Courage to Be Honest - On Stage with Ricky Gervais

Foreign [Music] welcome to the Poetry of reality podcast if you're hearing this it means that you're on the public feed you get episodes a week late and you hear advertisements and get access to the subscribers feed by going to the Poetry of reality.com and becoming a supporter with immediate access to each episode and no ads You can also support me by liking and subscribing on YouTube and sharing my podcast thank you so much for your support I'm a huge fan of Ricky Gervais he's a wonderful spontaneous irreverent comedian after life is deeply moving tragic comedy

and Derek is wonderful exhibition of his Talent as a writer as well as an actor so I was delighted when the center for Inquiry in America decided to give Ricky the Richard Dawkins award for 2019. the ceremony took place in a London theater I made a speech and then we had an on-stage conversation which was chaired by Richard Wiseman I thought it was a lovely occasion and I hope you will enjoy it too when you listen to this recording I'm sorry to say I hadn't seen any of Ricky's wonderful shows and I met him for

the first time it was backstage in a London theater where the comedian Robin ince had organized an alternative Christmas a Christmas for atheists I was one of the many performers and Robin had lined up some really big names as well including Ricky Gervais as one of the star terms I was astounded by the audacity of his act it reminded me of a New York Times review of Tom Lehrer that wonderfully witty American songwriter and performer The New York Times said Mr Lara's Muse is not fettered by such inhibiting factors as taste well Ricky's Act was

like that only more so I found his script literally shocking and I don't shock easily naturally this Drew me to him how I asked him did you get away with it he admitted that he was using the atheist audience as a test bed to try out ideas and see just how far he could Go before subjecting a real audience to a more generally acceptable version he was he was pushing the envelope I must rephrase that he was using the atheist audience to reach way outside the envelope in order to calibrate where the bounds might be

for an ordinary dare I say less interesting audience I next met Ricky when I interviewed him for one of my channel four documentaries We pretty much agreed about everything um some people think that makes for bad television it's not exciting the public want disagreement well I've never thought that agreement can be interesting as well as verbal fisticuffs it doesn't have to be tame and Bland and I need hard to say there's nothing tame or Bland about Ricky Gervais his comedy frequently gives offense not least in his splendidly irreverent takedowns of Hollywood celebs in his Presentations

of the Golden Globe and and things like that if there was a Golden Globe for seeing how far you can go and just getting away with it Ricky would win hands down and he's so witty and entertaining with it more recently I've binge-watched his various drama series The Office Derek extras afterlife and what I've learned is that he's a truly great playwright and actor As well as a stand-up comedian the character of David Brent in the office is so sensitively written I found the embarrassment of it too near the bone almost couldn't bear to go

on watching like like Faulty Towers but I also admire perhaps my favorite of all his shows is Derek where Ricky plays a supremely kind and gentle half wit it's a it's a piece of acting genius but he also shows his writing genius as for Afterlife it almost had me in tears it's so movingly clever Ricky is not just a stand-up comedian not just a great comic actor he's an outstandingly creative writer as well like Woody Allen except Ricky is capable of playing more than one character I'm going to end my acclimation of this witty hero

of atheism and reason with a quite long series of quotations from him because I think they're so wonderful on life and death It's a strange myth that atheists have nothing to live for it's the opposite we have nothing to die for we have everything to live for it's amazing life there's so much to live for as for death he said that's the best thing about being dead you don't know about it it's like being stupid it's only painful for others [Applause] the doctrine of hell is one of the most Evil things about both Christianity and

Islam at least it is to the extent that people really believe it but as Ricky points out a Christian telling an atheist they're going to hell is as scary as a child telling an adult they're not getting any presents from Santa another wonderful Sally remember if you don't sin Jesus died for nothing on morality and the Absurd myth that you Need religion to be good do unto others is a good rule of some I live by that forgiveness is probably the greatest virtue there is but that's exactly what it is a virtue not just a

Christian virtue no one owns being good I'm good I just don't believe I'll be rewarded for it in heaven my reward is here and now it's knowing that I try to do the right thing that I lived a good life and that's where spirituality really lost its way when it became a Stick to beat people with do this or you'll burn in hell you won't burn in hell but be nice anyway and one of the nice one of the things that you'll notice about Ricky if you follow him on Twitter for example is how nice

he is yes he can be cutting in his wit and he can of course give offense but he has a wonderful gentle side as well frequently to non-human animals but to Human animals as well when asked once Whether he believed in God his reply was I believe in dogs as for Twitter itself I can strongly empathize with this arguing with morons on Twitter is like correcting graffiti on a public toilet wall that you'll never need to use again I read that Ricky had an early ambition to be a scientist and his attitude to science seems

to me exactly right of course he wouldn't claim to be a scientist to quote him Science seeks the truth and it does not discriminate For Better or Worse it finds things out science is humble it knows what it knows and it knows what it doesn't know it bases its conclusions and beliefs on Hard Evidence evidence that is constantly updated and upgraded it doesn't get offended when new facts come along it Embraces the body of knowledge it doesn't hold on to Medieval practices because they are tradition And the following seems to me to show an admirably

a scientific attitude to theology the existence of God is Not subjective he either exists or he doesn't it's not a matter of opinion you can have your own opinions but you can't have your own facts Ricky is immensely famous of course and he's very gracious about being stopped in the street and other aspects of Fame but being famous also prompted a Typically witty remark on the subject of the widespread belief that only religious people are moral being famous is like believing in God someone's watching you all the time I've never quite known how to cope

with the retort that it's only extremists who get a religion a bad name Ricky's answer to that at least hits one nail on the head you can easily spot any religion of Peace it's extremist members would be Extremely peaceful literary Scholars have sometimes pointed out how fine can be the line between tragedy and comedy some of the greatest comedians and Comic characters have been close to tragedy Charlie Chaplin Buster Keaton Tony Hancock full staff basil faulty Ricky Gervais is one of the world's great comedians but unlike some comedians he's not himself a tragic figure he's

a happy man With an endearing smile a laughing Court Jester in a dark time he uses humor to lift us all out of desponde other comedians may do that in an Escapist way making us laugh as a way of running away from the dark reality of life Ricky doesn't do that on the contrary he goes right to the heart of the darkness tackles the evils of life and the evil people by confronting them head on and Laughing at them as he himself said if you can't joke about the most horrendous things in the world what's

the point of jokes what's the point in having humor humor is to get us over terrible things ladies and gentlemen atheists and rationalists I give you a great hero of our movement our own witterly creative infectiously laughing Court Jester Ricky Gervais foreign [Applause] [Applause] good night [Laughter] now Richard did you have been all in black that would have looked like a really amazing trick I thought you did have the power of your mind that's amazing um so we're going to chat about uh and I'm going to start off picking up on one of The the

topics you mentioned there which is I think of many people in the public atheists have this um so reputation for being a little bit down in the world and a little bit pessimistic um are you I mean we're living in quite a difficult time in the moment are you optimistic people are you optimistic about the future um well I I don't know if I'm not as well if I don't know um I'm happy I've always been happy I've Been I I have I was I've always tried to get the most out of life it was

I I worked out early on that that was the shortcut I wanted I just wanted to be happy um I did that first and then decided how I was going to sort of make a living um am I optimistic I mean I've got nothing to fear um I I look at this a bit like a holiday we don't exist for 13 and a half billion years then we Exist for 80 90 100 years if we're lucky and you experience everything that it's amazing I mean it's amazing to be alive the chances of us being here

as us that sperm hitting that egg is 400 trillion to one it's incredible that we're here you know and then we die never to exist again you know and um some people even get offended by me saying that they did they say things like um um uh you don't know that no I'll I'll probably live again uh you know some Someone said on Twitter once to me why don't you pray just in case there's a God and I said why don't you put Garlic over your door just in case there's a Dracula [Laughter] with praying

you know I you know I it it doesn't bother me for I've never been bothered by spirituality I don't believe in it but it's I never a personal belief has never been a danger um as I say religion is something else and not even Just religion but Dogma dogma's the is the dangerous bit and it doesn't just really exist in religion it exists uh in more and more places now that cult is in the that which shouldn't be questioned anything that you know that's that's what you want to question if someone says you shouldn't question

this you've got you've got to question it you've got to question it so I think I was going to say that um Thought experiment about the improbability of being here and all and the the chance of one sperm eating one egg yeah and I love to quote a poem by Aldous Huxley I think it's called fifth philosopher's song and it goes a million million spermatozoa all of them alive out of their cataclysm but one poor Noah dare hope to survive and of that billion minus one might have chance to be Shakespeare another Newton a new

done but the one was me The shame to have ousted your Bettors thus taking Ark when the others remained outside better for all of us fraud homunculus if you'd quietly died that's great but I mean I think realistically we probably have to be pessimistic but that's no way to live a life I think you've got to be optimistic otherwise you that you you're not going to have any chance of changing Things to make them better so let I say I'm realistically a pessimist but I I live my life as an optimist right and like Ricky

I'm happy yeah and I don't think it's and I think you if I get it right your question is geared to um either are we are we worried about not existing again or are we worried about how where the world's going well there's not a lot we can do about it either way you know it's not a choice is that are you going to die or live I Probably I'll just live forever which I probably wouldn't Choose Or I would then regret it I think the first million years I'd really be kicking myself oh no

why did I choose Infinity oh there's no way out I quite agree absolutely agree with that what's frightening about death is not death itself it's Infinity it's eternity yeah I want to spend eternity under a general anesthetic yes what's going to Happen that's exactly yeah yeah and and um you know we we don't know we don't know um but um I imagine it's like the 13 and a half billion years before we were born okay and that was fine yeah well um before we started I did put on Twitter a uh a call for questions

how are you asking for it well the first question was to Richard uh actually which is about um Charles Darwin um created the theory of Evolution uh how did animals change before that no that's that's a joke that's a joke isn't it that is you made that up I made that one up I made that one up yeah but listen okay thank you that is a joke but it's no more stupid than some real one okay the the the the one that um obviously everyone gets and I used to be frivolous and I used to

do Not now I just answer them seriously um uh if we evolved from apes why are there still Apes around I used to say things like well if God made man from dust why is there still dust around and things like you know but now I say well we didn't evolve from Modern Age we evolved with modern Apes from a common ancestor rather like and I just answer it deadly deadly serious like they you know it doesn't help then someone someone followed it up with well I've been going to the same Zoo for 24 years

and I haven't seen one monkey turn into a person but I think I think even though that's incredibly stupid we think actually it shows what the problem is when people try and understand it they can't grasp the scale of it they can't imagine these tiny changes no one can imagine 50 million years so they do expect them to the chimp to go come on lad let's get on with it And that's because they also give it a will they think they think even non-religious people are trying to understand they try and think that they the

giraffe was just really stretching his neck you know that's the problem there's lots of little logical problems that hasn't been explained properly but actually it's if I can understand it anyone can you know and Richard you must have been asked many stupid questions over the years is there a standout Stupid question for you yes well the one that Ricky just mentioned but there's also why don't we ever see a crocoduck imagine that well that's a good question great question I would love that I've actually got a crocodile tie that somebody gave me um what imagery

have you got in mind for a crocoduck a a crocodile would be a crocodile that would be angry but he's [ __ ] because he just got a bill yeah that's like my tie yes the implication of that is that there should be an intermediate between every animal and every other animal I think there should be though you can get crocodile well they they they can't see that it's nearly an analog thing as well and and uh I think you've spoken like this before your your amazing model about if you took a Picture of your

dad and your grandparents and their dad at any one point you go they look alike but for some point is a fish you know eventually there's a fish I didn't see that coming but you did do you sue you know it's so like again it's the it's the scale the scale is is unimaginable it's lucky that it did happen because we couldn't imagine it if it wasn't fact we couldn't make that up because it's incredible it's incredible It's perfectly true but whenever I've done that it always gets a gasp of astonishment why I mean everybody

knows where it descended from fish yeah and the way I put it is um if you could meet your 200 million great grandfather you would eat him with a slice of lemon and tartar sauce yes exactly yeah yeah I suppose it is there is the scale though isn't it and um is it true we're closer and I don't I know I know closer is it a non-scientific term but I I I like these Facts as well that go around that we're evolutionary speaking I think they mean in time we're closer to a salmon than a

salmon is to a shark nothing nothing wrong with that all it means is that we are closer cousins that means to say that the common ancestor that we share with salmon lived a lot more recently than the common ancestor that salmon yes sure it shares with sharks yeah so is is a crocoduck possible [Laughter] listen let me ask I'll take this I'm a psychologist so I mean I can answer this one is is that a possibility in a parallel universe oh here we go I did a podcast with Lawrence Krauss and he was definitely saying

things like that to Just Wind Me Up Just when I started understanding it he'd throw in something else I go oh well why are you Doing that well so it is true that when that bill platypuses were first sent back to the museum here nobody believed they were real they if they thought it was a hoax they thought that somebody had taken a duck's Bill and sent on to um some other kind of kind of creature so I suppose that's the nearest approach to a crocodark and that is real but actually because it's an early

monitoring that it produces eggs and milk it could make its own custard but It foreign I mean some Australian mammals it's because is it true that it floated away and there weren't Predators as such so and there were predators actually but they didn't they mostly gone extinct um there was a giant predatory carnivorous kangaroo for example which must have been quite terrifying almost bounding after you With its jaws of Gabe yeah oh that that I we we should bring them back can we I think so yes can we now now you you started it but

turned into an idiot on Twitter no can we bring back the mammoth you know can we because I think we can can't you but I don't know ladies and Gentlemen please welcome would that be the greatest thing ever can we can we bring back the mammoth uh there's a serious possibility um The genome of the mammoth has been Pretty much worked out uh and um the technology to actually bring it back is isn't there yet but we've got the genome and so it doesn't seem totally impossible that you could now what does that mean do

you mean you've synthesized something or you've put together bits of data or the DNA exists and you you found it in the elephant and modified it what does it mean we've got the we've got the I mean you've got the thing that would Make a mammoth if it was well because frozen mammoth uh died sufficiently recently and they're Frozen in in the Arctic so that there's plenty of tissue there you can get plenty of DNA um there's a lovely bellock poem about the frozen mammoth which ends up um I can't remember how it goes but

if if the skin be you it it will make an excellent soup but the snag is it's a skin be butt punctured before it is Boiled your confection is Holy and utterly spoiled and hence on account of the size of the Beast the dainty is nearly unknown but anyway there it is it's it's if you don't know the answer Richard just say so just thank you right you asked for this it's um no you how would we bring it back how could how what is the process what would We do the process is that you

use you use the soft tissues of this frozen mammoth right sequence the DNA and that's pretty much been done with a little bit of filling in with the elephant DNA as well now what we don't yet have the ability to do is to implant that DNA into an elephant egg right then put the elephant egg into a put the elephant egg with Mammoth DNA into a female elephant and then grow the embryo so it'd be it would be a hybrid at most No no no how would you how could you say oh so you'd clone

oh you'd clone them and just use that as a yeah remember Dolly the sheep yeah yeah well it would be that kind of thing so Dolly had it was a sheep egg and into that sheep egg was it was put the DNA of another sheep right and so and if a mammoth baby come out wouldn't that surprise the elephant no doubt yes no doubt like a lot of people have hairy babies Tusks and everything like that yeah well elephants have got tasks oh stretch it's just it's just hairier than this yeah if if could clone

a mammoth would would you do it not clubbing would you would you I would but there are many who wouldn't there are many who think it would be unethical somehow to do this they think um it would be um cruel why would it be cool because it wouldn't Ever be in its natural habitat well understand modern technology it was just on its own I mean if if you made lots of them and there's some people think that we should actually clone lots of them and let them loose on the on the Siberian Tundra to to

um you know bring back the ecology that's that I'd I'd bring back Tyrannosaurus Rex I'd Let it Loose in parts of England to be honest but [Laughter] Atheism so I I can remember and I don't know whether this is any resonance for you at all but I can remember listening to you on the radio and I can't place this I know it's a long time ago and I would think it's after the initial success of the office I think and I think it's Steve Wright I might be wrong and he said something like um oh

you must wake up in the morning and say thank God for my amazing things That are happening and you said why would I say thank God I'm an atheist right and it was the first time I'd heard the word atheist I'm kind of public radio well I mean yeah there shouldn't even be the word should there if people didn't invent Gods I wouldn't have to deny them and it's just but it's like I uh I was told when I sort of started breaking America to not mention I was an atheist really oh first thing I

did I never been first thing I did why what what am I gonna lose imagine not doing something because people hate you because of what you are that's that's you know um that's my only thing I've got I'm a white rich middle class man but I'm at least I'm hated for being an atheist you know what I mean I'm oppressed in 13 countries I'd never go to anyway 20 years or so about how atheism is perceived well I mean you sort of do it I there's part of me that does it because I think I

should that there is someone being persecuted now that might you know um I can't I can't change the world but what I mean maybe someone in a in a western world that thinks they shouldn't come out because it's a bad thing Because it's still a bad thing in Western Society um in America they took a vote uh America right that probably that big bit in the middle of America but um we will vote at least trustworthy group joint bottom with rapists so there's still a thing about I better not say I'm an atheist or annoying

my mum or dad or Grandad or school they're still that so you do that some of it I do it as an intellectual Pursuit because Someone asked me a question I'd rather give the right answer than the wrong answer I'd rather tell the truth than lie because it's easier you know I think the ability people think I run into churches and go it's all [ __ ] bollocks I I I I don't I don't care you know I don't um but if I'm asked if I believe in God I'll say no I mean you know

the tricky one is um um I I did a film called The Invention Of Lying where I did a scene where my thank you seven people saw that film um um where my mother in that is dying and it's because I'm the only person in the society can lie she says I I don't want to go to nothingness and I go there's not nothing this is a beautiful place you go and you're young again and I invent heaven right and that comes from the fact that when my mum was dying I Did face dilemma if

she'd have said you think there's a God that's that's a personal thing and that's a you know um uh so I yeah I um I I try I just try and be honest really um if if someone else is kid five-year-old asked me do I believe in God I sort of think what should I say here and I say well I don't but a lot of People do what do you think you know I try and there's still a level of diploma it's not it's not always my place you don't you know what I mean

I don't um but you know my house my rules if someone asks me someone on Twitter I tell them the truth it's you know and and Richard in the last sort of 20 30 years have you seen a change in how atheism is perceived I'm not a sociologist I haven't done the research I'm not a psychologist so I'm not sure I Would only be a subjective impression um the statistics suggest that we're growing in numbers um obviously in Western Europe um but also even in America I think the number of people who claim no religion

in the United States is now more than 20 which is large compared to any particular religious denomination so I think that the the statistics show that The trend is in the right direction but as Ricky says other polls show that we're down there with rapists in in terms of public I think they have to lump Us in with um you know agnostics which I I again I keep trying to explain that on Twitter that they're not mutually exclusive you know one deals with knowledge One deals with belief and so um you know and people say

on Twitter It's illogical to be an atheist you should be agnostic and I say well I am I am as well um you know I don't agnostic scale on your nerves a bit well um um no because we we're all agnostic aren't we we're all agnostic by definition if if we accept that no one knows knowledge you know I'm being very diplomatic here but if we accept that no One knows that there's a God or not right we might be wrong we're 99 sure you know um but let's say we we don't know we're all

agnostic so take it out it doesn't matter now we ask about belief what do you believe what's your best bet but when someone says they're agnostic isn't it so attempting to go why don't you just think about it a bit more then because it well I just think that there's a there's a yes but there's a Category mistake I some people do do it because they don't want to say it they believe in God you know but if you you shouldn't ask an agnostic if there's a God or not you should ask them do you

believe there's a God or not because then they can't say I don't know because that doesn't make sense well you mean you don't know whether you believe or not right you know so yeah I I think the the really sick making thing is people who think because because they're Agnostic and we can't know for sure therefore the likelihood is 50 50. yeah very different I mean it's it's you know I'm I'm agnostic but I think but I believe that the likelihood is about one percent or less um that that's not really agnostic is it yes

it is yes if we accept that we don't know if it's a default we don't know no one's come back from Heaven no one's proved it you can't prove the non-existence of something and why would You it's a periodic table of non-existent things is infinite you know it's like um so if we accept that that's that's a knowledge that's a category of knowledge but if you just say what do you believe yeah you have to step up like you have to say what you believe and if you don't believe in any God right you're an

atheist that's the other misconception people think that atheism is denying the existence of God Right it's not it's just not accepting the claim that there is a God you know if there were three doors which was that God exists God doesn't exist I don't know that doesn't make sense there's three doors it says God exists it doesn't exist I don't know you not knowing is irrelevant where there is or isn't a god again you've done a sleight of hand there on a category mistake because one is knowledge and two are beliefs right No what no

no there's always I'm saying three is always there if you had to choose one yeah it's um I but I believe there's a God I don't believe there's a God I don't know is irrelevant then isn't it crocoducks when uh so moving on to my uh Twitter Twitter questions um you spoke about lying there uh what's the the biggest lie you've told to impress somebody Is that a question that's been submitted on Twitter the biggest lie you've told to impress somebody it's quite a tricky question actually ah the biggest I've told to impress someone yeah

I honestly can't think of one yeah Richard doesn't think not only can I not think about I'm quite confident there's never been one you 've never told a lie to impress anyone I've told a lie to not hurt people's fear that's different yes I suppose That's impressed them because I want them to like me by not saying so in my exact so can you come to my party I say no I can't I'm giving blood at the orphanage or something no because I don't want to say of course I'm not coming to your party I

hate you and all your friends it would be always so my lies are usually because I haven't got the nerve to be honest when it's hurting someone's feelings they're all white lies yeah okay Um but I don't think I've lied to like on a CV or something I didn't write the question put it back on me anything you want yeah Richard there are three doors I believe in God I don't um I suppose that works if you say which answer sums you up most that's allowed I think well with the three doors yeah there is

no God there is a God I don't know I'd go for there is no God because I'd wanna I'd identify with choosing That door but there's still a category mistake because one deals with knowledge so now the category mistakes you have a background in philosophy of course your first degree is in philosophy is that my only degree oh God your last degree yeah it made me sound really good I could have just nodded yes exactly yeah in fact my first degree was biology which I did for two weeks and then swap to philosophy there were

nine o'clock lectures it was 40 hours a Week I suddenly got to University and thought I haven't come here to learn I've come here to join a band do you know what I mean and so that's a category area philosophy was um uh yeah I did philosophy I got a degree in deposit um MCL have you ever found that useful well only that everything is is useful that you learn any sort of well that's not True is it really um I suppose um a critical thinking is is useful but I think I already had it

or I wouldn't have done science and philosophy so I don't know the issues for London it's nice to know stuff it's fun I mean I take it as one of the best things about being alive learning stuff I want to know everything I'm still in awe of the world honestly I wish this wasn't about Me because I'd be quizzing him he'd get fed up he'd go for [ __ ] shut up I'd be asking him questions all the time you know and if if we turn to your your work for them in fantastic this is

a question to both of you I think I think what's interesting is that your your work is incredibly Innovative so if you take selfish gene or you take The God Delusion it's it's a very it's a very Innovative work and God Delusion in Particular I mean it came out of a time when atheism wasn't a popular thing to be writing about and you went for it the office I mean just phenomenal in particular I mean all of your work but the office we just saw focus on that I where do those ideas come from what

what's the process behind innovation in that well it's very different because Richard's dealing in what's true about the universe and I'm making stuff up so so I'm I I wouldn't put myself Alongside the scientists um um but for me it's uh uh as I get older all I want to be in art in comedy whatever is just more honest and look deeper that's all I want to do now that's all I try and do am I being um is this is me first of all has he been done before that's what you you don't want

to do you want to keep going you know this is new um but um I do want to uh I I'm I am Fascinated with honesty and bravery even something as lowly as comedy I think is that is that is that the best thing to and not without consequence I I think people think that um sometimes uh you're just trying to offend for the sake of it that's too easy that is too easy and I imagine when people say um oh yeah any anyone can just be offensive go on then sell out on Arena and

be effect just be offensive so you know what I mean this ridiculous Thing to say so that's never the aim um uh but I am aware that some people will find everything I do offensive because everyone's different but that's no reason why you shouldn't uh shouldn't say it you know that's that's the good thing about freedom of speech you have the right to piss off lots of people at once is that your thoughts as well and I think that the um to to say that offends me as though that was somehow an argument yeah is

what's Really pernicious and um uh I think Stephen Fry said um you're offended well so [ __ ] what yeah yeah and um Christopher Hitchens said slightly more moderately you're offended I'm still waiting to hear your argument but that's what it is that's what I often people have found out now it's sort of Tit for Tat right Um and uh some some of it was a rebellion against the first wave of political correctness where they said well if you can't do that I'm offended by that now what you know and it was it was but

it's another form of Dogma it's another form of shutting you down um putting the the the suffix phobia on the end of some things that means you can't discuss it anymore and you've got to be very careful about that but particularly in comedy most defense is Taken when people mistake the subject of a joke with a Target they think that subject is a terrible contentious terrible thing to laugh about when I would look at the joke though you know and they don't they go no you shouldn't joke about so-and-so I've been asked by journalists is

there anything you won't joke about and I say is there anything you won't write about because straight away they assume a joke is making fun of the terrible situation or the the victim Or the and and and and I don't do that I actually don't do that which and it's fine if you do I think humor is exempt from those things but I still don't I still have a conscience when I and I try and make my jokes bulletproof now of course you've got to make them bulletproof for 10 years time which is a which

is a problem and is it a question of the audience perceiving where it's coming from in a sense that you know if you're a racist And you do racist material clearly that's a very ugly thing yeah I know I think it's worse I think the actual what I mean is I think people you can do a joke about race without being racist and I think that's I think people think you mustn't joke about race because they assume it might be right they haven't looked at it and uh some people just they just it just scares

people a little bit and some people are offended on other people's Behalfs you see people in the audience looking around thinking can I laugh at that maybe I shouldn't and why and I I that's why I deal in taboo subjects because I want to say well you can laugh at this look here's an example of something you can laugh at and I give them examples and I I almost um uh I defy them not to laugh okay um because uh it's okay to laugh at bad things it is okay to laugh at bad things but

you're not setting out to offend I'm not Setting out to offend and I think the targets are my joke are valid I can defend every joke I've ever made um uh I I could even argue that every joke I've ever made is politically correct but um that's another that's another matter but um yeah okay not that that matters because there's a difference between being correct and being politically correct and and it's been mugged and changed and now it's Um a different Beast than it was you know uh but no I think you're allowed to joke

about anything it's it's what the joke actually is and and sticking with your your work for the moment if there was a weird parallel universe where you could only have written one book or only made one television series or or film which one would you be most happy with I would be most happy with the extended phenotype oh surprising which is which Is the one book I've written for a professional audience although I hope other people can read it as well how interesting type thought you would you would go selfish gene or God Delusion but

oh you've written those as well just to remind you I'm actually I admit pretty pleased with all my books yes I must admit Um but um uh I I think the the the one I think perhaps the one where I made the most original contribution is it is the extended phenotype um I was quite agreeably surprised when you said you thought the god illusion was you know Innovative I'm not sure it's innovative sorry Paul ropes and singing to me it's my alarm clock reminding me to take my pills I love poor Robeson do you need

to take your pills because we can shut off okay fine this is gonna get good see um I think The God Delusion was enormously I mean no one was doing books about atheism at that time as far as I can remember no that well it's not quite true actually Sam Harris was um but um uh and I think but but I mean there's really nothing in Any of our books that's not foreshadowed in say Bertrand Russell um it's amazing why I'm not a Christian and so on um but then you mentioned the self-esteem I think

that that is more Innovative actually and I think the standard phenotype is more so okay I'd probably go with the Old Testament just because of how popular it was and how well it sold you did phenomenally well with that I'd Be just think how rich I mean could I do better marketing and I'd do better deals yeah than those goat herders did I'd have a top us agent and uh yeah I had a um I was listening to a Woody Allen routine uh which is the Vodka routine he said oh I said my rabbi's terrible

my rabbi's terrible he um he's giving a sermon he forgot the Ten Commandments and listed the Seven Dwarfs that was a great joke anyway I digress um so so if if I didn't allow you to Agree that that your work was with the Old Testament if if you weren't allowed to um to go which of your your TV series or films would you go um uh well I mean the office brings to mind again because it was the the first thing I'd try my hardest at and you know um so yeah is it really did

you know the US office I choose laughs Did you know from the the gecko with the office that you've got something very special there um yeah I thought it was special I thought it was different I sort of came to it with a big list of sort of don'ts more than Do's because you know you I I it was very late in life um uh I'd worked in an office for 10 years and I think I was like 38 39 so I knew this was a you know a sort of second bite at the Cherry

so I knew it Had to be special and I was happy with that I could walk away knowing that I'd have done something is it true that when it was exported to America they got a different cast and and oh uh yeah well um we sold the rights for them to do it why didn't they just take your version because there was only 12 and I was too lazy to do any more um and there's a thing over there they want that syndication so they want 100 episodes or something and then the the Money is

exponential because it gets shown in rotation and you know so and they did 300 and something episodes were your episodes shown as well yeah but um it was on BBC America and I think it was the it was the highest rated show on the channel and it got like a million and a half so the U.S office was getting 10 million a week and the Super Bowl episode got 25 million yes so it's a it's a different Beast it's just a each episode we made Ours for about 120 Grand by the end theirs were three

million an episode yeah yeah and so it's just but it's not even it's not even to be compared I I look at it like I sold my DNA but it's not my yeah it's not my kids and I was rather shocked to discover that one of David attenborough's really major series was redone with an American Voice with Oprah Winfrey instead of David Attenborough and I thought that's utter heresy I mean But presumably she just literally over dubbed the footage he didn't go and remake it or with different no difference I think that Steve Carell is

a spider yeah no they just started again just because Americans want things by Americans for Americans ours wouldn't have been big in the big middle bit you know it's it was and it was different it was different they did make it differently it was more um Optimistic thank you it wasn't mine artistically but um it honestly it it was much more lucrative for me than my version you know so someone like someone on Twitter once sent me um the US version of the office is better than yours how does that make you feel and I

sent back [ __ ] rich [Laughter] [Applause] TV obviously Americans buy ideas and remake it doesn't happen with books I mean if someone even American Publishers we love God Delusion we're going to get Sam Harris to do it that that wouldn't really that's true but what they do is change the title right it's extremely irritating um I've I've actually it's called Mega genes I've actually I've actually bought the same book twice because I didn't realize It was and on one of them I saw it you you know on Amazon it says if you like so

and so you'll probably like so and so same book that's right that's a fantastic algorithm because it's correct isn't it if you like that yeah yeah that's great so what did they change your titles did they I've never allowed it but many of my colleagues have had the titles changed right uh and um I find it Unnecessary and um really to have nuisance it it Matt Ridley says it's because the Publishers like to feel important it's the only thing they can do and so I assumed it was marketing like they wouldn't get that title or

certain yeah they call it marketing yeah they call him yeah so in in there we were chatting beforehand um I was checking for some friends and one of the the questions came up about comedy and the fact that We couldn't think of many if any comedians who were religious I'm not asking for example I'm just saying is do we think it's a thing that most stand-ups tend to be agnostic or atheist or I think so I think that's because a lot of comedians um uh are critical thinkers I think a lot of them are science

based um they're intelligent well I don't want to well we ever yeah but then you know a lot of a lot a lot Of religious people are intelligence but they've been they've been got at an early age and it's like um yeah I think they're braver some people they're still a thing of not saying I'm an atheist because they because people think that it's a bad thing to be you know parents still Chris and their kids instead of school because I think it's a respectable thing to do you know I um and I that that's

sad but I get it um There's a couple though there's a couple they don't put it in their act I don't think um Tim Vine is very devout question that's true yes um yeah but in general it they they tend to be I think more skeptical or I I think that's because they are they look at things from all angles and they come up with funny ideas and I um and I I I I look at the idea and I think That's that's what's wrong and that's what Dogma does is that people try and give

ideas human rights so you leave them alone and you you you don't have to you can ridicule ideas without hurting anyone and some people say that deserves a round of applause and uh and they and they found it shut some people up if they say that's her you know um you could be accused of racism or anything if you if you Criticize an idea and it's people jumping in the way of a bullet and saying why are you shooting at me and it comes back to Richard's point that um I'm offended that's not an argument

it's not an argument it's like me being offended if someone takes the Mickey out of maths it's like go on yeah fine yeah do you know what I mean you can laugh at maths it doesn't it doesn't affect maths it doesn't affect Maths and and I I like asking myself of all performers when you you've done a lot of live work when you go on stage before you go on stage do you have any superstitious rituals that you carry out no no really no I'm not superstitious am I is this a trick no is it

if I said yes I'd go down a vault look at this footage and deny it no Um no really no I have I I probably have loads of um uh sort of neuroses and ocds and things like that but nothing based on Superstition it's um uh worrying that are the audience saying is what it was the air conditioning like is it like someone is there a squeaky door it was no ice in the drink someone's putting off there's someone you know um I have all those things but I have no superstitions no would you do

did you mean superstitions or do you mean show Me some performance touch wood or wear certain socks or well I wear the same clothes because I can't be bothered to think about what else to wear but I don't do touch wood okay um no I don't stretch but no no I don't no I just I burned some incense say a couple of prayers um [Applause] that's it really And in terms of changing Minds uh in terms of getting people to be more skeptical or rational or scientific both of you enormously influential but with with two

different ways obviously you're using comedy a lot of the time and you're depending more on factual arguments how does that is is that playing to the same audiences do you think it's equally persuasive well I think which is more driven in his You know thing than I am but um what what do you think about changing Minds what do you think I'm known to be not very good at it um I I tend to just as you were saying earlier Ricky just I tend to just tell the truth and that isn't always the right way

to go about it marketing wouldn't approve I suspect of of just simply going out and and telling the truth I had a rather nice encounter with Neil deGrasse Tyson who Um who said something like um you just put it out there you don't there's there's no Act of persuasion there's no Act of Seduction going on you just you just simply say here are the facts take it or leave it um and I had to say uh I when I said I gratefully accept the rebuke uh but I then went on to say I'm not the

worsted of that and I quoted um Alan Anderson who was then the editor of New Scientist Um who who said I asked him what your policy is a new scientist and he said our policy at New Scientist is science is interesting and if you don't agree you can [ __ ] off yeah yes because that's exactly yeah yeah I don't I don't I I in the greater scheme of things there are probably worse things than people believing in all the different gods um uh it doesn't affect me because I'm because I'm free and liberated and

and Safe and uh but yeah um you can still be annoyed it's ignorance that annoys me more than anything whatever it is it's not I don't want to keep going after religion because that's only one form of this belligerent willful and and it's not even that it's you you can't sort of help what you believe in most people aren't going around thinking this will annoy people I'm trying to oppress People's rights they just think I believe in God because that's how that's how my brain worked when I was little and now I I think yeah

there's probably a God and most religious people aren't crazy there's something else again it's something you know um uh and uh uh we we worry about the people who believe the bad bits in their holy book as well as the good bits most nice people who believe in God they can Tell the difference they do they know the night they cherry pick and they know the nice bits from the bad bits they don't do the bad bits and my point is if you know the bad bits from the good bits you don't need the holy

book you know you're already a moral person and with afterlife which I think is is phenomenal thank you um the clearly obviously you talk about Atheism In in there but it's fundamentally about kindness and living a good life I I think I think it is I think the question is um when you when you lose the best thing about life is it still worth living that's that that's what the question starts with it started with a high concept really imagine you lost everything you wouldn't care about anything you could do what you wanted so that

was the comedic where Did that thought come from I don't know I don't know I think it might have been um sort of two years of um this thing that you that you've got to watch what you say like it wasn't it it wasn't to say the right thing it was to say the thing that was least offensive to most people which is nonsense we'd still be in the Middle Ages we'd still be putting leeches down our pants you know every Every scientist committed heresy at some point every great invention every move forward in progress

was going against some sort of crazy Dogma at some point and um and uh and it wasn't that there was more crazy Mad nasty people around it was that they weren't ashamed of it anymore in the last few years you know um in my day racists were ashamed right and now they're not so um and the and the backlash was um People saying oh you can't say anything and I just thought well imagine if you could you just could you didn't care about the consequences you wouldn't didn't care about offending anyone because that we do

we we even myself and Richard who want to tell the truth um we do things we don't want to do all the time because just because we're worried about if we're mugged we hand over the cash because we don't want to Get hurt right but imagine if you didn't care about living or dying that happens in the afterlife do you think bring it on I'm not scared anymore so that was the idea if you weren't scared about consequence if you weren't scared about politeness if you weren't so you had nothing to lose and that was

the seed of the idea really but then of course it becomes about kindness it it becomes about overcoming that people trying to save you this the comfort of strangers And the people who care and um and that's the thing about like um grieving and depression the thing that came out of life that shocked me um I've never had a reaction like it even the office I've never had a reaction like it because it was an emotional reaction and I found out that people come up to me all the time and they say oh I lost

my mother I lost my husband a lot and you think oh yeah of course everyone's Grieving everyone's grieving this year about something and um the older they get the more that happens and and uh that was never an intention but I I think it I think people hadn't seen certainly a comedy but they hadn't seen something that dealt with grief that man it was just he wanted to die and then I had to make it funny so uh yeah but Boston's character is dealing with grief not from a religious point of view at all well

I Wanted that I wanted a bit of a play on words with afterlife like he thought his life was over and he doesn't believe he doesn't even believe in an afterlife he hasn't even got that comfort so what's the point and um and I went down to sort of a nihilist Road and I I wanted to bring him out to say well there's still a point we've still you've still got a few years to enjoy everything else that's the that was the sort of philosophical question Um so to answer your original question I think I

am quite positive and I think I am um quite optimistic I'm an optimistic person I think it'd be all right you know I think it'd be all right if there's a meteor heading towards Earth five billion people are praying to their God and a few hundred scientists to get Bruce Willis up there So and and you talk about the impact I think again this is true of both of you the impact on people's lives that as you say people on afterlife that has a resonance with people well I think people want to see things that

they haven't seen before and I think this is what happens with marketing and people who are worried I think everyone sets out with these good intentions I'm going to do an uncompromised thing about Something they're going to say things never been said before and then soon someone says if you take out a couple of the swear words we can put on a nine o'clock if you change that to so and so um we might and then soon they've there's it's watered down and it's a you know uh um uh I remember once I was a

uh one of my first things at channel four uh 11 o'clock show um and I did a sketch it was about um there was a thing about Um a people who claimed benefit when they didn't need it and I played this sort of um uh sort of bigoted crazy right-wing journalist who it would always come down on the wrong side right and uh and he was saying my character was saying them what you should do is right if if someone you know um uh claims their death set off a fire alarm and see if they

run out of the building right so it was all that sort of stuff Channel 4 said can you change that to The blind because the deaf are very militant thank you so their moral judgment was how many letters they'd have to write also it doesn't work if he's blind because he can hear the [ __ ] Bell [Music] [Laughter] I wonder why they care about getting letters actually I've often wondered that because people think that one one Com now is worse and the worst no now people are terrified of one complaint and now you know

they're held around pick the BBC you know um I've I've um you know talked people down um like Executives by saying I'll write the letters sometimes they want to know I've explained the joke why it's okay and they go okay never complain I've never had if I've had a complaint it's never been upheld you know because if You can if you're clever enough you can it's not just putting stuff out there and trying to offend everyone it's you know you you can explain it some people just want to be heard I I work in my

normal job people would complain I'd call them back and they go oh didn't think you'd call back they were already happy that you'd called them back some people want to be heard because they're never heard and then people are scared of a complaint these days and no There's no reason for it but with with afterlife how does it feel to to get that feedback from people that it's much more emotional people saying that that touched me that has resonance it's great it's really good I feel very proud of that because some um it's just a

I suppose it's just another little layer to it um and uh and I'd certainly rather that than I hated it I was offended you know I Don't I don't want people to hate things I do and be offended I want them to enjoy it you know I'm a comedian I'm not a politician or a you know a religious leader or I I put stuff out there because I think they'll enjoy it and um and pay me and Richard obviously your books have had enormous influence on on people's lives how does that feel well um I

do very much appreciate Getting letters from people who say you've changed my life and I get a fair number of those um I get an enormous number who say that my books on evolution decided them to go into science at school and and only this week I was seeing a doctor and he and uh Australian doctor in hospital and he said um the end I want to thank you the selfish Dean was what made me take up biology and hence made me become a Doctor I love that I mean that that's really a wonderful one

and and perhaps more perhaps more relevant to this meeting um The God Delusion enormous numbers of letters from people who say you save me from my religious upbringing you you you you articulated something that I that I felt myself but could never quite find the words to just to say myself I am no longer I'm freed from the shackles of religion and and that I've I find it Again hugely gratifying there are many who say there are many who write in great distress because they have lost their faith and are unable to break the news

to their parents or their spouse and um I mean particularly poignant are the um clergy people who've there we've got a project in America called the clergy project which is designed to help clergy people clergymen and clergy women who've become atheists and can't escape because It's the only living they know and um so that's poignant when they when they're they're stuck they can only earn their living by by going on preaching sermons and things like that so so the the clergy project does that um and I like to think that maybe I I help them

as as well people who who need to escape And find it very difficult to do so I think that's I think that's really important and it comes back to the point we made earlier about um uh ideas not having human rights because I think people think when we criticize religion we're critical we're criticizing people who are religious which is couldn't be further the truth because we think they're victims too absolutely I mean the word islamophobia is all about that It's about it people think that if you criticize Islam you're criticizing Muslims quite the contrary they're

the primary victims of Islam well we are we're almost out of time uh but just before we finish up here just to turn our attention to the Future you have amazing pieces of work uh that you've carried out what what direction do you see yourself going in the future downhill seriously it's just just awful awful Yeah I've got a bad back I wake up I just I ache my knees have gone I don't know it's what's the point really I just I want to be when when have we got the head in a jar that's

when I that's where I'm on a skateboard me in a jar on a on a hoverboard whizzing around 200 years old right um uh I want to do more afterlife I'm starting filming next week actually he's after love too thank you um Uh I'm gonna do uh follow-up to humanity next year with um supernature so uh and then um I don't know uh just get drunk thank you so much uh for your uh uh sharing insights not only by atheism but about your your work and the the fan of the being a crooked duck and

um before I I think uh my two guests properly uh there's some other things to be done uh which is uh Simon who is uh In charge of the this wonderful venue the troxy here as uh has given us uh the uh the venue um oh can I just say I've knocked over a glass of water I haven't actually wet myself on stage absolutely clear under your chair no okay um a real rock and roll death as you electrocute yourself with your little head Mike Um uh Deborah Hyde and Chris French from the skeptic who

have organized uh the uh the event uh this evening and the center for inquiry and of course the Richard Dawkins Foundation are again for helping to organize and uh sort out the event but most of all my two wonderful guests it felt like a very special uh evening I think uh you'll agree and congratulations on the awards lovely thank you very much Yeah uh it's not gonna happen uh uh so who's Richard Dawkins for [ __ ] sake Richard will be saying books uh afterwards but I think you'll agree a fantastic and unique evening ladies

and Gentlemen please give a huge round of applause for two wonderful guests to amazing people Richard Dawkins thank you [Applause] Nice thank you I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Poetry of reality you might consider subscribing on the Poetry of reality.com that way you get the content without the ads anyway thank you for listening and see you next time