This kind of loneliness epidemic where people, despite living right next to one another and seemingly being in a community, still feel a sense of isolation and hopelessness. For me I was creating the communities that I'd like to be part of. .
to talk about climate is to talk about life. There's nothing as connecting as purpose. The power of climate action in terms of loneliness is that we come together on an aligned purpose.
It's impossible to talk about climate change, to talk about environmental injustice, without talking about race injustice. [Music] Welcome to SystemShift, a podcast from Greenpeace International which explores how we can create a better economic system that benefits both people and the planet. The theme of this series is change, and each episode we speak to guests across the world to hear how they're changing the planet for the better.
I'm Yewande Omotoso. I'm a writer, novelist and I work on storytelling at Greenpeace. And I'm Joycelyn London, an environmental justice technologist, writer and educator, working at the intersection of environmental justice and nature technology.
For this episode we're asking the question "are urban communities a remedy for loneliness? ". We'll be looking at how urban communities become solidarity and resistance networks, what those networks are and mean in practice, and how they can tackle a loss of hope during this crisis.
We put a poll on our Instagram page, where we asked people if they felt a sense of community where they lived, and responses were surprisingly pretty balanced, with 37% of people saying yes, 35% saying no, and 28% not being quite sure. We also asked how do you feel after participating in a protest or a collective initiative, and here's what some of you had to say. "That I am not alone in my beliefs.
" "Empowered and inspired. " "I feel united. ” “Connected with love.
" "Hopeful - things can get better" It's interesting, Joycelyn, the results of that poll we put up there's something quite profound about looking at loneliness as a symptom of something deeper in society, and there is, despite the balanced poll there is a lot of research and articles that are talking about this kind of loneliness epidemic, where people, despite living right next to one another and seemingly being in a community, still feel a sense of isolation and hopelessness. And so I'm really curious to see the ways in which forming community around tackling the climate crisis starts to address that epidemic. Can it?
I also feel like okay, is that wishful thinking, is it convenient? We hope it can, or is it deeper than that. So I'm really curious to delve into that with our guest.
Yes, in this episode we're going to be joined by Amanda Costa. A climate activist, young UN ambassador, Amanda runs Perifa Sustentável (Sustainable Periphery), an Institute that mobilises young people in favour of a real and fair sustainable development agenda for Brazil based on racial and environmental justice. Welcome to the podcast Amanda, it's wonderful to have you here and be talking to you.
Thank you so much for this invitation, I am excited and I think the conversation will be amazing. I'm very aware that you are multilingual. I have a few other languages I speak but Portuguese is not one of them, and I wanted to invite you to, Joycelyn if you agree, maybe we could have a lesson from Amanda?
I really want to learn Portuguese so any like even Earth related environmental related phrases would be amazing. Yeah of course I will say a small sentence in Portuguese and then I want you girls should repeat after me. "Este podcast está sendo gravado por três incríveis lindas mulheres negras".
I just said that "this podcast is being recorded by three incredible beautiful black women. " This could be a little bit hard so just lets begin saying "beautiful black women" that is "lindas mulheres negras". Can you say this?
You girls rock, amazing, oh my gosh please come to Brazil please, Brazil needs you. I want to I want to I'll be there, I'll be coming to visit you. It is really truly wonderful to have you here.
I need to say I wanted to learn more about you and I looked around and I was deeply moved by the talk you gave, there's a TED Talk that you gave that I found really moving. But maybe that's a good entry, I guess, into our conversation today. A lot of your work is about peripheries and so maybe a good start is just to understand from you what that means, peripheries, and why is that a focus of yours.
I am the founder of Instituto Perifa Sustentável, and here, our t-shirt Perifa Sustentável means sustainable outskirts, sustainable slum. Here in Brazil we have favelas and a lot of people see favelas as the crime space, a very dangerous space, a poor space. But it isn't just about this.
Favelas are also a place of innovation, creativity, a place of power. So in 2017 climate activism arrived in my life. I was in the University, I took International Relations and I applied for a scholarship, and I was chosen to go to travel to Bonn in Germany and to be part of a Climate Camp.
It was a small delegation in the world YMCA that selects young leaders from all of the world to represent their countries in the United Nations conference. And I was like, oh my God, this is my dream as an International Relations student. And when I was there I start(ed) to feel uncomfortable because I saw a lot of rich people, white men from European countries, talking about how the climate crisis will impact my community, black communities, Indigenous communities, Latin American communities, African communities.
And I was thinking with myself, why am I not speaking why am I not with the microphone in my hands because I have the empirical knowledge, I am facing the climate crisis. So as soon as I came back to Brazil I decided that I will be a climate voice in my country. And in the beginning it was really challenging, because my people, like black people in Brazil, at this time, they didn't want to hear about climate.
They were saying things like "Amanda, really, are you going to speak about climate? ". We are dying because of the poverty, we are dying because of the police, and you're talking about climate.
And I was like, oh my God, how could I make a bridge to show that to talk about climate it's to talk about life, it's to talk about our life. So I think this is the beginning of my activism and I decided, it is possible to be both in the community level and in the international space. Because in this United Nations conference they're talking about our lives, and we want and we need to be part of this discussion.
Amanda, so beautiful. I just really love the passion that you have and also the way that you describe . .
. … you know, a lot of these experiences that especially people of colour in this space have, in trying to balance representing your community and also making change on an international level, whilst facing systems that are partly the reason that your community in the first place is experiencing the disproportionate effects of the climate crisis. I'm really interested in how you received this feedback from the community and you started needing to make this bridge.
In the second year, 2018, I started to be part of "Engagamundo" which means "engaging the world". It's a Brazilian organisation that is empowering young people to be part of the decision making process, and also to lead us to lead our community. So I engaged with "Engagamundo" in 2018, and at the end of this year I travelled to Katowice in Poland to participate in COP 24.
We were in a delegation of 11 people and I was so inspired by my friends, like "we can make the change, let's do it, we rock". So as soon as I came back to my country I remembered that I was like, with a lot of energy in my heart, I want to make change happen, and I know that I need to start in my house. So, I said to my parents, come to my bedroom, the same space that you're seeing right now and I said please, sit on the bed, I need to talk with you.
And they were looking at me with this face, and I said "first of all we need to change, we are part of the solution so we need to change. First, do you know that red meat is part of the climate crisis, so we need to change. We need to change the way that we eat, we need to protect the Earth.
Second, we need to use public transportation, we need to use public transport, we need to be more sustainable. And third, who are the people that you voted for in the last elections? Are you following these decision makers, are you following these politicians?
We need to understand what they are doing and we need to be part of these kinds of conversations. We need to influence them. And you can imagine my parents, they were looking at me like, "what is she talking about"?
And when I finished my mother said "are you done"? And I was like, "I am", and my mother, she looked at me and she said, girl - "se liga, garota! " - it's like a Brazilian (way) to say - "girl shut up", when I was your age I couldn't eat meat because my mother, she couldn't afford it.
I needed to use public transport for a long time in my life. I needed to suffer abuse because I couldn't have a car and a lot of men, they weren't nice on public transport. And now that I have a car you're saying that I cannot use my car!
Girl shut up". And I was, "what is going on"? So I understood that if I want to share the climate ambition and climate values and how to build a more sustainable community, first I need to shut up, shut my mouth and start to listen, start to connect with the reality of my community.
Thank you so much Amanda I mean you're such an inspiration and you tell your story, and it gives me goosebumps. I mean you recount the scene with your parents in your bedroom, there's something really profound about that, because I think you understood intrinsically where you had to start. And we've been having a conversation and that's what this podcast is about, the dichotomy between being an urban dweller, feeling isolated, feeling overwhelmed, maybe by one's condition, one's life one's restrictions.
And then on the other side building a community and being part of a community, and doing this work and taking … these climate actions. And you've told us the story that shows how you traversed that line. And so I think there's a way in which you're such an example and of course I'm sure you know that, but one maybe can't hear that enough.
And you're talking about favelas, what lessons do you learn from this urban community? My parents they worked so hard, so that I could go to the University, so that I could travel, that I could have the basic needs to invest in my education. So I kind of disconnect from the reality of my community.
So I need to come back so this symbol on my t-shirt "Sankofa" (which) means to come back and learn with people who are our ancestors. So I start to stop talking and I start to listen, I start to talk with people in my neighbourhood. I start to understand that we are talking about the same thing but we are using other words, because I was not talking Portuguese with them, I was talking in technical ways, I was talking about what the European vision of a sustainable future means.
And when I understood this I realised that I need to talk about the capitalist system, I need to listen first and I need to make connections to show the common problem that is climate change. And it's impossible to talk about climate change, to talk about environmental injustice without talking about race injustice, because in Brazil, the reality is these issues, they are connected. We are a country that faced slavery, exploitation and colonisation, so we need to understand this background to promote an inclusive view about these issues.
How does your work within urban communities, within informal communities, link to environmental action and how do you make that connection? With Perifa Sustentável Institute I'm really proud of my organisation because Perifa Sustentável was born in 2019, and at this time, in this period, I realised that I need to do something. I was part of Engagamundo but in the Brazilian reality, who are the people who can do volunteer work?
Who are the people who have time, people who do not need to work to have their basic needs? It's not the reality of black people in Brazil. So it was in the same period that I figured out that I am black, and you could say "how didn't you know that you were black"!
And I was like, it's a shame, no because my mother, she's white and my father, he is black and I didn't have racial literacy when I was a kid. So it's kind of weird because I figured out myself as a climate activist before I figured out myself as a black girl. And I started to feel uncomfortable in the climate space, because I started to look at people and I was the only black girl in that space, and they were talking about black people, Indigenous people and how the climate crisis will impact impoverished communities, and I was like "this what people are talking about, my reality".
And when I understood all of this I understood that I should create something to my people. So I decided to create a project and in the beginning Perifa Sustentável was a project to democratise the climate debate in vulnerable communities. I was doing a lot of actions in my neighbourhood, I was promoting virtual spaces to talk about environmentalism and blackness, because at this moment, in my reality in Brazil it was like, whoa, it's possible to relate climate and blackness?
I was speaking with people who are in the decision making space, people who have money, people who can afford the change, and one of these connections told me, "Amanda you should create an organisation". It was amazing because I could show young people how to do climate advocacy, how to learn more about the climate crisis. So much of your work is right in the work of making connections, this thing of these intersections, and it's really profound how you understood, just through through, particularly the conversation with your parents, that you can't talk environmental justice and not talk racial justice, not talk gender, not talk .
. . these things are connected, that's what makes it real.
You know it's not about, as you said, the rich white folk sitting at a desk somewhere. These are real issues and I'm sort of quoting you because you talked about how you wrote an article called "the climate crisis is not a rich white man's thing" so that's why I was referring to that, you talked about that in a piece you wrote. You know it's interesting for me that you crossed that line, you have other problems, but you're deeply embedded in community, in making community, in being community and doing that work.
We asked a question to our listeners and we said, "how many people feel as if they're part of a community? ". There are a lot of studies at the moment about loneliness as an epidemic, particularly I would say, not only, but particularly amongst the youth, and it was interesting the survey came back with different results.
It was actually almost like a third, a third, a third. But there were a third of people who felt that they didn't feel a sense of any community. So a third said yes we are, a third said no we're not and then a third was, well we feel neither here nor there.
I just wanted to you to talk a little bit about the feeling of being part of a community, if this is something you have grappled with yourself, if it's something you have encountered in the people that work with you and in your movement, and how the work you do, which is very much grounded in grassroots, how it is a force for change. You know why this work is so powerful and why it's a force for change. Amazing, so I think my generation is having a hard time to feel part of a community, because we are under the capitalist system, and globalization, and neoliberalism.
And what does it mean in practical ways? It means that the neoliberal system said to us that "oh do you want to be successful in life? You need to have things, you need to buy, you need to have a huge house, you need to have an amazing car, you need to make a lot of trips, you need to be on the beach, you need to go to another country, you need to take photos and share on your Instagram".
It's hard to feel part of a community because we are under this kind of system and people, they are not talking with others anymore. For me I think Engagamundo, the Brazilian NGO, was the first community that I could see myself, because, you have no idea, it was a lot of young people with a lot of energy saying we can make the change, we are part of the solution, it was like, yes we can! So I think it was being with them gave me this power to build this same environment in my local reality.
Because Engagamundo is all of Brazil, a lot of States, so my friends at Engagamundo they were virtual and I understood that this is the community that I want to be part of. What more? So I realise that I am black, I want to be more with black people.
I see myself as an activist so I want to be with activists. For me I was creating the communities that I'd like to be part of, I was intentionally searching these communities, and asking to be part of, like black people - people who have the same skin colour as me. We were slaves, we were working for free, so now we are in vulnerable areas, we are in marginalized communities, we need to face a lot of problems to be on the same level as white people, so it's not your fault.
But it can be a little bit vague to say, oh it's the system's fault. So I like to talk about solutions. How can we solve this problem?
We need public policies especially for black people, especially for single mothers, especially for black kids. We need to work with politicians to solve this challenge but, another challenge, who are the politicians in Brazil? White rich men that do not advocate for black.
people. Thank you Amanda, I mean you've just described so many issues that of course are specific to Brazil but are replicated in so many places around the world. I'd be really interested to know, because this episode is all about community and how community can actually support us with all of this pain that we're experiencing, how community can be a source of mutual support?
How can we, and what can we do to foster the sense of community outside of these systems of oppression in order to provide that support for ourselves, in order to provide that support for each other, for people who are feeling this isolation, or feeling or experiencing this discrimination? How is it that we can build community, build strong communities, build solidarity and resistance? So this is the question of my life, if you know the answer please let me know because it's hard!
I don't know, I am doing my best, but I think in my opinion the solution is in the grassroots, is in the community. We cannot wait - "oh this politician will save my life, this white saviour", no, he will not come. So I think one way to build a strong community is we need to understand the local problems and we need to understand how we can solve these local problems at a local level.
I give you an example, here in my community Brasilândia we are facing a lot of floods. Many people, they lose everything because of the floods. And when I was a kid I faced floods so many times, my kitchen used to be under water because of the rains.
No, it's not because of the rains - in Portuguese you say "não é culpa da chuva", no, it's not the rain's fault. It's not. It's the lack of urban planning for vulnerable communities.
So I think one thing that we need to do to build a strong community is stay together. My grandmother she used to help my mother with the floods a lot, and I remember one night I woke up in the middle of the night, it was raining a lot, I listen to my mother crying, she was in the kitchen, and she was talking and she was saying to my grandmother, "I cannot do anymore I cannot do anymore it's horrible I cannot do anymore". And my grandmother she was taking the water (out) of the kitchen and she says "Hey, Gisleide (the name of my mother), that's okay I am with you, you're not alone, we can do this together, you're not alone".
And these episodes marked my life, because if my mother would be just by herself she would stay in our kitchen crying and crying and crying. But she had the help of my grandmother, and so I think the first step to build a strong community is (to) stay together, is to have the support of our family, our neighbours, our friends, and understand that we don't need to face by ourselves our problems, we don't need to face them alone. The second point is, we need to develop a more inclusive communication, because we need to put people together, we need to understand how to communicate with each person, what each person is facing in the moment, and develop empathy with their problems and show that we have a common goal, because the problem of a friend is not just his problem.
If he is my friend it will be my problem, if he's part of my community it's not his problem, it's the problem of a community. And the third step, in my opinion, we need to develop a common plan to face the challenge together. If we stay together, if you will learn how to communicate, and if we develop a common goal, a common play to face the challenge, I think this is the beginning of creating a strong community.
Thank you so much Amanda, I mean those points are so key and I think can be generalised and implemented by people in so many different communities, so thank you so much for your contributions and for telling us your story, and for sharing your story with us, it's really inspiring, thank you so much. Thank you. I always find it so heartening to meet people like Amanda it was great to just connect with her, and someone who's so empowered by or generated by the mission.
I think what I then hear in, let's say, community action and around climate change is that it's an opportunity for connection, and of course there's nothing as connecting as purpose. You know I'm loving this idea that it's the power of the climate action in terms of loneliness, is that we come together on an aligned purpose and there's an outcome. And I just feel like listening to what she's doing and what it's taking is so hopeful in its nature.
It's interesting because she's an individual talking about the activism work she's doing, but also very clear about the ways in which the system contributes to the problem, and so much of her work is about shifting the system, it makes it feel available, it really makes it feel like it's to hand. It doesn't feel easy, because one can tell what it takes for her to do her work, but it certainly makes it feel available and I come away from the conversation feeling really hopeful, having a clear sense of how change is happening, and can happen, and is happening in my lifetime and what it looks like, and what it can continue to look like. Yeah I think it's really important that she brought in those stories of despair or those moments when she was describing her mum's feelings of despair about being on the front lines of the climate crisis.
Or when we talk about community it's not that action is lacking in challenges or in tribulations, it's the fact that the only way that we can get through, and we have to go through, is to be in community with with each other, is to provide that sense of support with each other, and that change happens despite setbacks. And it kind of reminded me of one of my favourite quotes from Donella Meadows which is that "there's too much good news for complacency" … but wait . .
. "there's there's too much bad news for complacency, but there's too much good news for despair", and I think at the heart of her story, of Amanda's story, is that so much change happens, can happen, must happen, and will happen, despite the challenges that we face, and that we can get through that together. And we can zoom in or zoom out of that in many different directions, like we can speak about the challenges of the climate crisis globally, but also of the challenges that we face in our local environment as well, and I think that it's great to have that hope that's not void of understanding, that this change happens despite overwhelm, despite despair.
The role of language again, for me, comes up in the conversation with Amanda. When when the time comes for some of the change making, she's having a conversation with her parents, or she's learning that, okay, this is not how to communicate if I want to bring change. It seems like it happened instinctively, but she really landed in the very heart of the whole issue, which is how do we talk about this in a way that doesn't alienate, terrify, you know have people dismiss.
And she just landed right into the centre of that and I guess that's become her life's work. Yeah it's beautiful, and I think a real lesson there about change is that change happens through genuine connection, not through a disconnected idea of what we're supposed to be, who we're supposed to be, or how we're supposed to act, but that change happens in our lifetime because of the connections that we create with other people and our ability to see them and to meet them where they are, as they see us, and meet us where we are at the same time. and I think that's beautiful.
At the end of each of these episodes we always like to leave you with an idea about how you can get into action and get involved and, in terms of this topic we've had, there are many different ways. You might be somebody who - you are living in the city, you are experiencing this sense of isolation, you look around you, you notice that there are things that aren't working. You see the effects of the oppressive system that you live within perhaps, and you're confronted by that, but also feel, in a way powerless, or just like you're just this one person.
What are some ways, maybe, to start to feel a sense of community and connect with others around the things that matter to you. Joycelyn, I wonder if you want to throw in some ideas there. Yeah, I think there are many really easy introductory ways to start to get a sense of community, and I'm pretty sure most communities will have one of these offerings.
There might be a local environmental group, maybe you live near a particular . . .
there might be local council groups that are protecting particular areas, like for example where I live in Cambridge there's the Friends of Paradise Woodland which is a community of people who volunteer and look after, clean, maintain this very small protected woodland or you might live near a river. There might be a local initiative working to protect a local natural resource. There might be a local group also tackling the climate crisis on a wider scale, so maybe setting up protests, working together to create policy or resist systems of oppression within your local area.
So check out your local community boards on Google, you can do a quick search and you're sure to find something. But I want to mention here that the climate crisis, environmental crisis are not just individual issues. We can all compost and protect, and plant as much as we want and this does materially change and shift the systems that we live in locally.
But there's a need to also tackle and resist systems of oppression on a larger scale that really limit us from making the change that we want to. You know we can't make all of the change that we need on the local level. We also need to make change on a national and a global level [Music] Thank you for listening to this episode of SystemShift.
In our next episode we're asking the question "AI is changing elections; how can we protect democracy?
