Perpétuo Para Público Frio: Conheça O “Funil De VSL” | Tiago Filemon - Segredos da Escala #161

I always kept thinking: man, what's going to happen the day this crowd that sells info-products there, who does a lot of cool stuff for warm traffic What is going to happen when they master this whole thing of running evergreen to cold audiences? What would happen? And it's going great, right man? That's what's happening. Cariani makes millions a month. Mariana Rios, a mainstream actress, is selling like crazy, millions a month with VSLs. Man, that is so crazy. Back in 2023, João and I had an expert, and we were making two and a half million a month

doing exactly what people are doing today. Exactly that. Man, our copy that used to pull two and a half million a month was So simple, dude, so simple. It was just bread and butter. Anyone looking at that copy would say: man, this copy is way too basic. Tiago Filemon. He has already generated over one billion reais with direct response. Today, he teaches experts and co-producers how to sell to a 100% cold audience using VSL funnels. There is a pattern in the highest-converting VSLs, you'll see they usually follow this framework. Are there VSLs that break this

pattern? Sure, there are. But it's rarer, it's an exception to the rule. If you want to build a VSL that converts, just follow what we're talking about here. Simply that. It's enough for you to build a VSL that will make a hundred thousand a day seven figures a month. The pattern is: I see that these two points are very common, like, it's a pattern that exists in these offers making over a hundred Thousand a day. When I saw that, I was like: "I am never making a VSL without using this again." The copy is the

same, only the lead changes. One will lose money, while the other will be extremely profitable. This one here can make a hundred thousand a day this other one might just lose you money. Check it out. Just by switching the lead. So the lead is a very sensitive part of the funnel. Man, if I had to bet on one type of lead, it would be... Today I'm having a conversation with Tiago Filemon. Tiago has worked behind the scenes on offers that combined have already generated over one billion reais in revenue, and today he's one of the

leading authorities in the country when it comes To VSLs and direct response. And what's cool is that after years of operating back there in the background, scaling offers, generating results, he decided, just now, in 2026, to teach exactly how he did it, you know? To manage to pull in so much revenue with VSLs, especially for the info-products market, which seems like now, they finally discovered what a VSL is, so it's a very hot market right now. So that's why, guys, here on this podcast we talked about how the people from the launch model are starting

to implement this VSL funnel and how they are getting so many results, making a thousand, ten thousand, sometimes a hundred thousand reais a day to a completely cold audience. So guys, in this episode right here we talked about a whole bunch of things, like for example, why this launch crowd is so excited about applying VSL funnels? Why today, you know, he believes it's the absolute best time for us to start with this model? And obviously, he also opened up the step-by-step framework he uses to transform any beginner who knows absolutely nothing about VSLs into someone

who can actually build a VSL and who might, you know, if the person is dedicated and works hard, manage to make a hundred thousand reais a day with their VSL funnels. So, if you are a co-producer, if you are an expert, or just someone who wants to understand how the engineering behind a high-level direct response offer works, one that actually scales, watch this podcast right here until the very end. I am absolutely sure, okay? that you are really going to enjoy this conversation. And if you are watching This episode from outside of Brazil, man, we

also have English audio and subtitles available right here. Just check it out on YouTube and choose the language settings to unlock this audio track. And in case you don't know us yet, like if this is your first time here, this is the Scaling Secrets podcast. And we bring on people who have already scaled their offers, already scaled their businesses, so that you at home can grab one, two, sometimes three great tips, if the podcast is good, apply them to your business and scale it as well. And this podcast was created by VTurb, which is a

video hosting platform focused on increasing the conversion rates of your sales videos. So if you have a VSL, a webinar, a sales video, anyway, a video that sells something, you need to host it on VTurb. There are already over eleven thousand companies that trust VTurb to increase The conversions of their sales videos. And if you want to create your VTurb account, I'm going to give you fourteen days for free so you can test VTurb out and see if it really works. And as soon as you see that it works, that you started making money, I'm

also going to give you an extra 15% discount for two months of your VTurb subscription. To take advantage of this exclusive pricing, just go to the description and there will be a link right there for you to click. So click there, sign up, and you will already receive these benefits. And also, I'm going to give you a 100% free training program showing you how to increase the conversion of your sales video this very day. So guys, enough small talk. So, with you all, Tiago Filemon. Tiagão, welcome. Hey, man. Once again. Man, is this your third

episode here? Your first... Guys, Tiagão has already done two episodes here at VTurb, there was this one which is podcast number 2, all about VSLs, and there was another podcast we did focused entirely on creatives. And it's been a long time since you did it. I don't even remember. Do you remember how long it's been? It's been about two years... like a year and a half. I think it's been two years since the, The first one. A year and a half, more or less. Yeah, exactly. And man, thanks for coming out here for the podcast,

I know I paid for Everything, right, the hotel, the whole damn thing. I just didn't pay for lunch because you didn't want to eat lunch. Becoming a fitness guy now, right, everyone? You can pay for dinner then. Over at Artusi. Now I'm screwed. Just for mentioning lunch, he already brings up Artusi right at me, but okay, fine. well man, thanks for coming out here. And... And just so people can understand, you know, a little bit of your evolution. You started out there as a copywriter, a freelance copywriter back then, you know, worked in several operations.

Then you started your own business, like you had your own operation. And... And dude, you reached some absolutely crazy revenue numbers, right? I know you've already hit multiple nine figures in a single month. yes. It's something kind of surreal, you know, guys, this level of scale, sometimes people either don't believe it or... they just can't really understand that it actually happens. but... and look, we could do a whole podcast just about that, because man, as you know, right? I've never had that specific experience. The most I ever made in a single month was multiple seven

figures. I've never made multiple eight... But that's because you stopped before the... the right time. If you had kept going, you would have definitely reached it. I think I would have shaken things up, you know? for sure, but, No doubt. But facts are facts, right? that's just reality. So I'm very curious, I would be very curious, actually, to talk about that. But today, why did I bring you here, right?" Because we are seeing... I mean, I'm identifying a new trend in the digital market, especially here in Brazil, which is, the rise of direct response marketing,

mainly VSL funnels, you know? for... for this info-products crowd over at Hotmart, people who usually do launches, right? So I'm seeing that this is becoming very strong. So much so that I'm talking a bit more about it here on the podcast. This already started last year, 2025, and now in 2026 it seems to be even stronger. And man, well, I know you kind of, I mean you made a lot of money back with your company there, right? Then you kind of stopped, and now you are teaching this. You're talking more about it. yeah. So it

aligned perfectly with this market moment and I want to talk about that. So today, I don't know if you thought we'd talk about the direct response market, but it's not that, right bro? We're going to talk about experts and all that. But Before that, I'm curious about something that I think the people at home want to know too. Why are you teaching, man? Like, you've already generated a billion. You're already wearing a 300k watch on your wrist right there, you know? What's your idea, bro? Why did you want to become a guru? like what's the

whole deal? What's going on? Man, it's an interesting point, right? For many years, I worked behind the scenes, creating all these offers. I started out in the market the official way, working as a copywriter right there in your operation. Then we became partners in that operation, managing to make good money. After that, I participated in other projects until I found this opportunity internationally, you know, where we generated over a billion out there. But it reached a point where I was like: "I need to do what I truly enjoy." Because at the beginning of the journey,

you know, we always go down that path of finding what we like, and I found that in copywriting. When I learned direct response copy, I said: "Man, this is it." Except that later, you know, from the moment you start playing this game at a high level, it stops being as fun as it was before. So it starts to become a bit more bureaucratic, the company had a hundred and thirty people, I had thirty copywriters internally, I had to manage those people. Wow! I had to train those people. So it starts to become a very heavy

business. So it reached a point where I said, okay, I've never made as much money as I made doing this. It was an opportunity that completely changed my life, I could have Retired. But I told myself, no, I want to do something that I truly enjoy. So what is it that I like? And teaching is without a doubt, without a doubt, one of the things I love the most. I love to teach. And I'm good at teaching. And I have massive results. I am probably the guy who has tested the most VSLs in Brazil, and

I'm one of the guys who made the most money with VSLs in Brazil. And I'm one of the guys who iterated the most within this market. And you are also one of the most technical. yeah. I say this bro, because I know a lot of people. I really know practically almost every single copywriter, and you are one of the most technical, if not the most technical one. So I managed to understand that theoretical part, I managed to understand that practical part, and I managed to generate over a billion in revenue. I Said: "Man, there's nobody

better than me to teach this." So basically, I changed my entire trajectory this year, you see? Putting several experts into operations that I also own, I have a few operations running today, and basically, yeah, I'm teaching this, how to make this work, because we've already made this work together, we've already generated multiple seven figures with experts. So I have several experts today who sell like crazy, and I want to teach these people to do exactly that, because it's not rocket science, but there is a foundation there of raw, old-school, direct response copy, and there's nobody

better than us in Brazil to talk about it. Man, thank you for the words. But I wouldn't even say us, bro. I would say more you, because you are still in the game, you know? I'm not in the game Anymore, you see? But look, you are still the best copywriter in Brazil in my opinion, okay? Don't push it. But you really are, man! Guys, that's a lie right there, okay? His very first lie of the podcast. Seriously, man. Like you were my mentor. I don't say this just because of that, but because, the direct response

market has to thank you a lot, bro. Because, I mean, the knowledge you shared... created names like me, like Derick, like Diogo Gomes, and several other copywriters who got massive results and changed their lives. So you were the one who started sharing this knowledge when nobody else was talking about it. I think so, man, I think I added value, but honestly... Do you know one Thing where I destroy you? On FIFA, man. You're going to get beaten today. No, I'm not, man. I'm going to record it on my stories. Look guys, I don't even know

if I'm gonna put the scoreboard up there, right? Because the last guy I said I'd show the score, I didn't even put it in because you know how bad he beat me, right? So, I didn't want to put it there, because I was like, 'Man, this is gonna look bad.' So I left it out. I used to be better than you at that, but nowadays I don't think so, right? I believe the person who's actually executing knows more anyway. But let's move forward here. But essentially then, you kind of made some good money, and you

decided to do what you wanted to do, something that you actually enjoyed doing. But just out of curiosity, okay? And guys, we are already going to talk about what really matters, applying these direct marketing funnels to your operation right there, if you are an expert, a co-producer, you'll be able to have this new funnel helping your business, which has tons of advantages over others, we'll talk about that in a moment. But just out of curiosity, why didn't you decide to, let's say, just chill out, like: "Ah, I'm going to play FIFA, train to beat me,"

you know? Man, I was basically drawn into this because several events happened in my life that showed me that now was the absolute right moment to stop what I was doing and begin this new journey. There are certain key moments in our lives, and I've already talked to you about this, back when I was transitioning from being a copywriter to becoming an actual business owner. Because a lot of people used to know me only as a copywriter, and for many years that was indeed my main focus. But it reached a point where I realized I

didn't want to be just a copywriter anymore. I wanted to be a real businessman who truly understands how business works. And I remember discussing this transition with you. like, how was that experience for you back then? Back when you stopped being just a copywriter and moved on to becoming a real business owner with your own company?" So, I go through several transformations like that over time. And one of those major transformations happened just now, which was to shift my focus toward my personal branding as an actual teacher who shares real knowledge. I already have massive

results, so my financial life is completely sorted out. And I said: "Man, I love teaching, and anyone who knows me closely knows that I Genuinely love to help people." Take my neighbors, for example, everything I can do to help them, I do. Reinaldo, Bruna, and André are all people who entered this market because of me, so I supported them right at the start. And I do this simply because I really enjoy it, without having anything to gain at first. When Reinaldo asked me to sell him a mentorship at the time, I told him: 'Dude, this

is not for you right now. It won't work since you're just starting out,' you know? And he mentioned that this honest approach was one of the things that brought me even closer to him, because he realized I didn't just want to take his money. And I don't need that. The main goal is always about helping. I like to teach, I'm good at it, and I understand the business inside out. I truly enjoy teaching. That is the truth, you see? Uh-huh, man, just one more question on this topic, simply because here on the VTurb podcast, I

think a major game-changer is that I always follow my own curiosity. and.. When do you think people should make that decision, I mean... to stop doing something just for the money and start doing something they actually enjoy? Because that is a very cool thing, right? Doing what we truly enjoy. like, man, I really love VTurb, but if I were a billionaire, I'm not entirely sure if I would still be doing this right here. Maybe I would. right guys? I haven't really reflected on it, But one thing I would probably do is play more FIFA, which

nowadays I don't play as much, although I'm still pretty good at it. When do you think people should make that leap? How did that whole process happen for you? Right. Man, there are signs that you receive, signs that show you really need to make a change. These signs happen when things just start to make no sense anymore, even when everything is working out perfectly. Imagine a scenario where everything is absolutely perfect, but you look at it and say: "Man, this is just not what I want." This happens a lot when we achieve something we wanted

so bad. And then, right after that achievement, we lose all interest in it because, okay, I got this car, I got this house, or I achieved this specific milestone in my career, but it doesn't mean as much to me as I thought it would mean, you know? And from the moment it loses that meaning, you have to look back at those simple things. One of those simple things was, for example, when I had the CF, which was a group of over a thousand people where I would host a class every single Friday to teach them,

and the crowd got massive results. That was about four years ago, and they crushed it. I really loved doing that. Except that I stopped doing it. So when I started thinking about that, another thing was being a professional musician for many years, playing at a high level. Nowadays, I play a whole lot more. It's something that I love to do. So I gradually stopped doing the things I liked, to focus entirely on work. And it was great, I mean, it was very good for my financial life, but it reached a point where I said: "Alright,

now that I have sorted this part out, let Me look into these other things here." And I found something that I'm good at and that is very interesting in terms of business, which is teaching on the internet, teaching something that I already do. Something that I've already done a lot, something where I have all the theory behind it, I have all the practice, I have all the results, and I have a lot of competence to teach. Uh-huh. and man, like, let me see if I understood it correctly then. So you want to teach because you

truly enjoy it. And the reason why you are involved in these other operations with these experts is so you can keep yourself updated, always having the fresh data, the absolute cream of the crop, the state of the art of what is working today so you can teach even better. Yeah, exactly. Because I don't agree with fake gurus who teach things they don't actually practice themselves. So, from the moment I left the other operation that I owned, I decided I wanted to teach people how to use direct response and how to make VSLs. At that exact

moment, I started partnering in other businesses, and today I have two businesses structured like that, where I have three experts in one, and four experts in the other, running and generating revenue using VSLs. And since I run these businesses, I am able to tell people exactly what is working, what is failing, what kind of VSL works, and what kind of VSL doesn't work. This is extremely important and essential. It wouldn't make any sense at all for me to just teach theory like those guys who retired, stopped everything, and just teach. The most interesting part is

being right there Watching it up close. And you are the one who always talks about this market pulse. I see Gary Halbert talking about it, I was reading a book of his the other day. Which one? it's the... The Boron Letters? The Boron Letters. It's going to pop up on screen, guys. Gary Halbert's book. So, this pulse of the market is extremely important for you to know what works and what doesn't work. And since we've been in this game for several years now, man, we've built a massive amount of market intelligence. That's why the ideal

thing is for us to actually share it. So that's exactly what I'm here to do. nice, I get it, man. That's cool. And man, you could kind of, like, keep teaching, people out there about classic direct response, let's say, for the nutra niche crowd and so on, you see? However, you are focusing more on this info-products crowd now? Yes. And from what I talked to you about, especially these people who do launches and live on that roller coaster of ups and downs. Why did you make the decision to go after this specific crowd when you

already had a whole network established, a huge authority over here in this other niche, which is an entirely different branch of the market? Since everyone already knew you there, did you want to reach new people, or are they just different audiences? What is your take on this decision? Man, no, this decision boils down to the simple fact that I can add way more value to these people who don't know anything about direct response. When we get into digital marketing, we find multiple paths and multiple things that actually work. You see that there are various strategies

and various business models that you can use to make money online. Except that there are some that are far more effective for a specific business model. But direct response, man, for anyone who wants immediate sales, is completely unmatched. Take a product launch, for example. A launch is wonderful and perfect, and I am actually doing a launch right now myself, just to make it clear. I think it's pretty cool. But if you don't have an evergreen funnel running right alongside that launch, and you only do a launch every two or three months, it becomes harder for

you to pay your team and keep the business running smoothly without a VSL funnel helping you out. And the knowledge of direct response is extremely good so that a person can sell More, improve their pitch, and improve their copy. Most of the copy we see in the Brazilian market today is not based on direct response, it's based on branding copy, which might work for a few things, but it's not the copy that truly sells, the raw, old-school copy that was born a hundred years ago in the United States. So, what we teach is basically that:

direct response copy, which is the copy that converts the most and is the strongest. It doesn't need to be super aggressive, it doesn't need fake promises, because it's totally possible to sell cleanly. That's why you see Mariana Rios today, a mainstream actress, selling millions a month with a VSL. Man, that is so crazy. She's my client, guys. he didn't even know. I told him today. Mariana Rios is my Client over at VTurb, guys. What is going on? Did you know about this, Gab? Do you know who Mariana Rios is? What do you mean, man? Oh,

come on, for God's sake! Look at that, man, she's actually my client, okay? Mariana Rios, you can look it up right now. Cariani, Guto Galamba, there are several major experts, right, using this exact same strategy. Why? Because it's an incredibly effective strategy that has a very low barrier to entry. You don't need rivers of money to test it out, and you don't need to run ten launches just to make the business work, you know? So with one VSL, maybe two, by the third VSL at most, if it even takes you that long, you've already hit

the Jackpot and can generate at least six figures a month. So, it's much more interesting for the launch crowd to have this knowledge than for me to teach it to the direct response crowd who already knows it, the DR guys already know how to sell. But when an expert gets this direct response knowledge, it's the most valuable thing they can learn, because they'll learn how to convert cold traffic. And that's the hardest thing today, the acquisition of that first customer. uh-huh, without a doubt. dude, I've been...you know, I've been saying this for a while now,

right, man? I think for about two years, I don't know exactly. I always kept thinking, man, what's going to happen the day this crowd that sells info-products there, who does a lot of cool stuff for rot traffic. For... I mean, not rot traffic, Rotten traffic is hilarious. I mean for 'hot' traffic, like warm, What is going to happen when they master this whole thing of running evergreen to cold audiences? What would happen? And it's going great, right man? That's what's happening. Cariani makes millions a month. Yeah.... it's 'Neto' over there who works with ... Yeah,

'neto'. Shout out to 'Neto'. shout out to 'Neto'. Awesome. um... Well man, I think, I don't know what your vision is on this, but look, the direct response market has always been right here, right? I've been working with this for twelve years, guys. It's been twelve years since I got into this whole game and everything. It's been, Eight years since I hit multiple seven figures for the very first time, with my own business. So, at the very least, I've been relatively advanced for eight years now. Yes. But only now, in 2026, after all this time,

the market is, sort of waking up and, like, understanding a bit more about it, and I think, right? like, I want to get your take on this, but I think, this movement accelerated a bit more when Ícaro de Carvalho started talking more about it. And there's an episode of his podcast here—it'll pop up on the screen right now, okay guys? where I remember him saying that Brazil is a hostage to launches. yeah. And I think, right? It was pretty much something like he said, that Erico Rocha came over here. Guys, check out the podcast if

I'm losing my mind, but I believe that was it, Erico Rocha came, taught everyone how to do launches, people got addicted to launches and started treating it as a business model, not as an acquisition model, a monetization model for their audience. Something that not even the Americans themselves do, right? They don't do it. Over there, in fact, evergreen funnels are much more popular than launch funnels. But since it made so much money in Brazil, people kept doing it, and they absolutely should, obviously. A lot of people made a lot of money with that. But then,

man, from mid-2025 until now, I've been noticing this very sharp growth for VTurb. And like you said, Cariani running a VSL, Luana Carolina running a VSL. Hanah Franklin is running a VSL too, Yes. I just learned today, right guys, as Tiago said, Mariana Rios is running a VSL. There are so many people running VSLs who were the textbook launch folks who did that for most of their lives, if not their entire lives. Man, what do you think is going on? Is there something I don't know? Like, are launches losing performance, or is there a specific

pain point this solves? Why is it getting so popular, man? What's happening? Man, I think it's a matter of funnel stacking, right? The launch crowd is looking to stack funnels. They realized that a launch is not a sustainable business model. And the moment a launch is no longer a business model, it becomes just a very valid strategy that you use alongside other sales strategies. So, this demand truly emerged. I believe Ícaro holds a massive part of that Responsibility, with many people discovering it and wanting to know more about it too, because nobody used to care

that much. Man, we were doing this in 2023. Back in 2023, João and I had an expert, and we were making two and a half million a month, doing exactly what people are doing today. Exactly that. To be honest, man, we were a little worse back then. We profited around five hundred thousand, I think, right? Four hundred to five hundred thousand out of those two million, which was a pretty nice profit. But man, if we went back with the things we know today, we would destroy it so much more, brother. Way more, we could easily

hit eight figures. So, this knowledge was scattered among the direct response crowd. Usually, the dropshipping crowd, the nutra crowd, like, the people who were selling products online and didn't want to depend on having a face out there, they used This knowledge. But what's happening now is that this knowledge is best utilized if you have an expert, if there's a face to it, and people are starting to find that out. The moment they discover this, they see it's the most powerful thing that exists. They see a VSL with an expert converting like crazy, where the person

makes two or three million a month and profits a million, and with a launch, can you make seven figures? Of course you can, you can make way more than that. It's just that it became much harder after a while because it became a more widely known strategy. With a VSL, if you have a VSL with your face on it, the lead isn't as used to seeing you like that, they're used to seeing other generic VSLs. But the expert themselves becomes a mechanism within this as well, a fresh Element that makes people buy, right? And you

can achieve massive scale, which is one thing a VSL has an absurd amount of: scale. You can make five million a month, you can make a hundred thousand dollars a day, right? So, that's why Guto Galamba, or Joabe, who is with Guto Galamba, tells me, "Man, we already made over a hundred thousand a day." Then Neto posts stories every day, Neto is Cariani's partner, a hundred and fifty thousand a day, sometimes even more. So, these guys understood that if they use direct response strategies, they can sell way more. And so they're doing it. Man, let

me ask you a curious question now, okay? Which, anyway, I really want to know. Um... back in my day when I was active, and even today, right? There is a stigma around the term VSL. Though that's dying out, like crazy, right? Because people simply started using their brains, you know? Like, wow, this is just a different sales format. Then the smarter crowd caught on, and the people who...—dude, if you still associate VSL with scams, man, just think about it for a second. Listen to me: It's just a sales format. Just like you can use a

knife to make a barbecue or kill someone, a VSL is the same, you can do whatever you want with it, it's just a tool. But dude, all this stigma used to exist, you see, which I think was something that really kept people, from looking into it because of that bias, you know? They associated one thing with the other. And do you know where that came from? PLR. PLR, yeah man... Because people saw everyone selling those cheap little ebooks with ultra-aggressive sales videos and those crazy, over-emotional stories. Everyone was like, "Oh, is that what a VSL

is? Then I don't want any part of this business." So it created a rejection of VSLs, but that was a completely different context from today. Today, you're going to build a VSL with an expert, of course it's not going to have those aggressive promises, it's not going to have wild stories, you don't need any of that. You're going to use the expert's own story, the actual product promises that their product can genuinely deliver. The exact same communication that the person already uses in a launch would basically be adapted into this new sales format. Absolutely. But

my question, actually isn't even about the stigma part because I know that's dying out now that these big references are adopting it. But man, do you... Like, do you have any feedback on how these launch guys react? I mean, what's their actual reaction when they build a VSL that pulls in, let's say, a 100K a day? Because for us, that's just normal business. Yeah. But for a guy who does launches, suddenly he has an evergreen funnel that brings him seven... or rather, it brings him a 100K a day in revenue. Like, have you personally caught

their reactions? Do they completely lose their minds? What do they even do? Man, they don't believe it. It's like they're in a fantasy world, because for a guy to hit six figures in a launch is already not an easy thing to do, you Know? For a guy to hit seven figures, man, he's a black belt. Erico literally gives the guy a black belt when he hits seven figures. So imagine hitting six figures in a single day. It's an absolute mind-blowing result, man. And with a profit margin, man, banking forty percent, thirty to forty percent profit,

that's very doable in this, okay? So, generally, the profit margin is around thirty to forty percent in this type of business. So the guys go crazy because they've never seen that kind of scale. But why? Look, every sales strategy has a specific math tied to it, meaning a maximum price point you can charge. So, let's say you want to sell a very expensive high-ticket item. A VSL might not be ideal. Some people do—but that's an exception, right? Some people use it, but it's an exception. So your VSL ticket should be At most four ninety-seven. Even

then, I still think that's a lot. Three ninety-seven or two ninety-seven is the sweet spot. uh... like, That's very important, right? And besides the math involved, each strategy is also ideal for the specific phase of the funnel the person is currently in. So since the VSL targets cold traffic, you achieve a level of scale that, man, you probably won't ever get even in a launch, because it pulls in a massive volume of new customers. And with these new customers entering your funnel, you can convert them countless times by selling high-ticket, selling an intermediate product for

two or three thousand dollars, or selling high-ticket backend offers for ten or fifteen thousand dollars. So when the expert sees that there's a door that—like, the moment he opens it—a Whole truckload of people comes in and starts buying everything afterward, they go wild, you know? I even call this a pre-purchase funnel. Which is basically people coming in, buying the front-end product in your VSL, and the moment they buy your product, it's way easier for them to buy any other product, right? That's the golden rule. The best customer you have is the customer who has already

bought from you. Without a doubt. So if you can get the customer to buy a low-ticket product right there, an acquisition product, moving them up to the next levels is a whole lot smoother. That's why I think this strategy works beautifully, especially for the crowd that only does launches and has never tested this, you know? Maybe they've never tried it and get scared, like, "will this work for me? Or will it hurt my launches?" Not at all, it's going to help and scale things up Without a doubt. And man, you mentioned that term that Erico

created, right, which is "black belt". That's the guy who hits seven figures in a single launch, who he considers an advanced player you know? and If we were to draw a parallel between that and direct response or a VSL funnel, do you think this guy making a 100K a day is a black belt? Within this whole info-product crowd. Man, I believe so, he's a guy who truly understood how the game works. So when you have the figure of an expert there, if the expert happens to be highly famous and all, of course that's going to

help, it's going to boost the results a bit right there. But it's not as much as people think, because everyone sees it... for instance, on the ads I'm running right now for the paid launch I'm about to do, I received Several comments from people saying, "Oh, but they're only doing that because they're super famous, so of course it's going to work for them." No, not at all. That's just because most people don't understand the true power of a VSL. The expert we were running back in 2023, man, she was completely unknown. She had, like, five

thousand followers on Instagram. Fran? yeah, Fran. She was unknown. She became famous, right? She became really famous, yeah. She was unknown, guys. She became famous. I don't know how she's doing today, but back in our day, man, she was making some serious money too. She's making great money. She's still working as an expert. Shout out to Fran. Thanks for helping us out, we're talking about you right here on the VTurb podcast, Look at that clout. So, you see, she wasn't famous, and we were generating two and a half million a month. So, is it interesting

for you, even without being famous, to pull in two and a half million a month? There are plenty of people who can't even make that in a launch. We were doing that every single month, for several months that we ran campaigns with her. So yeah, it's totally possible for someone to make a hundred thousand a day. I believe that if someone is hitting a hundred thousand a day with a VSL, they already have everything they need right there to scale that up to maybe, let's say, five million or ten million a month. It's totally doable,

we see cases nowadays, like Elida's, for example. Yeah, man, if you have a funnel bringing in a hundred thousand a day in new customers, dude, you can cause some serious damage. Like, you can do a Whole bunch of things with that, from launches to webinars— High ticket, and all that stuff. high ticket, everything you want to plug into that machine. Once you have that specific tool feeding the ecosystem, it truly becomes surreal. Yeah, because what experts lack today is a predictable machine that brings in fresh customers every single day, customers from cold traffic. It's no

use just bringing in people who already know you. So, there is a machine capable of converting a person, you bring in a cold audience that has never seen you before, and you convert them into a paying customer. The moment you have that converted customer, you can pitch multiple other backend offers to them, and that customer will buy those offers. So, that's incredibly powerful. And most people don't have this machine, it's non-existent. Man, I think they do have a machine, it's just that it's not that good. It doesn't generate buyers, it generates followers. And what machine

is that? Content. Content, exactly. But it doesn't even compare to a VSL. there's no comparison. In a thirty-minute VSL, you can warm someone up better than if you produce content for, let's say, six months. Because content is going to take months to warm a person up. A thirty-minute VSL can warm up a prospect much easier than oceans of free content, you know? Because they saw value, they saw enough real value to the point of buying, and if they already paid for that, it's just way easier for them to buy more products later down the road."

Uh-huh. Man, This crowd, right? Who are kind of the real black belts, as Erico would say, of modern direct response? This 100K/day info-product crowd and those top references you mentioned, for example, like, They...I mean, once, they were white belts too, right? Right. So, how...I mean, since you are inside of this business, how is this crowd taking that very first step into the world of direct response? I think the VTurb podcast must add a ton of value for people. If you're a guy who used to do launches, or still does launches, from that Hotmart, Kiwify, info-product

crowd, and you learned about VSLs here with us, man, leave a comment down below, okay? Just so I know, or at least so I can get an idea. But how do you think that journey looks for a guy starting out, like, getting involved in this world? Maybe he doesn't want to aim for a 100K a day right away—well, he definitely wants to, no doubt about it, but maybe he wants to start with 1 thousand a day, make thirty thousand a month, a hundred thousand, or a straight million a month. What does that beginning look like?

Man, at the beginning, I believe the VTurb podcast is essential for that. But something even deeper for anyone who truly wants to understand how to enter this world of VSLs is understanding the core principles of direct response. Because these are unchangeable laws that guys used a hundred years ago to sell, and the moment we apply those same principles today, they work exactly the same way, man. So if you apply what Gary Bencivenga used, the elements of proof. Then if you apply what Gary Halbert talked about, you know? The angles, the starving crowd. So if you

apply these principles that the grandmasters of direct response used, you can get better results doing whatever it is you're doing today. Whether it's a launch or a webinar, you know? And for a VSL, it's essential, because the crowd that doesn't know how to build a VSL will think it's just about grabbing a script: "Oh, give me the script." ''Give me the script, I'll take this script and..." No, there's a whole psychological engineering behind why a VSL works, why a VSL is structured that way, what elements a VSL must contain, and which objections each element kills.

So I think everything starts with the foundational principles of direct response. uh-huh. But, do you think people are going to—like, this crowd that's scaling right Now... because they're scaling, without a single doubt. Oh, the crowd that's already scaling. You mean, how did they learn? Yeah, I think... Dude, I don't know how far this crowd actually learns the principles... No, many don't know them, many don't. Many just simply executed. Look, right now is the perfect timing to run a VSL. For some reason, the stars aligned, something happened that made it easier to sell for every expert

running a VSL. So if there was ever a perfect timing for someone to run a VSL, it's right now. Why? Because people are starting to do it, and unknown individuals are making five million a month, three million a month, you know? So an expert who is even slightly known, if you have fifty thousand followers, a hundred thousand Followers, man, you're in paradise, because it's going to be so much easier for you to build a VSL that maybe won't make one or two million, and that's totally fine. But it will make two hundred thousand a month,

three hundred thousand a month. That's not bad at all, you know? So I believe this crowd is simply executing because the timing is right. You don't need to know every single detail, but if you do, it's obviously better. And that's why we're going to break it down for everyone on this podcast. And dude, what do you think is important, in terms of the fundamentals of this whole direct response business? Whenever I think about direct response, man, I think about three core variables, which are psychology, communication, and math. And you can expand on that infinitely, but

do you think along those lines or do you look at other elements? Man, I find your framework very interesting. I think about it too, but I also think a lot about that other direct response framework, which involves something like: forty percent of your campaign's success depends on the audience, forty percent depends on the offer, and twenty percent depends on the copy. The moment someone understands this, they'll realize they don't need to be a mind-blowing copywriter to make a VSL that converts. You don't have to be the best copywriter in the world to do it. I've

seen horrible copywriters write VSLs that sell insanely well because they nailed the audience and they nailed the offer. Man, my barber made a hundred thousand dollars last week. Wow it Wasn't with a VSL, mind you, but just to show the importance of the right audience. My barber is the go-to barber for the millionaires over in BH. Can I say his name? sure man. it's Romarinho Yeah, Romarinho, it's really him. That guy is famous, man. Hey Romarinho, I don't even know who you are, bro. I've never seen you, never looked at your face, but I know

you all the way from Floripa, man. That's crazy, bro. He's a beast. I put an offer together with him. He wanted to sell a product. I was like, "Man, target the crowd that has money. Forty percent of your campaign's success depends on the audience. Target the crowd that has money." He's the go-to barber for the millionaires over in BH. He has several millionaire clients. He even has a few billionaires. Whoa! Yeah, he has a few billionaires! And so, I told him, 'Man, you need to sell something to these guys.' I put an offer together with

him, and Tarley helped craft it too. And basically, he set up a private mastermind for entrepreneurs, the Roma Club. It's like an exclusive brotherhood. There's wine nights, dinners at high-end restaurants for the guys to network, you know? He charged five thousand each, and he signed up twenty people in a single week. Holy crap, man. So, just to show you, the success of a campaign is heavily tied to the audience you choose. Alright. So, if you already have a defined niche, you're not going to change your audience. But what can you actually offer them? Well, that

offer equation from Alex Hormozi is very important too, you know? The value formula that calculates the dream outcome, the perceived likelihood of achievement, the time delay, and the one-and-only effort and sacrifice. I Truly believe that this exact principle of forty percent audience, forty percent offer, and twenty percent copy is essential for these experts to realize that they don't even need to be copy masters to make their online business work out. Uh-huh. It's all about offering the exact right thing to the person who is looking for it. And to be honest, guys, here is a more

advanced insight for the crowd: inside those twenty percent dedicated to copywriting, what are you actually going to find? You're going to find core promises, social proof, and high curiosity. Yes. And the social proof element alone, just by the fact that you exist as an established expert, because you have an Instagram profile, your authority level is already through the roof. Exactly. So it Makes it even easier. It's just way easier. Simply because you are that expert right there, you have a solid social presence, you are a real person that people can look up to. The ones

who really have a tough time, man, are those guys you mentioned from the PLR market. That's why they went crazy on promises because they didn't have this little secret. They had no one to put a face on the brand. Yeah dude, nobody ever does that in that space. So their proof element had to be much more aggressive, way more elaborate for them to be able to persuade the audience. But man, that framework you just mentioned... For anyone who wants to learn more about this, guys, there is a book called Overdeliver by Brian Kurtz. It should

pop up right here on the screen. He breaks Down this concept. He even goes as far as saying that he considers the list to be slightly more important than the offer itself. He literally states that it's forty-one percent list. Look how interesting that is. The full title is Overdeliver: Build a Business for the Long Term with Direct Response Marketing, by Brian Kurtz, who was an absolute legend and a highly influential figure in the global direct marketing industry. Interestingly enough, there is a podcast with Brian Kurtz right here at VTurb, guys. It will show up on

the screen. I get to host podcasts with some absolutely insane minds, man. That's so cool! I didn't even know about that. We have some legends around here, man. Like David Deutsch coming up on the screen. There's a solid group of people here. But anyway, assuming the audience listening to us at home understands that In direct response marketing there are three crucial elements: you have the list, which is basically the target audience we are going to go after. And that's usually predefined by the specialist, right? If he is a weight loss expert, he is going to

speak to people who want to lose weight, and he can laser-target whoever he wants within that segment, right? Yes. In the book The Boron Letters by Gary Halbert—and we know Gary Halbert was one of the greatest copywriters of all time—he explains exactly how to select the right list. He teaches his son how to choose the highest-converting list. And the absolute hottest list that converts the most is always the list of clients who have already bought something from you in the past. That's why everything we are breaking down here has a solid foundation behind it, see?

Because it's a list of existing customers. If you have people who already Spent money with you, they are your best leads to buy again. So this reinforces the whole argument that a product launch gets way easier if you have a high-converting VSL funnel running on evergreen right before it. Awesome. And dude, there is a core marketing concept called RFM. The R stands for Recency, the F is for Frequency, and the M represents Monetary Value. So, the absolute best customer is the guy who bought from you yesterday—recency; he buys from you every single month—frequency; and every

time he purchases, it's a high-ticket item—monetary value. Do you remember which of those three is the most critical? Because Gary states that one of them is highly... I think it's Recency. It must be Recency. Which is quite counterintuitive, right? Yeah, he says Recency is The most important one by far. Go after the guy who bought from you as recently as possible. I'm almost certain that's how it goes. It makes sense. Logically, it has to be. Because if a guy only buys, let's say, once a year, it's a different story. But based on first principles, Recency

is the primary variable. But this audience variable here, man, it is important, but I didn't really want to focus on it today, you know? I wanted to talk about the other two instead, which are the offer variable and, the copywriting variable, right? Because a lot of people, I mean, the typical info-product guys who run traditional launches, usually work with high-ticket products. And like.. there are traditional launches selling programs for two thousand Reais, For example. And honestly, I believe you can make that actually work with a structured VSL, even though it's not the most simple or

common thing to see, right? But you said a ticket up to five hundred Reais works incredibly well. I've also seen it work beautifully at one thousand Reais. Mainly because exceptions always exist. Just this week, a guy who used to be a student of ours reached out on WhatsApp. Back then, he was in our YouTube mentorship. His name is João Pedro, and he was scaling an English learning expert. I remember this guy was making around two hundred thousand a month. We coached him up to hitting five hundred thousand a month at that time. João? yeah, João

Pedro. "Shout out to you, João!" An awesome guy. And he told me: 'Man, I'm currently running a VSL to sell a high-ticket program for one hundred thousand Reais, and it's converting.' But it's a Strategic VSL that drives the lead directly to an internal sales team, and then they close. But the point is, it's working. So it is possible, but I never build a business strategy based on exceptions. I base it on the general rule. And the general rule is usually up to four-ninety-seven. The exception is the fool's rule." Yeah. Or the idiot's rule, whatever. There

is a saying like that. But man, imagine there is a launch guy watching us. And he wants to become a white belt in the world of VSLs, because, I don't know, maybe he just wants to make more money, or he wants to optimize his current launch results, or whatever his goal is. But you agree with me that having a massive volume of frontend customers is great, right? You can do so many things with that data. And he wants to sell something right away. Uh-huh. He wants to implement this funnel as an acquisition branch in his

operation. I think the very first step for him is to choose the right product. Yeah. What advice would you give for someone to select a product that will actually work to convert cold traffic, so he can get this client acquisition machine running smoothly inside his company? Perfect. The expert basically has two main product models they can develop. The first product option is to create a condensed summary of their core flagship program. So, if they offer a premium mentorship focused on a specific topic, this new frontend product will be a summary. It's going to be shorter,

more direct, and it won't deep dive into every single detail. For instance, you could create a digital info-product about VSLs that is straight To the point and much shorter. Whereas in a high-end mentorship, it would be a deeply detailed program with countless real-world examples, breaking down the complete funnel ecosystem, not just a single VSL structure. So that's the first option—a frontend product that acts as a summary of your main mentorship. Uh-huh. The second option is to look inside your current main product and extract a specific piece out of it, you see? So, let's take a

guy who teaches... sales. So, there is a sales training program. Like, car salesmen. And in this sales training, there are several modules inside. So, he has a module on icebreakers, client communication, phone sales scripts, digital marketing strategies, and so on. He could easily take one of Those modules—ideally the easiest one to grasp and the one that naturally attracts the most interest—and turn that single module into a standalone product to sell directly on cold traffic. So those are the two best paths: a summary of your main flagship offer, or extracting an existing module from your program.

Of course, you'll need to re-record the videos, polish the quality, and make it a great standalone product, but you are pulling it directly from your main content. If your premium mentorship costs three thousand, and there is a specific module in there about prospecting, you grab that prospecting module, package it up, and build an irresistible offer based solely on that specific, hyper-focused topic. Both models work incredibly well: one that is hyper-focused on a single outcome, or a condensed, streamlined summary of your entire methodology, you Know what I mean? Uh-huh. I get it. And man, there is

something else I wanted to ask you. Actually, it's not even a question. I'll just make a comment and I want you to share your thoughts on it, okay? uh... And I don't know about the people watching us here, but I assume whoever is watching us are people who are just entering this world. Yes. Maybe there are some advanced fans of yours watching too, and if that's you, man, thank you for watching. But, like for the people who are... Man, what's the belt color after black? There is the coral belt, right? Yeah, there is a... And

you are definitely a coral belt. Not a regular black belt. There are a few degrees up there, see. It's the tenth dan of whatever, the coral belt or something... of direct response marketing, right? And then we have the black belts... anyway, we have every belt color here. But man, for the people who are advanced digital marketers in direct response, we know the importance, how absolutely essential it is for us to have references, to do good benchmarking. To see exactly what other people are doing in the marketing landscape. Uh-huh. One very common thing, okay? Very, very

common in the direct response market, is for a guy to see what other people are doing and position his product based on that. Yes. So if everyone is selling angle X, you can choose to sell angle X plus one, or you can literally just sell angle X as well, you see? Because if people are actively buying it, in theory, it's going to work out for you too—maybe not at the exact same scale, but it works. But I don't know, man. The thing is, for us, this is second nature. We understand that this is simple and

obvious. For other people, no. For the average person watching us, they might have... well, I assume that many traditional marketers still hold a lot of prejudice against VSL funnels. Yeah. Do you think this bias exists when doing benchmarking, looking at references, and simply modeling what the market is already buying? Do you notice that, man? Yes, there is a comfort zone. Why? The expert already has a method and says: 'Look, I have this framework here, I just want to run traffic.' But the problem is Their method is a three-thousand-Real mentorship or course. Man, that is not

going to work on direct traffic. What actually works on direct traffic is something between one-ninety-seven and four-ninety-seven. That's it. That is what works on direct traffic and yields the highest scaling margin. And you will have to adapt a new product for this. It's useless to take that three-thousand-Real product and throw it there for three thousand, it won't work. So the person must create this new product. They can absolutely capitalize on market trends. Let me give you an example: you sell an investment course. Inside your investment course, you have several modules. You teach fixed income, variable

income, the stock market, and so on. Let's say there is a specific module on cryptocurrencies where you teach Bitcoin. For some reason, crypto is Trending, and Bitcoin is having a massive hype. Suddenly, everyone is talking about crypto, Bitcoin keeps going up, it looks amazing, and it's the main topic everywhere. Man, you can easily take that specific Bitcoin module and build a powerful VSL centered entirely around that angle. You can structure a VSL focused on that trend and craft a frontend product around the Bitcoin hype, simply because that's what the market is talking about right now,

see? So it is easier for the expert to take action this way and model what is already working, rather than trying to force whatever random method they have into a VSL framework. It's not going to work that way, so they need to be strategic. And it doesn't require that much effort. They can pull it from what they already have, you know what I mean? And so the expert takes advantage of a market hype. Or, if they understand the topic well but don't have that specific module recorded, they can simply produce a new training program from

scratch. They leverage that market trend to launch a Bitcoin product. So they can execute it both ways. and this is incredibly common in direct response. You see what is trending high and you create a targeted solution to solve it. So if the person can just execute that... they're set. And man, assuming that, as we discussed, the offer represents forty percent of the campaign's success, If there's an expert or a co-producer out there who wants to force something they want to sell down the client's throat, it simply won't work. It's the ultimate recipe for failure, right?

Like you mentioned about Gary Halbert, we have to sell what the crowd is actively looking to buy. If the crowd wants hot dogs, you sell them hot dogs, brother. Don't try to sell lasagna just because you want to sell lasagna. Yeah. And man, that classic story about Gary Halbert is very interesting, right? For those who don't know, Gary Halbert was teaching a class to his students and... Basically, he used to say: 'Look, we are all going to open a hot dog stand. Each of you can choose one competitive advantage to win the market and sell

the most.' One student said: 'Oh, my hot dogs will be the most delicious.' Another said: 'Mine will be the cheapest.' Another guy said: 'Mine will be the fastest.' Everyone chose an advantage. Then Gary said: 'Look, there is one advantage that, if I choose it, I will easily outsell all of you.' The only advantage I choose is a starving crowd. A starving crowd of People desperately looking to eat. Because he knew that the audience consuming the product is one of the most critical elements; it's the second most important factor in marketing. So that is what truly

dictates the game. There is no use trying to force a product into a customer's mind. Sometimes the person has an old method, or a method that doesn't fit, man. They will have to adapt that into something that works on direct traffic, you see? yes, without a single doubt, man. And.. that's exactly why I emphasized the importance of benchmarking and references, because we can drastically shorten the path to these critical decisions, Which are major business decisions, simply by following this core marketing principle. And honestly, I don't know if people out there hold some sort of Prejudice

against this, but if you do, man, please get that out of your head right now, okay? Just stop it. That's enough. It's time to level up and look closely at the successful benchmarks. If you see a player who is selling a product and it's working beautifully, if he's a top-tier marketer who engineered that funnel and thought through every single variable, man, the volume of high-level detail embedded in that system is immense. Dude, an offer you create... like that offer from Fran that blew your mind, brother. There is a whole study behind it, which isn't impossible

to learn, okay? It's not impossible at all. Anyone can figure it out. But when you look at a reference, you shorten your learning curve so much, right, man? Massively. And if you look at it, like, if someone who isn't a copywriting expert Reads that copy, it's an extremely simple thing. The mechanism was just recommending products. Recommending products. and when I first wrote that copy, I told myself: 'Man, this is way too simple.' Is this thing going to sell? It's so simple, man, just recommending products online. Affiliate marketing was already saturated, everyone had already talked about

it. But I said it this way, and in this way, people accepted it and started buying like crazy. like an offer that was generating sixty thousand Reais a day. So it's wild to witness that because, a lot of times, to achieve a seemingly simple frontend result, you have to do a massive amount of complex backend engineering. But honestly, it's not even that complex because, man, for an expert to make a traditional launch work out, they usually have to execute around seven launches According to Erico's exact blueprint just to get one major hit. That process takes

months, man. See? Whereas with a VSL funnel, if you develop two or three different VSL angles, man, you can generally hit the right one right away and start generating consistent sales. So it's much simpler, so it doesn't have all this— but you have to, apply these principles we're talking about here. and you can get it done in a week, right? Yes, you can do it in a week It all depends on your hunger for results. If you are determined to execute super fast, you can pull it off. Yes, you can do it even faster, man.

Nowadays with the help of AI, right? AI helping you search, helping you build some elements there, you can do it even faster. Uh-huh. Man, look, I have another important question for you, okay? Because you mentioned that there are two main paths you recommend for the white belts who are just entering this direct response world and starting with VSL funnels. You said: 'Man, create a condensed frontend summary of your premium flagship product,' or you take a specific module from it and launch it as a standalone offer right away. And then I brought up this third approach,

which is looking at what's actively working in the industry and creating a similar solution. And just to be clear, guys, there is absolutely no problem with doing that, okay? There are multiple bakeries out there, there are dozens of different bottled water brands. That's exactly why competition exists. These are businesses competing for the same customer by offering similar products with different or slightly Tweaked value propositions. but, you mentioned Alex Hormozi's value equation, right? which is going to pop up on the screen right now, guys. On the top half of that equation, we have the perceived likelihood

of achievement—which is how certain the solution feels and how much proof is backing it up—and also how deeply your product satisfies the prospect's desire. For example, between a gym membership and liposuction, lipo is significantly more expensive because it satisfies the desire much more. And on the bottom half of the equation, we have two variables: the effort, meaning how hard they have to work, and the time delay, which is how fast the solution delivers the outcome. Our goal is to decrease those bottom variables. actually, how long it takes, So it has to be super fast, effortless,

guaranteed, and satisfy exactly what the person wants. Those are the four variables. "The perfect offer." That is the perfect offer. Now, given that framework, brother, do you believe the top players in this market actively manipulate these variables? Do you see the highest-converting offers from those high-scaling experts you mentioned—the black belts who are making over 100K a day—relying heavily on this? Do they tweak these variables or not? Because this is a strategy that this niche of info-product experts has way more freedom to implement compared to the traditional direct response guys, right? Usually, the direct response crowd

is super standardized because they don't even think straight about the product. But here in the expert world, they think way more about it. Yeah. Is this something that's relevant, do people apply it, or do you not see it happening that much? What's your opinion? It is extremely relevant. For instance, you will notice that these offers generating one hundred thousand a day almost always include a heavy Done-For-You element embedded within them. What does that mean? Done For You is when you do it for the person. Let me give you an example. I'm going to sell a

VSL course to you., right? And inside this course, I am going to teach you how to write a high-converting VSL script. But then, what is the Done-For-You element? Man, I'm going to hand you, just as an example, a fully designed and optimized landing page for your VSL. I'm going to give you a ready-made template where you just follow This exact step-by-step framework to get it done. I'm going to deliver the five VSL video templates you need to test your very first campaign. So you are delivering ready-to-use assets directly to the person. This Done For You

element is one of the most powerful things to do. Why? Because inside any sales process, there is a low self-esteem because the person has already tried to solve it alone and couldn't. That's why they look for you, that's why they buy a product. And when this low self-esteem kicks in, a lot of times, the biggest objection in their mind isn't even your methodology. The prospect goes: 'Man, your method is perfect, it's wonderful. I'm sure it works, I've already seen that it works, but— I won't be able to make it work, because I've already failed several

times. I won't be able to execute it the Right way, I'm going to do everything wrong.' The problem is with them. When the problem is with them, you solve it with a Done For You offer. The more things you can deliver ready for that person, the better, the higher their chance. Because it won't depend on them, they won't have to make the page, I'm delivering it ready. They won't have to make the ads, I'm giving them right there the five ad models they're going to use. So the more Done For You your offer is, the

better it is. That's the first point. And the second point, which has a lot to do with this confidence, is how do I know if the business is going to work for me? It has to do with the proof elements, the more dramatic the proof you use in your VSL, the better. So why is Polishop a company that made billions? And you look at their ads, they were demonstration ads. The air fryer frying, or the little robot that cleans The house cleaning the house. Demonstration is the most powerful element of proof there is. The moment

a person uses a demonstration in the VSL, it creates that feeling of: 'Man, this thing is real, this thing works,' you know? So, I don't know, if it's a diet VSL, where there's a person who started the diet and after so many days lost so many pounds. Man, that's a hell of a proof element, see? Because the prospect goes: 'Wow, the thing really works.' They followed the diet for so many days and achieved result X. So, yeah, this demonstration element is very powerful. So these VSLs have very strong proof elements. So, usually, it's multiple testimonials,

demonstrations, all kinds of things that prove what they're saying actually works, you know? So, I see that these two points are very common—it's a pattern that exists across these offers that make over 100k a day. A Done-For-You offer combined with that demonstration element in the sales process. Nice. Wait a second, let me pause the podcast right here. Man, if you could choose anyone in the digital marketing space to be here on Scaling Secrets, interviewed by me, who would it be? Who is the one person you'd love to have here breaking down their numbers, strategies, and

operational backstage? If you know who that person is, look, we went ahead and created a quick form that is linked right down here in the description for you to nominate them to us. It takes only about a minute to fill the whole thing out. And then, you just drop their name right there, we'll study their profile, figure out how we can make it happen, and eventually, if it makes sense, we'll bring them onto the podcast For an interview to deliver that content to you watching at home. So man, if you have someone in mind who's

worth interviewing, go right down to the description and drop their name. It really helps us know what kind of specific content is worth creating for you, alright? But right now, let's get back to the podcast. man, and what about this crowd, right? like, the people we're talking about who run launches and info-products. So tell me, how do you explain, like the whole concept of a VSL funnel to them? How do you frame it so they understand exactly how it works, step-by-step, and get the persuasion phases of this funnel? Right. Man, the VSL funnel is simple.

It's an ad driving traffic to a landing page. On that page, you have your VSL, followed by the checkout. And of course, you can build, more complex funnels on top of that, right? So, if you want to clear 100k a day, you'll probably need to add a few more steps, multiple upsells along the way, but the core foundation is an ad, a VSL, checkout, and then one upsell. I'd say that's the MVP. so. every MVP I build with an expert looks exactly like that. At least one upsell at the start, the VSL, and the ad.

It's that simple, you know? Since there are so few steps, execution is way easier. Think about a launch. How many moving parts do you have to execute? It's extremely complex, you know? A VSL is much simpler. You script a few ads that drive to a page, and that page holds the VSL. Did it sell? Perfect. You validate the VSL right there, see if it Hits. Plus, you have VTurb to track retention and see how many people landed on the page. you get all the metrics right there. You have everything you need to analyze the data,

you know? So it's generally a very straightforward process to roll out. Uh-huh. It is simple, but look, it's like, It's very simple to test and implement. Simple to implement, not simple to validate. Sometimes a person will have to script two or three VSLs because the baseline success rate is usually around 30%, you know? Even if they know their stuff and play it smart. But the funnel itself is very simple to deploy. Validating it will take a bit more effort, but that's just part of the game. man, yeah... without a doubt, validation has its challenges, but

man, I think it's way Easier than anything else out there, right? yes. maybe just the low ticket, but it requires the same effort to validate, actually maybe it's just cheaper to test. Exactly. I mean, It's the same validation difficulty, but man, across this whole process, what do you think is the biggest hurdle people face when they first dive into this world? Do you think it's the ad creatives, the VSL itself, the upsells, or just believing that this actually works in the first place? Man, I think it's believing that it works. Because if the launch crowd

genuinely believed in VSLs, they would already be executing them. But you see very few people actually doing it. And that shows they probably don't realize the massive power behind it. They might have no clue what it can do. It only clicks when you see someone scaling To 100k a day. It only becomes real when you see a Mariana Rios making millions a month, or a Cariani, because these are people who didn't run VSLs before. And then they started running them. Sure, they are famous, fine. But I have a whole truckload of unknown people I could

show you. Just shoot me a DM, and I can show you a massive list of regular people who aren't famous at all and are clearing millions using VSLs too. So, the moment you believe it's possible, you start testing. And man, if someone actually executes, it's almost impossible, João—if they test, say, four or five VSLs and none of them convert at all, that's almost impossible. It's almost impossible. You're going to hit something that sells. Will it hit 100k a day right out of the gate? Maybe not. Maybe it makes five thousand a day, ten thousand a

day. But you can build something profitable if you Run basic tests. Three, four, five VSLs max is usually enough for a person to land a winner, you know? Uh-huh. Man, and once a person finally believes in it and you sit down to explain to them how to craft a VSL, how do you break down and map out that entire creation process so that they can truly understand it and know exactly where they should start? The very first thing when it comes to creating a VSL is that it starts from back to front. So, it's pretty

much like what I was telling you earlier, right? Robert McKee, who is the legendary author of the book Story, is widely considered the top screenwriting professor in all of Hollywood. Is the title just 'Story'? story, just that. "Put it up on the screen—" It's one of the most Famous books on storytelling and narrative structure. It's worth reading. Very much so. Highly worth it. In the book, he teaches a concept based on milestones, basically, but to simplify: he teaches that you should write a script from back to front. Why? Because you can only write a killer

hook and intro if you know exactly what the ending is. That way, you can build an opening that sets up intense curiosity for that specific finish, right? And we've kind of always done that. We've been doing it that way since day one, you know? So that's the best way for someone to understand how to craft a VSL. You don't start writing a VSL in chronological order, thinking, 'I'll write the hook here, then move to the next section.' No, it doesn't work like that. You always start from back to front. And how does that look? You

start with the very end: the offer. So the offer is the first thing you lock in, right? And right alongside that, there is a specific blueprint that we use, which we call a briefing. where you map out every single piece of your VSL. So you have—you start with the offer, that's one piece. What are the other pieces? The mechanism. What's the next piece? The story. And the last piece? The lead. The lead is your opening hook. Those are the core components of a VSL. It's the offer, the mechanism, the story, and the lead. That's basically

it, just keeping it very simple. And once we actually have all of these little pieces ready, then we really have to start developing them. And we begin to develop them using a specific blueprint. This blueprint is a Brief that organizes all those exact pieces right there for us to assemble. And once every single piece is fully optimized, we put it all together, because copy isn't written, it's actually assembled. That's another core copywriting principle that Eugene Schwartz used to talk about. He said copy isn't written, it's assembled. You don't just write copy from scratch, you assemble

it. You take individual elements and fit them together in a highly persuasive order that drives the person to buy. So you have this blueprint to assemble the pieces. But the very first step of this entire framework, before you actually start piecing things together, is deeply understanding both the market and the audience. And how do you do that? In the simplest way possible, okay? Back in the day, how did we do it? By researching for hours on end, uh, looking through endless data, studying Reddit threads, digging into comments and stuff. Nowadays, the process is way simpler.

First, you have AI to help you map out the obvious angles, like: what is the single biggest pain point of this audience? What are the deepest desires of audience X, Y, or Z? So AI can definitely help you with that. However, the absolute most valuable source of data for your VSL research is studying other offers that are currently scaling in your exact niche. There is simply nothing more powerful than that because you need a validated source—a proven framework that you know for a fact is working out there. that is hitting the prospect's real pain point

and tapping into their true desires. You can only be certain of that if you analyze a VSL you've run that sold well—where you look at it and go, 'man, this sold, so let me break it down' or if you look at competitor VSLs in your niche that are actively scaling right now. The best way to find out what people want is simply to look at what they are already buying. Humans are incredibly predictable. By analyzing human behavior, you can see exactly what they want. So how do you know what your audience wants? How do you

offer exactly what they are looking for? Just look at what they are already spending money on. So that's the entire blueprint of how to build a VSL, very simplified. You have individual pieces that you assemble in a strategic order, just like Lego blocks. You snap all those little pieces together in the exact right order. Now, to properly organize them, you always use a blueprint, a brief to map them out Step-by-step. And right before you actually fill out that brief, you absolutely need to run market and audience research, where your absolute best source will always be

the offers currently crushing it in your exact niche. If you don't have existing offers in your niche, you can leverage AI to help uncover pain points, desires, and various behavioral hooks. Uh-huh. well man, I want to dive into that, you know? but, just to make it crystal clear for the audience, right? what exactly is the difference between the audience and the market? Just so people get it. Man, the difference between audience and market is this: when looking at the market, you analyze what angles competitors are using, the promises, and the mechanisms. You look directly at

what products people are selling out there. Basically, with the market, you are looking at the technical angles they use to sell, essentially that marketing message. Now, with the audience, you look directly at core human nature. You map out their desires, pain points, the solutions they are actually looking for, and the deep problems faced by the people who are within that market. So these elements complement each other down the road because you'll see that people have specific desires, pains, and dreams, and the market delivers exactly what those people want. They intersect completely. That's why I mentioned

them together, because I view them as a single ecosystem. I don't see them as separate things. But if you have a cleaner definition, it might help the audience grasp it better. No, I don't. I think that's spot on. They are definitely distinct elements, right? One focuses on the avatar, and the other focuses on market dynamics. But— If we follow your advice, I mean, you capture both at once— in one go, you understand both sides. Exactly, yeah. If you analyze the VSLs that are currently crushing it, you basically get both, because you see the specific audience

being targeted and the market data. But I have a question, man. dude, do you really believe that when we are analyzing the market, we should only look at VSLs, or can we actually look at other funnel types, or maybe even content strategy? You know, what's your own honest take on that? Man, I believe that if you want to be more accurate, look at VSLs. If you can't find any VSLs, then look at other types of content. Like viral content, sometimes. You're an expert, you put out a piece of viral content, and you notice that specific

topic, man, it's really interesting. That topic can become an angle for a lead to use in your VSL opening, it can become an angle for an ad, so you can build a hook based on that. So that's highly useful, but it's secondary. Uh-huh. The primary step is to see what worked in the exact same sales format. If a person wants to be more accurate, they have to look at VSLs. Secondary, okay, you didn't find any VSLs in your niche? Start looking at content, things that are going viral right now on social media based on content

strategy. Or, let's say, a sales page you found in the same niche that is crushing it. But the biggest issue with that is you have to be absolutely certain it's crushing it. If it's a piece of content, it has to be viral, it needs to have massive views, something like that. and like, If it's a sales page, you must be sure it's driving serious traffic to that sales page. So today there are tools, right? The... there's one in particular where you can track page traffic. SimilarWeb? Similarweb. Because if a person just takes... any random thing

they see and they just believe it's interesting and start using it, they're going to screw themselves over. So they have to validate that data source first: 'Man, this is going viral, this is really selling, this page or this content is taking off.' Then I can take That and test it as an angle, as an element inside the VSL, so... it's possible. But I would stick to VSLs, okay? It's the best source. Uh-huh. And dude, look, we have, like, since you're a coral belt in this game, okay? c'mon man. You are not a black belt, right?

You passed the black belt level a long time ago, you see? You've already won everything there is to win, you brought home all the trophies. Like, honestly, I think that I also, you see... I know a fair amount about this stuff, regarding how we can do this type of market research in a, uh... a really complete way. Yes. And we have the connections and a lot of growth hacks, guys, for you who are just starting out now, the white belts in the room. There is a real complexity to this, like getting out there and checking

the actual page URL to know that this specific address belongs to that exact person, and all that. There's a whole detailed process to it. Because it's very important to have this benchmark and know what's happening. Yes. Like, the guys in the direct response world, and you know this, right? if this reference research isn't done right, the guy doesn't eat at the end of the month, dude. The company will go under. This has to be extremely well executed. But that's you, who's a coral belt. The white belt who's just starting out, the expert, the co-producer, who

is entering this world and, like, they're learning these concepts right now. How do they manage, dude? I mean, how do they find these high-performing VSLs that are actively running right today, which is the absolute gold standard, the true State of the art, like, the best possible research they can ever do? How do they find them since they aren't in our shoes? Man, I get it. There are three simple ways I would use. The first one is leveraging spy tools available on the market today. There's DeepTube, there are several software tools you can use to spy

and track down offers that are converting, ad creatives that are scaling hard, because those ads will always lead you directly to the winning offers. So spy tools would be the simplest approach, right? There's Guru Killer and plenty of others too. The second way is using the Facebook Ad Library because it's incredibly useful for this and it's simple to search. So you can look up things using keywords. So like, your niche is... let's say, you're a nutritionist and you teach people how to lose weight. So you can type in weight loss, lose weight, shed pounds, or

lose fat right there, and a few mentions will pop up showing ads that might be scaling hard. Then, based on the page itself and the total volume of active ads you see running under that page, you can easily tell if it's working. Go look up Guto Galamba in the ad library, you'll see like 300 active ads. Man, if he's running 300 ads, 300 creatives right there, it means the machine is running hot, right? And even more so in the expert game—in the traditional direct response game, seeing a lot of ads doesn't always mean the person

is scaling, but with experts it does, because they usually run way fewer ads, you know? You have to record them with the expert's face—They don't have the trickery to...like, run hundreds of ads just to try and throw someone off. Yeah, they don't do that. So if a Person is running a ton of ads there, honestly, they are definitely scaling. So that's the second way. And the third way is a swipe file. Why? Because I believe market intelligence is built when you understand what worked in the past and what is working in the present, because then

you get a clear sense of what will likely work in the future. So you can sort of predict what's going to happen based on what already happened before and what's happening right now. Tiago, sorry for constantly cutting you off, but explain to the audience, to the white belts, what exactly is a swipe file? A swipe file is a master archive that the world's greatest copywriters popularized, right? But it's an archive every elite copywriter keeps. In this file, you store The highest-converting copy assets. So some people sort it by niches, some sort it by sales pages,

ads, VSLs, there are multiple ways to organize it. The main thing is that you have your own swipe file, okay? Your archive in a Google Drive, where everything you see scaling and killing it, you drop into that folder. So it's something that is absolutely essential. It's impossible to get consistent results without keeping a swipe file. It's virtually impossible, you see? because fine, you might write a lucky piece of copy, a lucky VSL that crushes it once, sure, it happens. But if you want to craft multiple VSLs that hit, month after month, you will need a

repository to get inspired, to pull ideas for guarantees, to see how people structure guarantees, how they position an offer, what hook I could use Here, what ad angle I could run. All these ideas don't just pop into our heads out of nowhere. They appear because we've read thousands of copies. So, how am I able to review a script today—and I believe you're the same way—and know instantly if that copy will sell or not? How? Man, because I've read thousands of copies. By reading thousands of pieces of copy, I have the pattern of the copy that

sells the most hardwired into my brain. When I read a copy, if I see it doesn't fit that pattern of thousands of pieces of copy that have made millions that I've already read, I immediately say, 'Man, this probably won't work' because it's completely outside the pattern I've seen across thousands of pieces of copy that have generated millions. Yes. So that's how it works. It's all about recognizing those patterns. And a person will only learn those patterns by reading copy, which is why it's highly critical to read copy. For someone who's just the expert, they probably

won't spend their time doing that, but it's good for them to know it exists so they can pass it along to their strategist, their co-producer, or their copywriter: 'Man, study this, read this, it's going to give you way more ideas.' Yes, without a doubt, man. And if I had to say one thing, I don't know if you agree, right? But I would say that, like, again, dude, just to see how critical this reference part is, right? If there's one thing the guy needs to read, dude, it's the VSL that is currently scaling in his exact

niche. Because if your VSL doesn't look like that template right there, dude. Exactly. —like, chances are it's going to bomb. Man, my personal... shout out to my personal trainer Thiago. I finally found a good trainer, dude. really? Thiagão is great, he's top-tier, man, he does everything perfectly, the guy is a beast. But as good as he is as a trainer, he is that bad at writing VSLs. He knows it, though. That's cold. I told him: Man, find a top VSL in your niche and model it. So he went out and found the top VSL, and

he told me: 'Ah, I modeled it.' I asked him: 'Did you model it?', 'I modeled it, man.' So I said: 'Alright, send over your script.' He sent the VSL, I took it, did a Ctrl+C into Word, and the guy's script was 2,000 words long. Weird. Right, so then I said: 'Give me the benchmark VSL you modeled it after.' He sent it to me: seven thousand words. Oh my god! I was like: 'Damn it, Thiagão, are you kidding me, man?' That's something that is so simple, but man, people completely miss it. I analyze this heavily. I

break down the word count, João, section by section when I'm modeling a VSL. So, say the competitor's mechanism is 1,500 words, I'm not going to write a 3,000-word mechanism. I'm going to keep it close to that. If the offer block is, say, 2,000 words, I'm not going to make mine 4,000, you know? So that is very important, to model as close as possible to the exact structure the person used, but also matching the pacing and length of each section, man. If a 20-minute VSL is crushing it in your niche, you don't need to write a

40-minute one, man. You already have a 20-minute winner right there. Especially, if you're a white belt, man. If you aren't even, like, a blue belt yet, you know? Man— The more moves a person makes, changing things up, the worse it is for them, right? They're just pushing themselves further away from the results. More chances of it bombing. So, man, again, once you absolutely have that winning reference and you find it, it's very smart to do something similar. Something that doesn't really change things up that much at all. And I want to share two resources here,

okay? Before we move on to the next step, because, man, this whole spy thing and doing research, we actually have a podcast here at VTurb, right? It's Fogaça's podcast on spying, which will Pop up on the screen right now, guys. So it's a whole podcast just about this part of finding references. you see? And regarding Swipe Files, we have Swiper here in Brazil, which is a Swipe File platform. So, put the logo up on the screen Thiago. The funny thing is I have two Thiagões here. There's the video editor, and then there's you. So Thiago

Rafael, okay? I'll switch it. Thiago, just put up. Tiagão, it's going to be the Tiagão here. The original one right here, since you were the first guy I talked to. And we have Swiper, and there's also Bruno Monteiro's podcast. He used to be a programmer, then CTO at Empiricus, and later transitioned into copywriting. He's a real beast, and his podcast will also pop up on the screen. So you guys have those two references right there. And man, there's something people do a lot that I think is cool to talk about too, which... I don't know

if you think this is interesting, but, it would be about the guy thinking about how his audience behaves on social media, so he buys a burner phone, and pretends to be that specific audience so the algorithm on Instagram and TikTok.. Recommends, right? Recommends those funnels. I think that's actually a very interesting thing to do. I mean, back when I used to do spy research, that's how I did it, because you get to see in practice what's rolling out there. You join groups, right, that your audience would join, you know? You can control a lot of

variables that way. You simulate the behavior right there, and Instagram itself will start feeding you those things, like, the funnels for you to look at. But imagine I found a few references there, okay? I'm a white belt, and dude, I found references for VSLs in my niche, because Pedrinho is scaling, and whoever else, right? I have a good idea of what the niche looks like. and what kind of promises people are throwing out there, and what mechanisms are happening right there, you know? then at that specific moment, do you recommend that the white belt should

already start writing and building his own VSL right away, or what? No, man, I don't think so. I believe he needs to look at everything, analyze it, And break it down into blocks. Into those blocks I mentioned: offer, mechanism, story and lead. So, it's like, How is he going to identify those blocks right there, Tiagão? Assuming he's a white belt and doesn't know his way around. Because you know the Coral belt way. But for a white belt, what is he going to look for? Some say the lead is just the very beginning, others say it

goes until right before the story. Man, there's a pattern across the highest-converting VSLs. You'll see they usually follow this exact framework. Are there VSLs that break this pattern? Yes, but it's rarer, it's an exception to the rule. So, if you want to write a VSL that sells, just follow what we're talking about here. Simply that, it's enough for you to make a VSL that will pull 100k a Day, seven figures a month. The pattern is this structure. Most of them, 90% of the VSLs on the market today follow this structure, which we were the ones

to popularize, because before, you'd see people using Jon Benson's structure, using other random frameworks where the order was completely crazy, like the story was in the middle of the thing, content in the middle of the mechanism, some really weird stuff like that. So nowadays, man, 90% of the VSLs running on the market usually have this structure. And what is this structure? It's going to have a hook, curious opening, where usually there's a promise. like, it will have that promise, it will build heavy curiosity about what's in the rest of the video, hooking the viewer. So

you promise a few things that will happen later in the video for the person. You create a benefit, you pitch multiple Benefits right there during that lead. Sometimes you touch on the pain points, you talk about their specific problem briefly right there in the script. And it will hit a point where you'll notice the VSL completely stops making promises and talking about benefits, and it starts talking about the expert himself. Then he introduces himself, "my name is so-and-so, I have experience in this." Yeah, usually he will list all of his credentials right there. So usually,

this baseline structure that 90% of people use, boom, that's when you enter the story. You left the lead. The lead is the introductory phase, it has to be extremely sexy, it has to be curious, it has to drive heavy engagement. The moment the person starts talking about themselves, their journey, their track record, they've entered the story phase. It will hit a point where this person will stop talking about their story and they will start teaching Something more technical, you get it? At that moment, it's time for the mechanism, when the person starts teaching something more

technical right there in the VSL. They will explain how the method works. So they'll explain: "the method works like this, it works like that, this is what you have to do, it's this right here," or they will give some valuable content. That's when the mechanism happens. And after that, there will be a time when they pitch the product, when they say: "so I created the 30-Day Income Method, where I'm going to show you how to make money in 30 days with this and that method, etc, etc." That part enters the offer block. So, you have

to break the VSL down into blocks, and you'll see that 90% of the VSLs running on the market already have this separation naturally. You just have to clearly identify where each part begins and where it ends, you see? The Story will usually lean into credibility, authority, and it will tell the person's entire journey. So, it started focusing heavily on that, usually you're in the story section. The lead will be more curiosity, benefits, promises. The mechanism part is the more technical part, it's the part that actually packs the most content, where the person learns something or

understands how the method works, and the offer part is when they mention the product. So if you break the VSL into four little blocks like that, it becomes much easier for you to identify when one starts, when one ends, and based on that, we're going to understand that concept of stacking Lego bricks and all that, you know? So it's this beginning phase. Man, do you think people, like, have real trouble doing this, out of all The people you talk to, from your experts out there? Since you're teaching more nowadays, right? I know that, during the

opening, in the lead, there are times when we say, when we say our name. for example, "Look, today I'm learning this and that, if you're looking at this for the very first time, you might think I'm lying about this, my name is so-and-so, I also thought it was a lie, but it's 100% real, etc. So we can still introduce ourselves during the lead. Yes, variations exist, but man, you want an easy formula to figure this out? AI helps a lot with this nowadays. So, AI helps... Man, I actually have a copy block extraction template. So,

I can open it up for the guys. We can drop the link. Really? Yeah, because it Extracts... Can I send people to your Instagram? yeah, you can send them. What's the keyword we should use, by the way? Template, it can be template. Okay. Look guys, your Instagram is The Filemon, right? The Filemon. Guys, it's going to pop up on the screen, okay? Tiagão's Instagram is The Filemon, I think it's The dot Filemon. Dot Filemon. The dot Filemon will show up right there. And then you guys DM the word template, understand? Type the key word template,

and you'll receive that free document right there so you can run this block extraction on the VSLs you find, so you can start understanding things right away and become a much sharper white belt out there. and man, for sure, this tool helps a ton, because basically it's a prompt that helps extract the information from the copy and separates it by category: Look, This part is the lead, this is the story, this is the offer, detail the offer, the offer has this many bonuses, the price point is this. So the person won't even need to read

an entire VSL line by line. They'll be able to, on a single page, get that extraction right there, those blocks already dissected for them, you see? Uh-huh. And dude, one tip I would give people to maybe, check if they're moving in the right direction, I think...and you correct me if I'm wrong, right? But in terms of word count, that beginning phase right there, the lead, will be around four hundred to eight hundred words, give or take. The story will be around that too, about four hundred to eight hundred words. The mechanism will be somewhere between

fifteen hundred and three thousand words. That's the heaviest part—along with the offer, right? And the offer, like, three thousand and up, roughly. Just the lead I would say is shorter nowadays. There's a trend where the lead is more compact, you know? You see that most leads usually don't have that many words, so they are smaller than the ones we used to write. Yeah, today I'd say a lead will have around 300 words. Short huh? It's a bit shorter, like 200 depending on the hook. In theory, I don't think the person can mess up. Especially with

AI. With AI, it's going to be easy. But man, once they've done that, they've separated several VSLs out there, the white belt, and then... There's a step before that. It might be good to tell the guys. You're going to Find a VSL, you find a page that has a video sales letter that's scaling hard. I don't know, say you found Cariani's. Uh, you're going to have to transcribe that specific video. So yeah, it's good to tell the guys, you transcribe that video, there are countless AI tools that do it. Google it, you'll find a bunch.

Transcribe that video, it turns into a massive block of text, I don't know how many pages long, then take that, feed it into the AI and paste this prompt. Nice. Precisely so we can get that absolute gold standard, which is the richest material possible that's working and scaling right now, which will be the sum of promises, proof, curiosity angles, along with market data and the mechanism, which is the best research you can do. I mean, Ultimate market research. Then I put that Together. Do you recommend doing this with how many VSLs? One, two, three, as

many as possible? Three, three at the most. Three VSLs in that specific niche, so we manage to successfully get three different VSL structures from your market, you know? And then I have that document, completely separated and nicely categorized. This is the lead of the first, second, and third; the story of the first, second, and third. Everything is perfectly lined up. And dude, that opens the door to so many things. I'm going to identify patterns right there if I read it, I'll understand how the guy structured this or structured that, you see? for the white belt,

what do you think is his next step so he can finally produce his first VSL, something that, is at least baseline good? Well, man, the first step, after that, is for you to identify the invisible structure of that copy. Because like, and what is that? The invisible structure is a structure inside that structure, because the baseline framework already exists: lead, story, mechanism, and offer. A structure inside the structure, man? Damn. Yeah, exactly. It's because inside the lead, for example, there are specific elements, you know? It's not actually a structure, it's elements within a structure. Those

elements are the copy itself. So a lead, for example, I can simply start it by throwing out a big promise, or I could start it by directly leaning into the pain points, or I could start it by showing some proof, like a customer testimonial. So, there are different ways to start using that. Each of these things is categorized, it's an essential element. And if you identify those elements, you can build your lead following that same lead, you can build your story following that same story, and so on. So the person won't need to worry so

much about the framework, about the rigid step-by-step process right there, because the exact step-by-step they need, they will extract it directly from the VSL's structure, you see? There is this baseline structure, but there are elements within that structure that if they follow, they can make a VSL that sells a lot, because what makes a VSL sell is the way everything is put together, you get it? So they identify, for instance, look, I identified that there's a testimonial at the beginning. Boom, how do I do this? Google Docs, uh... Google Docs. AI can also help a

lot with this, but I like doing it myself so I can mark every single point, because sometimes the AI will lose track. Google Docs. So I have the lead right here, okay. This element right here, man, is a testimonial. Just drop a little comment saying "testimonial." Then, there's a promise right here. Drop a little comment saying "promise." Man, now he has a specific benefit. Drop a little comment saying "benefit." By the end of the lead, I'll have, let's say, five, six, or eight elements, and I'll know, look, this is the exact order I need to

use. I start with a testimonial, Then I make a promise, then I talk about benefits, then I touch on the pain points, and boom, my entire lead is done. So this is called the invisible structure, it's widely used by Americans, and many Brazilians don't even clue it exists. But it's a way for you to model a piece of copy that's selling like crazy, adapting it to your niche, to what you're doing right there, and you will follow the exact same order, because what makes a piece of copy sell is the sequence in which the information

is presented. So if you place the information in a specific order, it will sell. If you don't, it won't sell, or it has a very minimal chance of selling. So, the baseline framework is lead, story, mechanism, and offer. Within that baseline framework, there are elements. You will identify what those elements are And you will write your copy according to those elements. If it starts with a testimonial, I'll start with a testimonial. If it starts with a promise, I'll drop a promise. If it talks about the pain now, then I'll touch on the pain points. So

it makes it incredibly easy for the person to use the exact same thing, you know? They use the same elements that the other person used. And it doesn't need to be with the same words, it can be different words, what matters is the sequence. dude, let me ask you a question about this, and it's even a personal doubt of mine, and, you know, I think the white belts out there will benefit from this too. Yeah, the first time I saw this concept, man, of invisible structure and all that, I saw it in a book called

"The Copywriting Crash Course." Yeah dude, you sent that book over. Remember that? It's going to pop up on the screen right now, guys, the cover of the book is a PDF, right? I think I can make it available here in the comments section as well for anyone who's curious, if there's a copywriter watching or if you just want to learn a bit more, it'll be right there. It talked a bit about that. And then later came Alen Sultanic, who used this term invisible structure, and all that, and the reasoning I understood, which I don't know

if it's real, I wanted to get your opinion, right? But it's basically that this works because, like, what defines a niche is a group of people who share the exact same desire. Yes. And those people who share the same desire, let's say, to lose weight are part of the weight loss niche, right? and they have the exact same objections because it's a similar audience. Yes. So they think the same way, they're afraid of the same things, they want the same benefits, and they have the same objections. Oh, they want to lose weight, but they don't

want to exercise, they don't want to stop eating, they don't want a whole bunch of things. So that's why this invisible structure stuff works, because you see what objections that specific niche has, and in what exact order they have them. So regardless of the content you put out there to crush those objections, since you'll be killing the objections in that exact same order, it tends to work. Do you think that's the explanation for it, man, or is there something else I don't Know and you do? Just so the folks at home understand the reason why

the invisible structure works. Man, no, I completely agree with that, and there's another theory too that Alen Sultanic himself uses, which is very interesting, where he says it works incredibly well when you write your copy and include things in your VSL, for example, that are arguments you would convince yourself with. So, man, then he gives a few examples there. So, let me give you an example. There was a time when I wanted to learn about real estate auctions. I started researching multiple auction experts, I started going through everyone's Instagram and looking up YouTube videos and

searching. Man, I want to find a badass guy to teach me about real estate auctions. And then, I started asking myself: Man, what am I actually looking for in this guy? Like, what is the single element that if this guy shows it to me, I will buy from him on the spot? And I found the answer. What was the answer? I want to see a guy who has tons of students who have already scored properties at auctions and made insane money, like, they made an absolute killing in profits, multiplying their cash big time. So, that

was the perfect case study I had in my head. I said: "If I find this guy, I'm buying." After a few days of researching, I found a guy whose Instagram was nothing but testimonials from people who bought properties there, learned from him, and they were landing great opportunities. Man, I bought from that guy. So, I saw that this type of argument is extremely powerful, I could use it in my copy, and I did use it in my copy, you see? So you look for the type of argument That would convince you and you use it

too, because it's a great indicator of what works, since there's a universal structure that drives people to make decisions. You see that the hero's journey, for example, is exactly that, it's used in so many different things, not just for selling, but for movies, entertainment, and it works flawlessly anyway, you get it? So there are universal elements. And the invisible structure within a niche is even more powerful, because it really taps into that collective unconscious of people who have a specific pain point and want to solve that problem, they think more or less the same way,

their daily routine is pretty much similar, they resemble each other in multiple aspects. So when you place those arguments in the correct order, a proven order, man, that copy has already generated 10 million. So if I follow that sequence of the invisible structure, my copy has a much higher chance of selling, because it will break the exact same objections, just in my own way. I don't need to write, to translate it word for word. I can simply use it right there, oh, is it a testimonial? Okay, so I'll place a testimonial this way. Oh, is

it a promise? Okay, so I'll make my promise, which doesn't have to be identical, you know? So, yeah, I think it works exceptionally well because of that too. Uh-huh. Interesting, man. And another question I think the folks at home will have, is that... once I've actually done that, and like, I see that we have, let's say, three distinct VSLs I found, right? and I'm going to extract the invisible structure from each one of them. Yes. Once I have that clear invisible structure from each one of them, like, they will... they might have similarities, but I

think they're always going to change a little bit from one another. so how am I going to choose which one to use, or do I actually combine them? No, no, combining them is not ideal, you should pick one. I would go with the one that sold the most. If you don't have the information on which one sold the most, which one is the simplest? It's Occam's razor, usually when you're in doubt about making a decision, the simplest choice is the best one. So that's the benchmark I would use to make that call. I would take

the VSL that sold the most and follow its structure. The other one I would use purely as a study tool to understand more about the pain points, the desires, or if there's something different in the offer that would be cool To use in mine, fine. But structurally, I'd pick the top seller. In case I don't know if all of them are scaling hard and I don't know which one sold more, I'd pick the easiest to understand. The one I read and go, 'man, this is simple, I got it all, looks interesting.' I'd pick that one."

Yeah, I think using your own taste—saying, 'Man, what would actually convince me?' Just like you said—that's a great idea, right? Yes, absolutely. Because there's no exact science to this, you know? There is no exact science. And once we've done that, then I'll have a clear view of, like, of which VSLs are performing best in my specific niche. Consequently, I get a great sense of what promises I need to make. Which proof elements actually work for that audience, meaning, what they truly believe in. Whether it's a testimonial, a demonstration, or, well, tons of other things. and

I'll also get an idea of what mechanisms people are using out there. And I will see their offer, right? so from that, I get the invisible structure of all those offers, and I will choose one of them, which basically will be the baseline structure to build my VSL, you see?— like, my very first offer. Yes. Uh-huh. Man, for the white belt out there, right? Who is at home, maybe a co-producer, an expert, whatever, and he did this whole process and is watching us right now, paused the video and said, 'Okay, I have my business here,

now what?' What does he do next to move forward and put together his very first VSL? Perfect. He already understands the market, and along with that, the audience, because he picked a validated VSL. He already started putting together the briefing, meaning, we talked about the offer here, so he already knows what he's going to sell to these people. Now, he's going to take that whole structure he saw in the blocks and build his own. And the best way for him to do this is by simply using the information he has right there. For example, with

the story, he will take the story structure he found in that VSL and insert his own story right into that framework. Of course, using the facts that happened to him, with everything being completely congruent with his reality. But that's it. So, from the moment you know, look: the story starts by telling a hard time he went through, then it goes to this phase, and here he almost gave up. Generally, It's going to follow a hero's journey. It's usually a hero's journey, which is pretty simple. And the moment he follows this hero's journey structure, he'll be

able to have a story similar to that person's, adapted to his own niche. It doesn't need to be an identical story. See, the biggest mistake I see people make when they model is trying to make it exactly the same. It doesn't have to be identical, it just needs to follow the exact same order. So you can say it differently, you can use different phrases, but it has to follow the same order of the argument. So if the story starts with something sad and moves toward a life-changing moment, man, your story will follow that same path

based on what happened to you. Because, like—think about a life story. Think about your life story, João. It has So many different angles. You can take a sad phase, you can take a phase of great happiness, you can take multiple different angles of your life story, it's massive. The expert can do this too, so he can easily snapshot just the specific phase he needs to put in the VSL, because that's the exact one that will work best to convert. And then he'll build the map, the briefing, he'll build it based on that. Look, now it's

time for the story. He already defined the offer, he defines the mechanism—we can dive a bit deeper into the mechanism later since it's more complex. But as for the story part, man, he's simply going to follow the hero's journey that the original VSL, which already sells a lot, has. And it goes right here, move there, go here, go there. So I'm going to fit my story inside this structure. It's something relatively simple when it comes To the story part. Without a doubt. The story part is, I think, I mean, I think is the simplest part.

Do you think so too? Yeah, I think so too. And let me ask you a question, man... you who are teaching these guys, since you are in close contact with them, right? Do you believe, um... that it's a good idea for these people, I mean, not to tell their own story necessarily, in case they don't have the kind of story that— That connects, right? uh-huh. this conexion. But dude, simply telling a story first, you see? So, for example, in the VSL, we would have something like: 'Look, I'm John Doe, I went to college for this,

I did that, I helped so many people achieve This result. But it wasn't always like this, I used to be that, I suffered through this, tried a bunch of things, nothing worked until I discovered this method right here, it's pretty much going to be that. Uh-huh. and if the guy doesn't have that rock-bottom moment, he could say something sort of like this: 'Look, I'm John Doe, these are my results, and I know exactly what you're going through.' Maybe you are dealing with this or that. Maybe you've tried this, that, and the other thing, and it

all failed. Maybe you've even literally hit rock bottom deep down and faced this insanely painful massive problem right here head-on. I know this because I see it time and time again with the people I help. But I know one thing that can change that, which is this method right here.' In that case, man, for the expert, we wouldn't use his personal story. It would just be a story, a relatable scenario. Yes, because sometimes his story just won't fit. Yeah. Do you think that's valid? Is it superior to the guy's own story, or inferior? What do

you think? The best story is always your own story. It's proven. The best story you can use in your VSL is your own story. There are a few ways you can handle it. If, for instance, let's say, it's a nutritionist teaching a weight loss method and she was never overweight, then there's no way to tell her own story, but she can tell the story of one of her patients. So that's a secondary option that absolutely works. I actually think It's better than the option you just mentioned. Uh-huh. Because, man, look: 'I've never been through this,

I've always been thin, but I'm going to tell you the story of someone who suffered a lot with it. 'She was my patient,' and man, you start telling the story of Mary, who is her patient. So she can easily tell that story. In case the person doesn't have their own story, and doesn't have a successful client or patient story, or anyone they've actually helped, they can simply tell the story of how they first discovered the method themselves. So that's the alternative, the third alternative, in case she has no emotional story to tell following the hero's

journey. Then she tells the story of how she discovered the method. Like: 'I'm Jane Doe, and so-and-so.' And then she shares this journey of discovering the method. Uh-huh. So it's A story that is highly important to have in the VSL as well. yeah dude, I think, right? That this section right here, like, what we need to do so the folks at home understand, is show that we actually know our stuff—that's why we talk about credentials, like, my results are this and that, etc. And the second step is to show that we truly understand the life

of the person watching us. Yes. Which is why we say, 'Look, I know what you're going through, I went through the same thing.' Because by doing that, we kill two objections. The first one is: who exactly are you to tell me this? Why should I ever believe you? And the second is: okay, but why will this work for my specific case? Do you Agree with that? I agree. Those are the primary goals of the story. So if it does that, it already meets the criteria. And if she uses one of these three types of stories,

she will usually be able to overcome those specific objections. uh-huh, I got it. So guys, it's not rocket science, right? it's simple, and honestly, I think they probably have a good grasp of this part because they already use it, right? Exactly. And honestly, man, they might even know more than we do about this because they're really good at it, but it can also become a problem if they try to over-innovate and stuff more things into the story than they actually should. sometimes something simple Just works better, right? Exactly, you have to respect the format, what's

currently working, and just follow the exact process you're talking about here. Yeah, and just like you said at the beginning, the story is usually a very small part of the VSL. You can't spend too much time telling your life story, because the viewer's main interest isn't knowing your life, it's simply breaking those objections. Why are you teaching me this? Why should I listen to you? Why are you an authority to tell me this? I even see it, man, like I don't know if you agree with me, but I see it as a necessary evil of

the funnel, right? That's it. Because you have to crush those objections as fast as possible, but that's not what's going to make the sale, what sells is the rest of it. But if you don't go through this, it doesn't sell. So we have to pass through it, but as quickly as possible. Yes. That's why it's great to look once again at the niche reference, like, the invisible structure of that niche, and do exactly that, at the very maximum. no more than that, right? Right, because sometimes it's going to be something very simple, man, like the

story is only two hundred words. Dude, you don't need to over-invent, you'll make a very short story too because you see the niche doesn't demand more. You do what the niche requires, right? And what it demands is what people are already buying. that was exactly the mistake Thiago made, you see? my personal trainer. I'm Actually going to send him this podcast episode so he can watch it. Because he came to me with his story. and then, when I looked at it, his VSL had two thousand words. The benchmark was seven thousand, so I said, 'Damn,

that's not gonna work.' It already went wrong. But look, Tiago, just do this, man, you get it? Look at the baseline VSL, if the story is eight hundred words, five hundred words, yours should be too, brother. There's no reason to change it—you're a white belt, with all due respect, but you know you are. And there's nothing wrong with that, everyone started there, I did too. So just do that, keep it as simple as possible, you know? But yeah, after that, right? Imagine he took that, did it, and now he has a story, a minimal story

there that perfectly follows the niche structure. And he has that little section all ready, which I assume will be sitting right Inside your document that you call the map, right? Yes. What does he do next? Man, I'd say it's the mechanism part, right? Because we kind of skipped the story. Actually, we build the mechanism first because it matters more. But since we already have a structural reference there, this order is just a matter of... I mean... It doesn't matter that much for this part. Yeah, it doesn't matter much for this part. only this, right? yeah,

only. Other parts do matter. Other parts matter. But it would be the mechanism now. And the mechanism is the explanation of your method, it's the thesis that explains why your method works, why it's better than the others, and why it's ideal for the prospect. So, Now it's time for that part. Uh-huh. Dude, can you give us a few more details here for the people who don't know what a mechanism actually is. Like, you already mentioned a bit about it being the method and all. So try to make that a whole lot clearer for the audience.

I think if we call it a marketing thesis, it's way easier to understand, because that's the part where the main argument of your copy lives. The absolute biggest argument to convince the person that your product will actually work for them. If the prospect believes in the marketing thesis, then you will succeed, or at least you have a massive chance of winning them over as a client. If they don't believe it, it doesn't matter, the product could be the best, it could have the absolute best price, the person won't care, because everything relies on their belief

in this specific block of the copy, right? It's a section That traditional copywriters used to call the proof section, you know? So you see that, the guys at Empiricus used to rely solely on the proof block, which is the part that contains the heaviest weight of proof elements. And what is the single biggest element of proof? The reason why—the exact motive. The reason why this specific method will work for the person right now. So, the marketing thesis serves precisely for that, to explain to the prospect why your method is superior, why it will work for

them, and why they should choose you over anyone else. So it's that exact explanation, that thesis, right? Uh-huh. That thesis, dude, that exact explanation of the method, why it works, and all—there is a whole bunch of things we can do here. And there's one question That I think the folks at home might have, right? and then you can just tell me about the guys you talk to out there, you know, from your own hands-on day-to-day work with them, you see? But once we complete this process of extracting the invisible structure, we are going to have

the actual structure of the mechanism right there. Yes. Since we are using this term, marketing thesis, which is the explanation of the mechanism, the actual written copy itself. Man, with this little block here, right, we're gonna see: okay, the guy explained what the root cause of the problem is, and so on. We're going to do this analysis and completely understand how the guy's mechanism works. Can we just do this and translate this mechanism here, line by line, into a Brand new mechanism for the specific expert we are building the VSL for, or will he have

to be extra creative here and invent a brand new thesis? The moment creativity enters the mix, things start getting a bit more complicated, right? Yes, I believe the second alternative is much better, because there are mechanisms that if it's a highly similar offer, you can just look at it like this. If you're selling the exact same thing, right? if you're selling the same offer in that niche, it's just an easy tweak. You just say: 'I can use a very similar explanation to his to demonstrate why my method is better.' But honestly, many times it won't

be that simple, because the mechanism is genuinely a more creative part of the process. And I would use the logical points there, which is the exact concept I learned from you, and it's the most valuable part of the mechanism. In my Opinion, it's all about organizing your argument logically with those points right there. And from the moment you organize that argument, then you write it out. So, you are going to organize it point by point: 'Look, let's say, I want to explain to you why my Bitcoin course is the best.' I won't even mention a

course yet, because in a VSL we never talk about the product ahead of time. So I'll say: 'Look, there is a method, my specific method, and it helps you get massive results with Bitcoin because of this and because of that.' So let's begin the explanation. After you tell the story, now it's time for the mechanism part. I could start by telling you, for example: 'Man, look, you already know that cryptocurrencies are assets that are highly risky, but they also have an absolutely insane upside.' And then you start showing the person multiple case Studies of cryptocurrencies

that exploded and literally made people millionaires. So, this, for example, could be the very first logical point of my thesis, you see. like, I start by showing multiple opportunities. And then, right after that, I show: 'Look, but now, in 2026, there is the single biggest opportunity of the century when it comes to Bitcoin. And why? Because, look, Bitcoin has its ups and downs. And since it recently had a massive drop... This right here, for example, is already the second one: 'Now the greatest opportunity of 2026 exists.' It's already the second logical point, the second step

of my argument. Bitcoin is built on ups and downs, and since it's been down lately, it means a massive spike is coming. Why? Because this pattern exists. Then you set it up—boom, that could be yet another logical point in my argument. You see how you keep structuring your argument into logical points that make complete sense. The prospect thinks, 'Man, truly.' So it dropped like crazy, but when it dropped back in 2017, right after that it shot up and was the biggest bull run ever. When it dropped in 2021, the person goes: 'Man, that makes perfect

sense. Why is this going to happen?' And then you throw in some element of novelty, explain why Bitcoin is going to rise and be bigger than previous times and so on. So that's why now is the best time to buy Bitcoin. And to buy Bitcoin, you have to learn from me, and that's what my method teaches you. Just as an example. So I built a few logical points here that lead the person to arrive at a firm belief that buying Bitcoin right now is the best possible move, and to buy Bitcoin, I must learn from

this guy. So, this deep belief that you develop inside the person's mind, this clear confirmation, because the most powerful part of persuasion is when the person reaches the conclusion all by themselves. Not you convincing them. They convince themselves. They read through it, they consume the content, and they say: 'Man, this is the ultimate opportunity. I need to learn how to buy Bitcoin right now.' You get it? And who are they going to buy it from? From you, who is right there making the offer. You get it? So, this is one way for you to build

it, and it's the most effective way, okay? It's complex to explain this. You know exactly how complex it is. But look, for whoever is watching this, just listen to this. When I started working with you, when I started working with João Campos, I was a copywriter. And I analyzed all the patterns there, everything you did. When I accessed the files—the Google Docs, no, the Google Drive of the company, I started looking at the copies that had scaled hard and all, and I saw that every single copy that sold the most had these logical points. Every

single top-selling copy used this exact process of building a logical argument step-by-step to show why the person must believe that it's the absolute truth. When I saw that, I said to myself: 'Look, I will never write a single VSL again without using this right here.' Every VSL I've made to this day uses these logical points, because that gives an undeniable robustness to your argument, it becomes so strong, man, the person simply cannot disagree. At the very end, they will say: 'Look, this is exactly what I need, I absolutely have to learn this thing right here.'

And then you sell the course to them, and They buy it, you get it? So that's just an example of how I would build these logical points for a Bitcoin training or something similar. uh-huh. Man... In fact, it's one of the parts, if not the hardest part of the VSL, you know? This part is highly complex. because man, you must possess this specific skill to successfully build a solid logic and, like, install the belief directly into the person's head. The thing is, there isn't just one single right way and one wrong way. Well, actually, there

is indeed a wrong way, right? But there are ways that are much more correct than others. Yes. And less correct ones too, obviously. So that relies heavily on the copywriter's skill to pull this off. Well, dude, in your experience, like, what do you think are the biggest mistakes people make when you start teaching this section on logical points? Is it something related to the structure? Do you think that sometimes you need a specific type of person to do this because it's a...like, it's a harder process to execute, like the person has to be smarter or

have a higher cognitive level? I don't know if you believe that. Man, I believe that in copy in general, usually those who succeed the most are the ones with a higher cognitive ability, that's just a fact. But no, the person doesn't need to be a super-genius to do this. They just need to think simple, because the biggest mistake I see is people overcomplicating this part. Then they start creating logical points—like, typically, what do we do? Let's say, five, six, eight logical points max to reach an argument. As an example, the person will create twenty, and

the argument will become extremely dense and complex, and they will just drift away in the logical points, you know? So stick to the simplest route, you don't need a lot of logical points. If you have five, six, at most eight logical points, explaining your thesis of why the method is better, step-by-step and so on, that's more than enough, you know? So the mistake is overcomplicating things. They see that the core concept is complex, and I think that makes them believe it has to be complex at the moment of execution. And no, you have to be

as simple as humanly possible. You get it? It has to be the most straightforward thing ever, because in the end, that will reflect directly on your copy. Your mechanism cannot be complex, it must be simple to understand. The complex part is the mental process you go through to build it, but not the execution itself. In execution, it's not complex; if you look at the mechanism, you'll see it's simple. But it was thought out, carefully architected to reach that specific conclusion, you know? Simplicity is the ultimate stage of complexity, isn't it? Yes. So I agree one

hundred percent with you. Hey, let me make a comment, and then I want you, like, I want you to give me a counterpoint. Try to argue either against me or maybe in favor, anyway, just comment on top of this. When I'm going to talk about this logical points concept to someone, like, for the very first time, ok? so you who are watching this, if you are a white belt, for example I tell the person that in this specific section, they have to... like, they have to do the following: They only have to prove two things,

right? First is what the person has to do; yeah. And then it's the how. like, And those two statements, what the person has to do and how to do it, will be the guide for my entire mechanism or marketing thesis section, you see? And the size of it, I mean... whether it'll be five hundred words, a thousand, or even two thousand, I'll take that right from the invisible structure, right? Yes. So if the guy's mechanism.... like, If the guy's mechanism over there has two thousand words, mine will have two thousand words too. And how do

I split that up? Maybe about half of it I'd talk about the how, like what to do, and then the second half, like how to do it. Yes. to give you a practical example, right? The offer I scaled the most was always rejuvenation, you know? So I always give this example because it's what I have the most, like, deep knowledge of. But I would tell someone in a VSL something like this: "Hey, look at this until, actually, hi, how's it going? Today I'm going to teach you how to look younger, watch until the end, because

this right here can give you this benefit." Obviously, guys, it would be much bigger than that, but that would be the lead. After that, I'd say: 'My name is João Campos, I'm a rejuvenation specialist, and I've helped multiple people look younger. That's the story. Then for the transition to the mechanism, I'd say: And now I'm going to show you, how to actually rejuvenate. And what did I really discover? I discovered that what you have to do... man, it is simply X. For example, Replenish Collagen. Right. And we prove that. Indeed, this specific university said so,

that other university said that. Look at this testimonial right here from Mariazinha, from this person, who managed to Replenish Collagen. And the size of that, I'll get it from the invisible Structure, right? Yes, you'll base it on the copy you are selling against. If there are two thousand words over there, and a thousand words make up the initial part, I will have a thousand words for this what-to-do, like what do I have to do? I have to Replenish Collagen. And once the person believes in what to do, then I move right to the second part

of the mechanism, which is how to do it. yeah. And then I'd continue the VSL. 'So, you understand that what you have to do is this right here, Replenishing Collagen, right? That's your 'what'?' The person will say: 'Got it, I'm totally convinced because of all the proof here, awesome.' Alright then, so how do you do it? Like, It's not with this or that, that's not the right way, because the right way to do it is always with this right here, with this specific type of collagen, with facial massages, anyway, with the exact thing that your

product will deliver later. Yes. And the size of that, the exact volume of proof elements you're going to put in, you'll take it from the invisible structure once again. Yes. So like, it's not the absolute best way to do it because we simplify things a lot, it basically has two logical points. yeah, that's how I think about it, but it's the easiest way to explain it. It's very simple. I don't look at it that way, but for someone starting out, I agree it's a very Easy way to apply it. What do you think would be...

like, I don't even know if you have one, you know? But for a white belt, man, for a guy who has never seen this before, I usually explain it this way because instead of having a bunch of logical points, I just have two. Yes. Like, what do you have to do? It's this thing. Then prove it. How much proof are you going to put in? Just enough to match the guy's mechanism. Ok. Now, what do you have to do? It's this right here. and how big is it? Exactly like the guy's mechanism. So he'll have

two logical points, a mechanism that'll be the same size as the market's mechanism. And like, it won't be, you know— It's not the best mechanism in the world, but it works. yeah, it won't be. But it won't be terrible. It definitely won't be terrible, you know? It'll at least look like the niche, it'll be hitting the exact points it needs to hit. having said that, do you have any other framework, anything else that the white belt watching us here, man, where he doesn't really necessarily have to go through this whole process of all these logical

points? and guys, it's not that you don't have to learn it, right? Because you have to learn it. If you want to get good, if you want to leave the white belt phase and become a blue belt, the 100K a day guy knows how to do this. The 100K a day guy doesn't do What I'm talking about here. He actually knows logical points, indeed, but for the white belt, what do you think, man? If I were, I mean, If I were a white belt watching this podcast, I would use the framework you just mentioned about

what to do and then how to do it, and I would fit logical points right inside that structure. What are logical points? It's simply having your argument follow a logic, a chain, being a chained argument. It starts here, goes there, goes over there, I don't know, you can put four logical points for the what-to-do, four logical points for the how-to-do. Just as an example. You can even reduce it, three for each, if the person needs to. But I would keep them because this chained logic is highly valuable in copy. I only learned this from you,

because when I looked at your copies, all of them Had this perfectly mapped out. And back when I learned this from you, I wasn't good at logic. So, I was better at the emotional part, benefits, pain points and stuff, but I wasn't good at the logical part. So much so that I wrote some things that made no sense, and you'd say: "Man, why did you write this? This makes no sense at all, it's completely incongruent here." So, I got good at logic when I learned this, this way of— and man, there's Plato, if I'm not

mistaken, there's a method of... like, an oratory method that involves something pretty similar to this. There's a concept of a chain of logic, you know? Uh-huh. So, either way, even if I did it the simple way like you said, I would fit it inside a chain that keeps leading the person to the next step, which leads to the next step, to the next, to the next, until they reach the final conclusion of: "man, I need this method, I need to do it this way." And then after that, I would try to combine them. It's just

that when we talk about it without actually showing how it looks, it gets more complex. But if the person sees a document on how logical points work, it becomes very clear: "ah, I get how it is." You know? So, the guys can ask me and I'll send a logical points document over on Instagram as well. It has multiple examples. Nice, dude. Can the keyword be points? It can be points. Or like... Logical points. But that's a bit much, right? like, maybe the guy will type it with an accent, without an accent... just points. Alright guys,

go over to Instagram, okay? At The dot Filemon and type points. Just write that, in the plural, exactly how it'll show up on the screen, and then Tiago will send you a file over there, okay? Some document. And also, guys, there's actually a lesson of mine on logical points too, okay? Whoever is interested, it will appear somewhere around here in the description, I don't know, you just click there and it takes you straight to this lesson that's on YouTube for free, where I talk a bit about it, so you have those two resources right there

for you to look at. Tiago's lesson is probably more complete than mine, mine is pretty superficial, but it's a resource for you, something cool. and about that, I personally consider that, if that specific part is very well done, I honestly think it's absolutely the hardest work a copywriter can ever do. Yes. Which is creating this argument, this thesis... very well made, you see? And.... Gary Bencivenga even recommended a book called Win Your Case by Gary..uh, Spence, something like that, you know? A lawyer, right? A lawyer, who used to say: "man, your copy has to be

so strong, so good, that you have to be able to convince the jury that your mechanism is actually real. And I read that book, put it on the screen Thiago, so the people can see it. Then, like, if you're a nerd who wants to, you know, learn a lot, check that out, okay? but, there's another document that can help the guys, which is from... from Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson, who is a speaker and a psychologist, right? He has a free, complimentary material that you can very easily find on Google about how to write an essay.

And man, just look how crazy that is, right? He doesn't even teach copy. But in this material, he teaches logical points in practice. He teaches logical points in a hands-on way. That's cool, man. And he is a great speaker. So it's really cool to learn that from him. and dude, did you know he is sick? That he is doing really bad right now? Seriously? He vanished from all social media and doesn't show up anymore. His daughter is the one acting as his spokesperson to the world. No way, man. I didn't know. Yeah man... like, he

is doing pretty bad, she says he is about to... really? At that level? About to pass away, yeah... According to her daughter, right. Sorry, his daughter. And yeah... anyway, that's it... I really didn't know that. But he is a cool guy, right, man? He is, yeah, there are several videos of him talking about the importance of Communicating well, you know, it's pretty cool. And this oratory material of his is really good because he teaches it, man, it's like a copy material. Like, 100% actionable. He teaches logical points, like how you build a good argument for

your thesis over there, something like that. Very good. He's incredibly badass, man. He changes a lot of people's lives. He gets canceled a lot too. But that's proof that he has a great message, you see? Yes. And hey guys, before we actually move forward with the episode here, I just really wanted to thank everyone who watches our channel and has already subscribed to it. Because, look, we managed to reduce the number of people who watch the videos here but don't subscribe from 65% all the way down to 38%. Our goal now is to reach that

30% mark. So, man, if you're enjoying the Scaling Secrets podcast here, if you want us to Keep bringing even more badass guests to deliver free content to you, man, check if you're already subscribed. If you're not subscribed, click that button to subscribe. It's fast, it's free, this helps the channel out tremendously because we can grow, gain more relevance, and then obviously the content here will always keep improving, alright? So, if you're not subscribed, go ahead and subscribe. And now back to the episode. But dude, once we have our story, okay? and like, once we did

it the simplest way possible. We have our mechanism, right? that we used the logical points, you know, looked at what the market is doing, put everything together. Again, like... If I say anything stupid, correct me, okay? But our communication here, meaning our actual script, it always has to be pretty Much similar to the... like, to the script of the highest-converting offer in the entire niche. Aligned, yes. It has to be well aligned because you're a white belt, you're in no position to innovate. Not even a black belt does it, imagine a coral belt. So you

don't have to invent anything, right? you just have to do the simplest thing possible, fully respecting your own ignorance while you work on it so you can finally earn the absolute right to innovate, man. But for now, it's pretty much that. Yes. well, we have then two more sections left, according to what you said, which are the offer section and then the lead part. And since you mentioned we always start with the lead last, I think now we move on to the actual offer part, right? Yes. so tell me what is important in this offer

part for the people at home, the White belts out there, so they can create an offer section that is not necessarily excellent, but, like, decent enough to bring in some results? Man, the offer section is actually one of the simplest parts because it's usually very templatized. When you look at the mechanism, it demands a level of creative potential there, like: man, which argument is the best for me to use? What's the correct order to use that argument, you know? The story is also quite templatized, it will usually follow the hero's journey. Now, the offer part,

because it is templatized, so it's simple because basically you present the product, yeah, it's pretty much that: product presentation, you see? Once you presented the product, you're going to talk about the benefits it will generate for the person. and uh... Once you mentioned the benefits, you'll talk About what's going to be inside the product, right? And then you explain that in the sexiest way possible. I think a major mistake is explaining it like: "oh, in module one you'll get this specific thing. In module two, you get, let's say, a copywriting course. So, in module one,

you'll learn research. In module two, you'll learn how to make ads. In module three, you'll learn how to make VSLs." No, it has to be sexy. So in module one, I'm going to show you the X-ray of how to understand the greatest human desires and how to make people buy from you like crazy. In module two, I'm going to show you the secret behind viral ads, ads that sell so many thousands a day. In module three, I'm going to show you how to write VSLs that generate over seven figures. It's the exact same framework I

used to generate over a billion. So, this sexy Way of showcasing the product is highly critical when you are writing, you know, your offer description, what the person is actually going to get. So the person starts by presenting the product, then they talk about the benefits that you will find inside that product. They can also throw in there who it is for, and who it isn't for. Like, "hey, this product right here isn't for you if you want to make fast money, blah blah blah. This product here is for those who truly want to build

a career, and so on and so forth." So you segment the audience a bit during this part too. Then comes the product description, as I mentioned. After that description part, comes the anchoring section, where you anchor the value of the product right there. "Man, this method could easily cost five thousand, but today you won't pay anything like That, you will pay only, let's say, 997." So you reveal the price, and then you come with the guarantee, you know? like, you revealed the price, CTA, you do the call to action for the person to buy. After

the CTA, the guarantee. After the guarantee, bonuses. After the bonuses, usually a recap of everything right there, like: "So, today you'll get this specific method, you'll get this bonus, a guarantee of this many days." And it ends at the very final part, usually offering two distinct paths, right? "You can apply everything you saw here and take months to see results, or you can simply grab my training here and learn all of this in just a few hours." So, that would be the foundation of a structure. and Of course, there are shifts that can happen along

the way, you can move the guarantee around, you can swap a few little things around, no problem at all, But the template follows pretty much this order: product presentation, what's inside, anchoring, price, guarantee, bonuses, and the final part right there with the two options. Uh-huh. and man, do you recommend that the person, looks at the references they have, combines them with this framework you just laid out, And then, you add the references... based on what you have in your framework... or do you believe they should just follow the reference exactly and that's it? like, use

the exact same template of the guy who is actively scaling in the niche at the moment. They can use, they absolutely should use the same template, but they can add their own elements. So if they have a highly compelling bonus, if they have a way to position their offer that is way more interesting, they can use it. I don't see Any problem at all, I think it's good. It's cool to have that edge. So when we talk about modeling, you don't need to copy 100% of what the person is doing, you know? You're going to

model the structure, but if you have something better to offer, offer it, you know? So, yeah, if you have a better bonus, a more compelling offer right there, the way you build your offer, if it's more interesting, you know? No doubt about it. If modeling meant, copying, the word modeling wouldn't even exist, right? Everyone would just say copying. Yes. But you see that nowadays most copywriters are copiers, they are not modelers. Back in our day, we modeled the correct way. Nowadays most of the crowd doesn't know how to do copy, they know how to copy,

you know? So, that's why When you think about the invisible structure, you are thinking structurally, man, I'm going to model structurally, I'm not going to model by taking and copying the exact same thing everything the person said, you know? Uh-huh. So, you're going to take elements right there that make sense, in the order that makes sense. So, that's interesting. Uh-huh. Man, the white belt watching, right? well, man, I loved that term, white belt. I found it really cool, you know? so, the white belt watching us, If he actually looks at that offer section, like, he'll

have a template right there, like an invisible structure for him to follow, right? and he'll be able to follow and execute pretty much the vast majority of what's In there, no problem at all. But what do I personally think he'll honestly have a really, pretty hard time following, you know? It's gonna be the whole part about talking about the product in a sexy way, because the guy he'll be looking at will be talking about his product in a very, very sexy way. So, like, in module one you'll get the X-ray of something, but maybe in

module one for the white belt there is just no such X-ray. Yes. So besides the logical points which are a bit harder, perhaps a skill that he needs to develop is the part of transforming the module, I mean, the actual product description, and things like... Fascinations. Yeah, those sexy things, and a tool for that is precisely the one you just Mentioned: fascinations. and man, how does the person— by the way, what is that exactly and how can a person get, not necessarily expert, but decent at it to at least be able to execute that section

of the VSL? Man, a fascination is a bullet point right there. So it's a curious phrase that generates, I mean, it generates intense curiosity and desire for the person to find out what is inside the product. So, for example, when I say: "Look, in module one, you'll discover the millionaire X-ray, where you will learn to identify human pain points and desires and with that make millions." So it's a sexy way of saying it's a research phase. Except you build that using solid references. There's a document we can send over to the guys, that Clayton Makepeace

document. Yeah, I know it. There is a document where he teaches you how to create fascinations and it has countless examples of fascinations. That one in English with an eagle? yeah dude. Damn, that one is awesome. Look, if you're watching this, man, there's a white belt who is already evolving, right? he's already on another level. man, you are, like, you are already getting smart there and all, you already became a blue belt, you know? You're already moving up. Yes, so we can release this document to the guys and this document is extremely useful because it

has several ready-made examples that the person can simply take and adapt right there to their own product. And how do we send this, man? what keyword are we going to use? Your Instagram is going to Blow up, man. ok, that's totally fine. The keyword can be... Can it be bullets? but they're going to mess up the letter L, right? oh yeah, the two L's So, Clayton? Clayton, alright. So guys, write Clayton that is like: C L A Y T O N it'll appear right there on the screen so just go over to at The dot

Filemon and type Clayton, right? Your chat is going to be hilarious, right man? The guy will send over, like, I even forgot, he'll send points, and then Clayton, like it's going to be just some wild things over there in the bot. Yeah. Totally. But go there, okay? Message him. and man, let me ask you a question: Do you really think that right here... man, like... a person can just simplify things and use, uh... those specific types of bullets, or fascinations, I mean, the simplest ones available out there? Like, how do you actually do such a

thing? Yes. and why you should do...like, why you should never do such a thing? What to do when such a thing happens? Uh... the secret that brings such a benefit. Like, the X-ray that's gonna make you a millionaire. There are these simple ones, and the simplest of them all, is just: how. How to do such a thing. so man..do you think he can do that?... Should he do that for the MVP version? For the... like, for his very first VSL? Or do you think he goes straight to Clayton Makepeace, like, to that bullets document over

there? Because I think there are twenty-one types of bullets inside that file, right? Yes. If I'm not mistaken, I think it's twenty-one, I don't remember guys if it's more than that, but over there the level is already high. Man, I think it's good, because like, the way to use fascinations, you can actually use them in multiple ways, in other parts of the copy, you know, in the lead and so on, but the way to use them specifically at the moment of the offer. It's usually about using, look, there's a technique X, a method X. It's

like every single module has a specific method, a technique associated with it, and you just create a sexy framework around it. So, let's say a regular research document becomes the Millionaire X-Ray that's going to actually show you the deepest Desires and pains of the human being so you can write a millionaire copy. Just as an example. Then, it’s like, how to create a VSL. So, look, in module two I'm going to show you how to create a VSL. and in this module two, I'm going to show you the nine-figure script that I personally used to

generate over one billion in sales during these past seven years. See, it becomes way more powerful. So it's always a technique, a specific method inside that module that drives the person to get the ultimate result. So it's as if, if they master that single technique, they will get the result, they'll get an absolute crazy result, you know? So that's exactly what fascinations are for. So it's much simpler to process if the person thinks like this, look: "I just Have to put a specific technique inside this module," well, you don't even have to put it there,

you just have to write it, okay? Because it's already inside. The research document, everything is already right in there. So, a technique X that generates a specific result, generates that exact benefit. In module two, I'm going to show you X thing. So, instead of how to make ads? The secret behind viral ads, to make you hit six figures a month. In module, uh, three, or four. So you just go, you keep using curious and very sexy hooks to really grab the person's attention. And inside that Clayton example, there are so many templates like that which

a person can just take— and basically transcribe right there, just adapt it using ChatGPT for their own niche. Nice. Yeah, man, and do you think there's any other section in that part of the offer, or rather, like any micro-section in there, that a person Will have a hard time modeling? Because this description part we already concluded that, it's a little bit harder, the guy needs to use a bit more logic, just like the unique mechanism. and dude, I don't think so, right? I think it's like... It's way smoother, right? At most, you just put the

data regarding your specific terms. Oh, the competitor is offering a seven-day guarantee, is your guarantee 30 days? More or less? How does it work? Is it pretty much just that right there, or do you think there's anything else? There isn't. I think that part is super smooth. Because you have so many references, right? And even if you, man, have already done a launch before, the foundation of the offer is pretty much the same, it won't change that much. So it's just a matter of trimming it down, putting it inside the invisible structure, especially in terms

of time right there. Like, the offer section is five minutes, or it's 10 minutes, so I'm going to keep it within that window, but I will explain my offer here in 10 minutes in the sexiest way possible. Uh-huh. Yeah, once again, right? The main mistake, I think, is not having your own VSL looking exactly like the reference VSL of that specific niche. So, man, if the close of that competitor, if the guy's offer has four thousand words, three thousand words, guess how many words yours is going to have, bro? It's definitely going to have four

thousand. total. When you look at both of them, like, you put them side by side, they have to be perfectly aligned, like, they must look very similar. Not the copy itself, but structurally. Well, he's talking about the guarantee here, look, right after the price, he mentioned the guarantee. So I'm going to talk about the Guarantee too. He's talking about the bonuses now, I'm going to talk about the bonuses as well. So, that's what needs to be perfectly aligned, you know? If a person can align that, man, it helps a lot. Man, why do you think

people screw this up so badly, dude? People just overcomplicate things. The biggest mistake a beginner makes is overcomplicating. So whoever is watching this right now and hooks up VSLs, man, the biggest mistake is always going to be complication. because many times the subject matter itself is complex. For example, fascinations, logical points, it is complex, but that doesn't mean you have to execute it in a complex way. They execute it complexly, you build an ultra-complex thing. Dude, are you crazy? It was supposed to be a simple thing, Understand? But because it's complex to think about, they

assume it has to be complex in the execution phase as well. No, you have to be as simple as possible. You see that the copies that sell the most, Man, our copy that used to pull two and a half million a month was so simple, dude, so simple. It was just bread and butter. Anyone looking at that copy would say: "Man, this copy is way too basic." Do you remember the story when I first saw a copy of yours that was scaling hard, you had a VSL that was doing like 600 sales a day. And

you told me: 'This VSL is doing 600... or was it like 300 sales a day? Yeah, 600 sales. This VSL is doing 600 sales a day." When I watched it, I was like: "Man, there is nothing special about this VSL," because I found it so simple, but that is exactly why it was crushing it. It had so much social proof, it didn't rely on Aggressive promises. So, all of that was completely counterintuitive to me as a student of copy, thinking: "it doesn't even have an aggressive promise." Why the hell is this copy selling so much?

Because it had an insane amount of proof, understand? You were hitting the exact right triggers, which is what drives the sales. Man, that is so cool, what you just said, like The guy who is a white belt, he has, like, several of these biases, you know? Like, these core beliefs that are just fundamentally wrong. Wrong, absolutely. One of them is that one about, like, 'ah, it has to have an aggressive promise otherwise it won't sell.' And the guy just doesn't understand the psychological process of persuasion. That proof is way more important than a promise. And

in the exact same way, man, that you are watching us right here and you don't believe in aggressive promises, your customer doesn't either, dude. The percentage of people who actually buy into that nonsense is tiny. So it still sells, but it doesn't sell nearly as much as the guy who is doing a serious, solid job. The guy who does a serious job sells way more. That's why the biggest players in the market operate this way, you just have to look around. So that's definitely one of them, that whole part about the belief system. Another thing

that people think about a lot, uh, we already talked about the VSL being a video for a specific offer or niche, and the myth that there are good niches and bad niches. Man, at the end of the day, it's all about the way you Execute it. And if you do it wrong, regardless of the market you are in, it's going to fail. Just like there are people selling erectile dysfunction products in a perfectly ethical way, there are several urologists out there selling info-products about this stuff. So do you think there are other limiting beliefs like

that, man, that severely limit a person, that you have identified throughout your journey over the course of time? There is the main one regarding VSLs in general, like, that people just don't watch VSLs. Oh, wow. Really. VSL length, that's the main objection. That's a classic one. How can someone watch a thirty, forty-minute video? Man, it happens way more than you imagine. People do watch them, because they care about the subject. So, when you talk about a topic that is not interesting to you, fair enough. Now, when it is interesting, you're going to spend an hour,

two hours watching. If they are watching this podcast until now, it's because it's interesting to them. uh-huh. So, there are people who have an extremely deep pain or a massive desire. These people will watch a 30-minute VSL easily— with absolute certainty. So VSLs sell, and they will keep selling. Man, only if a brand new video format emerges, uh, a new format that isn't video at all, which maybe, sure, in a few years that might happen. But as long as video exists and people consume video all day long on the internet, VSLs will keep converting, man.

Yeah, absolutely. And, like you said, man, video as a format is here to stay. There's no question about it. Because they reach Conclusions that make no sense. For example: let's talk about someone who is in the exact same niche as Mariana Rios, the law of attraction niche. She says: "Mariana Rios's VSL is forty-five minutes long, it's huge. Dude, people are not going to watch all of that. I'm going to make mine twenty minutes long." That is the absolute worst mistake you can make, understand? Because her VSL is working. You have to model yours based on

hers which is already working, not based on your own opinion that you haven't even tested yet. So, people have a lot of resistance towards long-form videos. like massive resistance. So I think that's the number one objection. Very good, dude. So, look, once again, right? if you look at the top-performing VSL in the niche and it's forty minutes long, And right then you have the brilliant idea, to say: fuck, I'm gonna make it better, I'll make it twenty." C'mon, dude, then you're just not following the exact proven breakdown of this podcast, you know? And then you're

screwing up. Then later you don't get results, get it? What do you expect me to say to you? So man, just do what we're telling you to do, follow the step-by-step. but Tiago, we already broke down the offer, the story, and the unique mechanism here, right? Yes. And we are doing all of this using the best practices of a coral belt master right here, which is you. And once again, the reference VSL of the niche, it is highly important that you find that specific video, right? Highly, highly important. And now we have the lead left

to build. So man, explain to the audience Right there what exactly a lead is and what you recommend for a guy to build this initial lead for a white belt VSL. Right. Man, the lead is essentially the trailer of your movie, which is a VSL. So the VSL is a movie, the lead is the trailer. The whole goal of the trailer is to build intense anticipation for what's about to come. So your lead is going to generate anticipation for the entire rest of the VSL. And how do you build anticipation? By talking about what is

coming next down the line. In short, by giving spoilers of what lies ahead. So the lead is a massive spoiler for the rest of the entire video. And inside this spoiler, there are a few elements that are critical. So your lead, like, it must have a powerful and clear promise so that the person sees immediate value in continuing to watch this video. Your lead must have clear audience segmentation so that the person knows that you are talking directly to them. So they cannot have any doubt whether it's for them or for someone else who has

nothing to do with it, no way. Look, it's you, a forty-year-old woman going through menopause who wants to lose this many pounds. So it's specific, your lead has to segment the audience that way. Your lead must contain elements of proof to show that what you are saying is not a lie. Man, look, more people are getting this exact same result here as well, take a look at these testimonials. So a promise, segmentation, and elements of proof are absolutely essential in a high-converting lead. And all of this comes packaged inside a single angle. What is an

angle? It's the core hook or topic of your lead. You're going to say all of this within your lead, but there Is one main angle governing it. This topic is what we call an angle. So, sometimes, if I'm going to use a problem/solution angle, right, I will start by addressing a deep problem, then I will present a solution, and from there can come the promise, can come a testimonial, can come these other crucial elements. So a lead— like, the sole objective of the lead is to generate anticipation, to build a deep desire to consume the

rest of the content. So a good lead will usually be high in curiosity, it will have these elements of curiosity, proof, benefits, and big promises. So if a person manages to combine segmentation, a promise, proof, and curiosity right at the beginning, that is more than enough for the lead to hook the person's attention. So usually a lead will take up 20% of the entire VSL length, or 15%. Like I told you, nowadays leads are getting a bit shorter, but, it is a lead where you are going to build anticipation. So, for example, let's say I'm

selling a copywriting course. I'm selling it to copywriters who want to master it. So I can say something like: "Today I'm here to show you how you can make 50 thousand dollars in commissions per month, using just this single document right here that you are seeing in my hand. This exact document is what made me a millionaire and allowed me to go from a broke ex-musician to a person in the digital marketing space, utilizing one single high-income skill: copy. That's exactly what I want to show you in this video. So in this video I will

show you a massive opportunity for you to change your life and earn up to 50 thousand dollars in commissions as a copywriter. It's a massive opportunity because you can do all of this straight from your couch, you don't need to work for anybody else, you can be a freelancer and set your own hours, have your own time freedom, you can run your own operation if you want to. So I'm going to show you exactly how you can do this in this video, and just like Johnny is doing right here, take a quick look at his

testimonial." Then you show Johnny's testimonial. Just like Johnny achieved this, you can do it too. You will be able to have more freedom, travel, and provide a much better life for your family. And if you watch this video until the end, I will show you the entire blueprint to make this happen. So keep watching because you are about to see this. So, for example, that could easily be a lead to sell a copywriting course. It's just a rough example, so— that's it. The lead has the sole purpose of creating Curiosity, creating massive anticipation for the

rest of the video. So, do you have anything different to add? No, dude. In terms of structure, I really don't think so. I do have a few, thoughts about how to actually execute— that I want to run by you to get your take on it. But before that, I wanted to, uh, ask you the following: once a person fully understands this— what exactly a lead is for, what needs to be included in there and all that. And they also have the reference lead from their niche— the specific structure of the niche they already mapped out

from that spy process they ran, right. so how do they actually translate that? Moving from having the niche reference lead to developing their own lead. Should they use the exact same framework as the close? or like, Do you recommend doing anything extra on the lead, considering it's— such a critical piece at the top of our funnel? Yes, the lead is actually simpler. Generally, I recommend that they test three entirely different leads right out of the gate. One lead is going to be built straight on the framework of the reference lead they are analyzing from that

top-performing VSL. Like I said, they see that the VSL they are modeling starts out with a solid testimonial, so they write down 'testimonial' in their notes. Next comes a promise, then the benefits, the pain point, and finally, like, some other core copy element. So, that's the structure, right? You're going to build yours the exact same way. It will start with a testimonial, then move into the big promise, hit the pain Point, and follow up with the other reference elements. So that's one lead, but I personally prefer to create three to test. Because since there are

three different angles you can play with, quite often, a single lead can completely crush the offer. So sometimes this specific type of lead completely bombs, while this other one performs incredibly well. So this second version would be more freestyle, just like I outlined here, what matters most is hitting the core elements inside it, understand? The framework— you already built one following this structure, so now grab a different approach. For instance, if you find three winning VSLs, you could model each one, giving you three distinct leads to test, you know? Ideally, they should attack from different

angles. Uh-huh. So if one is focusing heavily on testimonials, focusing on proof, okay, the other one, ideally, shouldn't focus on that at all; it should be centered, let's say, on the core pain, the main benefit, or your unique mechanism. So it's highly interesting to have this clear differentiation between the leads so you can find out which one truly performs best, which angle is converting better for that specific audience, you know? And quite often, this winning angle, you will only discover by testing, man. Because even if you take a validated lead blueprint, sometimes you build a

brand new lead of your own, mapping out an angle you thought was way more compelling: "Man, I'll start by addressing this, let's say, sharing my core story, then show a testimonial, back it up with proof, and so on. And on this other one, you followed the reference structure 100%. Frequently, Your freestyle one will vastly outperform it, see? But you'll only know by testing, which is why we test three leads. You model the original winner, but you also engineer other versions with different angles. The absolute key is to make them distinct— not identical. Dude, break down

a bit more of that concept right there, regarding just how critical the lead actually is to the point where you want to build three of them. Because we didn't build three core stories, we didn't build three unique mechanisms, or three closes. The single element here that you are urging the person to create multiple versions of is the lead. Yes. Which can completely make or break your entire funnel, Right? yeah. Explain to the audience why this is so important? Why do we need to take such good care of the lead? Man, just like an ad captures

the top of the funnel, the lead does the exact same thing. It's the second element your prospect will ever experience. First, they see the ad, and by clicking it, they land straight on your lead. So, when you are about to optimize a funnel, you always start the optimization process from the top of the funnel, from the front end. So you begin tweaking the elements that are furthest away from the actual offer, and only later are you going to touch the offer itself, so it's pretty much irrelevant for you to start making changes in the middle

or at the end of the VSL. Personally, I don't like that approach at all, okay? Making tweaks to the middle and the end right away. I love making optimizations right at the beginning. If the hook doesn't work There, man, the VSL is probably not going to work at all, understand? So the lead is essential to build three versions because you can test completely different hooks that will segment the exact right buyers to convert. There is a specific buying audience out there. If you manage to say exactly what that target audience wants to hear, that person

will stick through your VSL and they will buy. And that is why quite often you'll see, you test the exact same copy, the only thing changing is the lead. One will lose money, while the other will be extremely profitable. This one here can make a hundred thousand a day, this other one might just lose you money. Check it out. Just by switching the lead. So the lead, it is a highly sensitive variable in the funnel. The ideal path is for you to test a minimum of three, but once your offer is live and it's converting,

you should be testing Right there, man, on a weekly basis if possible, at least two or three leads per week, okay? So that is a proven best practice, because when you optimize the lead, you are optimizing the front end of the funnel, driving highly qualified traffic deeper inside. So if you manage to shift that initial conversion rate right off the bat, you get a massive spike of people buying, because of a new lead you tested, a new winning angle you uncovered. We see this happen all the time. Uh-huh. Dude, you mentioned that sometimes the lead

can kill the entire project, or it can bring a massive profit, or just fail, right? And man, you've seen a ton of them, you've built a ton of leads yourself. Yes. Not only have you built a ton of leads, but you've analyzed even more from other people—reviewing them, auditing them, and so on. And I know, Tiago, that it's tough For us to look at a project and know for a fact that it works. Most of the time, we don't have a clue what's going to happen—we just know if it's bad. and If it's bad, you

can tell right away. But if it's good, at least for me, you only know by testing, right? But man, if a person had to focus on just one single thing, what do you think it should be? Like, what should they focus on... to try and not screw up the lead? What do you think is the single most critical piece they need to pay the most attention to? If they have the niche reference lead, one lead will look very similar to that reference. For that one, man, again, don't reinvent the wheel. Do exactly that—that is your

safest, highest-probability shot. Yes. But when it comes to the other two variables, like the person will have a bit more breathing room to actually innovate. Yes. And within that space of innovation, what do you think they should focus on as the primary anchor of the entire lead? Man, if I had to bet all my money on one specific type of lead, it would be a lead where within the first 30 seconds I hit the unique mechanism, meaning, the core methodology, my thesis, like a quick summary of my thesis. The mechanism, the promise, and an element

of proof. Just those three things. So I start with the mechanism, which is that sexy, new thing you offer to the prospect. For instance, Bitcoin would be your mechanism. So, let's say, there is a massive new opportunity inside Bitcoin right now. and this exact opportunity is capable of generating up to this many thousands in pure profit for you, and just like it happened for this guy right here, boom. So within the first 30 seconds, if you manage to fuse those three elements together—your unique mechanism with proof that proves it is real, along with a big

promise—to me, that is the ideal scenario for the beginning of a lead, you know? So it would be those three exact elements. We're going to start right away with the most critical pieces, which will draw the person into the VSL in a much more qualified manner, because we are placing everything they truly want—right upfront. Exactly, you are already summarizing what they are going to see, because inside they will consume more mechanism and fully grasp how the opportunity works. But if you come out swinging right away, mentioning this opportunity, showing it's real, and making a bold

promise like, 'man, you can win too,' then you immediately segment and qualify that person for the buy later, you know? So, Tying those three elements together is the most important thing for a winning lead, if I had to bet on just one type. uh-huh... And dude, we mentioned.. actually, you. You mentioned that you want to roll out three leads right from the jump. yeah. And then, we'll have the niche reference VSL. And if you have a few more there, you can use them too. Yes. So, what's your take on using this exact same process to

build leads, but instead of using niche reference VSLs, using VSLs from similar or even completely different niches? For instance, if a guy is selling weight loss, he could grab a lead from, say, the rejuvenation niche, like I mentioned, or even pain relief, which is still under The broad health umbrella, you know?and that's quite close to weight loss. Or he could even use, let's say, a relationship lead or a make money online lead. What is your actual take on that then? It's possible, it can be done, but it's not the first thing I would do. The

very first move should be modeling from the niche, from your own specific niche. The second move would be looking for closely related niches where you can model the hooks, you know? So, I believe it's a less accurate choice overall. If you have three niche VSLs available to model, you're much better off modeling those three niche VSLs than, say, taking two from the niche and one from a completely unrelated market and trying to force an adaptation, you know? Is it possible to make it work? Yes, but here we are talking about being as accurate as possible,

and to be highly accurate, I would only do that after Testing the ones I already have in front of me, you know? Got it, man. Awesome. and dude, once we have all of that in place... I mean, we're basically done, right? Like, we have the.. We have all the elements, all the specific copy blocks. We have the offer, the story, the mechanism, and the lead... Man, with just that, they will fundamentally be able to build a VSL that is decent. Yes. So, look, you can actually test it, you know? You can test it. If you

don't do that, and you do like, what my personal trainer did— like, taking a seven-thousand-word reference and writing a two-thousand-word script—it's going to fail, you know? Then, you can't even test it. So, if it looks the same, it's pretty much good to go, right? Yes. Man, the last thing I wanted to touch upon here is the recording process. What specific tips do you have for someone to actually produce the VSL? Because they can record it at home, they can record it here in a studio like we're doing in this podcast format. There are several ways

to handle it. so what do you think is the best approach for them? That's something where I think it's more interesting to look at organic content and see what's performing well. Because when you..... like, it's very common, right, when you watch a VSL, it's just a standard VSL, the person is right in front of the camera talking like this. But if you manage to bring like, if you manage to bring a level of sophistication to the market, to the Actual format, you can hold the person's attention much better. That's why in Cariani's VSL, he is

inside the gym. So, um.... so that automatically grabs the person's attention, like, "Whoa, let me stop and pay attention to this," you know? Uh-huh. So, the format is extremely important today. I wouldn't go for formats that are too different or crazy. It's about simple things, but, man, where could you actually be that would catch people's eyes and make them retain more, visualize your video more, stay right there, and truly want to keep watching, you know? So, if the person doesn't have an interesting location, that's totally fine, record in your office, record however you can. But

if they can Sophisticated it, meaning recording in a nicer place, a more interesting place, a visually more attractive setting, it's better for capturing that attention. And visually attractive doesn't necessarily mean a studio, for example. I think about studios, and I don't think it's a good alternative for them to record in a studio. Why? They can even record in a studio, but I would try to look for something more natural. you mean, It's the factor of naturalness, right? Yeah naturalness. I would seek naturalness over absolute perfection, like a flawless studio. It could be their own house,

in their living room, you see? You look at Elida's VSL, and she's right there in her living room. So, it's simple, but it's natural. That adds a really cool touch. So, can it be in a studio? Yes, it can, but if they can get that natural touch, depending on the Niche, it will really help them, you know? Yeah, the most beautiful one isn't always the one that converts, right? We see all the time that the most beautiful one is not what sells. Yeah, the people who are in the game..And even have a meme that says

like, the ugly funnel is the one that sells. I don't know if it has to be ugly, I think that's not the right word, you know? It is not, but, like, we've run tests on VSLs multiple times where we set up a highly produced VSL, with much better editing, putting the expert in a better location, and sometimes it just doesn't sell at all. While the first version you made, a simple MVP, crushes it. Man, that one for Fran, we recorded it in a super simple coworking space, one guy with a camera and one light, and

it was a VSL that was clearing two and a half million a month. We tried to make other highly produced versions of it, and they just wouldn't sell, man. That's complete madness, man. So dude, fundamentally, that's it. Try to create your VSL by looking at what works organically. If there's content pulling attention, it's not complex, and it's worth testing. But at worst—not at worst, but another great format is just you right here, talking directly to the camera. Yeah, you don't need to reinvent the wheel. If the person has doubts, don't overcomplicate it, go with the

simplest option. Man, just talking to the camera. A lot of people record VSLs with a smartphone, boom. So, it doesn't need to be high production. It needs to have good editing, but nowadays, with technology, you can achieve a lot. Without a doubt. Man, this right here, I mean, fundamentally, is what a person needs to make an MVP VSL, right? Like a white-belt VSL. yeah, like the first version to test out there. To see what's actually happening. and is there anything you think I haven't asked you yet? Let me think... No man, I think the process

explained in the simplest way possible is pretty much exactly this. alright. Man, once a person deploys this, right? Like, the guy doing product launches, Hotmart, or digital products. Do you think that the absolute best use of this new tool they will have, like, do you believe that they need to use this to actually scale on the front end and generate cash? Or do you instead firmly believe they should use it somehow to boost their own launch results? This is the easiest way for them to use it, you see? Like, in my opinion, okay? I don't

know if you'll agree with me. But man, if I had to state the simplest thing someone could do, it is to take this video they recorded based on what we did here, and, man, put it right in your bio link, okay? Because the traffic is already going there, the person is already producing content, so naturally, just by doing that... Sales will start coming in. Yes, you will definitely get sales just by having this brand new tool in your funnel. I mean, in your business,. So, like the person doesn't necessarily have to use paid traffic right

away, but paid traffic is what will allow you to scale to completely cold audiences, you know? Which is what we want, right? What kind of approach do you think they should take? Do you think they should dive straight into cold traffic and learn ads right away? How does that work? Man, I think what you said is an excellent alternative—putting the link in the bio—and right there you'll start getting a small baseline response regarding the quality of that video, right? But either way, I think it's absolutely worth testing it with a cold audience. So, it's worth

setting up paid traffic because these tests are not expensive. Today, with, let's say, two thousand reais, three thousand reais, someone can test and validate it. We're talking about a video that has the potential to pull a hundred thousand a day. You're going to spend two thousand reais to test something that can make a hundred thousand a day. Is that not worth it, you know? Because sometimes they'll put those two thousand reais in, and they'll see it work—put it in, made four thousand, five thousand back. Man, what if I put five thousand? What if I put

ten thousand? So, this will push them to want to deploy more money into traffic. I truly believe the best way someone can use a VSL funnel is as a purely lucrative asset. I don't agree with running a VSL funnel at a loss or at break-even just to generate leads. No, you have to use it to generate revenue, and along with that, you will Generate a massive wave of leads for your next launch. So, the leads are the consequence, but the cash in pocket has to be there. And it will be there, if you script a

good VSL, you will manage to turn it into something highly profitable, a profitable sales machine inside your business. Without a doubt, man. In addition to buyers, you'll also gain Instagram followers. yeah man. Who will eventually turn into leads later on. So, you have these two fronts of benefits. I remember when I was running my cold traffic funnel for VTurb, and it had this massive side effect of pulling in a ton of followers, and we scaled a lot with VTurb's Instagram accounts, you know? Man, a friend of mine had an expert in the back pain niche,

a guy who helped With spine issues, I don't know the exact name... an orthopedist? I think it's a chiropractor, right? I don't remember exactly. But they scaled a VSL for him that was generating massive revenue, like five hundred thousand a month, and like.. he told me, man, that the guy literally tripled his consultation fees because so many people started flooding his Instagram that he couldn't physically handle the demand. So, look at that side effect of having a working VSL that was already generating five hundred thousand a month: it forced the guy to triple his in-person

consultation rates. That is crazy, man. So, a health professional, a doctor, or a nutritionist running a VSL will sometimes Manage to triple their appointment fees, sell much more expensive procedures because it spikes the demand on their profile, and if you increase demand, you can raise your price point as well, get it? Uh-huh, awesome, man. And Tiagão, I'm not going to talk about creatives here, okay? In fact, you already have a podcast episode about that on VTurb, and it will pop up on the screen for the audience. That would be the other piece missing for us

to have our VSL funnel ready to roll, right? like, for you who are a white belt out there, like, to start making your first cold traffic sales through a VSL, you know? To have this sales machine running in your business. So, man, watch that podcast episode, it can be highly valuable for you. And regarding upsells, I have a free course inside the VTurb Academy. So you can check it out, it's called The Secret of the Upsell, which is very interesting. well man, thanks for your time, Tiagão. What did you think of the podcast? Man, I

thought it was great. It's a pleasure to share, like, to share this new journey with you, and I'm certain this will be very useful for VTurb as well, putting more people in the market running VSLs. God willing. And I believe this is the absolute best way for you to scale in the digital market with predictability. I don't know any funnel better than a VSL to achieve that. And if someone combines that with a launch strategy, it's the perfect combo. Because they will get those massive revenue spikes from the launch, alongside the day-to-day predictability of evergreen

traffic. And the more people Start doing VSLs, the more clients you get at VTurb and the more people we can help as well. So, it was a pleasure talking about this with you. Awesome, man. And now comes the bad part, right? at least for you, man. Because now, guys, we're going to play some FIFA, right? what bad part? I'm going to crush you, man. Completely. Watch out, man.. you're going to lose, dude. Guys, the winner is going to pop up on the screen, okay? I won't show the score, it might look bad. You are my

mentor, I respect you, but in FIFA, I will not respect you. I will completely disrespect you. It's going to be right There. How many matches Tiagão won, how many I won, if he won at all. If it even happened that he won, because I don't think it's going to happen. But man, your Instagram is The Filemon, right? The Filemon, yes. So guys, Tiagão's Instagram will appear on screen, The Filemon, And the exact keywords you need to send over to Tiagão's Instagram will also pop up on the screen right now, so you can easily get all

of the special bonuses we mentioned right here on the podcast., okay? and if I'm not mistaken, there's one for the mechanism, one for the fascinations, a bunch of stuff, right? I forgot. It'll all show up right there, looking sharp. So, you go to Tiagão's profile, type the password in, these keywords, and you'll receive an automated message that will grant you all this content so you can continue your journey to, like, to graduate from a white belt To a blue belt, eventually reaching black belt status, right? and who knows, maybe after a few years and multiple

eight or nine figures generated, becoming a coral belt just like Tiagão. But I always wrap up the podcast, Tiagão, by letting the guest leave a final message for the VTurb audience. So dude, you can say whatever you want. About God, family, motivation, or telling people to take action. Anyway, look right at the camera right here and use this opportunity to speak to the VTurb audience. Go ahead, man. So, I'm going to talk about knowledge. Knowledge is the number one value on my list today. I have a list of core values, and knowledge is at the

absolute top. And I realized that everything I earned in life, everything I truly conquered, was through knowledge. Without knowledge, without any access to information, I Wouldn't have conquered anything, and I wouldn't have become who I am today. So, the key to achieving everything you want in life lies right behind the knowledge you do not yet possess. So, if someone has a specific result you want, that person knows something you don't know. And if you learn it, most likely, you have a strong chance of getting that result too. So, seek knowledge—just like ET Bilu says, right?

Seek knowledge. And, man, VTurb is an incredible tool for spreading that knowledge, so I'm very happy to be here sharing and helping you guys out as well. So, thanks for the invite, João. I'm the one who thanks you. And guys, this was another episode of the Scaling Secrets podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, what is the step-by-step process you need to follow? You're going To click the share arrow right down below and send this to someone. Send it to a friend, send it to a WhatsApp masterclass or networking group if you have one. Do it,

it's completely free, right? You might help someone out, that person will be happy to receive high-value content from you, and you'll also help yourself because you'll make the VTurb podcast grow. I'll be able to bring in higher-level guests to interview and generate this free content for you. So, share it, okay? This is great for everyone. And that's a wrap. Thank you, Tiagão. And see you guys at home next Tuesday at 5:00 PM, all right? Big hug, and take care. Man, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Scaling Secrets. If You liked

the episode, don't forget, okay? Like this video, subscribe to the VTurb channel so you can receive more episodes directly in your inbox. This is extremely important to us. And if you do that, I guarantee you that I will bring the best guests here to deliver content to you, got it? And if you're looking for more episodes to watch right now, man, I'm going to leave two episodes right here somewhere on the screen from Scaling Secrets for you to check out. So click right there, watch them, it's absolutely worth it. Take care, and see you soon.