Os Segredos Para Escalar No Mercado Americano | Ning Li - Segredos da Escala #109

In the US, it's compliance is getting to a point where if you make big bold claims, it actually it's harder to get it to work on paid traffic and other areas. And um we've cracked the code cuz we've had a VSSL do really well without direct claims. There's a lot of ways to play the game with little advantages or even big advantage that people don't see. accelerators. >> Let's say that you hired to to create a promotion like a a VSSL that will scale on cold traffic. The first thing that you do is probably research,

right? >> Yeah. So, you know, I tell people that there's a triangle, right? There's a there there's three things I need to research um before I start writing. Number one is I've retired from coaching. >> Yeah. >> Um because I'm making too much money From just writing copy. AI has really changed the game. The people that make the most money have to write better than chat GPT. They have to write copy that converts better. In order to learn how to do that, you can't rely on chat GPT because chat GPT will only spit out copy

that's at the level of the person using chat GPT. In the US, the paid media costs are very high. In the PaleoHacks network, our sequence of events that we our process that we go Through is we launch a VSSL on email traffic. So on our internal email traffic, if it's doing really well there, then we escalate it to paid. That's my process. Players. for comment. So Ning, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. >> Thank you for having me on. >> Thank you. So first of all for the few people that don't know you

yet h could You please let the audience know like what you do what you have done and a little bit about yourself? >> Yes. So uh I have been in copywriting and direct response marketing for about nine years I think. Um I have sold I don't know I have not kept track but it is well into the uh tens of millions of dollars um in products online. Uh I've uh written VSSLs for Agora New Market Health Organifi. Um I worked for Copy Accelerator as their first uh one-on-one Copy coach. Justin and Stefan hired me to

be their copy coach during 2022. I think 2021, 2022. Um, and these days I have also coached a lot of copywriters. I believe I've coached more copywriters one-on-one face to face than anyone else on the planet. Um, over 400, 500 writers. I coached people for about six to seven years. Um, so I've seen every problem that copywriters have >> at all the different levels. And these days I um have stopped copy coaching and I'm only writing copy. I'm the senior copywriter and copy chief at Paleo Hacks which is an 8 figureure health brand. Uh we

have four or five different brands underneath us. We sell things from we sell supplements, cookbooks. Uh we have a brand that does consumables like avocado oil, salt. Um that's that company is based in Mexico. Um, I write or oversee the copy for all these different brands and we operate in probably what I would call the the Biggest email network in health, which is the Mike Giri email affiliate network. Um, that's where we test all our VSSLs and yeah, that's that's what I do. >> Got it. So, the the first question that I have is something

that you just mentioned right now. Uh do do you think it's like valid to test a VSSL in an email list? Because when you're when you are going to actually run it, you're going to run to cold traffic and you we Know that has as has direct marketers that like 40% of the campaign success is actually the list that you're going to advertise to. >> So why do you do this? Because to me here in Brazil at least I think we don't do that because but of course we are behind the United States. >> Mhm.

>> But that that's something that I always wanted to know like why do you test it on email list and then >> Yeah. because it it's not >> Sorry. Go ahead. >> Yeah. Yeah. My best guess is that in Brazil and in other like in Europe the paid media is less competitive. So you can get better prices on ads. Um, so it's it's easier to make things convert on paid traffic if your if your costs are low. In the US, the paid media costs are very high. So because there's a lot of competition in the

in the advertising space. So in our in the Paleo hacks Network, our um sequence of events that we our process that we go through is we launch a VSSL on email traffic. on on our internal email traffic. We have um I I don't know if my CEO wants me to reveal how big our email list is, but it's it's quite big. It's um and we get good numbers and so we launch the email the the VSSL on email. We do um some email sends. Based off the email numbers, we can tell how good it is,

right? Usually what we've seen is um the Email numbers will translate over to paid. So a VSSL that puts up really good numbers in email will also do really well on paid. Um got it. >> So if we have really good numbers usually um we launch with eight leads >> and then three or two or three of the leads would do poorly. Two or three of the leads would do average and then one or two would really be like a you know really good numbers. So then we would take that one or two leads that

is doing Really well and we do creative testing on it. So we test different email angles and hooks. Then when we get that optimized that goes out to the Mike Giri email network. So I marketing is they have 40 different email lists all in the health sphere. So if we tested it and it puts up good numbers internally, it goes out to Ialey. They start testing it on their lists. If it puts up good numbers on their lists, it goes out to they put it on all the Lists. So they command a lot of traffic

over there. And then if they do that, then we get a ton of email traffic. >> Okay. >> So we can tell based based on how it's doing to the Illley lists compared to all the other VSSLs in the email affiliate network. If it's doing really well there, then we escalate it to paid. >> Got it. Got it. >> Then if Yeah. The sequence of events is internal affiliate email affiliate then Paid. >> Got it. Oh, makes sense. That's nice. Thanks for that. >> Yeah. >> So, you you said that you are one of the

like most experienced copy coaches in the world. You have coached like uh hundreds of people. And what do you think is like the beginning of a copyriter if they want to actually become a good copyriter? because I I for for example I've been Doing copyriter copyrightiting for around 10 years now and when I started I started by reading all the copyrightiting uh books the classics >> for example unifor John cable Gary Har these guys >> but right now in 2024 or 2025 I don't know when you're watching this >> but we have like these modern

curses that people actually go straight into the into the the the the subject matter. For example, the RNBC if you want to Write health copy >> or maybe other frameworks that are helpful for today's market. >> How do you see this first step? Do you think that they should go to to books or maybe courses or even some something else? >> Um that's a good question. I I could rant on this for a long time. So when I started um I did the same thing that you did which was I read books um breakthrough advertising

By Eugene Schwarz and um ultimate sales letter. I read all the books, right? And then um there weren't any, you know, when I started, there weren't that many courses. Like I couldn't go on YouTube and find here's how to write a long form sales letter, right? >> So, you know, when I was starting, I had to >> watch VSSLs, pause them, write, you know, transcribe them by hand, unpause the entire VSSL by hand. And then I had To go in and figure out the sequence and the logic sequence. And I did that. Um, that's how

I learned. And you know, when I was learning, I also, my mentor Dan Ferrari, he told me to go to swipe.co, which is a website that holds all the old newspaper copy. Um, so print ads. Yeah. So he told me to go there and uh find everything by Schwarz, Benga, and Halbert, print those out, and then handcopy them. So, I did that. Um, when I was starting out, I did that like Three hours a day and then I would write and um I've written I've still have my old notebooks of that. So, I did that

a lot and then um I wrote long form um for I had a YouTube channel back then with um with a business that I wrote copy for my own business. And so that's kind of how I got started. Nowadays, I think it's a lot harder. I I think it's a lot harder for copyrighters to get started because back then um you you could get started and you could get paid to like To grow and learn. Nowadays, you're competing with AI who's so so AI I think uh robs beginning copywriters of it makes it very easy

to just not write and use AI. And so, um, there's a different skill set there that, you know, like a like a copyriter starting now, there's no way they have written as many words as I have, right? Yeah. >> There's no I've written over half a million words in my career. Right. And I I believe that like a copywriter skill will scale with how many words you've written, >> right? It's kind of like it's kind of like basketball, right? like uh Stephen Curry, there's no way you've taken as many shots as Steph Curry. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Of course. Yeah. >> So, um that's one of the things I I believe in in pretty much any skill. It's like repetition, pattern recognition, feedback, and then Improvement on whatever the the action is, right? So, there's no way someone who's going to use AI in their beginning of the career um is going to write as much as someone who doesn't use AI. >> Yeah. And you're not going to learn how to write. That that's the one skill you need to learn is how to write. Um the most the the people right now in copywriting

AI has really changed the game. The people that make the most money have to write better than chat GPT. They have to write copy that converts better. Um, so in order to learn how to do that, you can't rely on chat GPT because chat GPT will only spit out copy that's at the level of the person using chat GPT. So how do you get better is like this is just my belief, but you have to write. You have to write a lot. >> Yeah. >> You know, so >> makes sense. Of course. Do you think

Though that I mean that's of course like the ideal thing like if you start to hand copy stuff and you just write stuff you of course learn things but I don't know for you but I mean I'm not the best copyriter. I sold around 50 million in these 10 years but for >> sounds like you're pretty good. Yeah, here in Brazil I am, but like not, you know, Stefan Georgia, billion dollar copyriter, that that kind of stuff. But yeah, but one thing that I found very Helpful is to just focus on the ideas like the

the psychology of what you're you're you're talking to to what you're presenting to the audience. >> For example, how to get attention, what mechanism are you going to to use to make people believe in your offer? And then once I have these these very uh good ideas, these solid solid ideas, then what I try to do is to try to find the way to communicate these ideas, the actual writing in other copies. For Example, the swipe file.com that you said there was a headline in one of these swipe files that was like this. Um, Atlanta

housewife arrested, investigated and almost arrested for losing 63 pounds. Then I I found this headline very interesting >> like what the [ __ ] this woman got arrested for losing weight like why does this happen and then I just swipe this this headline this structure and then I added my ideas for example this guy was Arrested for doing X >> that way I think that I can cheat in the writing because the copy was already written by someone in the past someone that writes way better than me then all that I all that I have

to do is just put my my ideas in this like old copy, then I can grab lots of copy from from everywhere that that has some good writing, put it in a in a a sales letter, and then the work will not be to actually write copy, but just to edit The copy, to make it like congruent with everything to to make it like, >> you know, to to make it good copy. >> Yeah, I I like that. I have a similar process where um you know say I'm writing say I'm writing blood sugar VSSL

right let's just pick just a you know very basic one >> so if I'm writing a blood sugar VSSL you know my process is that I go through >> you know we have years and years of Email data so we have data on what emails convert the best what email hooks have put up the most clicks and So the first step I do is I go through what are the top performing blood sugar VSSLs on the Mike Giri email network. What are the email creatives? Which email creatives are clicking the best? So I have access

to that data which is very very valuable data. Right? >> So then once I see that then I know like okay this is what the audience responds To. Why why why is this one converting the best? Why is this one clicking the highest? Then I have a good better and better idea of what the audience cares about. And then one other thing you can do here is um you know hooks are really important right like ideas like you just said the you know 68-year-old woman arrested for losing 68 pounds or whatever whatever it is those

hooks are really important right um that's going to what's carry The front of the VSSL like the first minute or so is like how great your hook is. So, you know, how do I go about figuring out what hook to use is um I don't need to I can look at there's there's mountains and mountains of data out there that tell you which hooks perform the best. For example, you can go on YouTube, right? Just do a basic search on YouTube for diabetes or blood sugar and then look at the number of views and the

thumbnails and the titles Of the best performing videos. >> Yeah. >> Right. Then watch them. Right. then you're going to see, you know, why is this video performing better than this video? Why did this video get this many views? A lot of the YouTube algorithm is watch time. So, but you know, the ideas and the the the thumbnails and the clicks, that is all work that other people have done that I can learn from, right? That tell me what the audience Cares about. >> Yeah. >> Right. Tik Tok is another thing I use. Tik Tok

is great for hooks because it's all just hooks. It's all visual and and and video hooks, >> right? So, if something goes viral there, then I know people are watching it >> and then I learn a lot about my audience. So, a lot of what copyrighting is, yes, there's the writing aspect, but It's this the the hook farming is is what I might call it. >> It's collecting these ideas that are if you get the right idea, it's a million millions. It's worth millions and millions of dollars. One sentence, the right sentence is worth millions

and millions of dollars. So, you know, that's that's part of that's why that's part of my process is I have my own gold mine of of copy hooks for for health and for you know, whatever other niches if I'm writing for those niches. But if I see something in my feed or or you know, I have a good idea come to me, I'm I'm storing it in that gold mine and then I'm deploying it in whatever the next project is. Yeah. I I want to get in your to to your copyrightiting process, how how you

write PSSL, but uh before that uh just to comment on what you just said, one thing that I think the audience may find valuable too is to look all these things that you said like YouTube, Tik Tok, but you can also buy some sort of spy tool. For example, ad spy. There's one that I'm using right now, DTub. I know it looks like a porn site, but it's not. It's actually a spy tool. Yeah. Yeah. They just they chose the worst name ever. Like deep. What the [ __ ] They chose that. Yeah. But but

it's it's pretty cool because then you can actually find the ads that are scaling >> and then if you see that there's some There's some ad that is running for like months and has lots of views, then you know that that specific angle is working. >> Yes. And to me, I think that's like the creme de la creme, the best of the best because it's something that is working in paid traffic which has like the biggest scale ever. >> Yeah. >> And then yeah, that's something that I also do. So I don't know. I just

wanted To say that to the audience. >> Um I like that we also use that. Um and the the step beyond that. So you know that's the the idea farming phase of it. And I based I base like the weight of how good those ideas are based on whatever performance metrics I can I have access to. Right? So if you know an ad is scaling then you know it's you know how how do you know are you certain and how do you know because it could be one ad that's scaling could be 100x of Another

ad right? So >> yeah it's true. you know how like if you know if you know how certain are you right if what scale are you certain about right so once you figure that out then you know my process is to how do I do that except double down on why it works so if I find that that hook right why is that working and how do I double down on that idea how do I double down and do it a little bit different >> you know so That's that's kind of like my my process.

>> Uh did this but this is not the beginning of your process, right? Or is it >> um of the process of what of writing? >> Yeah. Let's say that you hired to to create a promotion like a a VSSL that will scale on cold traffic. And since since we're talking about this, let's say it's for blood sugar, the first thing that you do is pro probably Research, right? >> Yeah. So, you know, I tell people that there's a triangle, right? There's a there there's three things I need to research um before I start writing.

Number one is the product, right? What makes the product unique? What's in the product? Um how do I sell this product? Number two is the audience, >> right? So, the person I'm talking to, I need to really fully understand that. I don't if if I don't fully understand the Person, then I don't feel comfortable. Like I I really I just I like So my best promotions are when I actually talk to someone who's experienced the problem. So for example, in the past year, the best um our our best performing VSSL was a thyroid supplement. >>

Yeah. >> And I couldn't find any thyroid VSSLs that were really performing well. There was one by Dr. Pompa. Um but it wasn't for a thyroid supplement. as for like a Testing kit. So, um it was tough for me because I didn't have as much VSSL data. Um and I didn't understand the audience. Well, it's a very it's a female problem. So, I went to as many women as I could and asked if they knew anyone who had a thyroid problem. And when I found someone, I talked to them. I asked to either take them

out to lunch or or whatever. I just asked to talk to them for as long as I could. And so I did that and then after I did that I Understood it a lot better and then when I understand the person and what their experience is like then uh then I feel more comfortable sitting down to write. >> Yeah. >> So so so it's product audience and then the the market. So what other offers are there out there that try uh that um that promise to solve the same problem, >> right? >> And then how

are they performing? What are the best ones? What are the worst Ones? Why are these performing well? Why are those not performing well? Once I understand these three areas, so product, market, and audience, then I feel comfortable sitting down to start putting the promotion together. >> Got it. Just a quick question, but when you're hired, does it always have like a product already or you're hired to actually create a product from scratch? >> Um, it depends. Sometimes it's we Already have a product, we already have a VSSL. Can you beat that that VSSL? >> Got

it. >> And sometimes it's we're starting from scratch. Here's a product that doesn't have any promotional materials. Can you create a promotion for it? And sometimes there's a third category which is we don't have a product. Can you come up with one for us? Those often tend to be the best. When I have a hand in the offer creation process and I tell the R&D team, hey, can you create this for me? >> Yeah. >> Then I have a lot more power because I have power in positioning the offer. like I have a lot more

uh control over whether the promotion does well or not because I can guarantee that I'm selling something that people want. >> Yeah, that's true. >> Sometimes sometimes business owners, They give you something, they don't know whether people want it or not, right? They just had this great idea. Let me create a this, right? >> But sell to to schemos. >> Yes. But if I can come in and I say I want to do this, can you guys create this? Then I can sell it like this. then I have a lot more power. So yeah. >>

Yeah. I think that's the best approach in my opinion like business owners they should um like first see what sells then Create the the product that will actually sell. What I used to do is to just call the industry said hey I want for example a diet supplement because I think that the weight loss market is really good. What kind of supplements do you have? And then they would give me the list. I would see which one has the biggest uh proof elements just built in because then I can actually prove the mechanism and it

will be way easier to convince people that the mechanism Actually works because I have all this proof to to use it. >> So that I think that's the best approach when we are creating a product. >> Yeah. At Paleax we used to sell cookbooks. So, you know, uh we've launched 17 or 18 different cookbook funnels. And when the cookbooks really started taking off was in my second or third year. My first few years at Paleax, I didn't write that many winning promotions. In fact, it was like only One in one in four or five would

do well. Um but in the second or third year we switched to um me coming up with the idea of what cookbook to do then asking the the recipe creation team to create recipes according to what I wanted. Right? So you know the ideas I had all were around the the ideas that clicked the best. Like I wanted recipes that were under 15 minutes. Can can you create recipes that take people 15 minutes or less in the kitchen to make? Right? Or like, you know, it only requires five to 10 minutes of kitchen time. Is

that possible? Can you guys create that? Because that's what I want to say in the copy, right? >> Or can you create fat loss brownies? Can you create fat loss um you know, insert junk food that people like? >> Right? >> Those are the two categories. And I started directing the team on like here's I want a book like this that's Full of these types of recipes. Can you create that for me? Right. Then we we started putting out just one cookbook after the other and they all just started doing well. So >> that was

like a big change. Yeah. >> But to do that you actually need to first research the the other two pillars, right? the audience and the market because then you you'll find out what can actually uh work and when it comes to the audience you said that you You need to really understand people what do you mean by that to understand do you mean like maybe I don't know like filling a checklist or >> um >> what what >> that's a good question >> sorry go ahead >> that's a good question um I need to understand

what their experience is like with the problem that I'm promising to solve. Right? So for that, for example, For the thyroid lady, um you know, I asked her, "How long have you been experiencing low thyroid problems?" Right? When did it first start? What was that like? Were you just cold all the time or you know, what were the what were the symptoms? And then how did you try to solve that? >> Right? You know, she first went to the doctor. What was that like? I want to just be able to just see the whole thing,

you know? So, it's I think It's just about being a curious human being, right? And just trying to like I almost want to be able for me to write a diary of someone experiencing a thyroid problem, right? How did you try to solve it? What worked? What didn't? you know, and I just kind of let my curiosity take hold during that interview or that questioning session. Um, does that answer your question? Um, >> yeah, of course. Uh, to be honest, There's more things that I would like to know because >> Sure. >> Uh, for example,

actually, one tip that I I wanted to give the audience is this thing that you just said, the diary. One thing that I do in my research process, I use the checklist by Gary Benga that he like he presented in his seminar, the 100 seminar. I think you're familiar with that. >> And yeah, it has lots of questions there. And one question that he says that that it was really a game changer for me is that you you can you should read books about the market. And it's crazy because if you go to Amazon and

you just type there for example weight loss story or I don't know wrinkles story or blood sugar story >> there will be actual diaries just just that what you say the people will actually write all their experiences There and they create like a [ __ ] book >> that you can you can actually look >> Yeah. And they they say the same stuff over and over again. Right. If you read enough Amazon comments or Reddit comments, they all you're going to see a pattern. You're going to see 80% of the people always say this. >>

Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. >> But but for example, there there was a Book called Face It. What women really feel has their look changes. And that book was amazing because I I Yeah, man. >> That's interesting. >> It's amazing. It's amazing. I wrote my first like not my first but one of my best-selling VSSLs just because of that book because it gave me like a a really deep insight in into the psychology of women that are getting old. What do they feel? How do they see that? How they feel invisible that no one is looking

at Them? How they feel that their best times are behind right now and and now they have to face their their wrinkles every day in the mirror and they feel bad about it. They feel ugly. their husband doesn't look at her anymore. >> The husband starts to look at younger girls and that kind of stuff. >> So, >> I talked to um uh one of my uh one of my past students tal like she had a a moment like that. She had a she had a Moment where she was like, "Oh my god, I looked

in the mirror this morning and I saw, you know, my first wrinkle or something." >> Yeah. and she was freaking out and um I was, you know, I was curious so I just started asking her about it, you know, and um you know, after asking her all this stuff and it's like, God, that's the perfect buying moment, you know, like right after a woman sees her first wrinkle. >> It's like that's when they're in buying heat, >> right? So, I almost want to like >> position the promotion for that moment. Um, >> that that's probably

the the peak of the of the emotion where they're buying heat and then, you know, of course they're going to buy stuff >> past that, right? But it's almost like um it's it's like when men lose their hair, >> you know, that's also like a peak moment is when they first look in the mirror and they're like, "Wait a minute, like I think I'm losing my hair." And then they start freaking out. That's perfect buying moment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I know. exactly how how it is. >> Yeah. >> I have firsthand experience with that.

>> Yeah. So, that's when I imagine they'll go out and buy $500 worth of, you know, Hair products. >> Yeah. >> So, you know, I I did a a hair loss promotion once, too. And um you know, if anyone's in that market, I I'm just telling you just spam before and after photos. Just literally just as many as you can. >> Yeah. That's how you sell that. >> Yeah, it worked for me. That's for sure. >> Yeah. >> But Ning, so what do you think that people really should look at? I I mean besides talking

to to the the the the prospect and besides reading books on Amazon, do you have other tips so people can actually do this research phase and get a get really good insight about? The best my best tip is to talk to someone real. >> Yeah, >> cuz then you get a real experience and you feel the energy. Like the like the Amazon comments, that's good, right? The Reddit comments and the whatever reading stuff written by your target audience, that's good. Talking to someone is a total game changer. And um you know, there are some copyrighters

out there who are introverts. I'm sorry, but you have a disadvantage. >> Yeah. you have a massive massive disadvantage. >> If you're extroverted, you you're going To be curious about people understand it's all about it's writing and half of it is understanding people, right? >> Yeah. >> Um so if you can't talk to people, you're going to have a handicap, right? And if you can't talk to people, you also have a handicap in working with business owners because business owners like people that they like. They like working with people that they like, right? >> Of

course. Um, but that that's kind of like a side topic. But yeah, talking to your actual like target audience, it is a game changer. >> But if you could ask just one question to this target audience, what question would it be? >> You know, tell me about your tell me about your painoint. Describe it to me. >> The simplest simplest and >> describe it to me. what you know what's Going on. Tell tell me about your problem. >> That that's uh for most people you ask them to tell tell me about your problem, they have

they will go on for days. They have endless things to say about their problem. >> Well, that that's something interesting because in my experience, it it was actually the contrary. At least here in Brazil, when I talked to someone, for example, a woman that has like she wants To be young again and then I said, "So, how do you feel about that?" and she says, "Ah, I just don't like my wrinkles. I want to be young again." It's like very >> you haven't cracked them open. >> Or maybe you're talking to the wrong person. Some

some people they don't want to share as much. If you if you talk to someone who who wants to share, then they're going to share a lot. >> Yeah. I I don't I don't know if they're Shy or I don't know. But of course, you need to crack them open. And that's something that I think maybe the audience will have a problem with, you know, to just navigating the questions to actually ask the the the good questions that will keep uh that will make the people or make the prospect talk >> and give the good

emotional answers, you know. >> We have um at Paleax, we give gift Cards. We give Amazon gift cards for people to come talk to me. >> So, we say um you know, we're doing a questionnaire. We would love to talk to you about your experience using this product or with this health issue. If you come and um you know share your experience, it'll help us and we'll also we'll give you you know $100 gift card for your troubles and um that is a screening process that automatically it screens for people who want to talk About

the talk about the thing. So you get people who are more talkative. With women and female problems, especially something as >> emotionally charged as skin and appearance with women, they're going to it's going to be harder to crack crack a person open. Like a woman has to trust you to start sharing vulnerable things about like, you know, how she feels about her appearance. >> That's something that's usually reserved For girl time, right? So you have to infiltrate girl time, you know? So that topic is a little harder I would say to crack for to get

someone to share their most vulnerable, you know, things with you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> My my my topic isn't as emotionally charged as a female skin. Mine's health problems and old people. Old people love to share about their their can talk for days about their health problems, right? So it's it's a little bit different. You know, it's like if you're if you're talking to a dude about his dick size, right? Tell me about your dick size problems. They're not going to be you're not you're not going to get the real good stuff from >> Yeah.

They say, "Oh, I don't have this problem." >> Exa Exactly. >> I have the contrary. Mine's too big. >> Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. >> Yeah. So, how how much time do you think that people should spend research the audience? >> Um, I don't have a time limit. I have a how how I feel. >> Got it. If I feel I can I fully understand this person, then I'm good to move on to something else. >> All right. All right. Got it. >> And do do you have some tips that people should like say to themselves, okay,

I already have enough? Like when do you Think that people should stop besides this feeling? Do you have some criteria? >> Because people in the audience, they they will not have like the same feeling that you >> So you have um you have two bars, right? You have your ammunition box and you have your words in the document. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, when you're going through your research process, you're filling your ammunition box. You have ideas. You Oh, I ideas, ideas, ideas. You know, my research document might hit like 80 pages or something. >>

Oh my god. >> Just of just like stuff that I see that I think is interesting. >> And then when I feel like it's overflowing, when I feel like, oh my god, I have so much stuff I don't know what to write about. That's a good point to start writing. So when you start writing and taking the ammunition box And putting it in a words and document then it starts going like this your bar right you start getting more and more words >> and then uh then you take those words then you have to edit

and whatever but um that's the process where I feel like doing more research isn't helping me it's just making my brain already feels full >> full of ideas for this so when it feels full then I need to start writing and Transferring all that into words in a document, you know. >> All right. So, just just to see if I understand, when you feel that you can already write maybe two or three sales letters, then you can actually stop researching because you already have enough material to write like all these sales letters and you just

need to write one. So, >> the you know, are you researching more to procrastinate the writing? >> Yeah, that's a good question. >> That's a good question, right? That's a good question. If you are, then stop. start writing. >> Yeah. >> Right. This is a point where a lot of people are like they they're they have some sort of resistance against the writing and so they're like let me just do more research. Right. I I've had copyrights like that. But like if if you notice That within yourself then it's a problem. You should just start

writing. >> Right. >> Yeah. Go ahead. You know, but if it's if you if you're researching because you don't know something and you want to know that thing to help you write better, then it's a good time to continue researching. >> Got it. So, after the audience, you said that you research the market, right? >> Yeah. >> So, h how do you do that? >> I pretend to be the customer. >> Okay. So, um you know, I pretend to be the customer. I type all the keywords into Google, you know, how to lower my blood

sugar, well, how to um, you know, how to I pretend I'm whoever I am that and I start searching that and I start clicking on things. I start clicking on ads. I start buying things so I get retargeted. I start putting my name on email lists. I start looking at the Upsells. I start acting like my customer. And then you'll you'll get an influx of everything you need. >> But why do you do that? What are you specifically looking for? >> Um well then if I see one ad come up over and over again, I

know that ad's doing well because they're spending a lot of money on it, right? If I see one email or one promotion or one VSSL come up over and over again, then I know it's doing well. And then but I also Understand the search behavior of my of my audience, right? I understand if they're searching, what do they see? What are the marketing hooks I see over and over again? >> Yeah. >> Because because usually, you know, whenever you're writing, you want to be writing, you want to avoid the reaction in your audience. Oh, I've

seen that already. So, you know, to understand that, you have to see what they already See. So, >> Got it. So that that was actually what I was going to ask you because if you see an ad running over and over again, that means that when you're writing your your promotion, you're going to use that ad in your promotion maybe because it's working or you will do something completely different because you just want to be unique. >> So if I see an ad over and over again, Number one, I assume it's doing well, right? Because

>> they're spending a lot of money on it, >> so it must be returning money, right? And then number two, I analyze why is it doing well? Why do I think it's doing well? Right? Is it because this angle or that angle or whatever, right? Then um that angle, I take that angle and I say if that angle is doing really well, how do I do that angle but better? How do I double down on that angle and do it a Little bit different? That's my process. >> What do you mean by double double down

on the angle? Do you mean like adding more proof to make it more believable or can you give me an example? >> Yeah. So, um I one of my promotions that I wrote two or three years ago was for a kitchen knife. It's for a kitchen knife, right? Something you chop in the kitchen. >> So, I had no clue how to sell such a Thing. >> Me neither. >> Yeah. Exactly. So, I went and I looked up all the old infomercials selling kitchen knives, right? And uh guess what they show over and over again? >>

Um >> they show it's a video demonstration. >> Demonstration. Yeah. >> Yes. It's just people chopping things with knives. People chopping hard things With knives. People like a guy tossing a pineapple in the air, slicing in half. Just demonstrations of how sharp and >> Yeah. >> how great this knife is at cooking. Right. And so I was like, "Okay, that's the thing that's working. How do I double down on that?" And so the angle I came to was I wanted um our spokesperson, which was a skinny woman, right? Skinny woman. I wanted her sawing a

steel hammer with a kitchen knife. >> Whoa. >> And the hook in the video was can 120 pound woman saw cut a steel hammer in half with this kitchen knife. And that was >> So that's part an example. I take something that works. How do I, you know, what's the most ridiculous thing I can have someone cut with a kitchen knife? >> Yeah. >> What's What's the most ridiculous thing I can have? Because these people are doing rocks, aluminum cans, paper, right? Can I go more ridiculous than that? >> Ah, got it. Got it. >>

Some one of my students came up with a tank. Like her sitting on a tank and cutting into the metal with a tank and then chopping a tomato like really thin. And I was like, "That's a [ __ ] great idea. That's a great idea." Right. Yeah. Um, >> but you actually you actually you also added like the the skinny woman, right? And that that that's some some sort of an angle too because it says, "Hey, even this woman, this very skinny woman can use this knife." >> That's something more than just like doubling down

on the actual angle because the angle was just to cut stuff. Then you also like you cut heavier stuff, but then you added like these other >> maybe pattern interruption or curiosity elements. >> Good juosition cuz stuff. Yeah. >> Was a chef. It was like an experienced chef. >> Yeah. >> But most of our audience doesn't they don't think of themselves as experienced chef. They think of themselves as beginner chefs. So I wanted a weaklook woman, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But did your thinking was like I will add something in congruent or I

will just add something that looks like the audience >> or maybe >> I wanted I wanted um I wanted the action first cutting the the hammer, right? >> Yeah. >> And then um there's an objection with that, right? Which is like oh They're able to do that because it's not the knife. It's because it's a strong dude doing it. >> Got it. >> So I I already knew that objection was coming. So then I would say, "Okay, well, let me just defeat that objection right up front and just have >> Our spokesperson was a woman,

too. Was a skinny woman." So I was like, "Oh, perfect." You know, >> got it. Yeah. This is harder. You need To be a very good copyriter to do that because you need >> you need to be able to predict you need to predict the objection that's coming, right? That's a key copyriter skill. >> Yeah. If we could like just uh take away two frameworks would be first double down on what is working and then try to predict the objections so you can add it to to your sales message >> because then it will work

even better. >> Yeah. And also when I don't know about You, but when I'm doing my market research, I I want to look at what's working now, just like you said, >> but also not what's working now, but what has worked in the past because >> if like someone I don't know, saw like five years of collagen ads, for example, in the skincare niche. >> Yeah. >> And then they try to make to use that again today, change, chances are it's not going to work because they already Saw that lots of times. Do you have

any specific process to do that? Maybe a place that you go to research or something. >> Yeah. So, um it's good to have a pulse on the current market, >> right? >> But, um if you have a backlog of historical knowledge on hooks that work and hooks that don't work, >> it's good because the market will shift. And so, there are opportunities to bring Back a concept that's already been done if the market hasn't seen that for a while. >> Yeah. If they haven't seen that for a while, then an old hook might still it

would still work, you know, because suddenly it's new again, right? So, it's good to have a pulse on the market. And one of the good things about Swipe.co and old newspaper ads is that those are um the writing is a lot tighter in those ads than a lot of um internet copy Nowadays because the old newspaper ads um are a much higher stakes. Yeah, they had to actually play pay for the real estate, right? >> You have to pay for to print it on a 100,000 newspapers and then if it doesn't convert, you're screwed, right?

You're done. You're put your publisher out of business, right? >> Yeah. >> Way harder than today. >> It's way harder. And so those had to converge. So you can get a lot of good ideas and there are good ideas in in something like as evergreen as health. Health is evergreen, right? So women will always from now until eternity unless they figure out something they will always have um you know facial aging and skin issues. That will always be a market right until women stop having this issue which is not going to happen anytime soon. That

will always be A market. And so um in health it's like that. In in finance it's different, right? In finance it's very seasonal. It's like oh the market's good. Um everyone's hot on crypto. Everyone's hot on weed stocks, right? So, it's different for finance, but in health, it's evergreen. So, things that worked 20 years ago or 10 years ago, as long as the the audience hasn't seen it for a while, I think it's it's good and safe to bring back an old thing that was a Killer, you know. So, >> yeah. >> Yeah. There there

there are some online swipe files that you can find these newspaper ads and other even magalogs, direct mail pieces. Yeah, >> there is one the one that you said I swipe swipe.com, right? >> Swipe.co. S wipe dip.co. Yeah, that's a really good one. >> That's one by my friend Mike Shower. He's a really funny guy. >> Ah, awesome. I Yeah, that headline that I just told you, Atlanta housewife arrested and etc. >> Yeah, >> that's in that swipe file. >> Actually, it will appear on the screen right now. So, if you're watching this, you can

either click uh this is the link that is going to appear and also the the the ad. >> Great. >> And there is also another swipe file Called the ultimate swipe file or add money machine. It's by a guy named Lawrence Bernstein. I don't know if you have heard of it. >> I think it's a I mean it is a paid swipe file. you have to pay to to look at it. But it's the most complete swipe file I think on the internet because Lawrence he actually like like he his his job or passion I

don't know he just keeps collecting ads and he he keeps like updating the the the the ads there Uploading and yeah it's another tip too. >> Do you have other online swipe files that people can search for? I'm looking almost every week at the the Mike Giri email network. So >> I we have meetings every every month to go over what the top promotions are. >> Yeah. >> And um I just open, you know, I'm subscribed to that email list. So every day I'm going to open I'm going to read the email being sent and

I might click And watch the first like three, four minutes of the VSSL. Um, so that's kind of what I'm tuned into right now. >> Got it. Got it. >> All right. So after the research, after you have the audience, after you have the market, then you can use that to create the product if you don't have a product yet >> because you actually know what people want. what kind of mechanism have they they they seen in the past? >> Then you can actually position your offer to make it like way more uh probable to

probably know way more how can I say that >> aligned to the market aligned to what people want. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> And after that what do you do then you you start writing right? >> Yeah. So, um I my writing is uh is very it's in blocks. >> So, my whole VSSL is broken down into I don't know 20 different blocks. >> 20? >> Um >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. So, like each I know the lead I need to hit him with the hook and then hit him with open loops and then what's

called the central thesis of your VSSL. The central thesis is the I would say one one line, right? You can think of some people call it the mechanism, right? >> Um one logic point that you need the person to digest to absorb >> to buy your product, >> right? >> That's really cool, man. Where where have you learned that? Because my process is just like that, too. >> Um well, great minds think alike. You know, my process has been just developing over the last nine years. Um the central thesis thing isn't mine that's um Ryan

Kowalsski and um he is Another you know one of the best VSSL writers that's very quiet that doesn't you know do a whole lot of publicity. >> Yeah I don't know him. >> So he's behind um do you know the offer Emma? It's like a gut supplement. >> Yeah. Yeah. They they were actually testing Verb right now. They were using Wistia. They're testing us. >> So he's the guy that wrote that. Ah. Oh, cool. >> Yeah. So, he he came up with that uh the Central thesis thing which I think is really brilliant. Um and

>> to be honest, I think there's a guy that I I don't know if I'm being like stupid or something, but I think that the original guy that came up with this was Clayton Makepiece and he has a book called Quick Start Copyrightiting System. You're probably familiar with that, right? >> Okay. And yeah in the chapter eight it's Called the ABC process that makes your copy invincible. And then in in this chapter he outlines how how he writes the middle of the copy. And then he says that you need to convince people of only one

thing. >> Yes thing is what make people to buy. And then you start the argument with something that they already believe or that you can prove without a shadow of of doubt. >> And then you just like keep adding like Logic points to your argument. Yeah. until people are convinced of this uh belief. When they're convinced of this belief, then you can you can present the offer. And the belief is usually like this. If you do this something, if you do this specific action, you will get what you want. And the only way to do

that is by using this unique mechanism. >> Yes. >> And yeah, at least that's when when I first saw it in the first place. But Maybe this guy he he got it from I don't know if if he thought about it or if he got it from Clayton and then added his thing and then you know started telling people about it. I don't know. >> Yeah. Um yep. I I would agree. Um, I did an avocado oil promotion um, two or three years ago and um, it did really well and the one point I needed

to convince people was that if your cooking oil is yellow, it's rancid and um, giving you all sorts of health problems. It's spoiled and rancid. >> So, because our cooking oil was green. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so, I had to convince people >> that that was the whole point of the entire thing is the cooking oil you're using is rancid. the oil that's sitting in your kitchen is disgusting, you know, is is what I wanted to convince. So, >> but this thing you you actually need to find that in the research phase, right? Because at

the end of the day, your Product needs to deliver on this belief, right? >> Otherwise Yeah. >> Yep. Exactly. So once I have the hook, the hook isn't really as important as the central thesis, right? So once I the central thesis I'm like okay I I have that something I feel really good about. >> Um I can just leave the hook or the lead empty write the the the 90% of the VSSL and then I and then I write eight different leads. We usually launch with Eight different leads because um the lead is so one

page of copy can determine whether the thing's a a a bomb or just the best promotion of the year, right? >> Yeah. It's crazy. So, it's it's crazy to me um cuz we've had, you know, one page of copy, it could be 10 lines of copy changes whether it's a complete flop or whether it's the best promotion of the year. We've we've seen that with testing. So, I mean, that's still crazy To me. >> Um, so I'll leave the hook and the lead open, the first, you know, 500 words, write the other 90% of the

VSSL. The hard part is mostly like from 20 from from like 10% to 50%. Everything after the product reveal is pretty formulaic. It's the same. Yeah. >> Right. It's like, you know, you make your USP claim, then your benefits, then your proof, then your features, then Your guarantee, then your scarcity, then your urgency. It's just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It's like a checklist, right? But from 20 10% after your hook to 50% to the product reveal, that's like the hardest part to get right. And then the first 10% that's sell all your hooks.

That's like how good are your hooks? Did you go out there and look at all the YouTube and and think about it and come up with the best hooks? Um, and so, you know, once I have The central mechanism, I just go through and I fill out my sections. It's it's pretty like modular. It's like this section then this section credibility section then this section and I just try to do every section as improve upon the old copy as you know as possible. Yeah. >> Have you found uh differences in testing the the the actual

close of the VSSL? Because I know that it it usually comes down to just following a checklist. they Need to say this and that and everything. But sometimes, I don't know if you tested that, but here in Brazil, people test it a lot and then they they add lots of things into it. They change, for example, the guarantee comes before the price review or after the price review. >> So they they test Yeah, they they test that kind of stuff. >> What did you guys find? >> So crazy enough, man. Crazy enough, it It has

almost almost the same impact of the lead. So, if you never tested the closes, yeah, I I I really recommend people test the the the closing section >> because that's when you actually seal the deal, right? There's a copyriter here in Brazil, his name is Derek. He's a really good copyriter. He wrote that offer on by goods called Liposen from for weight loss. >> Okay. >> I think he's the top weight loss offer In the world right now, I think. So, I don't know. >> Oh, interesting. Okay. >> Yeah. And he tested like five closes.

So ju just like people test leads here in Brazil, we test leads and we also test closes. And these two sections of the copy, >> they they they make a lot of difference. And and actually even Stefan, he has that thing, it's called uh >> the AOV close. >> Yeah, AOV close. So So we have more frameworks just like the OV close which helps to increase the OV. There are other frameworks for example uh in the the frequent asked questions the last section of of the of the VSSL people usually say hey when can I

get my when will my product arrive and another question is how how long will it take for for uh seeing results then he changes this question to >> uh if I drop way too fast what what Should I do >> yeah You do the same thing, but the the frequently asked questions is not frequently asked questions. It's another opportunity to go through the sales argument >> to sell again. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, he does all of these things in the close and it usually like helps increase conversions, but they test it a lot,

too. But okay. So so the first thing that you write from from what I understand from your process is this uh is the mechanism part part right where you present your central thesis. >> Yeah. >> And do do you have any framework to do that? How do you actually like structure everything? Do you have like some I don't know u number of proof elements that you usually use? Maybe I don't know one claim, three proof elements, then Another claim proof element. >> That's just different with every it's different with every promotion. >> Yeah. >> Um

if I have a really powerful proof element, I will base the promotion around that. Um if I don't then I have to go about it a different way. Um we have been the last uh promo that I wrote that did really well. It hit it hit one of the top spots in um the Giri network And we're going to be launching on paid right after the new year. Um that uh promo I didn't make any direct claims in. M >> so it was a you know I'm starting to like break the rules of classic copy

which is like it's always like big bold claim right >> well you know in the US it's compliance is getting to a point where if you make big bold claims it actually it's harder to get it to work on paid traffic and Other areas. So, you know, this past year, we're kind of innovating in our in our little ecosystem on how to get VSSLs to convert without making direct claims. And um we've cracked the code because we've had a VSSL do really well without direct claims. So, um you know, it's an ever changing and evolving

thing. >> Yeah. >> Um and so it's my process for the middle section. I can't give you a concrete answer because it's different with every Promotion. >> Got it. Got it. >> Yeah. >> What I usually do is I just present what people have to do. For example, after the credibility section, I said, "Hey, so what I find out is that the secret secret to decreasing your your blood sugar or whatever is to do X like to to fight to remove this thing from your body or to use this or to do something." Then I

usually like write three or four Proof elements over there. Usually different ones like a scientific discovery, maybe a demonstration. >> Yeah. >> And after I say so that's why you did not get results in the past >> because you were not like doing that specific action. >> Usually in health offers is to solve like the root cause of the problem, right? >> But when when we are like writing Financial offers, there's usually not a root cause. So what they have to do is like to grab an opportunity >> opportunity. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> So

then I say that's why you you that's why you make a lot of money right now because that's the first time this opportunity is happening whatever. >> And then after this section then I have the other section which is like the mechanism of the solution. Let's say When I say how how to actually do that thing that I just say that he needs to do and then I I say okay so to do this thing what you need to do is this. Here's proof element one, two, three. Then if the proof elements are okay, I

assume that people will believe the thesis, then I'm ready to transition to the offer. >> So it's it's some sort of template that I use. So here's what you need to do. Three proof proof elements, why it Didn't work in the past. >> Then how to do it. Three proof proof elements. It's not that's why why I told you that I'm not the best copyriter in the world. I'm actually an engineer. So I really like, you know, systems and everything. >> So yeah, but it works. I mean I >> that sounds like the the same

sort of like template I would use like that sounds very similar to my process. Um if I make a statement right one powerful Statement in health it's usually >> you you have this problem because this thing specific thing about your body is broken in some way your liver is clogged or your kidneys are yellow or your this is you know that one thing that's the central thesis right your blood sugar is high because your blood is too hot you know whatever the the one like thing about your body is is wrong right that that would

be the mechanism the problem and uh You know you say you're talking about following up with your proof elements. I do the same thing and it really just depends on like I have one if if it's one module and I'm like okay what's the proof point I want to get across? What's the logic point I want to get across in this one section, right? And then how believable is this? If it's not believable, if I'm if I'm moving them past a belief barrier, then I need proof. So then I need to drop proof. And Then

how strong is my proof? If if they get through my statement and the proof, is it undeniable? Can they argue with me at all? >> Yeah. >> Right. Or is it just they have to accept this this proof point? Right. If they have to accept this proof, I'm like, "Okay, I don't need any more proof. Let's move on to the next logic point." >> Yeah. >> So that's kind of how my brain thinks. It sounds very similar to your process which is very like it's systems oriented. Yeah. >> Yeah. Uh for sure 100%. And I

actually I find it really interesting that you use this term logic point. Where have you heard this this term man logic point? It was from you don't know because that that's crazy. I thought that I had created that. I I actually I have a copyrighting curse here in Brazil. >> Uhhuh. >> And and I use exactly this term. I say here are you need to build your logic points. >> Yeah, it's a logic skeleton. >> Yeah, that's that's really interesting. Really cool. >> Yeah. So my mentor um he told me logic is the skeleton, emotion

is the blood and guts. >> So I think of the VSSL as a logic skeleton. Logic point to logic point to Logic point to logic point all the way down to Yeah. >> Yeah. So after you write like this argument this section then you then you you actually I don't know you but I I I uh create a close the the product reveal the transition everything very formulaic you just follow some steps and then there are only two sections lacking right the credibility section where you tell your story and everything and then the lead where

you actually sell people Into watching the the VSSL. So the the the credibility section, >> do you think there are some important things over there? Because to me it's very formulaic too and but I don't know if there's something that you you try to add there to make it better. >> Um when we started doing health supplements, I told my boss I wanted a doctor. I wanted a white old guy in a white lab coat with a stethoscope >> and um you know get get me a doctor. get Me a doctor that I can put

on the screen because uh >> you know I think that makes a difference. I think people want to hear from someone with credibility. Um and that's part of the reason why Golden Hippo I think does so well because they have such a good doctor and a charismatic doctor appearing on video. You know Steven Gundry and uh >> they're really big in the States. >> Um >> No, I know him. Of course I know Craig. I'm actually I'm going to interview Craig too here in the podcast. >> Oh cool. >> Yeah, that's awesome. Um, yeah. So,

the, uh, you know, it all depends on what's in your ammunition box, right? If you have a great doctor, then I'm going to deploy that. I'm going to try to leverage that as as much as possible. If I don't have that, then I'm going to see what else I Have. Right? >> So, there's some promotions where I don't have a great credibility person, right? So I have to rely on something else like video demonstration or or whatever. If the guru is not as important and if if I don't have that then the guru is important.

I'm I'm try to just get whatever assets I can. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> So for example the thyroid letter we Don't have a a doctor there the thyroid supplement but one of the common experiences in women with thyroid problems is that their doctor tells them their thyroid levels are normal but then they don't feel well. So there's a bit of like um making the the doctor the enemy. >> Yeah. >> In in in the uh in the VSSL and we have a female nutritionist instead as the >> as the credibility person. Yes. So >>

got it. >> Yeah. So does did I answer the question? I don't even remember what the question was. >> Yeah. No, of course I I asked about the importance of the credibility section. >> You know, uh here in Brazil, people used to run offers here and they made a lot of money. Actually, that's what I did. That's how I I I made my living for the first seven years of my career. >> But in the past year, lots of Brazilians Are starting their companies in the United States. And yeah, they're doing that because the currency,

the the dollar is way stronger than the Brazilian HA, which is our currency. >> Okay. Yeah. >> And Yeah. And they are making a lot of money. Some some people are selling like 200,000 per day, $100,000 per day. >> And these are like some crazy crazy crazy numbers in Brazil. Like it's Almost unbeliev Unbelievable. >> And >> it's crazy. Yeah. Like it's so so so much money when it comes to to Brazilian standards. >> Okay. >> They're getting like filthy rich. >> Okay. Great. >> Yeah. To to me it's good too because they're my clients.

So at the end of the day, they end up paying me too. But the ones that are really making money are The payment processing companies. But whatever. >> Um, everybody's making a lot of money. There's the payment processor making a lot of money. We make the uh the suppliers, the people like >> ship offers or you know, whoever's creating our supplements, they make a ton of money. Marapost makes a ton of money, you know, the email. Everybody's making money off this thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. But what they do is that They they they're not good

at copyrightiting. They they don't know a lot about copyrightiting >> but they know a lot about operations. So what they do is that they see what kind of copy is working in the United States. >> Then they create some sort of mediocre copy, a copy that is, you know, more or less not not not bad but not stellar also. >> And then they spend like $30,000 US in the production of the VSSL. So they hire Like seven people, they hire a big studio and then create like almost this movie, this documentary. >> Yeah. >> And

I I think that's the advantage of the Brazilians that are running offers in the United States is just increasing the production level and making making the VSSL look like a movie, a documentary, that kind of stuff. >> Everybody has like a little secret weapon. >> Yeah. >> You know, like high production value is is a great weapon to use. Um, you know, Golden Hippo, one thing that most people don't know is one of their secret weapons is they own the vertical. So, they don't use ship offers or whatever. They own the manufacturing. So, their cost

of goods are way cheaper. >> So, you know, there's a lot of ways to play the game with little advantages or even big advantages that people don't See. >> Yeah, that's a nice mode. Yeah. >> Yeah. But this thing it's amazing because uh the the difference in conversions sometimes is like 100% 150%. Just by increasing the production level. So if you have a copy that is working is selling. One of the easiest levers that you can pull to increase your your revenue, your sales, your conversions is just increase the production value. And it's not that

Hard. You know, you just pay, you get people in the studio, you create the the VSSL. It takes maybe one day and then that's it. Then you can run run your your VSSL. So yeah, I just wanted to to give this tip because we're talking about this. >> Yeah. Great. >> But after the the story, then you write the lead, right? >> Yeah. I write eight different leads. Usually the one that crushes is not the One I predict. >> Yeah. It's always like that. Yeah. >> Yeah. Sometimes I'm like so certain I'm like, "Oh man,

this thing's going to this one's going to crush." And then for the last couple times that one flopped and another one I didn't expect just absolutely crushed. So I I think of it as like eight different swings. Um, and you know, I try to make the the 90% of the VSSL as good as I can. And then the Eight swings are just eight different tries, you know? And uh >> yeah, >> it I I I it I just feels dangerous to me to go down to four cuz you could literally have all it takes is

one. All it takes is one lead out of eight to do really really well to have just an enormous promotion. And if you test four, what if you miss that one? You know, like if you miss that one, you could you you spent 30K on A copywriter, then you spent 30K on a video guy, and then you spent all this time and effort to create a VSSL, >> and then it flops. >> Yeah. >> Right. And uh I just want a little bit more like insurance is is kind of like my my feel. So if

I if I could do 12 >> and they could test 12 and like >> then I would still I would do 12. >> You do it? Yeah. >> Yeah. But they they only have certain uh so many slots in email to test and then 12 puts more pressure on the video guy to create four more videos. So it's a balance of like you know what I want to do in the operations. >> Got it. But how how do you find these angles man? Because I don't know about you but I think that the lead is

usually like it comes from the the the mechanism because the lead is just like a trailer or just a preview of the VSSL, right? So You just say, "Hey, in this video you're going to to see this." So there's just enough ways that you can talk about the mechanism or do you have like completely indirect leads that you can talk about something else and then transition to the actual mechanism? >> I don't think of the leads like the the leads or the hooks in the opening totally separate from the mechanism. >> That's interesting. >> Yeah.

I don't think together. >> Yeah. So, um, so, uh, one of my the promo that is doing really well right now is for an omega-3 product. And the central thesis is that there's a missing omega. Most people think omega-3s. They think um, EPA and DHA, which are the two omega-3s, but they discovered a third omega that's eight times more powerful. The science says it's eight times more powerful and it's actually the ones that's responsible for all the health benefits That they thought the the two traditional ones gave. >> Yeah. >> Right. So there's a missing

omega, right? That's only one open loop in the lead. The open the lead that one that we have is about cold feet. If you have cold feet, it's a sign that your heart is starving for oxygen or something. So it's like if you have X symptom then it's a sign that X part of your body is broken. >> Got it? >> That's a lead that one. >> Then later you say uh this part of your body is broken because you don't have like this omega3 this new omega3. Ah got it. >> Well well we say

you know like um it goes into heart heart problems right? Why why are is heart stuff so uh so widespread? It kills more people than cancer, suicide, car accidents combined. I show a big graph that shows Like how, you know, so if you have blank blank blank, you know, symptom identifier, identify identifier. Then I'm going to tell you the number one thing you can do. You know, I'm a I'm a heart doctor that used to work for NASA. That's that's a spokesperson. Um >> I'm g tell you you know what the my number one tip

for a healthy heart and the number one thing number one food item you should be eating or something you know something like that and it's Not fish you know so you know I I drop some open loops and then I go into education about like um I point at uh a clotting factor I call clotting factor 7. So, it's it's it's not because you your heart attacks and blood clots and whatever, they don't happen because of cholesterol or this or the the stuff that you think you eating too much red meat or sugar or sodium

or whatever it is. It's because of this new thing that you never heard about. >> Got it. >> Proof proof. Okay. How do you get rid of this? Right. Well, there's one thing that powers your natural artery flushing system. Then I transition to omega. >> Got it. >> Your doctor's probably told you to take omega-3s all the time. Then why aren't you why isn't your heart healthy? Oh, well, it's because he didn't know, you know, the omega that you actually need is this missing omega that most People don't get. You don't get this from your

normal fish oil pill. You don't get it from krill oil. You can only get it from me. >> Yeah. So, in this example, we have like two kinds of leads. We have this symptom lead. Let's say if you have this thing. >> Yeah. >> And >> so symptom stuff is um I have found to be way more uh important in health than I than I Used to think. >> So we do a lot of symptom stuff, especially specific and visual symptom stuff. Do your eyebrows look like this? Show a picture. It means your thyroid's low.

>> Yeah. So, like we we do a lot of symptom stuff because I think that's what you know. So, if I can't make strong claims, I like symptom identifiers. If you're something specific, if you have cold Feet, if you have if your eyebrows look like this, if you have cold, if you have dry skin on your fingers or if you have something specific, it doesn't matter. Whatever it is, >> then it means blank. Something >> inside you is broken. You know, I make a statement and or I do a command, right? If you have a

low thyroid, right, symptom identifier, the number one food you should be eating is blank or you should stop, you should Avoid salads or kale at all costs, right? So, I it's either a statement about something inside you that's broken, or it's a command. >> Yeah. >> Stop brushing your teeth like this or, you know, whatever whatever it is. Usually a lot of my hooks are have been in that format the past like six months. >> Got it. That's awesome. And do do you have like other kinds of goto hooks that You usually use because >>

for health or >> Yeah. For for your VSSL for your health vsls. Yeah. Because you said that you usually test eight leads, right? So >> yeah, >> I I bet some of them are like some some leads that you always use like the symptom symptoms symptoms one >> and there are other some like new leads that you discover in your research phase, right? >> Yeah. So in the research phase I build up the ammunition box, right? And I have four or five different angles that I'm like I see over and over again, right? >> Yeah.

>> And so I I'll just each of those angles I'll be like, okay, this is a symptom one. I'll I'll do two symptom ones. Yeah. >> Right. And then another one might be different. It might be a testimonial lead or like a proof element lead. Then I'll do another lead like that. And so I'll go through my four or five different hook ideas or categories and I'll just fill them out with >> Got it. One kind of lead that people use a lot here in Brazil, I call it the I don't know, maybe discover lead

or something where we say that there was this new discovery that people find out the root cause of X and then if you watch the video, you'll find out about it. >> Yeah. So I might do like, you know, two of those. >> Yeah. >> So it's Yeah. So then I just try to fill out eight. So eight eight good swings. >> Yeah. Do you think that it's better to have like completely different angles or maybe one angle that you will write in lots of ways? >> It depends. It depends on how confident I am

about the the category, right? So, for example, the knives, literally all The angles I saw were video demonstration. So, I would if I were to test eight leads or that again, six of them would probably be video demonstration and then two I could maybe try something out of left field. But I'll very rarely try something that I'm not that is like out of left field that's just com like purely creative, you know? >> Yeah. >> Almost every lead is like I saw that and I think that's working really well. Let me do two variations of

that. two variations where I double down on that. So that's kind of that's that's my process there. >> Yeah. Got it. Ning, >> thank you so much for talking about your process and I I think I I'm going to finish the podcast. >> So what do you think about it? Did you like it? >> Uh yeah, it was wonderful. Um it's >> it was fun. It was fun to chat about, you know, copywriting with uh with other copywriters and because, you know, it's like a little bubble and uh you know, when I was in Copy

Accelerator and um more connected to the industry, >> uh you know, it was fun to chat with a lot of people and just kind of meet like-minded people. In the past year or so, I've been much more like in my own bubble, just in the paleo hacks, the health industry sphere, and just kind of Heads down doing my own thing. So, >> yeah, >> it's been nice to kind of step outside and just um you know, chat chat about copy. Yeah. >> Yeah, it was amazing. And one thing that I found really interesting is that

uh you said, right, that you don't have nothing to to to sell. And usually when people come here in the in the Victor podcast, they usually have some sort of of mentorship or or something. So yeah, So thank you so much for just coming here and giving content, providing value value to the audience. That that's amazing. >> Yeah, I um if this was a year ago, I would say go join my email list. But I've retired from coaching. >> Yeah. >> Um because I'm making too much money from just writing copy. >> Yeah, that that's

awesome. That proves that you are a real copyriter, right? But also, if you don't mind, okay, could you please just tell people how they can get get to to your email list or can get more information about you? Because maybe right now you're not selling anything, but maybe in the future you will and then you you still have this audience, right, that you will you'll maybe be able to send message or provide value to them. Um, if you are a copywriter looking for tips on Copywriting stuff, um, do not email me. I will not respond.

I get too many of those. So, >> yeah, >> I have retired from copy coaching. So, I cannot and I'm sorry. Um and uh I purposely I have not given you know my best secrets in this podcast because I still want to keep my >> to use them >> competitive advantage right. >> Yeah. >> So I've given tips that um hopefully will help but um my best secrets I've all just kept >> um just for you know me and Paleo hacks. Um, if you are a business owner who wants to work with me, um, I

you you can send me an email at ningwordsfordddolls.com. I will very likely not be able to work with you. Um, because I'm full-time with PaleoHacks and they pay me an absurd amount of money. Um, So yeah, I'm doing this purely out of like if you have something interesting to share with me, you know, make sure that subject line looks cool and then maybe I'll open. >> Yeah. Use the content to create good copy so you can get Ning's attention. >> Yeah. And uh maybe I'll see you at a future conference or something and just chat.

Um >> Yeah. So Ningwordsfordd dollars.com is Um spelled out ws f o r d o l l a rswordsford dollars.com email address. >> Yep. And if you want to email me about something um please make it interesting. If it's like please please please help me then um I will not respond. Um I'm sorry. I cannot help you unless you help yourself. >> Yeah, of course. And then for for the last thing that I want to to do here at the podcast, I just wanted to give you Uh the the word, man, the mic. So you

could you could just say whatever you want. Send a message to the audience. You can, I don't know, give some advice or tell them to do something. >> Is the audience um mostly copyriters or business owners or direct response marketers or just mixture of? >> It's a mixture of everything. Yeah, there are people that are doing product launches using like the Jeff Walker formula, people that are selling high Ticket coaching programs and you know, a little bit of everything. >> Yeah. So, that's great. You know, um copyrighting, I'm very grateful for copyrighting because it's uh

it's changed my life, you know. Um I I don't work more than two to three hours a day. I have a newborn son. Um, and so copyright has allowed me to just make a lot of money doing a little bit of work. With just one skill, you can My whole life is scaled off of one skill. That's crazy, you know, crazy. >> And I, yeah, nine years ago, I wouldn't have thought that was possible. >> And so, you know, if I had one message out there to to people listening, it's that if you want to

make a lot of money and if you want to scale, play this entrepreneur game or marketing game, um, it's 100% possible. Right? When I started out, it was I didn't know whether it was real or not. Um, I didn't know whether it was a a fairy tale and Like it was just people in on my screen saying things. I didn't know whether it was real or not. But, um, you know, when when the money first hit my bank account, I was like, "Okay, I guess this is somewhat real, even though it's just, >> you know,

it's someone I've never met sending me money, right?" So, um I want to let you know that it's it's 100% real and that you can do it. Um this is one step at a time and but But it all comes down to how much action you take. So, um you have to balance with how much knowledge you absorb. So, a lot of people like reading books or whatever, but the real the real barometer of how far you go is how much action you take. It's not how much knowledge you consume, right? So one one pound

of action is worth 10 pounds of knowledge consumption, right? So um doing stuff, especially stuff that You have resistance against doing. Like if you do that, then you'll go far, right? Um, in all my years of coaching, you know, copyriters and business owners, uh, I've I've noticed a pattern that like the people that I I can usually predict within a minute or two of talking to them how far they're going to go, right? And, uh, believe it or not, most of the people that go very far are ex sports athletes, okay? Because they understand that

Action equals output, right? So how much action you take equals how much you progress. >> So I would say the same thing kind of transfers in in copywriting and it's like um pursue your dreams and they're 100% possible. You just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Um when I started everybody told me it was a bad idea. I should stick with graduate school. I should stick with blah blah blah. But you know those people aren't Me and they're not living my life, right? So >> this is your life, right? If you have

a dream, absolutely go after it. you. That's what you're here on earth to do. If you don't do that, you're gonna look back when you're 80 years old and you're gonna be like, "Why the [ __ ] didn't I do that?" So, you know, go after what you want, guys. That's that's my message. >> That's a great message, man. Thanks for that. >> So, this was another video podcast and thanks for listening. Foreign