The Controversy of Valladolid Based on a Spanish papal tribunal 1550, Valladolid, Spain My dear brother receives the blessing of our St Father. In nomine patris et Filii et spiritus sancti. Amen. Let’s pray God which grants here his light to us. My dear brothers, since, by the grace of God the kingdom of Spain discovered and conquered the Indies of the west and that some call already the “New World”. Has for the time now raised difficult questions that nothing in the world history could predict. One such questions and the most important never received a clear and complete
answer. That’s why we are here! This new world has natives who have been conquered and subdued in the name of the true God. For nearly thirty years, some rumors have been spread in Europe saying that the natives of Mexico and the Islands of News Spain are wrongly treated by the Spanish conquerors. These rumors, that enemies of Spain, Netherlands, England, France, can have exaggerated reached His Holiness the Pope. He was highly moved. More especially that these maltreatments occur in the name of our sacred religion. The Holy Father shows his compassion for the population of the new
lands and it seems that his instructions have not been always respected neither the law nor the payments for the crown. Today the Holy Father sent me to you with a precise mission. To decide, if these indigenous are completed and true human beings, God's creatures, our brothers descending from Adam. Or they are, as some maintain, a distinct category, or even subjects of the devil himself. At the end of our debate the decision that I will take will be ipso facto confirmed by the St Father and will become therefore irrevocable. We are here, in Valladolid in this
convent where Brother Gregorio has had the kindness to welcomed us some witnesses and participants and first of all the very famous Brother Bartolomé of the Scasas who knows the new World well and who several times took defense of these indigenous. Opposite side we have master Sepulveda himself. His philosophical works are very well known. His erudition and the penetration of his spirit will be precious. If among us somebody desires to speak let us know by raising the hand. I hope that God will assist us and by his grace, we will keep conscience and dignity. Brother Bartolomé
you have the first word. Eminence Our Lord Jesus said: “I am the truth and the life” I will try to speak the truth about those that we are removing their life. Because it is the truth we are destroying them. since the discovery and the conquest of the Indies the Spanish have not stopped enslaving torturing and massacring the Indians. what I have has to say is so dreadful that I do not know how to start. We could fill an enormous book. take your time. Since the whole first contacts. Spanish have been consumed by the thirst for
gold. It is all which they claim gold! gold! bring us gold! So much that the natives said "what do they do with all that gold?" They must eat it. All is subjected to gold, all! Also since the beginning, the poor Indians are treated like animals deprived of reason. They are branded with their owner's name to their face! sold from owner to owner branded again and again! These marks accumulate on their faces who becomes like draft paper. They die per thousands in the mines with ungodly stench. These mines are worse than hell, dark and wet. Vultures
circling above the mines, so many they hide the sun. you also spoke about massacres. yes! Eminence it is per millions that they were exterminated. Yes! by millions like beast in a slaughterhouse. by which procedure? Every possible way! impaled on spits them by groups of thirteen set over fire and cooked. or hands hacked off then released in the woods and told to "spread the words" What words? Carry the message! Show to the others who we are. yes! Why groups of thirteen? To honor the Christ and the twelve apostles. Yes! I am telling you the truth. The
Lord has been honored, by all human horrors. Everything imaginable! Children held by their feet and their skull craked against rocks. Or cooked alive, or drowned Or thrown to starving dogs which bite into them like hogs Bets made on who could disembowel a woman in a single stab! Brother Bartolomé you are speaking about sad miseries of war... War! what war? These people were not at war. they came to us all smiling, their faces open, interested in us, laden with fruits, presents. And we brought to them death in the name of Christ! Eminence! this is blasphemy? This
sacred place permit everything to be said beside it's all known to God. All what I saw, I saw it being done in the name of Christ! I saw the Spaniards tear the fat of a living breathing Indians to rub on their own wounds! Alive! I saw it! I saw our soldiers hack off noses, ears, a tongue, hands, women's nipples a man's penis, hack off like a tree limb! for the fun of it! To distract themself! I saw, in Cuba, in a place called Caonao, Spanish soldiers There they sharpened their swords on stones, then they advanced
to a village and said: let’s test the edge of our weapons? A first Spaniard drew his sword, the others did the same, and they disemboweled at random, all the villagers! All massacred! Blood everywhere! You were present? I was their chaplain, I ran crazed everywhere! It was a spectacle of horror and terror! I saw it! Another time I saw a soldier, laughing, as he stuck his knife into a child's guts, and then this child running away holding his innards. Again in Cuba They were getting ready to kill one of their chiefs without any reason and burn
him alive. A monk approached the man to talk about our faith. He asked him if he wanted to go to heaven or to suffer in hell. The cacique told him: "will all Christians go to heaven?" "Yes" said the monk, "some do". "Then" said the cacique, "I prefer to go to hell instead of being with such cruel men." I saw so much cruelties that no one would imagine. No words, no stories could describe what I saw. Eminence, Christians have lost their fear of God. They have forgotten who they are. Yes, millions, I did say millions! In
Cholula in Mexico and Tapeacas entire population had their throats cut! in the name of St Jacques! And it was easy! Because these men did not have any weapons like us nor of horses. Do you know Eminence in certain place Spanish use the blood of these men to water their fields. From time to time a Captain will tell the soldiers: "to cut off chunk of thigh, and feed it to the dogs " as if they were sides of mutton! In some camps! There are shelves of human flesh! Thighs, breasts hung on hooks! The Indians were fed
of Indian flesh it was cheap! Some said the Spanish eat it too. Enough! Enough! It is in the human nature, Brother Bartolomé to speak a lot, without thinking. I let you talk, I notice your emotion, your anger. I listened well. But I must remind you that it is not this question that concerns us. We should not decide on the cruelty of the Spanish. We must decide on the nature and quality of these indigenous. Do you understand me? yes I understand you that’s why I am asking you, What are they like? I suppose that we will
not retain the assumption that they are servant of the devil. well! I mention this legend only to show its excess. Satan has no border, it would be too easy to put limits. He is everywhere! Within each of us! So, what are they like? As Colombus himself said, the first who met them "I cannot believe there are better men" Meaning? They are beautiful Eminence. They are peaceful and meek like sheep They want nothing from you. Generous, open. They always welcome you well? Always! No lies, no trickery? With a total ingenuity. They cannot lie. I cannot say
it better. They were the picture of the paradise. Do they seem intelligent? They do. Absolutely. Like us? Without any doubt. They appear sometimes very ignorant and very credulous. They were impressed by omens. The emperor of Mexico wanted to sacrify himself. Montezuma! yes it was said, I was not there. An antique belief predicted their savior would return from Orient. Cortes a clever captain, who was your friend I believe, was aware of this prophecy. He played along from the beginning. But they quickly understood that Spanish did not come from heaven. When Montezuma met Cortes the first time
with splendid gifts. He told him: "I am of flesh and blood like you" Are they capable of Christian feeling? Of course. They welcome our faith. But look at the example we give. What can they think of God, that Christians, who slaughter them, claiming this is just and right? Do you know what a man told me one day? Tell us. He told me: "yes I feel a little Christian, because I can already lie a little." Tell us now. How do they react to those atrocities? Eminence I told you. They are so friendly, and we strike them
so hard they could not fight back. so they have been driven to despair. Mothers have killed their babies to keep them from being our slaves. More infants are born dead, because of certain herbs the mothers take. Do you remember, Eminence, the Ecclesiasticus's words? Which verse? It was a shock for me. I came across it one day by chance. The bread of the poor is their life. The one which deprives them is a murderer. These creatures live without love of life. Man do not touch woman, to avoid any descendant. They are crushed by disease, brought by
us, by raping them. Yes, they lost any desire of life. An entire nation dying in the name of Christ. Soon there won't be a single soul left. So, according to you Brother Bartolomé they are God's creatures. They are our brothers. Redeemed by the blood of Christ? Yes Eminence just like us. Professor would you like to step in now? if it pleases your Eminence. Brother Bartolomé From boyhood you were attracted by the new lands? I went there I was 18 years old. Didn’t you receive some lands? yes! I managed them well, I believe. Later after your
ordination Did you celebrate your first mass in the new world? yes! Once became member of the Church. Didn’t you try several time to found one colony? gathering natives and Spaniards and putting them to work? I tried, especially at Coumana. You were in favor of a peaceful conquest. You wanted to establish the country of true peace. later! in Guatemala it is not true it ended in a bloodshed? At Coumana yes, my Spanish associate turn out to be rabid wolves. Isn't it strange that it's always the Spanish's fault? What do you mean? Strange? I listened you to
speak, watched you and a thing became clear to me that I suspected according your writing. From the beginning these tribes fascinated you. And we could even say, seduced you. Why? I do not know. But we can see that you speak with excess. I speak about what I saw. Excess in the facts! not in my words. However I would not teach you anything by telling you that some travelers like you, went there! Accuse you of losing your mind. If I lost my mind Eminence, why did you ask me to come here? What am I doing here?
If I am crazy! No you are not crazy! but sometimes we think we are the truth We all know that. and something in you got confused! Scrambled! from seeing the truth. These Indians you talk about, you were blind, to their true nature. For example? you insist that they are as gentle as sheep but if they are like sheep, then they are not men! Who can say that the man is gentle... but Christ says it! He never stopped saying it! Turn the other cheek! yes! but he also says: "I did not come to bring peace, but
the sword" The Christ likes this fight! He loves this conquest! or why would he have allowed these massacres? and why did he allow? Because the Indians deserve their fate. Their sins and their idols are a constant offence to God. The wars we conduct against them are just. What sins are you talking about? Who is scrambled here? Who is blind? I ask you a question. This young boy you spoke about stabbed and who held his innards in his hands. You saw this? With my eyes. and what did you do? I grabbed him, quickly spoke about God,
Christ as I could. I baptized him, he died in my arms. The salvation of his soul seemed important to you? Of course! I could not save anything else. Eminence I would retain initially this point. The salvation of the soul! You suppose then that they have a soul? I will obviously reconsider this point. Before that It is necessary to remind you a number of facts that the emotion of my opponent may have masked. We are listening. First, a general question. It is not established, It is not perfectly certain that all nations on earth, without exception were
created to one day become Christian? Yes, this truth is established. And we must do everything to lead them to the true faith? This cannot be argued. All human beings without exception are predestinated. They are all part of the mystical body of the Christ, because the Christian religion is the universal way. The divine forgiveness was granted to all the nations to renounce to the infidelity. is it not true? It is absolutely true! Our Franciscan brothers even believe that God's reign on earth is near. And that celestial happiness will soon manifest itself. As soon as the last
infidels are converted. We are very convinced. Our victory over the Moors was the first prove of the good grace of God. The ease with which the new lands were conquered is another sign, very clear. And how the Indians could believe that we act in the name of God? They are calling us "yares" which means Demon! For them we come from hell, lead by the devil. You believe it? Borther Bartolomé do you believe sincerely that, the Spanish are demons? Yes Eminence. On this new lands, something demoniac possesed the conquerors. They became Demons, yes I believe it.
Demons? Yes So the faith I bring to them is perverse. What is the link between the Gospel and the sword? How can I preach? Instead of convincing them, because of the blood we brought, we false the picture of God. But since you say that the native are similar to us. Then they are also Demons! Forgive me, Eminence I cannot receive this argument It is badly articulated Then rearticulate it! Spanish soldiers are Human but the thirst for gold transforms them into Demons. Continue professor. All the nations on earth intend to be Christian, To be touched by
the words of Christ. Then we discover an unknown population that never heard about our Lord, or redemption, or the cross! Ah! but yes! We found evidence of crosses. No!! No!! Nothing serious! You vainly tried to prove that this continent had been visit by apostles. This is false! Never the word of Christ was brought there before. What does it mean? It means that they are not God's creatures. And I will prove it. Initially like we said. By the extreme easy fight. 300 Spanish soldiers subdue a mighty empire of 20 million inhabitants! This will not be seen
as the hand of God? No event in any time can’t be compared to this conquest. Even disease was on our side. The small pox epidemic was the work of God to clear up the road! The infidels were dying like flies! Because God wished to exterminate them! Today, they are forced to demolish their temples in Mexico, many die every day. Crushed under the rocks! How not to see a divine punishment? Same for the mines! I know that sometimes It may look like human cruelty. But how to explain that natives obey to the Spanish so easily. Are
they not already folded by the hand of God? And through in hell! It was also said that in the mines they die because of their libertinage. Of their sodomite habit. But what am I hearing! Libertinage in the mines! Brother Bartolomé! Eminence, shall I laugh or cry? Tell me! Be quiet, please be quiet! But I can't! You claim to see the signs of God everywhere! What does that mean? To see only the signs which are good for us! Put God on our side! by saying God is my interest! This justifies my crimes! This time you go
too far! No one here may question God's choice! I categorically ask you to keep quiet. Go ahead Professor. Assimilate the Spanish to Demons. What aberration, what madness. The natives themselves recognized that the conquerors were sent by God. They were convinced. Call Indians "innocent" I don't follow you. They sacrificed to their idol, thousands, tens of thousands of victims. 80 thousand for the consecration of their Mexico's temple. This number hasn't been proven. But it is the most barbarian! The Bloodiest nation! Sodomites, Yes! And... Cannibal! You forgot to mention this. Their belly full of human flesh. They killed
Spaniards and they ate them! Some using Christians' skins as clothes for dance! And you speak of paradise. You said that they cannot lie. Yet they tricked you. Continuously! As soon as people can speak, they can lie! These Indians are ferocious savages. Not only it is right, but it is necessary to subdue them to slavery and their spirits to our true religion. Let us assume the absurd, that they are innocent. Our war will not be justified? A war to protect the innocents from their tyrannical chiefs. whose killing, eating their own. Professor I repeat it, we are
not here to speak about the war. These conquests are done. We are here the nature of these Indians. If they have a soul like ours? If they can pretend to the eternal life? Give me your opinion. Aristotle said it best: "Some human species are made to rule over others." Is it the case here? Yes Eminence. They are slaves by nature. This statement requires evidence. They ignore the use of metal, of firearms, and wheel. They carry their burdens on their backs like beasts during long walk. Their food is disgusting, like animals' feed. They paint themselves and
worship horrible idols. I will not talk again about human sacrifices. They are known to be stupid like small child or our idiots. They marry a lot. They don’t know the nature of the money and ignorant of the value of things. They trade broken glasses for gold. So what! It’s not because they don't adore gold and money Is it a reason to treat them as animal? Isn’t rather the opposite? Brother Bartolomé you will have your words later. Nothing will be left behind. For the moment remain quiet. Professor According to you the possession and the use of
the firearms would be a proof of the divine protection? A clear proof. However the Moors, they have firearms. They use them very well against us. They copied theirs from ours. Another point: You report the bloody sacrifices to their gods. Yes! cruel gods, horrible ! Like these people. It is indeed a demoniac horror. We agree. But If they are not at the same level of human being as we are. If they are closer to animals. Can we blame them for these sacrifices? You see my point. I understand the subtlety, your Eminence. They can be blame for
human sacrifices only if they are human. Eminence I say, for the moment, their ignorance and naivety know no bounds. And us! Were we not naive and ignorant? Did we have sirens and amazons? men with head in their chests, pygmies wraping themselves in theirs ears. Eminence the world is full of dream and rumors. This continent was unknown to us. It grew up isolated for thousands of years. The encounter amazed everyone. Because nothing was similar. Even the animals, the trees were different species. They didn’t have, cows, sheep. Why in two such different worlds should the human condition
alone be the same? Eminence, all indicate that God designed them under our power. You must also know that they are unable to understand the simplest things. Like the redemption of Christ or the pardon of the confession. They do not have any activity of the soul. No idea of art. I can't let pass that! No activity of the soul! At Mexico City, Fransiscans opened a school Isn't true? Where the sons of the Aztec princes receive our education. They have the same results that the Spanish. Isn't true? Some even learned Latin verse. You said the sons of
princes. And their architecture? Before we destroyed all their cities. Cortez wrote to the King of Spain that he never saw anything so beautiful on these lands He said “anything comparable in Spain, the most beautiful thing in the world”. And this sentence: "Some of us asked, if what we see is but a dream?" A dream! The conqueror in need of power cannot belitlle his conquest. And their irrigation system? writing? their arithmetic? their drawing? their knowledge of the sky! Their calendar, more precise than our. How barbarians without God achieved so much? Their societal structure? Their zoos? Nothing
similar in Europe. Nothing! It was not our war. Eminence you have never journeyed to the New Indies? No I've not the heart of an explorer. So to give you an idea of their "art". I brought one of their idols made out of stone. Can I show you? Now? Since we talk about it. Stop. Remove the cover It is one of their gods called: "The plumed serpent" "Qetzacoat" They worship that? Yes, in all their temples Temples that emit the vile stenche of a slaugtherhouse. The monsters before whom they kneel. Whom their priests, if one can use
this word, open the breast of the living men with a stone knife and pull out their bleeding hearts. It is indeed very ugly. Horrible. It is really repulsive. How to compare this to Italians sculptures. Or to Berruguete. they think this is art? Eminence This is just one example, a sample You should see their entire art They make also frescos, fabrics clay figurines. They sculpt stones. We cannot compare what is not comparable. They have true artists. With bird’s feathers Yes... we shall stop here with the feathers Brother Bartolomé you are very excited you need some rest.
Myself I need to think. We will resume this discussion tomorrow morning. Who are you? What are you doing here? what are you doing here? Stop! Stop! Stop! what are you doing in this monastery? We came from Mexico. We live there. We heard about this debate. Do you have farms over there? Do you manage them? Yes Eminence. Mines too? Yes some mines. You arrived from there directly? We arrived three days ago. Come to see me after the dinner. What is it? It is nothing, it is mine. Don’t worry about that. I suppose you're worried for your
farms? For your incomes? That's why you are here? It is normal. It’s human. If God put gold in earth, he meant for us to find it and use it. But Do not think that Rome is not informed of what's happening there. We sent secret emissary. We have their detailed reports. Eminence Our situation is not easy. It took a large effort to put the land in culture. The country is rude and hostile. I have a brother who died there. The Indians hate working for us. Some time they prefer to die. But life is nothing to them.
They kill themselves to pass the time. I am not sure that when you're dead time passes more quickly. We do what we can for them. We look after them, we show them our tools. We teach them our language. But naturally we are worried. If our conditions will change. If what was told to us is not true any more. Are you a good Christians? Certainly Eminence! You go to confession? You take communion? Every week Eminence. We will have a bishop in our province. Then trust the Church. It is our mother to all. No matter what the
Church decides, it is right. Always right. Therefore you must show your obedience. You can leave. Tomorrow if you wish, you can attend the debat. Is it safe? God speaks through many voices. Anything else? No, I am fine. Good night. Sleep in peace Eminence. Let the light of our Lord be with us today, as yesterday. Amen Yesterday Professor Sepulveda gratified us by a blow of success by producing his plume serpent. It served its purpose. Today it is my turn to surprise you. I asked myself what would be the best way to decide in conscience and I
finally choose to bring here, to Spain, a few specimens of this Indian species. It seemed to me having them here It will be easer for us to examine them at length to see if they are or are not like us. Let them in... Eminence you sent a mission there? Yes it took months. Apparently we have a man alone. Who is in Spain since sometime now. He is a kind of acrobat, I believe. And then, a family. The father, the mother, a child... Their name is too complicate I cannot read it. But that's not important. They
come from Mexico. Let us examine them without bias. Brother Emiliano who learned their language will be the interpreter. To save time, I asked for a doctor's report, on their physical condition, which is in any case similar to ours except for one difference. The men have no beards and hardly no body hairs. What does that tell us? I asked myself. There is nothing in the scriptures that say a man created in God's image has to have a beard. Does someone know about this? One point I should like to settle! Are we sure that their females can
be impregnated by the Spanish? Yes, it is certain! There have been cases? Thousands of women have been raped. And impregnated? Certainly! many of them. I ask only because some said that chimpanzee females in Africa were made pregnant by Portuguese. It turned out to be pure invention. You confirm the fact? Yes, Eminence. No question. The children born from these unions are viable and well-formed? Unless exception, yes, Eminence. I thank you. Before we do anything Eminence. These men and this woman are cold. They come from a warmer country They are sensitive to the cold. They are shaking.
They are sick. Most of those we brought back have died. Encouraging the belief that they were weaker than us and so God strike them down. Blankets. ... language... You speak their language? Hardly a hundred of words. Do you know them? No Eminence. By their clothes which place they held in their society? Hard to say , they put their festival costumes. More and more, they dress like us. Because they prefer our clothes? Because they are forced. Go close to them. Ask them who they are? This one especially. Yes this one, here we are If you wish
to examine them more closely Please do so. ... language... He says he's the son of an employee of the Emperor's register His parents died. Now he works for the Spanish in Mexico as mason. Has he heard of the true faith? Does he believe in God? Ask him. ... language... He remains faithful to his ancestors's gods. To this horror? Yes Eminence. Nonsense! Has anyone explained to him about the miracles? Many time, we even have to argue. They heard about the Blessed Virgin? Of course they are interested but... Someone brings iron tool, a big hammer, go on!
What is their argument? They say “it is the belief of our fathers” “We always worshiped these gods”. “We don't want the antique rule of life destroyed”. They have been told that these gods can not protect them? That their Religion is foolish and powerless before ours. We told them? And what do they say? Their defeat shaked them. Our preaching confuses, puzzles them. They thought that nothing should have change. They say: "Word of gods became obscure. We do not understand it any more ". Yes, "our gods choose to be silent" "Who will comeback to give us the
words?” "nothing will be as before?" "Should we disappear for ever?" They are too thick to see the truth. No! many have converted. The reports I have seen doubt the sincerity of these new "converts". and Brother Emiliano himself... This attachment to their belief is natural. all the nations are attached to their thoughts They are curious about us, as I said. They look at us as we look at them. They listen to us, they understand us. Most of them follow us, but they were alone for very a long time, isolated. One moment Yes I would like to
say to Brother Bartolomé one thing Very simple. Say it simply then. Two things. Either they are like us. Created in God's image and saved by the blood of his son. In this case they cannot be allowed to deny the truth. Or they are another species. What is your sincere feeling professor? They are from another category. And born to be dominated. As form rules matter, a soul, the body. a man, the animal. a husband, a wife. a father, a son. It is a natural order. Established for the good of all. The one who was born slave
If he remains without Master he is lost. He gets erased of this earth. All of that it just a word games. Sophistry! We cannot decide on their nature by logic. I understand why logic bothers you, you speak in contradiction. You say they are gentle, humble. And that the Spanish are cruel monsters. And you say at the same time. That they are like us. We see that they reject our faith. But if the Christ wanted it, wouldn't they be Christians? Isn't this true? Isn't this true? The fact that they reject the Gospel is the proof of
what I say. They are by birth set outside of the divine grace. They do not reject Christ. It is Christ who doesn't want them in his kingdom. Cover them, cover them. You, yes you. Come here Hit their Idol. We shall see how they react. Go ahead hit it! You are not afraid? Hit it, they are used to! You saw that. He almost reacted. Yes, but his wife stopped him. What does that prove? it proves that they can think. To estimate the situation. Do they feel pain? You wish to see? Here, in a monastery! Yes they
suffer. like us when they are struck. What about psychological pain? Can they be melancholic? Yes I told you. They have all the reasons to be sad. Can they feel homesick? Do they understand eternel damnation? Yes they have a kind of hell. and paradise? Yes they live after death. and they are the notion of the soul. Do they believe in forgiveness of sin? Do they believe in the resurrection? Do they have a memory? Do they have love for their God? Do they believe in the Immaculate Conception? Do they practice the prayer? Do they believe in the
purgatory? Do they believe in St Sacrament? Do they believe in the last judgment? You, yes you, come here. Go up to them. Grabe the child. Grabe the child and threaten to hurt him. We will see then. ... language... No! don’t talk to them! Back off! and you, grabe the child! threaten him, go ahead! No Eminence, don’t do this! Seize the child, I am telling you! It is over now! Stop, stop. Put your sword in the sleeve. Talk to them now, reassure them. Tell them it was a mistake..., a game... What ever you want... Eminence, we
must stop this examination. It is a cruel and unnecessary. They have the same heart as us. Animals also defend their young. Especially the females it is a law of nature. Both males were not so brave. One of them didn’t even move. It is not his child. Precisely they don’t have any fraternity. No social bond, they are selfish. Like barbarian in a virgin forest. But this one is already corrupted. He learned how to beg for money. To lie, to please us. The others are bewildered. They don’t understand where they are. You said, they don’t understand. Imagine,
yourself over there. Subjected to a strange judgment. in the medium of priest with feather. could you understand? Understand that it was decided whether or not you are a man? Often the Spanish welcome them with the smile then stab their swords through their body. My God so often. He is indeed an acrobat? Yes Eminence. Which trick does he do? He is a juggler I believe. We need a break. Tell him that we are watching him. …Language… They are dexterous with their feet, like monkeys. The clowns arrived, Eminence. have them come in. I ask to come here,
some clowns from the court. It’s said that the faculty to laugh only belongs to the Human. We shall see then, If your Indians have sense of humour. Eminence, they are not in the mood to laugh. Laughter is spontaneous. An excellent idea. Have them come in. Give them some room, quickly. Make room to his majesty To the justice of the king. Bring the seat to his majesty. Quickly! Quickly! Bring the robber. What did you steal? Nothing majesty! You obviously stole something No! If no, you will not be a robber What did you steal? I beg your
majesty, I beg you, One moment. I struck him, I must confess. Mea culpa... For penitence. Eminence I beg you to stop this masquerade. For the respect of the sacraments. The clowns have all the rights Brother Bartolomé. But this is not a farce. We speak of these people who suffer and die. A real nation. What bothers you, it is that your Indians didn’t laugh. Their lips didn't move. But how can they laugh. A "robber" they don't understand this word. They don't know the confession. They did not learn from your teaching. They are unable to learn. They
are insensitive to our mystery's beauties. No! I've told you, no! They are sensitive like us. They know the love and fear. The most subtle emotions. But to see them, to really see them. We must look at them with other eyes. Or we will never see them as they are. Look at them like a mirror. in which to seek our own face. A face that you have forgotten. In this mirror, can you see yourself? At any moment. I said it yesterday. They have confused your spirit. But look at them for once. Forget your rhetoric and your
papers. And look at them! Look at them! With human eyes! Brother Bartolomé! Brother Bartolomé! Eminence! Who is on trial here? The murderer or the victim? Brother Bartolomé! They laughed, this time they laughed. I beg your pardon, Eminence. But this time, they laughed! Who saw them laugh? Who else? Yes I saw them, they laughed. They laughed, it is true. They laughed. It is true. Ask them if they laughed? ... language... They don't even understand the question. They understand very well. I know them. But they fear that we'll punish them for laughing. They are afraid of us.
We have lost their trust. We have frightened them. Send the clown away. That's enough! Go. Out, out! Our time is short now. I must take a decision this afternoon before going to Rome. Brother Bartolomé give us a summary in a few sentences. Do not go over the massacres. Human being like me I don't doubt this. They are my Indian brothers. And I see myself in them. I didn’t prepare any surprise. But when I see them. When I look at them. I hear the scream of spilt blood. All these questions on their lips. "Why are you
killing me? Why burn me and my temples and my books? Why butcher my children?" The answers is always: “They sacrifice men to their gods.” And it is true. Yes it is true ! But let’s look at our history. Abraham wanted to sacrifice his son to God ! And it is because he thought that God would appreciate his sacrifice. Our God, the true God. Didn’t always refuse a sacrifice of Human life? He even gave his son in sacrifice. The comparison is very excessive. Eminence the sacrifice gives to God the prove of our adoration. These people as
yet untouched by the true faith, under the natural law, offer to their false gods all they hold most precious... A Suspicious argument, it put in parallel a supposition and a declared fact. No sense! Professor, it is up to me to judge, do not intervene. To destroy their habits that we call barbarians. We were even more barbarians. How can they understand? We are telling them don’t kill your brother under any pretext. And then you kill them. If they are our brothers! Because if we believes Aristotle... The reign of Aristotle is dead. Aristotle is pagan who burns
in hell. Today we talk to the name of Christ. The word of Aristotle was a terrible error. Tyrannical! Infernal! All Christian philosophy condemns him. What do we read in each page of the Gospels? We are brothers. We should treat others as we would like to be treated. The Spaniard ran wild like wolves in a sheep pen. But Christ said the opposite. I send you like sheep to the wolves. Do you want to hear St Paul? really hear him? Listen to the apostle! There is no Jew, nor Greek. There is no slave, nor free man. There
is no male, nor female. All are one front the Christ Jesus. All one! It is in their hearts that we must break their idols. In their heart only. How can there be Christian and slaves? How? What would you propose Brother Bartolomé? I learned one thing. That the truth progresses by itself, fragile. Always attacked by thousands of enemies. Lies on the contrary have lots of help. We must give them back their rightfull liberty. Because they are free by nature. The Spanish must withdraw from the new lands. Otherwise Spain will be cursed. and struck down by God.
No! it is precisely the opposite! How so the opposite? We will admire Spain for having rid the earth of a sanguinary and cursed species. for having brought some to the true God. for having taught them what we know. and especially Our work will be acknowkledged for revealing the truth. Our meeting here, Our discussion, without precedent in the history of nations. can only bring glory to Spain! You truly believe that? Yes I believe it! I strongly believe it. The question is not to give up the Indies. We know well that it is a dream and that
we will stay there. The question here, is philosophycal. What should we do, and what can we do? As you said yourself, We must convert them, all Christians. "Compelle eos intrare" St Luke said. “Force them to enter!” Without this, no good in this life no salvation in the other. How to convert them? How long? At what price? This is the second part of the question, And on this point Brother Bartolomé we disagree. You say: "Christian and slaves; No, The two terms are mutually exclusive" and I say, why not? During some time, While waiting for a complete
conversion. Because this is the most important. You also say: "The wars which we lied are not just". And I say that a just war is one fought for justice. Which is the greater good? You speak through St Paul, I answer through St Augustine. “The loss of one single unbaptized soul” Said St Augustin, “is worst than the mortal death of countless victims, even innocent. The greatest good is the salvation of the soul“. That’s why we want to convert them, so hard. Otherwise their souls are lost. And nothing in this world is more precious than their souls.
You admit then that they have a soul. I desire to be well understood. I say. That they don't have a soul like ours, of the same quality, or even near it. And we don’t have any reason to treat them like us. But in the case I am mistaken, Which is possible, in case Aristotle is mistaken. If their soul is similar to ours. Then I say, a soul is creation's most precious pearl, that at any price we must save it. Which is better? A terrestrial life without glory, lived in error and sin, followed by an eternity
of suffering? Or a shorter life. Harder perhaps, and an early death. But followed by an eternity of light near to the true victorious God! is there anyone here, who doesn't know the right answer? Are you finished? Yes Eminence. Who still wishes to speak? Maybe you? No, I feel everything's been said. No one? May I say something? Certainly, come closer. I am not so good at speaking. I did not learn well. But what I have to say everyone should hear. We are listening. We came, my friend and I To talk about our settlement over there, about
our life! We have to work with them there's no choice. But they are dirty. Lazy, thieves, They don't have words. Why should they work to death for you? Brother Bartolomé you spoke enough, listen to others. You must know one thing. If we must pay them, treat them like Christians, take care of them. that will take money. A lot! Maybe it’s not the place to talk money but... Go ahead And this money, it will have to be withdrawn from the income of the crown and the Church. Impossible to do otherwise. This had to be said. In
what proportion? An enormous amount The whole system will have to be change. Spain and the church will have to send money there instead of receiving it. Sure, a lot of money! You, who know them well. Tell me. Do you think they have a soul? A soul, I don't know! What I do know is that they refuse to believe in the miracles of Christ. They would like me to do miracles! Since I can't. They don't have recognition for what we taught them. Taught what? The Torture! The syphilis! Brother Bartolomé! Once more. We didn’t teach them the
torture. They already knew. We gave them, tools, clothes, books. Before, they were slaves and we freed them. This freedom they are not used to. They abuse it, they run away, they hide to avoid work. They are weak and die of disease. If we have to pay them, better to give up the Indies. Both our business and saving their souls. This had to be said. You don't speak so badly. I speak bluntly Eminence. We are going to stop here. I will give my decision this afternoon. Yes, come in. Eminence, a letter from the King. You don't
read it? I already know what the king whishes to say to me. Others already told me. My decision is made. As I told you it will be confirmed by His Holiness and by the whole Church. The people of the new lands, which is called the Indies, are born from Adam and Eve, like us. They enjoy, like us, a spirit and an immortal soul. They have been redeemed by the blood of Christ. They are therefore our brothers. They must be treated with the greatest humanity and justice. Because they are human beings. This decision will be made
public and proclaimed through every Church of the old and new worlds. Eminence, forgive me. Of course I respect your choice. But did you really examine the repercussions of these words? Do you suspect me of lightness? Not at all ! But you must know that you condemn to bankruptcy all the Spanish establishments. Professor did I give the impression of not having thought about it? Certainly not. Do you believe that I didn’t weigh my responsibility? that I Have not prayed through these nights? Do you believe that I don’t realize all the consequences, that nothing will be the
same? Do you believe for a second that God would abandon me now, at this moment to choose among these creatures. No Eminence. We would make, however a great mistake, by thinking that the Church, can ignore the legitimate interests of its members. We are in fact very aware of what a serious blow this could be for colonization. There is perhaps a solution, that I would like to remind you of. If it is Clear that the Indians are our brothers in the name of Jesus Christ endowed with a reasonable souls like ours, on the other hand it
is also certain that inhabitants of Africa are much closer to animals. These inhabitants are black, very crude. Ignorant of art and writing. They build…, some huts. All their activity is physical, it is certain. And since the Roman Empire, they' ve been subdued and domesticated. Some Africans have already made the crossing? Yes, Eminence since the beginning. They adapt quickly to the climate. They are even rather resistant. Who sends them? Portuguese, they capture them and sell them very expensive! I can obviously only suggest this but... Why not gather them up yourself in sufficient quantity? you'd be sure
to have a robust labor and even less expensive. I suppose that in Africa they are easy to find. Their King sells them. The Church would not oppose this? Why would it? Does the King oppose it? Eminence that is likely to become a big business and be out of control. leading to wars, revolts! Listening to you Brother Bartolomé, nothing can be worse than what we do already. Yourself, If I recall you had a black slave? For a short time And I never treated him as a slave. You were satisfied with his service? Very satisfied. Did you
not say yourself, if I remember well, that it was a very good solution and you recommended it? I said it, yes in my youth to save the Indians. But Eminence I changed, everyone changes. Today I am ashamed of my words. And I say on the contrary... All right! All right! ... that African are human beings like us, son of Adam. and it would be a mortal sin. We will not start again. We are not here for that. All right! We will add a codicil You will prepare a drafting. In the name of His Holiness I
thank you for your help. Grace to God for being with us until the last moment. In nomine patris et Filii et spiritus sancti. Amen. In the ensuing years after the Valladolid controversy, Sepúlveda continued to be the defender of the slavery while Las Casas established himself as the outstanding defender of the Indians. In so doing, both of them significantly expanded on their arguments. Not surprisingly, the controversy failed to materialize into palpable benefits for the Indians. (Subtitles made by Jean-Marc Fontaine, 2008)
