Condolences, Leo XIV, Debating Wolfe, Webbon on Excommunications

Well, greetings and welcome to the Dividing Line. It is a uh a week out from uh the debate next uh Thursday evening with uh Stone Choir cult leader Corey Mer. I'm I'm not going to apologize for saying those things. I think that's going to be fully vindicated in the com comments and the conversation as it takes place. Um but um yeah, that'll be uh that'll be a week from today. Um just here at the Beginning of the program um have to extend our condolences to um two folks that I've had uh positive interaction with on

um social media. Um, one f I've really enjoyed, you know, some it's nice when when folks help lighten things up and they do it well uh with finding funny memes that you end up repeating or sending off to your family or doing whatever. Uh, there's a there's a guy savagely average um That has done that for a long time. I've enjoyed his feed and his lovely wife passed away just a few days ago. uh she had had open heart surgery. So um you know those things you know when my mom passed she had had a

heart attack and they had put her in a you know rehabilitation place and and um she died just a few days later uh from another massive heart attack after the first one. And so the heart's um an amazing thing but it um we and we can do amazing Things for it. I mean I'm I'm a heart patient. I had cardiac ablation in 2011. Um it didn't work but I had it. Um so um and then um Ken Five Solas uh Pastor Ken online again a good brother that we've had good conversations with just announced just

a few moments ago that his wife had had a a heart attack and she's passed away. And I mean just within the past hour and um so we uh we extend our condolences and normally what I say to people may May the God of all comfort be with you. That's that's such beautiful language that the Apostle Paul used the God of all comfort. And I I don't I don't know that we think a lot about that. I'm not going to do my grieving presentation today. Um it it's yeah I did write a book on the

subject and it's happen it's helped a lot of people and I've had at least four different people come up to me uh in the 20 some odd years or more since I Wrote it. Um well well more than that because uh now I think about it they were passing that book out by the carton load at ground zero in September 13th 2001. So that was 24 years ago. coming up on 24 years, I've had at least four people come up to me that said that um that book kept them from committing suicide. Now, obviously, it

wasn't the book, it was the Lord using that book. But, um doing presentations on grieving and Things like that, it's just always been one of the hardest things. Being a hospital chaplain was one of the hardest things I ever did. There's no there's no question about that. And um so I'm not going to go back through all that, but I I do just I I will just comment that this is an area where where the church struggles and it shouldn't. Um we we have such a wealth of resources in the scriptures on this Subject but

I think it's one area where where we are so deeply influenced by the culture and our culture does not handle death well at all. we um uh we basically say, "Hey, you know, we we'll give you two weeks off and uh come back to work after that and everything needs to be right back to where it was. You need to be done with your grieving and honestly, you don't even start grieving Till two weeks or more. Uh you're in the shock stage before then." And um there's just so much that you know that the scriptures

tell us that is better to spend a day in the house of mourning than in a house of feasting. But we don't do that. You know, we often won't take our kids to funerals because we don't we don't want to bother them or depress them or something. No, they I I think one of the one of the biggest U problems that has developed in American culture and society over the past 80 to 100 years, maybe a little more, has been up until that time, you lived in the same house, the same family. You saw your

great-grandparents die. You saw your grandparents die. Uh you saw death. And there was much more infant mortality. You lost brothers and sisters. There were accidents in the farm on the farm, you know, uh you saw death. And when you think back to the Reformation, why were people so concerned about indulgences and purgatory and justification and how you have peace with God? Because you saw death all the time. uh the plague was still running around and the memory of the the great plague itself was still fresh in many people's minds and and then it would keep

coming through the through the town and and it just we entertain ourselves into Numbness about mortality. We are so used to just popping a pill, taking a drug and then you you you distract your mind with movies and music and you know I I think the generations after mine just don't even know what it is to have silence for any period of time. always got something in their ears, always listening to something to keep that meditative silence away. Because when that happens, you Have to start thinking about who you are, how much longer you expect

to live. Everybody knows in the back of their mind every time they get into a vehicle and start rolling down the road. You may not understand potential energy. You may understand how that works, but you press that accelerator and you're converting chemical energy into mechanical energy, which infuses your body with potential energy. Um, and when You're whipping down the road at 65 miles hour and all of a sudden you come to a screeching halt, and I mean screeching halt, I mean you run into something. The reason you die is because your body explodes because you're

full of potential energy and you didn't dissipate it appropriately by using breaks. Um, and you know, you know, Tom Buck last week had to do that um funeral for someone, a young man 24, 25 years old, a police Officer in their in their church, motorcycle accident. And he didn't get up that morning expecting to enter into eternity. Uh none of his friends or family expected that either. But every single one of us when we get into a vehicle, we don't even think we we suppress the knowledge of the fact that you you are you are

not alone on that road. And I don't know about the rest of you, But it seems like the driving skills of the population are diminishing rapidly. Um, they they really really are. And I especially think about that given how I travel these days. But anyway, that the point is we just don't we we ignore death. We we put it away. We spend billions and billions of dollars to hide its effects upon our bodies. And so when death comes uh even in the church we are Not you know there's much wisdom to be found in the

house of mourning far more than in the house of feasting. I'm not saying there's something wrong with the house of feasting but when that's all we want when we won't even go to the house of mourning. Uh that tells you a lot. And the difference between Christians and non-Christians is real simple. It's not that we do not grieve. It's that we do not grieve Without hope. Anyone old enough to love is old enough to grieve the object, the loss of the object of their love. So, we do grieve, but we don't grieve as a world.

Uh we grieve in hope. And that makes all the difference in the world. It really, really does. So um to our brothers who are uh grieving today beginning that process we um uh pray for God's uh comfort upon you uh both and there are many others that we don't know you know We see sometimes we see things on Twitter and you don't know the people but you're like oh Lord you know undertake for your for your people. So all right. Um and then we have uh of course as you saw today um a new pope

has been selected very very quickly. Um very very quickly which as soon as I heard that there was white smoke I'm like wow that was quick. um that that almost seems like it was sort Of a done deal, you know, from the start. Um and I don't know a lot about this fellow, first American pope, which is quite interesting. Um most everything that I'm seeing is that he's pretty much in the line of Francis. He was put in that position by Francis. Um, we'll see. I mean, it's not just the pope, it's also the people

that the pope has around him. Will Tucho Fernandez Still be involved in leadership, stuff like that? Who knows? Uh, next number of months will give us some indication of which direction things are going. Was this a compromise move? was this uh you know some of the conservatives putting their foot down saying you you got to do this but they they were they were pretty much completely outvoted. I mean uh 85% of the cardinals Had been selected by Francis and so um we'll find out. It'll be um it'll be interesting to see. Um, Cardinal Robert Francis

Previs might be provost, I suppose. I I haven't been listening to the news. Sorry. Um, got other things be going on. I'm just reading stuff online. Um, though it did strike me as strange. Pope Leo the 14th. Okay. There have been some very Interesting Pope Leos there. There really really really have been a lot of interesting Pope Leos. Um but the the one that strikes me is Pope Leo I 10th. Um and you know he's got to know something about the history of these names. I would imagine he went in there knowing that he probably

was going to become pope or at least had a really good chance of it. So it's not like oh now I got to come up with a name. Oh, huh. I I imagine that was something that Was thought of a long time ago. And so Leo the 10th, if you're if you're not up on your Leos, uh if you if you're not real big on remembering all of your papal names, Pope Leo I 10th was the pope that wrote a certain rather famous uh papal encyclical called Exery Domin. Arise, O Lord, a wild boar has

broken out in your vineyard. That was The excommunication of Martin Luther. And just and prior to that, a few years prior to that, that was the same pope that Arasmus had dedicated the first printing of his noam instrumentum, his Greek Latin digglot, uh, which came out in 1516. And the reason he dedicated to the pope was because he didn't follow the standard procedures of sending it to the Vatican To get it approved before it was published. They knew that Cardinal Jimenez was already in that process. Uh his multi-olume beautiful work had already been printed and

was sitting in boxes in a storehouse waiting paper approval. and they wanted to beat that. They wanted to get his out first and so they they took a chance. They took a risk, dedicated it to Pope Leo the 10th and um published it and got away with it. But same Pope and I didn't take the time to look at it because I'm working on other stuff right now obviously, but I'm fairly certain. Um, could be wrong, but again, could look it up pretty quickly, but I'm thinking it was the same pope, though that would be

a long period of time. Uh, that scandalized Luther in 1510 when Luther went to Rome. And remember to go to Rome in those days if you're a monk meant you walked from Germany to Rome. That's a long trip, long walk. um he went to uh to Rome and he was uh scandalized by how Rome was, how corrupt Rome was, how the corrupt the priests were. and he saw the pope riding by in armor and he was uh you know that was that was part of the process that sort of helped start the process of Moving

uh Luther to a at least to a position where he can sort of look at the uh look at the church in a in a way that allowed him to sort of go hey Oh, it was Julius II was the one he saw. Okay. I didn't figure he that sound that that was a that would have been a really long pontificate uh for him to uh uh have been able to pull that off. But um uh Anyway, there was a lot of corruption there and um so that was what was dinging was uh that was

my watch dinging at me. I'm not sure how to turn that off. Anyway, so I I did find the name interesting because of the fact that Leo was the one that u excommunicated Martin Luther. Not sure what that if that has any meaning whatsoever, but that like I said some of the earlier Leos had been Very powerful, very powerful popes. So we will see what happens. Um, I made the mistake, well, I guess it's not a mistake, but I I attempted to get Steven Wolf to actually say something meaningful uh in social media, which evidently

is not something he's interested in doing. Um, in essence, uh, he had had posted a statement and, Um, let me Oh, I I'll have to come back. Did you see the Salt Lake stuff? Um, Salt Lake City Mayor Aaron Mendenhal, Democrat. you know, when we first started going up there, there was no way a female Democrat was going to be elected as mayor of Salt Lake City. That that wasn't going to happen. Um has proposed adopting three new flags as official city flags in order to Circumvent Utah state law banning political and nonofficial flags from

government buildings. The three flags are the pride flag, transgender flag, and the Juneenth flag. And it passed. And so they did it. And so those are now official flags for Salt Lake City. The the rumbling you hear is Brigham Young. Young spinning in his grave. There is absolutely no two ways about that. She would fully come to understand the doctrine of blood atonement and the Danites if she lived in Brigham Y Young's day. I can guarantee you that. Wow. Wow. Wow. Um what what can I say? Um, and and I'm I'm going to get to

the Steven Wolf thing. Um, 1312 passed. Uh again, Democrats, leftists don't care about uh constitutions and law and you know, they'll take stuff out, get it passed, and then quickly throw it all back in and hope nobody notices and and of Course the governor of Colorado is going to sign anything that's perverted. So, uh, as it was expressed by the Center for Baptist Leadership, a bill to criminalize Christianity, destroy parental rights, and create a state sponsored persecution regime in Colorado has passed its final vote. It will now go to Governor Polus for his signature. Um,

and truly, uh, once Again, we're going to we've I've got I've got people. Thank you for the contacts we've gotten. We're going to push on trying to find a representative. If I if you're to ask me what percentage success rate do you think we're going to have, what's the chance of getting somebody to actually debate this bill uh publicly? Um I I would Say 20%. I'd say we might have a 20% chance of finding somebody. I'm I'm trying to be positive there. It's probably less than that. And why? Because they know they've already they know

they've already won the um the public, not the public argument, but the uh they they have the media in their pocket. They have the universities. And so why should they expose themselves? They don't they don't need why should they expose themselves? A little double on tandra there. um uh they they don't they don't need to do debates. They don't need to engage in argumentation. Uh they're getting what they want not not through argumentation at all. They're getting what they want through attacking language by redefining um safety and and love. and they they redefine these words

which in a debate you get challenged on if the other Person knows what in the world a debate is supposed to be and you have cross-examination you get challenged. Um that's not going to happen in the media. That's not going to happen in the Senate hearing rooms uh where one side speaks, other side speaks, but there's never really any meaningful exchange. And when there is, it's almost always uh very much emotionally Oriented. So, I'm not sure if that's a possibility. Um, but we we're going to hope that it uh that it will it will take

place. So, getting back to Stephen Wolf, all I see whenever I say anything, the comments are just shut up and debate him. And I just go I I want to go shut up and tell me what I'm supposed to debate him on just what what are you talking about? We've talked about this before. Even AD Robits got Into it. I don't know if you saw this, but uh you know I mentioned some of the actual topics that would need to be addressed. Um I know Jeff Durban would be happy to debate him on theomy. I'd

be happy to debate him on presuppositional apologetics, which he says is inconsistent with reformed tradition, which I think just demonstrates how ignorant he is of apologetics. He's never done any debating. He doesn't engage in that kind of stuff. It's not His area, but he likes to talk about anyways. Um, and some online folks had contacted him and the only topic he came up with was something along the lines of um if would would having a almost everybody being Christian in a society be enough to to build a governmental system. Something along those lines. I could

I could come up with the exact wording. Um, I have it here someplace, but I Won't right now. And it was it was vague. It was not really de debatable in any formal sense and it demonstrated a complete misunderstanding of what I've said. He criticizes what he calls revivalism. Um the idea that if there is a major move the spirit of God that results in the conversion of the nations that that's going to have an impact on how those nations are going to seek God's blessing and things like that which we do not see at

this point in Time. uh that's not happening right now. And so he seems to think that all I'm saying is that we, you know, you don't have to have the same language. You don't have to have similar cultural institutions. It's just if everybody's a Christian, but if everybody's a Christian, then what are their standards going to be? What is going to drive their worldview? Um what is going to be the concern of the nation? It's not going to Be like it is right now in the United States where it's how much money do I get?

How much how much money am I going to be able to get out of the government? I mean, that's that's just be honest. That's where a large portion of the population is today. And no nation can survive that very long. Um, everything would change, but it would be those changes that would be that would be taking you to theonomy. that would be taking you. A and of of course all this Goes back to how do you know what you know epistemology presuppositionalism which again it's very plain to me he doesn't understand. So I he he

posted something on Twitter. It said is as normal. It was short. The guys who attacked nasticism in scare quotes for decades are now telling us that by grace we're all the same. That's it. One sentence. So he doesn't identify who the guys are. So you can get to fill that in Whatever you want. Who are the guys who attacked nasticism for decades? Who is that? I mean, there are people who use the termnosticism all the time that have never read any original Gnostic documents. They couldn't they couldn't meaningfully describe for you the difference between um

the original earliest form ofnosticism as it Came out of the east and Valentiniannosticism which purposefully attempts to be as much like Christianity as possible. They couldn't tell you why. They couldn't tell you the difference between Yahweh and yaba oath. They couldn't they don't know anything about the eons and and uh what Sophia did that resulted in the birth of the demi urge. They don't know anything about it. They've not read any of that Stuff. But it is common for people to say that any distinction between the spiritual and the physical means you're agnostic. And whilenosticism

was definitely dualistic, that's not whatnosticism is in its essence. Greek religion was dualistic too, but not all Greek religion wasnosticism. So there there's a huge amount of confusion uh on that Subject. And so to say the guys who attacked Nostism for decades doesn't tell you anything. Now, does he have somebody in mind? Well, this was posted shortly after I preached Sunday afternoon at Apologia and I preached in Colossians 3. And so, have I um attacked umnosticism and spoken on it and lectured on it and identified elements of it within this Remember the stuff we Did

with the Ken Wilson stuff uh with Manakianism and stuff like that and and it embibing elements ofnosticism but coming up with some wild stuff. Yeah. Pooping that light. Um um I just had to bring that up. Well, I did. And and if you want to know what that's all about, um look it up. It's it's in the archives. It was during the uh it was during the lockdowns in in 2020. That would have been April May of 2020, I think. And we we were doing like Four or five programs a week. There wasn't anything else

to do. And um yeah, we were we were getting into it. It was it was wild stuff. Um so anyways, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you put pooping in the search search engine, it probably will. That's about the only thing it's going to pull up. Come to think of it. Um um yeah, look, they they saw the Milky Way. They saw they saw the lights in the sky. And it has to do with lights Returning to the realm of light. And yeah, uh it's it was Manakianism is just whacked. Okay. It just And to say that

that's where Calvinism came from, it's even more whacked. It's just like, oh, okay. Right. Um, anyhow, how do we Okay, so the guys who attacked Nazism for decades, I I guess that could be me, are now telling us that by grace we're all the same. Well, you know, I suppose a super superficial maybe secondhand listening of what I said in my sermon Might lead someone to make a statement like that because I was talking about Colossians chapter 3 and how there is no distinction whatsoever in the renewal of the new man by the Holy Spirit

of God amongst the saints, amongst the elect of God. I mean that's just a straight out statement from Colossians chapter 3. Just read it for yourself where he where Paul belabors the reality 310 112 um that there is no Distinction that the barbarian cyian slave free Jew gentile circumcised un there's there's no distinction. The spirit of God is doing the same thing in all the elect of God which is renewing them. renewing the new man in the image of the one that created them. So I suppose you could say that telling us that by telling

us that by grace we're all the same. Well, that's not saying that we're all the same as in the same Individual or undifferentiated or or that God hasn't called some of us to one role in the kingdom and you know another part in the service of the body. That's not what I was saying. I was saying that when we come to this the table, when we come to the supper, we come on the exact same grounds with no distinctions. And you can see why that's relevant given what we're going to be doing a week from

now. Uh very very central. Um so anyway, um so who is this about? I don't know. So I I asked him a question. Um I I said it's been my observation you tend to post statements that are vague, easily misunderstood and rarely provide a foundation for truly serious discussion. Having said that, I would like to ask you who specifically you are referring to who has attacked Nostism for decades. True Nostism has been the enemy of the Christian faith since the apostles. Of course, there were no there was no single narcissism and battling original gnostic ideas

is somewhat different than battling Valentinian Nostism or many of the modern mutations thereof. Secondly, who is saying that by grace we're all the same? In what context? By intentionally not providing context, you invite speculation, even division are you referring to are you referring to us all being of one humanity, one standing Before God? Are we talking about believers in the body of Christ? I preached a sermon yesterday afternoon from Colossians 3 where Paul specifically says there is one renewal by the spirit in which there are in fact no distinctions whatsoever. All are renewed by the

spirit by the same means upon the same grounds and for the same purpose Christlikeness. You have often made passing references to me without naming me a bit of a game for you. I Surmise. How about coming out and speaking plainly for once? Answer. Nothing. Nothing. No response. He can post anything he wants. Doesn't matter. Some people said, "Well, he was talking about um James Lindsay and Jordan Peterson." And I'm like, "Uh, really?" Uh, how do you know that since he won't say? How can anyone know? I don't Know. But well, there had been a post

clip a clip had been posted somewhere around that time. So it's certainly not impossible. Um but no no response. Um but all sorts of people who want to comment and say, "Oh, I know." Um so what he means is plain. A guy named Peter Rickett says what he means is plain. Recon types have been calling anything that downplays the physical and outward gnostic. Then when someone addresses the outward and physical in a way they are uncomfortable with, those same recon types treat the outward and physical as irrelevant. Uh, no idea. Um, then Jesse G, wins

the debate. That's just happens all the time. It's just that's just something I don't even think half these people actually exist. I think there are bots that just look For this. Just go, you know, throw that out there. Um, Cromwell Jr. I'm old and fat and don't understand how the internet works. Yeah, that's that's deep deep, isn't it? Yeah. Wouldn't know anything about Cromwell for anything, but anyway. Um, so I didn't get didn't get a response. So, uh, it's like how do you how do you take someone like this seriously? Um, how do you even

engage with someone Like this? Seriously, it's it's hard to say. So, here we go. Um, yeah. Where'd it go? Did it go? Oh, I I did repost that Reggie Miller. That was 30 years ago. If someone if someone had told me to to guess, I I I was said 20 maybe at the most. 30 years ago. Um, so there was another one that uh was was posted and I didn't bother to Yeah, Here we go. Uh, here's here's what he said. He said, "Presuppositionalism is correct that people operate out of background assumptions. But those assumptions

are not conceptual. They are more like mental habits or assumptions enshed with their experience of the world. viz they have a world in the phenomenological sense. Simply affirming the right concepts does not itself eradicate these Assumptions. Objective contradiction does not eliminate what is ingrained subjectively. It takes self-awareness and active mental suppression. And more often than not, the concepts we come to affirm arise from these unrealized and uncriticized background assumptions. That's why quotech Christian worldview end quote today is typically a form of liberalism. The problem now remember anyways the problem is that preops think that getting

the concepts right is the Key when it's actually either active mental suppression which few will do or dominating the culture from which most people acquire their assumptions about the world. But in my experience, critiquing these modern background assumptions is grounds to be called pagan or uncchristian even by the worldview opponents. Now I I don't know what vast majority of that is even supposed to mean. He either just assumes that everyone has listened To everything he's ever said and that he actually has been clear in what he is saying or he's just a horrible communicator. Just

horrible. I I don't know. So I again responded to that and I I I was fairly brief this time. I said I would ask Dr. Wolf to engage with his statements but evidently he views X merely as a place to ruminate not to actually interact. I may have missed Wol's debates with atheists, Secularists, etc. But I sort of doubt I did. One thing's for certain, his grasp of the apologetic and epistemological issues relevant to presuppositionalism is well lacking. Um so you know when when everybody and and so so again you should debate him so everyone

can see and hear what only you currently envision with your mind just just like you know it's funny you know if that's coming from him that's Interesting I don't think it's coming from him I don't think he's the one going we need to be we need to do debates because I don't get the feeling he's a good debater at all I really don't from the people who listen to him speak. He's not compelling. Um, so I don't know. Uh, it's it's pretty strange, but again, there are certain topics um that could be Debated, but I

especially think that it would be good to do this in person. So, um, again, uh, Brother Durban has plainly expressed his interest in debating Wolf on the be happy to defend presuppositionalism. Those aren't his areas. Those aren't his areas. I mean, he knows next to nothing about theonomy, so he'd be very unwise to do that. And Um I I like I just said there don't he'd be very unwise to seek to debate me on the subject of presuppositionalism. One of the reasons being at least I've actually taken that out and done it. You know um

as far as I can tell he he doesn't do that. So even from his own perspective. So I don't know but what people want is well we want a Christian nationalism debate. Okay. Um what specifically Because evidently the big thing would be well let's have a debate over Christian princes and I' and I' I'd be like uh well we don't have anybody to look at right now. You people want a Protestant Franco which is scary. you're playing the same game as the Roman Catholic integralists are right now who are the Christian nationalists on the papal

side and they're all over the place right now with the uh pope and stuff. um all this kind of stuff And Chris. Okay. Um just something popped up that thought might be relevant but wasn't about all we could do would be do something like All right. So, and I don't know that he would ever respond to this to even get to the point of even asking a question, but do you believe that it was um proper from a biblical foundation For the canton of Geneva to burn the heretic Miguel Curvedus to death? Now, Curvedus had

been condemned by the Inquisition. The night before his burning, he escaped and made a beline for Geneva. And so, I have defended Calvin many times on this level. I have said the reformers were sacralists. They had embied this from What came before. They weren't coming up with something new here. Um, but that doesn't change the fact that you didn't wipe out Cervadus' heresy by burning him. And it does seem to me that most Christian nationalists, even the ones that are much more friendly, um, are like, "Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, that the the magistrate should uh

carry the sword to punish evildoers." And heresy's evildoing, and therefore the state should punish Heretics by killing them. Now, that was the exact same um reasoning that led to many Baptist martyrs at the hands of both Catholics and Protestants before, during, and after the Reformation. Well, I couldn't, but before the Protestants, but you get you get what I'm saying. And so the Baptist martyology, which is very extensive, came about because of a Belief that Romans 13 was saying that it is the um church's role, I'm sorry, the state's role to punish heresy. And you you

have to accept the idea of development in theology to come to that conclusion because it's clearly not in the New Testament. When Paul's talking to Felix, he's talking to him about righteousness and the coming judgment. He's not saying, "Hey, you need to be using the Power of the state to um, you know, suppress the protonic heretics or whatever, you know, other heresies. You know, go get the Judaizers. You know, it was the Judaizers trying to get him. He was in prison because the Judaizers were sacralists and they were using the government uh to suppress Christianity.

So, you know, unless you're going to argue, yeah, and Paul was trying to just turn that around the other way to use The government to get rid of them. I don't think I don't see that one. That I don't think so. Well, but the West Confession says the Yeah, there was still a fair amount of There was a Baptist burned or drowned, I forget which one it was, in London in 1611. So, you're only talking 30 years later. Sacralism doesn't just disappear. And as you know, there's a difference between the original Westminster Confession and the

American one on Issues just like this where the amount of sacralism left um in the original Westminster Confession was still more than the Americans could survive. They that they could allow to have happen. So you had had that change made. So, you know, maybe something about Curvedus and about Fritz Urba. I mean, Fritz Urba is a good example of a Um you know, contemporaneous and in fact, Urba dies before uh Served, but in a little bit of a different context, just basically thrown into a hole till he dies instead of burning him. But and the

the the level of heresy and the subject of the heresy very different. Uh Servdus was a heretic. Served Served tried to get Calvin killed. Served was a dangerous man. There's no two ways about that. Um but Fritz Urba was a farmer. Okay? He just wanted to live a Christian life and he didn't want to baptize his kids. He had read the New Testament as it had been published as been translated by Martin Luther himself and goes, "Yeah, that that don't teach nothing about baptizing babies." And he was right about that. It doesn't take a a

great theological mind to go, "Nah, I don't think so." you you got to do a lot Of theological wrangling to go, well, you take that and you take that and take that and you put it and there there you go. Um, it takes work. That's why it's all it's it's always easier for me. Remember remember what what happened last year uh last summer when we de debated uh new covenant in Hebrews? What was the primary response? Well, it's easier for you. Yeah, Hebrews. Yeah, it sound Yeah, it sounds like but there's you got to go

To a lot of other places. See, you can't you can't just can't just go to where the new covenant's actually defined. Um, you got to go out a lot of other places. Okay. Um, the man lost his life over that. So, was that was that appropriate? Was that proper? Is is is that something the easiest debate thesis would be is that something that can be derived and still believe in solos scriptora because I no you can't you can't drive that and actually believe in Solos scriptor at the same time that's pretty tough to do um

who knows uh something along those lines I I don't know but it's it's tiring to it's tiring to keep running into I'm just going to start assuming they're bots Um, you know, someone has set up some type of server farm someplace and it's just they they, you know, because they've got 23 followers and they run in and go, "Oh, just debate him. Just to blah blah blah blah blah blah." It's Like, "Oh, shut up." Uh, it's just you people are nuts. Um, oh, by the way, uh, and just in passing, I didn't even know about

this, but, uh, there's a wonderful young professor at IRBS, Timothy Decker, teaches Greek and textual criticism, stuff like that, needs a new heart, congenital heart malfunction, and he's in the ICU waiting for a heart. And I mean, he's I think he's younger than my son. I really do. Uh so, um real nice guy. Let's pray for Timothy Decker that um that they're able to find a a match um and that he's able to to get that surgery because he really really needs it. Evidently, while he's in ICU, he somehow stumbled across my Fritz Urba YouTube

video, the you know, less than five minute thing. and he he he says, "Why have I never seen this? So powerful. I bet those guys had visible shutters and chills. Great stuff." And um yeah, I I re I retweeted it because that that was a powerful video that we Did. I remember that day very very clearly. I really do. U it was um Well, yeah. I mean, they're all they're looking down that hole, man. Well, yeah, you're well, you're you're looking down that hole going, "Oh, man. What would I what would I do?" You know,

um, how would I respond? Could Could I would I possibly have stayed down that hole for seven years over baptism? I mean, you you could come up with a lot of different Ways to go. Yeah. Well, I think maybe, you know, we could find another way of doing that one. Um, we'll we'll come up with pain of baptism isn't all that bad. And then there you go. Okay. Now, got to find this thing here. I'm I'm There we go. What was the date on this? May 7th. So, yesterday. Yesterday morning, um Joel Webbon posted a

tweet That he's now written a big long I understand why people misunderstood what I wrote. And I'm I'm like, you know, guys, I I'll be honest with it. Are you all studying at the Steven Wolf School of Obscurantism or something? I I mean, honestly, u is it really that difficult to write something with some level of clarity? It just seems like the idea is throw out a statement that's right on The edge and then when everybody responds, you know, I'm sort of wondering, have they monet monetized their accounts? Because my understanding is when people respond

to you, the bigger their if if if someone has a lot of followers and they interact with you, that really kicks up your status or your income or I really have to wonder about because why else would you do This? Why else would you put stuff out there? It's right on the edge. It can be interpreted in some pretty bad ways. Uh and then it's like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I would never. No." But by then there's been all this interaction which would be really good for your bottom line. I'm really starting to

wonder if that because my my account is not monetized. Our YouTube is not monetized. Um, no. So, I have a reason to try to be clear. Now, sometimes people go, "Oh, I didn't understand this one." That's because it was like the fourth tweet in a context. They hadn't even bothered to read what came before. Nothing you can do about that. But this is a one-off. Here's the one-off. If you're a heterosexual white male and you're excommunicated from a Protestant church in 2025, there's a 99% chance it was because you're actually a real Christian. If you're

a heterosexual male, dot dot dot blank space, and you're excommunicated from a Protestant church in 2025, dot dot dot blank space, there's a 99% chance it was because you're actually a real Christian. Uh, so a lot of us jumped on that, needed To. anybody who's involved in ministry because it is clearly so vague that it could be understood that this is a a blanket statement um that could be taken by anyone who go comes under church discipline. I'm a victim. the church is victimizing me. I'm the real Christian. And we see this all the time.

Uh church discipline issues. Uh look, if anyone plays games with these things, it's obvious to me they've never actually been involved with them with the right motives. Because churches that do church discipline, that do honest, we're talking counseling, meetings, investing of time, bring it before the church, and then the final act of excommunication. Everybody involved in ministry who has had to go through that knows it is the most heart-rending, energy sapping, joy removing experience that you that you go through. I mean some things performing marriages and seeing new families starting and greeting new babies and

grandb babies and all that's all wonderful Stuff but man the counterbalance is is right there and it's having to do church discipline most of the time it's from sexual sin it's from uh inappropriate divorces um adultery, fornication, maybe things like theft or abandonment. Real, you know, that that happens a lot. Um not nearly as much for rumor mongering, slandering, gossip, though Those are very much listed in the New Testament as things that destroy churches. And nobody who takes all that seriously jokes about it. It's sort of like it's sort of like, you know, when Saving

Private Ryan came out many years ago, there are lots of stories about because this was man, how many years ago was that now? Over 20. Um, there were still veterans of the D-Day invasion Alive and there were stories about how they many of them were coming out of the the theaters in tears, had to leave before the movie was over, stuff like that because it was so real, but also because they had never talked about it. The people that survived that, that were on those beaches, they weren't the ones running around writing books and doing

movies, they didn't talk about it. And I knew That generation and I knew people who live through that stuff. They didn't sit around talking about because it was too horrible. They didn't want to. And so if you've gone through just heartbreaking examples of having to do church discipline, trying to trying to recover people from where they're going wrong, you don't joke about stuff like this and you don't use it as a as a ploy like this. You just don't. And so, you know, I responded to it and I and I said, "This is this is

how how do I put it?" I Tom Ascll did too. Pretty much said the same things I did. I said, "I confess I have no idea how anyone with a centilla of actual pastoral experience navigating the heartbreaking yet necessary process of church discipline could even contemplate posting something Like this, something this utterly vacuous." The liberals who would be woke don't do excommunications to begin with. And so you're only left with sound churches seeking to apply God's law and God's standards. The target of this foolishness just utterly amazing. So it wasn't big long thing but I

was just like this is foolishness. So what you get the comments just start filling up. How many 85 comments just on that that One statement? I had a friend during CO and he got kicked out of his church because he wouldn't wear a mask. Um, that's not what the OP was talking about. It's not what the original post is talking about, was it? I have a friend and his son came out as homosexual and he did the proper biblical thing and the church supported the homosexual and he committed suicide. Someone actually said That said, "Okay,

how does that even qualify as a Protestant church?" That was one of the things was Protestant church. What's that? Is the United Methodist Church today a Protestant church? Is it even a church? United Church of Christ, PCUSA, Episcopalians. um that that's why the the the lack of clarity, the lack of specificity was so clear. I mean, honestly, you mean there was they did The same things we would do, you know, biblical counseling? No, of course they weren't doing any of that kind of stuff. Yes, the the woke churches will throw you out if you're Orthodox.

What are you doing there in the first place? Seriously, what what what why would you why would any um heterosexual white male serious Christian be in a woke nutcase church to begin With? I I again this was because you write it in such a way as to allow all this then you can duck and dodge and go why did it mean this? Why didn't mean that? So he wrote this big long response to me. Um, every church excommunicates every single one. True churches, false churches, all. That's not true. Simply not true. Um, he's obviously decided

that he has the authority to redefine What excommunication means. Okay. Uh some of us silly people were, you know, using soloscura and allowing the Bible to find this stuff, you know. Um he did say he said there were plenty of perfectly reasonable objections to the lack of clarity in my original post. Okay, that's that's nice. um I suppose uh on on some level uh but I honestly do think it was intentional. Anyways, he says Um over the years I've spoken to dozens if not over 100 Christians that were kicked out of their seeker friendly megaurches

simply for holding to reformed theology and sharing with others in their small groups. I've not met a single one that was formally excommunicated. I have had people that said, "Would you please leave? you can't teach her anymore, etc., etc., but to actually bring them up on theological charges, Um, I suppose it's happened and then they were more than happy to leave, but what does that have to do with being a male heterosexual in 2025 for being a real Christian? you are absolutely changing the well again you you purposefully put it out there so you could

change topic to whatever you want to make about reformed theology has nothing to do with reformed theology had nothing to do at all um in other words it is certainly true That only biblically faithful churches excommunicate biblically but all churches companies organizations etc have ways of removing people now you're totally changing everything now talk about you didn't just move the goalpost you put it in a different stadium and they all do so regularly. Um, so would such a church, a biblically faithful one, excommunicate someone for being a faithful Christian? Yes, absolutely. Yes. Emphatically, yes. Luther

was a faithful Christian. He was excommun excommunicated in 2020. Hold on. Luther was a faithful Christian. He would be excommunicated in 2025 by most reformed churches. Um, look, Luther would be excommunicated by a lot of Lutheran churches, okay? Um but Luther look I've stood in the room where the Marberg colloquy took Place and it was Luther that was pounding his finger on the tabletop. Hulas corpus mayam this is my body and the people there in general recognized Zwingley had the better arguments and was much more respectful to Luther so Luther wouldn't join a reformed church

and hence would not be excommunicated by reformed church so it doesn't historically you just Go what are you talking about what are you talking about um Calvin was a faithful Christian he would be excommunicated in 202 25 by most reformed churches. Edwards was a faithful Christian. He would be excommunicated in 2025 by most reformed churches. Dabney was a faithful Christian. He'd be excommunicated in 2025 by most reformed churches. So evidently what he wanted to do was he wasn't talking about Protestant churches. He was talking about reformed churches. So if you're in a reformed church and

you get extra communicated according to Joel Webbon, it's probably because you're a true Christian. which would mean that the people in most reformed churches are not true Christians. Right. Right. Um so here's here's the the kicker. Sadly, many churches, even Reformed churches, have albeit often annoyingly blended several aspects of 20th century century liberalism. Read post-war consensus with scripture such as uh Israel, Jews, uh one key point in my original post is my designation of the year 2025. I do not believe this has always been the case even in recent years. Oh, so something fascinatingly new

is taking place. However, I believe we are quickly reaching a crux. There is a massive Return to older views that many Christians have held throughout history. So that's that's them. Webbon did this thing about the the Gideon. They're they're in the phase two of the Gideon thing and there's going to be people leaving them, but they're the ones pressing forward and they're doing all this stuff. Um, so older views, uh, by the way, this is exactly what Corey Mer says, too. Just happens To be the same thing. Um, not just topics such as nationality, race

in Israel, but traditional views regarding me, men and women, and the biblical teaching of patriarchy. Um, so what happened here? I must have h you know when you copy stuff out of out of Twitter things disappear and something did disappear. It disappeared smack dab in the middle of the sentence. Sorry I can't finish Reading that but that happens when copying to plain text. Anyway, so this is this is the idea. We we this group they believe that they are leading a reformation. They really do and they are coming out of reformed churches. They used to

identify themselves as reformed churches. But if you just if you just read this would be exccommunicated in 2025 by most reformed churches. So we are not most reformed Churches. We are charting our own course. We're going a new direction and we are departing from the reformed churches. I'm not sure what they're going to be calling themselves. But we are departing and our accusation is that these reformed churches are themselves in apostasy that they would excommunicate true believers like us. Um and that their apostasy is some kind of Um they have blended several aspects of 20th

century liberalism with scripture. Well, be specific. You know, I'm getting tired of long house conversations and all the rest of this stuff. Get the Bible out. Well, and do something more than what you've y'all have been doing. Uh because what y'all have been been doing has um been really bad. Um okay. Yeah. Like I said, for some reason what I copied picked up something else, put it below that. Um, this kind of throw stuff out and then pretend that you've been misrepresented and you're now a victim and all the rest of this stuff. Uh, I'm

I'm really tired of it. Christians should be truth speakers. If you're going to speak, speak plainly. Put it out there. um don't don't do This type of thing. And some of them are doing that fairly clearly. But when they're doing that fairly clearly, it's very clear that they have abandoned the positions that only 18 months ago they were doing conferences on as being the means of saving America. But now, where will they be 18 months from now? Good question. That's a That's a good question. So, okay, last thing as we get ready to Sign off

here. I saw I just saw this meme posted. Um, it's it's got it's about re redeemed Zoomer. Now, you know, you've got reformed Zoomer and redeemed Zoomer. And evidently, redeemed Zoomer is this young kid who is in a PCUSA because he's going to save the PCUSA. And he thinks that all the rest of us out here, well, I don't think he thinks reformed Baptists are reformed. He's one of those Types of guys. But um that um anybody who left those denominations was capitulating. So you know, man, Warfield, Hajj, all the Princeton guys. Um and so

it's got a a tweet from April 6th of this year from Redeemed Zoomer. And the tweet reads, "Evolution is true, based, awe inspiring, and God Glorifying. God can raise up children of Abraham from stones so he can raise up children of himself from bacteria." And then the meme is, "This is it. My magnum opus. What do you guys think?" There's a picture of a of a some guy marked Christians, some guy marked scientists. They're both going. And then one guy, it's got a big old grin on his face, is the liberal apostate church. He's saying

he's reforming. It's going, "Yeah, I like That. I like that." I I got to admit, I uh I see this kid posting stuff and I just shake my head and go, "Okay, I'm a little confused, but I'll I'll just move on from here." Anyhow, all right. So, uh in 1 hour and 22 minutes, uh I will be joining uh Dr. Tony Costa on his program yet once again and uh we are going to be um actually discussing Samuel Se's conversation with Corey Mer but obviously that's sort of a one week ahead of debate pre-show type

of a situation. Um, so if uh if you want to I I thought I had posted that link. I I lose track of things. So, um, look up Tony Costa's webcast and join with us because I know it's live because he has what what do you call the super chat things where people donate money and stuff like That. Yeah, I know. I know. We're the only people who don't do it. But um there you go. Um but I'll be on with him, like I said, at 4:30 our time, which is 7:30 uh Eastern Daylight Time.

No one's on standard time right now. No one. Well, we are. We are in Arizona. Always are. Uh but that's why we're the only people on this earth that understand the difference between standard time and daylight time are people live in Arizona because we don't Do it. I've lost track. At least four times recently, someone was setting up a time for me to be on. And they all said, "EST." And I said, "But there's no one on EST." And they're like, "What? Keith Loski?" Keith Loski was like, "What? What? What are you talking about?" I

said, "Did you play with your clocks a few weeks ago?" "Yeah, that means you're on daylight time." I didn't know that. They didn't know. Everybody I've talked To, the guy that I was the program I did uh Tuesday, same thing. He he had put EST. And I said, "Don't you mean EDT?" I don't know what's the difference because they don't they don't ever have to deal with it. Everybody's doing it so they never even have to give they're always playing with their clocks and so it's just like, well, whatever. You know, it's like, yeah, okay,

we're the we're the only people that understand this mess. So anyway, which means Probably Trump will end up forcing us to go to go permanently on daylight savings time because that's what that's what the the talk is is just make daylight savings time standard which would mean we'd be back to it being the 1st of July 10:00 at night it's still bright outside and it's 114 degrees you're trying to go to sleep that's why we voted it out remember what was it 778 I think we did it and then we out of here. Forget it.

Voted it right Back out again. Yeah, that would be worth uh armed rebellion over. Come and get it, good boy. You just bring the army in and try to make us play with our clocks. We ain't going to do it. And besides that, outside of the universities, we still got a lot of guns in Arizona. So, go away. Yeah. So, there you go. All righty, guys. Uh thanks for listening to the program. Oh, by the Way, next Tuesday I'll be on with with Chris Arnson, Iron Sharpens Iron, also talking about the upcoming thing. So, uh,

it's it's going to get covered in a lot of different ways, I would assume. Um, just just pray that there won't be any technical difficulties. That's the one thing I that's one thing about nonin-person debates is, you know, we've had we've had the internet just go uh down here and so we'll find out. All right, thanks for Watching. We will see you next time. God bless.