Ellie Roozdar - Buddha at the Gas Pump Interview

[Music] Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Eli Ruzdar. Eli lives on Long Island but was originally from Iran where I spent three interesting months back in the, I guess it was 1980s, leaving just a day or two before the Shah did. I was with a group of TM teachers who were trying to demonstrate that large groups of people meditating could actually create a peaceful influence on their surroundings and on the society. I don't know if we did or not but it was interesting meditating

all day and then going up on the roof of our building to watch the banks and liquor stores burn. Yes, yes, amazing, yes, yes. Wild times. We'd take walks out on the street and people would, you know, here we are, these white guys walking around and people would say, "Are you crazy? Get off the street. You're going to get yourself killed." We felt safe but I'm sure we were naive. Yeah, yeah. So it was interesting. Yeah. Yeah, so thanks Eli. I've been listening to several hours of your interviews and talks over the last week and

enjoyed those. Those listening to this interview will get a chance to catch up on what I heard. But one thing I didn't hear too much in all that and didn't even see on your website, although I looked through it, was an account of how you kind of got to where you are in terms of your spiritual orientation to things. So, tell us that story. It's a long, long story. That's ok, we have time. First of all, I just want to thank you for having me here. Oh, you're welcome. The reason I accepted this interview is

because this path was so long and hard, was so difficult, and I didn't have any teacher, no teacher, no guru, no one to help. So, that's why I just want to share this story with the people. I'm sure there are so many people out there who are listening right now, and are in the same exact boat. But the message is, it's a light at the end of the tunnel. And it's not an oncoming train. No, it's not. There is an end into this path. So, if I want to start from the beginning, Rick, I was

born in a very middle class family in Iran, as you mentioned. I have been born and raised there till age 23. When I was a child, this is around age 5 or 6, when I was alone in the room, by myself, especially when I was all by myself, just playing or doing whatever I was doing, all of a sudden, I see myself as this vision. It's just vision, it's not a thing. It's just looking at this body, especially in the hands, I was looking at my hands, I was absolutely not associated whatsoever to this body.

And I was so petrified. I was just looking, And the only question I would ask is, in Persian, "Mankia", who am I? It was scary, because I was not getting any answer, and all I was feeling here is empty. There is nothing in here, nothing whatsoever, but it's looking at the body, this body does not feel at all belong to me. I am just looking at it, but I am absolutely not associated with that. This vision was so profound, it's just looking, it's an invisible vision, I could call it, invisible. And I would be so

sweating, all my face was so scared, I would run out of the room, I would go to a place that there are people there, and then when there are people there, then I feel a little bit safe, then I feel back, somehow it's like I am going back again. I could not share this with anyone, I knew this was not norm, I knew it, something from inside I knew it, this is not norm. Did it happen over and over again? Absolutely, anytime I was quiet by myself, the vision was coming out, I was not identifying

with the body, this was not me. Did you kind of fight it, because you didn't like it? No, I was scared. If it scared you so much, wouldn't you try to stop it from happening? No, well, the stopping was getting up and leave, going out, but then this "Who am I?" was there, because I didn't get an answer there, I felt this emptiness, there is nothing here, and that "Who am I?" that was the question, just was there, I know it was in the back burner, always. So, as I was growing up, till age 10

and 11, this was on and off there, until finally, I think this eye, this vision closed up, and this body was totally accepted, somehow, it just, ok, I am this body, but I knew something is not right in here, you know what I am saying, I knew, and so this was my question, as I was growing up, like everybody else, I am going to bring a metaphor to show you how I felt, it felt like, imagine you are a king, you are a king of this whole entire continent, and all of a sudden, you wake

up, and they dress you as a beggar, and they give you this begging bowl, and to go into this world and try to become that, so that was the feeling, I knew this was not me, I just knew it, it doesn't feel comfortable, But it feels like this was given, I cannot do anything about it, I have to accept this, so I accepted it, but I knew this was not it, so I took the begging bowl, and I went around the world, and I tried to become, just become, and become everything, become a good daughter

for the family, become educated, a good student, I happened to be a very good high achiever, very good student, become a good student, and then finally be accepted in university, which is in Iran, is very difficult, for every 100,000 people who apply for college, only 10% would be accepted, and I achieved that, went to college in Iran, got my bachelor's degree, and then for continual education, I decided to come to United States, in 1979, the day that Shah left Iran, we left Iran also, the next day. We might have been on the same flight almost,

I think I left about 2 days before that. But that's my time, so I came to United States, for again, for continual education, again to become, I was just becoming, so then in here I met my husband, I got married, he is Iranian, as you saw him today, and then I said, "Oh, if I found..." and then always there is something missing in here, it is like a huge hole, Huge, and no matter how much I was becoming, this hole was getting bigger, not smaller, it was just getting bigger. Was it like a constant awareness

of that, or just would come up in your quiet moments? Pretty much all the time, I was not at ease, I was not comfortable in this outfit, I was not, this was not comfortable. So, and then I said, "Ok, maybe if I find the love of my life". Love is the answer, we know that love is the answer. So, this man, I met him, I fell in love, I thought at the time, this was love, this was really love, a person to a person. So, we got married, that was not it, having the children, same

thing, everybody else is going, I don't want to take a lot of time on that, but it was not it, having two beautiful children, my daughter is now grown up, my son is now in college, something didn't fit. After my master's degree, I went and I started teaching in a Catholic school as a high school teacher in math, mathematics. I was very good in that, I am good in transferring the knowledge to the students, I was good, I loved that, that was my passion, in the class I was so myself, I feel so great, but

again, the thing that was missing is always here, and until at 1995, this body got very very sick, I got breast cancer, and I have to deal with that, That was one of the turning points, that something hit here, I had to take care of that, which I did, I went through the whole entire thing, the surgery and everything, and I put that behind myself, but that was something that made me again, not only to take care of the body now, I started watching the body, taking care of the body a little bit more, more

exercise, better eating, all that, but then going now curve back in, that's the time that started. About two years after, I became a volunteer of American Cancer Society, and ever since I am helping all those people in Long Island, who had breast cancer, that was the time of my life, dealing, interacting with people, going to their homes, giving them hope, showing them that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, this is a cancer survivor, this body, so it was just fun to do that, as a side. I thought that's it, serving people,

it would be something that maybe I need to again fill that gap, that hole. That was good, but that was not it, that was not it. Becoming is not it, I knew this becoming is not it, this is not a path of becoming. So, after a while, after the cancer, I decided to change my career, because I was commuting a long, long distance, and I said, so maybe that is something close, and that was... The dog is saying it's time for breakfast. Ok, so you want to go take care of it? No, no, my wife

will take care of it, we can keep going. People who listen to these shows are well aware of our dogs and cats. I love them, I love them so dearly. So, after all this, I said, this is something missing. When I changed my career, I was in information technology for a few years, again, I became a manager, very good at what I was doing, dealing with the people, interacting, and then at the point, I said, ok, I heard about energy and healing and Reiki. So, I found someone, some Reiki master in Long Island, and she

gave me attunement, so I learned Reiki level 2, so she showed me how to do it with hands and all that. One day, I said, ok, now that I learned this, she showed me you can give energy from the distance, or to the picture of somebody, or all that, so here I am, I said, let me just give energy to my sister. So, I was sitting in my living room, and I was holding my hands up like that on her picture, and all of a sudden, my hands started bouncing up and down, and speed was

phenomenal, out of control, It was like, I can tell you, it was so fast that I felt that my shoulders now, is going to just pull out. So, I take my hands off the picture, so I just hold it like this, and I just waited, and then I said, ok, I am going to try again, so I put my hands back, now this time around, it was going this way, like this. For those listening on the audio, she is going back and forth, rather than up and down. Right, like this, but the speed, I cannot

describe that, this was so much that it was so out of control, it was so painful, it was like, my hands are falling off, so I take my hands off, and all of a sudden, I felt this energy was flowing from the bottom of my belly, circling around, just like this, and coming up, and up, and going to my head, and my shoulders, it feels like you are in a roller coaster, that's how it was moving, and then this chest, my chest was just expanded so much, and then it was just like moving and going

on, and on, and on, and as I was looking at my hands, all of a sudden my hands became like this, I felt this like a football, I mean, soccer ball, and this energy was moving in between my hands. When you say like this, for the benefit of those just listening to the audio, she is holding her hands As though she is holding a soccer ball in her hands. Exactly, like this, and it was going in between my hands, so powerful, it was like a ball moving, and I was looking at it, I don't know

what to do with this ball, I just put it in my head, I go like this. Put the ball in your head. Yes, and I let go, and this was going on, and on, and on, I don't know how long, until it quiet down, and all of a sudden, as it quiet down, I raise my hand, and I noticed that this left hand, all of a sudden, is moving, as I am going towards any chakra, any chakra in my body, if I hold my hand, it starts vibrating. Ok, very powerful. So, I sat down, I

don't know how long was it, so I just didn't know what happened to me, I really never had any experience like this. So, this Reiki master told me that you can give energy to the loved ones, to the people who are diseased, or anybody. So, there are two people were in my mind, so powerfully, so strongly, that I want to give energy. One was Mother Teresa, so here I am, I raise my hands, and with the distance I start giving her energy, and these two hands were going off the wall, They were going, like moving,

and shaking, and moving, and throughout this whole energy, it was like that, and then it slow down, it quiet down, and that was it. And the next one, I said, the person that I always, this is the love of my heart, was Jesus. I said, and I am not even Christian, but Jesus has a very special place in my heart, because of his messages. So, I start giving energy to Jesus, again same thing, again hands were moving out, and I said, you know what, I have to call my husband, I have to show him what

is going on with me. So, I called, he was downstairs in his office, he came up, he sat down, I said, look, I want to give energy to your brother, his brother was diseased, very tragically diseased, back in Iran. He said, ok, so as I was mentioning his name, and I was giving energy, my hands were acting like that again, and I was watching, and he was watching, we have no idea what was going on. So, I remember, when this energy was ended, he just looked at me, he didn't say one word, he just walked

away. I think he was very scared. What did he say later on? Well, you want to hear that? Sure. Are you ready? Yeah, I am ready. Why can't you be like other people? Ah, he wants you to be normal, yeah. I said, what do you mean by that? He says, normal, like your friends, does anybody of your friends do anything like that? I said, I have no answer, I don't know what to say. I called the Reiki master, I said, look, I don't know what you did to me, is this attunement you gave me or

something, I had this kind of experience. She says, oh my goodness, that is Kundalini awakening. I said, I have no idea what you mean by that. She says, ok, that is very powerful, and what I want you to do is, you give me energy, because I have this chronic pain in my back, that I want you to give energy. So, he came to my home, and she lay down, and I said, look, somehow I know I don't have to touch you, I just do it from the distance. She says, I don't know where you got

this idea, whatever that is, go ahead, do it. So, I gave energy to her from a distance, and she felt it very strongly. She says, the pain is gone, the pain is completely gone, she didn't feel anything at all. She says, this is fantastic, this Kundalini opens up, has a lot to do with all this energy, so you can do a lot with this energy and healing, so come and join us and all that stuff. So, I said, ok, so I was reflecting upon that, I knew a woman, an Iranian woman, she is in California,

she was into also energy, she wrote a lot of books about that. I contacted her, I said, look, something like this happened, I explained to her all that. She mentioned, she says, ok, I want you to close your eyes, and scan my body, and tell me which part of my body has problem. I said, I have no idea what you are saying. She says, just follow what I just said, close your eyes, picture my body, scan me from the head to toe, tell me which part is problem. I said, ok, I just followed, I closed

my eyes, and I am scanning her body, I am coming down, and as I am reaching to her throat, I feel my energy, my hands shake, start different kind of vibration, feel different kind of thing. So, I go down, all of a sudden, in her stomach, I felt something, and then all the way down to her legs. So, she says, so what did you find? I said, something in her throat, and something in her stomach. She says, absolutely, it is right. They found a tumor in my throat, and she has this problem with thyroid, and

she said, last night, me and my husband, we went out to dinner, I don't know what we ate, we both have problems with our stomach. Give me energy to my stomach. So, I start giving energy to her stomach. She says, can I ask you a favor? I said, yes. She says, can you give energy to my husband, because he is sick also. So, he comes in, and I am giving energy to him, and that is how it started. She said, you can do this, now you can scan people from this distance, and all that. After

Kundalini, the only difference in me was not just the hand, my left arm was like that, very sensitive, and my ears became very sensitive, very sharp, with the noises and all. That's all, nothing else, I never felt anything else changed, feeling wise. Then I start with my friends and people who know me, I start giving energy from the distance, and also scanning people, same thing. I would scan people, I said, I feel something in your stomach, in your lower stomach, and they said, yes, I had some problem with my intestinal, and I had surgery and

all that. You can feel the different vibration, even from the distance, you can tell. So, this was going on and on, and I was giving energy from distance for a long time, but I noticed that whenever I give energy to 2 or 3 people in a row, somehow I feel such pain and tiredness, it feels like you have 2 bricks all of a sudden on my chest. It was draining you or something? Very much so, very much. It should not supposed to be like that, you are supposed to be channeling this energy, not giving your

own energy. So, I was talking to my cousin, back in Europe, she said, he knows a guru, that is a monk, that he is very familiar with his energies and stuff, so he can help you on this. And accidentally he was coming to New York City, so I went to visit him, this monk in the city. Anyone I would have heard of? I don't want to mention, he is not that famous, I don't know if he wants his name to be revealed, but he was a chiropractor, doctor, which was also a monk. So, as soon

as they opened the door, I went to him, he was sitting there with this orange robe, you know the robes that they have. He looked at me and I said to him, I said, I think I have this Kundalini problem, whatever that was. He looked at me, he smiled, he said, I can see that. He said, the energy, the way it is supposed to come up, it has to go straight up, and flow properly, somehow because of the way my spine is, this energy trapped in the middle, and the color changes, the color instead of

being just a light, like a yellowish white, it was like an orangeish, orange-red, that's the color he was seeing. So, is that why you were feeling drained when you did the healing work, because your Kundalini was blocked? Something was blocked, it was not functioning, so he put me on the floor, and he cracked my back, two ways, and the neck also, it was cracked, I could hear the noise. He was not even touching me, he put a cloth, something was on my back, so he doesn't touch me directly, so he just did that. But he

was physically touching you, through a cloth? Yes, through a cloth, and then he said, that's it, now this energy is flowing, I see the color, so I don't feel it, I didn't feel anything, so he said, the color is now white, like yellowish white. So, but he said something beautiful to me that day, he said, my sister, this Kundalini awakening is a blessing for you, do not give energy to people, because I have seen people get into this, and that pump their self of self and ego, so strongly, and they lose themselves in this path,

although they do service, but they are lost. They feel like they are something special. Exactly, so, if I were you, he said, I go within, and I try to find who am I, and I said, well, yes, that was always my question, so I came home, Rick, that was that, and the job that I have, this was a management of a company, I said, you know what, I have it, I just have to know who am I, I put this in a back burner for long time, it is long enough, so that's it, I called

them up, I told them I am quitting my job, I came back home, and I went back to this naturally, I think this body felt to go back to the cocoon, and the meditation started, strong, powerful meditation. This was not any specific kind of meditation, I didn't follow any specific guru or teacher. One thing I heard that I know it helped me, that is from very famous Indian guru, again, I don't want to mention the name, because I am not following this person, all I heard was just methodology of meditation, with open eyes and with

closed eyes. All he was mentioning is paying attention to this observer, to this watcher, so when I did that, I was just paying attention to the observer, to this awareness who is here, but at the time I didn't know who was this awareness, all I knew it was I have to pay attention to the awareness, that's all. So, I went back to this cocoon, and days after days, Rick, I was in meditation for hours, I mean, sitting down was not cutting for me, because it was so painful, I couldn't sit for a long time. Because

of the kundalini it was painful? No, it was so uncomfortable, because the duration of this meditation was so long, it was not 20 minutes, half an hour, this was like 3 hours meditation, just sitting as a lotus position, it was very uncomfortable, my back, so I would lay down, like a dead body on the floor, or in bed, no pillow, straight. So, after 3 or 4 hours, my whole body was like dead body, then I would come out of the meditation, my arms were just, oh my God, it was so painful, because I was holding

it like this for longest time, it was all painful. You were trying to maintain a still position? Absolutely, this stillness had to be there, for some reason I knew that this was it. Stillness, awareness. Now, this was the most important thing in this path for me, because as I was meditating, it was healing, meditation for me was healer, all those memories was coming, all those emotions were coming up, but it was coming up, it feels like coming up to me, to the presence of me, to the presence of I am, and it would come and

slowly, all these stories of me As a separate sense of self, that sense of separate me, with the story was coming up and was dissolving. And the emotions, sometimes there is a memory, something was happening, and I would just be watching it, allowing this to happen, and it happened, and it just cleaned up, I don't know how to describe, it was like purifying, it was so healing, and the wisdom is amazing, the knowing, and I was so acquainted with this nothingness, with this emptiness, I knew this is not emptiness, this is absolutely fullness. So, unlike

when you were a little girl, and you would have that experience and be fearful, now you are sort of welcoming that experience and kind of befriending it, and not being fearful anymore. True, but that was the vision, here was not the vision, this was just a witness, this was not just like that, I explained that to you, because that vision later on opened up, but this was not that, this was just a presence, which is healing, the presence is healing, is here. So, as I was going through this meditation, and my husband was petrified, because

he saw me on the floor sometimes, like flat dead, And he would come up and he would hold me, and he would just try to wake me up, honestly, he thought that something, he was very concerned about this. And you wouldn't respond? No. Didn't you explain to him what you were doing? I would say, "Go away, I am fine", I would just make sure that he just wanted to make sure that I am OK. But you weren't being a normal housewife, that's for sure. No, not at all. So, Rick, I found a friend from a

distance, she lives in Canada, and she became my friend, and she was also doing the same thing, meditation and all that. One day I went to the beach, I had a very nice walk in the beach, I sat in the beach, I meditated in the beach, no problem. I was so in peace, I came home, I was sitting in the couch, something told me that I have to now go meditate, and again I feel that energy again, similar, very similar was coming up, I don't know what it was, So I said, "OK, I am going

to go lay down". I went upstairs in bed, lay down, and I closed my eyes into meditation. After like maybe few minutes, all of a sudden this wave of energy again was coming from the bottom, the belly part of me was like a wave this time, it was not like a circle or like that, it was a wave, and was coming up to my chest, all the way to my head, holding up, holding my breath, no breath, coming and going, nothing whatsoever, taking over the whole entire body, the head, and this no breath was going

on for maybe 10 to 15 seconds, and then the wave go back, and this was going up and down, and up and down for an hour, and the joy and ecstasy, it is just amazing. All of my, every cell of the body, not just my belly and my heart, not just that, I am talking about every cell in my finger nails, fingers, every cell in here was feeling that joy. Even in my mouth I was feeling, all of my gums, every cell of the gum is feeling that joy. That's how it was. Amazing, and it

just the most powerful, satisfying, joyful thing ever happened. And I was in it, I was not a watcher, I was not aware being, no, that is gone, this love is so powerful, it would take over everything, there is no you, There is nothing going on. So, as it finished, I said, "Oh my God, who can I share this one now?" I called a friend in Canada, she says, "Yes", she has the exact same experience, and she described that to me, it is not that, "Ok, I know it", she gave me the description, how it was,

how it started, how it is, so we know something was going on, so I was so glad that I was not the only one. So, I went to do some research to find out what is this thing in meditation, because meditation to me was always a quiet place, silence, nothing like this. So, I went to internet, the only thing I found, honestly, was this Indian lady in India, who had this thing going on in her, and people were celebrating around her, and they said that the divine is touching her, and I saw her, same exact

thing was going on with her, the energy was coming, going to her head, and she was intoxicated, and it goes down, people were dancing around her, giving her something to drink, and they said, "This is the divine", that's what I saw, nothing else. I said, "Ok, this is it", and I didn't share this with my husband, because if I do, I knew, again, another thing is going to happen, so forget it. This thing was so powerful, Rick, for about 2.5 years, I was going there, and I had this experience, this is just amazing. So, like

every day for 2.5 years you would lie down like this? No, this was very powerful, you couldn't do this every day. You can do this only maybe once a week, if you can, because the energy of it is so powerful, you feel like you are going to explode. But the times when you would do it, you would do it when you felt the urge to do it coming on, right? Yes, coming on. Almost like you didn't really have a choice, you had, "I got to go do it". Yes, that's how it was, like something is

coming on, I have to go lay down. So, this was, again, I was falling in love with this, this is my love affair now, there is this "me", "Eli", and this thing, whatever this thing is, the divine, this is how it was, "me" and the divine are going and this merge, this is what's happening. Let me just interject a question here, as this was happening, not during the actual lying down, but throughout your 24 hours daily routine, was your normal life disrupted by the changes that were taking place? I mean you had normal sort of

relations with your kids and your husband and your friends and your shopping and all that stuff was ordinary? Yes, I tried to pretend that image, that facade, that role, never changed. I tried not to reveal that, and it is very easy not to, you can just do it, this is your little secret, honestly, the only person who knew that was my friend in Canada. So, you didn't discuss this stuff with your husband, you didn't tell him what you were going through? No, he would not understand that, but this love, Rick, is not like a romantic

love, it is not like that, this is it, I thought this is the ultimate, you can't have anything above that, I mean the joy of this is just overwhelming, and you get so hooked, this is like my love affair, honestly, that was it. So, you thought you were just going to do this all your life? All my life, I arrived, I thought that's it, this is it, there is Ellie, who had this love affair, and this is me, whenever I feel like going, but then when the experience was ending, I felt that sense of separation,

and this love affair gets so intense, Rick, that no matter, even if you stay there, sit there for 24 hours, you still feel separated, and this separation is not good, was not satisfying for me, I cannot continue this, I cannot be separated from this, so I don't know what is going on with me, but this something is not right, I cannot be separated from this, and I felt separated, and that was giving me pain, again. I want to be 24 hours here, but I couldn't be here, I wish I was in Himalayas by myself, but

I couldn't do it, I had a husband, I have a family, so again, this was like, then there was this feeling of bewilderness, it's like something, everything is, when I was looking at everything, everything is a miracle, all of a sudden, this butterfly, oh my God, it's like the first time I saw a butterfly, ever in my life, I was sitting in my backyard, again sitting and watching, this grasshopper came, I was looking, oh my God, look at these legs, look at this face, look at that, that kind of a thing, bewilderness. So I said,

you know, I really have to know what is going on. So something came to me, that there was this Sufi mystic in Iran, his name is Atar, Atar is very old mystic, even prior to Rumi, he came up with this infrastructure in this path, path of self-realization, that he says, he divided it in about 7 steps or 7 stages, that when I read that, and I saw those 7 stages, I said, that's it, this should be in front of me, as a model, because I don't have anything else in front of me, and I am

going to use that as a model. So this is how he said that, and I knew that I was in the path, he said, step 1 is the burning desire, in this path you have to have this passionate desire to know the truth, that has to be there, as a number 1, and he emphasized that so much on that. Stage 2 is love, he said love, and I knew that this is the love he is talking about, that you feel, that's the love, that's the love affair he is talking about. Stage 3 he says, some

sort of recognition after love, recognition stage. Recognition of what? Do you want to elaborate on that? Of the truth, recognition, I will tell you that, because when I was having this experience, I was recognizing there is something esoteric in here, there is something going on, I don't know what it is, but it is something, it is something different, it is not normal thing that people are going through, there is something in here, I don't want to call it anything, but there is something in here. So, that was the recognition he is talking about, it is

not enlightenment really, it is not awakening yet. Then he is talking about bewilderment, which I was there. Bewilderment, I think you mean. Bewilderment, yes, that means anything is miracle, when you look at anything and everything, but also in this state you are confused, you don't know who you are yet, you know there is something going on, but you still are so confused, that is a very difficult state, I was there for a while, And I experienced that. After this, he said, unity consciousness, that's the state 5, unity consciousness, state 6 is die in God, dying

in God. And unity consciousness means? I would elaborate in a minute, unity means just the vision change, the vision that I had at age 6, the vision change, which I am going to talk about that in a minute, that is unity consciousness. Then he says, die in love, state 6, state 7, resurrected as God. Oh my goodness, I just said, this is it, I am going to put that in front of me, and just looking at it, and see where I am, so I am going and living my life, and bewilderment is there for a

long time, and I am going to my life, again meditation is still going on, because I was not aware who I was, what's going on. And even there is a better word than bewilderment, because bewilderment usually means confusion, but I think you mean like, just fascination with the mystery, with the sort of almost being in awe Of the divine intelligence that you see displayed in things. Yes, absolutely, but it was confusing though, it was not clear, it was blurry, it was so blurry, and I knew that was not the place I wanted to be, that

was a very uncomfortable place to be. I am telling you Rick, you don't want to be here, it is so unclear. So, in one experience, again I just had to meditate, go through this love affair, in one experience that I have, this was years ago, I don't even know what year was it, 2004 I think it was. As I was having this experience, there was this me, as Ellie, going and having this love affair. This is how it happens, I noticed that, the experiencer and the experience, they are not two, this is one. And in

this experience, that sense of separate self, all of a sudden, like this, just collapsed. And then at the end of the love affair, all it was left was this awareness, this existence. And this existence, what happened was all of a sudden, it feels like something cracked open, And it was so crystal clear here, so here. So, when the experience was over, everything dropped, everything collapsed, and the only thing was left was this. And immediately, I look at it, I felt, ok, this is me, I am not apart from this, this is familiar, this is not

something new, it was there, it was like from the background, it came all of a sudden to this forefront, very strongly, very powerfully, from the core of the being, just like this, it came up. And here, for the first time, I felt, there is only one thing in here, all there is, is this. There is nothing but this, and that's end of that in this body, in this body, all there is, is this. This experience was profound, because I didn't kept the experience anymore, because I didn't chase the experience anymore, the experience, it feels like

you come out of this shell, you drop the shell. The shell is not important for me anymore, because I got what I wanted out of this. So, what I am trying to say is that, the experience in the meditation, that is not important, that is not something that you have to focus on. The focus is that the truth of the being, Who is aware of the experience, all of a sudden reveals itself in the midst of the experience. And the experience wipes away, and you don't even need to remember the experience, it just throws it

out. But this is the true gem, this is it, it is. The truth of the being. I am. It feels like, I am. So, this stayed there, and when the experience is over, here I am, I am. So, this goes on a few days, but that is the unity consciousness he is talking about, the feeling of oneness within. But it wasn't oneness without, there was still a within and without. So, this still was this me, still, I was seeing myself as a separate body, still referencing this body as me, and then the rest of the

world as separate, it was like this. Although in here there is no person. So, the oneness within doesn't refer to your body, does it? It refers to something more fundamental than that. That's true, but it is still some sort of referencing. Some sort of association with the body? Association was there, yes. Although there is this oneness very strong, it came up, it was right here, Right now, but still there is this me-ness and this other-ness. So, there is this sense that I, here, am living this oneness, and that is separate from everything else. Exactly, that

was there. So, now, it was just going on and on. Now, this time around when I was meditating, it was not chasing that experience anymore. That was gone. Even before that, when you were meditating, it didn't sound like you were chasing anything, it sounded like you were just hanging on for the dear life and going along for the ride, and it was all happening automatically. True, but I was enjoying it, I was loving it, I was there, here it comes, but now, this was gone, that thing was gone, that was not needed anymore, somehow. It

feels like you graduate from that, outgrow from that. That experience does not need to reveal anything for me anymore. It seems like it peels off, it is like something peels off. But this, I was just meditating on myself, as I am-ness, this is just amazing, I am-ness, I found who I am, I found myself, but it wasn't complete, I don't know how to explain it, it wasn't complete, you can tell it is not complete, this is not complete. Well, because all of this is not that. That's exactly, there is this duality, that vision was still

duality, I see boundaries, I see still boundaries in there, so at the moment I didn't know that was duality, I knew that something doesn't still fit right. A lot of times people, I think, refer to what you are describing as non-dual or as unity, but in fact it is actually a state of duality. Right, exactly, and here I am also, I am not following any particular guru, any books, nothing, just mostly experiential, this body is going through all this natural unfolding. I was going to ask you that, I don't mean to interrupt your flow, but

you were saying, all this stuff has been going on with you for years, you were not inclined to be reading all kinds of books to figure out what was happening? I was reading, but there was no answer in there. You didn't really find them satisfying? No, absolutely not, they are talking about this and that, I want somebody to explain to me what is going on with me, what stage am I? And I spoke to someone who wrote so many books about spirituality, he is Iranian guy, I spoke to him and I explained about my experiences,

he says, "Look, I honestly don't know what you are talking about, but these things that you are saying, there are some names for it, these stages and also the experience that you have, there are names for it, this is this, but all I am telling you, this is a divine touch, that is the divine is working on himself in this body. So, that was going on for a while, until Rick, in one, I go for a walk a lot, I mean fast walk, that is my real exercise. As I was walking one time in the

street, and this is a busy road I am passing, the cars are passing, here I am going, all of a sudden, there is this stillness that is totally silence, and all of a sudden is embracing everything, everything is in me, the trees I am looking, The cars are passing, and including the body is in me, but I am not it, I am just looking at it as a distance, and I also notice that I am not walking, the body is walking, that is for sure, I am not walking, and I am looking at the body

is walking in me, the trees are in me, the squirrel passed by, that squirrel has zero distance from me, everything is equidistance to me, as an eye, as a vision, the vision opened up again, opened up complete, that is panoramic vision. 360? Let me show you, it is not a 360, I am not seeing my back, what I am trying to say is no boundaries, it is things are in me, but I am not it, I am embracing them, but at the same time I am not it, I see them as an object, the body

became totally an object, that is it, all there is, is this vision, as a silence, as a subject, that is the first time in my life I felt love, that is the true love, that was the love, love is when there is no separation, there is no distance, distance disappeared, and then that lasts for a while, Rick, and then it again closed up, again I see the duality, Again the vision was come back duality, the next day, opened up, again closed up, opened up, closed, this lasts for a couple of months, until finally, stayed just

like that, opened, opened up. When it opened up that last time, was there something different about the opening, or was it like all the other ones and you expected it would go away, but it just didn't? It didn't go away, it didn't go, it just seems that it just got adjusted, like some eye wants to open up, but cannot get adjusted, I don't know even, this is a vision, I cannot say an eye, it is a vision, it is an invisible vision, I try to describe it sometimes, it is very hard, but that is what

it is, it is like not even a space, because the vision is watching this space, is aware of this space, it is not in a space, so it is a vision. And by vision I don't think you mean visual, like predominantly using this sense as opposed to any other sense, you are talking about something more fundamental than that, maybe cognition would be a better word, I don't know. It is a different vision, it is a different way of looking, perspective, which I know, there is this one message from Jesus, I remember it, that he was

saying from the childhood, the kingdom of God is within you, but within you not within this, that is not what he is talking about, he is talking about you are this, and the kingdom is in you, that is what he is talking about, now I know what he is saying, so that message just resonated, that is it, that is what he is talking about, the kingdom of God is within you, and also this message from Prophet Muhammad, the one who knows oneself, knows God, when you know who you are, you know God, that is for

sure, that was with me for a long time. Now, another message was always carried from Rumi, if you want me to say it even in Persian, beautiful, it says, "Anon ke talabkar khodaheed, khodaheed, beerun ze shoma nist, shomaeed, shomaeed" it says, "Those who are looking for God, you are God, it is not outside of you, you are it, you are it" he is emphasizing, you are it, so these three words, these three sentences, like a triangle was with me, One who knows himself, that is his awakening, if you know who you are, you know God,

the kingdom of God is within you, that is the vision, and you are God. So, this has to be experienced fully, fully resonate with you, to realize what Rumi is talking about. So, that was the opening of the vision, again the vision now sees unity, that duality vision is not there anymore. But, there was this me, still there is a mind in the background, trying to understand this, and trying to define this somehow, and another tricky part of it was, try to be one with it, try to be present enough to be one with this.

In other words, it wasn't so spontaneous, you had to sort of be trying something, or you thought you did, there is some little effort going on. Yes, so that is when the contemplation started in me. Is there a me, apart from this, that is living here, trying to be one with this? I am not going to give answers, is that true? But you were asking yourself that. I asked myself this, is that true? Or that is all there is? This is all there is. So, this me at the very end is trying to become this,

I mean trying to be aware of this, and also try to analyze that, maybe philosophize that, I don't know what was trying to do, but somehow this mind was not surrendered, it was awakening happened, I knew who I was, there is no doubt in my mind, that this was it, this was the truth, that is the only truth exist here, I know it, but this mind is keep trying to be in tune with this, or understand this, this was for a while. Almost as if the mind was trying to fit something within its grasp, that

is actually exceeds its grasp, but it is still trying to get a hold of something. This is nothing to get a hold of, this is how it is. But the mind was trying. This is nothingness, but everythingness, but mind cannot understand this. So, mind in one day, I remember, I just said, I just don't know. I know this mind came to the knees, I know how it was, it was just so surrendered, so humbled. I cannot tell you how much, I was in tears. Did it just happen spontaneously, all of a sudden? Yes, you know,

yes. Just kind of a letting go, that just happened. You know, this is it, because I know this is it, I don't know what this thing is, intellectually, but I just know it, I know it so much, this is the only real thing exist in here, it is the most powerful thing, the most being existing, shining being, what is, that is. So, the mind at this time, I felt, it is just like, you know, and you can tell, because this mind that it was constantly trying to become, to become even aware of the truth, That

is the tail end of the mind, you really have to watch it, who wants to be one with this? Who is that me, wants to be one with this? Is that me authentic? That me, you have to watch it, very carefully. So, because this awakening happened from within, very powerfully, from deep in, it is not something somebody can point out to that, to me. This was not coming from outside, this was so deep inside, came out very powerful here all the time, as the only king of this whole entire continent. So, when the king arises,

there is nothing else is left in here, there is nobody else in here, there is nobody here, other than this. So, who is this mind that is trying? So, that is the time that this mind just surrendered. And after that, Rick, there was absolutely nothing to try, nothing to become, nothing to understand, and also in peace, at ease, this mind is liberated, this mind is free, free from becoming at last. I was becoming all my life, Rick, even in the path of spirituality, I was becoming so kind and so loving, Let's have some unconditional love

for everybody, the mind was trying all of that, trying to be non-judgmental, these are the things that mind is trying to become, but you cannot be non-judgmental if you see yourself as a separate sense of self, because you automatically see yourself as duality, you see duality, when you see duality, the judgment is going to be there, so no matter how much you try, you get frustrated, that's why the mind in this path gets so frustrated, it thinks that I have to be good, I have to be non-judgmental, I have to be this and that, none

of that is true, because once you realize the truth, as a truth, every thought is more than welcome here, there is no such thing, this thought should not be there, I was policing, my mind was policing, this mind should not be there, that is good, this is bad. So, in other words, now you might have thoughts that might be considered judgmental, but that's ok, they just fit in. That's not you, you know that is not you, you know who you are. But you might still have an opinion about Ahmadinejad, for instance, or this, that or

the other thing, But all is well and wisely put, they just flow through. Absolutely, any mind, any idea is welcome, any emotion is welcome, you cannot say, ok, now this awakening happening, it should not be any kind of sadness in here, I should not be sad, that's not true, the sadness arises, but you know who you are, you are not going to be a separate sense of self, that doesn't have any identity, so that it grabs that sadness, as this is my sadness. So, the same thing with the body, the body can get sick, this

body is getting old, it is getting sick, if you know who you are, you tolerate any pain, any disease, any sickness that is going on in the body, very consciously, you will be very aware of this, everything. So, one way of saying it might be, there is nobody trying to run the show anymore, the show is just going on and you are just enjoying it as it goes. Absolutely, I am such a relaxed, no more this is good and bad, how I feel, am I feeling good, am I feeling bad? There is nothing to do

with feeling, what you are is completely beyond feeling, any feeling can come and go, But you know who you are, as long as you know your identity, that's the most important thing, you have to know who you are, and claim that, not claim it mentally, you know this is the only truth existing here, and you know that's what I am, and that's it, that's the end of this path, when there is no more becoming. So, in your experience is that, so you went through all these stages and unfoldments, and in some cases you thought, this

is the final thing, I am going to do this all my life, are you still going through stages of unfoldments or has it all come to rest? That is resting. And how does this correspond with those 7 stages? It says at the end, it talks about the "fana" that means you just fall, you die in God, death of the self, death of sense of separate self, which always there to the last minute, trying to be one with the truth, trying to be one with here, be present, that is completely surrendered, completely to the knees, Complete

surrender, and then once that happens, because you have to admit, that part of you has to say, there is nothing, I am nothing, that part has to admit that I am nothing, that nothingness has to happen first, in other words, drops in the ocean, but that drop has to become nothing first, and then once it becomes nothing, then it becomes everything, then the whole totality is you. You cannot become totality from the mental, all of a sudden to this consciousness, you cannot automatically say, I am consciousness, that is not how it works. That part of

you, which is the sense, the me that was here, that was a sense of me, that was never real, never ever real, if it was real, it could be here, the only thing is real was this, that we are feeling right now, right now, this monitor, the way this vision is, this monitor and this body, they both are in me, they are equal distance, that body that is called Rick and this body is Ellie, these are both objects, fully, all there is, is one subject, one alone, there is oneness alone by itself, this is the

reality of the whole thing, so you wake up with that, and in this, nothing really happens, and there is no sense of self, there is no individual is here, all there is, is this, because all there is, is this presence, We don't have any other timing, even if you are thinking about that, that thought, everything is happening right here in the presence, so the presence of being that is here, is the only truth that is. So, that is the bottom of that, because you know that this path ends, because when you know who you are.

That's it, now the part of the adjusting and settling, this is all again belong to the mind, this is a mental game, the reality was always here, this reality is not going to get deepening, any of that, the mind gets more and more surrender, and dives into the unknown, because this mind should say, this is how it happened, although I don't know this at all, but that's the only thing I know, that has to be so authentic, it cannot be borrowed from somebody, it has to come from the depth of your being, fully. Now, another

thing I want to share with you, it is very important, this knowing, this knowledge, cannot be transferred from one person to another. The reason why I am saying this, because I have been talking to so many people over the phone, or sometimes by email, and interacting, this was not successful, although I was a very good teacher in math, I can transfer knowledge, you cannot transfer this. This cannot be transferred. Now, I get a lot of emails, a lot of questions from people, that they go to the satsangs, and they sit and listen to all this,

this is all good, because I know the intention of that teacher, has to be very good, he has good intentions, they are pointing out to the truth, and you recognize that. Definitely, so I can bring anybody from the street, right now, I can go, "Sit down here, let me show you who you are", I would point out to the truth, and they would recognize that, that's obvious, because that's your nature, how could you not recognize yourself? That's you, the truth is you. So, they can do that, but that is not awakening, so you go home,

maybe for a few days, and you feel like... but then that sense of separate self is still there, it doesn't go away. So, this person, this type of people, they have to go through all this, because the mind has to go through all this, so that is the path. So, ultimately this mind would be ready to hear the truth, when it is said. If this mind is not ready to hear this, no matter how much you say, you are consciousness, you are awareness, you are God, you are Atman, it doesn't sink, because this mind is

not ready for that, to hear it. So, that's what is happening to these people. I get a lot of people like this, they are wasting their time, in other words, they are in the circle, they go to one class to another, one person to another, one book to another, they want to hear this, not to practice it. You see, in Rumi says, "Don't be in the circumference of the circle, you need to jump into the center". The wise person is to jump out into the center. How do you jump? By experiencing, when you close your

eyes and you go and check and see it for yourself, you need to see it for yourself. You cannot borrow this from somebody else, nobody can induce that to you. Rumi has a story, it is still time I like to share. Rick, Rumi says this, look at this, this is a metaphor of this. He says, if in a room that is so dark, imagine there is a room so dark, they put this huge elephant, and they put a whole bunch of people around that. It is pitch black, nobody can see a thing. Now they say,

"Find out what this thing is". The person who is up front, who is touching the trunk, he says, "This is the gutter". The person who is in the back, touching the leg, says, "This is the beam". The beam of the house. The person who is in the middle, touches the top, he says, "This is a bed". And they start fighting, they start all fighting, and they are so right, because where they are touching, it feels like right. But he says, listen to this, how beautiful he says, "In the hands of each individual, if there is

a candle that has been lit individually, then there would be no differences". He doesn't say that if they turn on the light from outside, everybody can see that. That's not what he says. He is not saying, if somebody knows in here, in the trunk part, he can say to other people who are standing in the back, who are not seeing this, the message. Because the person who is in the back, hearing this, either he has to accept it, just as an idea, or reject it, so he can't see it. So, he said, each individual has

to lit their own candle. It doesn't even say that this person who has a lit candle, has to go to other people and turn on their candles either. It doesn't say that. He may trigger that, he may say, "Oh my God, I saw this, oh my God, it's an elephant". And other people get excited about this, so that they can work on it, and whatever happens naturally, they can see it, they can lit their own candle. But you cannot possibly transfer the truth to somebody else. I know it for a fact, based on my experience,

and based on what Rumi says. So, you have to remember that. So, in other words, you have to live it, yourself. You have to live it for yourself, and that's why I don't have any classes. And the description of it does not suffice as the actual living of it. It's like hearing a description of some delicious meal, it's not like eating the meal. No, because people heard about this already, that's why I don't want to have classes about this. I know this path is very long and difficult. It's not so easy that you hear about

this, somebody induce that to you, and then you go home and try to be that. People calling me, they say, "Oh, some teacher told me, try to be a watcher". Just to be a watcher, I tried to be a watcher for a long time, it was ok, I was in peace, but then I was frustrated. I had to drop it, that was too much effort. It's manipulative. Yes, because that watcher is a duality watcher already. The watcher that you are at this time, you see me as this, separate, and that Rick is totally separate. You

and me are two different people, so what kind of watching I am practicing here? I am practicing duality, and that reinforces that sense of me. So, that watching is not the watching that we are talking about. I think the watching you are talking about is something which either is happening or it isn't. It is spontaneous, it is not a willful exercise that you kind of do all day long. It is like breathing, it is just happening. And watching happens from here, this is how you watch, not like this. Or maybe the eyes are used to

connect to the head, this way you are watching, now this way you are watching. I don't know how to describe it. And also some people say, "Oh, there is nobody here". This is not going to awaken you. Don't waste your time. Let me explain to you, I am a math teacher. Let's make an example, Rick. Let's say, when these bodies are born, there is one question, a problem, has been given to us to solve. Same exact problem, everybody has to solve that. Let's say, you solve the problem, you got the answer, x = 0, which

is nothingness, and x is also equal to infinite, which is everything. So, you got the answer. And then you come to me and you say, "You know what, I got the answer". Here, you give it to me, I plug in, I test this answer into my problem. So, x = 0, I plug it in, it is working. Isn't that so? x = infinite, I put infinite, I cancel out, rationalize it, it works. But does that mean that I solve this problem? So, now, if I check the answer, it works, you may say something else, as

someone who really solved the problem, you may say, "You know what, that x = 0, that 0 is also equivalent to infinite". See, 0 = infinite, to my mind, I cannot comprehend that. That is the part I get caught. Because I didn't solve this problem, you solved it, you gave me the answer. So, if I sit in the middle of all these people who solved this problem, I have nothing to say. Although I have the answer, I know the answer, x = 0, x = infinite, even if you, I may remember, "Ok, they said x

= infinite, so equivalent, fine, no problem". But that is not awakening. Please do not waste your time, just trying to learn all that and incorporate it into your own life. Try to fit it in, you don't fit in that. This is something like realization, this is not becoming, this is not a study, this is not a becoming kind of a thing, trying to fit in that kind of a thing, idea. There is a Tibetan proverb that I said, I wasn't going to say anymore, because I said it so many times, but it fits nicely into

this, it's "Don't mistake understanding for realization, don't mistake realization for liberation". Oh, beautiful, that does it, yes, absolutely, the liberation part is important. You may realize that somebody noticed, just pointed out to you, but that doesn't mean a thing. And then you know what? They go to these teachers as disciples, they sit down, they have to go to this satsang, and next year, and next... I am not saying not to go to satsang, go there, this is good for the mind, but that is not enough, if that's all you are doing, trying to get the

ideas of what they are saying, and even they said, Buddha said, deeds are happening, events are happening, but there is no doer. Yes, that's true, but that is not meant to be for you to go and use that as a practice. Right, it's a description, it's not a prescription. Exactly, the real practice is your own experience, you have to see it for yourself, like never happened before. And unfortunately, one thing that happens in a lot of these satsangs is that the teachers discourage people from actually doing any sort of practice which might result in that

experience. They say, "Oh, practice is only going to reinforce the notion that there is someone practicing, so don't bother with that, just listen to me". You know what, actually someone practicing, the ego takes you there, that's true, someone is practicing, but ego dissolves in there, that's the part they don't realize that. In this path, ego would burn out, that love I was talking to you, that love, that essence, that experience would burn up the ego. So, now, one other thing that I like to share with, very important is that, in order to be awakened to

who you are, you don't have to have all these experiences either. Like kundalini awakening, if it happens, it happens, but you don't go to someone to try to manipulate your energies, don't do that, because that again delays this process of realization. In order to realize who you are, you don't have to have kundalini awakening. Now that I know, or now that I went through all these experiences, even that person said, "Oh, use that as a..." That to me is a trick for the mind, honestly. You don't need that, and also that love experience that I

have, I told you, love affair, that also doesn't need. Let me tell you why, because when you meditate, when you close your eyes in that silence, when the mind quiets down, in that silence, if you really pay attention, this silence, that isness, that existence of silence is pointing out to the truth. Now, people are mistaken with actual truth, with the silence. The silence of being, that emptiness is the shadow of the truth. It is not the truth. Because the truth doesn't have qualities, is that one way of saying it? The truth is observing that, it

cannot be that. The truth is what is observing that. This is very delicate. People think, "Ok, this is what I have, all the time I get emails, they say, "Oh, I know I am consciousness, but when I go talk to people, I lose myself, and now I have to come back to tap in". Ok, you don't know the truth, because if you know the truth, the truth has to be there, you have to be there, in order to have that interaction. The truth is not any state, any specific state of mind. People think that when

I come to the present and in silence, that is the truth, that is the reflection of the truth. That is the aroma that arises from the truth, but that is not the truth. Truth is always here, whether there is a mind or no mind. Mind can come and go, emotion can come and go, this does not come and go, it is always here, ever present. That is a very important thing, there is no such thing that I go and I forgot who I am and I come back, you don't know who you are, because the

attention may go to the mind, but when this awakening fully happens, and the mind surrenders, the mind is liberated, the attention automatically comes back. You don't have to put any effort, attention comes back here, by itself, there is no effort, it is effortlessly comes back, it is not that I have to remember that attention has to be here, it is not like that. And that mind that was trying to become, and those thoughts of self-seeking, they are automatically vanished, they dissolve. So, it is not that this mind is a quiet mind, it is not saying

anything, nothing going on, this mind is just in service, it is just right here at your service. And this mind realized what is the king. What is the king here? And listening to that, it becomes a tool, really. I was going to say that word, I was going to say it is a tool. That is the tool, just like the way this arm is, so it is in my control now, it is in the control of this. So, that is the end of that, so there is no such thing, I have to bring my attention

back. Another question I get a lot, what is life... Let me just say, wouldn't you agree that if it were something that you had to have by putting your attention there, in other words, if your attention had to be responsible for having that, then it would necessarily be very intermittent. Because by its very nature, the attention does not stay in one place, it goes here, it goes there, according to what we need to do. So, this is more of a foundational, rock-bottom thing, Which is irrespective of where the attention may or may not be. Absolutely,

the attention goes when it is needed, goes out when it is needed and then comes back. It is not going to stay there, like the way it was, and then try to self-seeking, like I have to now become something, and get credits and all of... No, when it is done, the work is done, this comes back right here, and that's it. And that's why, see, the truth is so ordinary, when attention comes back to the ordinariness, it becomes extraordinary. See, that is the gem, this is the gem. This mind has to be trained to respect,

to honor this, as the way it is. See, a mind which never meditated, is not comfortable with the silence, with the stillness. This mind, even if you tell them, what is the truth, this mind would not accept that. Because this mind is not comfortable with the silence, this exist, the aroma of the truth. So, the mind sees that, but the mind bounce back to sleep. That's what happens in people. So, I work with a lot of people, I thought that they understood, they just got it. Not literally, but I thought, they realized what I am

talking about. I felt like a rubber band, You just pull them, they feel like they are there, but the next time they call, they are exactly bounce back. It's amazing, so disappointing. So, what would you say to them, to prevent that rubber band phenomenon? I would say meditate, I would say, you need to go within, just jump in and see it for yourself, what we are talking about. In the meditation, again, not that experience, those love experiences, does not have to happen. That silence is talking to you, when there is nothing else in here, something

is here, as observing this silence. Now, in your own case, meditation was almost involuntary, it was spontaneous, you sort of had no choice, almost. And people hearing your story might think, "Well, she is special, because even since she was a young girl, she was having this recognition that there is no one there, and then as she went through life, she was just almost overtaken by these periods where she would lie down and all this stuff would happen to her." But in my case, I am speaking as someone, I am busy, I sit and try to

meditate, nothing happens, it's boring, so it's like I am not like her, and therefore, maybe I can't get this like she did. That's possible, and to be honest with you, this path is not for everyone, Rick. I am not saying it from the ego, from the mind. This path is, you need that number one, that burning desire that I just mentioned to you. It has to be number one priority of you. Honestly, if this is your first priority, then you can do it, then this opens up for you. But if this is in your list

of the to-do list stuff, and probably at the bottom of that, if I have time, I am going to do meditate, and now I have to take care of my kids and my husband, so go ahead and do it, that is your path. Because this is not, as I said, it's not meant to be, that every single being realize that. It's only for the beings that are so uncomfortable with this format, this play. See, my play was not that much of a horrendous play, but still was not fitting. I knew this is not it, for

a fact I knew this is not it. So something pulling me to find out what is the truth, And what pulls me just this way, I went this way. When I hear a story like yours, I think, well, I believe in reincarnation, for instance, I don't know if everybody does, but I think, alright, well, obviously she built up a head of steam in previous lives, she built up a momentum, and so in this life, even as a young girl, there was that pull, and there were these experiences, and she just picked up where she left

off, like it says in the Gita, Arjuna says, "What happens if a person is on the path and they die?" Krishna just says, "Well, they pick up where they left off, and they are born in a family of yogis, or they are inclined to do this sort of thing." But my response to that would be, well, it's always a good time to start. Even if you don't have the burning fire, and you don't have the spontaneous ability to meditate as you have, start where you are, and there is always something you can do, and maybe

that little spark will grow into a fire. Absolutely, but you mentioned about reincarnation, that's a belief, the mind believes in that. It's a belief, it may be wrong, but who knows. Rick, when you realize the truth, you will notice, there is only one thing in here, there is no individual soul exist in here, so that it would go back and try to reincarnate. You know it for a fact, it's not a belief now. You know there is this, all there is, is this. This is it, because there is no individuality, that's the fairness of this

truth in each body-mind. That's the fairness. Honestly, I think that if that was the case, if the story is right, so then people are born so differently, so different background and different advantages, that's not how I see it. I see this oneness, one unbroken wholeness is functioning throughout these bodies, these are objects, this is not a person here, this is only an object. So if this oneness is functioning here, what is left out, what is going on? Nothing, even if the body drops, I don't go anywhere, this is what I am, always, it doesn't come

and go, this is not something come and go, this is not something evolves, doesn't evolve, this whole game of becoming enlightenment, this is all for mind, this is a mind, it is a mental game, because the truth never ever changes. That's how I experience. That gets us into the whole levels of reality thing, and ultimately there is no universe, not only no reincarnation, not only no mind, but there is no body, there is no universe, a physicist will tell you, boil it down to its essence, and there are no atoms, there are no molecules, there

are no compounds, there are no organs, all that in its essence is unmanifest. But if we give any credence whatsoever for the sake of ... there is that term �mythia' which I heard you mention in one of your talks, which means dependent reality, and the example often used is that of a pot. We see a pot, we put water in it, we put beans in it, we use it as a drum, there seems to be a pot, but really it is only clay, there is no pot. And so, for the sake of relative interaction and

life, we can acknowledge the virtual reality of all these levels and stages and evolution and all that stuff, but ultimately it is all just a fabrication. Exactly, and it is a miracle fabrication, it is a miraculous, don't forget, you see this game of duality, the way, you see, nothing is happening here, and nobody sees it. So, now, watch how things are happening, Look at this, it is just such a miraculous way, and everybody, over 6 billion people, believe that something is here, somebody is here, and something is happening, isn't that beautiful? That is a miracle,

so that you believed in this, in this dream, but when you wake up, in the background, you see the truth, but then you play, this time you play differently, this time you don't take it seriously, you know this is a play, for a fact, you know this is not reality, this is just a play, it is not even a game, game has a winning and losing, and "Oh, I lost in the end", it is not even a game, I am telling you everyone, this is just a play, when you realize that, that is the end

of that. So, it is just like, when they didn't know anything about the moon many years ago, they thought that moon has its own light, so some people worship moon, and "Oh, full moon, beautiful", then they find out that moon does not have any light, moon is inert, so the light comes from the sun, but you know it now, but still you go out and you enjoy a full moon, still you write a poetry for the moon, you are not going to stop doing that, that is the miracle of that, you see what is the

truth in the background, but yet you play the game, you play this just game, and that is how it is. There was a story about Shankara, he was tested by some king, who wanted to see if he was the real deal, And so as he was coming up to the king's palace, the king let loose a wild elephant, and the elephant came running down, and Shankara quickly climbed up a tree, and then the king said, "Ha, you must be a phony, if it is all an illusion, why would you bother to climb the tree?" Shankara

said, "Oh, the illusory elephant chased the illusory me up the illusory tree". That is so, yes, absolutely. It is not that it is not real, it is real, I am touching it, see, this is for now, it is so temporary, you see things as objects, anything that I see and touch, I know that is not ultimate truth, but for now, this is just a play. It is mythia, it is lila. Yes, mythia, so that needs to be realized from fully within. Another question Rick, I want to share with you, a lot of people say that,

so what is life after awakening, after this awareness? Nothing, life goes on, there is no specific, people think they have this image in their minds, that these type of people have to have a specific way they walk or talk or eat, or the kind of lifestyle, none of that. This life goes on as a liberated mind, the mind that is not anymore seeking for the truth and trying to become God. End of the story. We were talking about this common question that I get, that what is the lifestyle of someone who... Right. We just said,

it is very simple, it is just the same way it was, it is very ordinary, you will be amazed how ordinary it is, but yet, as I mentioned, it is extraordinaryness, in that ordinariness, that you have to find this, what I am talking about, you have to be there to realize what I am talking about. There is nothing missing, that is how it feels, it feels that this is whole and complete, and it is unfolding itself, there is no agenda, you don't have anything, you don't need to be or do a plan or anything, the

way that I was, always some agenda or some plan, there is no such thing, allow things come to you, you don't chase things, that's how it is happening in here, that's the only change that happens, if there is any, in here. This mind is free from becoming, it is so in peace with not knowing, not knowing this, see, this mind needs to jump into this unknown, and be trusting it, trusting it, trusting it, always. And everything just unfolds naturally. Absolutely, that trust is important, when I am asking people, if you are experiencing things, Just pay

attention to the watcher who is experiencing it, not just the experience itself, because if you chase the experience, that is going to take a long time, again, long time for you, this realization, just before you make it, then you close your eyes, be aware of that awareness, who is always here, be aware of the peace, which is always here, and then whatever happens, just pay attention to that, and notice that this silence is pointing out to something which is always here, and you need to trust that, that trust is very important, this awakening, once it

happens from the core of the being, it is so self-shining, you don't need to do anything, it is just so here, but the important thing is that, if the mind says, "Oh, this is so simple, this is so ordinary, that should not be it, it has to be something extraordinary and esoteric, as this lady said, the love and this, that is no good, then that takes you again on the journey, so I am emphasizing one more time, during meditation, nothing necessarily needs to happen. I think it is good you are emphasizing that, because some people

are just naturally wired, such that they have kind of flashy experiences, but most people aren't, and the people who aren't, often sort of look to those who are, And think, "Well, it is not happening to me, I am missing, because I am not having flashy experiences, so I must be so far away from it", and I think it is good to, as you are doing, to kind of reassure people that it is not necessarily going to be that way, and it is not going to be for them the way it was for you necessarily, but

it could be just as legitimate. Absolutely, so unique for every being, and I know for a fact that in every body-mind entity, because they have different background and culture and everything else that is coming from, the way that this thing blooms up is so different and unique, that is the beauty of it. This truth does not want to copy, I know for a fact. And if God loves anything, it is variety, look at the universe, look at the plant kingdom, and the animal kingdom, everything is infinite variety. Absolutely, so even two twins, if they decide

to do that, it is not going to be look alike, it is going to be so different, and also knowing that you are already that. You see, this is like a circle, you are going, starting, and then you turn around, you go back to the same exact point, then you circle around, same exact point, point A, and then you turn around, you come back to that point, it is going to be still point A. This is so important to know, you are already there, but there is a veil in there, remember that beggar I told

you that they dress you in that beggar outfit, and now this veil is just removed. Veil, I see you are saying veil, I thought you were saying whale, like the big... When that is removed, all there is, is you, there is no becoming here, you are already that. So how would you reconcile the notion that on the one hand you are saying, know that you are already that, with what you said earlier, which is that it is not an intellectual concept, and you can't know it really by just hearing somebody saying it, such as you

are saying it right now, how would you reconcile those two things? What is to stop people from somebody just walking around saying, I am already that, when they don't really realize it? That is a very good question, I am so glad you asked that, I am so glad Rick, excellent. This message is not for someone that is in the beginning of this path. I gave 3 or 4 different messages throughout this whole entire lecture, so for someone who is a beginner, I would say, just go within, discover the truth yourself, and every answer is here.

And you would advocate some sort of meditation for that person? That is the only thing it worked for me, for this body-mind, this body needed to go to this cocoon. So, this worm has to put this cocoon around itself, and stay there, and then all of a sudden open up and fly out. That is the way this body wants it to do. But if you have some other way you think, because there is not only one way, there is not one way, there is 6 billion ways to do this, let's put it this way. But

if your path, if you think you are comfortable with meditation, and that is pretty much what all of Iranian Sufis and mystics they are mentioning. Rumi at the end of every poem, it says in "Kolya Dasha", it says "Khamush", Khamush means silence, silence, silence, keep saying that. They don't introduce any specific methodology of the silence, how you do that. There are so many different ways of meditation, mine was not any specific way, not watching the breath or any of that, it was mostly be aware, aware of what is come and go, not even quieting the

mind, because mind quiets down on its own, you don't need to force it. So, very important, even in this path, there are so many people say, "Oh, I have to keep myself quiet", that's not what it is. The awakening is not about a quiet mind, you awaken to the truth of who you are, and the mind can come and go, and there is nothing wrong with that, and emotions are come and go, and it doesn't have to be any specific emotions, it doesn't have to be always joyful, blissful, it is not like that. Because this

body is conditioned, this body has gone through so many things in their DNA and all that, so let the body, just whatever arises in the body, it will arise, as long as you know who you are, doesn't matter what is happening in this body. So, that's the advice you would give for a relative beginner? Absolutely, and the people who are in the middle, you need to come into some sort of contemplations, like this "I" that I am talking about, is there an "I" in here, apart from the memory? There are memories here, go investigate, is

there an "I" apart from this memory exists, that is claiming all these memories? There is no doubt about that, whatever happens in the mind, it happens, but is that true, that there is this "I" in here? So, sort of a self-inquiry you are saying, for the intermediate people? Yes, and also, this "I" keeps saying that, I am so conditioned, I have to uncondition myself. Go and find out if this "I" is an authentic "I", is this "I" real? These are all questions I have to ask myself. And how does the person find that out? Open

your eyes, go and search, where is this "I"? Show it to me, close it, very simple, is this "I" here? Is this "I"? Show it to me, where is it? You see there is nobody here, there is in this, and also, this is very important, when you say "I", immediately you are going to the mind and the history. "I" when you say "I" is in this minute, who you are, it is always in the presence that we have, this is the only time there is, in the presence of here, who am I? If you don't

go to the mind, because the mind has stories, so therefore that separate sense of self is there as an illusion, and have that story, so this mind is not authentic, the mind is trying to keep itself quiet, I have to keep my mind quiet, see, I am watching this sentence right now, I am as an observer, I have to keep myself quiet, bring my mind over here, I have to be in the present moment, who is saying that? You don't have to, but you are saying this as someone who might say that, right? Someone might

say that, yes, if they say I have to be in the present moment, who is this "I"? Because as presence that you are, you don't need to be present, who wants to be present? See, these are the good questions, ask yourself, the presence that you are does not need any of that, that "me" that is trying to be is not authentic, you go and see that, so this is for the middle people, And the people who are at the tail end, they have to jump, jump, jump, this drop has to drop, that means that if

you really know that you are this awareness, this existence that is here, and you are totally one with that, it is not you are apart from that, the mind has to surrender, your mind has to value this, and trust this, this mind has to know this is all there is, admits that, I don't know how to say it, just melts into this. Was that a choice for you, or did it happen spontaneously, when it happened? That was a little bit of effort, because... A little bit of a choice? Yes, it was choice, because at that

time the truth was here, but this mind keeps trying to become that again, still wants to be one with that, and pay attention to that, and just be with that, that kind of it, very mild, very mild. So, you recognized that you were doing that, and you just kind of voluntarily gave up the effort. Yes, one day it happens, just dropped. And you felt like enough. That's it, there is nothing, you realize that this cannot be known, but it can be lived, you can dance it, but you cannot describe this, you know it, you live

it, but you cannot describe it, you cannot describe this. This cannot be talked about, you cannot talk about it, the moment you talk about it, it is not the truth anymore. So, you can go sit in front of a lot of teachers, and they talk about it, absolutely, they point into it, they mention it, but talking about it does not cut, it just does not satisfy you, it does not awaken you. So, if you are just thinking, using them, and bringing home, and mom thinks, "Oh, ok, I know I am aware". A lot of people,

I get phone calls, "Oh, I know that I am aware, I know that I am not this body and mind". But, if in every there is a but in there, I know something is not, there is no but. If you know who you are, that's it, you know it. Like for example, if right now I ask you, "Rick, are you hungry?" Answer me, just anything. Well, actually I am not at the moment. How do you know that? Because that's my experience, that's the way I feel, I don't feel hungry, I had breakfast, I am ok.

Can you prove it to me? Just let me see how it is. I don't know if I could prove it. Is that needed to be proved? No, because it's my knowledge, it's my experience. Exactly, the same way that you know yourself, that's the same exact way, you know this, you don't have to prove it, you know it, it's very important, this knowing is not, and that not knowing that comes from the mind, it has a wisdom behind that, that not knowing is a surrender not knowing. When I was a 6 year old girl, that not

knowing was scary not knowing, that not knowing needed to know, have to know, it's just something so puzzled, I really have to know that, it's a huge difference Between these two not knowing, huge, although both of them are not knowing. Both of them was the same experience, but one was just a not knowing who started a path, a desire, a burning desire, the other not knowing completed this desire, completed, although it's not knowing. How could you not know still? But you be in peace, how could that be? That's the miracle. You surrendered to it. Fully,

that has to happen. After a long and winding road, you surrendered to it. And I think things can't happen till they happen, they can't happen till they are ready to happen. You couldn't have as a 6 year old girl, you didn't have a choice to somehow be like this now, you had to sort of go through all those things sequentially, or I don't know, can't say have to, but that's the way it happened, and you didn't appear to have any big choice at any stage of the game, you just went from one thing to the

next and then finally here you are. Exactly, and what I also want to say is that, although I didn't have any teacher and guru, I am not saying that it shouldn't have. As a matter of fact, if the teacher is really knowing the truth, can help you in the right place, Because they see you, where you stand, where you are right now, they can guide you through that. But they cannot transfer you the knowledge, this knowledge is individual. So, I am not saying that you shouldn't have that, but I am saying that you have to

do your own investigation also. So, that's why what I do is, I don't have classes like that, because I really do not want to talk about questions, the only question you need to have, one question, that's a solid gold question, and what is that? Who am I? That's the only question I want to hear. If I hear something else, I cannot go along with that, because these questions are being answered by other teachers. Let these people go and answer their questions, get the answers, whatever answers they want. Once they are at the tail end of

themselves, there is absolutely nothing else they can do. Once this mind is at the tail end of this rope, then you can contact me. Because that's the only way. And I bend for you backwards, and that's for free. There is no donation, I don't live my life like this, thank God I have a good life, I don't need to get donations or any of that. I do this for the humanity. I just want this message to go around, and people, if that resonates with you, totally, you can contact me, And I see where you are.

And if you are in the beginning, I would tell you, if you are in the middle, or if you are at the end. But I know there are some people who are at the end, they are struggling so badly. At the end, that at the end people who have to jump, I think I can help them with the mind, not with the awakening. The awakening is something from within, it has to happen from the core of your being. But the mind is not necessarily surrenders to that. Mind still wants to play the game. So, that

part definitely I can help. And also I have to tell you, all these people I talked to and tried to help, honestly it didn't work out the way I wanted. But there are two people in my life that they were so ready to hear this, and I have to mention, one is my son, he is only 21, and he told me that, "Mommy, when I was up to 10 years old, I see myself as a vision." A vision? The same vision. Chip off the old block, as they say. Yes, that's what happened. And he was

explaining about it, exactly, that's what it was. And so I pointed out to him the awareness, the existence that he is. So, he knows, he is aware of that. He is aware of the awareness, but he is not fully surrendered, because the ego, the separate sense of self Is still there, you can see. So, he acknowledged that, because I pointed out to that. But he has to go through this path of complete completeness, complete surrender, and that. So, that's one, which is very easy. And the other one was my sister. My sister is in Hawaii,

and she lives there, and she all day long, she was a meditator, all day long, in the beach, at home, long time. So, as I was talking to her over the phone, and I point out to the awareness, to the existence, absolutely, bingo, she says, "Oh my goodness, of course, of course." She was just shouting, and she was happy. So, that kind of readiness. This is not a message that every ear, every mind can hear. This message right now, if the people are listening, there are certain group of people, they can definitely hear this, and

they say, "Oh my goodness, of course, of course". But there are some people who hear this, but they don't understand, they don't comprehend, that mind is not ready to hear this. So, therefore, there is a whole bunch, that's why these classes are difficult, because there are so many variety of group of people sitting here, it is not in the same level. So, whatever you are saying, it hits some people, it doesn't hit other people, it is just so, the energies and everything is not really the way it is supposed to. So, I definitely say, if

you want to go there, go ahead, but just do your own homework. You have to do it on your own. This is something, it is like resurrecting, this needs some sort of effort, not effort mentally, from this body, it has to happen here, and so, have that in mind, and do not mistake the real truth with the silence. The real truth is not just the silence of the mind, it is not just this stillness, you are close, very close, but somebody has to point out to you, what is the truth in here, and that is

so self-shining, if somebody is aware of that, and fully that, and has such confidence, and such beauty, and joy, and energy comes out of them, so when you see that, if it resonates with you, you say, "Oh my God, this is the kind of being I like to interact, this person can just definitely help me", and that is my suggestion, other than that, I just know, I just want to say that, although it is a long way, but it is very well worth it, it is worthwhile, because there is a difference between you as a

separate self of self, living this life, not knowing who you are, but you as this whole totality, knowing who you are, it is a huge difference. Huge difference, and I would say that even if it is a long way, every stage of the path is rewarding, So it is not like nothing is happening, and then all of a sudden, boom! It is like there is some kind of reinforcement as you go along. Absolutely, as I said, that is why Atar has the 7 steps, it is like you are going from this stage to a stage,

and it is unfolding, it is cooked up, it is like baking, something is baking, something is just unfolding, getting ready, and finally blooms, it finally blooms, like that, and that's it, once it blooms, done! End of the story, Rick, there is no more becoming, mind is free, this mind is not anymore looking for, searching for things, and desires, those kind of desires that mind has, gone. And of course, what you are saying now kind of clashes with the popular notion these days that, "Oh, you shouldn't think that it is somewhere in the future, and that

there is some path that you are going to go through, and you are eventually going to arrive at some goal, because that just gets you out of the present, yada yada." I mean, maybe on some level that is true, but also I think as your whole story has illustrated, it is not true, and there can very well be an unfoldment that appears to take place in time, even if there is no time, And a realization that finally dawns, that may appear to take place at a certain time, even though ultimately it's always been there, and

so on and so forth, it's the old paradox thing. Very true, and just remember, when we say path, people think, "Oh, path means from point A to point B", that's not what we are talking about, I just said, you are in the same circle, you end up with the same exact spot, that's not from point A, it is point A to point A, but it is this way, it is not this way, so there is a difference. This way, do you follow what I am saying? It is this way, this way, always here, here, everything

happens here, it seems like everything happens at the same time, here, this way, things are happening this way, that's the reality, the illusion of the mind, it seems like things are happening horizontal, it is not horizontal, everything is here, and everything is happening here, but happening is not, I am not saying happening, I don't know how to describe it, it is just so hard sometimes, ultimately all of these happenings are nothing, they end up with nothing, there is nothing happening, I mean right now, all of these talks that we have, that came back to nothing,

to nothingness, So eventually, ultimately nothing is happening, so that is what I am talking about, the function of you in this path is here, here, here, it is not some future kind of thing is going to happen, no, this is like unfolding in here, the truth unfold itself to itself, by itself. Excellent, there is a verse in the Gita which says exactly that, there is also a beautiful T.S. Eliot poem I am reminded of here, which I can't quote exactly, but it is something about coming back to where we started and realizing the place for

the first time. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely, coming back to what we started, exactly that, that means nothing has to improve in here, that you are that already, you are that, see again, this message is for not beginners again, you are not that, you are already, you notice that, oh my goodness, there is nothing to become, absolutely nothing, to become, because this mind was so into this, now this here, there is nothing, and everything arises from this nothingness, see, it just arises, like all these talks that you hear, like, oh my God, this is just coming

out of this, and it is so powerful, it is so energetic, people feel that energy, it is not just some learned stuff, That somebody is talking about, you feel the energy that comes from this talk, it has a power behind that, so people notice that, it is noticeable, it is very powerful, and that is what I am seeing in that body right now, I mean this is the same exact thing, talking to itself, there is only one, this is only alone, and another thing, that sense of false security that this "me" has, me and my

God, that is gone. And replaced, I would suggest, by real security. All there is, is this, you have to be very mature, this mind has to be very mature to surrender to this, it has to be maturity, you have to have to stand up for this truth, and claim it, and knowing it, and knowing that is all there is, so this maturity has to be there, that readiness to hear this, has to be there, you cannot just know this and then go and say, oh my God, I am God, and talk to God, talk to

God, conversation with God, you cannot do that, there is no two in here, there is no you, there is no God, there is no somebody else, there is no any of that, all there is, is this, this is all there is, and that's the end of that. So, that is what it is, very powerful, your mind completely trusted this, relies on this, although it is not tangible, Although you cannot do this, but it is so here. Beautiful, well I could talk to you all day, but I probably better not, but this is beautiful, I have

really benefited from this conversation, I would say more so than many of the conversations I have, it has really kind of resonated with me, hit home to a deep level, so I really appreciate it, and maybe we will do another one sometime. Absolutely. I am sorry, go ahead. Yes, Rick, I am trying to write this down, I put it in writing, and again, the whole path and the whole thing, so when the people read that, they see, oh my God, there is this way of doing, unfolding, I am doing that, so within the next month

or so, I am just putting some stuff in writing, and I would love to share that with you. Oh, I would love to read it. Are you turning it into an actual book, or you are just going to put it on your website? In a website, as I mentioned to you, I don't want to create a business out of this, that is how it comes from here. I don't want to have a book, I don't want people to have to buy this book, in this path, Rick, you don't have to pay a dime. Nothing. You

can turn it into a PDF, that people can download. Absolutely, I am going to put it in PDF, I am going to put it on my website, but I definitely like to talk to you about this again, because I am sure that I get a lot of emails, talking, people get back to me, and again, some more questions comes up, and I love to do that here, like here, so that would clarify, this has to be clarified with so many people, people are confused. Maybe what we could do is, after you have written the thing,

send it to me and I will read it, and then you could also accumulate a list of the kinds of questions that people are submitting, and also on my website, people will submit questions when they hear this interview, and let me actually conclude by explaining that, this interview is posted on batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, which is an acronym for Buddha at the Gas Pump, and it is also on YouTube, and it is also a podcast, and so on. But each time I post a new interview, there is a little discussion group that often springs up around each

particular one, And sometimes people get off on tangents and talk about all kinds of things, although we have a general comment section for that, we try to encourage people to stay focused on what this particular interview is about. So this will be posted there, and if you have questions for Ellie, or questions that you would like to discuss among yourselves, please go there and you will find that. And also, if you would like to be notified each time I post a new interview, there is an email sign-up thing on the website where you will just

get, on the average, one email a week announcing each new interview. I don't sell the email list to anything, or you will start getting spam. So please do that if you wish. And I guess that's about it. Oh, and of course I will have a link to Ellie's website there, so that you can go there, read what she is offering, and get in touch with her if you like, but only if you are advanced. No, I am not excluding everyone. Honestly, no. I am just joking. But anyway, so that's a good conclusion. So I really

appreciate having had this conversation with you, and we will have another one. And the next interview is Gangaji, so she will be coming up Tuesday night. So thank you everyone for listening or watching, and we will see you next time. Thank you. Thank you Ellie, I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. Okay. [Music]