A conversation with Jony Ive

I'm very excited about this interview. Uh there are few people in the valley who need uh or in the technology industry more broadly who need uh less of an introduction uh than uh than than Johnny. And it struck me as I was about to walk on here that he barely even needs a surname. Um please welcome to the stage Sir Johnny IV. Okay, let's do this. All right, so um well, thank you for joining us. I really would love to say that um I I am unspeakably grateful and honored to be here. Um spending any

time with Patrick is a big deal. So, thank you. Well, um I want to um start sort of in the uh in the obvious place. Um just I mean you didn't I don't know if you got to kind of walk the floor and everything, but you you can see sort of a little bit here and I you're see you had the monitor backstage and so forth. Um what do you think of the design? It's lovely, isn't it? No, it's it's very um do you know I've not been here um I haven't been here for a

long time and um I have some very strong um and vivid memories of being here but no the design's lovely. The um the first event I ever came to in uh in San Francisco uh was uh was one that you designed where the otter behind. It was the uh WWDC in I have to go back and check. I I think it was 05 maybe it was 06. Uh but um that was the first event I came to in uh in San Francisco and it was actually I want to say it was here in this room

at Muscone. Uh but uh but actually um John get got to be in here but I was relegated to the overflow room which was not my fault. All right. So um well speaking of that you came to Silicon Valley in 1992. Is that right? That's right. Yeah. So um you're still very young but that was um that was uh you know a couple of years ago. A couple of decades ago. Um how has how is Silicon Valley? So Alan Allen K says that um the software industry and the computing industry is a pop culture uh

in the sense that we we are ahistorical and we don't understand the ideas and the antecedants and the things that came before us and you know that's Alan K's view I don't know if it's right but I thought it was an interesting idea and certainly it's the case that if you ask people I don't know to you know in in in many industries the greats and the creators and so forth are these kind of big hallowed names. But if you ask people, you know, who invented the internet, a lot of people in the in the

technology industry don't have a don't have, you know, a clear sense of of that history. I've always found that kind of phenomenon interesting. But since you've now got to observe Silicon Valley for, you know, 33 years, how's it changed? Well, I I think when when I was at art school, I um so I I studied design um in England. I I I was born in London and studied up in the northeast and I remember discovering the Mac um in my final year sadly. I wish it had been earlier. Um, but I I came to realize

something that was I I I should have realized earlier, but that what I realized was that what we make stands testament to who we are. And what we make describes our values. It describes our preoccupations. It discuss, you know, it describes beautifully, succinctly, um, our preoccupation. And this struck me so powerfully when I saw the Mac. Um, and I I I got a very specific puzzle was a kind of bicycle for the mind. That aspect of it or something else? It was every part. I got a very clear sense of a group clearly of of

original thinkers with clear values completely um I I I I think obsessed with people and culture. You know that there was you know you can look at something and it can either it can tell you I was designed um to meet a price point at a certain time so I hit the schedule. we can repent at our leisure and and and it's as cheap as we hoped or you can try and design something that genuinely attempts to move the species on. And I had a very clear sense of the latter that this was created by

this renegade group in California and so powerful. I mean, I studied industrial design. I didn't study technology but I was so moved by the clear values and the resolve and the courage that I think enabled the the embodiment of those values um that I wanted to meet these people. I wanted to come out and so after college in '89 I first came out I had to return this is probably way too much information. Um you're among just a couple of friends. Exactly. It's a this is a a small intimate fireside chat. Well the interesting thing

was that I had um a job commitment. I was sponsored through college and so I had to go back to work in design in London and there was a strange liberty I think that afforded me. I was impossibly shy and I think if I'd been traveling out to meet people with the goal of getting a job, I I would have I would have found that so anxious making, I don't think I would have dared to meet people. Um, and so because I had no agenda, I think also I think people were probably happier to meet

me because they didn't think I wanted anything. Um, and so to to to dare to get close to answering your question, um, what I saw in ' 89 92 when I finally moved out, Apple I worked I consulted for Apple for a couple of years and then they persuaded me to move to San Francisco. what to move to to Apple here. Um what I saw I think was or or what I felt was um or a sort of an innocent euphoria I think of of like-minded people driven by values clearly in service of humanity gathering

together in in some small groups in some huge groups. But I I do believe there was a very strong sense of purpose and that purpose was we are here to serve the species. And was that at Apple in '92 or in the technology industry in '92 or in the Bay Area in '92? That's a great qu I I think honest honestly Patrick it was everywhere. I felt um and even though you know there were competitors, even though I did feel that there was an underlying sense of our place um as servants and of principled service

and what's changed well I don't think that's the case entirely. Um I I think there are agendas that are about well there are corporate agendas. I think um and and this will sound a little harsh, but it is um driven by money and power. Um and I think if if you know how you tend to get you you end up somewhere by sort of increments, um I think if you were to starkly contrast today with 92, um I think that would be a reasonable um assessment. And for anybody creating software, creating a product, creating a

company, what's the what's the center or what's the north north star that you perceive as you know having um you know gotten a skew today or the thing that people should you know hold firm to in order to avoid some of these failure modes. Is it what you just mentioned having a clear sense of purpose? Is it sort of having a kind of servant orientation? How how would you think what is what's at the heart of it? I I I think there there need you know there there need to be foundational values and an understanding

of our place in in all of this and and um having a clear sense of the goal which is to enable and inspire people. I mean, you know, Patrick and I were talking um just a while ago about being tool makers, and I'm very clear and very proud that that's my occupation and that's my practice. Um I I love trying to move things forward, which means innovating. Um I I have a real issue with I think people confuse innovation with being different or breaking stuff. Um, I have no interest in breaking stuff for the sake

of breaking stuff. Um, I I don't think breaking stuff and and moving on quickly um leaves us well, it leaves us surrounded by carnage. Um, I I'm interested if things get broken as a consequence of actually creating something better. Um but I I I think one of the things that is I think it's part of the human condition is that we assume that progress and innovation is sort of inevitable and you know that it's not you know that you have to have you know this underlying conviction which is fuel and then we need an idea

and a vision and then the resolve to make that vision something that is real that is not just for us but that we can share broadly. Um you once used a phrase with me uh sincerely elevate the species. Yeah, I I I think that you know that I I remember many times and and fortunately I'm not talking in in the past tense, but I do remember particular Sunday afternoons working um actually I remember working on some absurd details with with in terms of packaging and um and in such a tr I mean this this compared

to what um you guys do this will seem so trivial but I had such a clear awareness that in designing a certain solution for for example how we managed a cable that's in a box that designing that I knew that millions of people would engage with this little tab and I can either make the cable an easy thing to unwrap sorry That is such a trivial example, isn't it? But but but but clearly you think that um I mean you you can describe the purpose of that in you know seconds saved you know that shaves

5 seconds off the unwrapping of every cable and multiply it across hundreds of millions you know but but I get the sense from you that's not why you do it. It's not it's not this trivial utilitarian you know m multiplication and calculation. There's something spiritual in it for you. What's the spiritual thing? I I think the spiritual thing is that um I believe that when somebody unwrapped that box and took out that cable and they thought somebody gave a [ __ ] about me, I think that's a spiritual thing. And I think it's a way

and I know I'm in good company here. I know that when you you know what used to depress me was this sense that solving a functional imperative then we're done. But of course that's not enough. That's that's not that's not the characteristic of an evolved society of an evolved species. And so that Sunday afternoon when I really should have been out with my boys and I'm worrying about this this I I did feel a connection and an excitement that somebody was going to experience something that they don't even know exists yet. And even though it

was a small thing, um it would really did come genuinely from a place of love and of care. Um, and Steve spoke about this. I mean, he spoke about it way more eloquently than I can, but he talked about when you make something with love and with care. Even though the people that you've made it for, you don't know their story. They don't know your story. You'll never even shake their hands. But when they use the product that you've made, it it's a way and the way Steve expressed it I thought was so beautiful. He

said it's a way of expressing our gratitude to the species. And I thought that was such an an incredibly thoughtful and beautiful and authentic declaration. So when people talk about your design or design that occurred in your time at Apple, um they often refer to minimalism, simplicity, the clarity and function, you know, things like this and that's all certainly true. Um, but part of what's very striking to me is how much of it uh seems to um seems to have some kind of um sense of humor or joy woven into it. Like there's the um

the iMac like the Pixar lamp. Um there's the the lozenge iMacs in their uh technicolor. Um there were there were even iPod socks. What's the role of joy in design? Well, I I I think if that's such a good question because I think one of the mistakes that people make is that they think simple products um you know simplicity is about removing clutter and to me that means you just would end up with an uncluttered product um but a kind of desiccated soulless product. actually as that's a beautiful description a desiccated soulless product. I think

that's what a lot of minimalism ends up being um or modernism ends up manifesting as. I my goal and our goal collectively has been to bring order to chaos, to try and in but simplicity to me is trying to um succinctly express the essence of something and its purpose and its role in our life. Um I actually think that um something that I'm I I feel conscious of is that um I think generally in in the valley and generally in our shared you know in our industry I think joy and humor has been missing. Um,

and that's something that I I I that that sort of weighed on me a bit. And um, and I um, you know, the the products that we we you know, we're all developing, they're complicated, aren't they? Um, and sometimes joy gets confused with being trivial. Um but but I think I always go back I don't know about you but I always go back to being very clear that the my state of mind and how I am in my practice ultimately is going to be embodied in the work. And so if I'm if I'm consumed with

anxiety that's how the work will end up. And so, um, I I think to be hopeful and optimistic and joyful in our practice and and be that way in how we relate to each other and our colleagues. I actually think that's how the products will will end up. There's a um there's a uh there's a wonderful talk um by a guy called Daniel Cook um about how to build a um a princess saving enterprise application um uh but he uh he you know kind of deconstructs uh Super Mario um and obviously the the core purpose

is to to save the princess um and uh sort of approaches it from a standard enterprise application design standpoint uh and uh and puts together uh some um some uh some examples of how one might go about it. And he impuges this approach and and and kind of critiques it because he says that this kind of design fails to recognize that uh that the user is a person. Um the person wants to learn, the person can change. The software has an effect on the person and you have to take that very seriously. And the words

you're using uh enable, inspire, love, care, gratitude, joy, they to me they seem to come from a conception of the person as somebody who's living and changing and the software in fact hasn't affected them. It's what so so something Patrick and I have talked about in the past is and and this is something I'd love to try and describe and and you'll have to you'll have to help me um because I think it's really important and it's something that I realize and it took me many years at Apple to realize this but it's it's an

effect that I believe occurs when you're in larger groups of people involved in the common cause of developing a product. I I think one of the things that happens is, you know, generally we, you know, we grow up wanting to be able to relate to people and wanting to be sociable. Um, we find ourselves um in a work environment with hopefully a diverse range of people. And one of the things that's interesting is if if we're developing products together, um there is this I I noticed this and it used to infuriate me before I came

to try to have a slightly more generous interpretation of why this happens, but that people generally want to talk about product attributes that you can measure easily with a number. So if if you if you if you guys think about it and you think about what would dominate the conversations that you would you would have product conversations you will end up talking about schedule cost speed weight um anything where you can you know generally agree that six is a bigger number than two and I understand why but the problem is much of what you know

much of my contribution and the contribution of designers and other creatives, you can't measure easily with a number. Or it's it gets even more demeaning. It can be just, well, that's your opinion. Well, that's like telling your heart surgeon, well, that's your opinion, and you having a go yourself. Um and so what I came to realize and I think this is um I the the I think the more generous interpretation I had was we do that because we want to try to relate to each other. We do that because we want to be inclusive. But

then this is the dangerous thing that happens and and I I would I I would encourage um I I desperately hope this doesn't sound arrogant but I would really encourage you to think about this because I've been so struck by how important this is. The insidious lie follows which is we spend all our time talking about attributes because we can easily measure them. Therefore, this is all that matters. And that's a lie. It's important, but it's a partial truth. and all of the stuff that I think designers and other creatives um can contribute to an

experience or to a product um that can make it delightful to use and joyful to use as well as more productive. Um if it's delightful and joyful, things tend to be used more. Um are equally important. Um, nothing you say sounds arrogant because when you have a beautiful British accent, then you can get away with anything. Um, so, um, um, we're speaking about the import and the impact of design, but if we shift a little bit to the practice, um, is there a trade-off between speed of execution and ensuing quality? sometimes. Um I was hoping

you'd say no. I I I absolutely know there are fabulous examples where um I I I would reframe the question as as it being about motivation. So I think what tends to happen is when when we're put in this situation of having to choose um I would get belligerent and say no we don't have to choose we can do both um it's very hard I mean I know you guys have heard this lots but it's hard to do quality and speed and cost and other things but um I think I think there is a beauty

to working efficiently ly and I think we can say that's um speed. I think I think you know I know we both are pay a great deal of attention to the words that we use because they affect the way we think and the words that we use to frame a problem are some of the most important. And so I I I I would sort of frame the issue of of how can we work wonderfully efficiently um to create something with breathtaking quality. um as organizations grow uh there's another kind of tension where maybe for various

people here in the audience certainly this is something I've experienced in the early I mean the early days it's it's in the earliest days it's just you um and then there's you know maybe a couple of other people but you can kind of excuse me kind of say a breast of everything that's happening and you feel like you have the opportunity at least to exercise your taste or judgment or opinion and you know, whatever the uh issue might be. And then perhaps things continue to scale and at some point it's it's far beyond the uh

it becomes um far beyond the scale and scope uh of any single human. And then there's this um there's this discontinuity where there are things that happen happened that I never saw. Uh I never had the chance and uh opportunity to weigh in on. I don't know how I feel about it. I I wouldn't have done that thing over there. How how do you I mean Apple was not a small company when you were there. Certainly not in the um in the later years. How do you deal with this? And and I think it's both

the scale and scope, but also doesn't it feel intrinsically unreasonable to simply say that this thing here doesn't accord with my taste? Um I think it's very reasonable to say that. Um it's it's it's very very hard, isn't it? Um I I think what I have I I do believe that we go through chapters or seasons and we the painful part is the conclusion of one and the beginning of the next where we we have to adjust and we we change our approach. I think the one thing obviously it will not work to assume how

we started is how we're going to finish and so I think being very clear that we are in a constant state of flux and it's trying to figure out I I believe what is you know what I'm not going to compromise um and I think that's the very clear focus on your principles and your values and your motivations I think the alarm bells always go off for me when I think why did I do that? Has a motivation shifted? And that's when I've I I've really been upset with myself and disappointed with myself and reset.

Um, but I I do think if if our our motivations and values remain the same, we will find ways to be the control freaks we were born to be. Um, and and which of course I mean or we can say care as much as we but let's be honest. um um for a design team that um that you're leading or participating in, uh what are the rituals? Well, one of the the I think um that there's nothing more important to me than the creative team. and declaring that and being clear about this this is my

contribution. Um and therefore I need to be part of an extraordinary team. Um but that's just you know that's the price of admission isn't it? So you can have the people but practice our our process our practice the protocols are so important. um over over many years over I mean I've been doing this and leading small creative teams for I mean over 30 years these are some of the things that I found important um if you're dealing as I was describing earlier with concepts that you can't measure with numbers if you're dealing with ideas that

always if you think about the evolution of an idea it always starts off as a thought and then a and you know then a tentative discussion. Um uh one of the things I realize is just how you know these ethereal thoughts, these fragile concepts, um are precarious. And I think a small team of people that really trust each other um is I I I think is fundamentally important. trust and and love each other who care about each other. Um if you care about, you know, then you might be in danger of actually listening. You know,

the the thing that just kills so many ideas. And I've worked in places that where this happens. But people are just desperate to be to speak and to be heard. And there's nothing like you know what kills most ideas I think are people desperate to express an opinion. And it's really let's be very clear opinions aren't ideas. Um I was going to say something really rude then but I won't. Um but um but I I I think you can say we can cut it from the video. But the the the to be quiet and to

listen and and one of the things that terrifies me, I know that I've missed really amazing ideas that that came from a quiet place, from a quiet person. And that really scares me because I don't know what I've missed. And so, so talking about the rituals, I I think doing things that mean our relationship is authentic and deep. Um, you know, one of the things that I discovered that I think is really important, you know, we tried a lot of things at Apple and most of most of the things that I, you know, tried didn't

work out. Um but a few things um I was excited about and grew I think to be very powerful. I think one as a practice it's very good to make things for each other. I think for that to become part of your um you know daily way of connecting to your team to think about what you can make for each other that's just a really it puts you in a lovely place. It makes you more worried about them than you. It makes you vulnerable and it makes them grateful. And that's a lot isn't it? I

mean ju those things just think about what I said that's a that starts to define a quite a lovely culture and then connected to that something I was really struck by Paul Graham says make things people want and Johnny Ives says make things for each other yes it it's a I mean that's what we do isn't it I mean all we're doing is at a very personal level practicing what we're doing you know at our professional level all of us here I I guess almost every single person here we we're about making something for other

people and so perhaps I I don't know quite make things people want I feel is sort of a business strategy whereas it sounds like what you're saying is make things for each other is a team strategy. Well, as a team, well, so for example, one of the things I thought was great was that you, you know, every Friday morning, um, I asked that one person on the design team would make breakfast for the whole team and we took it in turns and we had so make things for each other. I'm imagining, you know, prototype iPhones,

but no, it can also be bacon, bacon and eggs. I'm talking corn flakes and milk. I mean, we I mean, we soared I mean, dizzy heights of some of the food and some of it was so shocking. Um, but it all came from the same place in terms of motivation and um, and something that was connected that I was surprised at how powerful it was, excuse me, was we would host we would take it in turns to have the design team come to our homes and we would spend a day working in our in our

home. And the This is something I probably thought way too much about. Um, but that it was in a very very powerful way of one doing um or encouraging us in our practice to do good work and in in in building the team. And I think there's an interesting first of all there's an interesting dynamic in terms of how we regard each other. You know the host and this is a bit like when we make something for one another the host is slightly anxious and concerned about the potential judgment of their soft furnishings. And I

mean you know what it's like when you have somebody come to your house. there is a self-consciousness and well certainly I you know an an awkwardness I feel and an anxiety and I don't think that's unhealthy always and um and then the guests who you are hosting are you know they're on better behavior than if they were all just trundling into a conference room and then then you've got the context you know if you're designing for people normal I mean Who here would actually want to spend time in a conference room? I can't think of

a more soulless and depressing place. I mean, the I I I always think it's funny. Think about the relationship between the chair you're sat on and how you feel. Like you would you would none of you would sit watching the TV on these chairs. you I mean you wouldn't choose to sit on this chair unless it was to listen to John and Patrick. So I'm not sure that we're the attraction this particular event but but I think there is an important point which is if you're designing for people and you're in someone's living room sat

on their sofa or sat on their floor and your sketchbook is on their coffee table. Of course you think differently, don't you? Of course your your preoccupation, your you know where your mind wanders um is so different than if you're sat in in a in a typical you know corporate conference room. Is beauty subjective or objective? um figure we now get to easier questions. Yeah, I I think it's I don't I mean I'd be interested to on your take on that. I I think it's a bit of both. I I think um I think utility

and function, if something doesn't work, it's ugly. Um I I I've always get frustrated when people try to, you know, they they set up a false opposition between, you know, utility and aesthetics. And um when I've designed something or been involved in the design of something that doesn't work, I don't care what it looks like. It's ugly. I I think the tougher thing is when we get on to the issues of taste and and I think design has always been a difficult thing in that um because it's very easy for everybody to have an opinion.

Everybody does. It just doesn't mean every opinion has the same weight. And I think that I don't I think that's a relatively robust statement in that if you've studied if you've studied and studied and studied design although I know people who've studied and studied design with terrible taste. So, um I don't know. Um yeah, it's a very it's it's a good Okay. So, um Christopher Alexander said that um that between two objects or two choices or two paths, the one that feels more humane uh is the one that you should choose. but that this kind

of sense of humanity in the object is a better guide than beauty which perhaps pulls you into more subjective territory. Does that resonate at all or do you think that sounds crazy? No, I I think that's absolutely the case and I I think that people I I think um generally most companies patronize consumers. Um I think users are I actually do believe a very sophisticated And um I think there's issues of beauty of h you know of of of humanity. I also think, and this goes back to the first thing I was saying about, you

know, my sense of Steve and and the Apple team, you know, looking at the the first Mac, um that you sense care. Um and I I've I've tried to talk about this before. Um I really do believe and and I I wish that I had, you know, empirical evidence. Um but I do believe that we have this ability to sense care in whe it's easy in a service because you confront care because you confront the person when it's vicarious when it's via an object where when when it's via a piece of software. It's more complex.

But I think you might understand it more if I said you sense carelessness. You know carelessness. And so I think it's reasonable to believe that you also know care and you sense care and you work very hard and I felt passionately about finishing the inside of products. Um and when I mean finishing I mean um you know we designed everything and we cared about everything. Um, and you know, I mean, you I'm sure many of you have heard the bit about, you know, a great cabinet maker finishes the back of a drawer, even though it's

unlikely it will be seen. But in the same way, I think a mark of our how evolved we are as people. It's what we do when no one sees. And and and I think that's that that's a it's indicative. It's a it's a powerful marker of who we truly are. Um, and I I would be haunted by, you know, if all we did was the outside my I would have this nagging feeling in my tummy that we were just being superficial. So you mentioned modernism uh a little bit earlier in this in this discussion and

there's sort of a a puzzle that I've been trying to reconcile around modernism um that maybe you can sort of help me with where um so much early modernism was kind of deliberately ugly. Like you have the Duchamp fountain and you have I mean even Picasso's work I mean it's it's dissonant, right? It's not it's certainly not classically beautiful. Um and then you sort of had this political veilance to the um to the program and you know Gropius said that Bow House was a he said in the manifesto that it was a socialist movement um

and you know you were originally trained in bow house design right yes yeah so um so there's this kind of and and you've shown and the a tonality and you know all this stuff right um but then the Apple products and the products that you designed are very beautiful uh and Apple is not a socialist undertaking. And so what's going on here? And so the particular thing I'm trying to figure out is was there a strain to modernism where it was intentionally trying to be dissonant or you know even ugly or to shock people or

something and how maybe now with some remove you know you're no longer at Apple. How do you view all that view that whole thing and what's your what's your take on modernism? That's a great question. I I I think what tends to happen is is very often at the beginning of a movement whether it's a design or an art movement there is that um that incredible energetic um I mean in in a way by definition if it if it marks the beginning of a movement there is energy and I think often beauty is it evolves.

Beauty takes time. Um, and very often at the beginning of an energy, it's an explosion and there's not time. Um, I would dare presume that certainly if we're talking about fine art that people would say they they have no time. They don't want to be distracted by concepts of beauty. And so I think for sure, you know, if if if a lot of modernism was driven by, you know, the heady um excitement about new materials, um your obsession was the manipulation of that new material. Um I one thing I mean I'm not sure how many

of you guys know about Bow House, but this was a movement in in Germany. Um but what you will know you know you'll be and it any it range from fine art to furniture to architecture Patrick mentioned Walter Gropius and um an incredible um incredible movement but there were you know what you would probably be most familiar with would be chairs like um the buer chair or the facility chair which were if you think of try and think of like um polished steel chromeplated tubes that are bent. You know those sort of bent chairs. So

what's interesting there is these guys had just figured they were so excited because they'd figured out how to bend tubes. And so what did they do? They bent tubes. And that's why all the furniture is bent tube furniture. So I I think that I mean that's what I would have done if id figured because you know when you bend tubes they tend to kink and so they'd figured out this way of putting springs into tubes and so of course you run away and you'd bend as many tubes as you could get your hands on. Um

beauty probably wasn't at the front of your mind tubes. So when I look at your work and we haven't yet uh talked about love from although maybe if you want to give people a sort of a short summary of how you think about that that might be helpful but when I look at your more recent work and some of what love from uh has done um I see it as uh as Johnny's ornament era uh where Apple was so stripped down and bare and you know reduced to the essence And now uh I I see

that uh I mean maybe this is a misapprehension um but now you're more curious to uh to try other styles. Is that true? I I I think it's a lovely observation. Yeah. I I I think um so it's nearly six years ago that I left Apple. Um, and my goal was to build um the most extraordinary creative team I possibly could. Um, and and we're about 50 60 people. Many of many of the the designers I've worked with for decades and decades, which means I worked with them at Apple. And um but it's a very

diverse team. So it's a team of industrial designers, graphic designers, user interface designers, architects, typographers, musicians, sound designers. And I I think per perhaps what what you're referring to is that just the the the the our usefulness or or the the the people that we're collaborating with. That's a very diverse group now where before we were very focused and we had um a clear criteria for what we were doing. Um but if you're working for um the king on his his coronation um identity, that of course would demand um a very different approach than the

one we would have taken if we were designing instructional products for how to use an iMac. So um so I think that's that's um follow what you're saying. Yeah, I think it's it it's it's really what the the problem is that we're, you know, we're we're addressing. Um, so you're talking a lot about the purpose of design and the effect that design has on the on the recipient, on the user, on the consumer, you know, whatever the case is. Um there's widespread concern and speculation uh about the effects of smartphones slash the internet doesn't necessarily

you know accord just with the the smartphone um but on some of these products on attention spans uh and you know whether it has some adverse effect on kids or teens or who knows maybe all of us maybe the adults as well um you know there's questions over with AI whether it you know changes how education works and cheating and school, you know, just so all of these technologies that we create have this um potential double-sidedness to them. And so I guess as somebody who clearly takes seriously and thinks seriously about the full effects, how

do you think about the um about the the possible harms? Yeah, I think when um and and this is there's probably not not anything that I I'm can be more preoccupied or bothered by than what you've just described. Um I think when you're innovating, of course, there will be unintended consequences. you hope that the majority will be um pleasant surprises. Um certain products that I've been very very involved with, I think there were some unintended consequences that were far from pleasant. Um my issue is that even though there was no intention, I think there still

needs to be responsibility. Um and that weighs on me as you know heavily. Um I think um what I think has been parti particularly difficult is traditionally when you look at um innovation I mean there's nothing new with I mean if you if you um one one thing I mean Patrick and I were months ago talking about um some of the architecture that was associated with the industrial revolution um in England And there so you know there are examples well we could talk about this Google Victorian pumping stations do so a pumping so you imagine

this idea that sewage used to flow freely down the streets and then suddenly and this is for all of humanity's existence um if if there were streets Um and then suddenly sewage was silently and predictably and consistently kept from streets and the machines that achieved this were housed in cathedral like structures. I mean it's amazing and there there there is just in incredible precedent for these huge when when you have a big technological change it impacts society. Um and the industrial revolution is um my goodness a profound profoundly um significant um you know occurrence in

the the the sort of mid middle of the 1800s in in certainly in the UK. Um, the thing that that I think is is so challenging is there was time for society to to to stop and consider what was happening. And there was time for structure um and and whether that was sort of infrastructure, whether it was sort of social frameworks to to try and assimilate and and deal with these shifts. And I think what's been very challenging is um we are moving so fast um the discussion comes far too late and there can't be

I mean unless there is I mean the thing that I find encouraging about AI is it's very rare for there to be a discussion about AI and there not to be the appropriate concerns about safety. What I was far more worried about was for years and years and years there would be discussions about social media and I was extremely concerned about social media and there was no discussion whatsoever and and it's the insidious um you know challenge of of a problem that's not even talked about I think is always more concerning. Um and so yeah,

I I think the rate of change is dangerous. I think um even if you you you're innocent in your intention, I think if you're involved in something um that has poor consequences, you need to own it. And um that ownership personally um has driven a lot of what I've been working on that I can't talk about the moment but look forward to being able to talk about um some point in the future. Um, you mentioned, um, I wasn't going to bring it up, but you mentioned the Victorian pump station. So, um, uh, which, um, which

place and time in history had the best design? I Oh, I that's such a good question. I I I would I wouldn't dare to answer, but I I do think that the um I I think what happened in the industrial revolution I I am just absolutely obsessed with at the moment. You know, that there were um you know, as a team at Love, we've been doing we've been doing research. Um um I'm lucky enough to work with this amazing writer called Jamaima who I think might be here here this afternoon. She's she's been doing a

bunch of research um on on on whe whether it's sort of physical objects or social consequences. Um and and I I think because I see design as much more than objects. I I think for example um some of the there were there were two companies in England um that really were born out of the um you know they were Quakers. There was one called Cadbury's and um the other was called a company called Fries. Both Birmingham, right? I I think they were I think in the Midlands. Yeah. Um, but what was so interesting was the

people that ran these companies, they also designed the housing. And you don't just design a place to put bedrooms, housing, which meant towns, which meant, you know, this sense of civic responsibility. And of course, that was appropriate because people were moving. of the industrial revolution was not just a mass manufacturer for the first time in history, but it was this huge movement from the land to cities, which had never happened before. And so I I just think that generally when we talk about these huge huge shifts, of course we all get nervous and worried, but

there are wonderfully encouraging prototypes that we can look to. And there was I mean so just after cabri and fries they were first um there was um Hershey's in Philadelphia I think and a very similar approach and concern. Um I I know less about that specific example, but um but so I I love it when the innovation is is, you know, it's cultural, it's political, um you know, very often it's spiritual and it's um manifest in in in buildings. But um you don't um you you you speak in public now very rarely and so um

of course very grateful that you're here. Um we're at a programmable financial infrastructure conference. Um how and why should people I mean and of course the businesses here are from every crevice and you know aspect and um and uh you know different sector of the economy. Um but for people in the infrastructure domain um or for businesses like Stripe and maybe Stripe is kind of an example or can be you know stand in for other businesses where you know ostensibly uh perhaps one ought not care um intensely about design in the way that perhaps a

consumer uh electronics company ought to. Um why should a business with the characteristics that Stripe has care so much? Well, if Stripe didn't, Stripe wouldn't be Stripe and you wouldn't be sat here. So, um I every bone in my body. I I truly believe that um if we want to participate um as members of the the species, we um I actually don't think we have a choice. I think it's an obligation and a responsibility to care for each other. And I mean, Freud said a great thing. Freud said, you know, all there is, all there

is is love and work. Work and love. That's that's all there is. And so, um, we spend a lot of time working. And so, if we elect to spend our time working, not caring about other people, I think not only do other people um suffer. I think we suffer. I think that's a corrosive existence. And so I think it's I would see it as a not only a responsibility but truly a privilege if we get to practice and express our concern and our care um for for one another. Um, yeah, I don't see it as

a I I don't I don't carve my existence up in that way of of thinking his this is, you know, with my commercial hat on or my I'm just Johnny. On that note, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much. Thank you.