Transform Pain & Trauma Into Creative Expression | David Choe

I'm a severe gambling addict. Every single addiction is gambling addiction. If you drink and drive, you're gambling. Addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to. People, what are you running from, Dave? It's like, well, I'ming running from myself, dude. I don't want to look in the mirror. I don't want to see myself. I I hate myself. So, I'm just running. So, as long as I'm like doing graffiti, running From the police, you know, just just just hopping on a train like like literal running like literally running to make sure I'm never sit

still for one second like what are you doing Dave? I'm playing drums in a band. I'm you know at a casino. I'm traveling doing the news for Vice. I'm painting at this like I I can't I can't sit still because that means I have to sit with myself and I I can't do that. I can't do that. [clears throat] I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. I can now. Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast where we discuss science [music] and science-based tools for everyday life. [music] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology

and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is David Cho. David Cho is an artist. He's a highly accomplished Painter, graffiti, and street artist, writer, podcaster, and television host. Many of you are perhaps familiar with David as the guy who famously painted the original Facebook offices, took equity for the job, and got rich. Now, that's a wild story, but David's whole life journey, what he did prior to and after that, and what he has overcome along the way, is a million times wilder. As he shares today, David grew up hearing and thinking that

he was Destined for greatness, but also hearing and thinking that he was a total disgrace. Today, he talks with complete openness and vulnerability about addiction, about cycles of success and failure, and about channeling and overcoming deep shame. Today's podcast is unlike any other that I've hosted. David is wide open about his childhood abuse, his massive success, then career setbacks, relapses, and transmuting every possible emotion into art along The way. So, no matter who you are, David's story, and just as importantly, how he's living right now, how he shows up on this podcast will change what

you think is possible for you in life. It will force you to look inward and to use whatever joy and pain you have inside of you to be the best human being you can possibly be. David Cho is, as we say in science, an N of one, meaning there is no other like him. Yes, because of his incredible art, but also for his Willingness to share so openly and honestly so that others can benefit and grow. I consider it a true honor and privilege to host David on this podcast, and frankly, it's impossible not to

love him. This one is incredibly raw and honest. It's also full of surprises, many of which are fun surprises. So, buckle up. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my Desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with David Cho. David Cho, welcome. >> Thank you for having me, man. >> Man, huge

longtime fan. >> Love your art. I've been super inspired by your YouTube channel. I watch it sometimes before I do my drawing or I Prepare for a podcast. >> What are you drawing? >> Uh, I draw a lot of anatomy on top of some paintings. So, I do neuroanatomy on top of some paintings that my friend Tim Armstrong's been doing. >> Musician lead. >> Is it anatomically correct or is it like exaggerated or is it >> This is a really good question. So, >> in essence, it's anatomically correct. >> Yeah. But around the turn of

the last Century, two guys, Kahal and Golgi, won the Nobel Prize. >> Yeah. >> For drawing the nervous system and showing these things no one had seen before. And they stripped away everything except >> I'm going to paint. >> I'm going to complain with you. >> Yeah. >> I don't like what's happening in your painting studio. >> Okay. >> I'm I'm just from what you said so far, it's >> it's not good. >> Okay. >> But it's it's good because you did that and then now we have to we have to strip that away. We

have to get at the core of it because painting is um Wait, weren't you in the middle of complimenting me? Like, keep going. >> I mean, I I I love your YouTube channel. I watch it before I prepare podcast and before I uh paint or draw and I'm back to drawing a lot now, and I live I converted an art gallery into a living space. And somehow I thought that that would make me uh more inspired, but it turns out um it does. [laughter] Um, a lot of things do, but I think the key with

anatomy and trying to teach science with drawings is can't be too much detail, can't be too little detail. Otherwise, people are overwhelmed. >> It's the best thing for I think everyone, but for someone like you who spends a lot of time in your head. I always say the longest journey you'll ever take in your life is from your head to your heart. And to be uh an intellectual person, you you just live a lot a lot. you like you try to rationalize and apply logic to everything. So painting is not that, music is not that,

creating is not that. It's just to get to this and so for for But it sounds just in the little that you've explained that your painting is very methodical and which >> super meticulous. I want to include every cell type. Yeah. >> What's your threshold for positive affirmations? Can I go now? Like you >> I mean I like to think I have a thick skin, but >> All right, let's go. Who knows? >> No, it's it's all it's all love. Okay. Um, for anyone who's watching or Listening, this is my first time meeting Adam. >>

Andrew. >> All good. [laughter] >> Yeah. All good. All good. You knew my last name. >> You know what? I was thinking about my friend Adam. >> All good. >> That you know that used to skate with. I think Adam Cone. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's I was just thinking like Yeah. Upper Playground. >> Yeah. He worked he his dad owns Cone Shoes >> in Palto. He wants to reconnect with you, >> man. Adam Cron and I grew up together. >> He had a mini ramp in his backyard. We hung out. We skateboarded. And then

he started Upper Playground, the Walrus. >> That's that's that's it, right? >> He's your homie. >> I used to work for I did tons of giraffics for Upper Playground. So >> Wow. >> Does anyone call you Andy? >> Uh my skateboard friends call me Andy. So yeah, >> but that's it. Like no one in the medical like science. >> Uh not anymore. No, not really. >> That would have like you you start your podcast and you do your like I'm Andrew. Yep. Like I'm going to be all over the Place because I'm nervous being here

right now. I hardly do podcasts anymore. So, um I'm I'm going to be all over the place if that it's going to be me. It's going to be sloppy. >> This is your canvas, man. Have fun. >> Well, I'm just meeting you. I already called you the wrong name, which is horrible. Um I hate the black. I hate it. Like >> the studio. this you with the black t-shirt, the black mugs, the black like I don't like it for you, you know, cuz I used to I used to only wear black because I was like,

ah, I'm a painter. I'm always dirty. I don't want to like, you know, you could see the ketchup stains on my sweater. And it's like, okay, that's that's fine. But I just um colors are very important in not just painting but like the palette for your house or you know like um most people talk about In the modern age modern man is you know and I and I I just make [ __ ] up so you could correct you're like the facts guy but I I feel like most people human beings alive today are going

to die a very uh it's mean to say boring but just the same death, right? You'll most likely die laying down in a bed or hospice or in a hospital bed, you know? It's just like no one's dying like I know there's other countries where there's war and Famine, but I'm saying modern cities, you know, like there's not like a hero's death, right? So, it's just it's all the same. And then you just, you know, the drive here in traffic, it's like everyone either has a black car or a white car or a gray car.

And then you get to their house and their house is a beige or a white and you're just like, "We only got one of these." You know, whatever your views on the afterlife are, but this is it. This is it. Like This is it. And it's just like people get mad of like, "Oh, I spilled paint on the floor. Like I got to scratch." I'm like, "Paint everything. Paint your [ __ ] car. Paint Make your My My kids drew my sweater. It's my favorite, you know, like >> I like that sweater >> you know.

So I walk in here and I go, "Fuck, dude." Like, and I'm projecting on you now. Like when I wore all black, it said a lot about where I was at in my Life. And I don't know where you're at because I'm just meeting you, but it's like everything is black on black. Like black on this, black t-shirt, black mug, black, and it's like white t-shirt. for my dream my my uh selfishly my dream is like this podcast would start instead of saying hey I'm Andrew Huberman like Stanford scientist that it's just hi I'm Andy

and then like you can you photoshop like a white t-shirt on >> I'd wear a white t-shirt >> I don't know I don't like black for me I I have hardly ever black clothes anymore I I want to add as much color because I I just uh maybe that's the season I am in my for the the time I'm in. But um yeah, I I appreciate you saying the nice stuff. I I never thought I would be a YouTuber, but that's providing a lot of joy in my life. And so I want to say to

you, um I'm meeting you for the first time. I've never seen you clean shaven, >> but I imagine I mean your beard and Facial hair to me look very cute. You're very handsome. your voice when I hear your voice immediately is soothing and I feel like this is a very kind person like I once again without having like now I've met you for like 5 minutes I'm like oh this guy's super awesome but you know like these kind of parasocial relationships where I could go even I don't know how hard you want to go today

but like it's like I meet people all the time and then I Meet them and it's like I've already met you like we've already talked. I don't know what your views on telepathy and spirituality and it's like >> it's just everyone will meet everything's going to happen the way it's going to happen and everyone's going to meet who they need to meet. It's like all energy, right? You put this like what you know I could sit there and go why does Andrew Hubin want to meet me right now? And it's like well What am I

putting out in the universe and what is he putting out in the universe and are do the souls connect in that way? you know, so I just want I said if I ever meet him, I just want to tell him how cute he is, how soothing and relaxing and like there's something very um this is the invisible ingredient in like everything in art is did the person care, right? Like I don't care how skilled and crafted whatever like did the person care and like when you do Stuff in your voice the tone the frequency that's

hitting my my soul is like oh I don't know everything that guyy's saying he's using some big words but I feel like he cares and so I I said if I ever meet you and um I I know a little bit from us talking on the phone but I don't know your whole backstory but I'm like also I I project a lot and I I make a lot of assumptions which I'm that's a defect that I'm working on. But I just Wanted to say like even though you had a horrific traumatic childhood, like the fact

that you're here, you're alive, and that you're doing all this good stuff, it like it makes me emotional cuz I'm like I I don't even know you, and I appreciate what you're doing, and uh you're still a little bit immature, but progress, not perfection, right? So, um I think that's it for now, but I just wanted to tell you all that because I I feel that way about you and I I you Know, I like I I'm a big sometimes you feel stuff and you're like I'll text it to them or or maybe you know

and I just go no if I feel that I just want to especially if it's love and positivity. I know I started by telling you how much I hate your decor and your interior decorating but it's because I like you. Like I wouldn't if I didn't if I like if I'm like I don't give a [ __ ] about this guy and I don't want a relationship with I would never say anything. But I'm like This I don't know what the science behind it but being surrounded by this much black cannot be good, right? It

can't like just you walk you we're walking into a black hole right now like I don't know. Anyways, that's that's what I wanted to say. >> Oh [snorts and clears throat] man. Well, I'll take that in. Thank [laughter] you. Uh lot there. Thank you. >> Were you able to take it in? Yeah, I was able to take in some of that. I uh it's Interesting when you call me Andy, it's it's a different part of my persona >> just because that names carry a lot and >> thank you for that. I'm going to take that

in. And um >> you know the I got this little voice in my head that's saying uh want to be very clear. You know, my I had some rough >> rough aspects in my childhood. I've made good amends with my parents, so we're good now. I say that to uh you know uh for all the the reasons people can Assume. But here's the thing. I knew somehow that we'd eventually cross paths. I just didn't know when. >> Uh so you say the telepathy thing for me, I was a posttock at Stanford. That comes after PhD.

You do like 5 years. It's kind of like a residency and uh and I'm from the South Bay. >> Mhm. >> And I didn't want to go back to the South Bay because as you know, no disrespect to the South Bay. A lot of Interesting things come out of there, but it was pretty devoid of the things that I like. Yeah. Which normally are in cities like art, live music. It used to be like that. Grateful Dead were in Palo Alto. I saw Fugazi play at the at the edge on California Avenue. There was a

lot of interesting things about Palto, but it became very uh right angles uh when the tech industry really exploded there. And in 2007 when I was a posttock >> Mhm. >> was when you were muraling at Facebook. I learned that later. >> Yeah. >> But that was a time when I was back there for my science career and I was pretty miserable >> being close to home again. Honestly, I didn't want to ever go back there for a while. It was not healing. It was uh But when I learned your story >> about muraling at

Facebook and some of that, I was like, "Oh, there was at Least one other >> person here who was like in the in the kind of uh spiritual emotional fight with what the South Bay is." And then I realized that I heard an interview with Ian Mai from Myer Threat >> and turns out he had been in Palo Alto because his dad was an academic or something like that >> of course >> and he had skated some of the same ditches we had. And so there's a history Of >> people being really frustrated with being

there. >> Um >> really good Vietnamese food >> and is there really? >> Yeah. >> Oh the South Bay. >> Yeah. South Bay. >> Oh yeah. Castro Street Mountain View. Yeah. And it's changed a lot. But >> uh take me back to 2007. I don't know How you feel about historical stuff. We're definitely I'm definitely down to time travel and time jump and all that, but because >> my I'm older. I'm 49 and my attention span is just completely fried. >> I'm going to I'll just say right now I'm going to get a lot of

dates wrong. Like I'm not like two, you know, things people are like that, you know, like >> 2007 was when the Facebook offices were what kids from the South Bay call the The neck of University Avenue right before it goes under the train tracks. As soon as you're on the other side of the train tracks, Cal Train, >> it becomes Palm Drive and it's up to Stanford. And so those offices now are Palunteer. >> Yeah. >> Which catches a lot of heat for other reasons, but those offices right as you go under the train tracks

for us >> there was a curb cut right there and There was a board slide thing. And so for the skateboarders, it was one thing, but then that was Facebook offices. >> And years later, I heard David Cho was muring at Facebook. So how did that come to I'm going to I'm going to be uh like very sloppy like I said and it's maybe some of the stuff cuz sometimes um it's the way I treat talking in journalism and podcast is like it's like a story in my own head. Someone else is like just shut

the [ __ ] Up and answer the question, right? But like for me when I paint I I don't sketch. I go straight to finish and I So sometimes I'm figuring out what I'm trying to tell you cuz you ask me a question that's very direct, but I the way it went into my head was very abstract cuz I'm So um if you let me do a little paint mixing, I I I hope I'll answer your question. But do you um do you know Peewee Pew? Like I'm wearing it today. Do you know uh Peewee's

Playhouse? >> I knew Oh, yeah. I mean Yeah. I met him actually once. >> Paul Ruben. >> Yeah. at a at a photo show of Mike Mueller and Sage who draws butterflies on Mike Mueller's sharks and animals. Oh. >> And Peeweee Herman in his thing in his suit, the whole thing walked up. Lared Hamilton was there. >> Nice. >> And he walks up to Lar Hamilton. There are a bunch of people around. Everyone's trying to get to Larried to Lar. Lar's like a This was 2017 >> and uh was in West Hollywood. >> And Peeweee

Herman walks up and he goes, "I have to meet you." And Lar's like, and the best thing is Lar just goes, "Oh, hello. What's your name?" Like typical Larard. Like Lar's a real gentleman always, you know, and uh >> he didn't know who Kiwi Her I couldn't Tell if he knew or not. And he's like, "I really wanted to meet you." This kind of thing. And uh and I was like, "No way." And he had the whole thing like the the shiny lips and the the thing. And I was like, >> "That's Peewee Herman." >>

Oh, that's amazing. I love that. All right. Well, I mean, I'm definitely going to have to tell you my Peewee Herman story at some point. I'd like to take a quick break and Acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep. Eight makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct. And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about 1 to

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episode is also brought to us by Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper Hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it very easy to ensure

that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate Electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right into exercise. So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an element packet dissolved in it. I also drink Element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing, especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and Electrolytes. Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors.

In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So, if you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com/huberman to claim a free sample pack. >> For me, art as a kid growing up, like The trifecta, my holy trinity of children's education, art, entertainment is Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and then of course Peewee Herman. I mean, Peewee Herman had Lawrence Fishburn, uh, Gary Panter, Mark Mothersba, like Danny Elfman. Like, he

just he was like the ring leader of all this creativity. And he had like Mecca, Mecca Ho. And do you remember the do you remember the secret word? >> The secret word was like, if anyone's Our age that's watching people's playoffs, it was like >> Today's secret word is I don't know what's our secret word today, Rob. >> Microphone. >> Microphone. And if if someone says microphone, scream real loud. So, can we do that today? >> Sure. >> All right. I'm counting on you. I want you to scream the loudest. >> Um, and you don't

take a pee until we take a pee. We got a agreement on that. Okay. >> All right. Um, I hated the South Bay. I I hate like I just I'm um I have all the um typical art artist traits. I'm clinically depressed. I'm bipolar. Uh I have all the process addictions, food, sex, gambling, shopping, workcoholism. Like I don't have Thank God I don't have any of the chemical addictions cuz I'm allergic to everything. But um severe OCD, severe antisocial traits um you know I I just highly sensitive you know so I I just coming here

today like you asked me and I kept text like I don't know we did this like dance for a few months and I uh if I'm just being honest with you like I I don't I don't know how to not be me, You know, and sometimes like I put a mask on and I I I'm like, I think this is what Andrew wants me to be today, but I, you know, I didn't even meet you yet. And so every time I've done Joe Rogan or any other podcast, like um I don't know, I just feel

comfortable doing my own YouTube or my own podcast, but anytime anyone else asks me, it's such a I know who I am and sometimes I don't and sometimes I figure that out. And it's sometimes you meet people on the street at pavilions or at the supermarket and they're like I and it's like this parasocial thing where it's like I know you, I relate to you, I and there's something about that where you know the intimacy of meeting another human being and then just showing them your heart and then telling them everything. And my parents aren't

going to listen to this. my brothers don't listen to like so in a weird way like You're going to know more about me today than my own family so the parasocial thing is even it's real right like placebo effect is real like all these things so I you know I got here early I went for a walk down the to those that street and then it's like just this beautiful view of the ocean and I I it it happens every time it's like it it it. I know what it makes me sound like. It's like,

"Oh, this guy's like Very unstable and unhinged." And I'm I'd be the first to admit it. It's like I cry all the time now. [laughter] Like I don't know what it it was just like maybe just seeing all the burned houses on the way here, just knowing that I haven't talked in a long time and there's no upside for me. And I told you that I was like I go on these podcasts and I think um uh Howard Stern like 15 20 years ago and Joe Rogan the multip multiple times I've Been on a show

I think are the only two p radio shows podcasts that have ever just aired it without editing. everyone else. Every time you've ever heard me on any other podcast, it's either severely edited or they cut out huge chunks of it or they didn't even air it at all. So, I know that, you know, and I know the world we live in today. And so, there's something that went, you know, in the the narcissistic traits where like I'm the [ __ ] Greatest artist in the world to like, oh my god, I'm a piece of [

__ ] Like, it just, you know, it's just like this thing. And before when I was younger, it was like everyone has to see everything. Everyone has like I think I'm so important that everyone has to see everything that I create. Painting, podcast, book, like whatever it is. And then it went like my problem with my [ __ ] is it's all or nothing. So it's hard for me to find the middle. And so at this point now I'm like 49. I I live a very quiet dad life. You know, I'm a family guy. And

there's just thousands of paintings no one's ever seen. There's hundreds of hours, if not thousands of hours of podcasts I've never put out. There's books I've written. There's TV shows, movies that I've made that it's just I don't before the ego and the narcissist like you need to put this out because you're important and everyone needs to see how important You are. And now the flip side to that is and maybe maybe it's not healthy either is like I know who I am. I'm comfortable with myself and I don't I don't need you know I'm

artificially blocked from everything like I I'm I don't have my own password to my social media. I don't I have blocks on my phone so I can't access the internet. So it's like I do put all these things into place to like protect myself because I'm a sensitive person. So, um, you know, as An artist, there's certain isms and and stories. It's like, oh, starving artist, you're not going to make any money. Like, struggling artist, there's these stories that people say and then you buy into them. Um, but I had um I had a few

teachers along the way that um influenced me that like you know there's like just certain moments happen in your life that live in your your head Rentree. And uh I have a lot of those. And so one of the stories is you know I'm 49. It's like you have to live in New York City. If you make it in New York you make it anywhere. What the [ __ ] am I doing in the 408? Like this is what am I doing in certain like like in my head the story's written that you're a [

__ ] you know and I hadn't done [ __ ] right but in my head I'm like you're a greatest artist ever in Gilroy you know like what you know what I mean >> sorry no disrespect to Gilroy >> like the garlic capital of garlic fest garlic ice Ice cream you know so >> there's a story in my head that's like I got to get to New York City right like I gotta like >> I [snorts] couldn't I couldn't get any like leeway in Los Angeles. I'm born and raised in LA and I just I

couldn't, you know, and um and so I I and now I look back if I do a Inventory of the most creative explosions and the most periods of creativity in my life, it's always found in the mundane. It's always found in cold temperatures. It's always found when there's no Wi-Fi. It's always f found in a suburb of it's it's like this story like and when I get to [ __ ] New York and I'm going to be part of this move. It's never that like it's nice to romanticize that but it's these moments of brilliance

like someone whoever's Listening right now they're like I got this and then I'm there's like a and then I'm going to get to this and then I'm going to meet this person and I'm going to do and it's like bro I was [ __ ] living in San Jose for seven years. I met this wonderful lady. She was my girlfriend for 7 years. But like at that prime I was 23 and I was like and um for me the stakes are so high because I so one of the teachers was my mother Right my mother

is hardcore born again Christian. So science does not enter the picture, right? It's like blinders on and through her I learned blind faith, right? Jesus Christ. That's it. There's no there's no So wait, you're telling me there was an actual ark with two animals and all the the two animals didn't kill the other and like you know and there was an atom and there was a snake that talked and like yeah like no hesitation. So she Gave me that gift of like like hey science like facts no blind like just holy [ __ ] like

there nothing could fault her and you're like you're [ __ ] stupid you're ignorant like and she's but she's not she's a bright woman and now I look back and like I just met you you're a brilliant guy and I and I sit here and I go I know some of the smartest people on the planet. You know some of the smartest people on the planet and they're all dumb. They're all Like idiots. You're like, "Wait, you're a genius. You have photographic memory. You created this company and you made some of the dumbest decisions I've

ever seen or you don't know." [snorts] So, so my mom taught me through just not anything but just watching her of just this absolute belief and and one of her beliefs was you're my son. You know, this is some Jesus [ __ ] like me who was like how I Explained this is [ __ ] neurotic mess like growing up in an unstable family and all that. Got [ __ ] molested phys every abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, like just chaotic cuz they were working and then I was just like left out in the wild,

abandoned, spiritual abuse, all this [ __ ] And she's just like, in the same way she believed in God and Jesus, she's like, "You're the one. You're the greatest artist." And I'm like 5 years Old. I'm like, "What the [ __ ] are you talking about?" She's like, "No one's better than you. No one's better than you. You're the be You're going to be the great, you know, your name's David." Like a lot of Koreans named after Bible. She's like, "I named you after King David. You're going to be a king." And I go, "But

now in hindsight, I'm like, and yes, King David beat Goliath, but he also was a sex addict and had a lot of mental illness and like failed a lot, You know. She didn't tell me all that [ __ ] you know." Um, so she's she's raising me. She's brainwashing me. It's like, "You're the best. You're the greatest." And then you, you know, I've met other artists where it's like everyone had this has their own paths. Some become great because the parents are like, "You're nothing. You're a piece of [ __ ] You're the worst. You

know, who the [ __ ] do you think you are?" I had the opposite. I had a mom Just it didn't matter. It didn't matter like, "But mom, look at how horrible." It's like, "You're the greatest." And so it's like at some point I I hate myself. I have like a so such a low self- opinion of myself. I'm I'm just down on myself. Just this kid just constantly getting bullied and like the world just using me. And [sighs] um and I [snorts] and I'm like, "Of course she says that. She's my mom, you know,

like, but she Just brainwashed me into believing that I'm the best. And I I would, as a as a trickster and a shape shifter, I would, you know, what most artists lack is like an ability to communicate with words. That's why they're such brilliant artists and that's why they they can make great music and all this because they can't I can't, you know, like I'm gonna probably talk to you for you few hours today and I'm gonna leave here feeling misunderstood. I'm gonna be Like, "Fuck, did I?" because I'm not in the same way I

can like translate what I feel in a painting. It's very like it's like when people describe like Iawaska or something. They're like try to describe it and they're like the words that you're trying to look for don't exist for what you just went through. So that's kind of the why why I get really self-judgmental, but I'm like this woman and then you know my dad he loves me but he's like he's all right, he's okay, you Know. And I'd watched my mom who was just like a brutal businesswoman, you know, and um she would transform,

you know, we we we we you know, I I spent most of my life either poor or middle class, you know, like being wealthy came later. But so, you know, we were on welfare a lot, our businesses burned down in the LA Riots. Like I saw my parents struggle a lot, you know, but then they would do good and they had the gamblers mentality, which a lot of Asians do. And I I have that too, >> which is >> just I don't know if this is true, but I heard that uh Asians have the gambling

gene more than other races, especially the women. Like most women don't have the gambling gene the same way men do. So my mom would gamble like flipping houses or like not in a casino but like just huge like huge swings which you're like I grew up in with a a fearless woman you Know >> but so we wouldn't have stuff but then I would watch my mom open the trunk of her car and put on like fake jewelry cubic zirconium cuz she's about to go into a meeting and ask for a lot of money and

just just insane lying saying and but hardcore Christian. So like the hypocrisy there like I'm definitely I'm trying to work on my own breaking out. So it's like I'm going to be hypocritical in this interview and at The end hopefully I'll be able to correct any exaggerations or lies. But that's a new tool that I have. I used to just you know whatever for the story you know I lie to tell the truth you know all those things. Um so I would watch my mom transform from like a poor woman. The mentality was she's like

my my son is the greatest artist in the world and like I'm you know I'm coming out of my Toyota hatchback with the broken window you know but I when I go into this Meeting right now you're not going to see that. So she transformed herself into this rich powerful woman and just like get like I'm I'm just sitting there a kid in the corner watching this woman get what she wants. I'm like holy [ __ ] what the [ __ ] was that performance? And then just coming out and I'm like, "But mom, that's

not like those things you said. That wasn't real. That's not true." And she's like, "Yeah, they don't need to know that." And I'm like, "But We just went to church and we learned the Ten Commandments and you're not supposed to lie." And it's like all this like confusion. [snorts] And then I meet uh Sean Parker who uh you know just the sweetest kid you know just he started emailing me right when he started Napster. He goes, "I wish I have all the emails. I keep I keep certain emails and Voice messages and I just I

just that's my own nostalgia, but like I have a I have a voicemail and a handwritten letter from Howard Stern saying, "Thank you for getting me into watercolors." And I was like, "Dude, my [ __ ] hero." Like, "Yes." Like, it's such a good feeling. Um, I have a voice message from Peewee Herman, which I'll share later. And all my early emails with Sean Parker I kept just cuz it was he's such an interesting like wonderful I know like The image of him but like I I we don't talk like as like we used to

but I still consider him a friend and I'm over forever grateful to him. So he I met him at a time when like I mean I don't even know how to des I mean like just complete disgrace and shame to my family. You know it's like the immigrant story. Talk to any immigrant. Why the [ __ ] did you leave your home to come to another country? Because it was shitty There. That's it. You're not born in a country and you're like, "Dude, let's leave." Right? The only reason why anyone's here is because it was

shitty where you were at, right? So then they all, it doesn't matter if you're Asian or Mexican, whatever. You came here for a better life. And what does that mean? Work your ass off. So we we're in a nation of workaholics, right? This is an entire country of workaholics. So my parents, you know, I didn't go through It, but they're like Japanese tanks rolled down the street and you know, they have the typical like [ __ ] war, famine, all that stuff. So they get over here and like born and raised in Los Angeles, you

know, it's like don't know who I am, don't know where I belong, just bullied, abandoned, abused over and over and just I didn't even really know the concept of suicide, but I hated myself. Like I I couldn't live in my like it felt like I Was burning inside my own body. And so, um, even made fun of like, like I listen to, we we have the same taste of music. I listen to Minutemen, Minor Threat, you know, I'm blasting, uh, Downset, Inside Out, Sound Garden, Slaves and Bull. I used to put on Sound Garden, Slaves

and Bulldozers, punch myself as like just like I'm in my room, a teenager, just punching myself as hard as I can just to like go into like a berserker rage. Um, and I and I Just back then the like I found pornography and it was just so soothing. Like it was like getting high. Like I would just masturbate like over and over again. So I'm I'm like master but I I would do like weird self harm. I guess the kids call it edging, but like I'd masturbate but then not come and then beat myself up.

and I'm going through puberty and I would go out and I'd shoplift uh spray cans like just at you know hardware stores and I'm listening To uh you know I would get like a faith no more like in living colors just like some some song and I would just like an OCD just repeat like some lyric in it. I am a patient boy and I would just like go into like a trance and I would just go out and I would just [ __ ] spray paint and I'm living at home so I'm not hiding

this [ __ ] I come home, my hands covered in black paint. TH THIS IS WHAT WE [ __ ] came to this country for. This is what why we we [ __ ] left another country so you could come here and not be an artist but do graff like you're a disgrace. You're a disgrace to our race. You're you know, and my dad would just like [ __ ] throw me against the wall. And I'm like, I don't care, dude. I don't care what you're like, do you understand? Like I wasn't like actively trying

to kill myself, but I didn't. Like, do you understand that everything you care about I don't care. Do you get that? And Like, you know, you start the show and I I I was laughing cuz it's like, hey, I'm Andrew Hub Huberman, scientist Stanford, this and I'm like, I don't care. Like, I I like I like Andy. Like, I like that, you know? And then I was like, you know what? This is like a stolen valor. Um Sean Parker starting Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg. You know, I'm there at the beginning and uh so he brings

me in and at the time when I first this is years the emails back and forth. He's like, "I Need cuz the energy I was putting out at the time was what I'm telling you right now. Just I don't give a [ __ ] I don't care what you care about. Like I don't like it's just complete. I don't care if I go to jail. I don't care. Like, I'm just painting on everything. And it's like graffiti. Graffiti is vandal. It's not an art. It's not graffiti artist or street art. It's [ __ ] vandalism.

It's a crime. And people are telling me anyone out there doing street art. Like, There's so many rules. There's so many like What did you write? Did you used to tag or anything? >> No, but from uh >> if you skated, you definitely had like a >> There were some kids in our crew that >> cubes. No. >> What did you tag? Come on. >> No, cuz I had friends who were like graphers and they were they like boxed us out, you know, the the Under Shadows kids. >> You never did graffiti? >> No, but

we can talk about this later. I want to I want to hear from you now, but later we should talk about Orphan and the Under Shadows crew, which is a which is a kind of a thing in the Bay Area. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was a good friend of mine. But anyway, I didn't graffiti. >> Okay. So, I'm >> But I g I drew all my grip tape. >> All right. That's good. >> But no, I wasn't a tagger. Wasn't a Graffiti guy. >> Yeah. So, I'm out doing like that and you know like

you know we could have like a conversation about creativity and this and that and it's like I can't it's it's very hard to talk about create it's because it's like can you teach a craft? Can you teach a skill? Can I teach you to paint the Mona Lisa? Yeah, I know how to do all that. I know how to like I went to school like I taught myself. I Watched videos like you could teach yourself how to paint something to make it look like something. That's a teachable skill. But creativity, where does that come from?

Are you just born with it? Is it from deprivation? Is like it's like a you know I could I can only share what my path my my path is. And it's like the embarrassment like you're Asian, you need to get a 4.0. You need to get into UCLA. You need to be a doctor or a Lawyer. And it's like me, my I'm on the middle child, me and my two brothers, like long hair, listening to heavy metal and punk. Why you doing that white [ __ ] you know? Like, and then he's got Asian kids

that are into heavy, you know, like there's no identity, right? And then it's just like lost. Just like what the [ __ ] is, you know, like we don't belong anywhere. Just like the Asian depictions uh in media is like long duck dong. Asians Have small dicks. They can't drive. they're good at math. It's just nothing's good, right? And I'm like I, you know, I'm just trying to figure out my way in this world and I and I remember um Sean just was attracted to like whatever whatever little art I'd start getting some noticed and

juxtapose and I was starting to do graffiti everywhere and and uh he's like I [clears throat] want that whatever that is. I want that Like I want to be part of that. And I said, and I I forgot what my painting it was. It was like right when I couldn't sell a painting and then all of a sudden they were selling for a couple thousand. And he's like, and he was a teenager still. And he goes, "My my I I I want your art, but the problem is I'm being sued right now for a trillion

dollars because every single song is a is a lawsuit, you know? I mean, whatever." He it ended up the way It ended up, but I remember he goes, "I'm getting" He showed me a screenshot or whatever. He's like, "I'm being sued for $1 trillion right now, so I can't really afford your art, but like I'm going to get it, you know." So, we we started this relationship, and he would send me these crazy like abstract texts of emails of what he wanted me to paint. And then and then uh he started another company called Plaxo.

And he's like, "No, no." And then finally, You're catching me in the South Bay. You know, I I met this girl, we fell in love, and I moved to San Jose, just the most culturally dead place, and everyone's like rollerblading, working at Apple or MySpace or eBay or, you know, some some tech startup, and they're like, "We're cool because we have a trampoline and a, you know, we have a like a kitchen area where you can have all the Red Bull and snacks you want, and we have bunk beds, so we" And Like that's also

you could just keep working, you know, and So, I meet Sean and he's like, "Dude, we're starting this company called Facebook and like we finally have some money and like, dude, this is" and he's like, "Where are you at?" And he didn't know all this, but I had just gotten out of prison. I was in jail in Japan because I had beaten up undercover security guard. I was 27 when I got and I owed everyone money. I owed my girlfriend money. I Owed And so I needed money bad. And um I was in like a

lot of trouble. I like was I didn't know how how I was going to pay everyone back cuz it's really hard to sell a painting, you know, but my paintings did sell once in a while and they were starting to get pretty expensive. And then uh all the art that I did in jail um I used to work for Vice magazine. I say work cuz but I never got paid but you know I I >> they didn't pay you. No, I I I think People, if anyone's listening, this is a little side tangent, is um

and it's going to definitely sound like OCD, like I'm keeping a list, and maybe I am because I don't think about it, but I I was sitting the other day and I go, they all owe me money. Everyone I've ever worked for, like people like, I got to get paid. like someone develops a skill like I'm good at songwriting or or this or that and and then they go well I Got to like the young people's men well that's my craft I got to get paid I go I never got paid I work for Nike

Levis Ruka Giant Robot Vice [ __ ] even my friends Steve Aayoki and like just all every like 88 Rising if I sit here I'll name everyone but like either they didn't pay me my what they said or I had to threaten to kill them for them to send me or or they just never paid me, you know. And I met Gavin McKinnis when he started Vice and he had Seen some of the art that I did in Giant Robot. He saw that I went to the Congo. He saw like and he's like, "Hey." And

it was all punk rock. Vice when it was like the big format and he's like, "Dude," and he just believed in me. I don't know what he saw. He's like, "Dude, send me a um a drawing of cops beating up this and and I and I did it fast. I did." He's like, "I need it by tomorrow." And I was like, "I can do it." And then he's like, he just was like, "Hey, uh, write me a Story about some shooting in LA, Korea Town, gangster shit." And I go, "But I'm not." He's like, "Just

just do it." And at one point, that was another figure that was resonated my mom of like the rules don't reality doesn't apply. I'm sitting there going, "Wait, but I'm not a journalist. I didn't fact check anything." And there was some issues of vice where I wrote five different articles under a woman's name, a black guy's name, you know, like Just made up names, articles just to fill up pages. And I would have done the comic section, illustrations, music review, uh, street, you know, fashion, you know, the dos and don'ts. And I'm just like, you

can do that? And like I I had already been groomed for that because of my mom. like no rule reality doesn't apply. just my mom thinks I'm the best artist and now here's you know so Sean's like okay and and so I'm I'm in what I Feel is like purgatory the 408 San Jose Militus you know I'm just like what the [ __ ] is this like and I'm telling I got to get to when I get to New York it's like this golden gate like end of the golden road like Wizard of Oz like

when I get there then someone's I'm going to get discovered and then someone's going to be like and and Um cuz what is it you know like what like people like what is and I go I am a I can be a hater. I can be a Loving sweet selfless person. I could be like a very hard judgmental hater to myself and and so I take this so seriously like what we're doing here today is talking. I mean it's mostly me talking. I could see that. But it's like we're having a conversation, but I think

without sounding it's like I I think it's important. That's why I'm here. Like I like I said, like I'm like why? I I feel like I trust you even though I just met You, but like yeah, I [ __ ] puked down the street because I get I go, "What's the upside?" Like I'm going to talk and then maybe I say something that I didn't mean or I say it the wrong way or it gets clipped weird or edited and I go and I go, "I think it's important. I I want to come. I want

to talk to you." And I and that's how I feel about my art. So what is that? What is art? What is creativity? And and for me it's like I think sports are very gay, especially Skateboarding. Like I if I never played sports, I would have never seen another man's penis, you know, like and then in my time in sports, it was very rough because I wasn't I tell I told myself any athlete that I paint with, they always start saying the same thing. I suck at drawing. And I go, why did you do that?

Why did you immediately shoot yourself in like who who said that? Did someone else say that or did you say that? They they start with saying Something negative. And I go and and then I go that's exactly what I say if they try to teach me how to throw a free throw. I go, "Ah, this is going to suck." And they go, "Why did you do that?" And so for me growing up, I grew up with in a lot of black neighborhoods where the second, you know, I don't know how to play basketball, but the

second I try and I [ __ ] up, it's like, "Look at Chinese kid [ __ ] try." You know, it's like, "All right, you know what? I'm not Even gonna try it." you know, and it's like, well, you should have just come at like 5 in the morning when no one was there, you know, but like I was so sensitive. I was like, I don't want to. So, I did things in the, you know, it's art is a solitary sport for the most part, you know. I'm not there's no Rob there. There's it's just

me like like even in the thing it's like this like don't look at my sketchbook and but in here I can [ __ ] up and fix Erase whatever. But so like in sports, you know, it's like you're slapping guys asses, you're taking showers with them, you're doing all this like male bonding stuff. You're just spending a lot of time with other men, right? Like and I'm [clears throat] like, "Oh god, like what is the feeling? I'm trying to isolate the feeling. What like what?" And I remember Because I I don't like I tell this

stuff not to be like feel sorry for me or I'm a victim. I don't feel like that. I mean this I'm just >> telling I'm telling you what happened. And part of it is >> you do like a what what would you rather would you rather someone beat you up for five minutes or have the whole world read your diary? You know like these kind of and and luckily I had both. You know I've been beaten to an inch of my Life. I've had like I've had broken bones. I've been stabbed. I've been burned. I've

been like everything physically you can think of and and I'm still here, right? So there's not much like I I in like because I have my mom's delusion like when I talk to Joe and he's shorter than me, but I I I know he could probably like logically I know he could probably kick my ass. I have no fighting background, but in my head I'm like, I'm pretty sure I could kick his Ass. And he would [ __ ] and and I that's just the way I walk through life. Like like I still believe in

Santa Claus. People go, I can't believe I just said that. I don't I think that's the first time publicly I've ever said that. >> We're coming up on uh >> No, I know. >> You know, Christmas. >> By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 For more than a decade. And indeed, that's true. The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012 and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most

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don't know it's changed now, but I I remember when I was a kid, it was around six or seven when they start going there's no [ __ ] Santa. But I was eight and I was like and they're like how dumb are you? And I I understand this reflects back to my mom and Jesus. I go and they go, "But you've literally never got any presents from Santa. How?" And and and I'd go to shame. I go, "Cuz I'm a bad kid. I cussed. I was like I stole stuff from the supermarket, you know, like."

And um they're like, "Hey, [ __ ] face. Santa's not real." And I just was like, "But he is. I believe that he is." And and I I believe I go there's there's him not giving me a present is like cuz I put him in this God category. Maybe he's not God, but maybe he's a a god, like a demigod or Something. And they go, "How is he how does he know if you're naughty or nice?" I go telepath. How does he how does he get every [ __ ] present to every kid in that

time? I'm like, oh, he's he's a mutant. He can multiply. He can make copies of himself. How does he get through that tiny chimney and go teleport? Like, I just It's not even a question. I just know I I believe it. And I don't care how stupid you think. Like, I guess this is me coming out with My Santa Claus, but it's just like I just believe that. And you can't say anything to make me not believe that. That's my blind faith that I got from my mom. So like every Christmas I'm aif I'm almost

50. I'm a [ __ ] middle-aged man that and I go maybe maybe this is the year I'm going to but now I look back and I go the gift he gave me of giving me nothing gave me everything. Right? So I I'm I'm sitting there and I I I'm drawing But I have that story in my head too. Like I suck. Oh [ __ ] that doesn't look like Batman. Oh, his arm looks weird, you know. And then at some point to this day, all the physical and emotional pain uh uh sorry, just the

physical pain like it passes. I've broken bones. I've I've I've had my face just pummeled like just where you wouldn't rec disfigured and but it passes. And I and if I think back, I don't remember it. But the pain that Stays is like heartbreak, you know, betrayal, abandonment. And I just remember my dad would make us keep a journal. Um cuz he just wanted us to start learning how to write. And it start it started with if I take you guys to the movies, you have to write a movie review. And it was like we

were eight years old, seven years old. Just, you know, today we saw Karate Kid. Johnny got chased by skeletons. The end. You know, it was like that like a little kid, you know. But he's like, you have to do it. Goonies was cool, you know. So, we kept the thing, but then he never asked to read it. He just wanted us to do it. And I was like, "Oh." So, I I started like getting more brave. I was like, "I I really like this girl at school." And like, and I would just start getting really

vulnerable and open and just knowing because my brothers don't give a [ __ ] Like, but Then the thought of like, "What if someone ever read this?" So, I was like opening myself up and just letting and I was like, "Oh my god, like it felt so good." Like like I can't tell anyone like I'm having these kind of feelings or like you know, like I [ __ ] hate dad, you know, like so, you know, whatever. And I I would take the bottom drawer out of my desk out and I would hide it under

there. And I shared a room with my brother, so I always did it when He, you know, I thought I was being secretive. And I was somewhere between 7 8 n I it just you know as you get better at writing and I I got more once I got more comfortable knowing that no one I just started writing everything like my brother [ __ ] fart smell like I wish you know just like everything I would write just just completely and I came one day and I saw both of my brothers on the bed reading

it and it I remember my face just like it felt so Hot like like I felt like someone had just like ultimate betrayal and and it was like being naked. That's why I bring up the like I felt more naked than being in a room full of naked guys showering like slapping like it was the most vulnerable like they were being so merciles. H you like her and you did that. I can't believe you've you know because I wrote everything in that journal and I I thought I I was going to die from shame and

embarrassment. And they, you know, like the way kids are, brothers can be, it was merciless. And they made fun of me for years for that. And in the same way, my face was disfigured. And I've had physical abuse and all that. I lived through it. And I was like, I'm still here. And so, why the [ __ ] am I going to be a [ __ ] when I draw? When I draw. No more like, I'm going to draw Batman like this artist or that artist. Oh, I'm gonna draw like, you know, like, okay, that's

fine. You're like trying to figure out how to work with tools and but and that's fine. Skill craft. Great. But like this like showing you like so there's I had been trained now for heartbreak, right? Like a lot of artists spend their whole life being not validated, bullied, rejected, and then finally they figure out how to draw something where people are like, "Yes, we like that." And so they never grow. They do that same verse, that same flow Forever. And then you got people like Andre 3000, they're like, "I don't care. I'm going to I

don't care what, you know, I'm going to do flute shit." It's like, "Well, we don't like that." He's like, "I I don't care. I'm an artist. I'm going to You got someone like Flee who's like, "I'm going to just do performance art." And I'm like, I don't even like half that [ __ ] But I just love them cuz they're and I go, how [ __ ] brave is that? How brave is That? But I remember just to this day, right, I am a very successful established artist. And yet today there's people like, "That's [laughter]

the [ __ ] worst art I've ever seen. That's the that's" and I and I and I go, "Cool." Like but but if you don't have that background of just having your heart ripped out, it is the most painful thing to put yourself out on a c like to pour your that's you. That's your soul and someone's like and Then especially if you're trying to sell it like no thanks, you know. Um, so to have a guy like Sean Parker who's younger than me, but just not even the art, he's just like, I like you,

like whatever that is, and then I want to change the world with this kid that I met, Mark Zuckerberg. And so I meet him with his flip-flops and, you know, I meet the whole crew and I and I go, "What do you want me to do?" He's like, "I want you to [ __ ] paint everything. I want people to be scared. I want investors to be scared when I want everyone to just be like, "We're not MySpace. We're not eBay. We're not I want them to be horrified when they come in here. I want

you to just [ __ ] paint the microwave, like everything." And I go, "In indoors, right?" And he goes, "Yeah." And I go, "All right, so just like cover up your computers and then, no, we're going to we're going to Be working here." And I'm like, "You know how toxic these chemical like I work in spray paint. Like I have brain damage because of this [ __ ] Like I I have like memory issues. They're like, "We don't care." You know, they were like young. They're like, "Fuck the world. Hack the world." Like all that

[ __ ] >> Hack the world. >> They love say, you know, [laughter] >> so I was there and they would be like, >> "Let's [ __ ] blast Da Punk." Like I I don't this is a world I'm not you know I like going into different worlds and they're like we're gonna blast da punk because I guess it's like something with the repetitiveness and the coding and we're going to do these hackathons where we just [ __ ] hack into [ __ ] and [ __ ] >> it was punk rock. It was like

a very nerdy punk rock but they're like we we don't give a [ __ ] Like and I I like That spirit but they were such nerds and they were so earnest. There they there was a you've never heard people talk like that where they're talking they're like and we're going to change the world and I'm like I'm into that whatever that is and they thought they were so cool when they thought they were giving me a Stanford email. I go I I I because I'm not on social media like I never I'm a lite

I don't I'm the last to whatever new technology I'm like all Right like I've never touched AI any of that and and so I was like you guys are trying to be like MySpace but MySpace is it's already here like for the young people listening like there was no Facebook there was no Instagram it was MySpace it was just dominated and they're like yeah but we're we're [ __ ] MySpace for Ivy league, you know, >> that's right in 2007. That's right. Cuz that was a post in order to get Facebook, you had to have

an Ivy League or a Stanford email technically in the You're not the only one, [ __ ] Stolen Valor. So, >> I love it. >> So, I forgot what it was. It was like Choy Stanford. .edu and But like I remember he gave it >> still exists. >> I don't know. He's he I remember him giving it to me like it's something I wanted. I was just painting. He's like, "Dave, you don't have to go. I I'll I'll get you a Stanford email and then you could be part of Facebook. I'm like I don't want

to be I don't I [clears throat] don't care. I don't care what you like you want to be you and Mark and all these guys want to be in this like and they're like he was like confused cuz he's like you don't want the whatever like respect and whatever comes with be having a Stanford. I go no I I Hate education. I hate learning. I hate teachers. I hate like what the [ __ ] are you talking about? And he he he was like I go why don't you just make it for everybody? And he's

like oh like you know I the thing is like it was so funny when the David Fincher movie came out cuz it's just an awesome movie but it's just I was there for all of it and it just did not like some of the facts are right but it it just didn't go down that way you know. But so so Mark is like a Genius and and and Sean I mean similar to my mother. It's like I think Naomi is still there. It was like Naomi, Mark, Sean, Dustin, and me just like gassing them out.

They're just trying to code like and I'm like listening to all their conversations and I'm like telling them how nerdy they are. I'm like, "Bro, make it for everybody. don't you know like and they're like and I would listen [clears throat] in on All their conversations like so [ __ ] cool Dave Joe's painting our office and I was like oh they like me you know like I'm I'm being validated not just by my mother you know um and so you know I I do everything backwards and we start to discuss payment you know and

at that time I had once in my life sold a painting for like 10 grand and it was like a fluke and that's another story that I could tell about rejection and all that But um so I just I just did Some dumb ignorant math. I was like, "Well, that painting was this big and I I was like 60 grand, you know, and I needed that. I needed that to pay off everyone." And then at the time up until going to jail, like I had been a thief. I was doing a lot of stealing to

support my like I was like I'm graffiti doesn't pay the bills, you know? >> Stealing your paint. >> Stealing everything. Was Facebook office Painted with stolen cans? >> Probably. Probably. Um, yes. Yes. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Um, >> my my graph friends graph graffiti for those that don't the graffiti, but they were like world class crooks. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Cuz they were always stealing pens and paint and, you know, I mean, they >> Exactly. I mean, it's like you like it doesn't pay the bills, you know. >> Yeah. So uh what had transferred uh

you know you know the nature of addiction is if you don't get to the root of it it just keeps jumping right like uh whack-a-ole. So it whack-a-mole um into my my background which is watching my parents take huge. So I got into gambling. So I was just g like it there was every paycheck anything it was always I gotta figure out a way because Gambling feels like stealing and it's you know and I sat there and and people were just like you work at Facebook like that's you know my friends that aren't in that

academia they're just like that's like the the the shitty MySpace you know like look at the font look at the you know all the artsy crit like look at the designs [ __ ] you know what is that the the name Facebook. Come on. Like that's the most creative, you know. [snorts] And I said, I think uh I'm gonna ask them if I could get shares in the company, you know. Um >> you did you understand equity in that whole thing? >> I don't understand anything. And it's like I have shares in other companies that

are all worthless, right? Like it was just it was growing up with my mom watching her that if I didn't have that like I just and I don't even understand that [ __ ] just I remember being with uh having lunch with Zuck's uh parents and like you know he doesn't he comes from a nice family and I think Yahoo or Micros someone had offered him right in the beginning a billion dollars for it and he's like no thanks and he's still sleeping on a [ __ ] mattress on the ground eating Doritos and I'm

like like you know I'm trying to like pay my [ __ ] uh all my friends back and I'm like oh he doesn't give a [ __ ] he doesn't care about money. Like he cares about like what he cares about. It's like such a singular focus. He's like, I want to [ __ ] disrupt the I want to bring the whole world together. It was, you know, youthful idealism. And I remember uh uh going to work uh one day. I just loved working there cuz I don't get jobs like that where they're like, "Paint

everything like like you're you're here like doing this and I'm Painting around like I'm painting on everything." And and the best part is they didn't even like what I was painting. Like Mark would come and he's like, "What? What is that, dude?" And like Sean's like, "Dave, you know that other thing you did I saw at the art show? Can you?" And I was like, "You didn't ask for that. You said [ __ ] destroy like you said scare people when they walk, you know." Um, >> as I recall, there's like a there was Like

a big primate like monkey with jagged teeth and some crazy. >> I was I was, you know, and I was gassing myself out, you know, like >> I'm like doing all that [ __ ] without a mask on. It's all going right into my brain. Um, I'm like whoever know whatever spray toxic spray paint fumes does to your brain and there's no fresh air coming in. And I remember Sean Parker just bronze just bronze skin like $200 haircut custom suit and I go, "Who are you, man?" And he was doing what my mom was doing.

I was he was just [ __ ] doing push-ups and like and I was like this skinny little nerd like just is like handsome. And I go, "Oh, this is what my mom used to do before she went into a bit. She used to [ __ ] And he's like, "Oh, we're we're going to get we're going to [ __ ] raise some money." Like he was And I go, "Holy [ __ ] this guy's so sick." You know, and he transformed his physical appearance Because he was about to go into like serious fundraising. And

that's when I met the PayPal guy and Peter Theo and like just I was like this guy's [ __ ] you know like people give all the credit to Mark but I'm like Sean guy was he was an artist in you know and also like out of control which like [snorts] that attracted each other [gasps] and he was there when they got when he got fired and all that stuff but I remember Like the impact that had on me like Wow. Like you heard you've heard the fake it till you make it, right? It's like

I I know I'm not the best artist in the world, but my mom thinks so, but Sean Parker like other people think so. And I'm but I'm like but that's whatever. They're just kissing my ass or whatever. And then there can be a switch. And and I think it's like Sick and tired of being sick and tired or enough is enough. Like I just can't take it anymore. It's like, well, I I I can't live like this anymore. I I I feel like I'm trapped. I feel like And so then it's like, oh, you can't

travel. You need money for that. Well, I'm going to hitchhike then. I'm going to hop on a freight train. I saw the entire world with nothing. No money. like, "Well, it must be nice to be rich." I go, "I'm rich now. I've had nothing my whole life And I just had to [ __ ] fight for it." And like, would I recommend it? Like, a lot of it was illegal. I spent a lot of time in jail. But also, jail didn't hurt me. I lived and I spent some time there. I got to learn who

I am. And and so it's just to piece out the skills you learn for what's creativity, what's business, what what what aided me and helped me at this time in my life that which no longer aids me now and how to like cuz my the other thing I learned from my mom Is just just adapt. Oh, our business just burned down in the LA Riots. And instead of like sitting there, he's like, "Okay, now we're doing this. Now we're doing this. Now we're doing this." And I'm like, I remember getting a job in uh Beverly

Hills right after high school. I was 18, 1994. And it was at this weird comic book, like a high-end comic book store called Comics Top Hits. I'm not a comic book guy. I love comics. And I remember I beg the guy for a job. I'm like, "Please, please." And he's like, "All right, fine. The customers seem because I would just hang out there and talk to the customers anyways." And I remember one day Stan Lee showed up and I'm like [ __ ] Stan Lee like my hero, you know, and he and he sat there

and um people were bringing him Darkwing Duck, Batman, Archie, like all the things he he he didn't work on. Hey, Marvel fans. And he just signed everything. And I'm Like I was like the guy managing the line that day and I'm looking at his hair plugs and I go, "You [ __ ] f like you didn't [ __ ] invent Batman. You're, you know," and at the end of the day, I built up enough confidence to, you know, as everyone left and we're packing up, I'm like, "Stan, dude, you didn't invent Batman. Why the [

__ ] you signed that guy's book?" And he's like, "Did you see their faces? Did you see like they were so happy? Like Why would I why would I get in the way of their happiness?" And I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] dude." It's like, "Yeah, don't correct people." And I thought about that like everywhere I go in the world and there's like Ching Chong, China. This I I remember being in Africa and these kids were just chasing us everywhere going ching chong. And our translator was a French Vietnamese guy and he was like, "Dave's

Korean. I'm Vietnam." It's like, you're Just they don't give a [ __ ] dude. They don't give a [ __ ] And I remember just the things I'm talking about is like watching Sean Parker shapeshift, watching my mom shapeshift, watching um act as if you belong. Act as if you have a seat at the table. It's like the [ __ ] It's like I know that's part of being artist is being like shy, nerdy, self-conscious. It's like just pretend like you're the best artist in the world. Like you just show up and you're Like put

like this is the journey from their head to heart. You're this is a I I like when you talk because you you make sense, but there there's that and that's why the smartest people in the world are the dumbest [ __ ] idiots I've met because they try to apply logic to everything and you're applying logic to spiritual problems. You're applying logic to emotional problems and it's like how's that working out for you? It's not it's Not you're never going to outthink a feeling. You're never going to outsmart a feeling. like you're like wait the

the these people are act like why who would do that? Why why would you do that? I'm like because it's not logical. It's it's an emotional thing. It's a it's a it's a mentally ill whatever it is. It's uh it's not logic based. It's emotion based. It's mentally ill based. It's spiritual based. Like you can't [ __ ] with people's religion or what they have Faith in or and and all this stuff. So, I'm watching I I remember going Stefan correcting the black kids that he's Vietnamese is making them feel stupid and they're getting angrier.

The kids that think I'm Bruce Lee and I just confirm that I'm Bruce Lee are getting happy, right? It's like people are dumb out there. That's fine. I don't care. I'm dumb. I'm stupid. It's like when someone corrects me or it makes me feel shame and dumber, but then if no one Corrects me, it's like then it's my own [ __ ] to figure that out or not. Right? So watching these people like very successful people in my life, my mom, she's like unstoppable, right? Anything the world throws at her, she just goes, "Okay, I

guess we're doing this now." Like she doesn't hang on. She's like, "Hang on tightly. Let go lightly." Right? It's just like, "Okay, we were real estate people. Now we're doing herbal life." Oh, the that Happened. Mark Hughes died. Okay, now we're doing this. Like she just goes like that. Like like adapts to any situation. And like right now I get a call a week from all artists, creative types that there it's, you know, we don't have AI talk. I don't I would rather not have an AI talk, but it's Armageddon, right? Everyone's like, I spent

my life doing sound engineering and now it's gone. Just like the guy who would do the like Hand letter this and then Photoshop. Boom, your job's gone. The Carl Zeiss lens go on the iPhone and now photographer like it's just it's gone. Like you could sit there and start complaining or you could just keep adapting. And so I think true creativity you can't contain. If you're if you're open and you're ready to get naked and you're ready to, you know, people like, oh, do you have to suffer to be a great artist? Absolutely. But you've

already Suffered enough. It's already done. Like whatever happened to you in your childhood, that's enough fuel for the rest of you don't have to continually. But I see myself and others at times like I I hopefully I'm better now, but I see people continually putting themselves in a this situation to like suffer more and more and more and and I and I just I just remember the the shame of my my like it's just these things. They're they're they're you know decades ago, but they're still like my dad just like throwing me ac like we

left another country so you could be a criminal event. Like just he was like I'll just kill us all now. We were in the car leaving the police station. He's like I'm going to crash the car. And I was like I was in the back like kind of disassociating, numb, crying, like feeling mixed emotions going from like victim to sorry to like well [ __ ] you Then. And you know all everything in between. And then um this going I accept now. >> Oops. >> I accept. Sorry. Am I close enough to the microphone? >>

You're good. >> Am I close to the microphone? [screaming] >> Um just going I I'm I'm going to choose to believe what my mom believes in me. I'm the greatest artist on the planet. I Was in my 20s. I was like, "Fuck it." like going into galleries, looking at comic books and um can I tell you one quick [ __ ] you Sean Parker story? So at at the at the time I was doing Facebook like things were happening like I had a Vice show selling my jail art which gave me a little bit of

cash. I was starting to work for Heidi Fice to do a a erotic mural for her sex shop in Hollywood. And I had just gotten a job to do Jay-Z Lincoln Parks mashup album cover. And it's like I needed the money and I need and it was just like it things were I was like it's starting to happen like things are you know and and this is while I was doing the Facebook thing so they hadn't blown up yet, you know. And uh they gave me the job and I'm like the biggest rock band in

the world and the biggest rapper in the world are doing an album together and they want me little old me to do the I felt so I mean they [ __ ] butchered the art. The I gave [snorts] them the art and they just made it look shitty. They put a shitty font on it. They put a like they did fake graffiti spray. I was like what the [ __ ] did you whatever. Anyways, that's a whole other thing. But um I you know I'm like cool like what's that gonna pay like you know like

and they're like two grand. I'm like wait you know it's like this one day I'm going to make it and my name is going to Be in lights and and I and I knew other artists so like Mir did uh the Limp Biscuit cover Shepherd Ferry did. So I I knew them well enough where I was like, "Hey guys, am I getting [ __ ] right now?" Or and they're like, "No, that's typical." I go, "That's what they pay artists for." I mean, cuz back in the day when I was doing art paintings, whatever, galleries,

uh, or illustrations, that was the range, 200 to like 2,000 at the most if You're doing like a cover or something. But I'm like, "An album cover for" And they're like, "No, that's what they pay." And I was like, "Damn, dude. I thought this was this is big time, you know, and so I negotiated for that. At the same time, I'm working at Facebook and I drew this crazy cover and they're like, "Yeah, that's for the rights for the album cover, right?" So then, I don't know, the album comes out and then they use the

art everywhere. They use it On billboards. My friend's reading comic books. He's like, "Oh, they did a full page ad." And I go like, "For illustration, that's a separate fee, right? It's like here's the rights to use on the album cover. Here's for advertising, right?" And so I'm talking to I don't know anything, right? I'm a [ __ ] horrible street artist running. Oh, I call myself a street artist. Uh, delete that from the microphone. [screaming] Sorry. Um, so I I'm, you know, and you you could like bleep the names or whatever because I I

clearly remember. So I call Warner Brothers and I go, "Hey, uh, can I talk to whoever's in legal or whatever?" And I go, "Yeah, I talked to my friends who are also artists that are more successful and they said there's a separate fee I should be getting for billboards, you know, bus bench usage, magazine, editorial, you know, you know, magazines Used to be big, you know, Tower Records, Virgin Records." And >> I remember the arrogance on this guy, Chip. He was like their head legal. He doesn't work there anymore. And he's like, and I I

remember the way he talked to me felt like my child like just made me feel so he's like, "You're some shitty graffiti." Like, "Who the [ __ ] are you?" You know, like why am I wasting my time talking to you? And I go, "Well," and he started like just Hitting me with legal ease. And I go, "Hey, I'm raising my hand right now. You can't see." I'm raising my hand saying, "I don't understand what you're saying. Can can you please talk to me?" And like can you dumb dumb down like you're trying you're like

trying to beat me up with words right now. I'm just saying I, you know, it should be an additional 10 grand, 15 grand for what you guys did. I'll be happy with another five or you know, just like trying to talk and he's Like, I don't know who the [ __ ] you think you are. And it was like very condescending. And I and I I remember the arrogance of I was like, I could be recording this call or you know, but he was just and I was like, for a guy named Chip, that's such

a weird, you know, um, you could come at us with lawyers. You could like and you may be even right but guess what you're [ __ ] with Warner like you'll never win like you will Never get another dime out of us. I was like, "Holy [ __ ] that what a [ __ ] And like I said, like if you're gonna be like people are like, "Oh, I love painting." Then just paint. Like, "Oh, I want to be." It's like, you know how [ __ ] hard it is to make money as a creat.

It's like you got to fight. You got to get a thick skin and you better be ready to like I had to threaten Nike with blowing up their entire parking lot before they paid me. I was like, "You Asked me for these drawings. I did them. I delivered them on time and you're giving me the checks in the mail." And I called like Widen and Kent, you know, whatever the Oregon and I was like, I live in LA. It's gonna take me this many hours to drive and I'm gonna I don't know which car is

yours. I'm gonna blow up every car. Check was in the mail the next day. I'm like, why did I have to do that? Why did I have to turn into my mom to get the but most artists go and then They just get [ __ ] over, right? So that's part of being an artist is getting [ __ ] over, not getting paid what you deserve, blah blah blah. So, I'm like obviously sensitive and painting like in a bad mood. And Sean's like, "What, dude? What's up, Dave? Why you?" And I told him what I

just told you. And he's like, you know, and Facebook has like big money behind it now. It's growing. He's like, "Oh, we got a multi-million dollar deal with Warner Brothers tomorrow and the meeting." And I was like, he goes, "Check this out." So he has the meeting with Warner Brothers and they're like full like you know everyone's at the long table and they're like oh we want to advertise with Facebook and this is the new this is the new world and and they're like okay cool and it's like you know it's like millions of dollars

or whatever hundreds of thousands of dollars and he's like yeah but that guy Chip [ __ ] with my friend Dave Cho so we're not doing [ __ ] with you guys and he just and I was like this guy's my dog forever like like what how like like just does not no [ __ ] given, right? I was like I cried. I gave him a hug. I was like, "Don't [ __ ] with me. Don't [ __ ] with me." Like [laughter] it felt so good. It felt so [ __ ] good. I was

like, and then I found out he got fired and all that [ __ ] Like I was like, "Yes, sometimes the little guy Wins, you know?" Like it felt so good. >> I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much

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of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd Like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to Function. So, I got all the typical shame and all that. And and and to be fair, if you're my dad and you [ __ ] escaped the war and famine to raise your family In America

and you see your kid stealing paint at Home Depot to graffiti dicks on walls, like you're going to you're not going to. So, I give him that, you know. But I I just I was I felt I didn't know where I belonged, you know? I I'm like I I I couldn't process. Maybe I have dyslexia. I I was in school and it just I couldn't none of the information I was like this is so hard like people like I would try really hard to get a C right where other people were like oh Okay you

know X I was like why is there an X in math and they were like Dave and they they'd dumb it down and dumb it down I'm like I'm I'm [ __ ] I think I need to go to that class like I'm like I felt like I felt because both my brothers have like really high IQ's and I'm like I'm I'm stupid like I you know so I felt really small in that area and and I and I and I made up the story like I suck at sports. I go so this this is

it. This is All I'll ever be good at. So I and and now I'm going to fully buy in to what my mom's saying. And because I grew up with the Asian work ethic like I'm like it's not a f I am I it wasn't like I am going to be the best. I was like I just adopted I am the best artist in the world. and to that power of thought. Like I sat down and I'd go to museum. I studied everything. I studied comic book art, cereal boxes, museums, fine art. Why does this

I just got into the Business side of art, the creativity, [ __ ] loose watercolors, like tiny detailed pen draw, like everything. And I was like, and I was like over I'm like I'm going to be good at all of it. Oil painting like there. So people go what what kind of artist I'm an artist everything. when I talk, when I make music, like I am going from I'm a piece of [ __ ] I suck to like like, you know, not healthy, but you know, it's like I am art god, you know, like. And

so I was Like in my 20s just like brainw like waking up and then like that's not how I naturally woke up. I woke up like, "Oh, fuck." You know, and I'd wake up and I'd have to put that on like you're the greatest. You're the, you know, like um hypnotizing myself. You're the best. do the [ __ ] best. You're the You're the greatest. You know, >> were you doing any like reading books? Cuz at the time when you and I are Basically the same age. >> Um back then [clears throat] wasn't a lot

about like neuroscience and this and that and like actualization. It was all kind of, >> you know, hidden away, but there was this there were, you know, there was like the Tony Robbins type stuff and there was the there was this idea and infomercials and stuff that like that you could program your mind. Sounds like you just basically took all that on Without any of that. >> Yeah, I didn't read any of that stuff. I I stole lots of books and I would read a lot of pornography. I guess this kind of can I could

uh fit my Pee-Wee Herman story. If we're talking about publishing, it's hard to talk about this cuz kids ask me all the time like, "How'd you make it in art?" And like nothing I did applies to today. You know, it's like I went to Kinko's. I would have to spend my money or figure Out how to do that copy thing, that trick to make more copy because color copies are 99 cents. It's like who has So I'd have to pick which one of my paintings were the best. Make these like mini color copy packets. So

that's $10. And then I would go to the news stand and write the address like Rolling Stone like all the magazines that had prestige and like CF Payne, Kent Williams, Baron Story, like all these amazing illustrators that would would work for Time magazine, Rolling Stone, Playboy, like they would all use. So I would open the the front page where it had the heading of art direct and I would write write it down and the news stand guys like I sound like a boomer right now. like, you know, it's like, who the [ __ ] Like,

there's kids listening right now. There's a magazine. What's that? You know, but that's what I had to do. And I would be like, which magazine do I want to send this $10 packet that I just And Then I have to mail it to and hopefully like they get that letter and not some other department, you know, and then you I just rejection letter after, you know, like sorry, sorry, sorry. And um so I'm I'm I'm sitting down and I'm I'm I'm like I'm I'm ingesting all this and and I have the p I have the

fire and I'm like sitting down and I go that like what why is that drawing successful? Why do you know? And of course there's tons Of insider trading and corruption in the art world, but I didn't know that at the time, right? It's like, "Oh, that guy's dad owns [ __ ] water." [laughter] Like that guy, you know? So, I would just sit there and I I would be like, "That guy drew this much. I'm going to draw 10." Like, "That guy did this and I'm going to draw, you know, and I and I just

some of my paintings, all my paintings back then had like at least seven layers, if not more. Just layering and layering and Dancing. It was me. It's like a musician that's like I have to like I I saw a thing with Rick Rubin and and uh Flee doing give it away now. And he was just like just you know he can do but he was like just do like just play less. And back then it wasn't it was like I need to show everyone what I'm capable of which is I can draw better than you.

I can paint. I have to show you that. Now I don't care. But back then it was and and it isn't that art is a it's not who Can put the most lines down or you know and so I'm I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to like and it was just everyone has their own path but I remember year 2000 I'm doing graffiti I'm getting some gigs to do murals you know it's just slowly starting and someone contacted me at Marvel Comics and I was like man I didn't even cry and like this is this

is it. This is my dream and they we want you to draw the X-Men but like a cool Cool X-Men. I'm like [ __ ] I didn't even have to go to portfolio day. I didn't have to, you know, and I go, "Oh, I knew if I just kept putting my [ __ ] out there, you know, but I'm, you know, I'm what, 23 at the time, you know, and uh I start drawing it and I guess they fired me or they didn't fire me. They just decided to use a different artist, but they never

told me. So, I'm still drawing it and I'm, you know, I'm a passive aggressive angry kid already. And I didn't email. Some people had emails, but a lot like a lot of artists hadn't. This is the beginning of the internet. Like people weren't using it the way they do now. And I remember it was like the first message board where my friends were like, "Hey Dave, you got fired off the X-Men book." And I go, "What? How did you know?" And they go, "You don't use the internet." I go, "What is that?" And they showed

us. And I felt shame again. I was like, "Oh my God." Like I was so excited to like there's little things in my head like if I do a comic book that means I made it and I wrote the most scathing homophobic racist like just I was mad. I thought it was funny. I was 23 at the time and it was like 10 pages long but I didn't know the editor of Marvel. It's probably not even him. It was just and I didn't know how to get it to him. So, I just went to Marvel's

website and I just sent it to Every single person that works at Marvel. Like, copy paste and the next day was my first experience in the year, you know, Y2K 1999 2000 of going viral. They're like, every artist I look up to, every writer I look up to in comics was like, we don't know who the [ __ ] this kid is, but he just committed career suicide. And then once again, shame. And so like if I go back to all my shame stories, I go, "What's the what's the through line?" And we should Have

made the secret word shame, but um oh, I'm a shame chaser. Like I get high off shame. Like what's my drug? Oh, workcoholism. It's like my my drug that I've chased my whole life is shame and anger. Like [ __ ] powerful drug, you know? And so I I couldn't believe it. I was like, I'm never going to get to draw the Hulk, Spider-Man, Wolverine. And I have and I have at this point and I went through the back door which I always do. It's True true vandal. But I just remember going holy [ __

] this is the worst day of my life. Like people that I look up to they're like they there was like a whole thing of like I don't know who this Dave Cho I've never heard of him but he's a horrible human being. Listen, you know and I was like but there was context like like you should have heard how I saw heard it in my head like I was [laughter] you know and they're like oh it looks different and I was like holy [ __ ] And that that was my first experience of like

of just feeling like me following a pattern of trying to replicate hatred towards me like like if it's but not knowing it. I'm just like I don't know what the [ __ ] I'm doing. And and like some ignorance, some playing dumb, some like repeating patterns like a monkey without knowing. And and and so I had a friend in comics at the time cuz I was just like I don't I I was just making art. I was going out doing Graffiti every [ __ ] night just doing that OCD playing music in my head and

just tagging up everything. Like the the kind of graffiti you're not supposed to do. People's cars, houses. Like I wanted someone to kill me. Like I didn't care. Like I wanted someone to be like, "Dude, I worked hard for that car and you just ruined it." And and in my head, I'm like, "But I'm a famous artist." Which I wasn't. I'm 23. And they're like, "I just made your car more valuable. That's How I'm thinking." But I was out of my mind. >> You probably did make their car more valuable in retrospect. Can I ask

you a question about the shame? >> Absolutely. >> I have a friend. He's a addiction trauma counselor guy. Amazing guy. Uh he's been on this podcast named Ryan Suave. Uh he um he he has a gift for helping people understand trauma and addiction and this kind of thing. We haven't talked a lot About addiction yet today, but um you said you got addicted to the shame. And do you think I who knows here? I'm using my intellectual brain, but >> do you think that the that these oscillations of like your your mindset like I'm I'm

a great artist. I'm the greatest artist sets it up so the shame is that much deeper. Like it's like loading a spring or uh because he told me once, Ryan once told me he was worked with addict, heroin addicts, drug Addicts of all kinds, sex addiction, everything. And he just said uh you know he goes gambling addiction is the worst because the next time really could change it all. And he said but there's something really interesting and that happens to gambling addicts. He goes, "Eventually they get tired of winning and they get addicted to losing."

>> Happens really quick. So, um, I have my own feelings about this subject. I'm I'm a severe gambling Addict. Like, um, I told you I'm going to time jump. So, I'm at at the create, you know, I'm at that point, but I'll jump to current, which is which is a very shameful thing for me to admit or talk about, but you know, I'm here, so I'll just go there. Um, shame is is so powerful because at this point, I've been to all the 12step meetings. I've been to debtors anonymous, business owners, dentist debtors anonymous, overeaters

anonymous, Workaholics, you know, sex and love addicts, sex addicts, uh gambling, like all every single And so what's the through line? Every single one is gambling. Every single addiction is gambling addiction. If you drink and drive, you're gambling. your life could be over and you're, you know, if you overeat and you're diabetic. It's just every [ __ ] addiction is. So, it's addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to. And Your your scientist friend nailed it. It's as I explore my feelings, you know, cuz the the people, what are you running from,

Dave? I'm like, well, I'm [ __ ] running from myself, dude. I don't want to look in the mirror. I don't want to see myself. I I hate myself. So, I'm just running. So, as long as I'm like doing graffiti, running from the police, you know, just just just hopping on a train like like literal running like Literally running to make sure I'm never sit still for one second. Like, what are you doing, Dave? I'm playing drums in a band. I'm [ __ ] you know, uh, at a casino. I'm traveling, doing the news for

Vice. I'm painting at this. Like, I I can't I can't sit still because that means I have to sit with myself and I I can't do that. I can't do that. [cough] [clears throat] I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. I can now. [snorts] So, you know what feels good? winning a lot of money, not working for it, and sitting down at a casino and them knowing who you are and upping the limits and you literally making enough money off Bakarat or Blackjack what people don't make in a lifetime. That's a [ __ ]

That's an insane feeling. How many shits do you think I took today before I came here, Rob? How many? >> Two. >> Two. One big one and one little one. Like scientists don't know what causes IBS. I do. It's stress. When I was gambling, when when I was at the height of any of my addictions, seven shits a day at least. Just like, okay, like just like and and you would Never see it on my face, or maybe you would, but I felt like I could gamble with [snorts] a fortune in front of me. and

lose it and win it and like nothing. Nothing. Like I I was, you know, disassociated, dead inside, whatever you want to say. I didn't feel anymore, right? Like the highs were so high. I had already been chased by the cops. I'd already been beaten the [ __ ] out of. I've already been molested before. I already Whatever you could do to me, You've already done to me and I'm still here. What can you do to me that I like I'm my worst enemy. Like I beat myself up, right? When the gambling stopped, when I got

into recovery, when like I take one [ __ ] a day now when this [ __ ] [ __ ] asked me to do the podcast, I start stressing. I've taken When was that like a few weeks ago? It's It Oh [ __ ] dude. I just took three [ __ ] It started again because I don't have Stress in my life anymore. or like I have whatever normal family stress, but I don't have, oh, you're going to say something on some guy's show and then your life's going to be ruined again, you know? Like

that's I've done that so many times. It's like, so I'm like, [ __ ] I just woke up. I just already took a [ __ ] Why do I take another one? I'm like, oh, the IBS is coming back because there's a part of me that's like, I hope I say something horrible today because then I could feel that again. And so what people when they're listening to this and I don't know if I'm making when I talk sometimes I make sense to myself and sometimes I don't but if you're an addict it will make

sense to you if you're if like everyone listening to this is either an addict or or someone in their life is like their family member or their friend but at this point with social media and their phones Everyone's an addict right they you can't you can't stop it's just impossible you you will never you will never find anything more addictive than a phone right so in the time that like I haven't been in an actual casino in 10 years. I've banned from all these casinos. The whole world became a casino. You can't go anywhere without

gambling. [ __ ] lottery. You can go on your phone. You could bet on, you know, anything, right? So, So at first in every addiction, you want to win. Oh, [ __ ] that. You know, I I I can't I can relate to drugs and alcohol even though I don't do that. But like that must feel good to like get a little drunk and then be the funniest guy at the party or so eating the most delicious foods that I ever ate that I never thought I would eat in my life. And then okay, that's

good. Your body feels good. Why do you need to eat until you're puking and you Become like binging and purging like what? Because what you don't understand because you're applying logic to it is I want to [ __ ] hurt. I want the sh like winning a million dollars feels [ __ ] great. Losing $10 million feels even better. Well, that doesn't make any sense. Like getting married feels awesome. I mean, I'm just making [ __ ] up, but like put put like greatest day of my life, right? Like greatest day of my life. And

this I could get dark. I'll try not to use dark examples, but when when something awesome, marriage, having a child, winning a lot of money, doing drugs, and having one of the best days of your like just when it's on the good side, it feels that's why you do it. Heroin [ __ ] feels good. I've never done it, but the description of it is like that sounds awesome. Why would you not do it again? But then when you're [ __ ] scratching your skin and sucking dick for [ __ ] Crack, like that's another

high where you're at the bottom and that's a repetition of the pattern of whatever your childhood was. And so I don't [ __ ] know Andrew besides his online persona, right? Like we're this this is our first time meeting in person. It's like I this is not me being a know-it-all. Like humans are not that difficult to understand. were very simple. Like I I called him immature a little bit Before, not to be insulting. It's just like part of me is like this is me being a hater. Like I I love everybody, but I'm just

like what what [ __ ] adult gets tattoos? Like what kind of [ __ ] adult get and I know you got [ __ ] tattoos. Like who [ __ ] just like throws their [ __ ] away to become a skater and then like like are you okay with me asking you question? Like >> were you sexually abused? Were you >> No, I was I mean I knew I had friends that were I I looked out. I had one guy come at me that um I worked at a skateboard shop in Palto. Maybe you

saw it Palto Twin Sport. It was like down on Waverly Street. Guy that worked there did that. Uh I responded differently. I flipped the desk over on him. I made him apologize to me in front of everybody. And my biggest fear at that point was my mom, even though we had our tentions, my mom's from New Jersey. >> Yeah. >> She's old school. She knew something happened. And my fear was that if I told her Yeah. >> that she would actually kill him. >> Oh. >> Like actually kill him. Like And you know, because despite

you know, whatever challenges she and I have had over the year. >> Yeah. She like that maternal aggression, that protectiveness, >> she would have killed him. >> So I remember being like not worried about me, worried that she was going to kill him, >> you know. And then um but no, I I I locked out there. I perceive you as a brilliant man and this is this is me gathering data and facts in my life. Not I don't know what the the but you know, you know, very smart. I know geniuses. You know, geniuses. The

smarter the person, the more intellectual they are, The more on the spectrum they are, the greater the trauma they experienced. Because whether that was always in them and the trauma unlocked it or you learned that as mental jiu-jitsu to like these people I know in my life that are just brilliant. Like they're just they can comprehend things that most people can't they could create. Their childhood was so [ __ ] unsafe. abandonment, you know, and usually that's why I asked you about the it's usually sexual trauma Because that's has carries the most shame that they're

like, I was small. I couldn't defend myself that unless I become like like a jiu-jitsu master or fighter, how can I protect myself? And it's with this. So then something gets unlocked here and they become the smartest person in the room and they can just destroy you verbally. They can destroy you in a courtroom. they can just they can just and and and so yeah to answer the you become a shame Chaser. You get high off shame and it's like a that's even shameful to admit out loud. And so like I could sit here and

like if I'm being present with current with up to- date like I have a great life. Like I'm telling you a lot of stories from the past, feelings that I felt in the past. And I I have uh you know I tell on myself all the time when old patterns come up I you know I have a therapist. I got a men's group. I got friends who love me. I I I I raise my Hand. I go I I need help which I never did before. My grew up with shut the [ __ ] up

and figure it out. That's my whole my whole childhood was a question mark. Where are we going? What are we doing? Nothing was explained to me. And so there was a lot of violent, a lot of abandonment. I just like and so I just everything and and that's I pro probably why I'm really curious and ask a lot of questions cuz I I didn't know what was happening and my parents were just like Working all the time. They're like I don't know stay at this house or this and I was just like who are these

people? Like what's happening? What's why is this guy baptizing me for the 10th, you know, like why am I getting on a plane? It's like it was just like just shut up just just go along to get along. And so part of part of my story is if I'm a nice boy, if I'm a nice Asian boy and I do then then the world shits on me. Then everything horrible the second I [ __ ] speak up, scream, get the [ __ ] off, like just do graffiti, break the law, then I get to do

the Lincoln Park album cover, then I get Sean Parker. It's like, and you know, I talked to all the jackass guys about this. It's like you're rewarded for bad behavior. You get to be the president. You get to, you know, like the more I act. And it's so in one way, okay, that's for career, right? But like what about it just runs hell on your personal life. And that's Why when I when I'm in my addiction and I'm chasing shame, I drag everyone who loves me down with them. So I go I I need to

and I don't need my wife or anyone to be my mom. Like I'm like I I'll I'll handle it. That's how I grow myself up. And it doesn't need to be like like I said, brilliance is found in Militus and Palo Alto and Gilroy. Brilliance is f found in the mundane sitting in the waiting room. Brilliance is found in these like Quiet moments. And so it's like I don't need to go to rehab and have like this [ __ ] movie roll kind of. It's just like it's a phone call. It's like let me do

this. And so, um, the feelings, the the chemistry that it's like when when you lose all the money you've ever made in your life in a coin flip and you're just sitting there like, >> no worries. >> Um, hope hopefully I didn't get any on The microphone. >> Um, >> what's that line from that 80s movie? It's not a party till something's broken. I always like that line cuz it excuses it immediately. Some breaks, folks. You just say, >> "Yeah, in this case, >> until something's broke." >> In this case, it was my soul, you

know. So So I was very reckless With with my heart. I treated myself very poorly. I I didn't care for I didn't care what happened to me. And so as I jump from addiction to addiction, it's like, well, which is the one I could hide in plain sight? the one that you're in right now, workcoholism. As long as you work all the time, as long as you're providing people, like as long as you're helping people and being of service, then that's good, right? But what is being neglected in that this Like I mean I I

don't tell this to everyone, but like someone in your situation that you know you have life changes coming up and I already know your answer, but I would I would ask why not take one year off like why? and he's like, "Well, I got my this and I'm this important Stanford guy and I got Yeah, but that will like you only got one life and you know it there's something about it that feels Like when I'm in my workahcoolism like that's the one where I get in this society a pat on the back. Good. Good

job, Dave." And um you know the the Sean Parker story with the with the Warner Brothers that was a win. I was like [ __ ] yeah. You know um but it was it was so much Can I tell my Peewee Herman story? There's some shame in that. I I'll I'll I'll bring it around. I'm I I just don't you know part of my character defects is entitlement and impatience. Like I just once I accepted what my mom is saying true I am the greatest artist in the world according to Jane Cho and now I'm

going to start you know not at first but like I'll start to believe that too cuz you got to it's it's so scary doing graffiti you know not in a crew not in a gang to just go out and it's like it's something so comforting to draw in a tiny sketchbook And no one's gonna see it right you [ __ ] up whatever but to draw something big on a all and everyone going down the 101 freeway is like thousands of people will see it before 8:00 like that sucks that guy has no can control

that guy you're just like you're you're naked you're like this is what's inside me and I did it 40 feet long and here it is and they're like it sucks shame I'm chasing shame like it's like what would it feel like if everyone's Like dude that's the [ __ ] masterpiece not as cool not as cool so I I'm just I'm doing the thing. I'm sending my art out. And uh Labraa used to have a lot of galleries and I and I and in my head I thought my art was better than every artist that

was in those. I would be like and I'd go down the street and I'm like, "Oh, they show that." I would keep a record of what kind of art they show that I'd skate back to my house and Paint like that style but better in my mind. Better. And then I'd make a new portfolio and I'd go down like and they're like who who the [ __ ] like like it's like a d like you have to be shown first before they'll even take and I go but you know so just anger more frustration coming

out sideways coming out doing more graffiti shoplifting food to like you know so then I finally get to Labraa and Melrose where there was a ice cream shop Called Double Rainbow and there's this wonderful lady named Candace there and I was saying how I'm talking now frustr like out loud and my art's just right here. And she's like, "Let me see." And I show it to her. And she's like, "This is amazing." I go, "I [ __ ] KNOW, DUDE. I'm the best." And she's like, "All right, chill the [ __ ] out." All right.

She's like, "Put it up on the wall." And then my ego goes in a [ __ ] ice cream shop. And I go, "Well, I guess No one else is offering." Okay. So, it was like not this. It wasn't like minimalist. It was floor to ceiling, hundreds of paintings, some that I spent months on. like this was singular just I'm the best and I need to show you. It wasn't like tasteful like here's one painting and let that breathe and it was just like here's you know and people are coming in there buying like mint

chocolate chip going that's pretty cool you know and so every day I would get a Call love your art want to buy it I'm like [ __ ] yeah here we go like $2 I'm like you know how long I spend on that art you know and I just was like 50 bucks this you know I'm 23 this is early 2000s. I'm like, that's that's less than the art supplies that I stole to be fair, but still I'm like, can you cover the cost of materials? And they're like, yeah, it's good, but you know, can

you just like haggling like five 10? I'm Like, that's what a [ __ ] print or sticker costs. Like, this is an original painting, you know? And I remember I got a call one day and uh it's this these these things that I keep the stories that I keep editing in my mind to make me the hero, you know, and the guy's like, "I'll trade you a car for like that giant painting, the one that I spent months on." And of course, it's like 1972 Plymouth Fury, no brakes, like cracked wind, you know, just a

complete [ __ ] beater, like piece of [ __ ] But then the story in my head that I go around telling, you know, part of my PR marketing is like I traded my art for a car for an, you know, oh yeah, and like you don't need to know the details of the car, you know. And the guy in the, you know, recycler was trying to sell it for like $2, $300, you know. He's like, just get this [ __ ] off my lawn, you know. And I remember this is how I drove it.

I would drive it and there was no Brakes. So I had to there was like fuel and I had to pump it like a a block before or and then I would always hit the car like ding like that's what and the guy would say hey what the [ __ ] and I'd be like sorry and I had no money to fix it but I was just in my head I I did it. I [ __ ] I did it. I you know like small victories, little victories and then my friends like uh like in

like I knew all like the indie zen like make your own [ __ ] Punk rock like and I would just get rejection letter after just just a continuation of you're not enough your art's not that good. you suck just and maybe they wouldn't say that but that's how I took every you know not at this time not for us rejection [clears throat] letter from Playboy from Rolling Stone and and I just remember one of my friends he just always had like nice sketchbooks and I go what where are you getting that money Like you

do you're a full-time artist and he was like a dirty punk rock guy and he's like you know the skin rags pay just as much it's like they have none of the prestige and like you know I went to the Tower Records warehouse house once where uh they distributed a calendar I made and it's like here's here like this whole table is the warehouse this is like you know Sports Illustrated Rolling Stone this and all of this is porn right So you know you don't want to brag about that but that's just they're like they

pay literally the same amount as Rolling Stone but it's not Rolling Stone. So I go okay I guess I'm doing that. So then I go to the part of the magazine stand where you know there's a curtain and I go back and I start you know butthole fever just start writing down the art director's name and uh that was the thing is like I cared I cared so much about it it was Important to me it saved me art saved me so it didn't matter if I was doing a logo for Nike or Toyota or

like you know I just was like this is you're still looking at me even though if I'm doing a corporate job. Like, I'm I'm in there and I need you to see me and I am I'm even though if I hate the job and you're not even paying me, I'm still going to do my best no matter what. Like, it's I have pride in my work, you know, and I and I I get that from my parents also. And I and I love that. I I I'll go to restaurants where I don't even like the

food because I know the waiter is like running to bring me water and he cares. Like anytime, that's the secret ingredient to anything. Anytime I feel like the person cares, it just it's such a warm feeling, you know, and I cared. I care and I still do. I care a lot. Like I sit here go, I don't give a [ __ ] I I do. I care maybe too much. [snorts] So I write the number for, you know, I Try the legit ones first. Penthouse and Playboy and they're like, nope, nope. I'm like, I I

guess I go to a Hustler and Butt Man and, you know, Asian Fever. And [sighs] I get a call from Butt Man, you know, they're like, "These butthole paintings you did, they're they're just they're so good." And I'm like, "I worked really hard on it, you know, it's not like what I want to be doing, but and uh they're like, can you can you Come in?" And it's just true to their title. That's all it is. It's just all anal. There's no stories about anal p there's page after page. And they go, "Can you do

like this?" But like every week I'm like, "What do you need?" They're like, "You know, Superman [ __ ] Lois Lane anal Spider-Man [ __ ] you know, midgets, like whatever." Like just all anal. And I go, "I can do that. I would I would love to do that." And like we pay, you know, Couple hundred bucks. I was like, and I took it serious. It wasn't like a it was like this is my and a lot of actually famous artists would do that but under fake names and they didn't want to be associated their

real art with that. I was like, and I and [clears throat] so I did I did all this art for uh Butt Man. Once again, if you want to cut out any names, I I remember everyone's name. It was uh art director was Heidi. She was so sweet. She's like, It's just like I was only used to my mom saying she likes my art. So, anytime someone not in my family said they liked it, it was oh, it's not just my mom. Like other people like it, you know? But in a also this massive narcissist

like I'm the best and like no, I'm not that good, you know? But like it's like both, you know. And um I don't know why this always kept happening, but all these places I always worked at, they would always go, "You Got such funny story?" Like, "Do you got any, you know," and I was like, I think I had been with one girl. They're like, "You have any like butthole stories?" And and I and I had been trained by, you know, black belt in lying, my mom, you know. She's like, "Yeah, of course." Like I

don't even It was so easy for me. They're like, "Oh, because these these depictions of anal sex are so they're so graphic and fantastic and every time you come in, you have some weird story like Do do you know any women in your life that have experiences like this?" And I go, "Oh yeah, like super racist against Asians." I go, "Oh yeah, like Susie Suzuki." Like just making up fake names. They're like, "You know someone named Susie Suzuki?" I go, "Oh yeah, yeah." She goes, "Do you think she would write about her experiences?" And I'm

like, "How dumb is this lady? Like, I don't [ __ ] know anyone named Sue. Like, what the fuck?" And she goes, "It's 40 bucks a story." And I'm like, "Cool." Like, they're paying me 150, 200 bucks for this. I'll So, I'd go home and I would just write the most ridiculous, "Hi, I don't speak English." You know, this is the voice I hear in my head. I come to America, need a job, and just writing like every like ridiculous male fantasy like and then he put in the wrong hole and pornography. I became a

pornographer. Like I'm not It's not like the proudest Moment of my life, but I'm like, "Oh god, you know, if God's looking down on me, probably, you know, but once again, shame. I'm cool with it. I I've made I've made myself at home like most people they changed their name. But I was like this is what I do. I'm a [ __ ] you know. So here we go again. My [ __ ] poor parents you know. So I'm living at home right? So I can't hide I could have done a better job hiding the

Graffiti. I didn't. They see the spray paint. They see the [ __ ] paint on all my clothes. >> Was it good? Were you happy with the graffiti? >> No. I hated it. >> Okay. I just uh it's so I have so much respect for that. Like it's it's everything. It's physicality. You're >> you're climbing. You're you're a ninja. It's like [ __ ] Navy Seal. Like it's crazy. Like you need to do a detail of a Nose while you're balancing on barb wire. I mean it's >> Yeah, those kids are crazy. >> It's insane.

I'm like [ __ ] dude. These people if if [laughter] they had a little bit of guidance, they could have been like Navy Seals, Green Berets, whatever. Um, so my dad of course find you know my once again like and then I sit here now as I tell the story and it's coming. Why didn't I hide it better? Oh like maybe I wanted to get Caught. You know my dad [ __ ] throws he's like sex you know just like once again it's like this like think about my dad. It's like his friends are like

going you know his friends kids are like getting the highest SAT scores. they're getting accepted into Stanford and and they're like, "My son has hair covering his eyes. He, you know, I think I was starting to get into like shitty uh '8s like Warrant and Winger and Cherry, you Know, like that kind of like I listen to everything." Um, [snorts] and I just shame I like literally like not feeling it, but like having another human your father tell you, "I'm so embarrassed of my son. I'm so embarrass like like anger tears like just breaking like

why why why did I come to this country? Why did you know just like and I I like I just it's h like now I could feel more when I tell but like before I just like like I just pretended like it was Happening to someone else, you know? I just disassociated. I'm like whatever, bro. Like but it wasn't whatever. It was like my dad disappointed in me. My mom disappointed in me. And I'm like, "Fuck, man. It's still not really working out for me." Like just rejection after rejection. And I just remember uh the

shipping like it was in the Larry Flint building, Wilshire in Los. And I was like, "Fuck, I live like a like I could skate there. Like I'd Rather" and I was scared to like send Oh, so this is what happened. So I got busted. The lady I don't know if she was a lesbian or something. She's like, like I I need to meet Susie Suzuki. It wasn't Suzuk. It was a name like that. It was like Trisha Toyota or something. And I go, "Heidi, are are you serious right now?" It's like like there's that's I

wrote that story. That story is ridiculous. Like in my head I'm like that's so obvious a guy wrote that, you Know? And she's like, "Hey, we might be Butt Man magazine, but we print the truth." And I was like, "What the [ __ ] You're telling me the penthouse letters are real? Like, shut the [ __ ] up." up and she's like she's like took all my art, threw it at me. She's like you will never be publishing butt man anymore. Like she just you're done here. And I was like I spent a long time

on those paintings. Like I all the folds of the butthole and like I like I really tried Hard like you know it's like rejection reject like I I had gotten so used to my parents being disappointed in me. Gallery art like it was just it was like cool. I don't All right. Didn't feel I I mean, I'm sure it didn't feel good, but I had figured out a way to internalize it and just All right. And then and then do my mom's delusional thing, but but I'm still the best. Even though the world's telling me

like you're you're a loser. And I go, Okay, who's the uh art director at Hustler? WT Nelson. Okay, I'm going to So, I call them. I go, hey, I I live, you know, I can skate there. you know, take me like an hour to get there, but I I have these paintings and I don't want to send them in the mail. I never sent pale paintings in the mail before and I'd rather save on the shipping. And he's like, I don't know you, dude. And I don't really, but I had already sent the color Copies

and the the the pages that they had print in Butt Man. And he's like, but all right, I guess you could come. And I'm like like yes, I'm going to go to the Larry Flint building. This is going to be so cool. you know, and I and I go there and he's just like, "Yeah, if you just tweak all these paintings you already did, we'll use those." And Asian Fever, we'll use these in, you know, like different, you know, there was Hustler had like 20 different other Magazines. And he's like, "Yeah, like that story is

awesome. We'll print that story." And I was like, "Okay, cool." So I'm like, "Am I am I a writer?" [laughter] You know, am I part of me was like, "I'm a writer. I'm a published writer." Technically, you're a professional writer at this point. >> And at the time, I was also writing for Vice. I was writing for Giant Robot. Also not getting paid. Like, this was the first time I got paid. So, it felt Like, oh, >> did [ __ ] pay you? >> No, they didn't because they we had that fight and they never

sent the, you know, >> apparently they quote only print the truth, but they also don't pay their bills. [laughter] So, >> yeah. >> The truth only goes so far for them. >> So, I It was me. It was like I can see a lot of my mom in that now of how The reality is I'm not successful. I'm a pornographer, but in my head I'm like I'm published. I'm a real artist like and I'm a writer. I'm a scholar, you know, like I and then he I remember uh WT Nelson paid me and then it

wasn't that much money and like and now it's just like that awkward like Yeah, we usually don't have the artists come to the it's all like through mail and I don't know you you want some porn? >> This was before Facebook? >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. because you the reason I ask is uh and and I don't want to take you off track because I was wondering when Facebook eventually paid out when the equity popped basically. >> I I'll get to all of it and I'm gonna time jump but like it's just uh I want

to stay I want to stay in the feeling. >> Please >> I'm trying to cuz these are all stories I've told before but like I've never Told them from like >> an emotional perspective. It's always just been like almost bragging like I go like like I'm trying to for the first time like sit sit in it and cuz I want to uh focus a little bit on the shame part, you know, and and part of, you know, part of being an artist is just constant rejection. It's like asking a girl out like over and over

again. It's like you're fat, you're ugly, no thanks, you're not, you know, it's like and and And for art it's art is different, you know? like what you think is cool, I might think it's cheesy. And it's like now I can see that, but before I was like, you're in the presence of greatness and you're saying no to me. Like I'm like, okay, okay, all right. I guess it's not good. You know, so it's what I present and what I feel inside. I'm excited to share that Matina, the Yerba Mate drink I helped create, is

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it is they just started sending me boxes and porn porn was expensive. Now, these spoiled kids today, it's, you know, you could see anything, right? It's just free internet. But back in the day, if you wanted to buy a video cassette or a DVD Or or a magazine, those things were like $20. Like, it was expensive. And now I'm getting these care packages from Hustler, just [ __ ] that I'm not even into, like bodybuilder, chicks with CL, you know, like just just a lot of [ __ ] And I'm like, it looked crazy at

my at my apartment. Like, it was just I had finally moved out of the house. I was dating this girl, this crazy actress, and I just it was floor to like every room in the house had some kind of it Was like kind of my identity. They're [snorts] like, Dave the, you know, and she was starting to get disgusted. She's like, who who am I who am I dating? You know, and I I've always like at the core of all my addictions is codependence. It's I don't know what's happening. The world is scary. I don't

feel safe. And I need to go along to get along. And I need to do I need to make myself small so that everyone around me feels okay. And at at the cost of me, that's what I Need. And so, oh, you like that kind of art? Then I'll I'm a chameleon. I'll switch to that. Oh, you like Oh, you like uh Fugazi? Okay, I'll listen to Fug, you know. And there's like it's not black and white. Some of it's true and some of it's like a a mask. And I'm sitting there just just really

struggling like stealing fish down my pants so I could eat dinner at like I'm not getting paid. Like there's no money coming in. It's like graffiti doesn't Pay. Like the pornography like getting paid in porn is cool, but it's not money, you know? Um they're like, "Hey, you want and and I and I have a you know I have a sickness. I have I have a sex addiction." So, it's like, "Hey, do you want 200 bucks or do you want $1,000 in porn?" Which is nothing to them. It's just, you know, so I'm having a

I'm just having a hard time. And I I get to my 72 Plymouth Fury who like every time I get in, I could Kill myself or something, you know. And there's a note on the door and it says, "Uh, doing a period piece movie in Los Angeles. Your car 1970 fits the time. Uh, can we dress it up to make it look like an undercover, you know, pays something ridiculous like a thousand bucks a day or something? I'm like, [ __ ] Like, hell, like these small victories, you know? Oh, [ __ ] Yeah. I

show up the next day, it's on the street, everything in the street. They Made it look like 1970s. There's all these other 1972 and they made it they put the the sirens on the top. They took the license plate off. And the guy that's like dressing my car, one of the, you know, the the union guys looks in the back and he's like, "Yo, this guy has so much porn in the back of his car." And I was like, "Yes." You know, like, and [snorts] I go, "What's this movie?" And I see uh Johnny Depp

come out of the house and he's got a blonde Hair in a ponytail and it's Blow, that movie Blow with Peewee Herman, right? But he wasn't in that scene. And I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] I love Johnny Depp." I'm like, "Oh, [ __ ] That's Johnny Depp." And um this guy's being really loud. He's like, "This guy's a lot of porn." Not just like and I and I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I work for Hustler." You work for Hustler? So, I remember just that was the first time I saw like a celebrity on that level

in real life. And I was like, "Oh, he's kind of short, but like he was like signing autographs and talking to everyone. And I was like, "This guy looks he seems very friendly, you know, like he had that whatever charisma riz the kids say and star quality." So then it's uh you know, craft service, lunch, you know, I'm I'm I'm I've never been on a movie set before and I'm just like I'm getting paid to do nothing and just and I was like between all the the Background guys, I was the the man because I

had so much porn, you know? So I just had I grabbed a sampling of it. that I had some of the some of the ones that I had drawings in and I put some like bookmark like I you know I don't know it's like maybe Johnny Depp's going to see my butthole paintings and be like hey paint me you know like I don't know that's my delusion right so I'm like is he going to eat in his own trailer or is he going to be down with the crew and he Was down with the crew

so it's like lunch and it was just a scene like with I think Ray Leotaa and like all this and I'm just sitting there and I'm like I want Johnny Depp to see like I want to like I don't So, and I'm I'm like, who the [ __ ] I have? I'm like 23. I've you know, I'm like I do graffiti. Like, I got a car that doesn't work for, you know, it's like, but I I was like, "Ah, it's it's it's it's going to happen." So, he's sitting Down with the crew. He's like telling

stories. And I didn't have to do it. Another guy was like, "Hey, Johnny. This guy has all this porn in this car." He's like, "Oh, really?" You like, "I can't do a Johnny Deb impression." And I go and I was like, "My cue I was like, "Hey, Johnny. Like, see this is this is my art and and you know I had some butt man in there. I had hust I I I grabbed the sampling of my you know maybe I had some color Copies of my my art and and he and he and he flips

through it and he's in his wig and he's like he's like it's it's a lot of butts, you know, it's like a [laughter] it's pretty singular vision. I go, "Yeah, I I could do other stuff." And and you know, he just hands it back to me. I'm like, "Oh, fuck." I was like, "Oh, thanks, Johnny." You know, and I was like, "No, that was cool." And then I'm like trying to spin that in my head Of like immediately goes to he [ __ ] hates you. What? Like what? Stupid St. Like why did you you

know like why did you do that and then um I yeah I don't know the movie like you know when they do a Hollywood movie they change the name I didn't know it was going to be blow like that movie's awesome and I feel like defeated and they're like hey you know we were going to pay you for two days but we finished The scene so you're only going to get paid for one day and I'm like I'm going to get as much chicken as possible. So, I start getting the Tupperware and you I'm like,

I'm going to eat for like a week off this craft service food. And I'm I'm walking out and I see all the Star Wagons and I see on the door Paul Rubin's male ho. I'm like, here we go. Like [ __ ] my childhood. I'm like, and he had Gotten caught in jerking off in a movie theater or something. I didn't give like I always maybe I can verbalize it better with the shame but like when Winona Ryder got caught shoplifting or like all of that always made sense to me and it endeared me to

it made me it made them look human like I was like that's weird my hero my childhood hero that did Peewee's Big Adventure Peewee's Playhouse getting caught jerking off and why did he do that? why didn't he do it At home or but I even those things I didn't understand I was like now I'm like I love that guy like I like I have nothing but compassion for like and that's like a lot of stuff that I had to work out with myself because a lot of things I do now is I work with you

know murderers and and at risk youth and ch like I I'll work with anybody because my old self is like [ __ ] [ __ ] this dude. [ __ ] this person. [ __ ] you. You hurt me. Revenge. Revenge. Very Korean, you know. And now I go, if you know, and I work with people in prisons. I go, if you're willing to be a better version of yourself. I I can I'm not a scientist. I don't But I can use art and creativity to work with you to be a better person or try

at least if you're willing. Only if you're willing. If you're not willing, then I don't want to waste my time. And you know, you know, great. So, [ __ ] it. I'm going to do it. So, Johnny don't want the porn here. And I write a little I don't remember exactly what I wrote. And I was like, biggest fan, love you. I I I think I wrote like I don't care what they say about you. Like, I'm still love you and I can draw other stuff, but here's stuff I've done for. And I left it

on his thing and knocked and I I was too embarrassed to like and I ran away. And [sighs] I mean it just there was so many There was so many moments I remember you know and then so like it's it's gradual right like it's like okay and then this little thing happens and this but and uh you know it was like I don't know a decade before the Facebook and also I don't pay attention to that stuff. So, as the Facebook stuff was rising, Sean would text me and he's like, "Hey, you know, those shares

are worth a quarter million now." Or, but Then at the time, I was gambling and I was making that much gambling, so I was like, "All right, whatever. I don't care." And he's like, "Oh, you know, they're worth a million now." And I had quietly become a millionaire. Uh, by the time I was 30, I had a huge art show with uh Steve Lazerites, who's Banksy's art guy, and I was like, I hit at the right time that [ __ ] you know, like, "Oh, [ __ ] you, Dad. Look, I [ __ ] made,

you know, like the art that he Hated me for. I was like, look, there it is. You know, um, and there was always a lot of anger at that. It's like, you [ __ ] live in a house that was paid for by like spray painted dicks, [ __ ] [ __ ] you. Who, you know, like, you know, and and it's like, I love my parents. It's a lovehate relationship. It's complicated. or maybe it's not that complicated, but it's like um you know hearing I know how proud of Even though it's not very Asian

for a parent from another country to say I'm proud of you like he he tell you know he he's like we like kiss on the lips he's like I and he rubs my face like I [ __ ] love you dude he doesn't cuss but he's like I love you I'm proud of you and it's like all that [ __ ] I just it's like you know so I have a lot of compassion for for my my family. Um, so like I remember uh and then things like I started working for Vice, you know, I

had this relationship with Gavin McKinnis and Shane Smith and they just they're like, "Hey, you you went to Africa to look for a dinosaur. You hitchhike." And this was as print is dying and things are they were the first early adopters of tech and you know they're like we're vice is going to move to online. I like who I'm always the guy that's like who the [ __ ] you [laughter] Know and it's like I'm like Korean force gump. I'm like just in the room with like the most important things in life happening and I

go all right cool and they're like what can you film for nothing? [laughter] you know, cuz it was and like Spike Jones was there in the beginning. Johnny Knoxville like, you know, it was like the beginning of of that of Vice, you know, and end it all [ __ ] up because of greed and all that [ __ ] But I was Like, every time I hitchhike, something crazy happens. I like, okay, cool. Film that. So then I start filming thumbs up. I think the first, this is what I was saying with time. I think

it was 20 years ago. And I do all that [ __ ] And then it's like all the things like I was saying that I was arrested for, I got shamed for, embarrassed for, now people are giving me money and jobs and they're like, "Yeah, all that [ __ ] up [ __ ] Can you do it on camera? Can you, you know," and I was like, "Oh, they like me. My mother was right." you [laughter] know, and uh so one day um uh my friend Dave Chang, who also is, you know, has severe gambling

issues, you know, I didn't want to meet that guy cuz I was like looking in a mirror. was like everyone's like he's you but of cooking and I was like I don't need to meet like I need to meet with people That lift me out of my [ __ ] not that's why I hate meeting other addicts cuz then it's like you know [snorts] like you never know how it like right now I'm sitting here telling if I'm getting if I'm being if I started this show telling you what I least want to share it's

like now I'm addicted to Pokemon right like you go oh you haven't gambled in a casino in 10 years you haven't you and you pat yourself on the back and then the worst thing happens. My kid gets into Pokemon. I go into a shop. I had no idea that packs cost $20. I open a pack and the worst possible thing could happen. I get the hit card. It's like, "You got the the Sun Bion, the $1,000." And I'm like, "Wait, wait, wait, hold on. Wait, what?" And I go, "Oh, this is gambling." And in six

months I I've gone from like maybe I'll spend a hundred bucks which which at the time I was like for [ __ ] cards and now I spend thousands of dollars a day On it and it's and now and and I always I always turn my addictions which I'm always open about into my job but it's for work. The buttholes that was for work that you know everything's for work. It's like oh now I'm drawing on the I got one for you. I'll give it to you later. I drew on Mike Tyson for you because

I know you like sent me I should get context Dave sent me a text yesterday. He said, "Oh, what's your favorite Pokemon?" And I don't know Because I don't all Pokemon. He goes, "What's your favorite athlete?" I said, "Mike Tyson." >> That's a Pikachu painted on top of uh Mike Tyson for you. >> So dope. >> So, [laughter] so I mean it's it's like >> Thank you. You're welcome. you know, the addictions, the things they say about addiction is it's it's baffling, Cunning, seductive. And so you I I'm like, "Oh, I'm not the gambling comes

up in other ways, you know, it's like trading cards, you know, like little things." And it's like I don't I'm not as a middle-aged man, and I'm shaming myself. It it doesn't feel good to be, you know, like like I'm friends with guys that are like like Money Mark who's in the Beasty Boys. Like he's 65. And my friend Bill Pune, who I used to do a Podcast, he's 62. So like I'm I'm a middle-aged man hanging out with other middle-aged men in the middle of the night talking about Predator Badlands, talking about like childish

arrested development type of [ __ ] I I go and and the thing is like I've been to c countries and cultures where there like even being a Mormon and like when you turn 18 there there is a a ritual that happens that says now you're a man and we don't have that in our culture. So That's why you have grown men wearing Pokemon t-shirts and talking about fantasy. It's all the same fantasy football. It's all fantasy. It's all immature [ __ ] and you just have grown men collecting toys and comic books and talking

about cards and and it's like okay if it makes you happy cool I guess. But there's always there's always a part of me that's like dissatisfied like like I I do like my daily affirmations of like I I don't I don't need to do Anything today for Andrew to like me. Like I'm enough. like I just I have to sit in that and I was like no I gota and and then I I got it from you know it's like we talked once on the phone before I showed up today and you've sent me a

mountain of this yerba mate this delicious matina and I'm like that's I [ __ ] like this like crack to me now and I'm like oh this guy I don't know is sending hey can I get some more of that and I told you I was starting to get Sick and you're like oh I'm going to send you some peptides and I go what a sweetie and cute and like awesome and very handsome And like the your shirts, the way they fit every time. I'm like, "Dude, you got some guns and like the clothes look

good. I'm jealous of your posture." Um, and I just go, "Oh, this guy's a caretaker." Like I haven't I don't even [ __ ] know the guy. And he's sending me like I don't know if peptides a drug, but he's like, "I'll Help you, Dave. I'll send you these experimental medicines and this." And I go, "Thank you. But also, you don't need to do any of that. You like I just wanted to meet you." And >> but to be clear, I I know I don't have to. It's in my nature to want to care for

people that I I I feel loved towards. >> I I know, but like we just met. And I'm like, those things take time. And then you're like, "No, I Got people to do that or whatever." And I go, "The cost I'll speak for myself. The cost of that at some point is you, right? When you spend so much time thinking of others, you know, and so and it feels like against how I was raised. [ __ ] this feels selfish for me to, you know, like I never took a, you know, at at at the

height of my workcoholism. I was touring with my band. My podcast was was DVDA was, you know, which I did with Asa, Porn Star, and Bobby Lee and Steve Lee. It it was becoming like the biggest, you know, it was there was no one doing podcast back then. It was Joe, um, Adam Corolla. I'm trying to remember. It wasn't that it wasn't what it is now, you know? And so it was it was insane like because I grew up on Howard Stern and I'm like just hearing him fight like you couldn't say a certain thing

and and then he'd get punished by the FCC and then someone Was like, "Hey Dave, you know what a podcast?" I sounds weird. What's a podcast? And they and talking about terrestrial radio and the FCC and rules and and I was like it's a new canvas. I was like, you could you can say anything. You can [laughter] [ __ ] say like you could [ __ ] cuss and tell like the worst story like and I I just I couldn't believe that it existed. I couldn't believe and so you know and I didn't like come

in with a Mission statement and I know intention is huge and part of it was I was just running and running but now in hindsight I go what was that? And I was oh shame chasing. I was like, how can I be as how can I record the downfall of me? Like like like how how much can I go over the edge? How much can I push up against this boundary and see cuz let me see if you care. Right? First of all, I was like no one's listening. Turns out it was a lot of

People listening. But I didn't know that at the you know we started I was like let's just let's just go let's record our downfall. Let's record our bottom like as an addict like being being how like I'm chasing shame like I'm like in a way it's like this like someone who's like a flasher. They're like what kind of person gets off on like running down the street. I was like that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to I'm not a mentally well person that I'm Dealing with demons inside me that I don't know how to articulate.

So I'm going into workcoholism. I'm going and I'm trying to find myself and find out what I'm trying like I don't and it's just so painful and I I I feel misunderstood and I go let's just [ __ ] say the worst possible things every episode and and make fun of it like a joke and it's just like I mean it once again if I look back and I go What's the worst things that ever happened to me? Jail like getting cancelled multiple times. It's like all of it led to the best moments of my

life. So I don't sit here and judge, oh, this was good, this was bad, cuz good moments lead to. It's just life, right? It's fluid and it's there's a spectrum of good and bad. So, I remember just there was so many I'm like doing this podcast and in my Mind I was like like and and like having Howard Stern write me that going on his show and him telling me afterwards in private, dude, you're out of control was the greatest compliment. You know, Howard Stern, the the despite, you know, the king of all media telling

me and I asked him on the show if he can adopt me and I'm like, I'm the prince of all media. I [ __ ] do comics and I do fine art, I do graffiti, I do I can do anything, you know, and to have that Validation and and you know, we don't talk regularly, but you know, I started sending him watercolor stuff and then he got into water and he's [ __ ] really good. Like he like everything he went into it and so that was and then at at one point I was talking

to his producers about being on on Sirius like right after him and I was like there's like Jane Cho was right. I am the greatest. Like, I can do anything. And then, you know, people started listening and They're like, "These people are saying the worst [ __ ] ever." And I was like, "I know, but I'm just I like don't they know I'm a comedian? Like, you never told anyone like and that's not funny, but whatever." I mean, it I shouldn't have said like a lot of the things I said. And I never gave I

don't like as an artist I don't like expl like like here's my black penis I painted on the wall like I I don't I paint and I do stuff but the the mistake that I made Was words like in the spectrum of entertainment and art everyone watches movies and video like that's up here so that's has the most eyeballs on it. Then you go all the way down to at the time podcast art gallery. Nobody you do whatever you want. No one cares. And so that's how was I I was approaching it. And people go

when you paint the most [ __ ] vile, obscene, disgusting [ __ ] It's still a painting, right? But when you say stuff, People take it literally. Like you're coming at a microphone like um like it's an ABSOL [screaming] Oh [ __ ] I scared myself. Um, that was so good. I love that. Oh my god, that was felt good. Uh, that was a good scream. That was like your punk rock. Someone sampled that, turned that into a punk rock song. Um, but I I treated it like it was just another, you know, I I

was it was Sean Parker. I'm not blaming it was these people in my life that I Witnessed as successful. They didn't take reality seriously, right? I'm like, I don't care what I'm going to say. I'm gonna push it as far as I can because I don't care because I don't respect reality. I've never have like you saw you [ __ ] believe in Yes. Yes, I believe. Look into my eyes. I believe in Santa Claus 100%. There's no part of me that doubts that. That's who you're talking to. A mentally ill pe person working on

himself trying to express Himself as you know like a perfectly imperfect unre repeatable miracle of the universe. That's how I I I'm trying my best. That's it. That's it, you know. So, I meet uh David Chang. I become friends with him. He's like, "Let's go to dinner. I'm going to bring my friend." And his friend happens to be Anthony Bourdain. Immediately, like I've met my my brother. Like, I mean, he's older than me, but it was just, you know, ex-h heroin addict. Got Through it through workcoholism. And I could see that he was tired, you

know? And he had a he had a thing that he kept saying. He's like, "What what's your life? You just [ __ ] watch TV and watch the Simpsons." And you know, he had this story like, "I have to live an interesting life." And he's like, "Oh, I'm doing," you know. So I I I developed a friendship with him because it was just organic. like it Wasn't like oh I want to he he was in a way grooming either Chang or me or Roy Troy I don't know he liked Asians but he was grooming us

to take over basically and um and that that that once again fed my ego of like oh he's he can see what my mom he thinks I'm special like the guy that is the most interesting person on the planet wants me to take over like oh my god this is great you know so he's like my you know, it's like you're Doing, you know, his his show changes. No reservations. It's it's it kept changing. And so, uh, you know, every time I ate with him, it was insane. I mean, I don't know if he had

eating disorders or what, but it's Anthony Bourdain. So, you go in a restaurant and they bring out every [ __ ] food, right? Like everything. And I go, I'm watching him. He takes a sip of water. Thank you. Can you wrap this up? I'm like, you're not going to eat, you know, because everywhere he went, every chef wanted to. And he's like, Dave, if I ate all this [ __ ] like, I'd be like 300 pounds, you know? So, I'm like, can I can I take it home? He's like, yeah, you could have it. And

then as I got to know him a little better, every time he came to LA to stay at Chateau, Mormont, I'd be like, "Is your life just eating at restaurants?" And he's like, "Yeah." I Go, "Hey, from now on, just come to my house." My mom's like, he's like, "I would [ __ ] love that." you know, he closed his eyes like so whenever he'd come to LA, he would go to my mom's house. My mom would my mom loved him. Like Tony and my mom were she he I don't know what his rel relationship

with his mom was like, but he loved my mom and he'd always he knew culture. So he'd always bring the Asian pairs, you know, he knew like, oh, I'm going to a Korean's house. And then after a while, like when I meet people that I love and I respect, I I value the friendship. So, I don't go and that doesn't mean I don't value you. I was like, I would love to be friends with you first before doing your podcast, but I was like, [ __ ] it. Like, let's just jump into it. But, >>

we'll do it in reverse. >> Yeah, we'll do it in reverse. And same thing, like I never asked to be on a show. I never But after a while, he just Was like, Dave, I'm doing LA. And I go, but haven't you done LA? He goes, yeah, but this specifically Korea Town. And I go, okay. I mean, I grew up in Korea. I was born and raised in Korea Town. But um so then his producer, his production company 0.0. I loved it because when I did Thumbs Up, I'm everything. I'm the director. I'm the production.

It's just like Thumbs Up is me, my friend Harry, a camera guy, and like a chase van. That's it. It's four people. But you know, I Was like, "Oh, this is like what a real TV show is like." He had guys setting up shots and it was like a lot of people. And I go, "Oh, [ __ ] This seems cool." Like you don't have to. So he go so his producer calls me and goes, "Okay, we're going to set this show up for like two months from now and um it's Korea Town centric like

and I go okay but do you want to do fake?" Like I'm I'm down like what what do you guys Need? Like do you like I know every all the restaurants and stuff in Korea Town now, but I grew Koreans don't eat Korean food. Like from my era we didn't have any money. So when we go out we eat at Sizzler, we eat at Denny's. We don't eat, we get Korean food at home, you know, like. So if he's trying to do a authentic story about where I eat in Korea, it's in Korea Town, it's

Sizzler. And like everyone, every Korean-American I know eats at Sizzler. And so she's Like, "So you're telling me we're going to bring Anthony Bourdain to, you know, spend all this money to take him to?" I go, "Hey, I just told you like I'll fake it. Like I'll I know all the new spots. I know all the chefs. Like we couldn't but I didn't eat that [ __ ] growing up." He goes, "No, Tony loves authenticity." I'm like, "We're going to [ __ ] Sizzler then." So, we do this whole episode. He comes to my warehouse

and he's Like I mean pitfall after pitfall like it's I remember at the time Channing Tatum came to my like he's like uh his agent this guy Bill Korean guy Channing Tatum's agent's Korean and he calls me and he goes, "My client Channing Tatum loves you." And like it's like after all these things and getting cancelled over and over again in comics and whatever field I went in, there was always you're not supposed to do that. You're not supposed To paint on a Mike Tyson card. You're not supposed to paint over this graffiti. You're not

supposed to there's rules that you're not following. And I'm like it was this my my whole life. So I remember Channing Tatum was also attracted to that. and he showed up with with uh his agent and he's like he had just done he was a pretty boy he's one of the hands most handsome guys but he's so talented and I'm like I don't [ __ ] want to meet Channing I don't care about Channing Tatum and then he came to the warehouse and he's like don't think of me as just like the pretty boy dancing

step up from the streets guy like I'm about to do GI Joe but like I'm like and I I'd put out zenes and like self-published books and I write the way I talk right now and need read that and I was like Channing Tatum read you know he goes you're a great writer and I'm like there it is again I'm like I write porn he's like no no no you have a way Of talking and writing that I need to be a part of that like whatever I go but I've never written a script he

goes whatever you write I'm going to produce it and I go holy [ __ ] dude this is amazing and then like I don't know I'm time jumping but at some at some point I got a little cocky and he put out uh 21 Jump Street which Johnny Depp again you And I said, "Uh, there's a Ice Cubes talking to Korean Jesus during that movie. Do you guys still have that Korean Jesus?" He's like, "Oh, yeah. We made that for the I go, if you guys want to work with me, I need that Korean Jesus."

So, they sent me the Korean Jesus and I I put it in my warehouse and I pray I prayed to it every night. I prayed to Korean Jesus. And what else? I mean, uh, because of all the cancelling, it's like if I get canceled at Marvel, then DC wants to work with me. So, it's like once again being rewarded rewarded for The bad behavior. So, there's this editor at DC Comics. Oh, cool. I can't draw Hulk and Wolverine, but Batman, Superman. And he, this guy, Axel Allonzo, who worked at uh Vertigo, which was like the

more adult like do Sandman and stuff like that. He contacts me and he's like, I've been reading your [ __ ] [ __ ] up articles and Vice. He's like, you're a writer. I go, that's the thing I have the most respect for is writing. Like, I have a book in me. I've Never I haven't sat down, but it's like it's in here. I'm too scared to to to get it out. But he's like he's like, "Yeah, your art's okay." Okay. And he goes, "I want you to write a book about, you know, I it

was like Korea Town Gangsters or And it was [ __ ] that I didn't know about." I was like, "Fuck it. I'll I'll make it up." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to write it like this." And he's like, "No, you're going to write it and someone else is going to Draw it." I was like, "Oh, okay." But he was like, "And then I I started writing it and and uh I I start writing him emails like it's it's it's done." And you know, email bounced back. He quit and like moved to Marvel and

I'm like, "Ah, oh [ __ ] it was almost about to happen again, you know, and then um and then uh my podcast starts getting bigger and bigger and I'm so I'm I'm in my full workaholism. Um, I I I've I'm I'm aware that I'm an addict. I'm like I'm in my Full addiction. I'm gambling with my life and life savings every single day while touring with my band Mangi, doing the news for Vice, doing art shows like legally around the world and doing illegal like just and people are like, "Are you on Coke?" I'm

like, "I don't have chem. I don't do I get high off like I and each thing is like I have to do the I I'm not enough. That's what I believe about that's what I did believe about myself and still sometimes today is I was everything the world had shown me is that besides from my mother is that you're not and that was also confusing because she sent me away and abandoned me. So it was like you're telling me I'm the best but then you threw me out like trash. So, a lot of mixed messages

and and and and the messaging that I heard growing up that I received was you're not enough. You're women don't date Asians. Your art looks like [ __ ] It's you're not following the graffiti rules. Your art's a little too aggressive to be refined for. It's just everything is just so everything had to be I need to be it's not it's not like I can kind of be in this field like I have to have the best podcast and in my mind that was Howard Stern. So I was like however extreme he is I have

to go like Howard's the ring leader but I need to be the guy that's the you know and I I don't care What happens to me because I've had third degrees burns all over my foot. Like my brother's read my diary. I've been stabbed in my like I don't care what you do to me because it'll never be what I can do to myself. I've hurt myself. So So then uh I'm in Russia or the North Pole interviewing. It's my first time doing the serious news and I remember at the time Shane and Eddie and

everyone at Vice we sat Down and they're like, "Dave, your podcast is out of control." It's like and they and like they all know me. They're like, "You you can't say those things." I go, I can say what the [ __ ] I want. I'm like, this is Vice, baby. Like, we did. They're like, Dave. And and it was like second season of Vice News on HBO. The first season was Dennis Rodman in North Korea. Getting a lot of attention. We start getting Emmy nominations. And the year that we did It, I won the Emmy

for the news. I'm like, you know, my ego is like, "Oh, the first time doing the news. [ __ ] nailed it." And I'm like, "I'm God, dude. I can do serious news and I could do weird butthole talk on this show and I could do serious [ __ ] delicate watercolors that could be in a museum and I could do the most craziest like you can't [ __ ] put me in a box and if you try to I'm like I am better than you. I'm better than you as a human Being. I'm better

than you as an art. And it was like my friends just like cuz it's easier when you're an alcoholic or drug addict. You're like bro you're unhinged. You're out of control. But it was just narcissism, hating myself, self-destructive behavior, just and the g the people would come up to come with me. I'd bring them to because I controlled my addiction. Like I would I knew that I had a problem. And I know The nature of addiction is you can't stop. So I did something that I've never heard another addict do, which is I would hire

people, close friends, being like, I'm an addict. I cannot be trusted. I'm a liar. I'm a thief. And so when I'm in my gambling gambling state, I don't hold my money. So as soon as I'm win, the number I told you I'm win, need you to punch me in the face, I need you to drag me away from the table because now I'm going to say anything to keep Going. So I can never touch my own money. If I if I if you see me falling in love with the girl and going into my love

addiction, I need you to come and punch me in my face. And like I gave permission for people to hurt me physically and to physically remove me. It's like like if I was an if I was an alcoholic it would be I'm at a bar and after two drinks if you see me take a third boom and drag me out of the bar. So in that way Very sto masochistic but successful like I never cuz I had someone and I and they would only get paid if I they got me to stop right but then

I would pay these people to stop me and then try to figure out ways to you know so at the height of my workcoholism is the height of my addiction. Like I got every I I don't sleep. There's days and then I had a heart attack when I was 35. An angina attack. I collapsed. I went blind. I collapsed. And of course, like a lot of Stories, as soon as I I didn't go to the hospital. As soon as I woke up, I was like, "What the [ __ ] was that?" Like I woke up

30 hours later, another day, and I just went back to gambling. But it was like, you know, I I could go into euphoric recall and just start telling like, but I I I don't want to like glamour because it's like I figured out how to how to be in the world. >> If I have sex with lots of women and win lots of money and work really hard at All these jobs, then I will be validated and and congratulated and held up high in this culture. Even though if I'm dying inside, I need to go.

I I've spent so much time in shame. I need to go that I want to see what it feels like to be like a winner, you know? But then that's when I got there, I go, what do you do when you get to the heavy is the crown? It's lonely at the like I got to the top and I was like kind of boring. Let's the kid in the village with the match. Let's Burn it down. We got here. It's like and that was my childhood literally. I would spend a lot of time building giant

Legos with all the loot. Like we had like all mismatched Legos that was like, you know, handme-downs and I would build a giant starship and my brother would come in cool and just smash it. I was like, I worked so long on that. But that was me doing my brother is somewhere around about to destroy my career. Let me just do it myself. Let me self-sabotage Myself. Self-sabotage. It was like mini suicides, you know. And so it's all I'm like here here I am. It's all it's f I'm finally gonna be, you know, validated as

a human being, you know, and then I get uh, you know, I get Vice telling me, "Hey, you you can't do your podcast and the news." I go, "Then go [ __ ] yourself, you know, and then we win the Emmy, but I'm not part of that anymore." And then and then uh I can't keep track cuz I keep they're like, "Did you know this Artist got caught on saying I go, "It's on my podcast. IT WAS MY PODCAST." YOU don't [ __ ] It's not like I I did it on purpose. Uh, you know,

anyways, it just kept happening and I I'm at the sickest I've been mentally and I'm trying to make sense of my situation while the world is also has its own issues. And I and I I just I like I I hit my bottom. I just went so off the deep end. And my friends were all like, "You're going to die." Like It's not like a to normal OD with drugs, but you you like literally had a heart attack from like not sleeping and gambling for like a week straight. Like masturbating non-stop to pornography. Um just

like video games. Like I couldn't stop playing Angry Birds, which like everything's like so I can make a joke out of it. And they're like that's your safety thing is to like make a joke out of it. And so I walk in to, you know, a meeting and and and uh Channing Tatum's dude is like, "Channing ain't [ __ ] working with you." And it was it wasn't him. It was like, "Hey, I've spent all it was the agency." He was like, "We've spent all this time building up a heartthrob teen idol thing. He's not

going to be [ __ ] seen with a scumbag like you." I go, "Oh [ __ ] it's happening again. Shame." I walk into 0.0. Bourdain's like, "When I'm done, it's you. You're gonna here's a book deal with my publishing company. It your show is going to be on CNN. It's going to be exactly like mine but with art. Like you're going to travel around the art and it's like authentic to you because you already do that. Um I'm just like, "Holy [ __ ] dude. This is it paid off. All the bad behav like

I met my kindred spirit and and I knew he wasn't happy. That's one of my I can't watch like it's been years since since all that happened and I still I can't I can't Like I felt I felt like I met someone who finally understood me. So I know it wasn't him but you know I don't remember the guy's name. I remember them and they could have told me over the phone. They're like Dave. It was like getting caught at the principal's office. [snorts] It's like and I'm and I'm pumped. I'm like my mom was

right. Jane Joe was right. Like the the most interesting man on the planet like my friend Tony is like Handing you know handing me the baton like and I'm I'm going to do like I'm going to go for it. Like I wasn't married. I didn't have kids. I'm like I'm going to [ __ ] really really like I took it so seriously. went to Nat Geio went like took all the meetings and uh you know I remember sitting at a table just like this and the the whole 0.0 production team is like we love Tony

like he goes but we are not working with you and I go you couldn't [ __ ] send An email like like what are you shaming and and all of this is fuel for me like they don't know this. I'm like, the more you [ __ ] do this to me, the more I you're giving me my drug, which I'm chasing, which is anger and shame. It's a [ __ ] powerful drug, right? And I go, "Oh, okay." Just another on the list that I got to prove wrong. Like, I will make you regret the

same way Chip regrets [ __ ] talking. Like, I will make you feel you come at Me, you better [ __ ] kill me cuz I'm going to [ __ ] destroy you now. like I am gonna make the most awesome show ever. And you know, Tony called me an apology. He's like, "Dude, I don't like they're their own company. Like we work together, but they, you know, they the optics aren't good." And I go, "All right." You know, and I was like missed it by that much. Like, [snorts] so it and and and I

I had grown accustomed to it. like this was is not a News. It's if if I I could just keep telling another like oh and then Marvel rejected me, then DC, then the episode I did with Tony, I take him to Sizzler. I show him how I [ __ ] did a fusion with a meatball and a taco. It was true to me, right? You know, I hammed it up a little bit for the camera. I rode my wore my like shiny red sizzler suit, but that was me. That was how my family and it

resonated. It was The most watched episode. Like I introduced him to Estavon Oriel and Mr. Cartoon. He loved all the low rider cars. It was a [ __ ] LA episode and it was like my friends and it was like >> it was awesome. I felt so good and I just started getting like Sizzler asked me to be their spokesperson >> like and the the episode is me talking [ __ ] about how horrible their food is, but it has this I'll do it guys. I'll do it. >> And so they're they're you know they're

they're like it's the most watched episode of that. And then we won a Emmy for that season and I'm just like and then that happens and I'm like holy sh like and then you go on Netflix or whatever it was on and that episode's just missing. I mean it's back now but they took it off and I was like just keep striking you know and I'm like what did I do? You know like me playing Vic like what did I do? I did I do that? Like I'm like like you're a [ __ ] idiot

dude. You do dumb [ __ ] that you shouldn't do. you should shut the [ __ ] up and just and um when I meet uh the most powerful intellectually like just these powerhouse humans once again doesn't always have to be sexual abuse but it usually is with men right I mean women I don't know that experience because I'm not a woman but for a man to take your humanity like That then I see cuz it's uh PTSD it's right post-traumatic stress disorder but And every now and then, like I don't know what the exact

stats are, you get PT, I'm making this up, PTGD, post-traumatic growth disorder. It's like that should have turned me into a drug addict, homeless person. But instead, I took all that pain and I was like, K rage, I'll show you. I'll [ __ ] show you. You should have never done that to me. >> [snorts] >> You should have never you should have never minimized me and put me down and disregarded. And now I have to teach you a lesson. Now I have to show you who you're [ __ ] with. [laughter] And it's such

a horrible >> [laughter] [sighs] [snorts] >> It's such a [ __ ] It's such a painful Way to live life and I I I can't live with that pain. So, I have to just keep doing more. It's never I have to just keep showing you that I'm enough. >> [crying] >> So then I'm just I I I'm living in like a very I know I'm telling a very named dropppy like douchy LA story, but you know I have Anthony Bourdain who's I consider a friend and my hero and my idol. Like I Was in a

gang called Koreans God Bad. That was two people, me and my friend Harry Kim. But we wrote it everywhere. KGB everywhere. And then I remember the episode came out and he wrote KGB forever or something like that. Korean SC. I was like [ __ ] my gang is Harry Kim and Anthony Bourdain. Like I just I was like it just it made me so happy that it's like Tony Bourdain is repping my set, you know? Like like I'm a [ __ ] G, you Know? was like it was two [ __ ] dumb asses just

riding drawing dumb bucktooth tooth whales and I mean I miss that guy so much [snorts] >> the people that were close to him like you and Joe besides the same response >> always [clears throat] >> so then I I'm you know I'm like lost I'm I'm I'm getting closer and closer to hitting my version of a bottom and I get uh I get a call from David Arquette, like The actor, you know, and I I love all the Arette, you know, but uh David, you know, this is LA [ __ ] right? He just reaches

out and he's like, "Hey, I am watching TV right now with my I think fiance at the time and we just saw your Anthony Bourne." And he's like, "That's the most [ __ ] LA shit." He's like, "I wrote I was in a a crew called KGB, Kids Gone Bad." And I was like, "No, Karine's gone bad." You know? Um, and he goes, "It's crazy. Like, I'm in I used to do Graffiti and tag. I used to write KGB and I grew up eating at Sizzler with my family." And he goes, "And I'm turning I

forgot." He was like, "I'm turning 45 or 50. I forgot how old he was, but it was like a big one, like 40, and [snorts] I'm having it at like the, you know, Sizzler's almost out of business. I think there's like three left in LA." And he's like, "And it's at the Sizzler that I grew up, and I would love for you to be here." And uh All all that stuff always all like weird celebrity stuff always makes me nervous because I'm like I don't know if they're going to be fake or you know and

I'm a sensitive person. Like if I'm meeting new per people and they don't like me I'm like oh I'm a piece of you know I I'm sensitive. I'm a sensitive artist. Um so I go to Sizzler with my friend Critter. I was like hey can you come with me? and and we get to Sizzler and it's packed and It's there's the buffet bar with the cheese toast and [snorts] he's like, "Dave, Dave, I want I want you to meet some friends here. Come sit at this table." And I sit down and it's Sasha Baron Cohen,

like my [ __ ] hero and Peewee Herman. And I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] dude." And you know, both of them are just huge art fans. So like they don't know my art, but you know, David Art talked. He's like, "This guy's an awesome artist." And they're like, "Oh, cool. we want to check it out. And um so you know Sasha Baron Cohen like collects a lot of Banksy and this and he he's like [ __ ] dude I got to come to your studio. I got to you know so then I'm like oh

cool like once again like this oh people like me and if people like me then maybe I like myself you know like [snorts] and it's it's nice it's nice to be liked. It feels good to be validated and liked by people that You look up to, right? So especially Peewee Herman's my art god. Like I said, Bob Ross, Mr. Rogers, dope. But for me, that's what I grew up on. That [ __ ] car, the full commitment to that character, the voice, the king of cartoon, Penny, the stopotion animation. [snorts] I just he's it spoke

to me, you know? Uh all the Gary Paner art. So, um I go, [ __ ] I don't know how when am I going to meet this guy again. I go, "Hey, uh, I don't know, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, you did a movie called Blow." And he's like, "Oh, yeah, Blow." You know? I go, "Hey, uh, did you ever remember like getting a porn package on your step?" And he's like, and like I'm trying to read his eyes. He's like, "No, I don't remember that." And I was like, "Ah, I guess someone, you

know, uh, but I did get his number that night." And then um you know as I get I hit like like I wouldn't be here today without my Friends just all who love me came and they're like Dave you're not like it it went too far this way you know you used to be this sweet nice humble guy and just you just you need a lot of help. So I like everything else I just dedic I stop I obviously it was the hardest thing I ever did in my life but including plant medicine therapy rehabs

men's groups 12step meetings just I whatever if someone said it was going to help you I'm like you're just breaking Like generations of all [ __ ] Asians hit their kids all you know everyone got sent away every you know just like I I know but I I want it to stop it's either I [ __ ] kill myself or I need I needed to stop and enough people caring about me made me care about myself enough and I and I did what I got to the podcast the band like the people and they go

they'll be fine everyone's going to figure it out And I and I got help and um you know as soon as I was out of the first rehab like 45 days I was like I'm going to do a podcast about this and they're like Matt out there he's just like hey uh why don't you live this life before you start telling he's like but I learned so many go yeah but why don't you implement it in your life and so I'm 49 now I rarely do podcasts I still do something creative every single day I

Like to do it with other people I I've I've re you know I'd like to thank the sponsor today for this God you know I know people are like oh you're all you're religious I I don't, you know, I don't believe in God, but I still pray to him. And like God, whatever you want to call it, the like whatever that is, whatever that thing that controls telepathy and Santa and connection and all this, he doesn't care if I believe in him. He's still there, right? It's like such an ego thing like I don't who

cares what you the thing. It's like saying you don't believe in the ocean. The ocean is still there. So I want to thank that guy and um and so as I live this life and then I start to be like what is my purpose? Why am I here? What is you know before your art was about like disgustingness and offending people and it's it was just a [ __ ] you. Just showing people hey Asian people aren't All quiet like you're a rebel. Like show like you're supposed to shut the [ __ ] up and

become a lawyer or a doctor. Um, and it just like I I always tell people they go, "Oh, how do I make it? I want to be I go I'm an expert in disappointing my parents. You must disappoint your parents." Like my dad is so disappointed at me over and over again until he's not. But I'm like, what would have happened if I didn't disappoint him? I would have got a Pretty high SAT. I would have, you know, probably been on my second marriage, lawyer, golf, like, and he would be like, "Ah, I don't know.

I I don't know. I But I I know that he's proud of me now." And it was like a long hard path to get there. And so, um, I go I and part of me, you know, if you can't tell by now, it goes like this. The pendulum swings very hard. So I I said to myself, I'm going to like everything up until now has been About look at me, let me show you. And it's like and I go, it's it's I got to take some space for me now. And and and you know, I

work with all these youth groups and stuff and people go, "Hey, you know, you did a lot of media and you did a lot of [ __ ] where you put yourself out there, showing the worst part of yourself and sh and like trying to prove to people that you're not a good person." like, you know, it would it would like touch people and help people To see like your journey and your path. And I go, "Fuck that. I I'm not going to put myself through that." Like, I'm taking space. And they're like, "Yeah, but

like at some point, are you going to share your story?" And I go, "No, that's too literal. I hate words. Words can be confused. Words can be misconstrued. I'm not doing that. I'm just I'm just doing this and this is enough." Like your ego goes, "Oh, I'm working with 12 kids today." but if it was filmed, it could Reach millions of people and it's like, no, you're working with 12 kids today and that's it and that's enough, right? Um, but then at some point after year, this is years, a decade of recovery. Um, I thought,

well, part of the reason why I hate working with not and like Netflix, Hulu, HB, it doesn't matter like they're all corporations. they could be cool or whatever, but um and even podcast, which was that's the conversation we had. I'm like, it's All gets edited. It's like as soon as anything gets a little and so I go, I'll just make my own show cuz I have money to do that and it's not going to cost that much. And then if someone wants to buy it, they will or they won't. So, I started making my version

of Peewee's Playhouse, which was um The Cho Show. and it came out on FX on Hulu and and I got to learn what taking notes and having, you know, corporate feedback and whatever. I'm grateful that it happened, But they killed a lot of the episodes and um and then everyone's like, "What's your who's your dream guest?" And I was like, "It doesn't matter. I'll talk to anybody. I'll talk to like the garbage man. I'll talk, you know, but they're like, "It's for TV, so you should try to get some celebrities or well-known people." I was

like, I I want Peewee Herman, you know, and uh I had his number still from Sizzler. So, I called Him and I, you know, and Peewee Herman's like, I don't know if he's just one of those people that once he gets your contact info, you get a birthday message from him every year or a Christmas card. I was like, it just every time I got it, I would send show all my friends. I'm like, it just made me feel so good. Um, so yeah, I have those emails that Sean Parker said about like what he

wanted for my art to disrupt the world. I have The nice message from Howard Stern and I have the the voice. So I I called Pew and he's like, "Dave, I got some stuff some health stuff going on." And and uh and he's like, "I feel honored. Thank you." Like, you know, I I love your art. You know, now he got to learn a little bit about me and he's like, "And I would love to be on your show, but I just I don't I don't want to be on camera anymore. And and he's like,

you could send the episodes and I'll I I'll give You some like if you're open to it. I was like, of course I you know, and um and it was just it just like I couldn't I couldn't believe that I was talking to him and he like was talking back to me as a equal. And then uh I mean but I got it right away. He's he's not going to do it, you know. And then at the end, right before I hung up, he goes, "You paint butts really good." [laughter] Oh man, he got it.

He got it. And I, [sighs] you know, he's like, I'm I'm old. I don't want to talk on the microphone. [screaming] >> [laughter] [clears throat] >> Um, so I don't know if that as answered your question about um the South Bay. I know that was a long answer for the one question you asked me, but [laughter] I don't know like when people like I feel like you're an open person. So if you ask me something I'm like and you're ready to go into my head space and and we can go there together then I feel

like cared for listened to and like I'm like cuz you know you listen and they're not present they're looking at their phone they're like okay this show's two hour and I'm like I got lo you know and that's also how I write very long runon sentences no punctuation Um so there's no like creativity is such a hard thing to have a conversation about because it's not like my my path is not someone else's path. And um and today it's just every day I wake up which with what I didn't have before which is gratitude. I

just wake up and it's like I I had a horrible day today. Like it was not good. like the [ __ ] like flat tire, uh, appointment cancelled, moved back, [ __ ] crazy family [ __ ] happening with my dad. And I was just like I I wasn't going to cancel, but the feeling was like that's not this not the right headsp space to go. And then I said, you know what? every like I could sit there and like self uh analyze, oh, you have depression, you have this, and it's like almost some weird

OCD like and you're a horrible person and you and you you have Antisocial traits and and they go, okay, and then what are you going to do about it, you know? And so I I sit back now and if I examine my life like a scientist, I go, "Hey, uh what was What was what was was all that [ __ ] about on your Why did you say that stuff on your podcast? Why Why did you like do that thing that's against your value system? Why did you What was about the [ __ ] like

all the suicidal ideiation, all the times you try to like What was that about? you know, and not just like I said, like logically, I know if I sound hypocritical, not just trying to like analyze it like but just an examination of my my own heart, like doing an X-ray of my heart. It's like what what were you feeling then? And what why like what is the shame hitting and why did you do that? And like so I sit there and I go we live in a soc I'll use eye statements. I live in the

way the Culture I was grown was the when someone asks you how you're doing it's just good okay which aren't emotions that's all you say you don't go oh let me tell you like I'm feeling shame today and you know so we live I live in I lived I was raised in a culture of everything's fine everything's okay get along to go along you know I was a lot of like Asian only Asian family in like a white neighborhood or black neighborhoods was Like Don't. It's a lot of immigrant story, right? Like don't rock the

boat. Don't do anything to stand out. We're guests in this country. We're lucky to be here. Don't do basically everything I did, you know, like, you know, keep clear up the campground. Leave it nice. And so I sit here and if I'm being introspective um this is all this stuff is like this is why I say this would be intimate because this is just private stuff that I don't like I'm trying to just you know know my own heart. So, it's like what? Why? What is the insane opening Pokemon packs about? Like, right, you could

turn that into a joke or like what is what is the unmet need? Like, what is your depression telling you right now? What is your anger tell? If your anger is like unmatched with like, oh, there was like a little flare up at school. Some kid Said something to your kid and then like your response is like like what's that about? So instead of shaming myself and going, "I'm a piece of [ __ ] Oh, I did all this work and I and I'm still this." It's just and I think if I can get quiet

and right-sized in that moment instead of, "Oh, I need to like make a story in my head to be like and just just sit in that ugliness and uncomfortable like if I can do that. I couldn't do that before. I can't Like you have to either look at me like I'm nothing or I'm the greatest. I can't just, oh, Dave's kind of boring today or he's kind of not making sense or he feels like I couldn't. It had to be all or nothing. It was very black and white, very Christian the way I was raised,

OCD, like God's way or Satan's way. And so now I just go that's [snorts] that's PaloAlto. If I could find the PaloAlto in my heart, just like the mundane culturally, like if I could sit In the boring mundane space and I dare to be mediocre, dare dare to be moderate and and just like like I'm like I said, the feeling is like, oh, what's what's the sensations? And I could then that's where the brilliance is. Then I could find my inner spark. I could find and and and and then in that is when I feel

the closest to you and other like if I'm with another person who's close is like just like banging my head against the Wall but if I can meet another spirit or soul and you're it doesn't have to I don't have to agree with you but it's like you're I don't like I've been talking my ass off. I understand that like we could we could go all night, right? And if you share with me your heart, then it's [snorts] a shared brokenness. You don't get to where Andrew Huberman doesn't get to this with a smooth like

[ __ ] went down. I don't know, but it's on your face. And It's like a vibrational thing, right? Like you don't you don't [ __ ] tattoo your whole body if everything was cool, right? You don't just become as smart as you are without like if you want to destroy me intellectually, you can. Like I wouldn't I wouldn't I would be like like right. So if I can sit in and be vulnerable and sit like hey I'm not perfect but I'm not a piece of [ __ ] I'm enough like I don't need to

do anything today. And and that's for me that that Was like like these cultural moments of watching Outcast be inducted into the Hall of Fa fame and Andre 3000 going I'm not gonna rap but everyone wants you to. That's not where I'm at right now. I'm just going to I was like [ __ ] amazing you know or uh Tarantino saying Paul do this like the worst part of there Will Be Blood. I was like wow that's the best thing that ever happened. You saw like everyone come out to say how brilliant he is. I

mean, what if Tarantino just Said Paul Dano is amazing? Then that would just So I just I just find these like what is um without trying to like psychoanalyze or overanalyze every moment of my life, just go the space, right? Because I I've done the brain mapping and they're like the way it was explained to me, they dumbed it down. And they're like, "You're not a psychopath because you do psych you do psychopathic things, but you actually care about people. >> You're not a psychopath." >> And they say the the space in your brain, there's

like a bridge like here's reality, you know? It's like it's like should I jump off this cliff? And like most people will executive function like, "Oh, okay. Maybe I'm gonna get hurt." And like that that bridge is smaller for people like you. They saw like a little they go. So you don't really think you just do and then that's how you you're like how did I end up in Jail? How did I [ __ ] like and and and that makes her a great story. That makes for a great [ __ ] life or like

a storybook crazy life that makes for and and that's a a story that's just told like you need to be a [ __ ] psychotic insane crazy person to be the greatest artist, right? If you're just like a, you know, boring person living at home with like air conditioning and Wi-Fi and your warm cup of Earl Grey and you could do good art. You could even do great Art, but you won't ever be the best cuz you're not you're not facing your shadow. You're not looking at yourself. You're just that's just technique. That's just craft.

That's just skill. Like I'm ripping my [ __ ] heart out and showing to you and like what do you think? I'm not saying what do you think? I'm like [ __ ] what do you you know? No, I I feel it the I mean I feel it. >> Okay. >> You know, I mean I I um >> Sorry, there's like spit all over the table. [laughter] >> Please don't apologize. Don't apologize. I No, please don't. >> I'm slobbering right into your microphone. >> No apology. [screaming] >> YOU guys [laughter] almost got me there. No

apology. Um I feel it. I mean I I um I feel it and and everybody feels it. And um if they don't, they should take a look inside. Like We're we're we're >> it's going to sound like I'm name dropping now, but go ahead. Go for it. >> I'm very I feel very blessed >> to have Rick Rubin as my close friend, right? >> Not cuz he's Rick Rubin who produced all this music. That's super cool, too. >> But because he has antenna >> and he can feel [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> And he

can feel it, but he doesn't get Absorbed in it. It's very interesting. I don't have that. >> Yeah. >> I feel stuff and it it like the the it just >> Yeah. >> And um I I am certain people feel your heart in what you do. The self-sacrifice part is hard to hear about. I can relate. >> Well, I I I talked to Rob a little bit because he's Like a PR dude before >> was a PR. He's like a producer. >> I mean, he's out of it. That smile hides a lot of pain right

there. Look at that smile. But uh yeah, I Yeah, it's hard. Like, you know, they say these all these like dumb quot like no is a complete sentence and it is right. I go no and then I have to make up some fake like oh but like I got you know I I my car did get a flat Tire but that was a that used to be a thing I would make up and then people would be like let me see the metadata metadata on your phone and make sure that's not a screenshot from like

two years you know like um so I would lie and and make up excuses but the the ability to it goes against how I was raised. It goes against my culture to just say no to my parents, no to jobs, no to think like leaving money on The table, saying so that I could put myself first for the first time and and nurture my own heart and take care of myself is like it just sounded like that's I I'd already written my story. And like you know and then when you have heroes like Bourdain like

I think a lot of people also killed themselves after Bourdain did that cuz they're like if the most interesting man on the planet the guy that's a role model a guy I look up to like he's not he can't [ __ ] Figure it out then [ __ ] what's there and and then almost validates it like it's so you can do it too like anyone like uh so I it was just it just I had it written out like everyone I look to look up to and it's so [ __ ] boring and cliche

when I think about it makes me so angry. It's like you know live fast, die young and then just have people say nice [ __ ] about you and it's like or just be a little bit more boring and have wonderful relationships like I You you call me and you go you're probably busy. I'm like I'm not that busy, dude. I'm not a busy person. I make a lot of space for myself now. I don't like I I and I deserve it. Like I I I owe that to myself. >> Yeah. I was about to

say you've earned it, but you never needed to earn it, >> you know? Yeah. >> I'm glad to hear it because um >> Will you commit to taking a year off? >> I could use some time off. >> That sounds like I'll start the negotiations at a year and then if I can get you anywhere close to that >> cuz people will be like, "Oh shit." You know, like the American vacation is like a week or two weeks, right? That's nothing. That's like barely enough time to >> Yeah. I have all these war stories. I

don't want to make this about me, but I have all these war stories like, you Know, my girlfriend at the time, she'll validate these as, you know, being, you know, diarrhea and vomiting while writing a grant back when. And, you know, I mean, if I I've had so many wonderful opportunities, but I've been going pretty hard into the paint since I was 19. Like, that means non-stop. That means like 50 to 100 hour week since then. >> Like what's the longest vacation you've ever taken in your life? >> 4 days. >> I mean, this isn't

me deflecting. It's just like I I just met you and like I'm I'm so happy that like I was like if I can if he gives me the space to speak what you did and you can feel what I like what I was trying to say and like to me like that's all I want is connection, right? like that's I I want to be seen now. Before I was hiding and wearing masks, but in that I felt you. And I go I I Didn't know what you were going to say, but I was like it's

going to be less than a week because you don't get cuz I know you don't get to where nobody does. Everyone pays the price. You don't get to where you are right now by taking time off. You just don't. But like you just said to me, I'll say it back to you. You deserve it. And I I and to speak to the workaholic part of you and I say this to people that are like you and me, You will have more ideas, more inspiration, more like you you can't think now because you you're thinking about

how's Rob going to get paid. How's the because you take care of a lot of people, right? But in that time, I could come I could get rid of all this black. I could make add some color here. I could get you some white t-shirts. You could spend time with your family. just the [ __ ] that you're running from, you know, and I feel like, Okay, a year is unrealistic. You're like, I'm running a, you know, but it's it will like people, oh, go do plant medicine. And I was like just taking a year

off and first weeks or months will just be you unlearning the workcoholism of just I got to do something to have value and it's just um and I feel like it will when you come back you'll be like like a thousand you know like and sometimes in our culture we get knocked Down not by our choice and then but I'm like this would be by your choice you I I taking care of Andy today. Love you, Rob. Love you all you guys out there. But you know, you know what? I'll run your podcast while you're

gone. >> That would be >> I'll do all the science. I'll You could feed me some big words to use. >> But um >> and I'll go paint. >> Oh my god. I'm going to Yeah, I feel more comfortable with you now, but it's like like I think I would lie to you. Like whatever whatever you showed me, I would be like, "Oh, that's cool." But like I think it's cool that anyone who's a egghehead who spends time up here. I think every thinker needs to spend time playing music or painting because it's just it's

the opposite of that, right? You're using the other side of your brain. But It sounds like the way you're painting is very in your head and I would just rip you out of that. And I it it would be very uncomfortable. But then you could see the kind of like life, right? You just see throw [ __ ] at the wall and see what sticks and and and through that. It's about control, right? I had I had to, you know, and part of being in 12step in recovery is like and You know, and and the

wisdom to know the difference, you know, the thing the serenity prayer is I had to like you can't control mother nature. You can't control a fire. You can't control what other people are going to think about you or say about you. You just can't. You could try to let me write a paper and like so that and and and yeah, you could do that for a little bit, but it's tiring and it's exhausting to try to get all these people to Believe what you know, like and and and so I Yeah, I just it it

it it's anti it goes it's anti it goes against to to the word winning and the win surrender, right? Like the I win every day because I surrender constantly now. And part of that I got to still fight because it's like you sound like a loser. Why you giving up, right? It's going [ __ ] shut the [ __ ] up. Pick yourself up by Your, you know, bootstraps and get back in, you know? Like that's how you become the best. Like all the other artists, they're like dealing with like you don't have kids. You

don't get married. You [ __ ] paint. You go to the art store, you buy all the paint up. You [ __ ] keep painting. You steal all the paint. It's like just keep painting. Never stop. And it's all going to be worth it because one day you're going to die and then Legacy. But now we see legacy is nothing, right? I get I get in an Uber, get in the car, [ __ ] smells like Teen Spirit, right? One of the greatest anthems ever. Guy in the car, 27 years. What's this? >> Well, I'll

tell you. >> You don't you don't know [ __ ] Nirvana? Okay. Have you seen Good Fell? Like whatever. Whatever. Who's the Godfather? Like go down the list. the greatest. >> Nobody cares, >> right? The great it's over. >> The greatest sign. >> So, it's just this. It's just this. This is all you have. So, you've done enough. People [ __ ] love you. They You've helped so many people. And I want you to take one year off. And I don't care if people are like, "Fuck that guy. That guy helps me every day. I

want to hear his soothing voice every night." But I'm like, "AI, bro. Just use AI." No, I'm Kidding. I'm just saying I would love whatever you've been running from. whatever you've been doing to like you help a lot of people but do you help yourself on that level and it's like yeah um starting painting that's taking care of your like it's not complete all or nothing but someone like you and other people like you are not going to outsmart the feeling right you're not going to outrun the pain and it's like like I don't know

What your father was like I don't know what your mom was like but they're proud of you like you don't need to do more. Like they're proud of you. And and like if you go to what I said, the only way to really make them proud is to disappoint them. You just got to [ __ ] Andrew, I'm really disappointed in you. Then you know you're doing something right. You know, um sorry for talking over you. >> No, I was interrupting. >> What What are What? Like your face says a lot. So, I just want

to know what you're try to um >> Well, the part about legacy is where I was interrupting, but it's not I let let's let it pass because it Yes. And yes, the legacy thing it it um >> it's nothing. >> It's nothing. Um and >> like I've done I feel like I've done so much in acting like I've done all these things And people are like, "Who's that Chinese kid?" I'm like, "It it doesn't matter." Like, >> well, they don't say >> it doesn't matter. Like, you do all this stuff so that you have something

to leave behind. And I go, "You just have this. You just have like right now today and that's it. And like we're gonna we did this today and then and then it's off to the universe. I I can't control what people are going to think about me. And it's like I came here today with my intention of meeting you, telling you how you make me feel and how like how much I appreciate you. And I did that. So that's it. And that like I have no ill will. I'm not trying to like Yeah, I probably

talk [ __ ] about a lot of people right now, but it's like fine. Okay. That's that's my and I I should probably just let all that stuff go. But to tell someone who's used to winning, who's fought like tooth And nail for everything they had to fight and like prove people wrong over and over again to tell someone like that, hey, just surrender. It's like [ __ ] you, dude. You don't like you don't tell me that. Like um so yeah, that journey from head to heart is it's a big one. And that's why

the like you can't say that to everyone, right? because they're like, I got to [ __ ] But I'm like, I I don't know your financial situation, but I'm like, I think you Could take a year off. Like, um, it's not for But but that's the other thing, right? Like, it must be nice, Dave, from your perspect. And I go, >> I was homeless. Like, I've lived the worst. Like, >> like people for like I know I sound defensive, but like I've I wasn't born rich. Like, I worked for this. So, it's like must sound

nice from a rich guy's perspective. And I go, if if I think back to my happiest moments or even just My most creative moments, it was always less. It was never more. Right? So, when I lived in a tiny house, that means less doors to open, less walls to we're living together in a, you know, and it's [ __ ] cold, but at least we got body, you know, I'm making it sound like, uh, you know, like we're we were okay, but I'm like, we didn't have that much. And it was it was great cuz

we had each other and and I think back and I go, "Okay, Creative output. Let's go to work." You know, let's go back into my head. I go, "Oh, every time I had like a Renaissance level creative explosion, there was no Wi-Fi and there was no heater. It was always freezing. There was cold." Like, you're talking about deprivation? Yeah. like and then now like it's just it would be with my uh attention sp it would be impossible for me to get anything done if I didn't go out of my way to block all my electronic

Devices. I I couldn't do it. >> My social media is on a separate phone. It goes into a lock box that can't be coded out >> to get work done. >> I mean what I hear Well, first of all, I I want to be clear that um >> I don't need an answer from you. I'm just throwing the the challenge of the gauntlet down. All right. >> I would love for you to take one year off as someone who I just met who I care About. And I like um we're humans, right? Can't just run

forever. Like there needs to be a recharge, a refresh. Like there's just things that I I that you get offered. I guess you're like, "I'm never going to do that. >> Why don't you Why don't you go to this retreat and just work on this part of your heart or this part of your uh journey for a month?" you're like, I'm not going to [snorts] [ __ ] do that. And it's like, but why not? You deserve It. And it's going to be hard. It's not like a fun vacation. And like for me, the way

I think about it is part of part of like what because I take podcasting so like I'm it does I I try to manicure how I look and sound and I do a lot of re people and I try to make it look like I didn't, right? Like before I go on Joe Rogan or Howard Stern, I like I I call up people and I [ __ ] do like I talk for 12. I go, "Is This work? Is like and then I come on and I try and and that's fake." And it's been years

since I did a podcast. I was like I I I'm getting like a very genuine feeling from you and so I don't want to do that today. And I was [ __ ] that's why I was puking. I was scared. I was like, I'm just going to come in and I might say something that like [ __ ] me up cuz it has so many times, but I'm just going to be the truest version of I guess I could That was scary to me. That was like really being naked. Like I I like to be

prepared and I like last night it was late. I couldn't sleep and I was like, "Oh, [ __ ] I can't believe cuz it's like I live a quiet p like I don't and I was like, "Oh, man." Like It was like, "Let me like like not like you're the enemy." I was like, "Oh, I'm going into enemy territory. What if he has like a gotcha question like I have to have a, you know, like it was it was Like I was at Vice again. You know, Vice was so much riffing and witty comebacks and

I was like, "This is exhausting." And I was like, "But can you just go and just, you know, and I realize it took me like two hours to answer like one question, but that's I also accept that about myself, you know. Um, but yeah, I started like I started I Andrew Hub and then it was like you're it finishes your name and All and I was like I'm not going to do this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to just [ __ ] read about you all night and then like have come

in like prepared. >> Great. [laughter] >> Great. >> I was like I just >> I'm so glad I'm so glad you abandoned that. >> I did. I did. I said just [ __ ] told >> Dude. >> Yeah, >> man. I'm so grateful you showed up here that in that frame, that no frame frame. >> Yeah. >> Um [clears throat] I know as soon as I start talking, if I say anything kind about you, you're going to get that thing. But I'm just going to tell you it I'll tell you. >> Um I'll prepare. I'll

say there are a couple reasons you're here. Some of them I touched on earlier. You're amazing Artist. You're amazing person. But the main reason you're here is because a long time ago I saw you at a meeting >> and I learned from you there. >> Oh. >> And I was like, you know, I would like to be his friend. >> Oh wow. >> And I know I can learn a lot from him. >> Oh my god. >> Uh so without getting into any details About that. >> Yeah. I mean you can. I don't care. >>

Well, maybe another time. Um >> I told you, >> you know, you've helped me. You've helped me a ton. I also um like I have this model in my head, maybe this is the the scientist in me where but I feel like you've made yourself like the anvil, the hammer and the metal like all you like you and it's like this cycle of the the opportunity to do Something to feel something and then you know I guess my friend Ryan Suave was right. He said, you know, people get addicted to shame. >> But to me,

it's the whole cycle, right? But the thing that I >> I really want you to take in is that people learn from what comes out of your mouth. >> They don't they like yes, the stories are interesting, infinitely interesting and entertaining also. And yes, you have A gift for storytelling just like you have a gift for art. But it's, you know, people learn. And you know, we touched on Bourdain, who I didn't know. I know you and Joe were both close to him. >> I know a couple other people were close to him. And you

know, I'm not here well on a public service campaign. That's not how I do this podcast. I'm only here with you right now. But you know, there are a lot of people offing themselves. A close friend do that recently. A very Famous scientist that appeared to have everything this kind of thing. And it's happening more and more. And I think that when people hear you, when I hear you, I know what people hear. They feel you >> and they hear the extent to which yeah, there a lot of hard stuff and great stuff happened, but

>> you're still here and you're still going. And that example is really, really important. Well, I don't want to I don't want to be a surviv, you know? It's like I'm a survivor because I survived all this stuff, but so did everybody. And I'm not trying to like And but you're still going, >> but I don't want to survive. I want to thrive. >> Right. You're a th That's why I think of like u Korean Jesus or Peewee Herman and I go, it was like I try to keep things light and entertaining. It was a

lot. It was really painful, right? If if if you Get it, it wasn't easy and it wasn't easy for everyone. But so then you go, well, will you work on yourself? Will you do this work? Will you go to a meeting? And it's like, are we having fun yet? Right? It's like >> it's a lot of [ __ ] pain and work to just be, you know, and the question is like I want to put is like, are we having fun yet? Like isn't aren't we supposed to have fun? Like, you know, my son wakes

up every morning laughing. I Go, "What the [ __ ] is happening up there? What is like I I can't remember the last time I woke up smiling." It's like, [groaning] and I'm like, "Oh, if we can remember like I like it was dumb doing the secret word, but I I loved it." Like, are you guys scared the [ __ ] Like I I you know, and it's people uh you know, trigger warning they did like there's a lot of people killing themselves like on an epidemic. men. Like I don't know that many women but

a lot of men >> and mostly men and so powerful [clears throat] tool >> cuz because I've done so much reckless [ __ ] I It's I'm a miracle that I'm here right now and I'm not saying that to be like oh I just I could have been dead a lot of times. >> No, I think God's been looking out for you. >> So I say to myself without a grandizing Myself or being on like some guru messiah type [ __ ] It's like so I I made it through that. I am having fun despite

how much uh I cry and stuff, but even that like I I wouldn't I would be called a [ __ ] and all that if I did that. And I go I just allowing myself to feel everything and and and so I I I learned this tool called just play the tape out, right? So you go, if you're an idiot, you're an idiot. But If you're have any level of intelligence, you go, "Well, how do you think this ends for you? How do you think this drug problem ends for you? How do you think cheating

on your wife ends for you? How do you think non-stop g like it doesn't end well?" Right? That's one of my favorite things to tell my friend. Ah, it's okay right now. It's mad. I go, but addiction and and it just it just escalates. It doesn't stay. You don't just kind of get like and then Someone like me, it escalates very quickly. So, it's dangerous and and and an addiction loves novelty, right? So, if if someone's sucking dick for crack in an alley right now, that little boy, he never he wasn't a little boy when

they go, I hope I do that one day. That happened. Started with weed, then it went to coke, and it just escalated, right? He wasn't like, I want to do degrading acts that I don't want to do for drugs. But it escalated and that's On the addict side, but I just found myself having a lot of I sw like weird broken promise. I swear I'll never do that. But then I'm like here I am in this weird place doing weird [ __ ] that that's going against my value system. Here I am. Oh, I'm chasing

the shame again. So, I know this is kind of hypocritical cuz I'm I'm applying logic again, but if you just talk to someone and you use this tool of, hey, you're not an idiot. Play the tape out. Your Your behavior that's like chasing a bottom or destructive or not that destructive yet, but it's on the path and you're like, yeah, I'll be all right. It's like just play it out. Like, how do you think this ends for you? Right? I go, I need to go back to podcasting. Right? And I and then I go on

these podcasts and I go, "Are we having fun yet? Are is it like you seem like you got the weight of the world on your shoulders. You seem miserable. You Seem like you can find like I'm not It's just like in general I don't find podcasters like happy people. It's just it's just like a it's just like I go so when are like when like you know and oh cut let's go. is like a [ __ ] sponsors like I got to [ __ ] the numbers are going down this and I'm like can we

have fun like is it only about making money and just it's enough like if if and it's it's it's because we live in a society Especially if you live in a city where the messaging from billboards to social everything is telling you from the second you wake up it's not hundreds it's thousands of messages telling you you're not enough Right. And so I do the brain mapping. I do all and it's like, "Wow, Dave, you're really hard on yourself. You say so much. It's it's it's it's like if someone said that to my friend, I

would I would do something." So it's like a Lot of punishing like selft talk and then it feels gay to say I'm enough. I'm you know it's like that's that again. Why why do you have to say it like that? It's like, oh, I'm worthy. I am a good person. I am a good father. I am a good friend. I am a good brother. You know, it's like this sounds like just self-help, but I'm I was able to brainwash myself into believing I'm the best artist in the world till so why can't I brainwash myself

into thinking I'm a good person? So then I I go when I meet people, I want to say nice stuff, like real stuff, not like that's how I feel. And it's like that's weird. I don't want to just tell someone whose shirt fits good on him. But it does. I mean, even for black it does. Um, so, so the tools is like, >> you know, riding with deodorant, like a thick white chunky deodorant, just so I see it. So, it's in my psyche cuz it's every day it's billboards of Good-looking people and I don't look

like that. And so, the messaging is all [ __ ] up. And unless I'm just going to say, "Fuck all internet and just move to the African wilderness," which I might do. Yeah. Just write on the wall, "I am worthy. I'm enough." And I see it every morning when I wash my face. And it's just like I'm starting to brainwash myself. It's like that's one tool is like telling people I love and I care about how I feel about them. Not till They're dead, not till it's like they're in their bottom. And I'm like, "Hey."

It's like I tell them every day cuz that's that's that's all we have. And then I say that about myself and then I can catch myself like that bridge that was like basically like a suicide bridge. It's like reckless behavior, reckless irresponsible behavior, immature behavior. But all of this [ __ ] is hard because I'm coming at it with generations of a story that says you Need to stay sick. Like when you hear Kanye say bipolar is my superpower. Like there's a part of me that's like of course. And I I like my artist [

__ ] up. The more [ __ ] up you are, that's true genius. That's, you know, and I go, you know, I have friends close to me that go, as someone who's as creative as you, as so you're so like boring and small thinking when you just buy into those things. It's like like is there anyone who lives a moderate life, just a Regular does everything doesn't have to be jumping on a train and like that is doing great art? And I go, show me an example. There's and I go, but couldn't you be the

first? Well, there's ego and narcissist. And it's just like just and then okay fine let's just go let's go with let's play that tape out. Let's just say for you to make the choice to be a normal person you're never going to have the best podcast or the best art. You're just going to be kind of like Right there 70%. What's wrong with that? You know but that's not that's going against everything right. So, I have to It's hard, you know, and it and especially something with art where it's in there's just people that are

like, "You're literally doing the worst art I've ever seen in my life, you know? I wish, you know, it's like, oh, their first album was good type [ __ ] you know?" And there's part of me that's Like, "Yeah, this earlier stuff had more angst and way more detail and more labored over and the stuff now is way more looser." And but I love it now. like I like I like myself how I feel and it's it's very rare that you have it's you know the whole lonely at the top that you have the these

champions people that are like the best at what they do the top 1% of the world champion of this this that you meet them and they're just like a Content satisfied happy they're just miserable and you're like what was the point why why and and it's either where you you have the courage through yourself and friends to to make that change. Like I I'll if you take a year off like we're going to hang out a lot like we're going to paint. We're awesome incentive. >> Like we're going to do all that but it's like

like it's always like you got to do It alone. That was my message. >> Like sh like shut the [ __ ] up. Don't complain. Like very Asian, very Korean. Like don't say anything like someone [ __ ] treats you like [ __ ] Keep your head down and just it's all revenge is a dish best served coal, you know? Just [ __ ] shut. Don't ever let them know, see what you coming, see how you feel, and just your your your revenge is success. Like just like that guy treated you [ __ ] at

work, then just become the Guy that owns that business and then fire him, you know? Like um Oh, I'm so [ __ ] glad that guy Chip got fired. That felt so good. [laughter] >> Chip sounds like an [ __ ] >> He was such an [ __ ] But I So you just I I have and those things all these tools are like, "Okay, cool." They're all simple. Okay, wake up every day and say I'm a good person. Yeah, it's simple, but it's hard. It's not easy. You have to like work at it. >>

Yeah. Like, oh, get up every day and do 100 push-ups. I could do that, but I don't. But you could. It's like, but you care about >> your physical health, but why wouldn't you do that for your mental health? What your spiritual health, you know? Oh, I'm not religious. is like spirituality is it's the ocean. It's the universe. It's it's a power greater than you, right? So um so I yeah that that Playing the tape out is a very valuable powerful like I I need to take action in this way and and sometimes the action

is to do less and it's to do nothing where everything growing up was do more and I was going to say am I making any sense but through your face I could see that I I feel like I I feel heard and I feel understood in this moment which is very special to me. So, thank you. >> Thank you. You are absolutely heard and you're absolutely understood and I'm very grateful to you and um I know everyone listening is too. The um permission to tell oneself and feel that they are enough is that's oddly the

hardest thing. But the encouragement is is heard. It lands. >> I think also cuz I talk so much about shame and I and I'll I'll end it with this. It feels like a is uh hope and faith is also a very Powerful drug. And sometimes like like I said with my mom or me believing in Santa like there's no logic in that. But um you know entire wars and nations are fought over faith and you know and um I I feel like because I'm sensitive and I'm empathetic to everybody that I meet that it feels

like a really hopeless time and I feel like that's why there's a lot of self harm and depression and um so it's like weird. was like, "How would you be hopeful in a city like LA where There's like 70,000 homeless people, like natural disasters, drug epidemics, you know, just all this shit?" And it's like then to to you know, to to to brainwash yourself like if cuz it's that that's what the connection is like if I don't believe it to find to go out there and meet someone in real life and say, "Hey, I'm having

it was like the hardest thing to do. I was like, I need help right now. I can't It's like weird to admit to someone that I can't do like I can't I can't even come up with one nice thing to say about myself. Can I Can you say something nice about me? Well, that sounds very egotistic, but I I need that right now. I really don't like myself right now. And to have someone say something nice and you go, "Okay, maybe tomorrow I'll be able to say something nice about myself." And then you're building [clears

throat] Something called hope and faith. And so I I don't know. Um I told a long Peewee Herman story, but at the end of that I was like, what was that? It's like, okay, that's resilience, that's taking chance, that's believing in yourself. But but I never gave up hope, you know? It's like and it's just and that's delusional in a way, but that's Like how like if you take facts and numbers and it's like this is the end of the world. This is like AI is going to kill like all this [ __ ] doomsday

post-apocalyptic. It's like I don't need that [ __ ] dude. I don't watch horror movies. I don't surround myself with like that's fine. Like that's everyone do your own thing. And like I said, you know, we were both like, "We like punk, but we don't like hardcore." Like, I used to love hardcore because it's I Needed that. I needed to hear that message vibrationally and spiritually and sonically to go like, "Oh, that guy's singing at a frequency that's resonating with me." It doesn't now. And I [ __ ] hated Ree my whole life because those

people were happy. And now I listen to Reae, you know? I go reae on the river, whatever, you know, like. And I'm just like, you know, and I immediately judge. What the [ __ ] Can't believe you're [ __ ] listening to reae. This is like stoner music, but it's res the frequency is hitting me now. So, I can be appreciative of hardcore music. But um yeah, I I if I look back and I go, what what was that? What the [ __ ] was that? It was just screaming for help, lost and hopeless. And

I just go, hope is a hard thing to have in a time like this, but not if you ask for help, not If you reach out, not if you connect with other people. And that is going to be impossible to do if you don't. You need to, now I sound like I'm a [ __ ] know-it-all, but it's like you need to deprive yourself of electronics. Like it has to happen. Like you can't have real emotion if you're watching TV or your phone. Like it's the only way. Like anytime it's like a secret language. Anytime

I'm out and someone has a clamshell phone or a flip phone, a Dumb phone, whatever, a brick phone. They have whatever you call it. I give a wink. I go, "Yeah, cuz I know I'm like this guy, he's he cares about himself." Cuz you can't I got to [ __ ] like No, you don't. You don't need to know who's being murdered on every country and what are you going to do about it? Nothing. So, I believe I have faith that we're all here for a reason. And and uh and to anyone listening and I

Don't I don't know when this is coming out and I didn't know I honestly didn't know I was going to publicly come out about my belief in Santa Claus, but it is the season. Is this going to come out soon or after Christmas? Okay, just try it on. Just just like I know it's stupid, but just believe in Santa. Like all the I know kids already do, but any grown-ups, bitter jaded adults listening, just just try it on this this year. Just and if you need, you know, he Can teleport. He's a mutant. He has

special abilities and he knows if you've been naughty or nice. So yeah, I don't I don't know. We could I could like this is the problem because where we're at now is when I would start like I'm this was like the pre like when I used to do my podcast DVD I say we this be like oh it wasn't a podcast because it wasn't a conversation it was you talking the whole time and we're 3 hours in and then and be like okay now let's now let's Start let's get ugly and real and be like

nobody likes to talk for nine hours dude I'm like I do so I'm gonna Uh, I feel like you'd be down if we wanted to go six more hours. >> Easy. >> And we could maybe do that one day. Um, >> we should. >> But I feel like I don't know. Am I Am I You know what? I'm surrendering. I feel like Unless you have more [ __ ] to ask me, then I'm down. >> Oh, man. I uh in the uh language of uh meetings and other things, I I think uh for now, >>

yeah, >> we're complete. >> Thank you so much, man. Thank you. >> Thank you. That was so I mean I I feel good. >> I feel good too. Very grateful. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining me for today's Discussion with David Show. To learn more about him and his work, please see the links in the show note captions. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zerocost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on

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