in the past few weeks the incoming president has referred to Canada as the 51st state and and uh threatened a 25% blanket tariffs I I know you're familiar with this on all Canadian Imports he also just a few days ago called our prime minister uh the governor of the great state of Canada should we be interpreting that as a joke or something more in your view well I think as the saying goes uh Trump is kidding on the straight uh if asked he'd say of course it's a joke and you know Justin and I have
a very good Rel relationship but I I think it's an indication of what he thinks of Trudeau and uh you know it's it's mean it's sort of a playground kind of thing but that's Donald Trump you wrote in your book uh the room where it happened I remember reading a few years ago some sort of some descriptions of uh meetings that they had had in particular at the G7 and the view of Donald Trump toward the Prime Minister what was it like at that time do you think it was personal animosity or it was more
just about the issues and the sort of disagreement over tariffs for example at the time no Trump trump doesn't care about issues he cares about Donald Trump and uh where I first saw the relationship in operation was at the G7 in Canada in 2018 where uh the the uh the the other members of the G7 basically forced Trump into some statements in the outcome document that he didn't particularly like I'd have to say I didn't like them either U but anyway anyway it was agreed Trump got on a plane uh Air Force One because we
were headed to Singapore for his first meeting with Kim jung-un and uh as we were flying over the Atlantic I was sleeping but uh uh Trump was up because he had heard that the Prime Minister Trudeau had in his view insulted him in the last press conference at the close of the G7 and Trump uh after he woke me up and some others decided he was going to withdraw from the outcome document which is unprecedented to say the least but he was so outraged at what the at that Trudeau press conference that that that's what
he did so my my my take on the relationship is that I don't know what it was before I uh I I saw it in action at the G7 but afterward it was it was in deep trouble is there a way to navigate that or recover from that this second time around uh and I asked not just sort of out of this like gossipy you know how do people get along but because where this threat that he has made would be devastating to the Canadian economy it would instantly put it into a a recession so
against that backdrop I guess if you know if if the federal government here were to ask you for advice on how to navigate this moving forward what would you tell them uh well it's not Pleasant news but uh but the thing to do is flatter Trump and uh and try and work on him that way I I think the the foreign leader who was most successful at dealing with Trump in his first term with Shinzo Abbe H didn't really uh lather on the the flattery but he spent time with Trump constantly on the phone in
person on the golf course uh uh Never Letting much time go by between conversations just making sure they were in touch telling what Japan's interests were so that it didn't come to a point where there was a crisis and and he needed something from trump it wasn't always successful for a it certainly took a lot of his time but as I say I think it I think it worked more than any other approach that that I saw during my time there if that were to be employed here and it seems I should say there are
some indications for example the Prime Minister flew down to maral Lago to have a meeting with uh with the incoming president a few weeks ago on a Frid the Friday evening of uh the Thanksgiving the americ Thanksgiving long weekend like I If that is pursued do you think that that relationship you witnessed uh could turn into a different one like essentially I mean your book talked a lot about this too like Trump doesn't really like to forgive and forget but is that possible in this instance do you think well it's always possible if somebody kisses
the ring I mean that's that's what Trump likes it's not positions on tariffs that's not the issue and you know I have to say for the current government or or subsequent governments uh Trump for Num for Trump numbers kind of come and go 25% 5% 80% who who knows what it'll be that that's designed to throw people off their stride uh I think I think it's important uh to to maintain contact with all levels uh in the Trump Administration as it's put together uh I I think a trade war between the US and Canada and
Mexico would be a catastrophically bad decision uh on Trump's part but he doesn't understand how tariffs work he thinks the the exporting company pays the Tariff he doesn't realize it's the American importer that pays it and then passes the cost on to American consumers so good good luck with trying to educate him on that you really think even after all these years that he still thinks that that's the case I can point to you the NBC evidence with Kristen Welker a few days ago where she said you know people people think that American consumers end
up paying the cost of increased tariffs and Trump said quote I don't agree yeah I remember it well she said economists from all different uh angles say that that's the case and you're absolutely right he said I don't agree uh just wanted to get you also Ambassador on another issue that that certainly you've been vocal on in and uh and we're very interested in here in Canada that's the sort of presid obervation of NATO moving forward because in that same interview he did very specifically say something to be fair that he said before which is
basically the prospect of leaving the military Alliance is there if quote unquote member states don't pay up uh as it stands Canada is one of those member states who has not met the NATO Target it just this summer our federal government outlined a plan to well well sort of the broad Strokes of a plan to get there by 2032 do you think Canada is in trouble when it comes to defense spending with Trump in the presidency well I think he'll beat whoever Prime is prime minister over the head with it constantly uh the fact is
the United States has to defend Canada because we're all around you and uh if the Russian missiles ever come over the pole uh that that's uh that that's something that's obviously critical to both of us uh you should get defense spending up to 2% of GDP I mean it's really it's it's that simple but that's not enough to satisfy Trump that's the ostensible point but in other conversations on NATO he's talked about how foreign governments particularly the European Union have negotiated unfair trade deals with the United States he has a lot of gripes and uh
the the the actual withdrawal from NATO could be precipitated by what happens in Ukraine or or any number of other events uh and basically it's because Trump thinks we defend Europe and Canada uh we don't get anything out of it and they don't pay so why are we in NATO that that's what he thinks and uh I the best hope I think of avoiding American withdrawal is to distract him for the next four years do you think NATO's in trouble I do I really do I think our other bilateral alliances with countries like Japan and
South Korea are are also in trouble okay I got to leave it on that note Ambassador Bolton uh pleasure to have you on our program thank you for making the time thanks for having me
