you're about to witness a rare instance where Jordan Peterson and Ben shapir are in the same room and Peterson takes this opportunity to really press B on Christianity which leads to a really interesting discussion about Jesus I'm going to let this one play out then I'm going to give my thoughts in the back end let's get into it this is where I think we could have an interesting conversation about the relationship between Judaism and Christianity so there's an idea in Christianity which is I think the central idea which is that you need to face the
potential for malevolence that exists within you and in the world so that's Christ's confrontation with the devil in the desert with Satan in the desert you have to come to terms with that malevolence that's part of existence and you have to voluntarily accept the burden of suffering and so that's the acceptance of the Cross okay so you take on that you say the suffering so there's an idea that Christ is a Messianic figure because he took the suffering of the world onto himself and what that means to me is that he was someone speaking um
conceptually who decided that the suffering of the world was his responsibility and that that's what you're supposed to do you're supposed to decide that that's your responsibility you take that on a as a burden you do the same with the malevolence so when you read history you read history as a perpetrator right maybe you also read it as a victim but you certainly read it as a perpetrator and then that's on you okay so then the question is what happens when you do that and I would say the answer is two things is that first
of all it starts to force you to develop like to learn what you need to learn in the world and to absorb the information that would enable you to start to face the suffering and to rectify it so that forces you to become a more competent person and that's the socialization part that you thought of as so important but then there's a secondary thing that happens too which is that taking on that additional stress and demand voluntarily transforms you biologically because within your genetic structure let's say there's all sorts of potential but that won't be
unlocked unless you place Place yourself in a position where the demands necessitated and so by following that pathway truth let's say the acceptance of suffering and the confrontation with malevolence so that's the heaviest load that you could take on then you actually produce a psychophysiological SLS spiritual transformation in yourself that matures you into like the representation of the father on Earth that's why that that's how that I'm glad I'm glad he got us here because the question that I said to you I there was only one thing I said to you guys before we started
I wanted to get to something about most of the lectures that you're when we're doing these things you're usually talking about the Old Testament now obviously you're an Old Testament guy but my my question was do you think that Ben or or just people that believe in the Old Testament exclusively are missing something so you just laid out a case of something that potentially is missing there do you think that is a fair argument well what I'm going to argue is that what you just said is fundamentally unchristian in the sense that you're saying that
everyone is supposed to imitate Jesus and the basic conceit of from what I understand speaking with Christian theologians is that we are fundamentally incapable of taking on our own sin and so we have to have somebody who comes in the form of Christ on Earth in order to accept that suffering for us and that that is the purpose of God actually embodying himself in Christ is to provide human beings the capacity to withdraw from original sin that we don't actually have the capacity Beyond a certain point to overcome and that's why Jesus as a sing
figure is necessary I actually agree from a judaic point of view with everything that you say because for me it's about accepting responsibility for my own sins on myself and I don't have the ability to say that there is the the suffering servant the suffering Lamb of God who sacrificed himself to relieve me of my sins and therefore give me a fair shot at life yeah okay okay that's that's a really good objection I think and I think that there's a fair bit of confusion about that in the Christian Community for example so I would
say that that perspective is more explicitly Protestant and then then I would put the Catholics next to that but then I would put the Orthodox types fairly far away from that which is why so many Orthodox Christians I think have been interested in what I'm saying because their sense and this is where my knowledge of Christian theology starts to run out because of like I'm not an expert on you know in the in the doctrinal differences right um their sense is that it's the imitation that's of primary importance now it's it's a weird thing because
even in classical Christianity you have let's say Protestant Christianity you have this idea that well Christ died to save us all from our sins and so we're already redeemed but that doesn't alleviate the moral burden weirdly enough because you'd think it should so there's this Paradox and I think it's I I think part of the reason for that this is this is an extraordinarily complicated thing but in in in the brothers karamazov Christ comes back to earth right and um in civil during the Spanish Inquisition and so he's doing his miracles and raising people from
the dead and like being all Messianic and the first thing that happens is The Inquisitor arrests him throws him in prison and then comes to visit him and basically says look um the last thing we need after setting up this church for 2,000 years is you you're a lot of trouble you've put a moral burden on human beings that's too much for them to bear and so what we've done is watered it down and put some intermediaries in place so that the moral demand that your example required doesn't just Crush people into nothingness right so
every ideal is a judge right so then you have the ultimate ideal that's the ultimate judge and from the inquisitor's point of view that judge was too much it was too demanding and so I think there's an and so so anyway so The Inquisitor goes through all this argument and says we're going to have to you know get rid of you again because you're you're just too much to bear and so Christ listens and doesn't says any doesn't say anything and then just when The Inquisitor stands to leave Christ k kisses him on the lips
and The Inquisitor turns white in shock and then leaves but he leaves the door open and that's the brilliant that's the brilliant ending of of dov's Peis yeah and what makes him such a genius because he basically says something like well look the the Catholic Church did reduce the burden and it is corrupt in the way that Earthly organizations are likely to be corrupt and it does allow an out which is well you can put your sins on Christ let's say and that alleviates your moral burden but it still keeps the damn door open well
this and so this is why I think it's really fascinating having having spent a lot of time with Christian theologians in the past couple of years writing this book is that the the original conceit I think when when when you talk with people who are Christian and Jewish and you have sort of interfaith conversations uh the original one sentence conceit in the difference between them is that what you hear from Jews is Judaism is acts based and Christianity is faith-based J Christianity is about the acceptance of Christ when you accept Christ then you've accepted what
you need to accept and everything flows there from and Judaism says it's not just about accepting God it's all these mitzvot right there are all these Commandments that you have to do and these are what perfect you as a human being it's it's the performance of these Commandments excepting God's sovereignty because he's the one who gave the Commandments but you actually have to act in the world and if you don't act in the world then you haven't fulfilled your responsibility in the world this could also be an argument why you could have although I know
you wouldn't be thrilled to them per se you could have Jewish atheists in that they believe that it's just their actions here yes 100% so so this is why you know Jews have had very and I think most Christians believe this too the idea of having a moral atheist is not really a difficult idea it's the idea of having a system built on atheism that's completely immoral and will fall apart almost immediately and the idea of having a moral system built on atheism if you examine your atheism closely enough I think falls apart I think
that moral atheism is basically you separating your morality from your atheism and then ignoring your Atheism in pursuit of the morality which is you can live fine that way that's fine but I don't think that that's psychologically sustainable um in if you actually examine the core of your ideas but with with that said I think that Christianity after its original millenarian Viewpoint when when Christianity first came about the idea of Christ on Earth was that he had ushered in the Messianic era because this was it was it was a new era it was a new
day and then it turns out that people looked around they went well this looks a lot like the old day right not that much as changed and so what changed what changed was our spiritual status that was the new redefinition of the Messianic era is that the the what Christ had brought to Earth was a new spirit right he he brought a new spirit into the Earth and he he cleansed people of their and given them a fresh shot at life basically and that in doing so he changed the nature of of how things work
well Judaism basically said well we never thought that that nature changed in the first place right that's that's that's something different and so ironically enough I think one of the sources of Christian anti-Semitism over time is an attempt to distinguish what makes Christianity different from Judaism other than Christ because Christianity and Judaism in most of their main philosophies have an awful lot in common is interesting I just interviewed um a uh a fellow named John MacArthur who's a major Pastor major christian Theologian I interviewed him a couple of days ago for our Sunday special and
this came up I asked him so where do you think the differences are between Christianity and Judaism and he basically said Jesus right that's the difference and I think that that is the mostly honest answer because when I hear Christian theologians try to distinguish Judaism from Christianity what they say about Judaism I find to be not accurate as to what Judaism actually says and when I hear Jews try to distinguish Christianity from Judaism I think that well and I'm not saying they're the same thing because they're not obviously they're different belief systems but in terms
of the underlying value system the reason that we say judeo-christian value system is because in terms of the value system itself the commonalities are overwhelming they're overwhelming the differences are mostly doctrinal and historical and in terms of what you think go I I think that Christians read back in an acts based version of their own lives through a variety of mechanisms whether they say well predestination exists but in order to show that if I were really elect I would be acting this way right that is an acts based version It's just retroactive from the end
and so this is why if you say to a Christian so you really believe that you can lead a terribly dissolute awful terrible life but if you believe in Christ with the full fiber of your being you're going to heaven and they'll say and and many of them will say yes but then you say but what makes a good person and they'll say right not but if what they always had but if you believe in Christ you wouldn't do all those things so it seems like Ben here he's saying a lot of the right things
here in these interviews but he keeps squirming through the discussions and ignoring the central issue which he even addressed he said it's it's Jesus that's the distinction between Christianity and Judaism and he keeps squirming and ignoring the glaring evidence for Jesus which is the Old Testament Messianic prophecies that predict Jesus's coming so real quick we're going to watch a powerful moment where the guys at Tree of Life Ministry go to Israel and share the best prophecies about Jesus's coming to Jews check it out [Music] [Music] Dan [Music] um some of those prophecies that you just
heard read come from the Old Testament but are forbidden in the synagogues in Israel and from Jewish teachers because nobody in else in history fits These Old Testament prophecies better than Jesus and just to drive home this point I'm going to Rapid Fire real quick share with you 10 of the best prophecies that point to Jesus being the coming Messiah number one he would be bornn from a virgin he would be worshiped and given gifts at his birth his ministry would be preceded by a voice calling in the desert he would come riding on a
donkey his message of Salvation would also extend to the Gentiles he would be despised and rejected he would be portrayed for 30 pieces of silver his hands and feet would be pierced Lots would be cast for his clothes he would die and pour out his blood for our sins and he would Ascend to heaven and after hearing all these prophecies who else could the Messiah possibly be and it makes me wonder does Ben shapira think that Jesus doesn't qualify these prophecies or does he just not want Jesus to be the Messiah because Jesus's message was
offensive I mean he basically came down and told all the Pharisees and sadu sees that they're getting into legalism and not loving the Lord their god with their heart but instead saying it with his mouth and they're not and not meaning it and he said Jesus said that no man is good and that no amount of sin offerings or Good Deeds is enough to cover the burden of our sins that we've committed against God and that we will be judged accordingly and that the only way for us to be saved is through Jesus and trusting
in Him for bearing on our sins but we're not the ones in charge of this decision of whether or not Ben comes to Christ or not but the best thing that we can do for him is to keep praying for his salvation so I encourage you to continue doing that alongside with me thank you so much have a great day bye-bye
