Curriculum - Improve Zillow

But what I would like to ask you is the question of how would you improve Zillow? >> To me Zillow would be one of those top real estate marketplaces. It is strong in discovery.

I would say top of the funnel awareness and lead genen for agents and mortgage products as well. Uh I think that with the number of competitors in the space uh it has a lot of challenges. I would say um low conversions from browsing to lead simulation.

I think there's some challenges with their limited personalization in the home search experience. I think just the competition like I mentioned earlier from the for rent and for sale marketplaces like realtor, red finomes. com.

Um and then I think that in my usage of Zillow uh the frag there's an exper there's a fragmentation of the experience between rentals buying and the financing of products and >> absolutely. >> Yeah. So if if the question is how I would improve Zillow, I think that being in growth product management, I would focus on improving the user engagement and the conversion across the funnel.

Particularly top of the funnel where we try to connect with the user in the dreaming part of living in some place and then theing if this is that place and then the contact in connection of of the of of the the renter or the buyer to the leasing agent or the realtor. >> That that sounds good. I actually really love you know the emotional connection that you try trying to build you know with a customer itself where they get to choose the place and actually you know um think about how they're going to move in or how they have it in their dreams.

So yeah I I like the approach. Let's move forward. You know I think we narrowed down the question a little bit for top of the funnel itself.

>> So yeah let's proceed further at this point. Okay, if you're interested, I think that there's a couple of needs and a couple of users in that I have in mind that would be that where we have opportunities in improving Zillow. Okay, so >> that ties into a couple of things that I mentioned above.

>> I think that uh there's always that fragmented experience for first-time buyers. I think they're with so many different marketplaces, so many different services and apps. They're overwhelmed by options.

Uh they need they need guidance. They need handholding and they need to understand affordability especially in today's age, right? It's very important to not be in debt while trying to buy or rent something.

Mhm. >> I think there's another persona that I have in mind and that would be uh people who are moving up or trading up. You know, I would call them let's say move up buyers or move up sellers, people who want to flip, right?

So, >> think that they want tools to evaluate uh their current home, their equity, and the buyell process. They're trying to explore that and um I think renters I think there's also an opportunity there. They want fast search.

They they want to trust the listing and the price that they see and what they see in the experience on the listing cards, right? So, uh they want insights to where they're going to be trying to rent. So, >> do they to rent?

Do they want to buy? I think all of those three have three different intents. So improving Zillow across the three, I'll leave it up to you which interests you at this point.

>> Uh I think you know if we're focusing on uh the top of the funnel itself, um I would like you to uh dive deeper perhaps you know and prioritize one of the segments and maybe give me a rationale. Why would you choose one over another? I would say that that would be, you know, a great approach to tackle this.

>> Okay. I would focus on the first-time buyers just because I knew how difficult it was for me when I was starting my family uh looking for a place that we could we could buy thinking a few steps ahead when when our daughter came around. We wanted to make sure that we are attached to the community with livable spaces and also good school district.

So, that's what I would focus on. >> Okay. Okay.

Um, yeah, that that sounds good. Let's focus on the firsttime buyers at this point. >> And let's dive deeper into this.

I'm excited to hear what you have to say. >> So, I was thinking about, let's say, personas, right? Customers who would be first-time buyers and the type of customers within that segment.

I was thinking about Chris. He is money. He is graduating from high school, moving to college, and Oh, no, no, no, hold on.

I would say Chris uh young family just reminded about myself expecting and would want to move into an area with a good school district. Keep it simple. Um, the next one would be a young couple, Jane and Mark.

Uh, no kids, but they want to always be active and surrounded by trails and shops, right? Uh, third one I can think about is uh Ramon. He is uh a techie at heart.

Made money in the valley, no family, but wants to buy his first property. Okay. So, um, these are kind of the three, uh, the three I customers I'm thinking of within that first time with the first time buyer segment.

>> Which one do you think is interesting to you? >> Uh, I think there are a couple of them. They're interesting.

Um, you know, I can also see, uh, you know, some of those segments and, you know, kind of apply the framework of Deb here. I can see you doing that and the motivation that they have. Uh I would probably uh and let's have a discussion around this.

Right. We have uh Chris who has a young family and expecting want to move to another area with a good school district. We have Jane and Mark no kids but they want to be always acting surrounded by trades and shops.

Uh what do you think? You know I have a follow-up question here. uh like if you look at those categories uh do you think they're more like planners uh when you know they're trying to maybe compare something or they're maybe uh deciders that they're ready to buy you know and they're like scheduling tours at this point which one you know which behavior do they exhibit exhibit at this point >> that's a really good question I think we could bucket them all into planners at this stage of when they're looking around.

They're probably ready to buy. Um, and they're just looking around that could satisfy and check certain boxes requirements that they're looking for. I would say that the planner, especially with that young family, um, Jane and Mark say same thing, no kids, but they want to be active.

their planners, but I think since real estate is always going to be that emotional buy, >> it comes down to price and and yeah, if it checks down, you know, it checks what they're looking for. >> I hope did I okay answer your question? >> Uh yeah, I think that that answers my question well.

I think Raone definitely falls maybe into, you know, the decider uh since he has money right now and he just wants to go ahead and buy his first property at this point. But let's pick one of them. I want to really like focus on one segment at this point and if you can pick one and like prioritize them and give me the rational of why you have picked them or the other.

I think what we would what I like to hear as well is how would you tie back to the original question and the metric you know that we have uh come up with which is like increase top of the funnel itself >> top of the funnel itself right >> correct >> so the question the the the one thing that's interesting here I would pick I would still pick Chris because it resonates with me I remember a time when I was starting my own family comes down to first-time buyers and it resonates with top of the top of the funnel traffic because um even though birth rates are low in the United States right now, there are efforts to improve uh improve that metric in the in the country and as first time and it's always been the American dream for someone to own their property especially young families. So I think over time as more government programs are being introduced to improve um to improve birth rates but also give incentives to first-time home buyers uh with with uh with the with the federal government as well as improve b uh improve you know our birth rates right I think this is something that can resonate and would be some would be I would say a good mission for Zillow to to provide that type of experience for this segment of users. >> Okay.

So, we're going uh with Chris at this point. That that sounds good. That sounds good.

Uh then let's proceed further. You know, since we have picked, you know, young family that is expecting uh to move into the area. uh let's dive deeper into this and you know maybe come up with some of the pain points that uh he might be challenged with you know when it comes to actually you know discovering you know his first home and actually to buy >> correct right >> I think let's let's I would say let's take a look at what they would need right so let I'm just going to write >> let's say what they would need and since we picked Chris right I'm just going to highlight that real quick.

All right. What they would need for somebody in in in in in this situation in life, this stage of life, right? For this, I could come up with a couple of things.

I think what would be interesting is something like um buy your discovery funnel. >> Now, this is this is more this is more of an experience when they land in I in in the web, not the app, but on the web, right? So what this is is >> um understanding buy buyer discovery but uh providing a guided experience you know you've been how frustrating it is sometimes you go to Zillow you look you know they don't know who you are as a customer you're just >> free flow you know navigate the filters search on our site search for city and such it could be overwhelming for a user but what if you provided or you you will be providing a guided experience for um for uh for this type of user segment you know young families right providing provide a guided experience for young families right that's one um >> I can think of another thing that they would need is what's interesting nowadays is that the start the start of any commercial search unless you have very strong brand really starts with a search engine right so when you start searching for proper properties that you want to buy, you you really start with a Google search and if the next thing that's best thing would be a Bing search.

So um how uh I would say um um user uh user search capture on su user user capture uh consumer intent capture capturing capturing consumer intent on search would be something that I think that they would need right when they search for something. Zillow is top of the funnel, top of mind. How do we get that?

>> So, >> this is basically the CEO search, right? The search engine optimization. >> Yeah, something like that.

But I'm thinking a little bit deeper. Um, especially when it comes to the integration of of plugins and you know kind of you kind of see where I'm going with this, but either or we can we can try to discover that together. What would be interesting to do?

>> Okay. Okay. That makes sense.

Um, do you have any other pain points in mind so far? >> I think needs >> I think the the the um I think I think this is it. I think the pain points would be pain point would be always be um over they would get overwhelmed with options, right?

I think that would always be a pain point for everybody especially buying buying their house for the first time factoring their situation and their status in life their budget and such I think that would be one of the pain points for any type of user segment not just this segment but we're trying to help yeah that's this is what we're trying to help them with >> correct uh and this one makes sense but I would like to narrow it down you know and be a little bit more specific you know I can definitely see since you Chris, you know, our uh customer segment that we picked, he might feel, for example, you know, bad, you know, for the deal, you know, when he's trying to plan it or defined it, you know, uh you mentioned something which is I really like, which is him wanting guidance, you know, and this like personalization when it comes to the experience and um I think there's also a lot of pressure around the budget, you know, as a firsttime, you know, home buyer. I think you know when you comparing you know the mortgage rates when maybe you try to buy all cash which is really rare in the US you know but uh yeah uh if you have anything else in mind I think this this ones you know is something that overwhelms our uh user >> persona it is something that can be overwhelming and there's something that we can discover together that we can try to tie that in and help them with this particular new experience right so yeah Yeah. All righty.

Uh, that makes sense. Um, what I would what I would think of right now is um, you know, if we were to ideally put this in a customer journey map, right? >> Yeah.

>> Let's let's let's try to, you know, if let's just go through the exercise of taking a look what that looks like because we're definitely dealing with top of the funnel, right? So typical customer journey map would be recognition of needs and this type comes into what you you mentioned earlier right budget right and >> you know if there is budget there's definitely tie into a loan especially if they you know if if they're first-time home buyers what kind of what kind of programs are there that that that can help them uh buy your first home right >> recogn And um uh the buyer the the buyer as a buyer Chris >> Mhm. >> we're talking about buyers here.

Um there's just a range buyer recognizes the range of solutions and options. >> Mhm. >> Right.

And then what I would say the next step of this is before even getting to looking at Google, looking for home or going to directly to Z to to Zillow, they have to evaluate those options. And just for the sake of time, I'm just going to because there's other things that factor into each and every one of these customer journeys. Um I think we need to res uh there's a resolution resolution of those concerns and then after after that this is the only time they go and search and which is implementation I I would just call implementation for now.

>> So >> okay >> this is kind of the journey that I see. What do you think? uh I think I can follow your thought process uh at this point where like in my view recognition is fairly similar and correct me if I'm wrong was the discovery itself right uh like you you have some kind of need as a customer you go ahead and you try to do your kind of like research right based on your needs >> uh then um then there's a capture of intent and interest itself you're going into the website you're you know clicking some kind of link then you're trying to explore or uh you know what the deal is you know or what is that something that you're trying to find as well and um what do you think you know I have kind of here a follow-up question if we break it down into uh you know your user journey which is recognition evaluating those options you know that's where they they're doing the action uh you know and they clicked on the link and then they're doing the resolution where do you think we should focus you know if we're thinking about the top of the funnel you know what do you think uh we should actually hover in here and maybe um you know what are the other bullet points that we should rather not talk about at this point.

>> Okay. I think um what keeps on resonating with me as I as we lay down the the user journey and the the understanding of their needs and the pain points, I think it still comes down to helping them navigate those, right? So, uh there's the problem, there's the opportunity, we have the inventory at Zillow.

How do we connect you to you being a first-time home buyer, being a starting at life, starting that new journey, starting that new status? So, I think um it would always tie into kind of like the the recognition of needs if you know if if if I'm making any sense here and how do we get and implement that into an experience for first-time home buyers, right? So >> I think that uh you know I we know our goal you know we we chose our pain points.

I think with the physibility time and understanding what we're trying to do here uh if if I were to you know I'm still thinking about two features. Um, >> it still comes down to I think that can answer these or can get us there would be the buyer discovery funnel and the the capturing consumer intent and search and what that's going to look like. Maybe that's something that we can go to the next step.

>> Okay, that that makes sense. Uh, what I was really looking for a little bit here is uh the user journey. You know, how you break it down.

I think you did it well extremely. Uh and if I am correct, what you're saying right now is that you want to focus, you know, on the top two bullet points, which is like recognition of needs first and then letting them evaluate the options, you know, and doing certain action. >> Correct.

Is that right? >> Correct. And we can either capture them before they even start their process on a search engine, right?

or >> um capture capture that intent and guide their intent once they get to Zillow. >> Okay, that makes sense. Um yeah, I would like to hear uh what kind of, you know, solutions you have in mind at this point.

>> Okay. >> Uh in order to, you know, actually improve top of the funnel, >> I think I can break it down. I'm just going to create a table here.

>> Yeah. Yeah, please go ahead. There a couple of user stories that came up during this conversation that let's just hold on.

Let me just insert a row below. Let's say uh users uh uh what what I will just say needs which is equal to stories that the user would not want right >> and then typically when I do any sort of uh growth type of product I would break it down to a couple of metrics. The first one would be revenue metrics.

Second will be seesat customer satisfaction score. Next will be ease of implementation and then the overall score and let's just for the sake of of of keeping it simple I will just score this from A to D. A being the highest and D being the lowest.

>> Uh I would say >> okay that is that okay with you? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I like this that you have prioritization framework in place.

>> Yeah. And then I would say guided discovery would be one story that can help them. >> Mhm.

>> The other one would be capturing them before they start. What I was thinking about this is why not why not put Zillow search on as a plugin on on a on the most popular browser in the world like Chrome Mozilla based browsers or or or Chromium based browsers. So how about um it will be a variation of guided discovery but it will be guided discovery let's say plug-in for browsers right and the goal here the intent here is just capture them the moment they they start their browser and then the third thing that I I'm thinking of we may not have time for a third uh but at least these two right yep >> okay So how how how are we doing so far?

Are you is this something interesting? >> I I I think uh it sounds interesting. I would like you maybe we can think of one more uh you know uh feature uh at this point you know to address the needs of the customer.

I would like to know that and then if you can prioritize those things >> okay >> and like dive deeper into perhaps even like a short explanation of what you thinking is happening behind this or that feature. I would say a third one is a need and this resonates again from the original problem for we're trying to help first-time home buyers but in the status of life there are there's always that there's always going to be that budget need the loan need right how about >> I'm thinking about something where uh not a traditional mortgage loan calculator but let's say uh an AI I hate the word AI but let's just put a AIdriven loan, >> mortgage calculator where >> where this is not just this is not just good for top of the funnel traffic which is your SEO GEO nowadays recommendations from um >> LMS but also it's good for top of the funnel for top of the funnel for that but it's also good for brands especially if you present a product feature that people would actually love and >> to win on just this >> product feature alone gives you direct traffic to the to to to to the tool to the site and even to the app if it's implemented. Does that interest you?

>> Uh yeah, I think it it sounds uh fairly good uh at this point. So I I like the idea. uh can you uh give me you know a few sentences around how do you see you know user utilizing this like AI product maybe like few steps into the user journey so I can better understand you know how they would be using you know uh AIdriven loan uh loan mortgage uh comparing to like traditional one you know where you enter the information and then it gives you kind of like a quote uh how would that be different >> I think the different the different the differentiating factor here would be something where we utilize something like Plaid, you know, >> okay, where you connect your banking information.

Of course, everything will be secure. You have to create an account with Zillow and connect all your financial information so that the AI can give you a fuller, a richer version of what you know what your loan would look like, not just sliders that are traditional that you see >> based in your financial information. Right.

>> Exactly. >> Okay. Okay.

That's that sounds good. I I actually like this idea. Uh it sounds creative.

Uh I don't think uh anybody has implemented this idea yet. Probably you know people are thinking about it. Uh yeah.

So let's prioritize the AIdriven uh low mortgage calculator. I like this idea like what metrics would you track for AIdriven low mortgage calculator? you know you can pick you know maybe three most important uh that you think uh you can just explain the rational behind it.

Okay, since we are solving top of the funnel traffic here, right? So the the first metric would be direct traffic if let's measure web first. Okay, >> let's start with web.

Let's measure the first thing would be direct traffic. >> And the reason why I'm mentioning direct traffic to the website is because >> Zillow has a number of of of channels where they can merchandise what they do. They're very their social their social media channels across Instagram, Twitter and Facebook has a lot of followers.

So by >> merchandising the product first you're going to get a spike in referred traffic but eventually you're going to get direct traffic to the tool itself. So that's that that would be a metric I would say. And then another thing the next thing would be is uh organic traffic for let's say uh loan loan mortgage calculator right because this is a very high highly competitive I know because I've I've been in the I've been in the real estate space highly competitive high traffic keyword if Zillow starts taking market share away from other websites, that'll be a good metric to watch.

And then I would say so this is this is I would say uh um uh I would say I wouldn't say let's just say northstar right this our northstar metric >> and I would say our business metric would be spread across a number of things it will be engagement >> engagement on the tool right as as people are trying to >> connect and and and sign up >> for for to plug in their information. It would be it would be a good idea for us to measure the engagement of the tool. How many people are actually using it?

How many people are um are are are connecting their accounts? It's actually signups, right? >> That that that that sounds good.

So uh what you mean here by engagement to be more specific is you know like uh perhaps first time uh users within like I don't know seven or 30 days. Is that right? Like people actually using the tool and getting like activated.

>> That's something that we can do. Uh I mean if if we were to cohort the the the if we were to cohort our first time if we were to cohort our users, we can break it down to first-time users of the the tool and return users of the tool. Now the fir the return users definitely is easier to easier to to measure because they have to sign up and they have to connect their their financial information, right?

That's easier to see. What would be what would be harder to try but it will be a great funnel for us to measure is the conversion from the number of first-time users landing on the tool getting a taste of what it looks like and then the number of users that actually convert and plug in sign up and plug in their financial information >> absolutely and maybe one kind of like northstar as we're trying to increase the top of the funnel but the end business goal kind of a northstar that I see uh is them actually, you know, getting the mortgage, them actually getting the loan, you know, or buying their first house. Wouldn't that be nice, you know, if they come top of the funnel, they discover the tool, they connect, they get kind of like activated, and then they actually, you know, make the purchase itself.

>> No, that's actually a good point. Revenue metric, there's a good revenue, this a good revenue metric is connect, get connected with a loan officer, mortgage officer. Yes, that would be a good uh Yeah, I would agree.

>> Cool. Cool. Uh amazing.

Uh Carlo, uh thank you so much uh you know for a very thorough uh interview answer. >> Great job. Um let's let's let's talk through uh Oleth.

What do you think is important on this type of problem? >> Uh yeah, so the first thing that comes to my mind that is really really important is uh first of all to have a good product understanding, right? uh where if you don't know something about the product, if you got asked, you know, uh during the interview, better clarify with your interviewer, right?

But the more clarity you have uh the more concise explanation perhaps you can give, you know, of the product person, the better it is, right? So that is a really really good starting point uh everywhere. Uh then what I think is a really nice trick that uh I highly recommend you know everybody uses is to break down the structure before you you know ask any kind of clarifying questions before you dive into any type of you know category at this point.

So usually saying something like oh like I'm going to first think about some clarifying questions then um maybe I'm going to explore with you of why we should be building it or why we should be you know increasing you know top of the funnel conversion you know for Zillow then I'm going to dive into user segments uh pain points or needs that they have solutions and then we can explore further you know I think that sets a really good expectation for the interviewer itself and then uh it also gives you a structure to follow honestly you can just write down a few of the bullet points and you could just like get going right away at this point. >> Nice. >> So that is something that I would highly advise as well as being conversational.

I think kudos to Carlo uh he did really well uh of just keeping you know the conversation alive. I think most of the interviewers um you know they have their you know daily task that they have to complete at work. They have a bunch of stuff on their mind and they're not really thinking about you guys if you don't keep up a conversation with them.

You know, they're probably thinking about how do I increase on my product? You know, I don't care about the question that you ask. So, kudos to you, Carlo.

>> Yeah. Carlo, do did you So, do you think that Carlo was he was he talking to you like it was an interview or was he kind of talking to you like you guys were already working together? >> Uh, I think it was more like uh he was working with me together.

So I got a grasp of his personality you know uh like what kind of person he is, how he talks to me, what kind of you know structural thinking he has, is he curious or not you know so I could have you know grasp those attributes or character characteristics you know that he has already which was really good. One important thing that I would always advise is to um kind of bring up the question uh all the time you know like during every section uh you're you're just saying that okay so uh as I as far as I remember we're focused you know on increasing top of the funnel you know for Zillow so that hence that's why I'm making this decision you know on the user segment uh hence I'm making the decision on this pain point so always tying it back to the question and the goal itself keeps everyone on track uh interviewer as well as you know the person who is being interviewed at the same time. >> I have a I have a question about common mistakes I think for for your domain being focused in real estate.

Carlo, I'd love to hear what you think common mistake wise in this realm would be on this problem. And I'd also like to hear from Ola common mistake just on these types of questions like product design in general. >> Yeah, >> I think uh common mistakes for product managers that's is that the question and going through >> I think specifically on this problem because I think you've got some real real estate knowledge here that let's say let's say somebody have you have you done have you done real estate focused domain product design interviews out in the wild?

>> Correct. Yes, I have. >> So so so yeah.

So just in that domain, what mistakes do you see people making in that domain? >> I think the biggest mistake I've seen, especially somebody who's so rooted in technology, is that they forget to see people. They they forget to see the buyer.

The buyer is not just a buyer. The buyer is, like I said, you know, starting a new family, just got married. um let's say uh one of the user personas I used was um Chris was in that stage of his life but also the second persona that I used was uh Jane and and and and and Mark who are just want to be active want to stay close to their community.

You know, it's it's I think that's a common mistake that I see is that just bucketing everybody into this user or consumer, but they're people and and you know, home buyers are are are very important. They're they're like in this journey and you got to help them. And buying a home, like I mentioned to Ole earlier, is it's it's an emotional bond.

It's an emotional connection. So, I think that's one of the mistakes they make. Ole, what do you think just about maybe uh this round in general from the stuff that you've seen?

>> Uh yeah, so I think for this round what is really important if you don't have a structure that is going to turn out really bad for you, right? So always keep in mind that uh you have to have a structure in mind but you also have to be ready to shift your focus whenever there's a need for that, right? like a person an interviewer could ask you uh oh how would you expand you know then uh Zillow services you know to new emerging markets you know at the end what will be your GTM or uh what would be the general metrics you know that you would track for Zillow and why you know pick top three that are the most important ones or let's dive deeper into the solution itself and design MVP you know so then you have either you know to maybe draw something you know or write it or get into more specifics.

So switching gears here is really important and you know knowing when the interviewer is actually giving you a hint like let's switch back you know or I don't like something you shouldn't be panicking at this point you should listen to the interviewer you should ingest the feedback itself and go ahead and implement it so being structured is really important but being able to shift the gears uh is extremely important as well right so don't say just focused on your framework if you listen to somebody doing a mock interview you should analyze it further. Uh am I able to outline you know the pain points well? Am I able to outline the user segments well?

Am I covering you know the ecosystem you know because interview is giving me a hint that he wants to know like oh what about the the B2B? What about the landlords at this point? You know what about you know the other players that are there in the field?

Do they want to hear about the competitors? So, uh I think uh like really trying to see uh what interviewer really wants out of you when you're having this like conversation uh is really really important at the end of the day. And then prioritization always mentioning the trade-offs.

>> Yes. >> Um your priorities why you're actually making this decision that gives clarity to everyone, right? I might be not uh expert you know at any given point.

I might not know what a Zillow is about you. I might have never used it. But if you give me, you know, clear priorities and why you're actually making this decision objectively, then it will make sense.

>> By the way, I want to thank Ole for always tying in like what he mentioned earlier. I want to thank him for always tying in the original question throughout the entire process. It really kept every it kept me tied in to what we're trying to solve.

So that was that's really great. >> One one one kind of branching thought here. So, we've talked about like table stake stuff, right?

Like, hey, these are people. These are not just users. Hey, use a structure, right?

Those are the kind of bare minimum things. When you guys think of like the top 1% or the top. 1% of candidates in product design interviews, what do they do differently than other people?

>> Uh, Kyle, do you want to go first or should I >> No, I want I want to hear your thoughts on this. You go first. >> Uh, yeah.

I think what top 1% candidates really do is first they start with a really really smart clarifying questions right if the question is really vague at this point like improve Zillow at this point one thing that Carlo did really well is he narrowed down it to the top of the funnel you know he has a personal connection he's really good at growth maybe it's a growth role you know that they're hiring for so you're showing you know that you're capable of doing these things but the more you narrow it down it's like oh maybe there's something specific about the audience or maybe you know uh we're trying to do this within six months timeline or we have some constraints around that. So the more you narrow it down, the better it is uh going to be for you, the easier it's going to be for you to perform during this interview. Right?

>> Nice. >> Uh then the other things is I mentioned this right away very very clear structure. You have to be able to explain once you start each section uh you have to be able to explain it really well and then diving deeper into each specific you know uh area.

Let's say we're talking about the customer segments. If you're being really vague, it's like, oh, I would like to focus, you know, on students and then families and then maybe working professionals, it's not enough. Uh, at this point, you know, outlining the ecosystem and your awareness of it is really good.

But then maybe, you know, what I really like to use is, you know, like three, you know, MEI kind of segmentation where you know who they are, what is the behavior, what is the stage in life, what is the context, you know, they're going to be using this product. Then uh second one which is their motivation the barrier that they have why they like this or why they don't like it where is the barrier itself and then when it's applicable you know give the context when or where um I can give you an example it's like mobile users you know or desktop weekday users you know or the people that go and visit open houses you know on the weekends and it's a kind of like hobby or the exploration that they're doing so having something that you uh like memorize type of frame framework that fits your needs and something that you're able to think through and implement, you know, in any situation is what really different differentiates, you know, top 1% candidate at this point. >> Nice.

Carlo, what do you think? Uh for me it's the best ones I've seen so far where the it really impresses interviewers is that they do a lot of research in the company, take a look at the mission of the company, go into these product sense interviews and tie that in. >> So I I've seen amazing product managers who go through these interviews tying in let's say how do you improve Zillow?

What is the mission of Zillow to begin with, right? which is something I should have done to in the be I was just trying to figure out what kind of of of of a product problem we me and Ole can try to solve. >> But those are that's the biggest thing I've seen where >> the the the the emotional intelligence of that person shines through >> is is is go through that process and making sure that the the the problem that they're trying to solve resonates with the mission of the company.

Uh I would say that but also in addition to uh to that is also knowing when to listen to the interviewer like what Ole said earlier, right? You got to listen to the interviewer because the interviewer actually want you to succeed. >> They want to guide you to the right spot.

And if you're kind of just plowing through, >> that's already a red flag in in my interviews where you're >> I'm giving you chances, but you're not listening. So, >> uh to me, those are the two things that I've seen are like really remarkable aspects of of somebody who's doing the interview. >> Awesome.

Awesome. Any other stuff you guys think is important to mention about this problem? Um I think the last uh thought that I have in mind is uh having a strategic awareness about you know the problem space where you're trying to come up a solution with right uh if you're thinking that AI is going to re revolutionize you know the real estate industry at this point tie it back mention it as you know something that you can leverage or as a market trend I think this is fairly important as a very good introduction to kind of lay a foundation for your interview and Then at the end as you're doing this um you know as you're wrapping up the question uh it's always always important to summarize the ideas and I like even learnings uh that you got back from the interviewer together.

Uh that kind of leads a lasting impression that oh I learned something I was able to articulate my idea very clearly to you and that is my impression you know uh your your impression of me at the end of the day. Nice. >> For me, what I would say is last would be uh just just because you're pausing and speaking doesn't mean that you don't know the problem.

It's actually good to pause and think >> and try to clarify, try to understand, you know, uh he Ollie brought it up earlier. You got to bring it down to like four things, right? Who is it for?

What does it do? Why do we need it? And how does it work?

>> Every step of the way. That's it. Awesome.

Awesome. Last question. Hiring decision.

Olay. What is your hiring decision and why? >> Uh yeah.

So, let let me think about this. Uh how would I evaluate Carlo uh for a moment? I I think he's uh pretty like he's a strong hire at this point.

Uh I would, you know, probably follow up uh with some more interviews. I wouldn't make the admin decision you know based on just like one product design interview. Um I would be able to probably uncover more towards uh the behavioral product rounds you know where he shares his experience of building products.

Um I think you know the teamwork and the communication is really important at this point. being able to identify how he strives in ambiguity. Is he able to be you know very customer centric and bring maybe you know like customer insights the data together to actually you know show the direction to the team of what we should be building and what like what is the right problem to solve at the end of the day right so I would um try to uh get you know deeper into those topics as well uh before making a decision but I think for this interview Carlo did fairly Wow.

>> Awesome. All right. All right, guys.

That's it.