The UFO Agenda, Disclosure & Consciousness | Richard Dolan

We were talking why now for disclosure, but I'm more interested in why now for them. Why are they making themselves known? Yeah. In greater numbers now. And I I have a definite thought about this. There's been a long-standing observation predominantly for most of our time was somewhat low level. We got to a certain critical mass with science. We were able to take our domination of the planet into high gear. radio and missiles and Atomic bombs and you know everything else that we do and computers like all of that happened really fast and you know we're

we're this close now from AGI and uh all kinds of very advanced quantum computing and that's gotten their attention and they know we need to keep an eye on these people because these humans they're they they've discovered the keys to the kingdom. Welcome back to the transmission my friends. The UFO UAP phenomena is one of The most multifaceted uh mercurial mysteries of our time. It bridges philosophy, psychology, uh physics, consciousness, geopolitics, history, uh my most skitso tendencies. So, it is one hell of an esoteric encrypted onion. Truth be told, though, as obsessed as I am

with the topic, sometimes I'd rather not go there. You know, if the conversation is going to be too one-dimensional, too shallow, too opinionated, you're going to hit dead Ends and you're going to hit them quickly. But that is not the case when you are riffing with the great Richard Dolan. Just the opposite. In fact, he's been researching this phenomenon for decades. He's a prolific author. He's written at least eight books by my count, including Alien Agendas After Disclosure and his latest, A History of Usos, but also, and most importantly, I think he is a multi-dimensional

uh deep open-minded thinker. Case in Point, this conversation is just a docahedron of topics as they relate to the phenomenon. We touch on consciousness, the possibility of genetic manipulation, how tied in with the phenomena we already are in ways we may not even realize. You know, psychical influence guiding hands. We muse about the mysterious so-called legacy UFO program and largely whether or not these entities should be seen as allies, adversaries, or just something Far stranger. And with that, all the links that you will need for Third Eye Drops and Richard Dolan are in the description.

If you'd be so kind, like, subscribe, comment, share. You know the deal. Tickle the algorithm from all angles. Do subscribe to Third Eye Drops wherever you listen to audio podcasts. We've got hundreds of multiddisciplinary mind melds with some really brilliant beings. And if you want more content, if you want to support these transmissions, Initiate yourself on our new YouTube members page or at patreon.com/therrops. We've already got membersonly full mindmelts. We'll be doing Q&As where I riff on your topics directly and more. I'll also be releasing my uh little trove of Monroe Institute gateway process musings

soon. And I almost forgot. Uh Richard and myself will be attending what must be the premier UFO conference in the world. Contact in the desert. I'm truly stoked For it. Not a sponsor, but if you want to attend, I did drop a link in the description. That will secure you a discount. And with that, my friends, let's meld minds with Richard Dolan. The way this phenomenon is the most interesting by far is when you can discuss it in this multidisciplinary way that takes account for you know so many different areas of the high weirdness because

without that it just it just feel it always feels either Intellectually dissatisfying or dishonest or or like you you have some preconceived notions you can't get beyond and you're one of the few people in this space who can who can do that so skillfully. So, you're like one of my favorite type of people to talk to. Some of some of the rarest. It's really I'm I'm really excited to be on on your program today. And um relating to your point, the thing about what we used to call UFOs or now UAP is it is incredibly

Multidisciplinary as you're pointing out. You know, 30 plus years ago I started looking at this. I was uh still at that time thinking I was going to finish my work my career in the world of academia and teach at some university and I remembered asking myself like what what would be the most proper uh department in a university for the subject of UFOs like where would it belong? I I came at it through the discipline of history. But there's other Ways. You could look at it through psychology. You look at it through sociology. You could

look at it through anthropology. You could look at it through all sorts of sciences, physics or chemistry or you know, if you want to study ground traces in the soil or u study of consciousness. Sorry, you were saying I just said classics for, you know, like under a certain educated eye, you start reading like neoplatonists and, you know, other Esoteric texts and it's just like, yes. Yes. Okay. Replace one word with another. Yeah. It it goes all over the place. I mean, it's it's such a comprehensive uh realm of study. And that doesn't even cover

all of it. There's people who you could spend an entire lifetime studying just like being an investigator like a detective and studying the specific cases and trying to figure those out what happened or you can study Abductions or you could and and those are rabbit holes that could be all-encompassing. Absolutely. Yeah. So um yeah it really requires this is one of these subjects that you can see just how transformative it is simply by the number of disciplines that it uh impinges on totally in our our world. Yeah. And on that note, it's it's always transforming

or at least where the spotlight is shining most recently, it it's always in flux, right? Like with The emergence of people like Jake Barber, the conversation shifts to the consciousness um angle pretty significantly. And I wanted to ask you about that directly. Um, but one, so I mentioned that I had somewhat of a structure emerging and and I think it's just because I read Alien Agendas and every major section of that book, I'm just like, "This is juicy. This is juicy. This is juicy." And then I thought to myself, well, we could pretty Much just

follow this structure and spiral off from there and it's going to be like exactly what we're talking about. one of, I think, the most in-depth multi-disiplinary approaches to this conversation that you can have while still also speculating and and trying to um have somewhat of a notion of of what could really be going on here at large. But before we get into that, let's talk about some of these more recent emergences because they're Just so novel and they've captured my imagination and so many other people's imagination. Um, I think a good way to start on

that note would be a question that I feel like I always bring up when I'm when I'm talking about this topic, especially to someone as educated as you, is the why now of it all. You know, the the what is it about now that makes disclosure suddenly apparently this more palatable thing for people who are on the other side of that opaque wall of uh Government, intelligence, military, uh contractors, aerospace, uh technologies. Why do you think it is that there's this sudden not not just uptick in these people coming forward but why are they allowed

to be coming forward and and like what do you think the factors are that are motivating this? Yeah. As uh as the years go by I actually think that we control our actions less and less than we think we do and that we are probably More and more guided by large trends that we really have no control over. And I and I believe that this is actually one of them. So that's the macro level. And then we can get into the micro level, which is maybe kind of what you're you're driving at. But the macro

level to me is we are at a uh we're on a particular track in our development as a civilization and as a species. That is probably inevitable in my view. uh we've you know u mastered certain basic Technologies that leads us to other things that leads us to yet more to get more and we now have a a digitally interconnected world where we're able to communicate and and so like none of that can be changed and one of the things that we have done in the last century is we've collectively started to realize there seems

to be another intelligence here along with us and you know you could if you think of it just theoretically you could probably only go So long uh with that whole thing being kept secret from the rest of the world like probably in in a in a long uh sense the long view would have to be at some point it's inevitable that the rest of us learn. So with that and then you know you look at the the various uh pressures that are are promoting this. So from the viewpoint of the the insiders, you know, people

like um to the extent that they're insiders, Carl Nell or Christopher Melon or um maybe Gary Nolan And and you know, people who have connections to uh whether it's the military or the intelligence community or government contracts like it's obvious that they have known for a number of years now. They've known, they haven't hinted, they've not guessing. Halutoff is another one. they they know fully well that there's another intelligence here. This is not a matter of kind of maybe sort of for them. And so but yet you know there are people who Have their own

interests in getting this information out. A lot of them are I I really genuinely believe that they believe it's in the best public interest to do so. But it's also very clear that there's a lot of support from within those circles that it's time to get this subject out in the open at least in so far as the technologies that do that u derive from it from that phenomenon can be more Openly studied. Yeah. And maybe and maybe um you know and this is I'm not saying this is the case with any one of these

people but someone's going to want to make money off of this. It's it's too much advanced technology for someone to ignore and and enough insiders have realized those guys are in on it. We're not in on it. We need to change this up and shake it up so that we can be in on this as well. So I do believe that there is a big part of that that's happening As well. Um but it's also just you know I think there's a certain inevitability to this whole movement where you know we've we've had uh global

internet for you know 20 30 years depending on how you look at it and it's built it's created a critical mass in my opinion that enough information has now been shared that it's just becoming more and more difficult and we're we're we're not at the tipping point but we're I think we are getting close to a tipping Point. Yeah, it it certainly feels like it if if it is what it seems to be from an interested member of the public and it really is that there are organic reasons for this happening and it's or maybe

maybe more egalitarian reasons for this happening. I mean, it fits with the times. It's very Aquarian, right? Supposedly, we're shifting into this archetypal age shift. Um where I was talking about this with my wife yesterday. We listened to the song The Age of Aquarius. Great song by the way. Yeah. And I thought, remember when people believe that? But there are people who still believe it. So I I'm with you, man. Well, I'll tell you like I'm one of my biggest philosophical influences is Jung and and he really got me to take a second look at

astrology from like a more archetypal standpoint. And then people like uh Dr. for Richard Tarnis. And uh I'm not sure if you know um James Hillman, the late um post Yungian. No, I'm a big fan of Jung. I'm a very very great admire of Carlo Devong. You would love then um uh Hillman's most well-known book is called Souls Code. Um I think you I think you'd really like it. I I'll resist the urge to to go down that rabbit hole, but anyway, we can do some young later. I I think Young was u almost he

was almost alone among many 20th century thinkers in um in the depth and the things that he saw that other people were not seeing He saw and I'm a big big fan of him. Yeah. I mean yeah like half the content on my channel is Yung content. So believe me I I could get swept I could get swept into Yung so easily. Um, but resisting the urge to do that, you know, on on this topic of of why now, I mean, one of the the obvious potentials in my mind is that there is something coming

that can't be stopped, right? And there's been, you know, there's this has been alluded to by people. You know, There's there's sort of this almost like prophetic streak that something is coming from from people like the Bledso. Alzando has alluded to this in interviews that he knows of something that could be coming in like 2026, 2027. I think I think maybe maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like maybe Barbara has said something to that effect as well. So, so there's that whole angle, you know, there's the there's the the ever skeptical part of me that

that thinks This is all like part of some massive SC up that could be related to some kind of next generation technology or attempt to exert some kind of control that only some kind of like false flag event, you know, the the whole blue beam, some version of the whole blue beam thing. But assuming that it is at least close to what it appears to be and that there are real organic reasons for this occurring and and maybe benevolent reasons Ultimately. Yeah, I I just I couldn't be more fascinated by that question and I do

hope that it is what it appears to be. Well, I think I think we've got a variety of uh forces behind the scenes uh positioning themselves for this. So, uh the wolves never go away. They're they are absolutely in there as well. And by that I simply mean I think there are people who are positioning themselves like for example um working through the members of Congress now Members of Congress are talking about transparency to whatever degree they can whether it's Birchhead or Luna or or Berles or any of the others and uh it's it's easy

for me to think because I've talked to some of those members of Congress that they actually are sincere as far far as they can go with it. Yeah. I don't I don't really think that they have illusions about thinking They're going to change the world here. Uh I think the ones that I have I've either spoken to or listened to, they all seem to realize that uh there are powerful powerful players on the other side that will do anything possible to prevent this subject from moving forward. And there's still a very very strong intrigent uh

faction. They may be the strongest faction probably that that not only is doing whatever they can behind The scenes to, you know, squash legislation and things like this, but they still have access to the legacy media, the establishment media. And there are hit pieces in the media that still go out all the time every week on this subject. I I see them because I track them. And um so when when people think oh we're in a new era where we're talking openly about disclosure yeah to some extent but there is still a very very strong

uh backlash against that That is very very strident. So I think that there's a variety of of um groups that are that we can call them factions that are positioning themselves for u for their own best advantage. And I don't know how that's going to turn out, you know. I mean, think of it this way. The amount of information that has come out in our public realm over the last since 2017, last 8 years, it's extraordinary. I mean, really, we we have had so many admissions coming from The government that if it were 10 or

20 years ago, we would have thought this would cause disclosure. Absolutely. And it hasn't. I mean, we've had the Navy admit that, yeah, those UFO videos, those are real. We've had the Navy and the Department of Defense admit, "Yeah, we have tracked UFOs." We, in fact, we had ATIP and we had OAP when we told the public we had nothing of the sort. And all of these other encounters, Ryan Graves and the Tic Tac and so these are The USS Omaha, you know, the leaks that have gone to Jeremy Corbel. It just keeps happening. Uh

David Grush, you you would think I would have thought anyway like 15 years ago if I had learned that these were going to come out, I thought, okay, this this will this will cause a whole house of cards to come down. And and that's what has not happened. So So what I'm saying here is the establishment, the the power behind the establishment, they have not given up. They have not walking away from the table here. And uh they're doing a very good job at playing defense on this and managing the narrative to a remarkable degree.

They they continue to do this. Yeah. Yeah. One of my sort of you know dark takes is that it seems like because of this paniply of forces who who by the way I'm curious who who you think these people who are still pushing back are in an organized way you know who they are and what their motivations are. I'm Curious if you have a a strong opinion on that, but but also um you know there's the there's the old line about like the fear of disclosure causing ontological shock, right? But in a lot of ways,

what I think it has done is cause like a kind of epistemic crippling, you know, where it's just like there's so much that you can't fully make sense of it all. And even how much weight you give to each individual anecdote or theory is just I mean you Must deal with this like 100x compared to what I've dealt with it even as someone who's interested in the topic just by virtue of the number of stories and people and books and I ideas that you've interacted with and you're one of the very few who has I

think emerged still level-headed and still able to like you know not be a complete skitso wreck but I think there's a lot of people who who either, you know, get so sucked into it that their their Sensemaking apparatus is completely offkilter or they're just put off completely where they're just like, I can't I I just can't interact with this. There's just too That's really true. Yeah, that's that is so absolutely true. This subject, I've seen it happen. I've had it happen to friends and people close to me as well as people that I just know

sort of marginally. And you can see this subject has a way it can destabilize someone in different ways. It has definitely happened and um it has not happened to me. I it's a weird thing and uh I I do think that I can handle a lot of personal stress in that way and I guess that's a good thing because I've been studying this now for 30 years and more more than 30 years and it has completely upended my worldview multiple times. multiple times. So, um you know, uh you're very philosophical and and one thing that

I that has really helped me honestly throughout the years is Developing a different uh various spiritual approaches. One would is a Zen Buddhist approach which I've always been very very close to. Not that I'm some master at Zen, I'm certainly not. But the attitude of being open and not being committed. Yes. uh to a particular position and as one of my favorite Zen books is titled comfortable with uncertainty. uh it's paychron and and it's a really great book and she uh kind of taught me this is 20 years Ago whenever I read it like you

can you can live with uncertainty it's okay I don't have to have the answers to everything so uh there's still a lot of uncertainty that I have when it comes to this amazing subject of UFOs or UAP like who's behind them what's their motivation I like to think about that I like to speculate about who they are and I don't I don't mind being wrong I don't mind changing my opinion ions. Uh it's inevitable with a subject as difficult As this. Totally. Yeah, that's so important. Remaining epistemically humble and not overly We're all going to

have our biases and attachments to certain ideas, but not remaining so overly attached to things that you become completely blinded and and unable to discern what's real or or what's most like like what AAM's razor even is, right? Um, ironically, I was just editing an episode with a friend of mine named Alli Biner, Alexander Biner, who Um, he used to run a channel called Rebel Wisdom. You may have stumbled across at some point. Um, but um, you know, very, very brilliant guy who is through and through a seeker, but he said almost the exact same

thing as you, but coming more from the the purview of someone who's done uh, you know, a lot of deep work with psychedelics. like he was in those um extended state DMT trials you may have heard of at Imperial College and um yeah he says exactly the Same thing that like when you're going into these realms and you're interacting with these phenomena and beings and intelligences and whole you just things that couldn't seem more real and more compelling and more onlogically shocking at the end of the day you still have to come out of those

experiences being like yeah that was a phenomena that I experienced And now what? You know, and and now and and and he you still have to live inside Your own mind. You still have to live with live your own life. And um yeah. Anyway, I I didn't interrupt. No, no, not at all. And he maintains a Zen uh a Zazen meditation practice for that exact reason, to not be attached um and to be able to ground. Um, but now now that I've sort of maybe given a little pivot point into consciousness, um, one of the

other things that's just so compelling and novel to me personally is the whole Jake Barber story. Um, and I've Summarized it many times in the channel, but ju just to do a quick 10-second version, uh, Jake Barber is this former special forces, um, military, I guess he worked for a number of, um, of agencies and, uh, contractor, his uh, career, but, you know, this guy seems to have very bulletproof credentials. He and a group of other um, you know, former special forces operators come forward. They say that they worked in crash retrieval, which in And

of itself is incredibly fascinating and compelling. But then there's this psionics angle, this this angle where there are these what they call psionic assets who somehow psychically connect to these intelligences and uh invite them down, draw them down, summon them down, whatever verb you want to use. Yep. and that they're like integral to being able to do this work and apparently have been doing this work for um defense contractors, maybe the Government for a long time now in this air quotes legacy program, which I still don't know what that is or or how cohesive of

a thing that is. Would love to hear your thoughts on that, too. But yeah, this addition of this psychical angle, I think is yet another thing that can suck people in with a very strong tractor beam, which it has done to me or it can put people off really really strongly. But um just just for the added context for you, I also right around the Time his story broke uh went to Monroe Institute and did their whole gateway retreat and I did end up having a mind-blowingly ontologically impactful experience there. Um so I was already,

you know, super interested in the history of it, reading Bob's books, reading all the Project Stargate stuff, and then out comes this. You know, it's just like the timing was almost disturbingly synchronistic. Wow. Very, very interesting. Well, you Know, it's funny. Uh, I've not done the Monroe Institute, but my wife Tracy has. And, uh, like you, she's got a very deep interest in this type of phenomena, anything relating to consciousness essentially. She goes into some very interesting places with it. And I'm lucky because I get to talk with her about it literally every day, and

it's fascinating. So what I would say about this a the psionics connection in this realm is very very interesting to me. Uh I have it's funny I I have no problem believing pretty much all of it. Uh someone can criticize me for that. It's it's a really weird thing. You know 30 plus years ago when I I tried breaking into this field I was ultraconservative in my approach that is very fact-based. I didn't even care what I thought about the phenomenon to be honest about it. I only was interested in um documenting what I could

document and that's I think It's a great approach. I'm very glad and I continue to do that despite the beliefs that I have developed. Um I'm I always try to maintain my objectivity but in terms of what I believe I have there is no doubt in my mind that there is a um a realm let's call it that beyond these physical bodies of ours and that uh that every human being is probably able to open up a space uh in their consciousness and tap into let's call it a higher consciousness, God Consciousness, whatever whatever your

word for it is. I believe that that's real and I think that what the psionics discipline is just one more variation of it. Remote viewing is a variation of it. Um other forms of of sigh phenomenon are all different variations of that in my opinion. So I think it's real and we don't have a proper science to explain it fully but we're kind of we're sort of getting there a little bit and I think that's exciting. I I mean it's it's an Absolutely to me it's an amazing thing to contemplate because who who wants to

live in a universe where there's no mysteries where there's nothing that's unexplored and there is this huge uh element of reality that and and by the way I'm convinced that the other intelligences that are here interacting they they probably understand this very very well. Yeah. And how to navigate their way through it. Yeah. There's an almost eerie chapter of Bob Monroe's First book, Journeys Out of the Body, and I I just reread it recently because I'm considering making a piece of content about it specifically, but it's chapter 20, and it's not it's it's not like

really as much in the sort of um narrative structure of the rest of the book. It's it's this speculative story that hinges on this idea that that you're talking about. This idea that more advanced beings in large part, if not completely, Exist in this other realm and that we are like sort of these life forms that have have this like vestigial connection to that realm, but it's completely latent in most of us. And most of us don't, you know, if if we had, you know, and we very well might, again, to just fuel the the

the skitso part of this conversation, we very well might very well might be surrounded by other beings and intelligences all the time, but we're so Overwhelmed by physical consensus, flashy technological reality that we're just totally blind to the subtleties of it. It's probably inevitable that we would be sucked into this world. I mean, this is this is the dimension that we're in. You know, we're physical reality. We have to live and survive in this realm. So, of course, we're going to be focused on that. But, yeah, I agree. There's I think there's something else. And

we may be surrounded by other intelligences. However, I would dis distinguish that between uh I would distinguish that from potentially some of the things that we call UFOs. I don't know that it's all the same. I I do believe that there are literal extraterrestrial beings that that literally come from another planet far away. Uh but that they too have figured out a way to navigate through spaceime in in some way that we haven't yet done. And that some scientists think is impossible, but I I don't think it's Impossible. But there's also this other uh non

or interdimensional aspect that might be a might be a totally different thing for all we know. Yeah, for sure. Impossible seems to be a word that is completely dependent on whatever map of reality you've chosen to commit yourself to. like if you're fully committed to like uh Einsteinian relativity, sure it sounds pretty impossible. But I I want to get into this in depth. But before we leave the The psionics part of the conversation, um I know you have done as a historian and I'm sure from your own personal interest have done quite a bit of

research on this whole time during the cold war where SRRI and um other groups were doing government sponsored intelligence um agency sponsored studies of psychic phenomena, psychic spying, remote viewing, PK, all of these other things. Um, and you know, the the most famous um project with all of this is Project Stargate, and then there's all these other sub projects off of that like Grill Grill Flame, um, Center Lane, there there's a whole bunch of them. Yep. But so when you even just take a shallow dip in that history and then see that there was this

20 plus year at least interest in this phenomena how we can use it for spying you know how it's never gone it's never stopped exactly this is my question this is my question but yeah 95 I know this story actually Quite well I yes please talked about it at length with the late Jim Mars who was a wonderful friend of mine so Jim Mars in the early 90s was onto the remote viewing program and he actually was writing the first expose of it ever and um that got blocked by his publisher that was complete national

security state intervention in Jim's book which eventually later was published as SAI spies and I think it's still available uh probably but anyway that whole thing Got stopped but I don't know all of the details but I will I would bet I'd bet a lot of money that it was that impetus by Jim Marzette led to the whole thing spilling out in 1995 and Ted Cppel dead is saying on ABC talked about it and it comes out and then if you if you check out those news stories at the time they were all emphasizing how

well yeah we didn't really get any good intelligence out of it wasn't all that useful that's all BS it was extremely useful it was Extremely valuable and they never ever for an instant stopped doing it they just used uh all kinds of quiet contractors uh all on the DL but they would definitely send out their targets to these various groups. Absolutely. That has never stopped because it's it's too it's too good. It's too on target. It's it's too uncanny. they they can't and and you know back in this early 70s when it started the whole

remote viewing thing Actually in my my take on it I don't know if Russell Tar and Halputo would completely agree but I believe that it came right almost out of the MK Ultra mind control program of the 50s and 60s and in fact I know for a fact Sid Gotautle who ran MK Ultra was extremely interested in the remote viewing um program and wanted he wanted Hell Pov and Russell Targ to start giving the subjects uh hallucinogenics for remote viewing and they were like Absolutely no way we're not going to do that get the hell

out of here and they did not work with Gotautly as far as I understand but there is this definite crossover the whole the whole point of all of this was for the US national security apparatus to utilize the powers of the human mind in the 50s it was all like can we create a mennturion candidate. Can we harm? Can we capture someone's soul or their mind? To what extent can we do that? And they Had no compunctions about that and we know a lot about that. Uh and you know the Russians were doing it, the

Chinese were doing it. It's not like we were the only ones. Uh but it was a kind of below the surface arms race in a sense and that I think how that morphed into remote viewing and psychism. You know, we we kind of know that uh the CIA approached SRRI in the early 70s. Yeah. With the interest of doing this and and uh Haluto off Founding Swan. Yeah. Uh in early on and the rest was history and it was really an amazing it's an incredible incredible story. I don't really know if it's really been told

as properly as it needs to be. I I was just going to ask if you've read um Phenomena by Annie Jacobson because I thought that was a really really wellressearched really well put together. Not yet. Not yet. I have not read that treatment yet. And I Yeah, she she starts with the Nazis Interest in the esoteric and then how a lot of that research ends up in the hands of the allies and the Russians. Yep. And that there to exactly to your point there there's a pretty clean line from World War II to MK Ultra

to all of the experimentation that went on at SRRI and what becomes Project Stargate. Yeah. Um and like you know Andrea Puharic and like all of these characters come together in a in a way that she fleshes out really really well. I'll have to I'll have to read that because I'm sure it's a great book. I think you'd like it a lot. Um it it made me even more interested in this topic and even more curious about what's going on she like currently and and what happened post 1995. And she does point to some things

that um continued that that she you know draws as um tied at least loosely to these programs. But it's not nearly as sexy as the you know the um full-blown remote viewing psychic spy stuff. Well, Look, I'm not I'm not really an insider expert on this, but I'm going to tell you and the listeners, whatever they're doing, they are so far beyond ordinary remote viewing. I think they're going to make the anything that we learned with the remote viewing look like kindergarten level stuff. I I firmly believe there are programs going on right now that

are leagues leagues beyond leagues beyond what what they what we call remote viewing. Yeah. Personal opinion, my wife agrees fully. uh you know it's not that we're I'm some expert but we we talk to people and you know what information comes my way makes me think oh no man they are like we we we really learn just uh we're learning the unclassified version of that stuff and I think it goes way way more potent thinking in terms of we're talking like remote influencing and beyond I think is what they Yeah it's so Yeah let letting

giving yourself room for these things to truly exist is is terrifying in some ways, but so I I just can't resist. Um, have you by chance there's a guy who it's now come out. Um, so it's every time I every time I feel like I could be betraying someone's privacy, I feel a little about it, but it's been said publicly in multiple places, so I think it's okay to talk about. But there was a guy who was getting a lot of um eyes on Reddit Claiming that he as a kid was kind of groomed through

the guil gift gifted and talented program and then was eventually brought into this um classified program where they where he did all kinds of psionic um things at the behest of a um or or involved in a classified some kind of SAP. And he even names the um the defense contractor who is in charge of it. But here's the interesting thing is his pseudonym I think it was uh Martin. It's Martin. So Martin later turns out To be Jordan who's on Barber's team and is one of the psionic assets on Barber's team. So for a

lot of people, this brought a lot of legitimate legitimacy to this piece of lore. And man, by no means the first person make this type of a statement by no means. Yeah. So with the people you talk to, of course, not asking you to betray anyone's trust, but are there even any loose uh irresponsible anecdotes you you may have in your bag um regarding these The connections here on on whether specific to what I just mentioned or not? Yeah, sort of. Yes. Um I I've and in fact Tracy and I both have spoken to a

number of individuals who you go back to the 1950s and60s and and they were clearly being examined or groomed for future work along some lines like this. I I think I think what we could say is there were programs in place at least by the 1950s and then beyond that to identify Exceptional young people whether that would be through psychic phenomena or maybe you know more conventionally like through mathematics like who's got amazing talent that we're going to want to use. Obviously that those programs have existed for a long time, but definitely in terms of

some of the more unusual things like sigh phenomena or anything having to do with ETSs and I don't even know who's Running it. Are we running it or are they running it? Like there are some some very interesting behind-the-scenes stories of individuals. I find them totally credible and believable who have who have said to us, you know, uh I used to meet with these people. They would bring me out of my house at night. I would go and meet them across the field and I can't really remember what I did with them, but this went

on for years and years and this is what they look Like. Like I've spoken to people like that and um more than one of them more than one person. So there's there's something that's been going on for a long time by which uh special individuals are being identified cultivated for you know different purposes. I I believe that's the case. Yeah. There there are some elements of Martin in air quotes I guess Jordan's story that really illustrate this that even they don't know what they were Doing like they they train you know there's I won't go

deep into his story because I by no means have it um memorized and and don't want to uh you know get any of the details incorrect but there's this one um particularly just mind-blowing anecdote that he tells about So, so he's basically been living in this school, I believe, for uh I think it's like two years or something. He's like basically living on site at a School that appears to be um some kind of, you know, school for for uh academically gifted children or um maybe it's actually even like neurodeivergent children. But but either way,

he he came he comes to this through the gate program and you know there are various things that they experiments they're doing with him um that he outlines in his story. But there's one particular occasion that happens to him one time and it's just so weird that I wanted to Ask you if you've ever heard anything like this in anyone else's um stories where you know there's like all of these people like some team of people bringing this who have this box and um you know he's he's brought into this room later where the box

is like all broken apart and it's like this this thing has been assembled or has been brought out or whatever and it's covered by a cloth and there's a woman there who's telling him, um, okay, I'm gonna show you something And I want you to tell me how it makes you feel. So, she removes the veil from the cloth and it's like this orb. It's like some kind of like I think he said like two foot by two foot orb or something. I could be getting the dimensions wrong, but the orb is just like there's

some kind of like swirling energy inside of it. Lord of the Rings. Yeah, I know, right? It's like Sauron. Yeah, keep going. So, she's asking him, you Know, like you you know, like focus on this. How does it make you feel? like and I believe he he's sort of not getting too much from it. And she goes, "Well, take your time, but it's going to it it kind of decides who it likes." She says something like that to him. And then, you know, he spends time with this orb and and I can't remember if he

said anything super noteworthy happened, but the bottom line was he never saw the thing again. Like, it was it was clear That they wanted to expose him to this thing to see if he had whatever ability to connect to it. and it didn't seem to fully work out. So, he never saw it again, never got an answer about it. And it just remains one of those curiosities that it's like, look, let's just I mean, that could be a crazy story, but it could be true. Why? If we assume if if we credit enough UFO or

UAP stories to acknowledge that some very, very, very advanced, more technologically advanced Than us, is here. Well, then why would it be impossible to assume that some of their tech would be like something like that? I don't know what that thing is. There's all kinds of lore in the UFO field. There's the so-called yellow book and the red book and all of these are are said to be classified or secret uh either by the aliens or us uh transcribing the alien information that we're getting all of this special info somehow. And uh and we hear,

you know, Claims about artifacts of all types. So I I don't I've never heard that one before. That's that's a new one. But yeah, Stanton Friedman used to have his expression the gray box. Like you didn't know if it was true or false. You say, well, I'll put that in my gray box. Yeah, there's I have a lot of things in my gray box. Definitely. Yeah. And if I had just read this on Reddit, I'd be like, wow, this is deep in my gray box, but it's really interesting. But then, You know, Jordan coming forward

and being on Jake's team, it makes it suddenly seem a lot more like I might have to move this out of my gray box into my like seriously considerate box. Um, but yeah, at the end of the day, I mean, it's all just weighing people's stories that we can't confirm, which is so frustrating, but it obviously doesn't stop people like you and I from from speculating or being deeply interested. Well, I mean, there's there's things That we can say we know. Yeah. uh as opposed to and and what we can know is that there's a

genuine phenomenon that's real that has been denied by our military and our government for years and years and years. They lied. That's the word for it. They lied when they knew that there was actually something quite serious about it. I got into this subject decades ago by studying declassified US military documents about UFOs, flying saucers. And what was Proven, this is not speculation, this is proof, is that they were having astonishing encounters with objects that were described as looking like flying saucers because that's what they apparently were. Silver metallic reflective discshaped objects that uh attempts

to intercept failed that could run literally fly circles around our aircraft literally. And uh zip off hanging out over sensitive u you know areas where they weren't supposed to be. I mean all of that we have documented in quite a large number of declassified documents. Yeah. So so you you you're left with that and you have to ask if you want to be honest is this just someone's you know having fun creating a fantasy for years and years all these different people or is there something to it and I think it's fair to say there's

something to it. So we know there is something profoundly significant about this phenomenon. We Know that and that it's not just explainable by secret American or secret Russian tech. I I cannot think that's so there's something there. And and once we recognize that now now we're automatically going into a world of some extreme conclusions but justifiably so. Well, well, speaking of potentially the most uh extreme conclusions and also going back about as far as we can with the phenomena and and how it may or may not be interacting with us, one of the Things that

you really resurrected for me um and to and took out of like the deep gray box with the first part of Alien Agendas is the idea of genetic manipulation of some sort. Like it's the one part of that book that I actually I realized. You regret. You regret. Okay. I do. Yeah. I think it was a mistake. Okay. Well, well, then I won't even I mean, what why don't you address it however you want to because I I thought I thought it was interesting that you You took someone who was an outsider, an academic who

was my old friend Clemens. Yeah. Yeah. And we're citing her work as a way to be like, look, this this microphilin is it the microphiline um suddenly shows up in the human record and we we get massively more advanced very quickly from there. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if I believe that anymore. Um, I was I put that idea out there. It was about 5 years ago. And Colleen, she died um earlier than that. I think Around 2014 or so. I She was really a great lady and uh brilliant a brilliant friend. I will say

that. And she had this idea and you know to be fair she was writing about this in 2007 2008. uh but what one has to understand is in the last two decades of paleo anthropology that field has been going through a series of revolutions and so when I look at what uh this is a very strong interest of mine is human origins and I try uh to stay on top of what They're talking about in that field and uh I think I think the whole idea of this so the idea I'll just say this for

for the listeners and then I'll I'll say why I don't believe it anymore the idea and in In fact, I've already written my revision for that. I just haven't published it yet, but I'm going to. I've already written it out. It's all ready to go. But um the idea being yes, there's an alil. A alil is a variation of a gene. And this particular gene Called the microphilin gene is said to have a lot to do with human brain development. And uh and the gene is like we can tell um we can gauge that it's

anywhere from 14 to 60,000 years old. We don't know uh when it happened. So it could be as little as 14,000 years ago which which you know would be really well when we talk about uh in Earlier years we used to talk about the human creative explosion and so that's like all the cave art like 40,000 years ago and the amazing sculpture of a lion uh shaman that's uh from what is now Germany from I think 38,000 years ago. was an extraordinary extraordinary beautiful piece of artwork uh high level whereas a few thousand years earlier

human beings were not creating anything along at that level that that's that's true like it's true so um you know when Did we like we start with this incredible level of representational art 40 plus thousand years ago in various caves but the more I look at this I I that is a fascinating thing to do but the microphilin gene is in my opinion and not the explanation for it. Um we you know first of all we developed you could see the the whole development of human uh complex language. We still don't have a proper Handle

on that but the bow and arrow that was that was clearly invented uh 70 80,000 years ago at very least in southern Africa. and uh a lot of other variations and symbolic art like if you go down to uh there are some caves in southern Africa now where at least 100,000 years old where you can see evidence of representational symbolic artwork not at this not quite at the level that you get in the in the French caves But it started it seems to have started around 100,000 years ago possibly even earlier and like any of

these like they happen incrementally And then I think maybe by 40 50,000 years ago we might have hit a certain critical mass by which we were able to go even further. But I I guess what I'm saying is I don't I don't any longer subscribe to the idea that it was this genetic gotcha thing. Now it is it's not I'll say it's not impossible that Um that a genetic uh mutation having to do with neurodeensity of the human brain occurred around that time. There there is a lot of talk about this but my perspective now

is like there is no way that I am qualified to get involved in that discussion. Yeah. It's it it was I feel it was inappropriate, frankly, of me five years ago to to toss out this idea of the microphilin gene. I wasn't qualified. I didn't really have any Knowledge of that and I was just going off of uh some interesting ideas of of a friend of mine that I I just think it's incorrect and I need you to just own up to it. So I I've already written the uh revised version of that for alien

agendas and and so what I what I believe I I'll just what I think is that we have been observed for a long time like I believe that and the real question is have we been manipulated and Yes and it's an attractive thought to say that we have been but when I look at the very the story The development of homo sapiens is far more complex than I ever thought it was 10 20 years ago. It's really complicated. Like I just I can't I can't even begin to think how we Well, first we would have

gotten that generic. First, it's very humble of you to to admit that and not try to fight that. But but two, Yeah, I completely agree. It's like because I mean, let's just zoom out, right? There's something incredibly peculiar about the Earth. There's something incredibly peculiar about our solar system, at least relatively. Like I'm not an astrophysicist. I understand there are other like potential, you know, places that could support this kind of carbon-based life. But there is something incredibly at least relatively peculiar about our planet, about our Circumstance astronomically. And then there's something very peculiar about

human beings. And then there's something very peculiar about human consciousness. It seems like we are the only ones who create art, use language, um seem to have well I guess I don't know what the experience of a dolphin is or any other or or lower mammal or organism is for that experience. Maybe they're in some kind of like what we would consider to Be mystical state with their surroundings. Oh yeah, rule that out. I would never rule that out. Yeah, I think intelligence is a natural expression of life itself as an adaptive uh adaptive trait.

uh all life forms all life forms have to have some level of intelligence right like it's innate because because all life forms are competing for energy resources in order to live whether they're plants which I firmly believe have a kind of intelligence they're Operating with as well but then animals which what defines the animal is that it eats other life forms for its survival and so they eat plants and then they'll eat other animals and so uh they must develop intelligence because they're all in a predator prey environment and so intelligence is a clear uh

evolutionary adaptation that would benefit uh any species and so I think all species over enough time if you have an ecosystem that's um rich enough to support it they Are going to develop intelligence dinosaurs had a certain level of intelligence you know it's easy to forget we look we have a different level what I think makes us unique is that we developed intelligence because we we had to create a completely different way of existing once our ancestors left the trees and and they're walking now. They're walking. And so that frees up those front used to

be legs. Now they Become arms and they and and we learned that we can manipulate our environment and that by manipulating our environment that was more effective with more intelligence. And so we began to select over time for for intelligence and for better ability to manipulate because that was our secret our secret sauce our secret strength. And um and it took a little bit of time, but I think that this body plan that we have uh I would be willing to bet that on other worlds, This type of body plan, it's going to happen. In

other words, someone is going some life form will get lucky to find a way to manipulate their environment with something like hands and and to select intelligence that allows them to do that. Um and and once they can do that, once they realize that they can master other life forms on their world, they break they break the game as we did. You know, We discovered we can some genius in the past realized, oh, these grains that we've been walking by in the fields, these stalks of wheat, if you take those seeds and you crush them

and you put some water and then you cook them, there's famine insurance right there. you got bread. And so, and then they're like, "What else can we control? What else can we what other gifts from Earth are there?" Oh, we can we can round up these animals and we can just breed them Instead of go hunting for them. And then we realized we have the ability to control this planet. And I So, I think that we had a kind of runaway intelligence. Yeah. Is what happened. like we we had this ability for manipulation and it

created this ultimate positive feedback loop for us that allowed us to break the game. Yeah. Yeah. And the and I guess the question is how guided was that if if at all. I mean I I'm I'm very close to Pltonism And my own sort of uh philosophical disposition. So so I have no problem believing that it was guided by some kind of higher intelligence, logos, tilos. I think there's a logos. I believe that. I believe that there's um I used to I used to really try to guard what my public positions on these things were

because I was trying to protect my reputation. I don't care anymore. So, what I believe is that There is a divine intelligence that we that we are immersed in. It's and I'll you call it the logos, you call it the Holy Spirit. Almost doesn't matter to me. It's a if because if you if I think about what is the creation of this universe. So you know we're told cosmologists will say well 13 point what seven whatever 13.8 billion years ago whatever it is the universe in the most tiniest instant of an instant of a second

is created literally from nothing To more or less anything. It's like if you blink you missed it. So I asked myself the the amount of energy that created that was necessary to create all the matter currently in the universe had to be produced in that instant of a second. How could that be anything in my mind? I could I I can't think it's anything other than a divine intelligence like a omnisient type of intelligence by our standards. That's God. to say. And and so the God Intelligence I I could easily imagine permeates every every portion

of reality. Yeah. And it's there. Um and so is that what's guiding our evolution? I tend to think that the development of our intelligence is following a kind of some kind of law like some kind of law of development and it's just like do you invent or you discover mathematics? Well, I think I think Penrose said I Think we discover it and I that sounds right. You discover the principles are there. Right. Right. And so we're we are we're just following along those principles. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Penrose uses that triune model of reality where it's

essentially like the observer, the observed and the unseen third thing which he calls the platonic realm of forms and that we're all kind of co-articipating in in one another. And mathematics exists in this in this realm Of logos or what the platonists would have called noose in this like knowetic realm where there are these divine intelligences but also um immortal principles mathematics geometry that are embedded within the fabric of reality and that you know the more you sharpen your own logos the more you're able to access those things in some sort of a limited way.

And by the way, the the added fun part of Platonism, particularly um you know, if you're if You're willing to do the work and like read all of the uh neoplatonic thinkers, it is replete with not just intelligence in the form of mathematics, but beings, you know, beings that you can have relationships with, beings that you can have work through you, you know, archetypal um deities that are like there to be channeled through you. And that that has so many interesting parallels with the phenomenon. It's so crazy that we're talking about It's crazy for me

to think about this because it just shows what a long journey it's been for me. But anytime that you and I are on the same side of it a thought as Penrose is is a good day, right? Yeah. And I don't know where how far Penrose takes his plism like if he stops it at mathematical. I I don't know. I don't know. But but anyway, um be funny if Penrose believed in archons and deities and that kind of thing. I'm not not really sure if he would go There. Yeah's death bed, he just comes out

as like some fullblown esotericist member of some magic. I'm a Rosie Christian. Yeah, that'd be awesome. Please, please. Um, yeah. Speaking though of of people who are like getting up there in age, a lot of these people who were involved, you know, you mentioned some of them. Hal Putoff, Russell Tar, um, Valle, unfortunately, like, uh, some a lot of the remote viewers like Joe McMonagle. Joe showed Up to my gateway retreat and he made some joke like I got a big stack of things that are going to come out the second I die, you know,

and it's you got it's got to make you wonder like and it just happened with Melmrin right on Jesse Michael's channel. Absolutely. How many of like how like what kind of a treasure trove I mean I don't want to like sit here and you know hope that anybody's short for this world of course but the idea there could be a Lot of things that are about to go on the loose when when people's times are are up which is I hope I hope so yeah they're all they're all in their 80s or beyond. Um it's

it's great. Like I I consider myself a friend of a number of those people and they are um they're extraordinary and and a lot of them still will not like a guy like Hal Putoff is a great example. I think he's 88. He's he's quite he is just mentally so razor sharp it seems like. So Absolutely. Yeah. He's an extraordinary man and I've been lucky to know him for as long as I have. guys like him, they know they they have all their security clearances and uh I've had people ask me, "Why doesn't he just

spill everything he knows?" And I I just think they can't. Um I just think they they're not they don't feel safe to tell every single thing they know. I think they're feeling some of Them feel safer than they they did they would have 20 or 10 years ago. And so they are talking more. a guy like Kalpot is talking more than he ever ever did ever did. Um he's made it very clear that he he knows that there's ETSs that are here. Like I think he has made no bones about it whether they're ETS or

uh or ultraterrestrials. I think he used that phrase. Yeah. I think he entertains different things, but he I think he's now publicly saying pretty clearly like There's someone here. Yeah. There's no question about that. On that note, it's really funny because if you search his academic papers, you know, a lot of it is hard science physics, then there's like a paper in 2022 called like cryptoaterrestrials or something like that where it's almost just like he wanted to and I don't know if if if this is something he's done in the past, maybe he has, but

it just stood out to me as like, okay, you got all these Physics papers and patents and hard science and then suddenly you publish this paper talking about Yeah. extraterrestrial crypto terrestrial races. Yeah. But I mean what you know there there's there are very few reasons one would would do that. Well there's a few things like if someone's researching u how like there was a a letter that he clearly wrote that was leaked a number of years ago. Mhm. It was a letter he wrote in 1994. 94. A long time ago where he was um

was it to Bert Rutan? It was a letter that talked about his uh he was doing some private investigation of the Roswell case in 1994 and he had he had met someone and he had and this is this is all out there. It's out in public domain. So he clearly has been deep into this. It's been known uh but he's always had to be very careful of course about uh what he says in public. And yeah, his paper on the cryptoaterrestrials just a Few years ago, I think, put it a little bit more out there.

And you know, when the uh when the Davis Wilson notes leaked, uh I uh I got a statement from him about about those. That was 2019 where he kind of sort of authenticated them. Remind me what those are. Yes. Yes. So um this was a a huge controversy when it erupted in 2019. It was something that I had personally known about since 2006 And um talked a little bit about over a few years. So So Thomas Wilson was a US admiral during the Clinton and uh years and then the George W. Bush years where he

was um a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and then later became head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, the DIA. And in 1997, uh Dr. Steven Greer was making the rounds in DC to talk to individuals to about UFO related uh secrecy and rogue programs and things like this. He was Accompanied by astronaut Edgar Mitchell of Apollo 14 and a number of other people. And one one person they met with was was Admiral Wilson who was deputy head of intelligence for the joint chiefs at that time and um this is in April of 97

and and Wilson clearly was interested in what they had to say and uh Greer had information about certain uh reverse engineering type programs that he said existed. So Wilson went on A two-month uh journey to find those programs within the Pentagon. And he did. He found several special access programs dealing with this subject. He was able to speak directly to the managers of one of those programs uh of a private contractor. The these things were nested like uh the Matriosha eggs, you know, one egg nested inside of another. and he finds it. He flies out

there and they essentially blew him off. They told him a little bit of information. They said, "Yeah, we have a disc. It's not from here. It's not made by Earth, not by human hands." Um, and he says, "Well, it's your mistake that you've had not allowed me in for oversight of this program. This is within the DoD." And they said, "No, we don't really need to let you in. Who the hell are you to tell me I'm not allowed in?" Well, we just we don't really need to let you in. and he said, "Well, I'll

Complain." They said, "Be our guest. We're not afraid of you." The these are probably folks at Lockheed, but we don't know for sure. So, anyway, he goes back, he does complain, and he's threatened with his career. He gets all pissed off and uh after he retires in O2, the what I will call the Bigalow crowd, that is that all the people like Hal Putoff and Kit Green and and Dr. Eric Davis and Colm Keller and all of these folks, Jacqu Valet, they and Edgar Mitchell was part of that. Edgar Mitchell was part of that. And

so they sent Davis to go interview Wilson and he did and he wrote uh like a 15page typewritten uh transcript to the best of his ability of it. I read a a good portion a certain portion of those notes in 2006. I was shown them. Wow. And uh I got the backstory about it. I talked about what I could at various conferences back in ' 07, 08, 09, 2010. It's all on record. Um I on my website, I actually listed my the instances in which I talked about this anyway. Do you have reluctance to talk

about it? Well, there's certain things that I can't and still will not say. I will not say who's the person who showed me the notes. Sure. Sure. But it's someone it's a person who is able to do that. And uh and so what ended up happening was Wilson uh I I found out that it was Wilson at the end of ' 06 and I reached out to him and the person who who showed me the notes, he said, "Well, you know, you know, Wilson's not going to cop to this at all because like this would

bring the whole everything down." If Wilson were to admit that as deputy head of intelligence for the joint chiefs that he was denied access to an ET reverse engineering program, I mean, holy crap, That would just that would blow everything out of the water. And and I knew that, but I thought, well, I'm just going to give him a call anyway. And it was the only gotcha interview I ever planned on anyone. I I still feel a little bad, but I couldn't in advance tell Wilson, yeah, I want to ask you about these things. Right.

Right. So um but anyway he was willing willing to talk with me and then I I said uh yeah your name is connected to these Notes and to this meeting that you had um actually I didn't mention the notes I said this meeting that you had with Steven Greer because Greer actually did the the work for me. Greer had written about Wilson as well in a book that Greer had just written. Okay. Hidden truth forbidden knowledge. And he mentioned Wilson. He mentioned the meeting. And so I was able to uh to just get Wilson to

admit that yes, he did meet with with Greer and Edgar Mitchell, But then he just he got really angry and uh ended the call very quickly after that. He did not want to talk with me. Anyway, the Wilson Davis notes like it's very important because it's not a it's not a declassified document. It's not an official government document, but holy crap. It is a a very very detailed description by a brilliant scientist, Eric Davis, describing his conversation with this retired admiral about that retired admiral's failure to get access To black budget program for the purpose

of reverse engineering alien tech. I mean, doesn't get any better. Yeah, that's incredibly juicy. Were there any specific details of that note that you that really made you take notice? Yes, many um many. I mean, there are all kinds of names that were mentioned in that note that when you when you know the players involved, you you realize this is legitimate. The name of Oak Shannon. A lot of people don't know who He was, but when you see that name in there, you're like, "Oh, okay. We're on to something here." Or other names that are

like these little Easter eggs that are hidden in there where you research them and you realize the name Mary Elizabeth Elliott is one. Um, and who is she? She's she was a uh a woman and she was associated with another man named Jeffrey Griffith. They're both listed at the end of that those notes. Mary Elizabeth Elliott uh worked uh I think For TRW. Yes, that's right. Back in the 70s and 80s and she and Griffith and I believe he is still alive. He won't talk to anyone. they had some we're still not 100% sure but

they had some kind of um sighting and experience and and she through her experience at TRW I think had a tremendous amount of knowledge about some of the inside workings of this and I think he was her friend and lawyer if I get this right. Um but Anyway their names appear in the in these notes. Wow. and they provide a kind of interesting further bit of research. Like when you start looking into these different aspects of the notes, you realize like there's a lot of content in there. Wow. Um Wilson made the one quote uh

that Davis highlighted. He said, "When I I realized what this was, he says this was technology not of this earth Uh not made by human hands was his wow statement. not made by man is the other part of that. The whole thing came I I read I was shown three pages of that in ' 06. I wasn't allowed to photograph it. None of that. I just had to go off of memory. And then the whole thing leaked out in 2019. Okay. Okay. After Mitchell had died and in his estate, he he had talking about Yeah.

He had a full printed version of all the notes that Ended up uh in someone's hands who then JPEG them and then the whole thing got out before long. Was this You talk about something else in Alien Agendas having to do with Edgar Mitchell's estate. It's not the It's not the Carter story, is it? Or is it? Oh, that's that's I was given the Carter story by another very very high level a very very brilliant high level man who um is in a perfect position to know these things. So yeah, what I was told was

that in I think it Was in June of 1977, so Jimmy Carter was a new president. That was his first year as president. And I was told by this gentleman who again I must emphasize is extremely brilliant man. And who had very close association with uh that world. I'll just say uh that Carter was briefed and this man did not know exactly what was said except that it was related to the matter of ET UFO, but that when the meeting ended, Carter was seen with his elbows on the on his desk And his head in

his hands and he was either sobbing or looked like he was sobbing. Wow. Yeah, that's such a deeply upset. That's such a crazy story. What um what do you think he was told specifically? Do you have a theory on what the on what that version of events is? What the official version of events is? I can imagine a few things. Yes, I I have no doubt Carter was told a UFOs are totally real. That the uh entities operating them are vastly beyond our Ability to control. I I have no doubt he was told that. Uh

but what was the thing that upset him? Maybe that was the thing that upset him. Or maybe it was the fact that the secrecy about this was so intense that I have very little doubt that the president of the United States was was given to understand that there is no way this was going to come out and that people, you know, people could die. I think that I I I would believe that that's probably what he was told. I Don't know if that he was threatened himself, but maybe there might be all kinds of implied

um statements that were made along those lines. Um was he told that the aliens are good guys or not good guys? Uh I can I can say pretty confidently that within the classified world some of these people there's at least a prominent belief that at least one group is a scary group. uh that maybe not all of them because I think the impression that I've strongly Gotten is that the belief is that there are multiple groups that are here and that at least one of them you wouldn't want to be alone in a room with

that kind of thing. Yeah. Wow. So, so now we're I guess at least obliquely touching up against this, you know, what is people are calling the the legacy program, right? This group of aerospace contractors with basically bottomless pockets who have been doing possibly reverse engineering work who have maybe Even been working with some of these intelligences or alien races or whatever they are. um how cohesive of a thing do you think that is or is it just like a loose term for these um efforts to do like what I was just talking about like you

know maybe they found something and they all kind of passed this material around and tried to learn what they could from it all the way on up to like a very organized you know uh Greer style you Know hidden all powerful entity that's secretly pulling strings of everything from behind the scenes. What What do you What does your heart tell you? Yeah. Well, um you know, Harold Malgren, who just referred to him just recently in his exceptional interview with uh uh Jesse Michaels was was really important and then you know right after he did that

interview basically um his health collapsed and he died. Unbelievable. So One thing one thing he said that I really struck me as as exactly right is the the fragmentation of the knowledge that it's uh scattered in a variety of places so that no one group really has all the information but that I mean presumably there's some elite group that's collecting all the threads and that has the information but your question is you know there are all of these There's a variety of stories and claims Of various types of human non-human interaction and they're not all

completely congruent with each other, but there is there's enough of an overlap that I I tend to believe them. So you've got the story of someone like Dan Sherman who wrote a book called Above Black where he talked about having a kind of uh telepathic training within the Air Force to communicate with these beings in some way using computers. It's very interesting and I've I have always Found his case I mean it's not provable but he's given enough information about who he is. I I tend to believe him. I just I'll put that right out

there. Um, and then you have the other people like the late um, Bill U House who worked at um, in in the places out west like Area 51 type places or Dougway I think he was at where he talked about reverse engineering programs and literal collaboration with an alien that was called JROD. He has this whole story And u, he is a guy that I you know you can find clips of him out there and he's I think I believe him. I believe him. There's Bob Lazar. I Yeah. Um I I do believe the Bob

Lazar story. I think um I think it's true. I think it's a true story. And there's a bunch of others like this. So um I think they're not all exactly the same, but there's enough of an overlap that I I think that there's something going on. So I think there's been a com A type of communication. You know, we have the uh the legend or the story of of uh h of um Hollowman Air Force Base in 1964 where there was a landing and some kind of interaction. I I think that actually happened. So, um

you asked in the beginning of this interview, why why now? Yeah. And we were talking why now for disclosure, but I'm more interested in why now for them. Why are they making themselves known? Yeah. In greater numbers now. And I I have a definite thought about this. I personally believe going back to the Alien Agendas book, there's been a long-standing observation that predominantly for most of our time was somewhat observational and lowlevel, not not massive interference. I don't think so. I don't think that there's a good case to be made that they were actively interfering.

Some people believe that There were our religions or Jesus or Buddha or you know these uh people of the past were alien avatars. I don't know maybe I don't tend to think that. But um but I do think that once we as a civilization in the last couple of centuries mastered we got to a certain critical mass with science that we were able to take our domination of the planet into high gear once with industrialization and the understanding of of scientific principles that we Could apply to really create control the world. you know, to create

railroads and and telegraph and telephones and radio and missiles and atomic bombs and, you know, everything else that we do and computers like all of that happened really fast and I think that's what's brought them in. I think uh and I think the big conflration of World War II probably got their attention big time. uh and perhaps the detonation of nuclear devices probably. And and we can see Like there was there are some pretty good sightings of the ancient past, but not that many. Not that many. And it really explodes in the middle of the

20th century. It just goes through the roof. And I think it's not solely because we're able to notice them more. It's partly because of that. I mean, we have better detection methodologies and we're spread out all over the place now. we can see them but you know we people lived outdoors all the time hundreds of Years ago and occasionally they would note something unusual but you know it's not like today uh I think there's a much more active presence so I think I think the fact that we're about to leap into their world as I

like to put it that's gotten their attention and they know we need to keep an eye on these people because these humans they're very observant they've they're they've discovered the keys to the kingdom And you know, we're we're this close now from AGI and uh all kinds of very advanced quantum computing. And so we're we're reinventing ourselves as a species, not just as a society. You know, I call it the fourth stage of humanity, which in fact I think I mentioned in the Alien Agendas book. We're we're fundamentally creating a new form of human social

organization and um basically probably turning ourselves into a different kind Of a species in a way. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. The the the topic of ancient sightings or lack thereof is really interesting because it's depending on how esoteric you're willing to go. You know, if you read something like um on the mysteries by Ayamblicus, who's this neoplatonist sage who's living in like around two to 300 CE like um the phenomenology of you know do so so he was really into this mysterious practice that we've lost a lot of the details in Called theergy and it which

essentially means something like working with the divine and when he starts talking about manifestations of things uh he uses words like photo goia which is like types of light that come to you and he also talks about like soul like being able to call down like soul vehicles of deities and stuff like that. So, if you're willing to go into the more esoteric stuff, you're like, well, wait a minute. Like, you know, it kind of Puts you back in the sort of like ancient aliens territory of like boiling everything back down mystical and anomalous to

that again. But I have a hard time. I I like you think it's probably multiple things like you you have these uh what we would call I would probably call spiritual or consciousness-based phenomena. Then you probably have like bridge things like which kind of seems to be what what uh Barber is pointing to with like you know The the mental deep emotional connections he made to that eightgon craft or whatever. So, so, so it seems like there's this spectrum of like, as you pointed to, nuts and bolts, perhaps literal extraterrestrials or something else or a

mixture of things that are physically real to things that can uh that are transmedium to things that are fully in this realm of like whatever we want to call it, the astral, the noose, the the consciousness, Whatever. Um but but yeah that that point that you brought up about why is it a good time for them I think is a very good way to frame it because to your point there are so many novel technologies that are emerging now you know AI especially quantum computing especially but the the other thing in this book that I

wanted to bring up um I guess one of the other things I wanted to bring up is this idea that maybe it's not going to be Some you know sudden pulling of the tablecloth off of reality. It's that they've been sort of seeding themselves through humanity for a long time in a lot of ways, but also literally also like literally in terms of like mixing their genetics with our genetics and um possibly even positioning themselves in important uh places of power. And once you open that door, oh my god, again, we're in like massively skitso

Territory, but you you do a good job of like I think making that sound really plausible. And is is that is that one of those things to to my memory you you said you may have changed your mind on along the way like you No, I I'm I'm very No, I mean in terms of taking it more seriously than you did like years and years and years ago. I No, I think it's absolutely for me it is on the table. In other words, the question of infiltration, yeah, is what It sounds like. And that has

got to be on the table. It it can't not be on the table as a possibility. How could it not be? Honestly, you know, when if you think about just logically how it would be if if you were one of them, if you were if you were an alien um and now you're you're here. Uh and you have a you have a mission. That's I guess so your mission would be what is it just to observe? Maybe maybe it's just to observe and to And to and preserve as much uh biological diversity as you can

because we're going through our sixth planetary extinction process right now and that's a reality and we're just you know it's happening and so you might want to just preserve life forms including the human one. Uh, also if you know that they're all toxifying themselves with plast microplastics and all other kinds of crap that we're ingesting and and transforming and and probably harming Ourselves and the global environment, you might want to be tracking that. I you can easily see some kind of longitudinal longitudinal eco study. But also you might covertly maybe hiding it even from your

own superiors or maybe hiding it from other intelligences that may be here too because there could be for all we know there could be a massive power play going on here. You might want to Create your own avatars and insert them within human society in some way or another. How many researchers have I talked to have told me exactly this like good researchers who are convinced that there are humanlooking others that are infiltrated and and living within our society often just having ordinary lives but they but they report back to you know their hierarchy. Is

that is that complete nonsense or is it just science fiction Or could it be true? Well, I would say it could definitely be true and and there's a logic to it as well. It's not hard to see the logic, right? Uh and then when you combine that with a number of accounts that all of us researchers have gotten, myself included, of of human looking beings that don't seem quite like the rest of us, you do have to wonder. But it's a theory. Um, but it is a theory where you know a if you also because

I I don't just study UFOs. I've Studied geopolitics my entire entire life longer than I've studied UFOs. And so I'm deeply interested in the understanding the true structure of power as it exists on this world of ours. And that's not easy to do because that's not something that you're just taught, right? That that you get taught in in your uh sixth grade government class. Uh you got to figure it out. And so um but you realize that there's a very small hierarchy at the top of the Human pyramid. It's there. These are the people who

run the Bilderberg meetings. Yeah. They at the World Economic Forum. Yep. They're all those guys. That's real. And so if you were an alien and you wanted to manage human society, you you would want to maybe somehow get your hooks into that. Is that what they're actually doing? I I can't say that I know. I've had amazing conversations with brilliant researchers who are very convinced that that's the case and um You know for my part it's it's one of several viable theories that um I I do consider. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, to your point,

the the logic of it, right, is could you just if you had some extremely advanced uh technological capabilities, could you just make yourself look like them or us rather? Sorry, I just outed myself as a as a member of of them. Um, well, could could you you know, yeah, you could do that, but yeah, you you but you don't know Necessarily exactly where they're at in their development unless there's something about you that is fundamentally the same. So maybe there needs to be actual mixing of, you know, genetic material to to pull, you know, I

guess it depends. See, I I go right to the sort of poninoic conspiracy of if they're trying to assist us in our uh evolution or our status or or whatever. But of course, there's a easy they would though. A lot of them would want to Assist us because they'd be looking at us and they're thinking, okay, so these these people, they're smart. like they would see that they would see that we have we have the fundamental thing in common with them which is that we have uh the ability of engaging in abstract intelligence, mathematics and

science and like we we can do at maybe a lower level what they can do. So we're we're like them and but they also see that um maybe like them too. All of our Developments really came around in my opinion as a result of collective violence warfare. I mean that's that is our we don't like to admit this about ourselves but that's how if you really look at all of our technology all our development it's it's all that it's all based on collective violence human groups against each other competing uh for extreme territoriality and control

over resources and we fight fight fight and kill. It's we there has never been a Period of human history when we have not done that. And you go back through our prehistory and we've done it. Some of the earliest uh fossils of uh homo sapiens and Neanderthal skulls, they've got like puncture holes in them from you know being hit with blunt objects and uh arrows and things like that. Like it's very and to say nothing of things like cannibalism and the like. All of that's real too. We have been engaged in hardcore violence against each

other Since forever. And so they're looking at us and they're thinking these these people, they're smart, but man, they're super violent. And uh and we just watched them do World War II, and that was pretty bad. And now we've got, you know, in the second half of the 20th century, we watched them detonate over 2,000 nuclear uh bombs. From 1945 to 1998, I think we detonated over 2,000 atomic bombs, nuclear hydrogen bombs. So, um there's that and all the other Stuff that we do. Genocide. How many genocides have taken place in the 20th century alone?

A lot. They're watching all of that and they've got to be thinking they're going to have soon they're going to have strong AI, they're going to have quantum computing, they're going to have nanotech, they're going to have like all the crazy stuff that we have uh and they are hyper Violent. What do we do about that? So you could see that they would be thinking if they have our interests in mind, they may or may not, I don't know, but they would be thinking, "Yeah, we need to find a way to chill these humans out

so that they're not quite as hyper maniacally aggressive." Yeah. Yeah. It could just be like uh a kind of benevolent uh eugenics or something. I I want to believe that. I want to believe that. And yet it would It would take away a bit of our edge, though, too. I mean, it would. It really would. It absolutely would. And you know it's it's funny how many you know this if there is something secretly being seated into popular stories whether by the human unconscious or some group that means to that seems to be the biggest taboo

doesn't it? This idea that you you it's fundamentally evil to a person's uh agency even if their agency is going to inevitably cause harm or Death. Like even just think about um the Avengers, right? Like that's what it ultimately comes down to like the whole story of like Thanos, right? He I actually am not familiar with this. I mean his overall so he's you know he's this huge cosmic villain alien basically and he wants to wipe out half of the universe's population to essentially save it from itself because it's going to like destroy itself whatever.

But the heroes of the story preserve Agency and and and at the cost, right, of of basically prolonging collective life because we all agree like no, you can't take away somebody's agency and their liberty and their ability to and whatever modicum of free will they have. That's like the ultimate wrong. So in some way like totally agree with that. I completely agree and I agree and I agree too. But al but also to your point maybe higher intelligence if it exists knows that to a degree we need to give up some Of the edge but

maintain some of the edge and and where that balance is is a very interesting question. It's the process of domestication. We've domesticated ourselves. So you know you think of uh animals that we've domesticated sheep. Think of a wild sheep compared to a domestic sheep. Very different very different creatures. Um the domesticated sheep's brain is I think has lost a third of its mass from a wild sheep and you know they're very Docile and that's how we like them and they they create a lot more uh wool than uh sheep in the wild. Well, we like

that too. So we've we've domesticated and we've transformed them over 10,000 years but we've also done that process to ourself. So, we are uh I think there's a less native uh uh aggression. Like I would bet anything that male testosterone generation is much less now than it was 10,000 years ago. Probably not even Close. So we've but that's had to happen because when you have human beings now living in tightly packed societies which we've had for the past 10,000 years uh you can't have all that violence because it's it's just destructive to the community. And

so men and women have had to learn new behaviors. we call them laws and you know mores and things like that to in order uh in order to allow us to cooperate in collective units so that we're not at each other's throats all The time. So so two men don't have to kill each other when one guy sleeps with someone else's wife which is really how these laws all started. You have to have people behaving and and that means you have to uh you are slowly breeding out certain qualities over a number of generations. That's

the process of domestication. So we are doing that to ourselves and in theory like over a long enough period of time I could imagine that the human Species will continue to to do that. Um and and that's okay as long as we continue to exist within this artificial environment we've created for ourselves. If if, god forbid, we were to lose this, if we have some kind of ecos or uh infrastructure collapse and we're out to live in the wild, we wouldn't I don't think we would survive, right? Because we've lost we've lost the a lot

of those natural abilities and we kind of bred them out of ourselves. Yeah, that's for Sure. That's for sure. And we're dependent on the technology. And I guess we should be clear too that we're we're not just uh jerking off our imaginations here logically saying, "Well, if this would make sense, then that would make sense." you from all the research you've done and you you highlight in the book is that this is like a major throughine of what experiencers experience like what they have seen when they're when they're having you know it's a huge um

Trope in everybody's abduction experience that you know there's a there's a acquisition of genetic material or reproductive material. Uh they they seem to have created these like really uh physically attractive beings completely for the express purpose of populating with and reproducing with human beings. Um so yeah, please take it over from there because you know so many specific stories and highlight so many Specific stories. It's actually I've not put it that way. So that's interesting. Okay. Okay. Um but I wonder if that's part of it. Yeah. So there's definitely there the the genetic manipulation part

of the encounter experience is is clearly front row center when you you deal with abduction researchers you know the classic ones whether it's Bud Hopkins or John Mack or David Jacobs uh or or the people doing it Today there is still this idea of hybridization is very very central to it and you know Not every out a lot of outside people who are not familiar with the subject will believe this but I will just say there's a lot of uh persuasive research on it that I I do believe I believe that there is a hybridization

program going. Uh what is the purpose of that hybridization program is the real question. Yeah. uh are these hybrids being inserted into human society for The purpose of changing human society for one way or another or for them to infiltrate human society in some way and I don't I don't really have the answer to this one. Uh there are people who think it's a really wonderful positive thing and there are people who think it's a very highly negative thing. And I I don't know. I don't really know what I think about this, but I would

say that it it makes sense if you're if you're an extraterrestrial and You come to Earth, you're going to have certain problems uh with your own biology in acclimating yourself to Earth. I have to think, you know, you might be bipedal like us. You might have a similar basic body plan, but you wouldn't be right for Earth. The gravity might be wrong. The solar radiation might be wrong. Uh the microbes that you encounter might be wrong for you. So, you would need to adapt uh your physiology so that you're because you Want to live on

Earth because Earth is a great place. Who wouldn't want to like have a 300 year lifespan and and have caviar on the French Riviera if you could do that uh and come here? So maybe they would want to do that and they would want to inhabit a human type body and do all those wonderful things because Earth is a great place like if we you know keep the environment clean and I mean it's awesome. They might look at Earth and think wow it's a really Great place like there's planets that have life but look at

Earth. It's got immense amounts of life on land, immense amounts of life in the water. Uh it's got jungles. It's got great plains. It's got everything. It's got it's got everything. We have a super abundance of life. It's not we're not just scratching out a little meager existence here. We are this is a great planet for life. So, um I'm sure they see that and they're thinking I'd like a little piece of That. I could I could not be surprised at all if someone thought that. And so creating a hybrid species genetically for them might

might be what they want to do. Yeah. Yeah. So, this begs the question, hybrid of what, right? I mean, there there are these this common cast of types of uh beings that are described, but I'm not sure if I've ever come across before this book um the hierarchical argument exactly as You lay it out, that there could be this hierarchy of beings and that this the anecdotes that have been, you know, told throughout the lore seem to support a certain I guess like pecking order of the of the maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Some of this I

was guided uh or at least I was inspired by David Jacobs and and and David can be very controversial for some people. There are people who love his work and people who hate his work because David Jacobs has always believed That they are here to take over our planet. It's planetary takeover and we need to defend our species from them. He is very very explicit about that. But you can believe that or not. But what he believed in his I mean he did regressions on hundreds of individuals and his belief is that there is a

hierarchy and that in his view the highest level of beings were these insect insect type creatures. He calls them insectins or insecttoids and that They seem to have the strongest amount of telepathy and that they when they appear in people's accounts of abductions, they are always the ones in charge. They are always the ones that seem to be directing things. Uh and that there are the you get the little gray aliens that seem to be uh there's different levels of those. Some of them are just like drones and they're there for uh operations, you know,

they they do they do the jobs. Um and that there Is different different um versions of that. Um and then you've got other types of beings that people notice. There's humanlooking beings. How do they fit into this? You have some people will describe as reptilian looking. How do they fit in? And I don't I don't know. I don't know how they all fit together truthfully. I suspect though that the ones who look human were probably modified from our Own genetics at some point. Could be thousands of years ago. And uh you know they got us

working for them. You know that certain group of humans uh could very well be in middle or even upper management with with some alien civilization for all I know. Yeah. You would need you would need humanlooking people to infiltrate and to function on Earth for your interests. you would have to have. Yeah. Yeah. The the idea that we're working with them like aspects of Our own military industrial complex are working for them for potentially malevolent reasons, even like locally malevolent reasons, but like with some greater uh picture, you know, where they can where the ends

justify the means, right? Like, well, we need to do this because we have this big long hundredyear agenda. We've committed to co-working with them. Even that is pro still pretty disturbing for the person who's being uh, you know, hypothetically Abducted and experimented upon and having, you know, implants rammed up their nose or, you know, being sexually violated or whatever's going on. And there are a lot of stories like that. You you tell um Yeah. You tell a story in the book about these like newly recruited Marines who are brought somewhere and like um that was

from I think that was one of Preston Dennett's stories if I'm not mistaken that I I took from him. Now, um, that was one where I think he was recruit he was trying to remember. It's been 5 years since I've looked at that story. So, he was taken to a base. This is where they ran into a very powerful reptilian. Yes. Yes. Being Yeah. But it was like but working with like basically it was like uniformed, right? Yes. Exactly. Yeah. connection supposedly with Air Force and then this big scary reptilian uh creature was seen at

this place According to this yeah I don't know if it was Air Force maybe it was yeah it might have been Marines uh but yeah this collaboration I don't know what to think of it I mean I found um I found the guy's account to be as believable as the way that the way that Preston investigated it I thought yeah I I think I I might believe this. So, I put it in there. Yeah. What do you think of um other stories that have materialized more recently like with people like Herrera? And there's um the

you know, right, there's a there's a clean line between that and all of the psionic asset stuff that Barber talks about, which is which is always interesting when you can put when you Yeah, I've spoken directly with Michael Herrera. I don't think so. But I I believe his I think he's truthful. So he has this story about being out he was out in Indonesia and seeing this massive craft um as a marine. Yeah. As a Yeah. And uh No, I believe that. I think I believe that. Um the thing that we have to recognize is

if if you it's there's a lot of if then statements in eupfology like if if there are aliens here if they're here in any form then there has to be an infrastructure associated with that. There's got to be probably a substantial infrastructure associated with them and with us covertly to deal with them. Yeah. Especially now that we've if it's been like going for 80 years minimum, you know, since Roswell or World War II, then you've had 80 years of a human infrastructure to develop around this and it would have to be a massive secret infrastructure.

So some of the things that a guy like Michael Herrera is reporting would make sense, frankly. Yeah. And for the the quick nutshell version of that story, in case people are just like, "Wait, who is this? What Happened?" He is a Marine who was deployed for essentially like a um almost like a not a peacekeeping mission, but it was in the wake of some natural disaster in Indonesia. And they were it it was a very kind of casual deployment where they were not at all concerned about running into hostiles or anything, but they happened to

see something over the treeine deep in like a rural part of Indonesia that looked like a craft. And they themselves are Basically captured by another human group. Yes. with with better guns than they had. American accents, American looking gear. Yeah. Um using military terminology, making it clear that these were like special forces type guys, but they were in all this debadged um uniforms basically. And they were working with what seemed to be an ARV, like reverse engineered alien reproduction vehicle, um where they were transporting people. And and Herrera's Initial belief was that these people were

being like kidnapped or human trafficked. Yeah. Yeah. And then Barber um this other UFO whistleblower communicates with him saying like you're pretty much right, but it's not like they're being human traffic. Like these people know what they're be signing up for. They are like we treat them really well and and yeah. What do you think about that? I mean like that that's a I mean I I I I think we should continue to Explore it and to do our best to fact check it. Um it's a it's a valid thing to be looking into at

this point. Yeah. And and part of the you know the subtext of the story is that these people may have been traumatized and that there's some role that trauma plays in unlocking potentially psychical abilities, you know. Yeah. Well, we know this. Yeah. That's what MK Ultra was about, right? You you create uh trauma based conditioning. There there's this the Great story u of Kathy O'Brien, you know, from the the really un underground book called the transformation of America, a play on the words of word trance. Oh. And um she I don't know if she's alive

anymore. Uh her her partner was a man named Mark Phillips. Anyway, so she said, you know, I was mind I was broken mentally, mind controlled and and she was made into having multiple personalities uh to be a basically a an escort at the highest Levels of power, but not just that, but a crier of information, classified information. So like she would be given something very very important uh and then uh hypnotic command like in the manurion candidate type of a scenario and then she would just go to this other place and they would know the

code to unlock what was in her mind and she would give a message. So she was a mind controlled corer and it was all done through traumab based conditioning. That's crazy. That's what she claimed. Do do you know about Jesse mentioned this offhand to me when this topic came up and he mentioned that Bigalow has some interest in achieving this kind of trauma through putting people in like a a G-lock like some some kind of like um like putting them in a high G you know all like an astronaut like putting them in a high

G situation and somehow the stress from that can serve as a way to to achieve this. I I don't know if There's like obbees associated with that or or how that's supposed to work, but I was I was just curious if you had ever heard. I'd not heard that, but that that makes perfect sense to me. This is the thing about uh trauma and the mind. You know, uh one of the things that a lot of folks are talking about these days is something called the telepathy tapes. You might might and this is very similar.

So you have people who are diagnosed they're neurode Divergent they're autistic we can say and uh who seem and I I'm one of the I believe this I think that this is really true they seem to have extraordinary capabilities and not only extraordinary psychic capabilities but extraordinary intelligence that I think we were really un most of us um were unaware that a lot of these people had like exceptional intelligence you know. Yeah. Um, but what is that all about? It's like part of your part of your brain doesn't work The way it's that other people's

brains work. So, you can't uh your sensory inputs all different. It's all screwed up in a sense. And you you can't relate to the world. And so, what happens as a result? Part of your mind goes elsewhere and it's able to do other things. And I think traumabased conditioning is probably works along those lines. It's like it does something to screw you up in one way. Yeah. But it then opens you up in another way that is Valuable to someone. I I think that's what it is. Yeah. And it's interesting how it seems like it

can happen via a variety of methods like for all the way from like a real classical near-death experience like um Yeah. uh you know the story of like David Mohouse, he was one of the re remote viewers for the army and he started experiencing uh anomalous things and out-of- body experiences after a um he was he was leading a machine gunning training course in uh Jordan. They were training Jordanian soldiers and one of the Jordanian Jordanian trainees purposefully turned the machine gun on the American trainers and he took a machine gun round to his Kevlar

helmet and went out of almost died and like went out of body and like from there started experiencing things. Um so McMongle fell out of a helicopter died. Yes. So, yeah, I think these these are very important like uh it it can trigger this type of a thing or, you Know, even if it's not a near-death experience, uh I could imagine some kind of extreme trauma uh could could conceivably do it as well. Have you ever I guess on this note, have you ever had any anomalous experiences or do you Yeah, but not not along

along the lines of some people can talk about. So my my anomalous experiences are pretty pretty low level but I have had a couple yes for sure. Um I had Uh both personally and what I witnessed. So the one I love to talk about which happened about uh five six years ago was when my father passed away. My my dad died in December of 2018. And this was something where his health had been pretty bad for a little while. He was almost 80. And um I spoke to him that day. It was December 2nd, 2018.

And I was on the phone with him. He was hospitalized and we had a nice Conversation. And you know, I'm so happy. The last thing I ever said to my father. The last thing was, "I love you. So glad." Uh we hung up the phone and a few hours later, I'm in the living room with my wife and Tracy. We're just She's on her laptop over here. I'm on my laptop here. GG. Whatever we're doing. And I I had just installed these two uh ceiling lights, recessed ceiling lights. I was so proud of them. They

had lace dimmer setting. And And I had them on The dimst setting. And Tracy noticed at first she's like, "What's going on with those lights?" And they were going bright, dim, bright, dim, just like this at this pace. And uh I looked at the lights and I got all huffy about it. I was like, "Brian's a licensed contractor. That should not be happening." I I get up off the couch and uh I'm watching the lights and they're just spazzing out like this, you know, And I jam the switch up and down a few times to

turn it off and that was the end of it. So 15 minutes later, one of my sisters called me to say that our father had passed away 15 minutes earlier. I will never ever ever believe that's a coincidence. I know it's not a coincidence. So then the other part of it is my what did my father do? Did he GPS my house and get into my wiring at this moment of death to say hey Richie look What I can do. Um or what I believe happened this this is part of my belief is that we

all access a what I call it a meta intelligence. It's there and you can train yourself to open to it or when you die you're you are merging with it again because that's our home. It's like you're the drop of water and there's the ocean. That's it. Right. So I think he somehow and that intelligence is is a super genius level intelligence. It's ultra genius. It's it's smarter than we Can imagine. and and he somehow knew I mean it's crazy to say what lights could get my attention. Those lights that we just installed to get

into the wiring and to get my attention at his moment of death, but I've had a couple of experiences personally that I think are weird. I mean, I had a couple of I can call them UFO sightings that are somewhat interesting, but the real interesting paranormal experience I had was in my 20s and um I was Uh it was the middle of the afternoon in the summer of I think it was 1988, so I would have been 26 as a young guy. And I did something that I almost never did, which was I went to

my apartment in the middle of the day and I laid down on the bed. I was fully clothed. I was lying down on the bed and I took a nap. I would never take naps back then. I'm taking a nap and I'm in that uh hypnogogic state. I'm not I'm not Asleep and I'm not fully awake and I realized, oh, let's see if I can do an out of body. I was like really excited about go. Yeah. Yeah. So, um so I'm like, okay. So, I visualized a window opening up in the ceiling of my

bedroom. M I and I could I think my eyes were closed. I actually can't remember. I can't remember. Anyway, I visualized a a bright window in the ceiling and I thought, "Okay, I'm going to go through That window." And when I go through that window, that means I'm going to have an OBBE. And so I started I felt myself, you know, rising out of my body, right? And and they're weird the weird thing is that I heard it was like a siren. It wasn't a real siren from outside. Yeah. It was a siren that I

was hearing. It was like getting higher and higher pitched and louder and louder. As I was approaching this window that I've created with my Mind. And just at the moment that I was about to go through the window, I swear this happened. I It was as if someone smacked me hard on the side of the face. And it felt like a smack. Wow. On on my head. And the next thing I knew, I was sitting bolt upright in my bed thinking, "What the hell just happened to me?" And um after I I got over my

shock, I I chuckled to myself. I'm like, "Someone doesn't want me to go out there. Maybe it would have been foolish for me. Maybe I didn't really know what I was doing, right?" Uh I hadn't gone through any kind of spiritual discipline, that's for sure. I just thought, "Hell, I'm going to do this and see have some fun." And that was probably a stupid idea. Yeah. No, I so so as I as I mentioned, I went to Monroe Institute and um I won't get deep into the story because I did a whole long video on

it, but um to just sort of ruin the punchline, I was having a great experience throughout the Retreat, but they were really trying to make sure we understood that we we know a lot of you want to go out of your body. You might, but uh and actually Bob Monroe's daughter Penny was one of the instructors and she's like 5% of you if that are going to have a true out-of- body experience. Don't like enjoy the experience. Don't try to force anything. Don't work yourself up to be disappointed, whatever. So, I was having a great

experience. I had some profound Experiences throughout the week, but I didn't feel like I was even close to the one of the group or the couple of the group that would be the one to achieve this state. Long story short, the last day of the retreat, second to last uh meditation we did, I had an extremely extremely like lucid dream type experience where I was just in a room looking out a window just thinking it was real life because it was so tactile and just Everything looked incredibly real. But then I slowly started questioning where

I was and I remembered like no I'm in the bed meditating like I'm I'm I'm doing I'm doing a hemisync session in the check unit right now. And then as soon as I remembered that I was back in my body and I was having that um that classical sensation of the energy rushing through the body like very very very strongly like so strongly that it was like uncomfortable and I tried to Move and when I tried to move full peel away occurred and I started levitating and it was terrifying like it was it was like

truly one of those experiences where you know my fear was that if I did have that experience I would come away from it being like Well, maybe it was a dream, maybe it was this, but this was like as real as that slap in the face that you were talking about. It's just you, you know, like everything in your being Knows like you were doing something that maybe you're not supposed to do or maybe you're not ready to do and I felt like I had just like narrowly escaped like a car accident or something. Um,

so it was that real and that visceral. But yeah, to your point, it seems like almost everyone experiences this high degree of either initial fear or uh like admonition from something being like don't do this. Um you know uh Chris Ramsey from the Area 52 channel. Yes. Um He so he was the one who actually connected me with Monroe Institute and in one of his couple of out-of- body experiences he had he uh you know got up in the middle of the night, went back to bed, was feeling the sensation. and he's like, "I think

I could go out of body right now if I wanted to." So, he does and he approaches his window and a very very loud booming voice says something like, "What are you doing to him?" And like and he like freaked out and went Back. So yeah, the this sense that I'm not of the mind that you shouldn't do it, but the idea that maybe there's something there are some considerations that we're ignorant of as as seekers, I'm totally open to that idea. I mean, let's just be real about it. Like, if you think about a

non-human intelligence, like we we've just gotten out of wooden huts, you know, like a couple of generations ago. We're we're we're Smart. Yeah. We know thing, but we're not like we're not as advanced as we could be. And imagine I I' I like to think about what these an extraterrestrial being might be like. Forget an interdimensional being. Just like an ET being that has like a a a like an IQ of 300 or 500. Like is that impossible? No, it's not impossible. That has a hive mind. So they're telepathic. Uh they operate on a level

that we can't relate. No, we cannot Relate to that. So, you're sitting across from such a being, it would probably be ultra intimidating, even even if they're not hostile. Like, you're s you're looking at another being that's five times smarter than you and it doesn't laugh at all your jokes, right? It doesn't it doesn't um it doesn't see things and it can get into your mind and it can all the little secrets that we keep from ourselves even like they can get it all. Whitley Strieber wrote about this once years ago and he likened it.

He says like you could feel like you're a terrified dog in the presence of its master. Like you can just whimper. And I think that there's something to that. So now here we are. We're going to trapes off into whatever astral dimension that there is out there. Who the hell knows what's there and we're like, "Oh yeah, it's all cool. We'll go out there. Nothing can happen." Well, maybe maybe we should Just be a little more cautious about that. Definitely. Um, one of the things I think about all the time with, you know, all the

like the new age gobbledegook where people are just encouraging everyone to do everything and everything's love and light and everything's, you know, uh, great and the there are aliens and they're super benevolent 5D creatures who have like they want us whatever. Yeah. You go back to the ancient sources. I I don't care What culture you're looking at. If it's if it's Indian culture, Greek culture, whatever, they all stress the importance of purification and being like extremely humble before you approach any kind of like exotic outof body state um like fasting and you know abstaining from

certain foods, doing all kinds of things to prepare yourself. And and we don't do any of that. We don't even know how to like if you told me to purify myself, I'd be like, "Uh, okay, I guess I'll Fast and take a shower, not have sex for a while, and but but we don't know like what that means or why or whatever." Um, no, we have a culture that's exactly opposite. We have a culture that really degrades us and and pulls us out of the any kind of higher thinking for the most part. Yeah, we're

opposite. Yes, unfortunately. And I think we're starting to get some of these fluencies back, but I think we've got a very, very long way to go. Um, extremely long. Yes. I mean, yeah, very long way. I think we're getting deep into conversation and I wanted to ask you this before we wrap up for sure, which is what do you see coming down the pike with your ability to sort of read the tea leaves, see where how far disclosure has come in the last couple of years? First of all, since 2017, it's just been like a

one explosion after another. Um, but combined your tea reading abil tea leaf reading ability with your Connections and things that you're aware of, what do you think is going to rear rear up in the next couple of years? Well, there's a couple uh all short answer, I I can't say that I know. Long answer. So we're dealing with a few big transformative things happening in our world and they cannot be seen separately from each other. So one is like the technological revolution and along with that comes a uh a necessary geopolitical and social and sociological

revolution Like it's all tied in together because really when you have a world where you're creating a digital panopticon where no one will ever have privacy for the rest of all time and that's just that's going to be the world that is the world and it's just going to get more so that's going to transform and then on top of that where AI is taking more and more people's jobs uh this is inevitable that this cannot be avoided. So we are outsourcing our own Uh intelligence and our own capabilities to algorithms increasingly and so um

and then you have a you know the younger generations are growing up like glued to their phone like just like this living on Tik Tok and and we can see mental illness is is going up uh attention spans are going down. This is all measurable. There's really no there's no controversy about this. Um there's a lot of psychological damage that we're doing to ourselves as A species because of the kind of world we are creating and we cannot help ourselves. So all of that's happening and at the same time we're we're creating a global governance

system. I mean there's there's fights going on right now. This that's why Trump got elected frankly. That's why you see like a re reaction in different parts of Europe against um against the kind of centralist EU bureaucracy and all of that. So but I Think in the long run the centralizing digital uh tendencies are are going to probably win out because I I think because that's that's what the technology demands. It demands global centralization and a kind of global totalitarianism. Um I I just see that as probably happening. It doesn't matter what I want because

I don't I don't want that but I think that's going to happen. So that's let's say long-term next couple of Generations that's going to be in place. Uh centralized complete management of of narratives. I would like to be wrong here but I I just think that's what's going to happen. So at the same time though the knowledge of these other beings is becoming more and more difficult to deny. So I could imagine that there'll be a very um Controlled very controlled narrative that comes out on what we call disclosure. the the problem that I've always

seen is like I used to call it like how do you become half pregnant like a little bit pregnant. So like in other words if you're going to put this secret out there if if you're going to say the reality that there are other beings here how do you not u acknowledge all of the other things You've done the the 80 plus years of cover up and conspiracy the um the fact that you've got all of their tech. the fact that you've completely subverted your Republican institutions in service of this secret. Uh the fact that

you've corrupted your academic society, your academic institutions, your politics, uh your media, all of that became totally corrupted. Like how do you how do you give up some of this secret without giving up all these other things? But I Think that that's exactly what the plan is. They're going to give up uh as restricted amount of information. So if you think of the UFO reality as this mountain, uh they'll take like a little sliver of that, the sliver that's, you know, follows the rule of cover your ass and they will protect themselves to the max

and they will they will uh try to get away with that by controlling by controlling all the narratives. And the question is can they do that? Is that is That possible or is that not possible? It depends on the day of the week what I think like can they can it be pulled off? I think it can be pulled off like they could do it given enough time given enough like you know next generation neuro implants whatever the hell they stick in us and monitor our thoughts like this is all like 10 20 years away

probably. Yeah. I I think you know well blame it on Elon Musk but this is this is just happening. Yeah. Just Just to add just to add something to I think that even bolsters what you're saying further is that I always used to say if there ever is a matrix pod Allah the movie the matrix we will not need all powerful archons to force us in at gunpoint. we will go in like we cuz we because we'll we'll either go in willingly or to your point if we're interacting with something orders of magnitude more intelligent

than we are like let's just say they're like us with Super high IQ's let alone maybe they have they operate in like the 4D like they have time manipulation or something even if they're just like us but a lot smarter they can they don't have to do violence they can easily just manipulate us and like p push our buttons and desires to make us do it's the easiest thing in the world. Yeah. There one of my favorite writers. I haven't read him in a while, but I love him. Baltazar Gratzion. He was a Jesuit from

a 16th Century. He he was like Machaveli. He knew all the kings, you know, all the powerful people. He was very smart. And his whole philosophy of life was like how to be a good person without getting screwed. So he was he was wise. And one one thing Grazion said was um if you every every person he said there's a key to the soul of everyone. Everyone's got a weakness. Yeah. And what you need to do is you have to know what the key is. Well, I would say a big key for all of Us

is pleasure. So, I could easily imagine uh algorithms coming up, virtual reality, augmented reality that become totally immersive that just like here's your own little Disneyland. Go live in that. Uh we'll give you a little bit of a UBI. you can live on this and just you can live in your virtual world like um the book and movie Ready Player One which was a great book. I'm friends with the author of that book Ernie Ernest Klein very smart man. Um but that I think is a really true dystopian that might be one of the best

of the dystopian futures even more than the Matrix because in Ready Player One the world the real world totally sucks. Everyone was like, I hate this world. But you go into the virtual world and that's where all the fun is and that's what people live for. They they spend all their money in the virtual world. And I I could see that. Absolutely. Yeah. And if you just look at, you know, look at the raw data of the amount of time people spend in the digital world, the amount of attention, the amount of resources, the amount

of money going into the digital world and digital pursuits. Now, now look, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, it's basically non-existent. So, how far, you know, I think it's a bit of a fallacy to think that that's just going to go until we've completely merged because it seems Like with any novel technology, you know, it's like the TV doesn't destroy radio. It just makes it so much less relevant. So, I feel like things of that degree will continue. But I also think it will foundationally make us reconsider what we are, what's important,

what what we're doing in reality. Um, and what that even looks like, I think, is impossible to guess because it's sort of like watching old sci-fi where they couldn't have Predicted the internet, right? It's just like, well, exactly. They they they just like in Bladeunner there's no internet, right? It's just not part of their dystopian future. totally we can't even imagine like what what we we we can't imagine what we can't imagine and and I think that will always make it one one thing I I I like to believe is that I mean I don't

I'm not a to I don't want to be totally dystopian here. Yeah. Uh I think I mean I I do have a lot of Dystopian tendencies. It's true. Like I think we're going to some bad places but also I think it's there's probably a certain inevitability about it. uh and that you know look future people will they will find a way to adapt to it and and I think there'll also be some deep thinkers uh in the future undoubtedly there will be there will be those who are um somehow they're liberated from whatever cultural shackles

that are uh seeking to Be imposed on them and and there will be freeth thinkers and they'll probably have a lot of tools uh at their disposal to to go kind of deep. So there could be some really, you know, very positive developments that come out in the future. But I I think in terms of like where will where will our society be in the next century or two, I would say there will be at some point a kind of open acknowledgement of other intelligences that are here. And Eventually I think there will be an

um there'll be some new form of society that very well may work for the people of the future. It'll work very differently than what what I would think or what you might think is ideal. But um you know I just keep telling myself human beings have lived in all kinds of social organizations over a long period of time and we one of our secret Abilities is we we are quite adaptable and I think we'll find a way I think we'll find a way to to make it and uh people in the future will you know

some of them may look back on human culture of the early 21st century and they they may find this conversation and they'll be like, yeah, you know, uh, it wasn't all bad, guys. You know, we we we're managing just fine. Yeah, they might think that. Yeah, I think I think that's a fabulous note to end it on. And And I I have no trouble personally like coming up with a more uh proninoic, you know, history bends toward justice type of argument. And and I really think, you know, if there are these super advanced beings, it's

hard to see how, you know, and it's sort of like the Hegel's argument, right, of like you can look throughout history and see how we're we're slowly getting closer and closer and closer to justice, even though I think that there are Strong counterarguments to that. Like it's true when you look historically, it's I think it is true. We we we tend to focus on the injustices in our world and there are many but my god you go back a couple of centuries or thousands of years and it was the brutality and the injustice was off

the charts by standards today was off the charts. Yeah. So so I want to believe whether it's a higher intelligence that's not physical or is physical or both that They've probably learned a lot of the same lessons we're trying to learn. And yeah, I think I think definitely. And and if they you know, it's like the classic argument of like, well, if they were if they really wanted to destroy us or or corrupt us or whatever, they could have easily done it um so many times. So, yeah, I'm I'm hopeful. And I was going to

say when you said in the next century or two, I think it'll be an open secret. I hope it part of me hopes it's Sooner than that, but then part of me is like, be careful what you wish for, man. Because once that Pandora's box is open, it's going to be who knows. You know, the one thing I I'm disappointed is that we didn't get into Young. So, we'll have to do that the next time. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Let's absolutely do that. I'm such a fan of him, and it took me such a long time

to really get on board with Young. I didn't I didn't uh fully appreciate him until maybe the last 10 Years, but uh he he was really unique. He he was one of the only people only major intellectuals of like the first half of the 20th century who was not fully on board with the whole progress mantra and he saw a lot of problems with it and this is the thing that I really really respect about Carl Gustafung he he recognized that there were certain foundational things about being a human being that you don't want to

just run away from them. We're not just ultra Plastic that can be molded in any way. There were certain core things about us and that was a very unpopular idea and it remains an unpopular idea but it was very much so in the context of progressivism of the 20th century which really wanted nothing to do with young. Yeah, definitely. And then when you you you know you add that that layer that didn't come out until so many years after he died in that the red book which is behind me here. Oh my god. like you

See this level of visionary genius that he was essentially suppressing for a lot of his life that he just kept locked away and then he started being much more clear in his interests and dispositions toward the end of his life. But it really didn't all come to light until much much later and his you know people like Mary Louise von France and other people who were close to him that really knew him um really shined a light on on how deep he went with a lot of these. This gives me something to look forward to

because I have not read that, but I I look forward to um to going in that way. Yeah, let's do it. Let's definitely do it. Well, this has been an absolute pleasure. Um and I could I could talk to you all day, but I'll let you get back to to all the things. I'm sure writing your your uh incredible tome about UF USOs that is this three volume uh Yeah. Yeah. life's work that I can't wait to dive into. Uh it's one of the most fun Projects I've ever done. And yeah, so I published the

first volume. It's coming out in three volumes. They're all the cases are done. It's uh close to 700 US. So submerged objects, water-based UFOs. And um I'm volume one's out. The audio book, by the way, for volume one is about to come out this week. Finally, it's all done. I've submitted it to Amazon, so it it will be available. But then the second volume, I'm w I'm trying to wrap that up. I've got the chapters All broken down. and then the third volume. All of those come out this year. Amazing. Well, thank you for what

you do, man. You've been you've been such a good agent in this space for for so long and I'm so grateful there are people like you out there. Um I'm looking forward to seeing you at contact in the desert, too. Yeah. I love what I do. So, I I I mean, I love what I do, so it's it's a lot of fun for me. But thank you. And yes, we'll be a contact in the Desert tracing. I will be there. You will be there. Um and uh she in fact she's doing a talk calling uh

called exploring the psionics in you. So Tracy, she's really all over this subject and she's got a lot to say about it and I'll have a few lectures that I'm giving as well. Can't wait. It'll be it'll be fun. So that's next uh yeah and in about a month a month from now in um in the California desert