
with that and then and then like do some like cool tests that are not lazy and require like require this level of thinking where you analyze The data and you come up with good ideas fair enough I believe even I'm stuck with uh you know that stage where in the first test always has to be a color test on the CT and sometimes it doesn't even go with the the The Branding guidelines as well I'm like why do you have to do that why do you have to just keep a prominent neon green color CTA
which just uh you know shines over my eye you don't have to do that just to increase the CTR right yeah so and again I Understand the point wherein you said out of 10 you get nine tests which might not do well but you have that one test that changes everything right and this is where I believe is what a lot of knowledge is required especially in terms of CR because I've seen uh at at least for teams wherein they have just started C they give up way too easily they have run two to three
tests the conversion hasn't been moving and they just feel like okay I'm just wasting my Money and you know they give up rather it's hard to find those teams wherein they have that consistent approach of running tests every month and not just looking at winners and losers rather than getting learnings from East test using that learning to come up with a new idea and trying to see how that can help you improve your conversions so people need to understand that there's a reason this is called Experimentation otherwise it would be called something else because if
you want everything to be a winner it would become very easy so you need to understand this is experimentation and there would be winners and there would be losers and exactly different ways to test it so I totally um you know understand where you're coming from especially in terms of that CT example you said in terms of changing the color uh I have I believe the feeling is Mutual in that case that's good and hopefully everyone else listening you'll I mean and it's like we've all been there on our journey to learn cro because it's
like the first thing that's in every blog article so this is why you need to like it all comes back to psychology you have to understand people right because behind the numbers is a person oh we've got a low conversion rate people aren't converting oh we've got a low click-through rate people People aren't clicking like oh the form people drop off on the form yeah people don't like the form your form sucks so it's it's always psychology and it always comes back to how can you persuade and motivate someone to take action and then that's
how your split test should be guided correct correct it's it's important psychology is important that understanding is important I think we as an organization also focus on that wherein we need to Understand the user psychology and then make sure the ideas that you're coming up with are aligned with the user Persona of your website and you need to understand that it's a human actually using your website right exactly you have been saying that you know that you're a freedom entrepreneur who travels the world and builds you know persuasion uh uh conversion on the road that
sounds interesting could you just help us understand more about it yeah Okay I'll give I'll give a quick origin story so I started persuasion experience with my my boyfriend or my partner about three years ago prior to that we created something called Operation Freedom and so we're really big into life design and living with intent and we would go away every quarter and like go and St in an Airbnb and we would be like okay like what do we want our lives to look like we would write it all down and like our Northstar metric
was was always freedom And so we saved up like six months of living expenses and we and we had started our side hustles and then one day over a breakfast we were like all right let's quit our jobs today and we'll figure figure it out and so long story short with this Operation Freedom the first the first part of Freedom was freedom of time and place like we didn't have a job anymore we could run our own business that was the first freedom and then one day we were like okay the next Freedom is time
of place let's sell all our stuff and travel fulltime so in April 2023 we sold everything that we owned and we packed our life into a suitcase and we got a one way ticket to Barley very cliche digital Nomad Vibe went to Barley um and we did that for a bit and we did Thailand and we did um Malaysia columa and um where else America and all these different places and yeah so we're about to go and moved to Italy for a few Months and um yeah it's really helped us to build a business on
our terms right like we've been able to build the business to suit us not having to cram Our Lives to suit this monster of a business that we created so Freedom entrepreneur is basically a fancy word for um a digital Nomad who because we build the business and we we travel full-time while we do it I believe this helps you achieve both your personal and professional goals as Well that way exact I believe it's a luxury uh for users or people who can actually travel and work because during the pandemic we had this trend that
every company was offering uh you know uh work from home but again since things have gotten back to normal people have been asked to come back to the office but U you know taking that first step of selling out everything that you own and then traveling across the globe uh sounds Pretty interesting I hope one day I'm at that point wherein I'm able to make this decision as well uh but that sounds pretty interesting where in the core uh you know motto that you have is freedom and that's what you're using to build your business
as well and also you know making sure that you're so great you were saying that you have built a lot of funnels 450 plus funnels so what is the main pain point that visitors keep facing and what which most Businesses don't get right U you know when optimization funnels yeah so the main okay so this is going back to like people are behind the numbers when you're trying to come up with your cro and your tests right and what are the main um pain points that visitors keep facing basically they have no idea what you
do or how you can help them that's like like with all the clients that I work with they really struggle to get their messaging right so that they can Actually stand out from the noise and explain what they do and um people when they're looking at your marketing assets or your funnel they're just thinking so what who cares what's in it for me now that's not even getting into the ux problems that we all know most sites have because most of the time someone can bring me a funnel and be like oh this isn't working
and then I find one Tech change and I'm like well have you considered making this button Have you considered making the button work that might improve conversions but the pain points if you think of because even if you think of yourself when you're trying to buy something in your brain all you're thinking is so what who cares what's in it for me and so all you're trying to do is you're trying to give them enough information to make a decision that's all we're trying to do and in our marketing we're not trying to get a
big knockout punch right it's a Micro step each part of our Mar marketing is just trying to get that next little yes that next little yes to keep moving to keep it moving them along yeah so really the pain point is people are in actual pain whether we're working with a spinal surgeon or property investment or a hair transplant doctor people are in physical pain and the business is not doing enough to explain how they can help them right that and that's the thing that comes back to like Build your Ferrari and then start to
test stuff start test the headline the cult to ction copy before the color test the copy on the CTO action test the offer test what's above the fold test being in bullets versus subhead don't just put things on a page to make the page look pretty everything on the page should earn its spot it's all valuable real estate every pixel don't just put a picture there how does your design complement how can you um in that book I Was telling you about he has this great graphic called a lift model so how can you decrease
anxiety how can you increase urgency how can you decrease distractions how can you make a clear clearer value proposition how can you add more urgency these are the things that you need to do because when you create marketing you're trying to you're trying to convince somebody to push them out of inertia like they're in a state of just being and you're trying to in a Digital way shake them and get them to take action that's actually really bloody hard so it's very hard so um when people aren't optimizing funnels it just goes back to that
psychology and really understanding um even if you just Google that lift model understanding that lift model and making sure that it's got no distractions it's not inducing anxiety it's got high relevance it's got high Clarity it's got high urgency and the value proposition is clear if you can do That on your pages then people are going to go oh yeah I understand what you do for me and then they can buy from you that's how it works fair enough uh I totally understand that point that you just mentioned in terms of somebody looking for a
hair transplant uh and they are actually in a physical pain they're trying to solve a personal problem and in such case I I've seen websites wherein you you know land on the website and all you see is the Pricing and they're asking you to pay pay pay which is actually just adding on to the frustration rather than first you tell me what is it that you're going to offer how are you going to solve my problem and that is when I end up testing more on the solutions that you're offering and then go ahead and
purchase rather than you're actually shaking me to make sure that I I I just make a book an appointment and you know do an instant payment or do a token Payment or something of that sort that is only increasing my anxiety and uh you know make otherwise I'm just going to leave the website in that case so I totally understand your point of making sure you're using the right headlines using making sure also like the point where you said it has to be more in terms of bullet points rather than par paragraphs because there have
been websites where in the product description has been so long in fact I Know that that product description is important to me because that's a skin care product but again I'm just too lazy and uh you know laidback in terms of reading that entire description that has been given rather than put it in terms of an infographics or put it in terms of bullets that's easy for me to consume exactly this is um so true and the problem is as a business owner I get this is as well or as a product manager or whatever
You get the curse of knowledge right which means you know about all of the stuff that your product does yes so your target market doesn't usually care and so even those bullets when you're constructing those bullets number one you want it to be in their words how do you find out their words survey them research them on Reddit whatever it is talk to them and find out their language and then when you make make those bullets you want it to be the feature And the benefit like we all know right marketing 101 but what people
leave out is the contextualized benefit so how is this like how does this practically help me so as an example let's talk about like a weight loss drink right because we can all kind of relate to that so the Weight Loss drink has um like aloe vera in it and that's a feature it has aloe vera the benefit of aloe vera is that it sinks into your cells and then you have really soft skin the contextualized Benefit is your boyfriend's going to think oh my gosh your Skin's so beautiful and lovely and want to hug
you and kiss you more or whatever that's the contextualized benefit so that's the difference wherever you can in most cases you want to see how you can um make your copy more concise into bullets like right there's no such thing as copy that's too long just too boring so is it too boring and usually it is right that's what you're saying these long Paragraphs from a even a ux point of view the the the brain switches off your lines of text should only be 11 words long because that's the optimal length for somebody to read
anyway you triggered me I agree I hate long product descriptions make it put a video there make it easy put some pictures some icons exactly I hope for people who are actually optimizing their product pages and are working on content they're listening to this part specifically so That they are using those bullet points in the right manner yeah uh what is the maturity level uh like in B2B and you know Big Ticket b2c companies in Australia regarding you know conversion optimization and how do you deal with clients who are focused on Fast results yeah I
just don't take them on but that's not but I run my own business now and that wasn't the reality when I worked in agencies for 10 years so um And this is the thing right this is where expectation management and setting is so important but when I was a little baby digital marketer um even though I knew my stuff like not not relative to now I struggled to articulate it or I struggled to be confident which would make marketing managers and business owners second guess me and that was very frustrating because I'm trying to do
a good job but you can't do that um when someone's sick guessing you now that's Just like one thing about client management so how do you deal with clients who are focused on Fast results prevention is better than cure so if you're a business like for me in my marketing I don't talk about I'm gonna get you a flot of leads and it's GNA blow your grandma's brains out her ears and you're all going to be millionaires in the Bahamas like I don't tell that because that's poor Management in the marketing so for for everyone
who's Listening if most of you are cro people either internally or you're an agency and if there's clients focused on Fast results you need to be setting their expectations in the onboarding phase what does that mean you need to be educating them how long does it take and then it's that classic thing right um set expectations low and overd deliver that's what you want to do and you want to like you want to get them on the same page and get their Buy in that's what I Believe and I've done cro for CEOs who are
like have these crazy ideas and it's like let's do this like thing and for ages it took me a long time to learn how to manage that and I would just do what they told me to but then I realized no listening to them is like Mal practice I'm the doctor and I but I need to be able to explain why so that pie framework that I was talking about that lets other people have an opinion it's like a suggestion box and then you can Rank them and go unfortunately your idea didn't make it so
yeah clients who went fast results it's on you as the practitioner to educate them that's that like It ultimately is what it is like you have to figure out how to educate them and if they um don't understand cro you can't talk like a cro nerd sorry but you can't talk like how me and you are talking to each other right now right you have to you have to like answer what's in it for them so it's like hey You know what we're not going to nail it every single time what we are going to
do is be making five tests a month or whatever it is and every single test is an opportunity for us to learn what we're trying to do is like find that one big winner where we can knock it out of the park and we're going to have a little series of tests that help us to get there so honestly it's all in how you sell your ideas and how you manage the perception of your clients um so Yeah that's like it's like it's just all about client management that's what I've learned after a thousand clients
extreme ownership manage the perception no I I believe it's the same uh you know case as well because especially C what I've noticed is there's a lot of you know education that still has to be spread across in terms of people who are even you know been there for in C for quite some time and especially for those who are getting Started and two things as you mentioned this expectation settings that has to be there in this case because I've seen clients who you you know right after the first test they are just like okay
my conversion dat did not improve it's like you it's difficult to have that Improvement right and you know with the first test it's more like a test Cricket it's it's a long inning and it's a you know non-stop process because as I said a website can never be perfect So we need to understand make sure that the expectations are set right while in the onboarding phase itself and I really like that point that you said wherein you set the expectations low but you overd deliver right and that that is what brings customer Delight as well
because you give them a real reality check but then you're like boom you have you have got that a couple of tests that have really moved the needle right which was probably not even uh you know in Their expectations so uh I believe this is something that uh C experts should actually look into while setting their expectations with with clients I totally agree to that yeah that's it and it will change your life and trust me I know it's hard it took me many years a lot of frustration a lot of Tears lot of like
like hands on my forehead but eventually you realize it's on you as the practitioner to be able to explain it to a Layman who doesn't understand cro so You have to figure out how to explain it to them and you have to figure out how to get their stakeholder Buy in like it's on you you can't just be frustrated that they don't understand if you want to make your life easy take control and figure out how to explain it to them totally totally uh so Alisha we'll just move to the last part of the podcast
wherein we have a rapid fire round so I have got a set of questions right so cool so I'll just start with the first One so if you're starting a career in sio today what is the one thing that you would do differently what would be the one thing I could do differently if I was starting in I think that every single marketer needs to get better at Psychology I think that a lot of if you study direct response if you study persuasion your life will be a lot easier all of marketing centers around that
whether you like it or not I would have spent more time and I spent a lot But I would have spent more time focusing on that aspect of marketing a newsletter that every CR professional must follow I really enjoy the nudge podcast that talks about like different cognitive biases and little things like that so I think that one I'll leave it yeah I'll say that one the nudge nudge podcast which is also a newsletter is awesome okay three books that you would recommend to our listeners I guess you have already listed one I know yeah
Here's something I prepared earlier you should test that by Chris goard um another one would be because everyone's in um I'm gonna say everyone's probably like a cro nerd like us but because I want everybody to learn more about marketing I would say to explore Dan Kennedy if you understand if you study Dan Kennedy you'll be very very good at what you do and then another really good book that I've read recently in marketing who else's books do I like That I want everyone to read um another great one is Todd Brown's E5 method if
nobody has read that and these these will just um stimulate really good ideas for your tests so the more marketers that you understand the the better you'll be able to do all right uh once you go to travel destination in Australia I know you have been traveling a lot but specifically in Australia probably my favorite place is where we have little weekend getaways is a Country town called dalesford that's in Victoria so it's like somewhat easy to get to very relaxed has good wineries which is which is very important to me and they D F's
very very beautiful in Victoria or um like tqu area which is more Beach so that should cover two two different types of people um country or Beach totally uh I think you're going to hate this one but one thing that AI will replace in the next three Years um Junior positions I think I I'm I really feel like people and that will be a shame I'm really worried about it for digital marketing because we all came up as Juniors right at some point you start as a junior and what I'm very worried about in digital
marketing is that AI will start to replace Juniors and there'll be less footholds that we can all get that we all had that opportunity there's going to be less footholds for people to get their start In the industry as people try and automate and cut costs more uh if not a cro specialist what other profession would you have chosen well funny story when I went to when I finished high school I was actually going to become a dentist and that's what I got um like accepted for and then I randomly ended up having a gap
here and I worked in a call center and I was like business what's this sales this is fun and then I ended up going to UNI the next year for For marketing instead but so I have a feeling in Another Universe I'm taking your teeth out right now that's probably what I'm doing I'm a dentist okay okay I I I I believe this would be very similar in my case as well because right now I'm a customer success manager but I was actually preparing for medical studies in my high school uh but somehow I ended
up in SAS sales and that's from there I moved into marketing and customer success so so I believe It's kind of similar in that case yes exactly it's like you don't choose the marketing life right the marketing life chooses you you kind of fall into it yeah uh one cetric that you wish people should stop obsessing over um conversion rate on on leads and on optins especially on lead magnets and webinars norstar Metric buyers money in the bank that's what we're always optimizing for not everything else can be like um things that you can try
and Optimize but only if it's uh helping that norstar metric of Cash Money fair enough U here's the last one a dream or a goal that you wish to achieve in the next three years in the next three years my big goal that I'm working towards is um just full Financial Independence that's my my last level of Freedom that I'm working towards at the moment great uh so I think that was it Alicia we are right on time it's just One minute left so uh perfect great uh thank you so much for joining in today
it was really pleasure hosting you and you know I look forward to hosting you once again love the coners today awesome thank you for having me [Music]
