Richard Dawkins Refutes “Christian Science”

[Music] I'm in America at the start of a five-week tour of America promoting this book uh the genetic Book of the Dead a darwinian Ry uh which is published on the 17th of September in America I'm having a good time I'm in Texas I the first stop was Dallas the second stop is here in Austin I've enjoyed both I've been especially uh enjoyed the book signings where really large number of people have told me have thanked me actually for uh changing their life which is a wonderful thing to be told and and many many people

have told me that I've inspired them to take up a career in biology to do a a doctorate in in biology for example so I've been very pleased about that and I'm enjoying myself in America very much uh and um I'm also looking forward to getting back to England where I'm continuing the tour there [Music] [Music] Mr WS yeah I'm Richard Dawkins Hello read a lot about you so about you I suppose we've got two rather unusual things going on at once here and we need to separate them out I mean one is that this

is an unusual way of learning the children are in separate cubicles so they're taught to set individual goals and things like that and you've explained how valuable that is but the other thing is that it's Christian I mean it's it's it's a CE e the C in that is is is Christian um could you tell me a bit about that I mean what's that all about um I I suppose the history of AC it's an interesting one it starts obviously in America it's an American System um the guy that started it uh Dr Donald Howard

was a an educator he worked in the state system in America he was frustrated with what children were doing and what he did he said actually what we need to do is to take something and present it to young people in bite-size achievable objectives rather than you know sometimes you get your English book at the beginning of the term and it's it's frightening so the first edition of this system what they actually did is tore ordinary textbooks to pieces and gave them to the children with little checkups and self tests and tests so that they

work so that was the basic what what was the idea T I didn't understand the idea was that you know that he felt that that that sometimes a child comes into a system in a normal school and you get your set book for the term and it's almost overwhelming so he broke it down into okay chunks of learning yes but you still haven't explained what that's got to do with being Christian I me I mean no I haven't but of course the reality is that Christianity encompasses everything about life Christianity is life so it's it's

about everything it touches education politics care Social Services everything see I had a look at the um the booklet the curriculum booklet that that you use for Science and it was very noticeable that God or Jesus did come on just about every page we don't have anything like religious instruction in the school because it is part need it no of course not absolutely um I mean as a science educator myself I did wonder a little bit about this because you might think that science would be kept on one side and they would learn science and

then they would go into a religious education class or something like that or a um sociology why would you separate it because science is about what's known to be true about the world or it's about methods of discovering what's true about the world and it seems a little bit methods of discovering I can understood but to know what's true about the world what what do you mean I I wouldn't want to stress that too much let's let's stick to the methods of discovering and the scientific methods of discovering are open-minded they're skeptical they're research-based um

I mean you did say that um the children here are encouraged to to do research and to question but are they encouraged to question religion I would hope so I mean I don't think obviously I'm a Christian I believe in God I don't think God is afraid of my questions that's that would be crazy if I if I you know no I don't think and and you know the the guy who developed the system one of the things I felt was interesting that he said one day is actually this system doesn't work it is a

tool it always comes back to the human beings operating the system that can make or not make it work uh and there I mean there are some things in this system because it comes from an American uh place and particular perspective that I would struggle with but you know I I mean one teacher said to me one day well perhaps we should take that all out I said no no don't take it out make the children question it yeah okay what's wrong with that but say I mean in in um one section in the science

thing I suddenly I was sort of taken a back because I suddenly start reading about Noah's Ark and what's that got to do with a science lesson I suppose that depends on your opinion it could have a lot if you believe in the story could could have a lot to do with science but isn't that one of the sort of origin myths I mean it goes back to the Babylonians it's a well-known origin myth I know I know that it's in every religious literature that around the world I do know that yes but uh the

trouble is sometimes we we call a thing a myth I mean the stuff that I was when I was a kid at school in science now you would laugh at and say it was a myth but that's what I was taught what were you what were you taught when I was taught one of the things that they taught me at school I've always remembered was that the moon came from the ocean here on Earth was flowing into space and that's where it came from yes what the Pacific Ocean or something like yes okay I mean

so that's what I was taught what you should have been taught I suppose is that um there is a a strong current that that's what happened but it might be wrong I mean so so but the TR what I'm trying to say is that when we use the word myth that yes it might be a myth but it might not be some of the things that I was taught in science were turned out to be myths well I didn't mean myth just as something that's false I mean myth myth is something that's that's that's ancient

it's a poetic story which has grown up within a tribe and there and the world is filled with origin myths I mean there are hundreds thousands of origin myths all over the world and the Noah Ark myth happens to be I think an ancient Sumerian myth originally uh and it was taken up by the Jews and that's why it comes into the Bible there are lots and lots of other myths I mean why teach the children that myth rather than a Nigerian myth or an Indian myth or a um because it comes from the Bible

I guess well okay but isn't that just a kind of historical accident that it happens to be in the Bible um you know aren't you rather subjecting these children to the consequences of a historic accident well M perhap let's let's assume I don't think I am but let's assume that I am yeah um wasn't I subjected to some historic accidents in the things they taught me in science well not exactly historic accidents I mean you were you were taught um you were taught the best science that was going at the time and science is proud

of of modifying itself as the as the years go by although it is true to say in our culture at the moment there's a real disillusionment with science isn't there is there yes interesting what what makes you say that I think things like BSE people are very very frustrated the the ecology the the the you know what's happening in our atmosphere global warming all of these things are making people very suspicious that science actually does have answers and is actually giving people the right answers isn't that a bit shooting the message Messer I me it

could be it could be but I'm just reflecting what I feel the culture is saying yes but I think you're right that there is suspicion of some policies that might be remedied by a better use of science but but science is attempting to understand what's true about the World by the best methods available and those methods include um research and questioning being open-minded I didn't feel reading that pamphlet that it was a very open-minded thing you didn't feel well put I did not feel reading that pamphlet that it was very open-minded way to teach in

the middle of a science thing to suddenly say something about Noah's ark or something about what Jesus taught or it seemed to me that ought to be kept separate in a in a in a religion class perhaps yeah I I would um just leaving that one on one side I would hate the idea of keeping things separate cuz that to me is is just a that I don't see life like that I see Life as whole uh nothing is separate I I get very irritated um when we want to put things in little compartments I

don't think human beings live in little compartments really and there's part of me I mean I know that it happens I know it's the law in this country part of me sometimes gets a little bit frustrated about religious education in the normal schools because I suppose what I feel is there's enough inoculation of untruth there to prevent you from ever knowing about the real thing what are you thinking of it well I think that sometimes you know people say I understand Christianity because I did AR at school and I oh no do you understand might

be a like you I had science at school and then when you hear what I've learned you think oh no that's a shame well would you then perhaps put in what the Buddhists think and what what the hind I think if we can understand what they think that's very helpful um I mean I've taken the trouble recently to sort of have meals with some Muslim friends and just try and understand where where they are but in your science curriculum book it doesn't have say at the bottom Christians think so and so it just says so

and so does I mean it doesn't say Christians think so and so Hindus think so and it's probably more likely to say Hindus think this way and Buddhists think this way and uh somebody who believes in science will think in this particular way it but it doesn't say that does it it just says well it will some places yeah you will come all I ever saw was a statement of what is true which was Christian yeah isn't that isn't that fair what is truth well um truth is what we find out I suppose because that's

the odd thing about Christianity of course that Jesus didn't say that which is the really weirdest thing in the Bible we talk about truth and I could say well I'm telling the truth or this is the truth as I perceive it this is the truth as I understand it Jesus funnily enough never said that he said I am the truth which is a totally different way of thinking about truth yes I can't say that I can only say this is what I think and the other thing that that bothers me when we talk about truth

people like to talk about truth and facts but actually uh facts are always filtered through the grill of our own experience and culture and presuppositions aren't they I mean I guess you've got presuppositions we've all got presupposition absolutely let me ask about another thing in the booklet which was about AIDS and HIV I think somewhere it talks about um I mean the sort of health education class obviously very sensible but then it's something about it's not the exact words but something about AIDS being wages of sin or something like that um I mean is that

kind of mixing health education with moralistic preaching I suppose the only other the flip side of that is that that that sometimes it frustrates me that we um want to teach health education outside of any moral framework at all which I I find very frustrating I mean I let me let me put my cards on the table say another thing that I find frustrating is that currently our government is saying we want to produce good citizens you know and we want we want you to teach good citizenship and you know Law and Order and all

the rest of it I don't know how you do that without a moral base I don't have any framework say how do I do that if there is no moral base well you could teach moral philosophy couldn't you why well because because see I I mean having looked a little bit at the stuff you've said on on on your websites and so on one of the things that I I don't it doesn't compute to me I think well how how does that work if if there is no moral base if there is no God and

I don't know what you believe of whether there is a God or not I don't know what you think no I think there's not you think there's not okay so if there is no God and there is no lawgiver why does it matter what I do why why why is rape wrong why is pedophilia wrong why why are any of these things wrong if there is no lawgiver if what you say correct me if I'm misunderstood what you're saying if you're saying well actually it's just we're just a machine or a mechanic then that that's

the way that it works if that is true then all the the law things if I can get away with it and nobody's going to stop me why is it do you realize what you've just said I mean what what you've essentially just said is that the only reason you're a good man is that you're frightened of God finding out no as a moral philosopher would say I don't rape and I don't pillage and I don't steal because I worked it out that the society in which we would live if we did that would be

a very nasty society in which to live for example the consequences the consequences of uh raping would be unpleasent or we have empathy with other people we feel Sympathy for the victim of a crime so why would I feel that uh well I me you've just said a very revealing thing you've just said a very revealing thing are you telling me that the only only reason why you don't steal and rape and and murder is that you're frightened of God I think that the strongest reason for the world in which we live is that there

is a lawgiver and I think that all people if they think they can get away with something and it is there is no consequences we actually tend to do that I think that is the reality look at the world in which we live that is the reality I don't I don't know whether you live in un reality I don't believe in a lawgiver no I regard myself as a very moral person I don't steal I don't rape I consider the feelings of other people I feel deep sympathy for people in grief I feel deep Sympathy

for the victims of natural disasters of crimes Etc um don't you think that that somebody who feels all those things without a lawgiver is in some rather deep sense a more moral person than somebody who requires a lawgiver in order to obey the law no not particularly I suppose I would answer that from a Christian perspective my Christian perspective is you see from my understanding of what from my theological understanding of what God says is that he says he says that to every man that comes into the world he's put Light Within them so there

is a moral understanding within all of us to to to an extent so I would think that that is true that doesn't surprise me so every one of us has got a conscience and when you start to philosophically look at conscience and how it works really weird thing well I think I've got a conscience too I'm sure you I'm sure you have um but it's a weird thing how it works isn't it well I think one can give an account of white works I but but it is strange it's not that strange uh I think

that being able to put yourself in the position of another not just person I mean another animal say um I mean you wouldn't torture a cat and I suspect that the reason you wouldn't torture a cat is not because you think God told you not to or something of that sort because you'd be sorry for the cat you wouldn't wish to cause suffering because you can imagine what it would be like to suffer I suppose yeah I'm not so sure about I think that probably comes from the culture of where we are because when when

you travel a lot you see people that haven know you know you see people that because their culture doesn't have any sympathy or empathy or whatever word you use I don't know that could be true but it but but it doesn't but it doesn't come from religion then I mean it it comes from somewhere else and if you if you look at the history of moral philosophy you'll find that that the philosophers think a great deal about uh consequences of actions and empathy with uh with other people I think there's something rather ignoble about being

good only because of a sort of spy camera in the sky you are putting words into my mouth not hardly I mean are all right well well because I I think that the reality is I mean let me just correct one thing that I think I I wouldn't regard myself particularly as religious I regard myself as a Christian because I think Christianity is about relationships so my first relationship is to God and my relationship is next with human beings and other people and both are very very important so that when you love God you're not

doing things right because you're frighten of what God will do in terms of punishment you are doing things right because you care it's like in a love relationship you don't you're not doing things right you just conceded my point I mean I care we care we all we all care we don't all care look at the world in which we live we don't all care but whether whether we care or not seems to have rather little to do with whether we believe in God I'm not so sure cuz the reality is that uh actually you're

very much in the minority if you look at the world as a whole in terms of spirituality and whether it's Christianity or Hinduism or Buddhism they are at the moment in the majority aren't they it's very small people that would take your I certainly don't want to set myself up in any any way but I suspect I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that moral feelings are correlated with religion if you look at the prison population for example you'll find remarkably a few atheists in prison I mean that's a I'm sure that's true uh

and um but I mean I don't War you find very few atheists too I I just I'm I'm depressed in a in a way that you should say without a without an absolutist moral base there's no reason to be good because that's what you said I I think that I think to a great extent that's true I think that yeah I I mean one of the things that made me laugh one day was with we have a nursery school and a junior school as well we don't just have this one and U one of our

Nursery teachers with three-year-old she said and I know you won't like this but she said do you know working in a nursery makes me believe in original sin yes well I can I mean that's an observation but but when you're educating a child and you're trying to tell a child not to cheat not to steal um I would say to the to the child well don't do that because how would you like it if he did it to you I mean don't don't don't do something unpleasant to somebody else because um can't you feel a

very nice way of thinking about it well it is isn't it a very nice well because it's just wrong that that's what's wrong with it I had a friend actually who became a Christian and this friend of mine I said you know what is your background he said oh my background he said we are we all thieves um and my sisters are prostitutes my my uh my my whole family my grandmother and he as far as I can go back he said we've always been thieves I said I can't can't get my head right out

what's your philosophy of life well he said when I was 7 years old and this is going back 15 20 years he said I'd always got s 00 in my pocket that I'd stolen from somebody I said but how do you justify that morally he said that's quite simple our moral of life was if you he said nobody ever stole off us we had bars at every window he said if you don't look after it you deserve to lose it and that was his moral basic till he became a Christian you know he said I

he said I could never understand why people were bothered about it there's a story which I'm not sure how accurate it is but it's quite a nice piece of research that was done in America on uh cheating in exams and the question was um are religious people less like to defeat I've read the same bit you've read the same bit as you will remember these the story the only people who did not cheat were the atheists um and but it was suggested that the reason why the atheists didn't cheat was they didn't need to because

they were too intelligent it wasn't quite the same research I read some terrible research that Christians were only 5% more honest than other people which is a bit depressing really I think there's no evidence that they're any more honest and and and um uh well if if if that was true it's still quite depressing yes um I maybe I went too far in talking about the great spy camera in the sky but you see what I mean that that that to to say that you need an absolute god-given moral standard in order to be moral

is a a slightly more ignoble reason for being moral than to say for example I feel moral because I empathize with the person that I'm about to hurt I wish that was true well maybe you should teach some moral philosophy and learn some moral philosophy yeah I wish that was true though on on a world stage and it's just not true what you're saying is just not true it's you look at the world in which we live it's it's a frightening place it is a frightening place um and quite a lot of what's frightening has

to do with religion doesn't it when you think about it yeah I think religion is I mean that's one thing I did agree on the website I think it's it's a in the neck it's awful but I would argue again you see that uh Christianity real Christianity which is what going back to what I said about being inoculated about Christianity real Christianity is about relationships it's not about religious religious things it's not about actually it isn't about laws and obedience to laws and obeying things and rituals and rules all those things are human things but

they that's not what real Christianity is about it's about knowing god and knowing people well I suggest that you encourage your researching children to go into the library and look up The Works of Jeremy benam and some other moral philosophers I I I do know that I did take some time to look into uh humanistic views of um what people think I I find that in terms of the world stage Christians have done more for the good of the world than any humanist had ever done but that was you know that was what my conclusion

was when I looked through that which was there are an awful lot more of that I don't know whether you whether you factored that in or not I think there's probably a lot of them in the west don't find them no I mean they're an awful lot more Christians than there are human oh yes yes yes yes of course sorry I didn't follow plenty of opportunities yes I mean of course I mean uh an awful lot of good is done in the name of of course even even if we think in terms of science it

was the Christians who were encouraging that research in the of course it was a day and an age and I understand that when Christianity was the predominant thing particularly in in the West in Western Europe but they were the ones that were encouraging some of them with great stress well like Galileo for example yeah people who putting them to death because they were saying things that were unpopular you know yeah I you know it was there too okay well thank you very much it's very interesting that's great turning camera okay action I was interested in

what you said about learning something wrong from science and it that that the moon was catapulted out of the Pacific Ocean um I suppose what a scientist might say to that is that's no longer taught because it's now known to be wrong whereas you're still teaching what has been taught in in Christianity for centuries yeah um I mean does that change as well um does it change I think probably our understanding of Christianity changes rather than the story or the MH you know you know um how can I put that I suppose it depends how

you see the Bible I and how I see the Bible is a um the Bible is not a science textbook it's not maths it's it's basically a revelation I believe in Revelation it's a revelation of God to Mankind and it uses it uses history as a process to it's a bit like putting a film on a wall and turning up the projector so that you see it so I think that's important to understand life and God um and if as I believe it is his world then it has an effect on all well I mean

if you were to talk to a modern Theologian a bishop or or a professor of theology the professor of theology would tell you there was a time when people took the Book of Genesis to be historical nowadays they don't and and um uh much of the Bible was um reinterpreted very heavily in the 19th century to be uh no longer Tak as factual history but as something else and his theologians would need to explain what they mean by that something else but it sounds as though you think it's still factual history I didn't say that

I I think that where the Bible is uh saying things it's telling the truth but the difficulty when people talk like that factual history what do we mean by that I mean the if you go back to sort of Genesis and exodus and numbers it spends whole book talking about not a whole book but almost a whole book talking about one man Abraham and then it it takes uh and I know from secular history that people like omry in Israel was probably at his time as a king of Israel I don't know whether you know

who he is but he was probably one of the greatest kings secularly that you know the Empire of Israel was affecting everywhere and yet the Bible dismisses him in one and a half verses well that's understandable yes well it is because the purpose of the scripture is not secular history the purpose of the scripture is the revelation of God well yes but I I mean we were talking about Noah's Ark and and a modern Theologian would say that there never was a man called Noah who had an arc and the Animals went into two by

two uh those children are being taught I gather I'm not sure yeah but I don't know you say that maybe in years time well I mean I don't know okay um one question um the the word education as you know from Latin means a leading out uh leading out leading the children to to develop their potential to life yes for life in life yeah indoctrination I suppose the sort of pejorative word we'd use for the opposite uh do you think there's a danger of indoctrination in having a bit of Christianity on every page of a

science book I think there's a bit of a danger of indoctrination in the state system if I'm honest so well that that could be I mean what what are you thinking of there well I mean I I was saying to one of your re researchers earlier that very often we get more opposition from Christians running Christian education than we do from people like you which is really strange I'm not I'm not surprised at all because because as I said Christians to me would mean um professors of theology uh who would not be at all happy

about your teaching children that the Book of Genesis is literal history some might well I think I've yet to meet one but uh where was I you say sorry um well we were talking about education and indoctrination then you said the word education from the Latin means literally leading out the opposite in a Majora of sense would be indoctrination do you think there's a a risk that you might be indoctrinating children by putting a Christian message on every page of a science textbook I think there's an a risk of indoctrination within the state system too

and and what are you thinking of there well I say sometimes it's the Christians that oppose what we're doing as well as people who who like you that wouldn't but yeah that doesn't surprise me uh but uh because as I said before um you give a literalist interpretation of Genesis whereas a professor of theology for example would not but just to use give you an example what I mean about the St I I fostered for a long time and a fostered daughter of mine went to local state school and at the same time I got

one guy saying how can you put Christianity into mathem matics it's ridiculous you know which is very common thing that people say to me and you know you can't math is math and English is English science is science and so on which I really don't accept and then I was looking through my foster daughter's English which is innocuous enough she's gone to school and she comes home she's a 14 15 year old and uh the exercise is please uh put the commas capital letters you know full stops in the right place in these sentences that's

an innocuous exercise isn't it you thought so yeah so would I but then I read the first sentence and the first sentence says I arrived home from school to find my boyfriend in bed with another girl right and I think now actually you are also giving you're sending out messages just by that so yes we are sending out message but those things send out messages if you talk to good Educators they will say that within a school the most important curriculum is the hidden one could I ask about that did did it go on to

reveal what the motive was it went on much the same vein you know it was that kind of it really was it it was almost like a soap oper an exercise in punctuation presumably somebody thought this would be to capture the child's interest I'm sure that's what was going through their head well I I but to me you see that's selling a point as well yes it is and I think well you know you're doing exactly the same thing as you accused me of doing yes well I'm not but but um uh so you you

you get the point then that that sort of indoctrination in a lesson that's supposed to be about punctuation um can also tell you something else yes uh and it would have been so easy to have chosen a completely innocuous passage absolutely it would be so easy for you to choose perhaps it would yes I mean in your lessons on writing and whether I would want to is another matter but yes you're right of course you would I think the other the other thing about the ethos though is is tremendously important I mean the the guy

who developed this system he said most of us teach a little bit by what we say more by what we do but most by who we are as people and I'm sure you wouldn't quarrel with that so the what the children learn in the textbooks is one thing but what they learn from me who I am what I am is actually more important than all the other things in reality and I suppose that can apply in the state school too I'm sure it does and I've worked in the state sector so I know that when

you get good people emphasizing good things you you actually change atmospheres which is important good thank you great when you were talking about leading by example which is obviously a very powerful Point uh if we look around the world and we see obviously hideous atrocities being done in the name of religion and know that um I would go further than that and suggest it's not just religion what it is is absolutist the same kind of absolutism as you were talking about earlier so whereas a nice gentle Christian like you wouldn't dream of doing that um

somebody who says I simply know that what's said in my holy book is is true and and it orders me to go out and and kill people of the wrong religion or whatever it might be um since you're basing it on an absolutist trust in scripture you have no comeback to that whereas my sort of pragmatic morality would say no you mustn't do that I mean it's all very well saying that your holy book says this but think about the other guy what would you say to that I mean I I probably would share your

complete frustration at that I I don't I think I I probably wouldn't use the word absolutism in the same way and I um when we talk about I think and it it would take a long to time to explain what I really mean by it but I think the Bible take the Bible needs to be interpreted from what I would call a christological point of view so you take Jesus as the center and then you go backwards which you end up with very different philosophy a very different Viewpoint rather than if you say this is

the word of God and this is you know I must because you can almost prove any nonsense from the Bible if you try hard enough which is the frustration especially if you take it literally I mean it does tell you to Stone people to death if they break the Sabbath if you take yeah but yes it I understand what you're saying and I and I've been at the receiving end of some of those kind of things I do understand what you're saying and but I think that's just a wrong use of scripture and I fall

out with if I'm honest with people uh I I would and people criticize me for being careful I you wouldn't hear me use the word about the Bible the word of God now to some extent I think it is the word of God I think scripture is very important however if you look at scripture if you look at the Bible it says this is my word and what is it talking about it's talking about a human being Jesus Christ the son of God and he says this is the word made flesh and come amongst you

so my knowledge of God is has to be always push back to what what would Jesus do what did Jesus do how did he act what was his like and of course he was not a fundamentalist who says this is what the book says so you're dead well at all um so why don't you do the thing about the history in Genesis for example why don't you reinterpret that and say I mean you're in effect cherry picking when you're saying you're saying you're not going to accept the more horrific passages of the book of levitic

and Deuteronomy I think cherry picking is is unkind I'm not cherry picking what I'm doing is interpreting scripture in a certain way when I went to college they taught us from a theological point of view this is the way you interpret scripture they would use what's called an ex aesus approach you don't take one scripture and say okay it says um kill this person therefore anybody who's got that you have to kill them it doesn't you don't do that with scripture even I wouldn't even go that way now but they would say you know each

scripture is not private it has to be interpreted in the whole You've got to look at the whole picture you've got to take scripture you've got to put it back into its historical context that's how I was taught now you're sounding exactly like one of those professors of theology that I was quoting after before that you were disagreeing with I mean that's that's I know I didn't say disagree well no and that's precisely what they would say about the story of Noah's Ark they would say well this is not history this is some kind of

a and story I'm not sure about that it might well be history okay they say it's not history you say it's not history I'm not sure well and I'm just trying to get you to be consistent about um uh because when when it comes to morality you you quite clearly don't take it from the book of Deuteronomy and the Book of Leviticus um so as it were shov all that that on one side so why not why shove Genesis as history into the into the um discard pile you see when scripture talks about certain things

I mean there are s if you take what what book could I say the Book of Ecclesiastes for example my favorite book okay you could you could prove anything from The Book of Ecclesiastes but you have to understand who is writing this and why is he writing it yes and the the writer says right at the beginning he he doesn't have God or doesn't know God he's a very depressed soul I understand why because he thinks there's no point to life it's all ends with with the end why wouldn't he be depressed and so he

comes up with depressing arguments why not yes it's in the Bible yes well I don't believe it um so I mean you're making my point for me there are bits in the Bible you don't believe well I believe it's an accurate record of what he wrote and said that's different to saying therefore that becomes my moral for Life quite but do you also believe that Genesis is an accurate record of History um even though uh nobody was was was around I don't know as I'm clever enough to know the answer to that one um if

let me put the question a slightly different way because I think sometimes we have the wrong question we ask the wrong question you get the wrong answer I think if you ask me really what do I think about that my answer would be do cuz what you're really trying to ask me is do you think the genesy story was true and that God created the world in seven days that's what you would really like to ask me right my answer to that is I don't know however uh did God use Evolution I don't know maybe

he did I believe in a a lawgiver a God right right there actually not behind it right imminent here right now is with us right talkable too having said that do I think that if God wanted to do it in seven days he could yeah I think he could he could do anything yeah yes so so it's a it's a sort of an academic question which actually I don't care about the answer very much really does that make sense kind of yes it does make sense uh it doesn't make sense to me because I do

care about the answer why because I care about what's true and and I I care about what's true yes well I I I find you almost an evangelist for a particular religion but but that that actually is is unfair because of course what I believe is is based on evidence uh it's not not it's not based on a holy book I don't I don't say it is written in the works of St Dar but evidence changes it does indeed change that's right and but but then you say but this is truth because it's based on

evidence that's a fun don't exactly say that you say you say that we're we're struggling towards the truth and as new evidence comes in we refine it and in the middle of that Jesus says I am truth that's the hard one okay well I think we better leave it at that okay thank you very much right thank you for thank you for coming if you enjoyed this episode you can show some support by subscribing to the podcast sharing it with your friends and leaving a review [Music]