you have have you looked into the the you know the konic manuscripts and this the claim of perfect preservation and if so like what are what are your thoughts on really the effect of that message for Muslims the effect the effect and how powerful it is for them to believe that there's only one Quran while everything else is been corrupted while we have the holy book that God protected and then how you know how flimsy is that actually is that claim yeah so I did a a talk at a university a number of years ago
and that recording is on my on my YouTube channel of uh what I talk about the controlled transmission of the Quran versus the uncontrol transmission of the New Testament text I I break down a little bit of that you know we have these manuscripts in fact uh one of the papers that I wrote in graduate college was just after the discovery of the Birmingham Quran and so I contacted some of the people Birmingham University who are going into looking at that and the textual variant that existed there uh particularly in comparison to some other early
chronic manuscripts like the Top Copy manuscript and the Saum sest that have textual variance uh among their kind of early transmissional texts but to be totally honest with you um Avery I don't know if what your experience is but getting into the weeds of that I often find less effective as just going into the Quran and talking about how the Quran addresses the Torah and inil the gospel and the Torah and how the author of the Quran does not seem to have any semblance or kind of idea that there is a a kind of level
of corruption that's going on in the text in fact in Surah 5 verse 46 and 47 the Quran lays out a chain of custody that God sent down the gospel to Jesus confirming the Torah which continued in the guidance and light that it possessed and it says that the people of the Gospel in other words Avery you and I Christians must judge by what God has revealed to us in the gospel and if we don't do that guess what we're the definely disobedient yeah talk to Muslims yeah and so I talk when I talk to
Muslims I I simply say hey I don't want to be the definantly disobedient before God the problem is though if I look at the Quran and I obey what it's telling me to do there and I judge the Quran by the gospel I find the Quran false absolutely so if the Quran is true it's false because it is not in conjunction in continuity or in agreement with anything anything in the gospel and so I think the Quran really has a problem because I don't think the author of the Quran had ever read any of the
biblical Old Testament or new testament but assumes they know what it's talking about and then on that assumption says some very naive and foolish things yeah uh one I would say that that's my my favorite argument is the Islamic dilemma it's what I say when people always ask me what what should I learn when it comes to is Islam and what's the first step I always tell them learn what the Quran says about the Bible because you'll be astonished and there's no escape from it the the the Quran defends the Bible so that you don't
have to against the Muslim the Quran has already done the work for you you don't have to do anything just remember these few verses and you'll be and you'll be just fine one of the verses that that I've been using a lot lately um and then the topic that I run with this is the Quran says that the Bible is the authority over the Quran and they're like what no absolutely not the the the Quran is the criteria and it's the new book it's the last Revelation I well no according to the Quran it tells
Muhammad in 1094 if you're in doubt about that which we revealed to you then go and as the people who've been reading the scripture before you truly the L you know the truth has come to you from your lord so what is this saying this is saying hey Muhammad if you're doubting this Revelation if you're doubting the Quran go check the previous scriptures it'll clear up your doubts because you'll see that it lines up with that but and if it doesn't line up with it then Muhammad would know that his Revelation is actually not really
from God and it's actually a lie so what's the authority here the authority is the Bible even in the Quran so then what do we do here um what what do you do as Muslims because you have to admit this oh well what what you what you have it's it's it's corrupted it's it's corrupted okay so is Allah telling Muhammad to go rely on corrupted scripture to clear up his doubts about the Quran that makes no sense help me understand that you know so and we have we have copies from the Arabian peninsula of what
the gospel and Torah look like like in languages like syc and in um you know the Aramaic pasida that would have been there along with you know the the Greek uh New Testament and Greek translation of the Old Testament we know exactly what the Torah and the gospel looked like in Muhammad's day and Christians and Jews cannot judge by what has been revealed to them if they no longer have it if it's if it's gone if it's missing if if the Torah and the gospel are God's words and no one can change God's words which
the Quran also says an accusation of corruption towards the Torah and the gospel is one that either makes God into a liar or unable to do what he says he can do which is preserve his words and so we know exactly what the Torah and the gospel look like there's no issue with that I just simply think the author of the Quran did not know what the gospel and the Torah know was in there he didn't know okay okay so yeah what is the what is the hypothesis that you guys roll with with respect to
this this question so they they didn't have access to the actual gospel to the actual uh New Testament scriptures and stuff didn't have access to it but then they referred to it throughout the Quran um I so they were just hoping that Their audience wasn't informed or something well so there's actually a substantial Christian and Jewish population in areas like the uh Northern Arabian Peninsula and what's modern day Syria Jordan Israel like these were all Christian countries um Armenia i' had been a the first official Christian country uh and so there's a lot of Christians
and Jews I mean so the traditional Islamic sources say Muhammad was a literate so he wasn't supposed to have been able to read anyways and the evidence for Arabic translations of the Bible in the you know sth Century early 8th Century it's not as strong as it could be so that there's actually a lot of evidence that even if Muhammad could have read assuming that Muhammad is the author of the single single author of the Quran he probably wouldn't have had access to anything that he could have actually read but I think what's going on
is you have these stories which we find evidence of in the Quran of Jewish and Christian folktales AP poer fold stories that are floating around the Arabian peninsula in the sth century my friend Andy Bannister his doctoral dissertation was on the subject uh his book the oral formulaic construction of the Quran that's a title that you have to say five times fast um is a is a good book because what it does is it tracks these oral sources that we can tie to Folk Tales of Jews and Christians in the Arabian Peninsula during this time
frame and so if you're hearing Christians and Jews tell these stories of you know the the um friends who are hiding in the cave or um of uh Jesus turning uh clay birds into real birds or you know there are multiple stories that are folktales apocryphal stories that end up in the Quran I just don't think that the author of the Quran had the ability to differentiate between what were actually reliable stories found in the gospels of who the historical Jesus was and stories that were floating around that were folktales during his time of who
Jesus and Mary and John the Baptist were the author was just straight up bluffing when he said like just go read it and it's going to confirm all this I I wouldn't I wouldn't necessarily say he was blood I I would I I thought from my what I see I think he believed that I think he the author because he didn't know what was like what Wes said he doesn't know what is real in the in the previous scriptures or what isn't he's he's familiar with stories that he's hearing so with this stuff and he
puts an Islamic Twist on it and so I I genuinely believe that he probably believed that yes it would what I'm what I'm saying would confirm and line up to some degree of what what you guys have you know it just so happens that it doesn't yeah yeah it just so happens that it does he didn't he doesn't know he's ignorant of what what's in there but to to Wes's point you literally have Hadith camp that talk about um Muhammad being like hearing the stories like there's there's uh one Hadith that says that there were
Jews who were reciting the Torah and then explaining it in Arabic to the Muslims and so they're they're hearing them give their narrations of what they think the Torah is and having and explaining it and then also there's a Hadith that talks about Muhammad's closeness with this man named wara uh who is supposed to be some type of Christian around that time I think a lot of people allude to him being a gnostic Christian but Muhammad is really close to him and learns a lot from him so these traditions and stories Muhammad is there's evidence
in the Sunni Hadith that would show that Muhammad would have a familiarity with these Traditions with these folktales as Wes said it's in their Hadith so yeah yeah there is a great book um if people are interested in this topic by a guy named Gordon nickel and is called uh the gentle answer to the Muslim accusation of biblical falsification it's it's less technical than actually the title of the book um Gordon nichel is legitimate scholar he's a fellow Canadian so I got to give him credit for that uh he taught at the University of Calgary
I believe for a number of years but then he left Academia to go be a missionary in India for like I think it was two decades like a long time but solid guy very interesting book lots of citations and references to things that were going on at the time to the Hadith to the Quran and to the taper so that's a good one if people are interested in kind of delving into it ay you got any other questions otherwise I was going to kind of shift and talk about the Trinity a little bit Yeah well
so well not necessarily a question but like you sparked a topic that I would love to do Wes and which is what exactly was around when it comes to the Bible in the seventh century that the Jews and Christians had access to like I think that you know giving people a perspective of what actually was there would kind of you know tone you know I don't know G give a good frame of what what what we're working with here I I would love to to tackle that someday I I would love to well the kex
sent on ananus was uh was available right it was written in the listen we got we got to hurry up because I have I have to go to my chiropractor and get my CTIC kiss uh realigned after this oh okay tough
