Carl Jung: The REAL REASON for Nietzsche's Madness

We first discussed n's Infamous aphorism entitled The Madman way back in the early days of the podcast I think episode three this is the aphorism that contains nich's famous declaration that God is dead that all that man once aspired to all that man once saw as his Noble ideal all that anchored us and gave meaning to our lives and the suffering within our lives That great idea of God would not survive modernity fora this is the most momentous and calamitous of events but it is above all the blunt reality our situation in the modern world

is that we have to move on from the Christian God and create ourselves a new in the light of that knowledge that we must impart meaning to our own lives craft new ideals anchor our understanding of Reality by new means the entire revaluation of values takes Place in the wake of God's death and it's only really comprehensible as a response to God's death this is why it's such a foundational Concept in approaching n his whole mature philosophy exists in the aftermath of the death of God and I would dare say that it would be incoherent

for anyone who has not perceived this n's answer to this challenge is also taken up by Freud you 's former Mentor for both n and Freud the looming end of Christianity That was enfolding in modernity was truly the end of Christianity the answer was psychology a grounding of our understanding of mankind in naturalistic terms for whatever their differences both n and Freud would argue that the only way out is forward uh a return to the mental framework of a mythological past does not seem to be an option for the modern man n writes not in

favor of a romantic return but an active nihilism a critique Of all modern values the full recognition of the way in which the highest values have devalued themselves this lays waste with the whole field of moral ideas but that may clear the way for new possibilities myths May ever remain a profound source of meaning but n and Freud see in the gods evidence of one's physiological drives in impulses where Yung differs is that he sees in one's physiological impulses the evidence of the Gods yung in effect Comes to the opposite conclusions of Freud that the

significance found in myth and religion is so profound that we ought to understand psychology in terms of myth rather than attempt to psychologize away the apparent significance of myth yung's judgment his evaluation of the situation for the modern man is profound and and it's radical Yung perceives that these archetypal subcomplexes seem to appear independently of tradition or Culture and he argues that we should treat them precisely in accordance with all that this discovery demands that is treat the archetypes as independent definite entities real beings Spirits so to speak perhaps even deities at least that's the

way they would have been understood mythologically and given that they do seem to appear independent of these factors of culture or upbringing uh is just further evidence Of the fact that they should be afforded this kind of respect or awe Yung sees the ways in which the modern lexicon for understanding ourselves for understanding the psyche has become impoverished how it has overestimated the ego overestimated uh the benign nature of man or the goodness of man overestimated the power of rationality in all of these respects he agrees with n but Yung draws attention To the fact

that the mindset of people who lived in the ages of so-called Mythic thinking was far closer to the truth of the self than our modern essentialist view of the ego Consciousness as this arbitrary rational ruler yung's work with schizophrenic patients his study of Dreams and his Torah of the world's religions this had all convinced him that there was a concrete truth to religion that could not simply be handwaved away uh perhaps We could say at the very least a concrete usefulness or utility to religion that it was our only way to confront the numinous the

mysterious the most important events of Life coming of age self- transformation passing into death and so on and so forth it is the very fact that Yung can easily observe in his patience uh that they unconsciously employ religious symbolism this convinces him that in fact God is not dead in the sense that N Means this utterance that we may have the pretentions of having done away with God but perhaps this only really applies in the realm of the rational intellect that now lives in a sort of mechanistic world but in the unconsciousness God lives on

the gods still are the uh set of symbols that we use to express that type of thinking and so it seems almost incredible that nche a man who was suspicious of the powers of the Intellect and emphasized the relative dominance of the unconscious part of the psyche could have construed the death of God as some sort of objective event or objective happening because after all such an event has only happened in the terms understood by the ego Consciousness and its representations of reality that is to say that the Divine is part of the independently Living

World of spirits that exists in the collective unconsciousness which is Larger and more complex than any mask which the Consciousness gives to it that we have often times changed our symbols for the Divine in accord with the perception of the age but this Transfiguration from one symbol to another is not indic ative of the final death and Repose of the Divine as such but part of a cycle of death and rebirth which is itself part of that Divine language God is part of our inner life a self bigger than the ego with its Pretentions to

total freedom God in one form or another May slip away from us one Divine symbol autonomously departs from our sight but Yung writes about this quote because this inner life is intrinsically free and not subject to our will and intentions it may easily happen that the living thing Chosen and defined by us will drop out of its setting the man-made image even against our will then perhaps we could say with N God is dead yet it would be truer to say he has put off our image and where shall we find him again the interregnum

is full of danger for the natural facts will raise their claim in the form of various isms which are productive of nothing but Anarchy and destruction because inflation and man's hibrus between them have elected to make the ego with all its ridiculous paltriness lord of the universe that was the case with n the Uncomprehended portent of a whole Epoch end quote Yung here references the fact that n predicted massive violence and the rise of new political ideologies as attempts to Grapple with the coming nihilism this is the great prophecy of niches that concerns the history

of the coming two centuries as he says which have often filled later interpreters of n with Terror and wonder as we're all struck in the present day with how Accurate n's predictions were the isms in light of retrospective analysis would of course be communism Nazism these outbursts within the interregnum uh the meaning of that word is the period between Kings usually a time of unrest or Civil War to use the language of myth when one Old King meets his downfall there's a period in which there's a great danger the society finds itself beyond the protection

uh of a perceived order to the world and another King must rise up to take charge of the Kingdom still yung's remarks about n's egotism are biting it's striking that a man who disparaged the ego Consciousness so much much who had so little regard for its pretentions would nevertheless be for all intents and purposes so egotistical so confident in his own strength to endure hard truths and live in the moral ideological desert beyond the approval of the collective and so on uh Yung continues in the same passage Quote the individual ego is much too small

its brain is much too feeble to incorporate all the projections withdrawn from the world ego and brain burst aunder in the effort the psychiatrist calls it schizophrenia when n said God is dead he uttered a truth which is valid for the greater part of Europe people were influenced by it not because he said so but because it stated a widespread psychological fact the consequences were Not long delayed after the fog of isms the catastrophy nobody thought of drawing the slightest conclusions from n's pronouncement yet it has for some ears the same Eerie sound as that

ancient cry which came echoing over the sea to Mark the end of the nature Gods great pan is dead end quote the story that Yung references here is a strange one it's a sort of fable that comes to us through the historical record it almost reads like a Rumor or just a a strange story that was bandied about the the uzo bar in ancient Greece but um it's an example of what Yung called synchronicity where events which are seemingly unrelated in terms of causality uh in terms of the material world are nevertheless related in terms

of their underlying meaning they're related in a deeper way than our rationality can explain we find this story in yung's notes from a seminar on n's zarathustra Given in the 1930s the background context of the conversation is yung's assessment of n what he calls n's inflation with an archetype in this case with zarathustra in yung's view any one of the archetypes can become inflated meaning that within the community of drives impulses subc complexes within one's unconscious the one particular complex begins swallowing up a great deal of Energy growing larger than the others literally becoming inflated

you can use that image and eventually the inflation reaches a point where the individual begins to consciously identify with the archetype it becomes a kind of usurpa persona to where it becomes so big that it it it swells to include the ego Consciousness within it so this is an excerpt from that seminar quote Dr Yung for tanicha the world was always Exceedingly dull nobody had ears or eyes or a feeling heart so he had to knock at the doors with a sledgehammer but when people locked the doors he attacked them with such fearful words that

they became frightened his contemporary yob Burkhart the famous historian grew quite afraid when he read zarathustra as I know from people in bosle who were acquainted with them both it was uncanny to him it was the language that overcame him he shut the Door to nche because he was too Troublesome he made too big a noise and one always has the impression in Reading zarra that it does not really Reach people nche felt that too and therefore he increased the weight of it in order to make it sink in if only he would wait be

a bit more patient a bit less noisy than it would sink in certain passages in sarra are of supreme Beauty but others are in very bad taste and the effect of the whole is somewhat Endangered by that style those are the main reasons for it then but there is still another point which explains the extraordinary weight of zarathustra Mrs Adler it is because the aspirations or intuitions are not quite real and therefore they need a particular emphasis as it were against n as if he were preaching to himself in the first place Dr Yung that

is a very subtle point of view it is surely a valid Argument since there is plenty of evidence that what we would call realization had not taken place Mrs Baines I don't understand what Mrs Adler means by they not being quite real to him Dr Yung it would mean in this case not quite realized as a matter of fact when there is an inflation by an archetype there is no realization one cannot realize the thing by which one is inflated first the inflation must have come to an end and then one may realize Not before

Dr reichstein perhaps it was because nche was against the whole world so he had to knock very hard Dr Yung yes that is quite certain n was in a sort of fighting position against the whole contemporary world and it gave him a peculiar feeling of inefficiency that his words reached nowhere no Echo anywhere that really was the case nobody cared his was the voice of one shouting In the wilderness and so naturally he would increase his voice instead of lowering it you see when one is not understood one should as a rule lower one's voice

because when one really speaks loudly enough and is not heard it is because people don't want to hear one had better begin to mutter to oneself then they get curious end quote uh so lots of very uh clever remarks from Yung and his colleagues in this excerpt from the seminar But uh yung's main criticism here is actually an attack on the style of zarro which is interesting some passages are beautiful others in bad taste and he sees this as a result of n forcing certain things and one of yung's students suggests that this forcing is

a result of the fact that n may not have fully realized the truths contained in the book that he is preaching to himself as much as to everyone else is the way they put it Yung believes this is a valid point of view on n's work and it is a variation on the common refrain among n's critics that n himself was not a hard immoral tyrannical kind of man by all accounts he was a kind moral gentleman well didn't n say that one does not have a quote unquote right to all truths and that for

this very reason that truth can't be regarded as universal perhaps it was the case that n himself did not have a right to every Last truth that he wrote in Thus Spoke zarathustra and so the Yan uh view of the situation would be this is because as the archetype is inflating itself and taking over n psyche he as the whole subject is not actually coming into the realization of the truths known by the archetype he does not gain a right to them to use nich's language uh just merely on the basis of the archetypal inflation

there're still the truths of someone else because zarathustra is Operating as a kind of autonomous subpersonality at this point and so perhaps because zarathustra sort of confronts n with certain ideas perhaps his most dangerous Blasphemous or harsh ideas that n himself does not fully believe and by this we mean does not fully realize in his life maybe he does not live these ideas he does not have a right to them perhaps his work is forced in some places or it feels forced the Style because he's preaching to himself trying to get himself to adopt ideas

that are not really his and you know the way n talks about the experience of writing Zorra he says that the ideas just sort of flashed before him like lightning that this truly was a book written by a muse he often uses that language in talking about it and so there is somewhat of a basis in the textual evidence for yung's position here and in my view this is the most Biting thing that Yung says because it's a criticism not just of nich's ideas but of his style in a work that is it must be

said perhaps the most vulnerable to that kind of criticism this is not an arbitrary critique it flows out of an underlying charge that this the failures in N Style wherever they arise on Zorra wherever he becomes excessive whenever he's yelling too loudly right that comes directly out of his failure to fully integrate himself and his personality There's a real Psychopathology going on that forced n to force the issue but uh we're going to continue a little further with this seminar because after this the discussion turns to the use of Christian language and symbolism within thus

book zarra and Yung levies the charge that we've considered already the use of Christian language and symbolism was necessary for n precisely because of what n felt he had lost in The death of God Yung brings up that the parallel style to that of the gospels was a conscious choice and that therefore n on some level knew that he was seeking for what could only be given by religion what he only known before in the language of the gospels the conversation is quite extensive in analyzing n but the key point of discussion is that Yung

sees n as somebody Carried Away by the power of an arc typal Force zarathustra is Electric he's full of passion he's completely overwhelming for n who writes of himself as a kind of instrument at times uh Nicha sees himself in the way that he writes about um in the zarra's prologue mankind being a bridge and not a goal n himself is a bridge and not a goal he uh himself is stretched between animal and Overman he sees his job as bringing forward something that will bear fruit in the far off future in the present all

we can do is sacrifice to it For Yung these very ideas are telltale signs of inflation that the personality is becoming dominated by a complex to which everything is being sacrificed and so the result is that n in his actual life becomes a solitary lonely figure his uh his real life suffers because of his philosophy he's alienated from all around him from his family his religion eventually from from his friends from the Vagner from his fellow academics and he writes a Philosophy which sets itself at odds with uh quote The Herd right so why would

n so strongly set himself as the individual in this eternal struggle against the collective back to the seminar and this is the the part that contains the strange folk tale that I referenced earlier but they begin by analyzing one of the first scenes from the spok arthus so we'll get back to the folk tale a bit back to the seminar quote Dr Yung yes he is no longer in touch with the world and that Christianity has left the world is exactly the reason why zarathustra is born again he must come back because the spirit he

created and left behind him has evaporated you see that is a repetition of the very important psychological fact that when Christ died he left behind him or promised according according to the Dogma the paraclete the comforter which is the spirit like The Descent of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost that is the aftermath of the Christian Revelation the spirit left by the appearance of Christ on Earth his appearance was like a bursting shell that leaves the spirit trailing after it remains for a while and then slowly recedes into the background again end quote and so Yung

then ties the paraclet one of those names for the Holy Spirit the comforter the advisor or the the counselor uh to the old man in the forest the old priest The old aesthetic that zarathustra meets in the forest at the very beginning of zarathustra's prologue and uh so Yung then quotes from n from Thus Spoke zarra quote go not to men but stay in the forest go rather to the animals why not be like me a bear amongst Bears a bird amongst Birds and what doeth the saint in the forest asked zarathustra the saint answered

I make hymns and sing them and in making hymns I laugh and weep and Mumble thus do I Praise God end quote and Dr Yung then continues in the seminar quote well the old anchorite spirit is now receding he makes a regression having understood that nothing was to be done with these human beings he becomes quite skeptical and thinks it best to worship His God in nature to be a bear with with bears and a bird with birds to imitate the animal voices again to sing as a bird would sing so he is isolated in

his wood a sort of pinioned pericet on pinchon at Least the new spirit is now a Christ therefore the analogy of zarathustra with Christ he comes down from the mountains with new hopes new expectations and a new message to man and he passes the old fellow and the new message which the old man does not know of is that God is dead you see to the anchorite God is active he still believes that there is a God outside of him but zarathustra is convinced that there is no God outside of him God is Dead Mrs

Balman it corresponds with the death of pan 200 years ago Dr Yung exactly one reads in Old Latin literature that 2,000 years ago the captain of a boat sailing from The Grecian Islands to AA the harbor of Rome demanded an immediate interview with the emperor in order to report a most remarkable event which had taken place when he was sailing through the archipelago he had passed in the night An island where there was an extraordinary noise he heard people shouting pan megistos ethnan pan the greatest is dead pan was the philosophic god of those days

originally he had been a Latin local god of the fields and the woods a sort of midday demon with no philosophical or or Universal importance whatever only later when they learned Greek did they see that the name of the old Latin God pan was the same as the Greek word pan which Means all the universe so they had new ideas about their old pan he became the god of the world then about the 2 Century ad rumors spread that pan the greatest was dead Christianity had prevailed against him the last conception of a nature God

created by Antiquity and when the God is dead it means the end of an Epoch therefore the great emphasis laid upon that story in this chapter then we have watched the way in which the spirit of a Whole historical Epoch recedes disappears into nature and how at the same time it is renewed in a new figure with a new message yet it is still the same old figure The Same Spirit that taught mankind the difference between good and evil is now informing us of the fact that there is no difference and that God is dead

end quote I think that's a powerful critique that Yung makes that God is dead yes because the death of God is a recurring Event and in a way by pointing to the ever recurring nature of this event Yung is approaching nich's own proclamation in a very nian way that even if we grant that this is a European event a grand historical event of the belief in the Christian God becoming something Unworthy of belief this is nothing new no more than when n laments the fall of the tragic worldview the death of that old Empire of

the Mind governed by Apollo and dionis and the harsh Tragedies and the life affirming Olympians that was the world that is last presided over by Pan the world of the antia morale where the forces of nature were perceived as autonomous Gods pan was simply yet another divinity laid in the grave and for Yung he tied this belief to the astrological ages the notion that Christianity was the age of Pisces the two fish this is the age in which God comes to reconcile with his wayward children Mankind uh you know the fish is the symbol of

Jesus Christ dating from the period of the early Christians before Christianity however the Greco Roman period was the age of Aries the ram this is a warlike age uh an age governed by divinities that have the horns of sheep and goats and Rams and Aries quite literally is the name of one of the Greek gods and he's a war God but even before this there's the age of Taurus the Bull and what deities do we see as Characteristic of the period of the early Bronze Age well figure such as inana Ishtar aarte the bll of

Heaven uh the pastoralist beginnings of civilization sort of governed by the imagery of cows and bus and fertility goddesses we can set aside whatever metaphysical importance that someone might uh think to attribute to the turnings of the astrological epochs but we might simply note on a more basic level lots of gods and Deities have come into being in the human psyche and then fallen out of worship and that these images of God all have their time but then reede into the background of Consciousness um you know th those are the long list of deities that

atheists will site as the gods that every modern theist is an atheist in regard to that's a common argument but for Yung that's no great argument for atheism he would argue yes and yet the gods always return don't they the fact That there have been so many religions that people have been atheistic towards might you know score you some debate points against an individual religion but it actually goes pretty far towards establishing the value of religion as such or at least that human beings seem condemned to this way of thinking and that pointing to the

fact that we are becoming an atheist in regard or we are all becoming atheists in regard to the latest deity is not at all IND Indicative that we are about to enter an age of atheism as such uh you can look at the deaths of all these past divine images in those two very different ways that either the Divine is always dying or the Divine is always being resurrected and we cannot help but notice the central religious motif of Christianity and indeed many world religions before Christianity is that of death and Resurrection perhaps no religion

other than Christianity is better suited uh to take on the idea of their own God dying and then resurrecting it's based on the faith that their God came to Earth died and then lived again and so in a sense we can see n's proclamation of the death of the Christian God as a mirror image to those shrieks that were heard from that Mysterious Island 2,000 years ago that pan is dead but this of course raises a Serious question considering that n sought to revitalize the spirit of the Greek morality then it ought to be possible

to revitalize the spirit of the Christian morality if the Christian God ever lived it's because pan is dead and if nche thinks that pan can live again then certainly so could Jesus Christ n's insistence on the finality of the Christian God's death but his implicit Desire to see Pan live again is a huge contradiction in his approach to these ideas but perhaps uh the more insightful observation in my my opinion aside from any specific criticism of n's ideas that y may be making there's a rather straightforward underlying truth in the unconscious God religion all the

symbolism and sentiments of religion these remain Humanity European or otherwise has not even come close to uh moving on from These religious symbols this entire religious way of thinking even n himself living in the darkness after God assassination finds a kind of psychopomp in his character zarathustra he is the wise old man the prophet of the ancient world and what he comes to teach mankind are actually truths that mankind has already known since time in Memorial Zorra teaches that the self is something larger than the ego he teaches that good and evil are relative and

Interdependent that one must be reconciled to uh even Embrace their fate with an eye toward the eternality of their Destiny these kinds of assertions have been the stuff of religious talk for thousands of years zerust is a figure that comes from n's unconscious returning him to the most religious of language and metaphor and drawing him inexorably into the world of myth and religion and so yung's great rebuke to n is that his fundamental assertion is That a return to the Mythic is precisely what we need as the Curative of the excessive materialization and mechanization of

reality even patients who are undergoing a completely secular form of self- transformation speak in such religious language about the uh experience Yung argues that people use the language of I returned to myself I could accept myself I was reconciled to myself self and he says this is what we used to say by uh Expressing I have made my peace with God I've submitted myself to the will of God I've surrendered my will to the plan of God and so on and so forth and so Yung sees the key application of religious thought primarily in the

realm of psychology he sees how religion is the central anchoring structure reigning over the psyche one might suggest that it's quite possibly an innovation that we now speak of the self and not God in terms of all the statements that Yung Reports his patients making but Yung would say that's a distinction without a difference that unconsciously the ideal complete self that we seek is identical to the idea of God and that in both cases we would be describing the same thing and that all we we just can't we have to acknowledge that fundamental truth that

religion seems to be an orienting Force for the mind it seems seems to have that psychological function that seems to be the value of Religion is psychological but in spite of this need for a sort of religious order a kind of understanding of our place of existence the meaning and purpose of existence uh which has always been the north star of the human mind we have through excessive scientism now thought that such things can be done away with and for Yung the proof that this is a bad idea is n himself this is the man

who went so far beyond the Christian metaphysics and morality and yet was not by his inclination a positivist or an atheist Yung says straight out n completely accepted the death of God and tried to see what we should do beyond that but he himself was no atheist n feels the despiration of the world very strongly and he experiences its effects before anyone else the atheists in n's own time are quite literally like the atheists in the marketplace when the madman makes his Declaration they've become unaware of the religious framework by which the human mind is

organized they don't believe themselves uh to be suceptible to it they think that their thought exists Beyond it Yung believes that this demystification of the world occurred gradually and initially it was for quite a worthy purpose The Sciences are are a worthy Endeavor because the gaps of human knowledge are always filled with projection and such a world is a chaotic World when uh your world becomes ruled by projections so to speak when you're in a world you don't understand science has been our way of taming the world in that way uh the science has become

the new expression of the pre-existent order behind the chaos of Life n himself was rather insightful to give this scientism its own Wise Old Man its own magician who is Socrates The Death of Socrates is another repeated Motif in n's writing Which is particularly interesting in the light of yian analysis Socrates is the Wise Old King who represents the positivist worldview uh in in many ways he has as much of a modern problem for n as he is an ancient Greek problem he inevitably must drink his poison as a form of martyrdom for the truth

scientism is a kind of Eternal religious project but one which never manages to become the final state of the Soul because when you totalize the value of SC scientism it is deadly so um yung in his essay psychology and religion writes the following quote Consciousness can hardly exist in a state of complete projection at most it would be a heap of emotions through the withdrawal of projections conscious knowledge slowly developed science curiously enough began with the discovery of astronomical laws and hence with the withdrawal so to speak of the most distant projections this was the

first stage in the Despiration of the world one step followed another already in Antiquity the gods were withdrawn from mountains and rivers from trees and animals modern science has subz its projections to an almost unrecognizable degree but our ordinary life swarms with them you can find them spread out in the newspapers in books rumors and ordinary social gossip all gaps in our actual knowledge are still filled with projections end quote and further down Yung continues Quote the materialistic error was probably unavoidable at first since the Throne of God cannot be discovered among the galactical systems

the inference was that God never existed the second unavoidable error is psychologism if God is anything he must be an illusion derived from certain motives from Will To Power for instance or from repressed sexuality these arguments are not new much the same thing was said by the Christian missionaries who overthrew the Idols of heathen Gods but whereas the early missionaries were conscious of serving a new God by combating the old ones modern iconoclasts are unconscious of the one in whose name they're destroyed in Old values end quote so we should take note Yung brings up

two of his predecessors In this passage but not by name n and Freud men who say that God is an illusion derived from certain motives one could read NES on the old and new tablets And Thus Spoke zarra which I'm almost certain is what Yung is thinking of here especially given that he references the Smashing of old tablets a bit further in the paragraph which we'll get to in a moment but important in that passage Zorra tells us every people has had its sacred values all of which have been different and all of which have

actually expressed the will to power of a people he says that they defined their sacred values by differentiating themselves from their Neighbors seeking an altogether different form of the good than their neighbor sought for that the many different gods therefore are imagistic expressions of a particular way of expressing power and that therefore the Idols of man don't refer to anything metaphysical but are simply the representation of a psychological need Freud's explanation is that we believe in God because of in so many words Terror management Theory From my own understanding Freud basically thought that the root

of God belief was prior to anything rational it's simply a way of dealing with an indifferent uncaring existence nevertheless Freud had quite a bit to say about God the father in so far as God in the way that God is portrayed in our sort of cultural images as the wise old man with the beard that is somewhat indicative of an infantile regression to a state where one wants to Be cared for by Daddy so here as with everything in Fry there's an influence of one's psychosexual family dynamics that continually recreates the image of God the

father in the words of Christopher Hitchens quote N said God is dead Freud said God is Dad end quote I've been waiting to quote that one for probably the whole podcast uh but Yung calls this an error he calls it psychologism to reduce Everything down to being merely psychology that's not yung's task yung's task is the opposite not to regard psychological phenomena as merely or simply or just whenever we insert those sorts of words we're saying it's insignificant rather yung's task is to understand psychological phenomena as being as significant as our myths as significant as

our religious ideas uh to see some common Essence to The disciplines of religion and psychology uh so his criticism of both Freud and N here as iconoclasts is that they do not know or are not conscious of the new gods that they are serving as they bring forth this anti-christian age n might think I'm restoring Greek vales but is that what n actually did is that what he's actually doing have we seen that effect in the collective psyche as a result of n's work have Greek values been restored So Yung continues quote nche thought himself

quite conscious and responsible when he smashed the old tablets yet he felt A peculiar need to back himself up with a revivified Zorra a sort of alter ego with whom he often identifies himself in his great tragedy of thus Boke zarra nche was no atheist but his God was dead the result of this demise was a split in himself and he felt compelled to call the other self Zorra or at times Dionis in his fatal illness he signed his letters zagas the dismembered god of the Thracians the tragedy of zarra is that because his God

died nche himself became a God and this happened because he was no atheist he was of too positive a nature to tolerate the urban Neurosis of atheism it seems dangerous for such a man to assert that God is dead he instantly becomes the victim of inflation far from being a negation God is actually the strongest and most Effective position the psyche can reach in exactly the same sense in which Paul speaks of the people whose God is in their belly end quote so you know this is why I love yung's criticism of n perhaps most

of all you can poke all sorts of logical holes in it and accuse y of stating things with certainty that are basically just speculation and that would be true but n philosophized and made critiques and stated his own speculations with Certainty in sort of the same way so how can we really defend Nicha on that basis like you're not making the most rigorous argument I mean go look at a lot of what the way nche attacks and polymerizes against past philosophical figures by psychoanalyzing them and Yong is mostly taking the same mode of attack here

so it's kind of hard you know turn about as fair play is what I'm trying to say but what I love about yung's comments here is that he's complimenting n in the Highest terms and also basically calling him crazy that n is not like the simpleminded variety of atheists that came after him yet really he's not an atheist at all not by temperament and in practice as he is forced by a god inhabiting him to construct a new religion to author in a new religious language and this new God he feels to be something he

himself created and that's in some sense the source of the Inflation the idea that a God is inside of him he feels himself to be more of a prophet than a philosopher the man who must make the most serious demands that have ever been made of mankind it's the way he classifies his project in aomo God actually is in n's belly both in the sense that he carries the spirit of zarathustra and that he relocates uh the prerational intelligence governing our very being to the physiology quite literally to the belly right think about All the

comments n says about the importance of diet in terms of what your ideas are going to be but as Yung points out here n himself feels torn you know he's his letters as dianis or Zas who is dianis in his dismembered form uh it's surprising that Yung doesn't mention In this passage that n signed his letters as the crucified although I think Yung mentions it elsewhere but it indicates that even for nche the pole of that opposite moral orientation that other Archetype still exists that nche felt himself not holy dionysian but divided between the two

which is a similar critique that Gerard makes what the Christian represents to Yung is far more than nich's conception of the Christian tanicha Christianity is first and foremost a moral framework it's a system of reacting against the powerful driven by an inborn pity it's fueled by resentment and it deals with resentment by creating the bad Conscience within the individual its existence therefore becomes a delivery system for pity which results ultimately in a mankind which lives in a state of guilt for Yung Christianity has to be understood as a religion centered around the Life of Christ

Christ like dianis or zerra is an archetype we could say that Christ is the most powerful archetype in all of human history even and just as we might Consciously disavow the religious while our unconscious goes right along thinking in religious terms we can consciously criticize the Christian moral feeling as Nicha did but all the while still find our thoughts and actions uh motivated or affected by the imagery and the narrative the the prerational sensibility that Christianity represents Yung writes in Psychology and religion quote The Life of Christ is no Exception in that not a few

of the great figures of history have realized more or less clearly the archetype of the hero's life with its characteristic changes of Fortune but the ordinary Man Too unconsciously lives archetypal forms and if these are no longer valued it is only because of the prevailing psychological ignorance indeed even the fleeting phenomena of Dreams often reveal distinctly arpal patterns at bottom all psychic events are so deeply grounded in The archetype and are so much interwoven with it that in every case considerable critical effort is is needed to separate the unique from the typical with any certainty

ultimately every individual is continuously historical because strictly time-bound the relation of the type to time on the other hand is irrelevant since the Life of Christ is Arch tiple to a high degree it represents to just that degree the life of the archetype but since the archetype is the Unconscious precondition of every human life its life when revealed also reveals the hidden unconscious ground life of of every individual that is to say what happens in the Life of Christ happens always and everywhere in the Christian archetype all lives of this kind are prefigured and are

expressed over and over again or once and for all and in it too the question that concerns us here of God's death as anticipated in perfect form Christ himself is the typical dying And self-transforming God the psychological situation from which we started is tantamount to why seek you the the living among the dead he is not here Luke 24:5 but where shall we find the Risen Christ end quote so another striking disagreement between n and Yung Yung calls Jesus the perfected archetype of the hero n completely disagrees with this and uh he mentions in uh

his book The Antichrist that much of his comments against Jesus as the heroic figure are a pmic against Ran's view of Jesus who was also uh put forward the notion that Jesus perfects the heroic type nche thinks there's no one further from a hero than Jesus of Nazareth and we could say that this position comes out of n's perception that there are two different competing types of aristocracy in human society two centers of power that emerged since uh ancient days Warrior Aristocracies and the Priestly casts the aristocracies attain the ability to create values by fighting

for worldly power the Priestly casts create values via the aesthetic ideal which essentially involves not fighting not struggling to attain worldly power assing worldly power n sees an essential difference here and sees Jesus as sort of like an ultimate aesthetic can't even be classed among the heroes uh such as gilg or Hercules um those are symbols of vital fighting struggling life Jesus is defined by not struggling against the powers that be he gives no worldly resistance at all he teaches his F followers to turn the other cheek resist not evil n says those three words

resist not evil are the key to the entire gospel Yung sees things differently uh precisely in so far as the archetype itself of the self-sacrificing individual speaking truth to power is a Form of struggle uh the way of life of Jesus the image of life that Jesus uh gives us it's a form that recognizes that it is not by worldly competition by Strife or violence in the manner that Cain killed Abel that power itself can be opposed the most famous example of what we might call Christian heroism uh overcoming the old morality the antia morale

is the story of the last gladiatorial games two Gladiators Are about to do battle in the arena a Christian walks down into the arena tells them to Stop In The Name of Christ they killed him but the audience walks out in protest that's the end of this spectacle of public Collective violence through martyrdom through a loving sincere non-violent will one can put themselves into opposition with power itself and be a more effective threat to it than all of the violent revolutionaries that have ever existed Throughout history because violent revolution only ever creates more violence a

harsher Crackdown right whenever it succeeds it almost always becomes the Tyranny it opposed and uh you know it whenever it fails it only ever brings about a harsher response from the powers that P so it seems that the only way to actually oppose the corruption of power is not to resist it in physical terms but to resist it spiritually to condemn it morally and so For Yung The Life of Christ is a heroic life this is a man who lives by his principles and suffers supremely for it but he does so as a personal sacrifice

for the greater good of mankind what is that if not heroic the heroic archetype and the language of all religions and cultures is related to the symbol of the self the hero is the protagonist so to speak Yung writes in the chapter of ion Christ a symbol of the self quote Christ is our Nearest analogy of the self and its meaning end quote this crosscultural idea of a heroic self is always found in relation to the Savior archetype or the Redeemer as Yun calls it it's a Timeless experience that in a period of Chaos in

which God seems to have vanished it's at that moment then we begin to search for the Savior and in terms of personal psychological development this is exemplified in the practice of giving Oneself over to a higher power as an effective means of personal transformation Christ as the hero who is born lives and dies as God on Earth it's a god image and ideal that man can and will hold on to whenever God seems to be absent that it's the message that the savior will always return and since his life is so artile and thus Eternal

and Universal we can find endless inspiration and comfort in the example of the Life of Christ further in the essay psychology and religion Yun continues quote the death or loss must always repeat itself Christ always dies and always he is born for the psychic life of the archetype is timeless in comparison with our individual time bound us according to what laws now one and now another aspect of the archetype enters into active manifestations I do not know I only know and here I am expressing what countless other people know that the present is a Time

of God's death and disappearance the myth says that he was not to be found where his body was laid body means the outward visible form the UR while but ephemeral setting for the highest value the myth further says that the value rose again in a miraculous manner transformed it appears as a miracle for when a value disappears it always seems to be lost irretrievably so it is quite unexpected That it should come back the three days descent into hell during death describes the sinking of the vanished value into the unconscious where by Conquering the power

of Darkness it establishes a new order and then Rises up to heaven again that is attains Supreme Clarity of Consciousness the fact that only a few people see the Risen one means that no small difficulties stand in the way of finding and recognizing the transformed value end quote from this it may be Difficult to say exactly what Yung really believes about Jesus Christ was he a literal God on Earth who physically resurrected or is it just that the psychological truth of the story is so powerful and so eternally real to us that for all intents

and purposes uh such questions of the material reality of the story cannot be taken seriously and you could say that this kind of confusion what do you really believe about this story Applies to you know some prominent yans and the uh and the light of the public eye today uh you know it's real for us psychologically and so such questions of the material reality of the Resurrection or merely academic that might be the the union response and uh you know I understand it uh I think for me personally it's a bit unsatisfying but all the

same there are moments in this passage where it seems as though Christ Is being used as a metaphor for personal development and I'm sure that Dr Yung would insist that sure it is a metaphor it's not just a metaphor right that we really need to get over that kind of reductive thinking and and I'd agree with him to some extent there too but I suppose that I've never been satisfied by such reasoning um to put my issues with it into words that might be commensurate with yung's own thought if the Sciences Have despir the world

to the point that people no longer consciously accept Mythic explanations then shouldn't we have to reconcile ourselves to this reality rather than attempting to reconcile our con ious sober understanding of reality the one that's banished all those projections right that Yung says is just chaos now that we're living in a more conscious sober understanding uh should we reconcile That reality to the world of dreams and schizophrenic Visions or should we reconcile the world of dreams and schizophrenic Visions to the more sober view of life um the fact that we habitually think in certain terms does

not preclude the possibility that these are still incorrect terms and I I would say that's one of the main great critiques of n right that we have these thought habits that are ultimately erroneous and even if we can't escape Certain pitfalls of thought does that mean we should make a decision to become irrational for to forget what we've learned or do we say um perhaps I will begin to measure the strength of My Soul by how much truth I can tolerate that's all an open question uh you know perhaps Dr Yun could point out the

ways in which someone like myself has gone along with the Fantastical views of a man like n who was undoubtedly driven by a kind of Prophetic inspiration and that therefore uh you know even my own way of life as proof we all must choose our religion and to follow in the footsteps of nche is no less another choice of religious affiliation and as a consequence of n's inflation with that zorth strian archetype by becoming zarra's prophet and n's attempt to force certain anti-christian sentiments or strange moral ideas into existence that Yung thinks even he couldn't

fully believe Yung alleges in an Infamous section of memories dreams and Reflections that n fell into unreality quote N had lost the ground under his feet because he possessed nothing more than the inner world of his thoughts which incidentally possessed him more than he it he was uprooted and hovered above the Earth and therefore he succumbed to exaggeration and irreality for me such irreality was the Quintessence of horror for I aimed after all at this world and this life end quote you know it it's the brilliant thing about yung's critiques because the precise thing Anin

would say is that they aim at this world in this life the affirmation of this world in this life is the very thing that n said as his goal but a union would counter is that what his philosophy actually resulted in what was the actual operative process going on in n's thought was it actually Being grounded in the material reality around him Yung would say no for one n did not live up to that very ideal that he set for himself why not well by the very fact that he set himself against the entire modern

world n is Keen to understand our existence as an indelibly human existence and yet he thinks that the human psyche as it is is fundamentally sick and diluted he smashes the tablets of old he engages in that iconic clasm for which Yung criticizes him he tries to destroy all that which we formerly regarded as real um and but he does so while being driven by forces that he admits he doesn't fully understand and he knows that he's showing signs of incipient Madness so I think there is at least something to yung's critique here of n

there's a passage in volume s of yung's collected works that clarifies this this is on page uh 37 quote we must look very critically at The life of one who taught such a yay saying in order to examine the views of this teaching on the teacher's own life when we scrutinize his life with this a in view we are bound to admit that n lived Beyond Instinct and the lofty Heights of heroic Sublimity Heights that he could maintain only with the help of the most meticulous diet a carefully selected climate and many aids to sleep

until the tension shattered his brain he talked of yay saying and lived the Nay His loathing for man for the human animal that lived by Instinct was too great despite everything he could not swallow the toad he so often dreamed of and which he feared had to be swallowed the Roaring of the zarathustrian lion drove back into the cavern of the unconscious all the higher men who were clamoring to live hence his life does not convince us of his teaching for the higher man wants to be able to sleep without chloral to live in nberg

and Bosel despite fogs and shadows he desires wife and Offspring standing in esteem among the herd and innumerable commonplace realities and not least those of the Philistine Nicha failed to live this Instinct the animal urg to life for all his greatness and importance niches was a pathological personality end quote so as we all know in n's biography he as Yung says he he fails to ever find a why for start a family which does seem To be something he was interested in in spite of the ways that he disparaged uh married philosophers and uh at

least one passage I can think of which you know could come off like sour grapes that old Fable that old Fable of asops um and you know what happened in niia he began to steadily detach from reality itself his mind began to become consumed by these Waring Forces dianis versus the crucified he eventually has his collapse and becomes an invalid Muttering insane phrases and living in a hazy world of hallucinations so a niichan can accuse a yian of not wanting to live in reality and a yian can say well n didn't live in reality he

quite literally went insane so was the nian philosophy really a good approximation of reality or was his iconoclasm something ill-advised something which actually did not achieve its aim of destroying the old religious power it in fact destroyed n And in writing his philosophy n opened the floodgates for all sorts of older dangerous spiritual forces to take hold um and the nian might counter that by saying well is that a material claim or a metaphor to which the yion might say both and on and on and on still we should keep in mind that n was

an important uh influence on Yung and n as a case study was invaluable to Yung y I mean the very fact that N is a case that Yung returns to again and again Throughout his work proves this the case of n is perhaps one of the greatest psychological events that has ever happened from a yian perspective how could you be anything but grateful that you have a work like theuk zarathustra which is a living record of Arc tiple inflation on a scale that has perhaps never been seen before since Yung was influenced by the gnostics

and by the the Alchemists and while a discussion of Yung's views on Alchemy is something I'm certainly going to cover in the future it would take us way too far a field here but I just wanted to mention yung's interest in esotericism gnosticism hermeticism alchemy theosophy magic astrology divination the fact that Yung was interested in these things is often added to the list of reasons why Yung is a c or something like that but in truth his method here is quite Consistent with his method generally and it's seen in the way he looks at n

he looks at n as frankly insane but what Yung does is he looks to these domains of human thought with the aim of gathering truth about the human mind which is undoubtedly where all these ideas emerge it's where they exist right whatever you want to say about an idea you know it comes from the mind so it tells you something about the mind so y doesn't start from the the position That astrology reveals truths about material physical reality he starts from the position that astrology is the projection of the contents of our unconscious onto the

Stars it comes from the intuition that the Turning of celestial bodies is somehow involved with the destiny of mankind in some strange distant way that's perhaps larger than we can even perceive um and so there's like an Intuition that the cycles of life here on Earth are governed by the the stars and that idea when we state it in that very general sense is true by the way but that's not why you studies it is not to you know to read horoscopes the work of the Alchemists is much the same the Alchemists believed As Above

So Below the laws that govern Heaven are the laws that govern matter whatever apprehends in the domain of spirit ought to apply in the domain of Science and so the magnum opus the name for the great work of the Alchemists is not simply a charlatan promise of turning lead into gold it's something much bigger than that it's the notion that we could transform one type of substance into another type that the elements that we perceive in the world are all related to one another as matter as something physical and just as the spiritual world you

know we speak of the the language of change and Transformation as the main spiritual narrative perhaps we can learn the course responding laws that apprehend here on Earth so that we could use scientific knowledge to affect change or transformation among material forms that you know different types of matter different forms of matter as we perceive them aren't actually like fundamentally different that they all have a Unity to them as matter and that you know and again that's something that is actually True right um maybe you could say they didn't know that empirically experimentally but this

is the Insight of going all the way back to democratus matter is United to other forms of matter as matter and that they all behave by the laws of matter if they're all made of atoms and these configurations of Elementary particles then yes we find out in the modern day when we have a particle accelerator that we can actually turn lead into gold Right the atoms that make up lead and the atoms that make up gold are the same atoms right um no they're not actually literally the same atoms you know what I'm saying they're

all made up of the same subatomic particles um and you know Alchemy was the basis of chemistry and that's to oversimplify things you know in truth Alchemy was practiced concurrently with chemistry for a very long time so sort of like an esoteric form of chemistry Where a lot of the results are kept secret or preserved in the form of code because they wanted to keep the unwise from learning about these chemical changes and secrets but you know the Alchemists did in fact make discoveries that were relevant to early chemistry they discovered phosphorus um they learned

uh develop techniques that we use to this day in distilling creating alcohol the word alcohol comes from Alchemy but that's not yung's interest Uh where he finds his interest in the Alchemists is in so far as they write of the esoteric work of self- transformation where they use the metaphor of the chemical Transformations they're able to affect um they find a correspondence there to the world of the spirit As Above So Below so moving from lead to 10 to iron to Copper to Mercury to silver to gold that's a kind of metaphor for the soul

and its own path of Transformation and so the material that the Alchemists leave behind the the textual record that we have today of alchemy has a psychologic relevant Dimension because often times they're using the chemical processes they've discovered and mixing it together with religious imagery and symbolism in order to try to convey a metaphor of Spiritual Development and Yung is perhaps the first person to perceive this Alchemy is a psychologically relevant field of Study furthermore gnosticism hermeticism all these esoteric religious movements these are also psychologically valuable fields of study what what Yung finds so valuable

in these traditions we might say is that it's an artistic expression of religious thought in other words it's written by people who are letting their creative metaphor making side of the Mind Run free so to speak and they're giving voice to the most significant numinous Concepts in their minds which We might say within traditional dogmatic religion is like circumscribed within a set of traditional symbols you're not really allowed to be creative you're not supposed to be creative with the symbols and imagery within the tradition of the religion Yung writes quite a bit about mandelas as

a result of this those Eastern symbols of spiritual wholeness a Mandela has a circular shape it Bears resemblance to the kind of paradisaical w Garden that indicates a fully Actualized self yung's patients would draw mandelas as part of their process of psychological convalescence sort of spontaneously expressing they were moving toward the state of wholeness and in the mandelas drawn by his patience Yung basically saw it as though their artistic faculties were being used to sort of channel that language of spirituality and it's the same with an alchemical text or a gnostic text um and then

furthermore Yung finds Examples in literature in which a work that might normally be considered secular has a deep religious Dimension and a work we've considered throughout the episode is Zorra but another main source of influence is gotus fa particularly fa 2 and one of the things that Yung sees in these works of apparently secular fiction is that often they use alchemical imagery or symbolism which again isn't because Yung thinks there's like a secret influence From The Alchemist there um although there there certainly might be in some cases but uh that the thing underlying that use

of imagery is we might say prior to Alchemy and prior to the text the reason why it resonates with us is because it's something that there is the grain of psychological truth Within These Gnostic Traditions I'm going to quote now from Paul Bishop's the dionysian self Carl Jung's reception of Friedrich nche Quote yung's study of Gnostic literature is also important because together with his own personal experiences it led him to an entirely new understanding of Gus fa and N zarathustra according to his autobiography Yung concluded that he could resituate both these Works within the Matrix

of the myopic imagination which in his view had disappeared in the Modern Age of rationality both faou and zarathustra Could be subsumed in the golden or homeric chain the alchemical term for the series of great wise men starting with Hermes trismus which links heaven and Earth end quote and then he quotes from Yung here quote the second part of fa 2 is more than a literary exercise it is a link in the Arya katena which has existed from the beginnings of philosophical Alchemy and gnosticism down to nisha's zarathustra unpopular ambiguous and dangerous it is a

voyage Of Discovery to the other pole of the world end quote and so that's the value of n as a case study he presents us with a journey through his own psyche to a pole of reality that is far flung from our normal everyday conscious experience both GTA and N accomplished this because their Works consciously or unconsciously Drew from The Well of religious and alchemical symbolism both are engaged with the Aries era religion of Greek Antiquity and with the Pisces era religion of European christiandom and both go and N are in their way Heralds of

a new kind of modern man a man who has to live in this despir reality who thinks in terms of mechanistic explanations and positivistic empiricism and yet beneath the surface there's that same archetypal drama they those Arc types still reach up and take hold of the human heart they are still the driving subcomplexes that Determine Our Fate In Dreams as in our most desperate moments we still think in those same terms like faou when we reach the end of all of our studies of the physical world all of the knowledge and the Art and Science

of mankind we sigh aloud and say quote and here I am for all my lore The Wretched fool I was before end quote and in our heart we wonder as F does what is that secret Force what is it that hides behind the World and so Yung reads faou like a gnostic text and he reads zarathustra like a gnostic text he asks what the psychological relevance is what is their Timeless truth that stands prior to the author's conscious reasons which are really just post Hawk the conflict that is the main undercurrent of both of these

works and the malady that split nche in half is described by Yung in the essay the Undiscovered self quote nothing is more characteristic and Symptomatic than the gulf that is opened out between faith and knowledge the rupture between faith and knowledge is a symptom of the split Consciousness which is so characteristic of the mental disorder of our day it is as if two different persons were making statements about the same thing each from his own point of view or as if one person and two different frames of Mind were sketching a picture of his experience

end Quote the conflict as it were is between our conscious and unconscious consciously we're Guided by knowledge unconsciously by faith we ignore the unconscious side because it contains the shadow among other things all of that we have tried to suppress about ourselves the unconscious remains a fearful place a place from which the individual always tries to look away or flee and that only means that the unconscious contents will Remain uh ever more dangerous they're already ready to take hold and subsume the individual in moments of Crisis or great social upheaval nowadays in the modern age

that we've lost our religious lexicon for talking about them that's why they take on a greater danger and those political isms communism fascism for example those are the work of archetypal thoughts arpal feelings Arc typle actions taking hold of a mass of individuals that have Become disintegrated Yung stresses that there is a real Peril here therefore in continuing to ignore the unconscious or assuming that we could iconoclastic smash the contents of it we will always find our destiny is made there and not authored by the ego and on that respect Yung and N are in

agreement but Yung would argue that n was one-sided he was brilliant he was deeply in touch with himself and he Wrote some of the most beautiful passages in the history of literature but nevertheless he was the victim of arcle inflation a one-sided man who followed the will to truth under the harshest coldest territory that its extremities could offer and found that in that vast cold Darkness an archetype was waiting for him the archetype of the wise old man that returned only more powerfully because n had tried to make war upon that very thing the anchoring

Meaning behind our society Yung writes quote the case of n shows on the one hand the consequences of neurotic one-sidedness and on the other hand the dangers that lurk in his leap Beyond Christianity n undoubtedly felt the Christian denial of animal nature very deeply indeed and therefore he sought a higher human holess Beyond Good and Evil but he who seriously criticizes the basic udes of Christianity also forfeits The protection which these bestow upon him he delivers himself up unresistingly to the animal psyche that is the moment of dionysian frenzy the overwhelming manifestation of the blonde

Beast which seizes the unsuspecting soul with nameless shudderings the seizure transforms him into a hero or into a god-like being a superhuman entity he rightly feels himself 6,000 feet Beyond Good and Evil end Quote yung's way of approaching other thinkers from the psychoanalytic angle is as powerful and interpretive framework as anything n himself gives us Yung finds that there's much truth in what is hidden and visible unsaid or even unable to be said and the metaphor that Yung uses for this made it so I couldn't resist quoting him and I think the delians will enjoy

this quote that we're going to end on This says from memories dreams and Reflections quote life has always seemed to me like a plant that lives on its ryome its true life is invisible hidden in the ryome what we see is Blossom which passes The ryome Remains end quote thank you for joining me and examining n through the yungi and lens I feel that now that we've introduced Yung into our Rogues gallery of think ERS I can now include more of you as we continue on and I intend to do that with Many of the

figures we've discussed so far I usually try to introduce you know a new philosopher with the most wholesome possible introduction you know that is to say an introduction that conveys the whole person while still offering some concrete ideas from specific works and in a way which is as steel manned as I'm capable of doing and secondly because of the topic of the podcast I feel obligated to explain their relation to n As sort of the you know task number one and bringing up a new figure and so once we get both of those steps out

of the way uh you know I feel that I have more freedom in future episodes to return to that figure without having to constantly tie it back to nche and since we've now gotten a lot of n's main influences introduced I've talked about a handful of interpreters the podcast I think as we go forward it's going to continue to shift its focus so to speak more and More episodes will be about people who aren't n but uh personally I'm looking forward to this because it's you know it's not as if I'm not going to talk

about n anymore but there's just so much other great philosophy work out there to talk about and uh I like the variety I hope all of you do as well i' would expect next season we're going to probably have more episodes than not which are not Nicha Centric so to speak but again this is still the Nicha Podcast which means that in our next main episode we're going to get back into n's work and we're going to continue with that theme of psychological investigation we're going to consider one of the most important psychological passages in

nche from Twilight of Idols the four Great errors I've referenced it before I think it's time to give it a proper episode all to itself before we get there though I have another Conversation coming next week uh this one I'm very excited about as well so hopefully all of you uh will join me then for a conversation it's going to be sort of a counterpart to the one I did with Devon gory um it's you know we're getting political again but I I think I think it was a great conversation I think you're going to

enjoy it so tune in next week uh By the time this episode's coming out I'm going to be on tour I'm going to be on the Road so you know look me up see if I'm going to be in your city um if if you're not going to be a a weirdo then please come out and come see me you know I say that but I haven't had any weird I've had lots of fans of the podcast come out to shows they've all been great um you know you just get weirded out saying things like

that online all right everybody that's going to be it for this week um hope you'll join me next time cheers everybody Signing off if you enjoyed the N podcast or found it helpful you can visit us and support the show at patreon.com / untimely Reflections the link is in the description or just share the show with any of your friends that you think might enjoy it or on social media thank you for your [Music] support