Darryl Cooper: The True History of the Jonestown Cult, WWII, and How Winston Churchill Ruined Europe

The big tech companies censor our content. I hate to tell you that it's still going on in 2024, but you know what? They can't censor live events. That's why we are hitting the road on a fall tour for the entire month of September. Coast to coast will be in cities across the United States. We'll be in Phenix with Russell Brand, Anaheim, California, with Jake Ramaswamy, Colorado Springs with Tulsi Gabbard, Salt Lake City with Glenn Beck, Tulsa, Oklahoma, with Dan Bongino, Kansas City with Megan Kelly, Wichita with Charlie Kirk, Milwaukee, with Larry Elder Rosenberg, Texas, with

Jesse Kelly, Grand Rapids, with kid Rock, Hershey, Pennsylvania, with JD Vance. Redding, Pennsylvania, with Alex Jones. Fort Worth, Texas, with Roseanne Barr, Greenville, South Carolina, with Marjorie Taylor Greene. Sunrise, Florida, with John Rich. Jacksonville, Florida, with Donald Trump Junior. You can get tickets at TuckerCarlson.com. Hope to see you there. So sometimes I think to myself, you know, why are current events so unclear to so many people? And I always go back to the question of history. You can't really understand what's happening right now unless you understand what has happened before. You certainly can't plan a

coherent future unless you understand that, I think, well, why do people know so much, so little about history? Partly because it's not taught. And then the extent that it is taught in, say, airport bookstores. You know, our popular historians are people like Jon Meacham and Michael Beschloss and Doris Kearns Goodwin and Anne Applebaum. You know, not only sort of the dumbest people in the country would say, I know most of them. But also completely dishonest political actors. And so I think I just want to I can tell you here compliments, but I just want to

say I think you are the most important popular historian working in the United States today. You work in a different medium on Substack X podcasts. But I'm a fan of yours because of the way you treat history, which is with relentless curiosity and honesty. And I'm sure you have all kinds of political beliefs, religious beliefs, or whatever, but I feel Like you get to what you think is true based on really intense research. So I just for those people who aren't familiar with who you are. I want people to know who you are. And I

want you to be, widely recognized as the most important historian in the United States, because I think that you are. So that's my last compliment For our time together. I know it was excruciating. Tell us some of, the stories we call them. Stories, but historical events that you have taken a really close look at recently. So I decided to start with an easy one. I did a 26 hour. Series on the early history of Zionism and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. Whether that was. Naivete or hubris, it turned. Out pretty well. Yes. You know, and the reason

it turned out. Well, I think, and I've had time to really. Think about it over the years. I started it in 2015. Took me a few years to complete. But I've received. Hundreds of emails from Israelis, from. Jews around the world who are, you know, boosters of Israel, as well as. Palestinians and people around the Middle East and people who were. Critical of Israel, who all of them on. All sides have kind of told me that it opened up. At least opened up their perspective To the way the other side saw the world, which is

what I was. Going for, you know. In all of my series, something that I didn't. Really I think that the series that you did on the formation of Israel, I think, is regarded by honest people as the most honest, most nonaligned look. No axis were being ground maybe ever done. Can you just tell people who aren't familiar with it? What did it take to produce that you said took a few years, but what did you do in preparation for it? Well, you know, it's funny actually, because. When I first started it, I didn't really know.

What went into making a podcast like that, right? So I had this experience where. I started working on it after I had read maybe like six books, because I only the series only goes up to 1948. I did some follow up work on the more modern period, but. This is up to. The foundation of the State of Israel in the lead up to that. Right. That's the I only covered that part. And so I didn't know if this was Going to be a one episode thing, a two episode thing. I start working on it after

I've read about six. Books on that pre 1948. Period. And I'm working on it for maybe, you know, quite a while taking my time because I was working. For the Department of Defense at the time. So it was, you know, a side gig and wasn't even a gig. I didn't make any money from it. But. And after a while, when I started to. Approach the end of that episode, this is months and months and months later. By now I've read 20 books, 30. Books about that pre 1948 period and a lot of the tangential topics

and issues that that, Help. Better help. You better understand it. And I went back and I started going. Over what I'd created for that first episode, and it was so embarrassingly. Terrible where you look at it and you're like, this is not even that phrase, not even wrong. It's like, this is not even. It was a nightmare to read and You realize, and I realized something at that point I was like, I've read, I started this. I'd read six books on this topic. Six books is a lot, you know, on a single historical topic. There's

countless topics that I've read a book or two on. And if you give me like an energy drink and let me go, I'll start pontificating for hours about it, you know? Oh, I know the feeling. I read a book on the Federal Reserve once. And so eventually I got to the point. I counted them all up one time. People keep asking me to put. Together a list. I can't put together a complete one because. I just didn't keep. Is going to track as I should, but I read over 80. Whole books. Parts of another. 100

at least. And. About when I counted them up, I, I could remember about like 12, 1300 academic papers in journal. I read everything I could find. So only people in prison read 80 books. Yeah, well, or people who work For the Department of. Defense and their, job entails spending 8 to 10 months a year going overseas by yourself, often with nothing to do in a country that nobody speaks your language. So. You know, I would I would go over to, work with one of our foreign. Allies, usually on, the weapons systems that I specialized in.

We'd go over there and we'd work during the day. Most of the Ministry of Defense people. It doesn't matter what country you go to, you can go to Israel. You can go to, Norway, you can go to Japan. Korea. All they want to talk about is American gun culture. It's everybody know it is. And it's at an interest of yours. Is that are you knowledgeable on That topic? I wouldn't say I'm necessarily like technically knowledgeable, like my gun nut friends are. But yeah, in terms of, you know, I'm a hunter and, gun owner, educated gun

owner, you know, but I. Have friends who are real gun nuts that. That were totally fair, right? It's all specs. And I say that with all affection when, you know, it's. And so, you know, I would go overseas and spend my day, work day working with them, training them, helping them with, you know, whatever was broken or needed, upgrading whatever we were doing over there. And sometimes I would, like I said, 8 to 10 months a year overseas. I would be doing this by myself most of the time. And so after the workday was done,

it's just me in my hotel with nothing really to do. And, you know, I grew up when I was growing up. I counted these. Up one time and it was. Between kindergarten and 12th grade. I went to like. 35 different schools, like I was changing school sometimes. Every few months. Not a good sign. Sorry. Yeah, well, you know, one of the good habits I picked up from it was reading because it, you know, books were what gave me a sense of. Continuity from environment to environment to environment. Right? I'm in the middle of a book

and I moved to another school, and I have to adjust to that. But I'm still reading this. Book and it sort of patches me over. And that became sort of. The background reality of my life. As you know, I sort of moved around in this unpredictable. Way, like for most of my early years, I still have this, this thread that was coherent that I Was following, you know, consistently. And so it definitely helped with a sense of stability like that. And this implanted this idea that, you know, like I take refuge in books. Yeah. It's

it, you know, they, they if I'm anxious, a lot of people if they're anxious, they can't sit down and read a book because they can't sit still. Books make they make My anxiety go away. It's what they do for me. And so, you know, I'm just a nerd, is what I'm saying. Basically, write a nerd. And, I had a lot of time to read books. And once I started really getting obsessed with the podcast, you know, it got to the point where I was waking up three hours early so that I could read and write

and Work on the podcast. If I was in a meeting and we were waiting for the next speaker to come in, I was working on the podcast launch. I was working on the podcast evening, I was working on the podcast. And I mean became like a real obsession, partly, partly because, I mean, left to my own devices, I would read books and talk to people About them. That's, you know, if I had $1 trillion and nothing to do with myself, I would want a whole library and a bunch of interesting people that talk to you

about these books. That's what I do anyway. Right? And so it was never really work. But yeah, that's the way you do it. You know, people who want to do. So a lot of people I know who Started doing history podcasts or other maybe not history, but, not sort of conversational, just, back and forth discussion podcasts where they do research and they want to make a presentation. Right. And a lot of these guys who started. Back when I started, you know, 2015, 2016. And, you know, my success up to this point, it's been Kind of

unique in the space. Now everybody wants to. Listen to a seven hour podcast on Jim Jones. And by the way, that's. Only the fifth out of. Seven episodes on the topic. Right? So that's not for everybody. And, you know, they they ask me sometimes like, how do I how could I do this as well as you do it? And other people who Are like aspiring. Podcasters have asked me that. And like you said, I don't like compliments. And so I get shy when people ask me things like that. But I tell them, and you're going

to object to this because you're a nice fellow. And everything, but like. I'm not that smart. I'm not. That's it's nothing like that. I work on this. You have to like if you want to do something like this, you have to be willing to get up a little early to use your lunch hour to. You got to spend time in books. You got to read and read. And then when you think you've read enough, you got to read some more. And because there's just there's so much out there, like I said, I had experience after

I had read six books on just the pre 1948 period of, you know, the Zionist Israeli-Palestinian conflict story. And I knew nothing, Tucker. I knew nothing like embarrassingly, nothing worse than nothing because like, at least before I read, was the. Illusion of knowledge. Yeah. At least before I had read the books, I would just be repeating to you whatever I had Heard, you know, Benjamin Netanyahu say, or somebody or whatever, somebody like on TV, I at least would have just been repeating that this was worse. This was like the full Midwest kind of in, you

know, in production where, where you know, enough to really embarrass yourself. And I'm glad that I sort of Recognized that at the time. And I went back and, like, scrapped the whole thing, didn't start it for another year after that, probably because I just realized that, you know, I got to get deeper into this. And as I have moved through, different topics over the years, because I don't do an Israel Palestine podcast, I do a history podcast, and, I choose topics based on. What I want to read about. You know, that's all it is. Like,

usually while I'm working on one, something as I'm sort of getting into the second half, finishing it up, I can see the finish line on the thing I'm working on now. It'll get harder and harder to discipline myself to stay on that Topic, because there's something that's pulling me away, too. I know the feeling. Yeah. And so it's like a feeling of relief where like, I finish it and now I can I already know the next topic because it just emerged kind of naturally. And I move on to that. And sometimes they're very, very different.

I've done, like I said, a, you know, 32 hour series On the Jonestown cult, which turned into you say, how do you do 32 hours on that? I told the the story of, you know, the 32 hours. Yeah. Well, the reason for that and I didn't know this going in. I never know exactly how this is going to unfold when I'm going in, unless it's like sometimes I'll do a single. Episode and I kind of know the Story. But when I start a long series, it's going to take me a year and a half to

put out every episode. I don't necessarily know how it's going to turn out. And, you know, when you look at something like the Jonestown cult and for people who don't know, in 1978, everybody's heard the phrase, don't drink the Kool-Aid. Right? And that's what people know about Jonestown, basically, is that Christianity sometimes goes off the rails. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Thousand people, you know, 916 people committed mass suicide in the jungles of Guyana, right at the direction of this of this preacher, Jim Jones. That's the most people know about it. When you open any book

about it, Even mainstream books about it, which, you know, again, most people don't get to that point. This won't be in any of the documentaries. For the most part, that you see. We open to like page 1 or 2 of any book about it. And the first thing you see is that 75% of the people that died out there were African Americans. Yeah. Black women from Oakland. From Oakland. But if they were over 40 or 50 years old, there weren't really any black people in Oakland until the Second World War. So these were migrants who

had come from the South as part of the Great Migration. Right. And you'd think like, if 75% of the people that died out there were Mexican immigrants, First generation Mexican, that that that wouldn't be a part of the story. That would be like this story, like what is going on here, right? Not just how did this religious cult get out of control? And like, like you really need to understand that I never knew that. I always knew about Jonestown on the surface level, but I saw that I'm like, I have to understand this better. And

so, You know, it drew me like deep into the history of African American, life in America, post post-slavery and really, really deep into the. Great. Migration and the forces that drove it and the experiences that African Americans encountered when they got to the cities of the North and West when they left the rural South. And, you Know, when I get emotional, when I think about the Jonestown story, I worked on that for a long time. I read literally every single book or thing that's been written about it, and there's a. Lot of docu, I think

it was. UCSB had an interview here. I mean, there's just a lot out there. That not only that, the FBI sees 1000 hours of tapes from Jonestown after the suicide, and they're all available online. I've listened to all of it, and most of it twice, like for months. I had this guy's sermons in my head. I had there like backroom midnight meetings where they're all going through struggle sessions, screaming at each other, beating each other up. All of their recordings Of these late night torchlight sessions that they would have, out in Guyana in the jungle.

You know, if you watch most documentaries about Jonestown, it's all about the craziness of the last year, which is when they were all actually in Jonestown in Guyana. These people have been together for 20 years. You know, he started his first Church in the 1950s. And this is a guy. Jim Jones, who, you know, in 1953, in Indianapolis, which was a KKK stronghold at the time, you know, because the of the. Second KKK was not really a. Southern anti-black movement, it was more of a midwest and northern urban, anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish. And so, Indianapolis was

one of the strongholds. And he lived. That's where he lived at the time. He's like a 23 year old guy. He was born 39, maybe 24 years old, starting his first little Methodist church in this storefront with folding chairs, you know, and he and his congregation are going out and boycotting stores in 1950, three years Before anybody heard of a bus boycott or anything like that, you know, with Martin Luther King, he's going out there and doing that, getting death threats from KKK leaders, getting death threats from the American Nazi Party, trying to integrate these

businesses. Right. And so this is a true believer, like when it comes, is he his family? He adopted, the first African. He was the first white family to adopt an African American child in the history of the state of Indiana. And this was back in the 50s. And he was, you know, if Jim Jones had been hit by a bus in 1962, they moved out to, they moved out. To the Bay area in 1965. He would be remembered today as one of the early. Pioneers of the American civil Rights. Movement. And like, revered for it,

he really would be right. And so I started to read about this stuff, and I and I realized that there was this theme that was starting to emerge. In all of my podcast, for the most part. The Israel Palestine one, in this one, which is here's this guy who really is an idealist. And I'm not saying he didn't have pathologies, you know, that were already inherent in there, although I'm very suspicious of accounts when, you know, whenever I'm reading a book about in all of the Jones, Jim Jones. Biographies are like this, and you have

to learn how to. Like, read past it. But you're reading a book about Stalin, and the author went and found and interviewed somebody who was in sixth grade with him or something, and they're like, you know, he got tripped on the playground one time and stood up and said, I'll get revenge on all of you one day. And that's when I knew. I'm I just I'm very suspicious of all those stories, you know? And so you have this guy who's a True idealist, and he could be, you know, whether or not his, his, his politics

were correct or whether his, you know, was misguided. That's a separate question. He was an idealist. Like, you really believe these things. He really did treat people in a way that in 1953, in America was uncommon, you know, and. And so you have this idealist, just like with the, in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict at the beginning, you read all the early accounts of the early Zionists, and it's all about it's just it's soaring rhetoric about returning to the Holy Land, and it's people who have really grand, idealistic visions of what it's going to be like when

they get down There. And then people run into the rocks of reality. And how we respond to that? Pressure, you know, really defines the, the destiny of a movement and the people in it. And there are always there are always going to be people and sometimes entire movements, that the. Pressure ends. Up, you know, turning them off the road a completely, you know, going into a ravine. That's kind of what happens. So if you look at, like, the Jonestown story, the reason it turned into a 32 hour series. Is. Like I said, they started in

the 1950s doing stuff that you would recognize as just early civil rights stuff. You know, boycotting a local business to get them to integrate. Right around the time a few years before. But like the Martin Luther King was going to start that kind of thing. And then so you have Greensboro, you have these things and their trajectory as an organization, the People's Temple. I realized, I mean, they that that trajectory from about 53 to 1978, when everything came to an end, that 25 year trajectory follows almost to the month. I mean, it is uncanny, like

how perfectly it follows. It makes perfect sense because of how plugged into it they were. It follows the trajectory of the civil rights and protest movement in America through its rise. Its peak, its radicalization, And then its decline in the late 60s and then into the 70s, into insanity and death. I mean, and it is. I mean, it's almost a. You can tell the story of Jonestown and give a month by month account of that process of those protest movements being radicalized and. Turning to violence and insanity in the 60s and. 70s. And so it

became a vehicle for that. And that's what that's what really the story is about. It's about that period of American history from the mid 50s up until about 1980. So how'd you like to cut your cell phone bill in half? Every single month is probably pretty high. Have you checked out recently? Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile want you to believe that you have to have something called unlimited data, and maybe you're in the small percentage that do need unlimited data, whatever that is. But for most people, you do not need unlimited data, and you certainly shouldn't

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pure talk.com/tucker and you will save an additional 50% off your first month. That's pure talk. One word.com/tucker. Switch your cell phone service to a company you can be proud of. Do business with. Only buy what you need. The number of true, well known Democratic politicians who were patrons of the People's Temple is quite amazing. Willie Brown was one of them. Oh yeah. But I mean, every mayor of San Francisco. I have specific contempt for all of those people. Just because. You know, it wasn't just that when Jim Jones was a power broker in San. Francisco,

that they would go give a speech at the church because they're trying to bring out votes or. Something. You know, you had Angela Davis, you had Huey Newton, you had a lot of these other people who when these people were in Jonestown. And I mean, you got to remember a lot of the first of all 300 of those thousand or so. People were kids. Another 300 to 400 were people. Over, like, 60 years old. Okay. So You I mean, that's who's out there. Two, third, fully two thirds of the people who committed suicide out there

were kids or. Senior citizens, right? And as they're approaching this point of just maximum paranoia, maximum group psychosis down there, you know, when you listen to the recordings that they've that they left for us and they're just getting increasingly Deranged, they're certain that the CIA is going to come and kidnap their children and put them through brainwashing. This is not just Jim Jones in his charisma telling these people this, this, these people understood themselves as a revolutionary movement. And they were true believers like they were true believers. These people, a lot of people like to

say that at The end, it was basically murder. These people were forced to do this. These people were, at least for the vast majority of them, were not forced to do it. They believed in what they were doing, and they they. Jim Jones by that point was almost like a figurehead of the movement, to be honest with you. He was just sort of the titular leader. But, the movement, the organization was running itself, and You had a bunch of true believers who were out there trying to start a revolution and start a new society in

the jungle. And in the last few months when they're approaching just maximum. Psychosis and paranoia. You've got, like Angela Davis, Huey Newton, Harvey Milk, like a lot of these. I think you might, you know, you got killed Shortly after, who are literally calling in to Jonestown and being put on the speaker for everybody to listen, saying, we know that, like, you know, the government is after you. And we just want you to know that we have your back and, you know, there's just the whole world is coming after you, but we're there for you. We're

on your side. This is a bunch of people who are, Like, approaching a crisis. Point of paranoia and psychosis is going to lead to their mass death within a few months. And that's what these people. Are doing, calling in, just. Feeding into it. And, you know, it makes me sick because you have people. And I know this wasn't maybe supposed to be just a Jonestown thing, but this topic, again, like It's it affected me a lot. Right. Like there's this one woman, she was the lead singer of the Jonestown band. And the night before they

all committed suicide. Leo Ryan, the congressman was there and his entourage was there, and they put on a performance and there's a video. Jackie Speer became a member Of Congress yourself. Yep. And there's a video of, that night, you know, it was, in the in they show a musical performance. And this woman, who's the lead singer and band conductor is up there, and she's this, you know, this African American woman, beautiful, great voice up there. Like, really, Like. Confidently commanding the stage and like. In really in her element. Right. Well, her back story was back

in Indianapolis, Jim Jones, when his family had lived there. Knew her when she was a little girl. Just a little bit of her mom came to the church some. Something like that. And after Jim Jones and his people left. You know, she got abandoned by her mother. She ended up. But being pimped out by her drug dealer boyfriend when she was 1516 years old, and she's living her life on the streets, being beat up by this guy who's forcing her to go out and, in. Prostitute for him, you know. And that's her life. And now

she's about 20. She committed suicide 3 or 4 times at this point. And now she's 20. And the Jonestown people make a trip back to. Indianapolis because they would go around the country and their busses and, you know, speak at churches and hold events and. Stuff. And so they go back there. And she just kind of knew who the Jones family was, she said. They treated her with kindness and her mother with kindness when she was a little girl. And she's in a in the depth of suicidal depression, drug addiction, you know, it's the close

to the end, right? And. Man, even in the podcast when I was Recording, it makes me emotional because they got out there. She, she went there to the event when the, when the Jonestown people came in because she just remembered that like, these people had been kind to her 15 years ago. You know, when she was a little girl. And so she came out to see and Jim Jones sees her and immediately recognizes her and starts talking To her, just, you know, friendly everything. The people start talking to her and she starts telling them kind

of about how her life's gone since that time. And he said, oh, well, great, like you said, not great. But he said, oh, well, come with us. Hop on the bus. Let's go. Like we've got houses. We got a whole community out here Like, you know, you know, we can find a job for you until you do something. Whatever. Yeah, come on out. And so she did. She did. And she went out there and they cleaned her up. They got her off drugs. They took this broken, destroyed, abused woman. And put her in an environment

where it. And again, you have to understand that even this, this psychotic movement, you know, the way it turned out, this part was genuine. They put her into an environment where, she felt like she belonged, and it really was. The people cared about her, and she cared about the people there, you know? And so she ends up being the Bandleader. She's like a super talented magician, musician. And she's writing the song. She's leading the the practices for the band. She's a lead singer in everything. And. You know, and she died out there with all the

rest of them. You know, with all the rest of those old people and kids. And everybody. Else. She, She committed suicide with everybody else the night after. You see that video? That's amazing that you watch that video. I mean, I don't think I'd want to see something like that. I had to. Yeah, well, of course, you know, I had to. I have a rule. And I've broken this rule once, and and it's a probably an episode. I'm just, like, least proud of. Maybe. Although it's a lot of. People's favorite episode. Like, I have a rule

that I don't start a podcast until I feel like I can at least understand where everybody in. This story is coming from. I didn't start the Israel Palestine Podcast until I felt like I could See how the Zionists saw things, how the Arabs saw things, how the British saw things, and how their behavior toward each other made sense. To them in the context of of. Their own world. And I did the same thing with Jonestown, which was a challenge because, I mean. Talking about, you know, a psychotic cult leader who. Yes. Who dragged his people

to their deaths, you know, in the jungle there meaningless deaths. There were literally people, Tucker. Who? Many hundreds of people, parents who were injecting cyanide into their babies mouths, and watching them froth and twitch until they were sure they were dead. And then they could take the suicide, drink themselves. Because. They had done that. This is almost 1000 people. It was one woman who, was in the Capitol. She wasn't. She was at their office in the Capitol. She wasn't out at the, at the actual compound. And when she got the call, like, it's time we're

doing it. She slashed her kids throats and then stabbed herself in the heart. I mean, this is. And yet. These people loved each other. These people actually did believe, like in equality. They believed in like human brotherhood and all these things. And she slashed her kids throats. And you, if you're going to tell a story like that, you can't do what all of the biographies of Jim Jones do. You know, they all talk about, like, these weird things about him as a kid and something where it was all there at the beginning, and it was

just the the gradual, you know, the gradual flowering. And unfolding of this psychosis that had always been in there. And all these other people just got sucked into it. It's just this total nonsense. You really have to understand how People could get to a place like that from where they were. You know, everybody doesn't matter who you're talking about. Uday Hussein. There was a time. And I always try to keep this in mind because. I mean, it's like it's one of the governing thoughts as I go through any of these stories. Uday Hussein, Joseph Stalin

I don't care who you're talking about. There was a time where that was a little three year old kid. That's right. And they weren't evil. They weren't, who they became. And so how did they become what they ended up being? You know. So I think you're approaching this, which is why I am so Impressed by what you do and want more people to experience it. You're approaching this from the most honest possible perspective and allowing readers, viewers, listeners to come to their conclusions with them with the maximum amount of information. Which you're not doing is

using history as a weapon, a cudgel, or as a kind of propaganda Tool to make policy. So in that, you almost stand alone. I would say right now, I'm really interested in the project that you're working on now. I'm a little bit baffled by it, so I'm just going to answer my own questions that you are working on, World War two, which has to be even more than the Kennedy assassination, the most written about event in human History. I can't think of one that has occasion more book. So, why World War two? Well, you know,

I was giving a talk to. A in on, a graduate history class at the University of Vienna a while back online, giving him a talk. And. One of the things. That I said to them, and I was curious how this was going to go over in Austria. But it seemed to go overall. Right. And as I told them over the next few decades, like, look. Any time you have a historical event for us in. The United States, it's a civil rights movement. It's World War two. And to a certain degree, it's still The Civil War.

Everything in between and before those things. You can do whatever you want. Doesn't matter. You think that the Russians were to blame for World War One and not the Germans? You think it was all British conspiracy? You can do whatever you want. It's fine, because that's not part of the founding mythology of the order that we're. All living in at this time, right? Those other things are. And whenever you have a historical event that is mythologized. And when I say that, I don't mean myth. Like it's a myth, that's a lie. It's not what I

mean. I mean that. It's it's a formative part of how we all. Understand the world we're in, or at Least officially like the official world, like. The structures we live. Structures we live in. It's the justification. For a lot of those structures, right? Whenever you have those things, you're going to have taboos. You're going to have certain ways that certain topics have to be Talked about that are going. To guarantee that that that that topic is just profoundly misunderstood. And I told the students. At the University of Vienna, I said, over the next couple decades.

Like, we're going to get to a point where the interwar period. And the Second World War are far Enough away that people can actually start taking a more honest look at everything that went on. And it is going to be the most fruitful place that any aspiring historian can. Dive into, because we spent the last 70 years, I mean, in Europe's case, like literally throwing people in jail for looking. Into the wrong corners, right? So there's so and even even. Particularly in Austria. Right, right. And so even in the united was invaded country. So I'm

not exactly sure why it's so important. Yeah. Well I mean that's a big topic, but I mean, even the United States where, where, where you're not. Going to go to jail necessarily for, for doing that, you might have your life ruined and lose your job. You might absolutely go to jail in this country nowadays. You might. Yeah. But, you know, if you could write a book, you could take any. Angle on any one. You're not going to ever get a job or have a publisher want to publish anything, but. You could do it. You can

go out on. The street corner and stand on a box and say whatever it is you think. But even even still. You know, that event is really it's it's it's it's such a core part of. The state religion that there are emotional triggers built in to people since childhood that almost prevent them. From, from taking An. Approach that would, that would that might lead. Them. To information or to conclusions. That are not part of the state religion version of that event, you know? And and again, you're going to find that I'm sure the Peloponnesian Wars

were like that for the ancient Greeks. Well, by the way, the American Revolution, which is now totally irrelevant, to modern America, unfortunately, was like that. The life of Lincoln was like that. Lincoln was a very complicated guy. It's not an endorsement of slavery. Well, speaking for myself, I think slavery is disgusting. It's the worst thing. If what you're saying is absolutely right, it's not just the Second World War that is sort of uniquely censored or, protected the mythology around it. It's it's every event that's central to a nation's understanding of itself. And then that changes

over time. So do you think that we are far enough away 80 years from that war, where you can try to take as an objective look as you can, and that will be allowed? No, I don't I think we've got a little, little ways to go on that. But. I hope I can kind of start to break the ice a little bit, you know, because. Like. Here's the problem with doing something like that, and this is something I'm very aware of, is I research it and start to Work on the project, is that when. You

have a mythologized. Historical event that is told, there is I mean, again, you go to a lot of places in Europe. It's a legal, requirement over here. It's not quite that, but it almost might as well be, where that. This event is going to be described from a certain perspective. You're going to approach it a Certain way, you're there, there's certain things you're not allowed to question. You have to like. Literally, it's a crime to ask questions. Yes. Then whenever that's the case, when you try to add. Any type of balance to that account, when

you try to tell the story in a way that brings other approaches and other perspectives Into it, it's going to look like you're trying to justify those other things. That's just how. It's going to seem to people who are very locked into this side. And so if you start talking about the interwar period and how Weimar, the Weimar culture, you know, after the First World War led to something like, the rise of the National Socialists and why the people who embraced that movement did embrace it. In a way that's not. Just, you know, was because

they were, you know, you had this country, Germany, a sophisticated. Cultural, you know, super. Power. That was fine. And then they all turned into demons for a few years, and now they're Fine again. Like, that's sort of the official story. And I think deep down, we all know that makes no sense. Everything has a cause, you know, again, to go back like Uday Hussein got to be Uday Hussein from that three year old little kid. Jim Jones got to be Jim Jones from being that guy who was just in earnest. Local. Indianapolis civil rights activist.

They all got to be those people that led to the chaos that they eventually invited into the world and onto themselves and their. People through their experiences in the world and through a series of decisions, decision points that at the time. If you can. If you can bring Yourself to step into the shoes of those people. And it's not a comfortable thing to do. I mean, when I, I literally listened to probably 2000. Hours of Jim Jones's sermons and him screaming at his people and just going insane. To the point where I was dreaming about

this guy for months. I would have my headphones in as I Was working listening to Jim Jones. It's really hard. Yeah, I know. You the only guy in the office doing that. I think I'm probably the only person in the world that's done that. And so, like, I got to the point where I felt like I knew this guy. I, I could notice from tape to tape, I would hear. Changes in his tone of voice. And I knew. Whether he was. High on amphetamines that day or if he had taken his barbiturates already. And now

he's. You could just. I felt like I knew this guy. And their tapes, by the way, they're not all from, like, one year. They're from like 15, 20 years. Right. So you can you can Watch this process of, of, of a descent into madness as it's happening and. You know, to get to a point where you can bring yourself to step into the shoes of. Any other human being and understand that as much as. You know, as much as it makes. You uncomfortable, it is just a human being. And at the very, very like base

Level, their motivations are the same as yours. Their needs are the same as yours. But that we're very we're multivariate species that can go. A lot of different directions. Right. And, and to be able to do that and force yourself to. Do it is the key. And so when you do something. Like that with. I mean, again, like a historical event like World War two, where. I mean, the. One rule is that you. Shall not do that. You shall not look at. This topic and try to understand how the Germans saw the world. Like how?

The whole thing from the First World War on up to the very end of the War. How these people might have genuinely felt like they were the ones under attack. That they were the ones being victimized. By their neighbors and by all these. By the Allied powers. You know, and you can you can handle that. With a sentence, you know, you can wave it off and say, well, you know, They're justifying themselves, their rationalizing, their evil or whatever you want to say. But again, that's it. I think we're getting to the point where. That's very

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myth 100%. And. And you need them. You know, like, I don't think that we're necessarily. Better off now that people are. Now that people are able to just freely tear down a statue of George Washington because he was a slave owner. Right. And so, like, there are sacred, symbols. And national myths. That any group of. People are going to need to hold themselves together. And there's also peril in knowing the truth about things. I mean, if when we finally find out how President Kennedy was murdered in 1962, when we finally find out what all these

weird lights in the sky or at night, we really get to the truth of that. Will we be better off or not? I mean, don't you know those are fair questions? I don't know the answer. But but let me just say what I completely agree with you in particular. Any unifying myth you know is important. I'm just highly distressed by the uses to which the myths about World War Two have been put in the context of modern foreign policy, particularly the war in Ukraine. And, but but not just the war in Ukraine. So many others.

You know, Churchill's the good guy. Neville Chamberlain is the bad guy. You know, it's just it's two Pat. It's obviously wipe it all. But it also was justified, like the killing of millions of people since the end of the Second World War. And so I do think it's fair to ask, like what what really was Going on. So one for example. And I'm American. I'm not English. So I don't have any weird motive in asking this, but how would you assess Winston Churchill? I got in trouble with my podcast partner, Jocko Willink one time because

he's a New England Dutchman who's his family. It's near and dear to their Dutch, but. Very near and dear to their heart that Winston Churchill is a hero. Well, everyone, everyone thinks that. He really. Thinks. That. And I told him that. I think, and maybe I'm being a little a little hyperbolic. Maybe. But I told him maybe. Trying to provoke him a little bit, That I thought Churchill was the chief villain of the Second World War. Now, he didn't kill the most people. He didn't. Commit the most atrocities. But I believe and I don't really

think, I think when you really get into it and tell the story. Right. And don't leave anything out. You see that he was primarily responsible for that war becoming What it did, becoming something other than an invasion of Poland. Or just, I mean it every step of the way, like people are very often, I find, surprised to learn there's there's a. Two step process. But why don't you make the case make the case for that. Okay. So you've made your statement. A lot of people are thinking, well, Wait a second. You said Churchill, my childhood

hero, the guy with the cigar. Yeah. Well, in the next thought. That comes into their head, he's saying, is that. Oh, you're saying Churchill was the chief villain, therefore his enemies, you know, Adolf Hitler and so forth, were. Stalin. Protagonists, right? They're the good guys. If you think he's a villain, that's not the case. That's not what I'm saying. You know. Germany. Look, they they put themselves into a. Into a position in Adolf. Hitler's chiefly responsible for this. But it's all regime is responsible for it, that when they Went into the East. In 1941. They

launched a war where. They were completely unprepared. To deal with the. Millions and millions of. Prisoners of war, of local political prisoners and so forth that they were going to have to handle. They went in with no plan for that. And they just threw these. People into camps. And millions of people ended up dead there. You know, you have, you have like, letters. As early as July, August 1941. From commandants of these makeshift camps that they're setting up for these millions of people who were surrendering or people that are rounding up and. They're. So it's

two months After a month or two after Barbarossa was launched, and they're writing. Back to the high command in Berlin, saying. We can't feed these people, we don't have the food to. Feed these people. And one of them actually says. Rather than wait for them all to slowly starve this winter, wouldn't it be more. Humane to just finish them off quickly now? And so this is like. Two months into the invasion, right? And like my view on this, you know, I argue with my Zionist. Interlocutors about this all the time with regard to the current

war in Gaza. But, man, like maybe you as the, you know, the Germans, you felt like. You had to invade to the east. Maybe you thought that Stalin was such a threat. Or that if he launched a. Surprise attack and seize. The oil fields in Romania, that you would now not have the fuel to actually respond and you'd be crippled and all of Europe would be under threat, and whatever it was, whatever it was like, maybe you thought you had to. Do that, but at the end of the day, you launched that war with no

plan to care for the millions and millions of civilians and prisoners of war that were going to come under your control. And millions of people died because of that, right? You know, you can look at it and say like. You know it. Well, yeah. So get back to your like Your main question about Churchill. You know, if you go to. 1939, when the Germans and the Soviet Union invade Poland. As soon as. That war's wrapped up on the German side, Hitler starts firing off peace proposals to Britain. France? Because they had already declared war. He

was. He didn't expect them to. Declare war, actually. I think there's, you know, a famous scene where he kind of throws a fit when he finds out that they actually did. Did they did do that? And so he doesn't. Want to fight France. He doesn't want to fight Britain. He feels that's going to weaken Europe. When we've got this huge threat to The east, the communist threat over there. And he starts firing off peace. Proposals, says, let's not do this like we can't do this. And of course, you know, year goes by. 1940 comes around

and they're still at war. And so he launches his invasion to the West, takes over France, takes over. Western and northern Europe. Once that's done, the British have. You know, escaped at Dunkirk. There's no British force left on the continent. There's no opposing force left on the continent. In other words, the war is over and the Germans won. Okay. But by. But by what point? Fall of 1940. Right. So there's just there's Literally no opposing force on the on the continent and throughout that summer. You know, if Hitler is firing off radio broadcasts. Giving speeches,

literally sending planes. Over to drop leaflets over. London and other British cities, trying to get the message to these people that Germany does not want. To fight you, like we don't want to Fight you offering peace proposals that, you know, said, you keep all your overseas colonies. We don't want any of that. We want Britain to be strong. The world. Needs Britain to be strong, you know, especially as we face this communist threat and so. Forth. Like this. This is what's going on. And I think that if there were People in Britain who, who if

they hadn't put. It this way, if they hadn't been so successful at delegitimizing, the peace approach by demonizing Neville Chamberlain and so forth and holding him responsible for the invasion of Poland. That people would have been they would have understood, like we don't need. Another. Repeat of the First World War. You know. We don't, you know, which is not what ended up. Happening. But that's what everybody thought. Was going to happen. And so Churchill, I mean, you have a guy who once he Churchill wanted a war, he wanted to fight Germany. And the reason that

I, I don't begrudge him that, you know, people can national leaders, you can fight whoever you want. If, you know, if you feel like your long term, the long term interests of the British Empire, threatened by the rise of a powerful continental power like Germany. And you need to check that those are great power games, and you play them the way you feel like you. Need to play them. That's fine. The reason I resent Churchill so much for it. Is that he kept this war going when he had no way, he had no way to

go back and fight this war. All he had were bombers. He was literally, by 1940, sending firebomb fleets. Sending bomber fleets. To go firebomb. The Black Forest. Just to. Burn down sections of the Black. Forest. Just just rank terrorism, you know. Going through and, starting to. You know, what eventually became just the carpet bombing, the saturation bombing of civilian neighborhoods, you know. To kill is the purpose of which was To kill as many civilians as possible. And all the men were out in the field. All the fighting age men were out in the field. And

so this is old people. It's women. And children. And they knew that. And they were. Wiping these places out as gigantic scale Terrorist. Attacks, the greatest. You know, scale of terrorist attacks you've ever seen in world history. Why would he do that? Because it was the only means that they had to continue fighting. At the time. You know, they didn't have the ability. To re invade Europe. And so he needed to keep this war Going until he accomplished what, you know, what would you hope to accomplish? We know now there's actually a really great series

of books. It's it's one of the best I recommend to everybody. But it's really expensive now. And, it's six long volumes called History of British Special Operations in the Second World War. And one of. The books gets into the level of, just. The extent. Of media. Operations, propaganda operations, everything that they were running in the United States to eventually drag us into that war. And that was his whole plan. His whole plan was we don't we don't have a way to fight this war ourselves. This war is over. We need either the Soviet Union or

the United States to do it for us. And that was the plan, and. Kept the war going long. Enough for that plan to come to fruition. And to me, that's just it's a craven, ugly way to to fight a war. And, what was the motive? Well, you know, Churchill's got a Long. And complicated history. I mean, he's, you know, he's somebody who. That was the driest smile I think I've ever seen. Yeah. Well, look. I think on one level, there was a sense that Churchill was sort. Of humiliated by his performance in The First. World

War. As the head of the Admiralty, and he was out in the cold for a long time. I mean, Gallipoli. Yeah. And which, you know, was. That was his operation, you know, and. So he was. Rightly held responsible for that and seen as responsible for one of The great disasters that the British suffered during that. War. And so I think part of it is probably kind of personal. You know, he wanted redemption. He wanted to go out there and like, prove that he's the the warlord, that they can go out there in and fight this

big war. Probably I think part of it I like I read. About Churchill and he strikes me as a psychopath. But he's also. A sort of. I mean, he was a drunk. He was very childish and strange ways people would talk about how as an adult, like at, you know, as prime minister, they'd find him in his room and he's like playing with action figures like war toys and army men and stuff, and would get mad when people would, would Interrupt him, you know, when he was just. This is a strange, strange fellow, you know.

His all those things. But then you get into, you know, why was why was Winston Churchill such a such a. Dedicated booster of Zionism from early on in his life? Right. And there's. Ideological reasons. One, you know. Like in. 1920. He wrote a kind of infamous now article called Zionism Versus Bolshevism. And he basically. Makes the case that. Which was which was true to a large extent that all. Of Eastern Europe, the Pale of Settlement, which is where the vast Majority of Jews lived other than the United States, which is where a lot of them

had had traveled to. That. That area. Had been had become so engulfed by a revolutionary spirit. That all of the young Ashkenazi. Jews who were over there were getting swept up into it. It was. The 60s here on. Steroids, right? And in a much more serious it ended up being destructive way. And this is 1920. So as you shortly after the Bolshevik Revolution. Basically. The point of his paper. Is he says, these people who over there. They're all going one. Direction or the other. They're going to be Bolsheviks. They're going to be Zionists. We want

them to be. Zionists, you know? And so we need to support this. And so that was early on. There was an ideological component of it. But then as time goes on, you know, you read stories about Churchill going bankrupt and needing Money. Getting bailed out by people who shared his interests, you know, in terms of Zionism, but also, his hostility. Just, just. You know, I think his hostility, to put it this way, I think his hostility to Germany was real. I don't think. That he necessarily had to be bribed to have that Feeling. But, you

know, I think he was, to an extent, put in place by by people, the financiers, by a media complex. That wanted to make sure that he was the guy who, you know, who is who was representing. Britain in. That conflict for, for the, for a reason. And. You know, Churchill's a. Again, it's so hard. Because like, you know, especially in a short interview like this where. You have this guy. Who? I mean, he's a he's an Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Martin Luther King like type figure in the in the sort of Western consciousness, right? Yes.

And so people have so many. Assumptions in built in triggers, like when it comes to this guy, that it's hard. To talk about it because you're always thinking about. The triggers that you're setting off and your listeners. And I don't say that in a way of like, I don't want to offend anybody. No, no, I understand it's that it's, you know, you know, that things are. Going to be misunderstood. And so this is why I do 30, our podcast. Well, it's just it's interesting because I, you know, as a follower of your work, I don't

see you as hostile to the West. I see you actually as a product of the West and as a defender, really Of the West for its values. You know, in your approach, in your open mindedness, rigor, you know, belief in accuracy and honesty and those are Western notions. And yet Churchill has been positioned and has been and really is accepted as like the defender of the West over the last 100 years. Yeah. And so maybe that's and I wonder why that is. I don't I mean, people can certainly take issue with any factual claims you're

making. I assume they're all right. They're consistent with what I think I know to be true. But why do you think Churchill has been presented in a way, in the way that he has? You know. Well, it's it has to do. With what you said earlier, right? Neville Chamberlain versus Churchill has been the binary model that has served as the chief rhetorical device for every conflict we've wanted to get into since then. Yes. You know, the entire Cold War. And then even after the Cold War, in the global war on terror is if you appease

them, you're Neville Chamberlain. Hitler's the, rather, Churchill's the one who saw all along. Where this was headed and was trying to warn people this, you know, Cassandra. And finally, because nobody listened to him, the war ended up breaking out and we were forced to, like, go stamp out this threat. And now it's a. Much bigger threat. Than it ever would have been if we just. Put a listing, say, if we had strangled it in its. Crib and it's justified every. Conflict. You know. Really, since the Second World War, everybody's the new Hitler, right? It's it's.

And so that it's a it's. Very valuable in that sense, but then also. You know, it really did become the. The founding myth of the of the global order that we're all living in now. Right? Because when you think about it, if you go back to think. About like, in Machiavelli's The Prince, right? And he's, he starts that book out kind of talking about why he's writing this book. And one of the things that he says in there is, you know, Italy is a bunch of broken up little principalities and states and stuff. And he's

looking over to the west, in the north and seeing countries like Spain, countries like France and England. Who like these are these are. Countries that are now starting to operate on a totally different scale, like on a national. Scale, First Nation states. And we have got to get it. Get it, get our act together and start learning how to act on that, on that level as well. And so that's why I'm writing this book. It's an instruction manual on like a call to action kind of. Well. As it goes on in the nation state starts

to put itself together in the modern era. You know, you you. Get to World. War One and you think about what the nation state is, right? Like history and to a large extent global like sort of global event style. History is governed to, to to a great degree by the military technology that's Prevalent at a given time. Right? So I, I don't think it's a it's an accident, for example. That. The ancient Greeks had like in a, a feeling of like citizen equality. That was unprecedented the world at the time. And they had the, their

chief combat system was the phalanx unit. Right. That. Required every man to stand by his, you know, his fellow citizen as a unit. And they. That's what their. Position in the world depended on people being able to do that. I don't think that's a mistake. Right? I don't think it's a mistake. When you look at other societies where. Charioteers, you know, really expensive branch chariots or, when, when you get to, like, the high Middle Ages where the heavy horse cavalry is just totally dominant on the battlefield, but, you know, so only the people who can

afford that kind of a weapon system, they're the ones who are going to rule on the people who don't like it. They really don't have any means to to, you know, Sort of express. Their own, political will. And so. As a nation state starts to get put together, you start to. Have. You start to have military, conflicts and just military buildups on a scale that nobody's ever heard of before. I mean, you're talking you get to this, the First World War, I mean, millions and millions Of men. And if you want to operate on that

level, if you want to operate on the level of great game global politics, you got to be able to put an army of several million men in the field, you know, and that's. It's why countries who tried their. Hand at, at imperialism, like the Dutch and the Belgians, you know, eventually they were just Like, you know, yeah, we're not doing it. And, see, because they saw that. And so, you know, when you look at the First World War in the Second World War, but really the First. World War is like the apotheosis of the nation

state in a lot of ways. Where you have, you know, if you if you think back. To like an old king in the early modern period or. Even now, forget about that. Look at like Louis the 14th. The Sun King, right? Powerful as any monarch in Europe, like for hundreds of years, his actual ability to. Reach into the local affairs of some village and tell people how to act or what to think. Pretty limited. Very limited. Like we think, you know, because of Movies in TV. That a monarch is sitting on his throne and he

just orders this and it happens like God saying, let there be light or. Something, head him. Yeah, yeah. And it's just they didn't. Have that kind of reach, you know, they had. Influence and they but they had like, like any modern, Individual politician, they had to work through existing structures and systems to get their will. Actually carried. Out. And that meant making compromises. And they just didn't have the. Resources to like, you know. Technological resources, but also just human and financial resources to get down to the. Granular. Level of control that would become. Common when

with the rise of the nation state. And so you get up to the point where, you know, when the nations face off in World War One and you have countries that. I mean, when you look at the the level of efficient. Mobilization toward a single cause, You know, fighting the war. How the economy, how the government, everybody. Was on the same page. And, you know, they were fighting this war as whole societies, like. They they figured out a way that they could do with Louis the. 14th could never dream. Up. They could mobilize their whole.

Society for. War. And that was what you. Had to do if you wanted to compete on the level of Germany and France and so. Forth. And so what? Somebody like Churchill. During the First World War and probably. Actually the Second World War. As well. Most people, I think, Players in the Second World War, what they thought they were doing was that this was a war between nation states like World War One and so on and so forth. And it was not that we found out afterwards that it was not that. That there were two. Great

military land empires, multi-ethnic, multiracial, multicultural military land empires, the Soviet Union, the United States. That and when I say empire, obviously, like we don't think of the US pre-World War two in that way very much. But, you know, we didn't start out with a whole continent under our control. Right? We started out as 13 colonies, and we we grew through, a confrontation with and. Centuries long race war Against the natives. Right? I mean, that's that's really. It was a formative. Experience of, of America and in its early history. And so it's an empire in a

way, you know, not the way we normally like the like the British Empire, but I think you can call it that. And, you know, these two. Countries, that thing that Machiavelli was noticing when He's looking over at Spain and France, you actually had like Germany, for example. There's this idea. That the only reason that they did Molotov-Ribbentrop was because, you know, Hitler needed to buy time so he could eventually invade the Soviet Union later or something like that. Not exactly true. I mean, that. Obviously was talking. About the eventual conflict with the Soviet Union very

early in his career that was there. But by the time you get up to like. 1939, his views are starting to become more complicated on it, where he's starting to see the United States as the chief. The real chief threat. To not just to Germany, but to Europe, because he saw himself as The sort of European defender of Messiah guy. Right. So and he looks over at Joseph Stalin and says, you know, a lot of his people kind of. Thought this way. That this is not an. International communist movement anymore. Like, yeah, Trotsky has been

banned, Banished from the country, and his followers are all dead. You know, they were killed during the purges of the late 30s. These people are all are all gone. Those are all of the people. Who you know from the very beginning. After the. First World War, they saw Russia as the fountainhead of world. Revolution. And Stalin, he never quite Gave that up. You know, just like the United States. He saw it as his, as his duty to build up ideologically aligned allies and so forth. But if you really look at what happened in a lot

of the Germans saw it this way, you know, Stalin, what he did was kind of turn the Soviet. Union into like a national socialist nation state, really. You know, he kind of brought back The Russian Empire, and now it's called communists and stuff. But there's no. Goal to just set off global revolution. And then once that happens, the chips will follow. Where it fall, where they may. They kept inside the Kremlin. They kept all the paintings of Saint George, the patron saint of Russia, all the crosses, they they The whole style appeared. They're there. And

I have you don't. I mean, I have nothing good to say about Stalin. I don't either, but I don't I don't think it's been mis advertised a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And when I. Earlier, when I said that there's one episode that I have done where I Feel like I didn't do my duty to force myself to understand the perspective of the perpetrators. It was the one. That I did about the Soviet conquest of Eastern Europe after the Second World War and what they did in Germany and other places, and specifically Romania, which, as far

as I can tell, like so far after, you know, 30 years of reading history books is pretty much the Worst thing that ever happened. These, these prison experiments that they ran in Petoskey and other places in Romania after the Second World War are. That's. Not family listening, if you really want to. That the. Soviets did. Yeah. The Soviet Soviet advisers were there. It was carried. Out technically by the security and The and the Romanians themselves. But, but, you know, this was. A it was a program. Being run from Moscow. Right. And it's whatever you're thinking

it is out there. Whoever's listening or watching this, it's a thousand times worse. And I wouldn't recommend going and listening to my episode, The Anti Humans. Unless, unless you're prepared for that. So I'll just leave it at that. But I'll say like in that one. Like I just couldn't, I couldn't bring myself to put, I couldn't put myself in the shoes of. Of the. People who were doing those things. And I didn't really try. And it comes across much more Polemical than any of my other work. And a lot of people love it because it

does, you know, expose a lot of. The crimes that happened during that period and stuff. But I think. I think it's hard sometimes. I'll tell you one thing, as a I'm not a Stalin expert. I don't speak Russian, but I have read about Stalin my whole life. And one thing that I was very surprised to learn, that it came Out at right after the, everything collapsed in 91. And a British historian, a Russian speaker, got access to a lot of the Stalin archives, the personal archives. And I was amazed to read in this book, quarter

the Red czar. Amazing book. That is a great book. It is a great book. But the thing that it overturned, I mean, I'm older than you, so maybe you always knew this, but growing up, we didn't. Everyone thought Stalin was this bloodless technocrat, not a true believer at all. That was Lenin was certainly Trotsky seemed like a true believer. Zinoviev. Kamenev. You know, all the guys around him might have been, but he was not In your mind reading this, or he was actually a devout like, religious level communist, which either makes him more repulsive or

less depending on you. I could see it from either side, but it's definitely not what we thought he was. And what I loved about that was your view of some. It's a small thing, I guess for most people was a big thing for me to learn that. But your whole kind of accepted view of something can turn out to be utterly false. Like a lot of history is just completely fake. And so when you see someone who's diving in face first with like courage and honesty, you just have to applaud. That's why I just apply.

Can't wait. To find out what you conclude. We want to announce something big that we've been working on for months now. It's a documentary series called Art of the search. It's all behind the scenes footage shot by an embedded team that has never before seen footage of what it's actually like to run for president if you're Donald Trump. They were there at the Butler Township assassination attempt, for example, and got footage that no one Has ever seen before. And it's amazing. Become a member at Tucker carlson.com to see this series. Art of the shirt. Where

are you, by the way, in this process? Well, I'm currently working on a series I'm about. I'm probably going to do two more episodes on it. On the history of The American labor movement. It's not a it's not a narrative history of the entire labor movement. I pick, certain episodes. They talk about the Battle of Blair Mountain in one episode, do one on the the Haymarket affair. And really, it's about. The industrial wars of like, the late 18th century from, you know, Pittsburgh to Chicago and everything. I did one on, this 1968 teacher's union strike

in New York City. That's kind of famous now. Famous. Folks in hell Browns for. And, you know, that was, one that a lot of my research for the Jonestown podcast about the great migration of African Americans out of the South came in really handy. Because really what it's about is, You know, the it was a conflict in, the New York's political system like that centered around a school in Brooklyn, at a time when, you know, 75% of the teachers in New York City were Jewish. And, you know, New York is. It's such an interesting city

for the, you know, for the for the fact that, you know, it's obviously This, this multi-ethnic multi cultural city that over the years just, you know, was where everybody washed up for the most part on our shores. And from the Irish migrations to the Jewish and Italian migrations and everybody that came after that, there it was conflict and people had to figure out and eventually come to a settlement of like, how are we going to live here together? And I'll feel like we are being represented and so forth. And so you had this city where

again, like today, this sounds almost. It sounds like a different world in some ways where, you know, the teachers were pretty much all Jews. The transit workers, pretty much all Irish. The cops were mostly Irish. The firemen were most of the Irish, most of the construction trade, the dockworkers, things like that. They were all Italians and everybody kind of. It wasn't something like that's what they gravitated to. Sanitation, to. The sanitation. And yeah. That that was their. Economic territory. And they had certain neighborhoods that were theirs. And people kind of knew that. It's not like

a, you. Know, a Jew couldn't move into an Italian neighborhood or vice versa or something. But everybody knew that this was an Italian neighborhood, and it was going to stay that way. And they'd all kind of come to this settlement in a natural way, like it just it was an emergent order that came over the years. And when, and again, there was conflict at every stage of that, after the 1924 immigration law that essentially cut off European immigration and generally. Your immigration. In general, the cheap source of labor that industry turned to were African Americans

from the South. And so you saw over the course about 40 or 50 years. About 6 or. 7 million African Americans move out of the rural south to the northern and western cities. And it turned out when they got up there that. They had a lot of the same problems that they had had previously. But for. You know, various reasons, I think personally, the fact that, we Were in the post-Second World. War period. And we were in the middle of a. Cold War. That, you know, the the process of integrating these people into the system

as one of several, you know, because this was a great dream if you read. What what's the book? Nathan Glazer. And it's beyond the melting pot. You know that he wrote. And, they in a I think they wrote. That in 1971. And what they. Predicted in that book was Moynihan and Glazer. That's what it was. And they predicted in that book that, yeah, there's a lot of problems right now integrating the African-American and Puerto Rican Populations into the, you know, into the city. But what we're going to do, like, eventually, this has always happens, happened

in the past. Eventually, it's not going to be. Black and white like it seems right now. It's going to be Italian and Jewish and Puerto Rican and black. And so they're going to take their place as one of the ethnicities, like in the sort of Urban, political structure and social structure we have here. And when they. Look. Back on it in the I think it was maybe a 2012 edition, they sort of recognized that that was obviously a, you know, a prediction that that did not come true. They, you know, they sort of they get

into that. And so. But this the teacher strike. Oh, right. This was sort of 1968 was like, first of all, it was, at least in my reading of it, one of the pretty rare expressions of mass in open antisemitism may have been anti-Semitism, of course, but but but like for real in American history and it's and it doesn't seem to be remembered for some reason. No, it's it's remembered or misremembered, like right alongside the Crown Heights. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. Because, you know, it's one of those things. Look, I. Lived for a long time

in Los Angeles, right? I used to live in South LA when Those were all black neighborhoods down there. And you people think back to the Rodney King riots, or when they were watching The Fresh Prince of Bel Air or something, and he would go visit his friends down in Compton. And those were the black neighborhoods down there. Those are not black neighborhoods. Oh, I know. Those are all. Latino neighborhoods. And that transition was not accomplished peacefully. You know, there were and there are there are good studies and write ups about this, hundreds and hundreds of

random murders. Oh, yeah. Black people by, Mexican gangs, fire bombings of apartment buildings To drive these people out. Right now, you look at. Some drive the East. Bay. That's kind of, you know, if you look at all. The big cities in California, even, like it up in Oakland and stuff, they're all losing their black population. And the great migration out of the South to these cities is actually in reverse right now in a lot of like, Net, African Americans are moving back to the South and they're. Into the internal empire, or just like away from

the coast. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's right. That's what happens like a lot of the but it's a step by step process, right. They get priced out of Oakland and San Francisco and they move to Stockton and Sacramento. Oakland and those places go up to and they end up moving, you know, further inland. And that's a process. That's been going on for a long time. But like. When you look at what happened. In in Los Angeles, I mean, again, you're talking about hundreds and hundreds of random murders, fire bombings, just not of other gang members or

somehow I'm Talking about drive bys of other gang members. I'm talking about just a random black guy race killing. Yeah, killing people because of the color of their skin. And if those people had been, you know, who were doing that, were wearing white hoods, they would have called the US Marines and and for good reason, you know, but it's one of those things that nobody wants to talk about because it doesn't fit Neatly into one of our easy political. So that's what bothers me about the recording of history. I mean, I think it what happens

matters. Reality matters. And if you find that sort of everything that happens not just 80 years ago in Dresden, but things that are happening in like L.A. County 20 years ago, if they just disappear. You know, in some cases you can find them on Google. Like that's a level of manipulation that's like that's just mind control. That's that's really scary. And I think the propagandists throughout. The 20th century, ever since the sort of the rise of mass media, have really understood that that's exactly what it is, you know, Especially once it goes on for a

generation or two and kids are raised up, and this is what they're being taught because it. It. It forms. For them. They're there. They're not just their view of the world. But their view of themselves. Like our identities as individuals and our identities that we attach ourselves to collectively are all a result of the stories we tell ourselves. Right. And then we here we were growing up. And so if you change those stories. All of those things change as well. Okay. So that's a perfect segue to something. And I'm just itching to talk to you

about itching to get your view on. And that leads us back to Churchill. So Churchill is this great hero, defender of the West, savior of the West, the toughest man in the in world history. The only reason we're not speaking German. And he won the Second World War. Like that's what you ask anybody. That's just a fact. And yet if I go to his country, like, regularly. And it's, you know, it doesn't really even exist in any recognize where it's totally degraded. I try not to go there because it's so depressing. It's just so sad.

It's so broken. It's not the country of victors. It's the it's a defeated, completely defeated country that's subsequently been invaded. And so, like, how did That happen? How did right go to Japan and it's a full of self respect and order and cleanliness and like it doesn't look like it lost. Just like, what is that. Well, I think we ran a we ran an experiment, that tells us pretty well what that is. And we didn't know we were running the experiment at the time. But you had the Iron Curtain set up In all the countries

behind it, that were not. Exposed to incessant American world order Western propaganda for 70 years. They all they don't. Have the same problems. You go to. Hungary. Even a. Place like Poland, which obviously the leadership class of any of these Countries is, you know, you always have to be suspicious of them because, you know, they even. Romania, which is you said, suffered more than, you know, most countries. Yeah. And so but those countries like, they don't mind. And again, the. Tippity top. Leadership class might be one thing. You know, somebody went to the London School

of Economics or Something. But like. NATO money. Yeah. The people have. No problem saying no, this is a country. This is Hungary. This is a country for Hungarians. This is a Christian country. This is our country. They don't have a problem saying that. That is not. Something that anybody west of the Iron Curtain, for the most part, is comfortable. Loosening. Up a little bit, thank God. But, you know, the question is whether it's loosening up too late. You go to. A place like like Britain, go to a place like Germany. I mean, there's no country

on planet Earth that is, has been, Subjected to. A more pervasive and destructive psychological warfare campaign than Germany over the course of the Cold War. I mean. These people have very it just I mean, you really hope. That it's not the case, but you wonder if. If there's even the material that would be necessary to construct A psychological defense of their nation, their people. And the lesson that we took from World War two, and again, this wouldn't have been the lesson that any of our soldiers who stormed the beaches in Normandy would have taken or

anything like that. But, you know, the official kind of court history lesson. Is that. When Europeans start thinking In terms of group, they're very dangerous. And that process needs to be subverted. It needs to be eventually eliminated, like the possibility for that to happen again. Just Europeans, not Asians or Africans. Well. I, you know, I think, well, there's a lot of elements to that. I mean, part of it is. Part of it is the the. People that were victimized, during the Second World War were not victimized by, Africans. You know, people were. Obviously Chinese people

were victimized by the Japanese, but that's a it's a different. You know, China's China's got a very powerful immune system that kind of preserves them as, as A, as a culture. So does Japan, and so does Japan. And so. That's, you know, there's a little bit, a little bit. Different. But from a Western perspective, I think it's fair to say, and our leaders make the case implicitly, that it's really only when Europeans have a sense of themselves as Europeans, that the world is in Peril. But everyone else is fine to do that. Yeah. I mean,

you know, that's, they don't see those other people as a threat. You know, either because, the people who formulate these narratives don't live in those places or they don't have historical experience with those people, and so they don't see them as the same kind of threat. So so Germany is Totally self-hating place. It's a husk. Yeah. It's depressing as hell, though. Also wonderful, in a way. But it's going away. But they lost. At least you could say they lost two world wars in a row. Yeah, Britain won two world wars in a row. And if

anything, it's more degraded Than Germany. So, like, just to take it back to the first thing I said and I'll shut up and let you answer. But if Churchill is a hero, how come there are British girls begging for drugs on the street of London? And the place is, you know, it's just there in London is not majority English now. Like what? Well, the people who formulated the Version of history that considers Churchill a hero. They like London the way it is now. You know. And but that's not Victor. That's like the worst kind of

defeat, is it not? I mean, I'm just confused as. An English. Person who cares about England and. Yeah, absolutely. It is. I mean, it's. It's forget about. Victory and defeat. It's the worst thing that can happen. You know, if you look at what's going on over lately in, in England where you're having riots, you're having. These, you know, sort of budding. Violent confrontations between nationalists and the police and so forth. Which, you know, I think our natural we like order, right? Yeah. Like Europeans, we like order, order. And we see things like that. And we

have a natural aversion to disorder to to street violence, for sure. We might. Be, you know, war might be necessary, but disorderly mob violence, things like that, like, Immediately make us kind of take a step back because most of our experience with those things is really bad. And at the end of the day, like it is an unleashing of evil spirits no matter what the cause or the reason is. And yet when I look over there at what the British. People, some of them are trying to do. I. I kind of I refused to judge

them for, whatever, for. Doing whatever it is that they feel they have to do as their homeland, their ancient homeland, is being taken from them, because that is not something that can be walked back, that is permanent. That is something that ends your Existence as a people. Like, unless you're going to be like the Jews and, you know, go off into exile and sort of manage to maintain yourself, you and even the Jews, and restore that. They needed a little spot. Somewhere on. Earth. That was their special place to develop their culture and to work

things, work out their history among Themselves as a community of people, and the English people are having that taken from them. You know. The the Irish people. Ireland is on. Track to be minority Irish by like 2070. And you say, okay, hang on like. A. They never colonized anybody. B they were. Colonized and like got. The really. Nasty end of that. A lot of the time, you know, suffered a lot. They fought. For hundreds of years against. Brutal. British attempts to try to bring them into the British fold and squash that uniqueness, you know, that

they had out there. The British couldn't do it. And the British for a while there could do damn near anything. Yeah. Okay. And you spent a lot of time trying to impress Ireland a lot. Yeah. And it was a I mean, not only that, it was a, it was a chief. Priority for a lot. Yeah. Bring it to heal you. And you know we have a, we have a, a bit of a, Skewed. View of the British Empire just because I in there are a lot of things that are glorious and wonderful about the British

Empire, but the United States, like, we don't quite understand, like the. Way the, you know, how bad it was to. Fall on the wrong side of the Empire because they really treated us with kid gloves during the revolution, You know, that we. Had half a. Parliament that were on. What they did to the Boers. Yeah. Exact. Exactly. That's what you know. They could have done that. They created the concentration camp. Yes. Yeah. And they ran a lot of them during World War two, actually. Yeah. That's another thing. It's actually pretty awful is. Yeah. As soon

as the war broke out, Churchill had all of the German and Italian nationals in Great Britain all rounded up and thrown into concentration camps, where they would stay to the end of the war. This is 1939, and a huge number of those people were Jewish refugees who had come over From Germany to England. They were just rounded up and thrown in camps for six years. We also had the opposition party thrown in prison for the duration. Oswald Mosley and his wife, right after giving birth, you know, spent the duration people died. That doesn't look like

democracy to me. Are you saying that Zelensky is not running a democracy? I'm saying if you don't have elections and you're throwing priests in jail, if you're murdering people who disagree with you as he has, you know, you call it, that's like basically a pretty constant form of government throughout history. Yeah. It's fine. I mean, it's like less barbaric than most forms of government, actually, through history. It's not democracy. Yeah. So please don't lecture me anymore about that. Well, I mean, we've seen. This in the United States, even, obviously a much smaller scale crisis. Although

maybe not. Maybe it is an existential crisis for the people who are making the decisions. But ever since 2016. Yeah. Where democracy is great, We love democracy. But that's for normal times. It's not for World War two, right? It's not for when we've got insurrections going on. And sometimes, you know, you've got to take extraordinary measures that may not be democratic, but it's to preserved. It's always the excuse or the excuse of every always. It was Lincoln's excuse exactly. But can I. So the. What's happened to, the UK and Ireland is not accidental. Is there

any evidence that the people of those countries whose ancestors have lived there for thousands of years, or the indigenous peoples of those countries. That they wanted this, they wanted to be. I mean, certainly not. The the majority of the people who lived there. Right. Obviously, like, you can go. To any Western country the most just, you know, degraded cucked country you can possibly find in the West in the majority of people there don't want any of that happening to them. This is something. That has a class element to it. It has, as these countries have

become more multi-ethnic and multicultural, it has, ethnic, you know, elements to it's like there's a lot of things that create a sort of a class of people, and it's a class of people who have most of the influence in power. Who. Actually do want these things. Because they don't. Identify with the people who are against it on the ground. And this is something that if you see unite, you know, we've seen in the United States, in the West in general, there was budding already. I mean, I would say personally, it goes all the way back

to the foundation. But like definitely, you see in like the 1960s, if you think of somebody like John Lindsay. Right? John Lindsay was the mayor in New York for a while, and he was sort of the quintessential he didn't grow up like super rich old money. He was the last Wasp mayor. But he was like, he was. Like that. He was the wasp, right? He's the guy who limousine liberal. The term was invented for 87. Yeah, yeah. And if you look. At the way he. Conceived of himself. And the way that he. In his class,

the people who supported him, the eastern establishment types and people like him. Where they sort of drew their. Own sense of self-worth and their collective identity. Was first. Were better than those white people in the South who were Protesting Martin Luther King and so forth were better than them. Or the. Parents in South Boston who don't want bussing for their. Own. But then. Right. So as. The after. The civil rights movement kind of came to a conclusion, in 1965, and the Great Migration was starting To create a lot of conflict in the northern cities. Like

New York. That idea, the Southerners are always there. They're always there as a foil for, northern and Western elite, you know, identity construction. But it shifted to these ethnic groups that left, that lived in the cities, the Jews. Which. Sounds strange today, that like, you know, Wasp mayor who's publicly obsessed with social justice would be against the Jews in, you know, in a, in a conflict. But he was at the time. And it was because, you know, all these people, the Irish. And the Italians, these people who think that like, that's their neighborhood because it's

been their Neighborhood for 100 years now. And you know that, everybody in the neighborhood goes to a parish church that, they've gone to their grandparents went to. They have. Internal social structures and, dispute arbitration structures and all of these sort of organic institutions that that grew up from ground level, That gave them an ability to self-govern in a way that made it so they really, like, were not as dependent on, the state bureaucracy to do these things for them. Right? They could do a lot for themselves. And. And these are the people. Who. Were resisting,

you know, the movement of African Americans into Their communities. When people look back, for example, like when when Martin Luther King went up to Chicago in 1966 and there was the Marquette Park riot. To this day. Like it? You can go. You have to go into a pretty deep. Serious history book about that period to get the fact that, you know, everybody sees that is a bunch Of white people who came out to protest, a bunch of black people moving or, you know, trying to open up their neighborhood. But there wasn't a bunch of white

people. Those were Lithuanian people. It was a Lithuanian neighborhood that had been a Lithuanian neighborhood for some time. These are a bunch of people who had come over here as refugees And had set up a little community for themselves, that they didn't want change. You know, when, that's a Latino community with a bunch of art student white art students moving into it and gentrifying it in Brooklyn or, Los Angeles. You know, people don't have a problem saying that they have a right, you know, to, to maintain This community that they've built for themselves. And I

actually kind of agree with that. Like, I like to when I see gentrification happening, it's like, you know, I'm sympathetic. It's very, very sympathetic. Yes. The crime thing makes me look, I'm against I'm against crime, against hurting people, you know, strangers. But the idea that people Of all backgrounds, races, everybody, every human being has a right to, like, have a cohesive social network around him and live the way he basically wants to without bothering others and shouldn't be subject to, you know, abstract social planning that takes no account of human beings like, yes, yeah, yes,

I'm on this. Yeah. You know. There's this very interesting. Well, actually, you know what? That'll take me off on a whole other tangent. I want to stick on the topic you were talking about when you bring up, like, what's happening in England, in Ireland. And I think. I think it's hard. For a lot of Americans to really understand, the tragedy of what's happening over there for The simple reason that. And I'm not. I'm not trying to trivialize our struggles with similar issues here in the United States. I just say that they're that they're different, that,

you know, in the United States, we've essentially had an unending demographic turmoil from the very beginning. You know, we fought our revolution. And within. A generation. Most. Of the major cities on the East Coast were all majority Irish. And this was at a time when English and Irish. Wasp and Irish was like, you know, these were foreign foreign peoples. To each other, you know, Catholic and Protestant. That was still unresolved when I was small there even. I mean, it went on a while. And so within. A generation, you know, of the revolution, most of the

cities on the East coast are majority Irish, or at least huge chunks of them are super majority Irish, even if the whole city's not quite. Not to mention it's a lot of Germans. Although they assimilated to the wasp majority pretty well Pretty quickly. But then within a generation of that, just as the Irish are kind of starting to move out of the slums a little bit and become middle class kind of members of the society, you start getting a ton of Italians, a ton of Jews, a ton of. All the eastern, southern and Eastern. Europeans

who start coming in and you see a repeat of the same Process, a lot of the same problems. The institutions all start to break down, the schools break down, the infrastructure breaks down, and they blame the people coming in because. You get a lot of violence and revolutions and a. Lot of violence. Organized crime, revolutionary movements, all those things. I mean, people forget that, you know, a lot of the lynching victims In the late 18, early 1900s were Italians is a famous one in New Orleans. But there are a lot of famous ones. And, and

so that happens. And then we cut. Off foreign immigration in 1924. But then we start the. Great migration of African-Americans. Out of the South. You have the Okie migration Out West from, the dustbowl. You have the big hillbilly migrations out of Appalachia, up to Detroit and Chicago, those places. And, so we're just used to the like the fact that we're always. Renegotiating our identity here. You know. We were this, this British, former British. Colonies that just fought for our independence. But now we've got to figure out how to construct a collective identity that includes all

these Irish people that came in. And like, one of the ways that we've done that traditionally has been through war. You know, the fact that there were so many Irish men who came into the country and fought on the side of the Union in the Civil War. If you look at like, I mean, World War Two to a great degree. I mean, if you think about the city of Vicksburg, which didn't didn't. Celebrate the 4th of July after it was conquered during the Civil War, like it stopped celebrating the 4th of July. And I remember

I was watching, the Kenwood, Ken Burns documentary about Civil War. He mentioned this and he said they didn't they didn't celebrate the 4th of July again for like X number of years and snuffed out my eggs. I don't remember exactly what year they were. That was the 63 Vicksburg. Anyway, he said for. X number of years and, and I thought about it for a second. I was like, oh, that was July 4th, 1944. I was a month after D-Day. And that's what got this place. It was extremely bitter over all this, you know, to. Raise

the the. Flag and celebrate the 4th of July again. So we've. Used war for 80. Years. Yeah, yeah. And we've used warfare For that purpose. And that's not an uncommon thing, but it's it's it's one of the, one of the means that we've done to unify our people. And as, as, you know, wave after wave of, at the time, very foreign people. You know, it's hard to explain. To people today how foreign an Eastern European Jew was to a Wasp or an Irish man Or a German American in New York in, in, you know, 1880.

I mean, it's just these. People might as well have been coming out of the Congo, you know, and in some ways even more foreign than that. Because all of. Us, like, we're kind of even if we've never met anybody from the Congo, just through mass media and everything, we've kind of got a more Cosmopolitan view of the world. So we're not. It's sort. Of familiar in a in a strange. Way, these are people who were coming from all over the world. And we've all I mean, if you think about. Like, the 1798 Naturalization Act. Right.

You see a lot of, like, white identitarian types who point to that because it says. All people, all white people of. Good character can come into the United States to become citizens. And they speak 1798 like they're already thinking in terms of race in America as a white country, excuse me, and so forth. And I say, you're not understanding the historical context of of that of that law. That's not to prevent you from Bringing in like half of the African subcontinent or, you know, the Arab population in the Middle East or whatever, that was inconceivable

to these guys in 1798 that anybody would ever do that or that that could happen. That was not the point of it. And if you really look at the law and you. Place it in the context of its time, the context of Europe at the time, Remember again, Catholics and Protestants, like the. Different peoples across Europe, they've got two world wars. Still ahead of them. They've got a. Polyphonic war still ahead them, they're going to be butchering each other for the next couple centuries. Right. And we said, think about how just a revolutionary level of.

Inclusivity, this is to say. All you. Europeans. Anybody if you live in Europe and you're Protestant, you're English, you're. Irish, you're Catholic. You're Jewish, whatever. You come over here and when you come over here, you will be accorded the full. Rights and privileges of a citizen, The same as the richest guy in this country. That is a revolutionary. I mean, nobody had ever heard. Of anything like that. It was unbelievably just open and inclusive. And the reason that they said that they limited it to, to free white people was they didn't want. You know, some

southern state, Including their, their slaves as, citizens, but not really including them and kind of gaming the federal system, getting representation because they decide to say, oh, all of our Native American population or their citizens now, but not really allowing them, you know, in. And so that's what they were trying to prevent, like the idea of bringing in just. You know, an overwhelming number of people from what became the Third World was obviously the farthest thing from their minds because they couldn't conceive that anybody would do something like that. And so but that's the point,

is that this even from. The very beginning, there was a recognition that we need to be. A radically open country, if for no other reason. The fact that we've Got a gigantic continent, we've got to go settle and build up. Right? Because if we don't do it, then these. European powers are circling like vultures and they're going to do it. And so we have to get out there and build this place up. And so, you know, that required a level of openness that has transformed the world in one way. So it's just interesting to hear

you Say that the point at the time of, of mass migration was to build the place up. Clearly, the point of it now is to tear the place down. Yeah. And isn't that interesting how, you know, it's like, I think the psychologist Carl Jung said something like inequality and excess becomes its opposite. Yes. And exactly right. And it definitely, you know, that applies to inclusivity or openness. I mean, I was saying that like, you know, in the United States, because of that experience. Of just constant demographic turmoil, as soon as the Great Migration petered out

in like 60. Like literally the early 60s, we passed the hard. Stellar Immigration Act and opened Up the floodgates to the Third World. And that's the world that we're in now. Right? So it it's just been an unending wave after wave after wave of your neighbors. The people you have to negotiate. Politically and, social collective identity with or changing all the time. And that's just. Sort of it's built into the. American understanding of themselves And how societies. Work in. All of that. Like I would say. That there's only maybe the only time the United States.

Like, really at least maybe. Like, you could say right after the revolution, but like. The period, like from 1941, you. Know, right around that. That time up to maybe. The mid-Fifties, when the Great Migration started to drive all of the European ethnics out of the cities into the suburbs and stuff like, there was. That period where we almost pulled it off. We almost pulled off. Constructing a solid. And sustainable national identity that, you know, obviously, the fly In the ointment ended up being that there was 10% of the population who weren't really included in that,

the African-American population. And that became the sort of. You know, the wedge that allowed, people. To pry apart that. Project in the 1960s. And. And thank you for acknowledging that was the point of the exercise of. Right. And in which. You know, again, not to diminish. You know, especially after going through, you know, the Jonestown series and spending so much time reading about the history of African-Americans in the country. And I, you know, I. Grew up around in African-American neighborhoods, mostly in, around different places. I'm I'm more sympathetic than most. People who are as far

right on a. Lot of political issues as. I am to the plight of people who live in the ghetto. I mean, I couldn't agree more. No, but that's kind of the point that I'm making. If the point of the civil rights movement was to, uplift black people, which I would be completely for, then Selma, Alabama would be a great place and so would Jackson, Mississippi, and so would little Rock, Arkansas, and all the kind of holy sites of that period. And in fact, they're all far worse than they were in 1960. So, like, what was

the point of that? Clearly, if the point of BLM was to help black people again, I could kind of be for that. But I mean, the point of it. So there's two. Element there's two answers to that question, really. Right. One is there are people out there who. Absolutely saw it as, a wedge issue to. Support. Revolution in one sense or another, you know, disintegration of the country. You saw this in the 1960s. Tom Wolfe's written about it. But a lot of people have written about how, you know, you remember back in 2008 how when,

Obama started to rise to prominence and a lot of the older Republicans were thrown out. He's a community organizer. He's a community. None of the younger. People there just didn't land with younger people at all, because they Had no frame of reference for the 60s and 70s and stuff. They didn't know. What that. Meant, that you literally had these. Vast government programs who were just handing out money to revolutionary organizations. So people who were going out and planning and. Organizing riots. At City Hall. Oh, 100%. Like that happened in New York, like a group who

was not like they got some funding through three different kind of, you know, degrees of. Separation from some government. Program. They were literally just. Basically an. Agency. Of the New York City government. They were literally just fully Funded. Their leaders were. Appointed. They're paying for Wall Street. Gangs and these. Yeah. That too. And this group went and held a protest at, at City Hall, invaded City Hall, trashed the place and everything. And this is a government funded organization. So that's what people had in mind. And it didn't land with the younger. People I noticed back

then. So you have those people, you know, you have the people. Who, at Columbia in the 1960s who wrote all the papers that led New York and then other places to, you know, to embrace bussing at schools and to embrace, expansion of the welfare, you know, programs. And they were very open about I mean. It's really. Crazy how these two professors at Columbia who. Were sort of the, like, the. Expansion of, welfare in New York under James Lindsay was kind of their brainchild. They wrote the paper and the articles about it and everything, and they

were brought in as consultants Once the decision was made, they're literally writing in their papers. If anybody at City Hall had cared to read them. They weren't saying this is going to make poor people less poor, and they directly say, what this is going to do is it's going to increase. Tension. Between the lower class, lower classes in the middle class. It's going to drive a wedge, because there's going to be like an unavoidable. Racial angle to this, because it's going to be transferring. Resources from the, you know, European. Ethnic groups in the city over

to African Americans and Puerto Ricans. And this is all good, because this is going to start to create. That tension that we need. It even in even say they. Said that out loud. Yes they were. They wrote about it in a, I can't remember which magazine it was at this point, but it was, it was like The Atlantic or something. It was like that Promotable magazine. It was like a summary of their academic findings. Right? That and these are the guys who They were the impetus for the expansion of the welfare programs in New York.

They were brought in to City Hall to like, explain how to. Implement it and stuff. They even say. That a positive. Benefit of this is it's going to make. All of these. People more dependent on the. Government. You know it's going to make them wear. So I mean, you have that angle of it, right? You have. That side of things in those people. Who do. They know what they're doing and they want to tear this down. I think that, you know, a lot of. Ways they're the drivers of a lot of it. But a lot

of people are the one, You know. The ones being led, a lot of them. It's just a lot of white people who use it to feel good about them. So there's no doubt. And and they don't have. Know them all. Yeah. They're able to insulate themselves from the consequences of their decisions in a way that, you know, and this is, again, to take it international again. You go over to Europe. Yeah. It's kind of what's. Going on is, you know, if you're the leader of Hungary, like Viktor Orban right now. Like you're the leader of

Hungary, if you're the leader. Of, like, Germany. If you're the leader of Great Britain. Yeah. Like, you're, you're we're we're still at the point where, Like, you still not. In England, we're not. But like, we're you still have to be German to like. Get elected. You know, we can't like, take it so far yet that we've. Detached it completely from like some illusion of, of. The fact that this. Is a nation state that's self-governing. But really this is an international super class. You know, that they identify much more laterally with people of their own class

across borders than they do with the people in their own countries. And, you know, that. Mentality is what makes it possible for them to do the things, that they're doing to the people That they have power over. So what at this point, you describe what's happening to Europe as the worst thing, not just the UK, but maybe especially the UK, but also Germany, Spain, Ireland, as you noticed, really, everything west of Central Europe, of Hungary, is increasingly not European. So what does that trend continue or stop? Or what happens. While. I mean, that's going to

be up to the Europeans. I don't I say this with. Not without pride at all, but I think that. I think that as long as the United States remains the dominant power in the world and the dominant power and European geopolitics in a lot of places like like Germany, Still a significant factor in their domestic politics. I think that we are very negative influence on that front. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting to watch, a Google like an Apple bomb become literally hysterical, like shaking with rage and in a way that people with no self-control

do. When Viktor Orban says stuff like, well, you know, I just don't Want to admit like a million non Hungarians into my country, you know, and they go, they go crazy. Yeah. I mean, you look at how they. Respond to somebody like Orban and like they would color revolution that dude in a second if they thought they could get away with it, if they. Didn't think it. Was Orban. Well, he's hardly like A right wing praise. Yeah. It's like very moderate and kind of like liberal in an 80. That's probably the only reason they don't

trade is they know that like his chief opposition is far to the right of him. So that's probably why they don't do it. But. Well he's like the least extreme world leader I've ever met. Yeah. It's funny. It's like it's I get a similar sense from Mr. Putin in Russia where, you know, he's a hard man. You don't drag Russia out of its state in the 1990s without being a hard man. But it's a it's probably, hoping for a little too much. That whoever follows him up. You know, if we. Were to do something that

would end his rule that whatever would come Next would be beneficial to. Us. So Trump, Orban and Putin, yeah, I can say this is my perception of all three of them, is that none of them is particularly ideological. All three are pretty sincere nationalists, not like crazed ideological nationalists, but just sort of want to do the best for their country. None of them is like a religious Nut, and none of them is like, especially right wing. They're all in, you know, in the 1980 456 context, they would be sort of moderate, maybe conservative Democrats, liberal

Republicans. Like, they're not they're not at all what people claim they are. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, the post-World War Two order is really. Defined by the fact that, you know, after Nuremberg, it really became effectively illegal in the West to be, like, genuinely right wing, like the things we call right wing. I mean, it's all flavors of liberalism, basically, of course. Right. And like, if you go back and read pre-war conservatives, pre-war right wing writers. In, in Europe, like. Literally in a lot of places it Became illegal to be that way. Right. And

here again, it's not quite illegal, but. We have control mechanisms that are almost. As if U.S. government had a lot of people to prison over the years for their political use a lot. That's true. And, that's like a defining aspect of the postwar European order. Right. And as long as that order remains in place and remains a dominant factor, it's going to be very hard for them to escape this cycle. And I want to be clear, too, when I say like that, it's the worst thing that can happen. I don't mean that. Well, now you

have to live next to these people who don't look like you Or who, you know, speak differently. That's nothing to do with that. I get it. You know, you're talking about a people. And again, this is why I spent so much time on on why it's harder for Americans to kind of really understand this is because of our historical experience with just demographic turnover. Right. We kind of have this idea even though we're being pushed to Our limits right now, you know, and you're really starting to see that because of the. The ideological forces, and

the cultural forces that are making it much, much harder to swallow and digest the current, the current crop of, new immigrants since 1965. Much harder to assimilate for various reasons. So we're approaching our limit here, But. Still, we still have this kind of idea. In America that, you know, yeah, these things are going to happen, and then we'll figure it out and renegotiate and kind of America. Will yeah, we'll. Be different. But, you know, in another generation or two, more change Will be happening. And that's just, you know, the dynamic of the United States. And

so we always have this sort of feeling that in terms of our collective identity, like we'll figure it out. You go to a place like, yeah, I mean any European nation where this is and this is a people's ancient homeland, and there's actually such thing as, you know, an Englishman, There's such thing. Is that. Like, there's, you know, an. American is something that, again, the definition of it changes. With. Every generation. And it's always been that way. The definition of an Englishman has never changed, and it never will change. And those people, the English. People,

not for over a thousand Years. Not since 1066. Right. And so in those people, are going, they're in the process right now. Of forever. Losing the only spot of land that they have on this earth that is dedicated to the flowering and the preservation of the English people. Like the only in. It's a tiny little spot they're not In for the Dutch. It's true for the Spanish. It's true for the Germans. It's true for the Belgians. It's true for every Western European nation. So why not have, Nuremberg trial for the people who did that? I

don't understand. I mean, that's such a crime. Well, we have to win first. Yeah. No, but I think it's important To say. Oh, wow, that that's a crime it's against. It's an. Inconceivable. To millions of people. If you go back. To again to bring up, like, Louis the 14th or any powerful monarch, they never would have dared imagine that they could do that to their people without getting their head cut off. They wouldn't have dared imagine that they could just replace their people with, you know, people from a different continent, different religion, different land, just

to overwhelm them, to make their own people a minority in that country. For whatever reason, ideological, you know, whatever it was, they just it would they they wouldn't imagine that they had the Right, the power, the ability to do that. You know, and. I, I said something to you yesterday when. We were, having dinner, that. I would probably feel somewhat differently about this if it was a situation where, you know, over the last eight. Generations of English. People, of British people, that They had just sort of like gradually brought people. In from around the world.

And over. The course of 200. Years or 300 years, they had just transformed the demography of their island into something unrecognizable. Because you could look at that and say, well, you know, I don't necessarily think that's the best Idea for them or, you know, I don't like the changes that are being made. But hey, the English people, they made this. Decision over the course of. Two. Exactly. It's like their food. I won't eat their food. It's disgusting. But they like it and that's okay. But this. One generation decided that they had no responsibility to Any

of the people who came before them, and they have no responsibility to any of the people who are coming after them. They are going to. Permanently, radically. Irreparably transform their society in ways that they know hurt the majority of the population. They've immunized themselves from, you know, at present, but that They know. Are not welcome. And are harmful to the majority of the people that they rule over. And one generation of people decided that they had the right to do that. And and it's the postwar generation. It's the generation born in 1946, between 1946 and

1964. That's who did that. You know, so it's hard to escape the obvious conclusion. And I suspect this is part of what's driving your current project. That war didn't just redraw borders, but it it changed the world in ways that are still unfolding and that whose like profound nature we're only now beginning to appreciate. Is that right? Sure. I'm a I'm a big fan of the writer Rene Gerard. Right. He talks about, he's got this Whole big theory about the origin of human religion and, sacrificial ritual and stuff. But putting aside, like, his, his broader

speculations about the origin of religion, one of the things he talks about is. If you look through the. The myths of every society you can pretty much think of throughout history. If you look at, like the national Origin stories of any nation or people that you can think of. It is almost without exception. And it may be without exception that there's blood at the beginning of that story. There's in its frame because it's a sacred story. It's framed as sacrificial blood right now. Sometimes, like he'll give. Examples of that is. True. He'll give examples of.

Sometimes, you know. There's a like his his basic. Theory, right, is that when a society finds itself in a time of tremendous turmoil, and it may. Be. Just. Disunion, you know, or like people Can. Feel like we like we have right now since like 2015 or. However long it's been. There's just this. Tension where people kind of. And moderate people, regular people that you for that aren't typically political, right. And left for that matter. Everybody kind of has this feeling that. This. Can't just keep going the way it's going. Like, you know. We're. Approaching some

sort of a point where decisions are going to have to be made, confrontations are going to have to occur, and a decision is going to have to be made because There's just too much ambivalent energy pulling us in every direction. People feel it in their daily lives. And, you know, and so that starts to happen to a society. And, he points to. You all these. Examples throughout history and ancient mythology, right. Where I'll talk about How there's some problem that. Was, you know, a plague is, is plaguing Thebes. And, you know, whatever example you want

to give, and they find the scapegoat person for this. And, you know, Jonah being thrown overboard into the sea, you know, to calm the storm. And what do you know? We found the culprit. We found the perpetrator, the one Who had, like, brought this curse upon the city because of his own private sin or whatever it was. And we got rid of that person, and now everything is actually better. And now the plague went away and the storm stopped and something. And so what Gerard says is, this is this is a very. Interesting insight, I

think, because he says. What these all are, these are post Hoc apologies for what these people did. You know, they're looking back. And saying that, you know, this person who we murdered. That a we had to do that. But then there's another little weird. Dynamic where that person sort of becomes deified, because at the end of the day, they did have the power To. Restore order and. Peace to the society, to make the plague go. Away. And there's also a. Sort of ambivalent feeling, because somewhere in there they do know that they murdered, you know,

murdered this person as a scapegoat. And, so. It's so he gives an example, by the way, of like obviously talks about The Christian story, the crucifixion. And he says, you have a time like. Where this is like a, you know, Jerusalem was full of revolutionary ferment. There were, you know, there were. There were rebel leaders. And riots. There were messiahs cropping up saying that they were going to lead a resistance against the Romans is a very, very, very Tense time. And the community, the Jewish community in Jerusalem, was able to sort. Of you go through

this process of uniting around. The need to eliminate this victim, who, at least at present, is like, responsible and is and emblematic of all of the, the insane, the mounting insanity that's sort of engulfing us all Right now. And the difference, though, in why Christianity is what it is like, you think about the idea that we have the cross as our symbol, which is so strange to people who are not Christians. You know, it's like for people today, you would have to think about like for the, for the, for the visceral sort of. Way that

somebody in the Roman world Would have witnessed, that would have seen that it would be like your religious symbol was like a corpse hanging from a noose. Exactly. You know, or a meat hook or. Yeah, right. And so, like, that's what they would see. That's kind of. Crazy when you think about it like, wow, what is going on there? Like you're. Your. God came down and he was murdered. And tortured, put up on a cross. And that's like your sacred symbol of him. You're not trying to forget that part of the story or sort of

pretend that that is the story. Very strange. Right? And it's because. This process that every myth, Gerrard says, was based on throughout history that you see apologized for and rationalized in every one of these myths. There were people who were. Following Jesus who refused to go along and they said, no, no, no, no, no. He was innocent and you murdered him and they. Refused to back down from that. You look like in the. Book of acts, when Stephen gets Martyred. They freak out and stone him. Not when he's making doctrinal points. It's when he gets

to the places you murdered him. He accuses them of murder. And they stone him for it. And you had these people who. Were willing to die for that. Know they were. Willing to stand with the victim. Of. You know, this mob attack of this scapegoat attack and die with him if necessary. Because, you know, to a Christian like, that's what martyr to means. It's different than like, what a muslim means by usually. Right. You go to Warren. Diane Warren, you're a martyr, like in the Muslim world, which is fine. Like they have their way of

looking at things. But to a Christian, it. Doesn't mean you're dying for an idea, dying. For Christ, it means you're. Willing to die with Christ. If you see a mob picking. Up stones and surrounding an innocent victim. You're not going to slink away. You're not going to pick up stone. And and if you do, then, you know. Then you're. Yeah, you're making an irreparable, sort of irrevocable choice. At that point, you were going to stand with that person. Against the mob, even if it means that you die with him. That's what it means. And if

everybody does that, then you have a Transformed society, and the kingdom of God is here. And so as a counterexample, Gerard uses, a holy man, first. Century, late first century, early second century, called the Apollonius of Tyana. And he was a pagan holy man who they constructed a biography for him that is essentially the same as Jesus. Virgin birth, born in a manger. 12 disciples. Eventually died and life was brought back to life and like, so it's like. It's it's a it's a clear, like, ideological. Refutation of this growing Christian myth that's starting to take

over the pagan world. And one of his most famous miracles that he performed. Was there was a. Plague that was engulfing the city of Ephesus. And they nobody knows. What to do. And so they call up Apollonius of Tyana. You got to help us with this plague. And so he goes up there and he says, okay, I'll help you. But you have to agree. Ahead of time. You do exactly what I tell you to do. He say, okay, great, just help us. And so he leads the. Community to this town square, and there's this. Old

beggar who. Is. You know, raggedy clothes, filthy, no teeth. He's just, you know, destitute, broken, like old beggar. And he tells the people around. He says, now pick up stones. Kill that man. And at first they're like, I don't know about this award. And he's like, you want a plague to continue or not kill that man? And so one stone flies and as soon as one flies to fly, then they're whole thing. And so they cover and they stone him to death, and he's covered with like a cairn of stones, essentially. And as they're stoning

him. His eyes flash red and he buries his. Teeth and they realize it's a demon. And so they finish him off, and at the end they clear away the stones, and what they find is this giant frothing at the mouth like dog demon thing. And then the plague goes away. And when Gerard says, or he doesn't put it this way, because This is a little too provocative for him, but I'll put it this way. What you're reading there is the story of the. Crucifixion. As it would have been. Written from the perspective of the Pharisees.

That's what that. Is. You know, of course he was. Because like, here's the. Crazy thing. Is it's not they're not. Imagining. That after they kill that guy, that everything's getting better. It does get better, because all of these people who were ready to just tear each other apart yesterday, once they all came. Together around. That guy, that's the guy who's. Responsible for all this, and we all came together to commit this crime against him. We're all in this together. In a way that we weren't before. There's catharsis and then unity. Yes. And so it actually

does work in a very perverse way. And that is the now, of course, it doesn't last. And eventually you have to go through that cycle again. That's why human sacrifice Continues. That's that's what Gerard said. Abortion. Be happy in that Christianity is the answer to all that. And it's why that, you know, you can look and show similarities between, you know, ISIS, Horus, Osiris and all these various things. Yeah, sure. Like there's structural. Similarities in other myths. To certain aspects of the story. Whatever. But at a fundamental level, they are they are. Not just different,

they are. Radically opposed. They are 180 degrees deeper. Right. And and it's also possible that it's not just a function of human psychology, but that there's also a, an element from the outside acting upon people. There is maybe you are appeasing the gods or the demons actually for a short time. Yeah. I mean, that's it. You know, most. People come to me for. History stuff, so I don't usually dive into that, but occasionally I do. And my more tolerant, subscribers, they, you know, they say they enjoy it, so. But yeah, that's. So when can just

tip. Tie a bow in the World War Two project. For the reason I keep forgetting. This is probably the same reason you're doing it. I think it's like it's central to the society we live in, the myths upon which it's built. I think it's also the cause of Like the destruction of Western civilization and these lies. And so I just very much look forward to to your honesty on this question. When does this come out? I think I'll probably be ready to put out the first episode in maybe six months or so, because the I've

got another big, long episode I'm doing on, the history Of the labor movement wars, where it's. It's a great story about, basically a big. War that took place between, the Mafia and the American Communist Party over control of the Hollywood unions. It's a fascinating story, a lot of larger than life characters and stuff. So I'll finish that up, and then I'll start wrapping up my Research and start moving on to that. Can I say real quick, too? Because, I did the thing, you know, your interview with Mr.. Putin, I think, probably prepared you for interviewing

me because we both do the same thing. Like you ask me something about World War. Two, and pretty soon I'm talking about Apollonius of Tire. I could tell you about the ruse. And so, I can't help myself. That's, you know, you either love it or hate it. That's what I do in my podcast, too. But, you know, I think that World War Two is a founding myth. And that Girardi, in a sense, for us. Yeah. If you think about, like, just the Strategic bombing campaigns, the ethnic cleansing of the Germans after the war, what the

Soviets did to East Germany after the war, just everything that hap that we did to. To to. Win that conflict. I mean, these are things that. Or even the things that or maybe especially the things we did after we win. Right, right. And so we do those. Things. Nurnberg, the farce of Nuremberg and the whole. War. And that's just it. I think that Nuremberg, like, is that sacrificial ritual. And I might mean that literally, but I'm not. Married to it. If people don't want to take it literally, they don't have to. But, you know, but

I probably do. And I think it was that sacrificial ritual that was the founding event of the current global order. It's it brought us all back together. It told us who the bad guys were. Why they. Are. By, in a binary sense, different from and opposed to us, which makes us the good guys. And now we can. All. Again, you. Know, Vicksburg celebrated the 4th of July. But I do think there's something else going on, because, look, I, I think a lot of what we hear about World War Two is like, I've agreed with everything

on bases, much less knowledge than you have it. But all of your conclusions are Consistent with mine. But I'm totally happy to say the Nazis were bad. I think they were. I'm totally happy to say the United States was the, you know, most virtuous player among the three. But you're not talking about a historical event. You're talking about a myth. Go, go tell a muslim that, yes. Muhammad is a great guy. He did a lot of great things. But. And then see the reaction. Everything comes after. But. Right? No, you're totally right. I just can't

get over the fact that the the west winds. And is completely destroyed in less than a century. Looks like the West was conquered. The rest of the West was. Conquered by the United States in the Soviet Union. Okay, but I mean, putting the United States in the West, right? Somehow the United States and Western Europe won. That's the conventional understanding. And both have now look like they lost a world war. So, like, what the hell was that? Like, there's something very, very Heavy. Yeah. I mean, it's all the things that we have been talking about.

And probably. Some things that, you know, we only talk about privately, but. We can see the results of it. I mean. Yeah. So that's that's it. So the real. Question is if they were trying to achieve that destruction that you're Talking about, if they if they were trying, they couldn't have done it more directly or more effectively, you know. And so, there are trends in forces. There are things that drive people, you know, like incentives to drive people that they're not aware of. There's a lot of things going on. But if. They had been doing

it Intentionally. There are a lot of incentives that drive people that are not aware of. Boy, that is so true and worth well, in your business, I think it's really important to remember that. But for all of us, it's important to remember we're not quite sure what drives us. For other people, sometimes. It's. A value. A history in a lot of ways Is we have the benefit of hindsight. And, you know, one of the things that you find I found this again on pretty much every single topic that I've covered. Even the labor movement. Like

ones that I'm doing now where I'm like, especially back in the old days, you know, before it became big labor. Like I'm a fierce partizan of the labor movement back in the late 18. Really big time. I totally agree. And so I expected. Going into it like this is just going to be like a big, you know, screw the bosses. Like, you know, pro-union pro everything kind of. And I. Am still pro-union pro everything on on that. Side. But. It's made me be able to see where the bosses. Were coming from and what. They thought

they were looking at. And if you take that any historical topic, any historical topic, if you allow yourself. To be open about it. You know. I have gotten An email. I got an email back in 2017. 2018. From an active duty Israeli soldier who was serving actively in the West Bank, who told me that he heard my Israel Palestine series and that it opened up his. You know. His understanding of how things did look to the other side and how the history was Understood from the other side, and that it. Affected the way he. Interacted

with people on a daily, bit Palestinians on a daily basis at his checkpoints and things like that. And it's because, if you will in all praise. To that guy, you know, good for him. Because that's a tough thing to. Do. You know, especially when you're Enmeshed in it like he is. But if you allow yourself to be open and look at almost. Anything, honestly, what you find is you. You end up with. At least a certain amount of sympathy or understanding for almost everybody. Involved. And totally. And that's the only perspective from which you can

see the truth. I mean, I used to say to reporters at work, for me, as I'd be assigning stories, I would say, you know, you don't get to write a story about your girlfriend or your mom because you're blinded by love, but you're also not allowed to write a story about someone who you hate. Like, because hate is irrational. You know, strong dislike, disagreement, disapproval all allowed, encouraged, in fact. But hate blinds you. And if you don't see the person as a person, you're not going to write about him accurately, like people are. Fellow human

beings, however evil they are. Right. And you see this with like in good. Novelists versus mediocre. Not right. Like you think of somebody like. Like a great writer, like good Prose, right? Like Jonathan Franzen. Right? He's got this one book. What book was it? I can't remember the title of it, but it's it's this sort of like urban rural. Book where the. New York City, you know, cosmopolitan guy goes back to visit his family for Christmas in the country. And so France Is a great writer. Okay. You can develop characters if. This the character that's

from New York richly developed. He deeply understands that man. And you can tell by the way he writes it nothing but caricatures and stereotypes for his family members back, you know, and it's because he just can't step into their shoes and understand them. And they're like. Screaming racist epithet smoking math or something. It was just. Hokey and like. You know, kind of a like a just. A hallmark card version of what you would expect those people to be like. It just was not anybody who's been around people like that or would've been people Like. That

would just I mean, you literally. Laugh at it, and this is a great writer. But if you can't. Put yourself into the shoes of the people you're writing. About, at least to the point where you. Can humanize. Them, you don't have to say like, Oh, I could see if I was stolen, I would have done that too. It's not what it's about. It's can you at least like, can you get yourself to a place. Where you can see how a person in that position at that time was seeing the world. And the factors that. They

were taking into account when they were making their decisions. And now you have people out there Who are Jeffrey Dahmer. I'm not talking about people like that. You know, those people who are pathologically broken, psychotic. You know, you think of a world leader like Idi Amin and even Mao to a certain degree, who I consider. Like much less like. Stalin than he is, like somebody like Idi Amin, in other words, just like a a child like Psychotic, you know, like a true psychotic. Like, who enjoyed killing. Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, so you have those.

People, and I'm not saying you should figure out how to identify with those. People. Those people are operating on a different program than you are, That you're not going to be able to step into and understand. But most people are not even the even the monsters in the world. The people there are not. You know, there. Are people who zigged when you would have zagged. In over the course of a whole lifetime of making, you know, different decisions ended up in a radically different place. You know, there are brothers and sisters. Siblings who one of

them ends up a drug. Addict and a porn star, and the other one is an engineer and a family man or something like they grew up in the same household. That happens. But they respond to the things that confront them in life in different ways, and those things Start to add up and eventually gain a momentum of their own. And pretty soon, unless you, you know, unless. You it's. Very easy to get caught up in that and let that rule you. And that's what happens, in most, you know, most historical events, because most historical events

are about groups, you know, they're prominent Individuals, but ultimately they're about groups of people. And so, you know, the averages tend to tend to win out over time. So last thing, for people whose appetites have been whetted to. To experience what you know, the history that you produce. Where can people find this series, your labor series? Your Israel Palestine series? You know, how can they hear this? Sure. So, my main podcast is the Murder Made podcast. Are we spelling martyr made. Ma tr mad? I think when, Joe Rogan and Dave Smith were talking about or

knows when Josh Barnett was on there, my buddy Josh, they were talking about it, and Rogan had Never heard of it at the time. And he called me. His name's. Marty Ahmadi. So but yeah, martyr made, martyr like Allahu Akbar. Made like a made in America. And, those are my long form history podcasts. And they're found where? ITunes, Spotify, wherever you want to look for them. They also they appear on my Substack as well. The, the Substack is where I do a ton of subscribers only content. Once you get done with the countless hours of

longform history podcasts, there are. 50. 60, maybe 70 more podcast episodes behind the paywall on Substack, along with. I mean thousands of pages of Essays, series and things like that where it kind of get deeper into the subtopics and just tangential topics that I would like to talk about in my main podcast, but just can't quite fit them in and keep the narrative. On to your main podcast has no advertising? No. So total revenue to you. Four years of work is right around Zero in that range. For the podcast itself. Yeah, the podcast itself. I

just think that's amazing. We're at dinner last night. I'm like, you're you're see what took me five years to do this? I said, you know, how do you I'm sorry to be vulgar and like a capitalist about it, but like, how, you know, how do you pay your mortgage? What do you make on that Podcast? Like? Nothing. Yeah, well, the podcast. Is an advertisement, right? People listen to them, they like them. And then they find out that I have a subscriber in TV. We do a tease. It's about 30s long. There you go. Seven hours.

So, you know. So you're, Substack also murder Maid? Yes. And that's subscribe dot murder Macomb. And it has to be that because if you go martyr made substack.com Elon kills comics algorithm. So, subscribe to Martyr Macomb. I do another podcast with my friend Jocko Willink, who's a retired Navy Seal commander. A lot of people have Heard of, we do one called The Unraveling. And, how often? Well, lately, not as often as we should. We've been having trouble making our schedules meet up, but we've got 40 some episodes out at this point where we talk about

more current historical topics. Sometimes we get into politics, like our last one was on, deinstitutionalization and the kind Of the fallout, the homeless crisis that's, you know, partially resulted from that. So we get into all those things, you get to hear, you know. Like, like a hardened warrior, like Jocko. Comment on mental health crisis, for example. So that's it's it's a lot of fun. Darryl Cooper. Murder made. Thank you. Thank you for this conversation and for your addition to the sum total of knowledge. Really appreciate it. It's always fun. To watch the rest unlock our

entire vast library of content. You can visit TuckerCarlson.com and activate your membership today in the name of free speech. We hope you will.