Tom Satterly - The Battle of Mogadishu "Black Hawk Down" 30th Anniversary | SRS #77 Part 2

Previously on the Shawn Ryan Show yeah I grew up in Columbus Indiana was little small town cornfields well what got your interest a friend of mine one of my best friends in high school had joined the military and I'm like you're crazy man you know it's like I'm off the basic training and then you know I'll be back in about 2 or 3 months so what was the briefing like when you guys were going Over no news is good news tell your families that no news is good news we don't know when we're coming back

back we don't know if we're going to do anything but we want to go catch a deed I saw a guy across the street pop out with an AK and aim it up he either shot him right in the head or whatever he disappeared in the room his weapon flew out the window was that your first kill the guy on the roof yeah so that was exciting for you it was well before we Head into 3 October let's take another quick break it's October 3rd 2023 and today marks the 30th anniversary of the battle of

Mogadishu which was part of operation Gothic serpent which was in Mogadishu Somalia many of you know this event from the famous movie Blackhawk Down now operation Gothic serpent took place Because the Somali National Alliance was starving their citizens to death and so US forces went in there to help these people out and um it was an operation that took a lot of casualties 18 US service members killed 73 wounded on the other side casualties were much heavier they they estimate in between 300 and 700 casualties on the sming National Alliance lot of trauma lot of

Death it's important that we document these type of events and we learn from them and we honor the men and women who both fought in those battles and more importantly who died and didn't return home from those battles today we have a new friend of mine retired Delta operator this is his last time he will ever speak of this publicly and it's a real honor to be Able to document his testimony ladies and gentlemen without without further Ado please welcome retired Delta operator Tom satly to the Shawn Ryan Show Now take just a moment and

pay your respects to the men who fought and died that Day God bless [Music] America all right Tom we're back from the break we're getting ready to get into October 3rd which I know is a it's a very somber memory for you but um I'm going to I'm just going to spit out a couple of facts and then we'll get into that day but have happened in madisha Somalia October 3rd 1993 began as a 1-hour mission launched with the launch the Mission with Irene Irene Irene was the longest sustained firefight since Vietnam you guys were

fighting with depleted resources limited water limited ammunition limited medical supplies a lot of you were extremely dehydrated and uh lot of physical suffering changed the way the delta in the armed forces conducted Miss from that day forward 18 American soldiers were killed that day you guys were fighting with less Than favorable Rules of Engagement and these countries Somalia do not fight under the Geneva Convention standards so I just wanted to bring a couple of facts um uh before we get into that and then you have also stated uh in previous interviews that American soldiers body

parts began showing up at the base gate in trash bags let's start with the trash bags what hurts me the most about the trash Bags probably happened a couple years ago talking to one of his spouses whose body parts were in that trash bag and she can't use trash bags she just can't use trash bags anymore to think of that I don't know what the delivery was for I don't know if it was to give them back and that's just the only way to do it after they hacked them apart and dragged them to the

street But I mean that's sad when you that's how you identify people as in body parts and trash bags delivered to your front gate I think it might have been of something to try to appease us maybe to slow us down from what I think they knew would be hell unleashing that we wanted to yeah or taunting you know I don't know what their purpose was uh but it certainly angered everyone who were these Guys I think the body parts were from uh probably part Gary Gordon and Randy schugar and maybe one of the crew

chiefs that they had overrun that that crash site number two where guys had gone in once the guys got on the ground and fought their way to them two two other snipers that request to be put in three times were denied and then finally give him the okay to go in just crash site number Two I mean they didn't find anything it was too late um everybody had been taken out they'd captured Durant um and so they came about exfilled back out but I think they all the body parts came from that crash site fck

man cuz we we stuck around our crash site all night waiting for body parts to get the Pilots they were buried underneath the helicopter that flipped as it crashed and so we couldn't get them out Until we had a heavy vehicle to pull it you know the helicopter away and so that's why we ended up staying there the whole night to repatriate those those bodies that were C you know caught underneath the helicopter I don't even I couldn't even tell you how many days after that the body part showed up it was just a haze

for for me I just was angry I wanted to go back out and I wanted to kill everybody it's just a a response you Know a traumatic response to how dare you we the US you know how simple of a thought process was that for me like how dare you we the good guys I just remember thinking that night just just let us go just let us out of this house and we'll go home you know just let us Ease on out of here and let's stop this [ __ ] you know uh of course

it didn't but yeah that was a long night let's go to the morning of October 3rd let's just go through the whole day yeah I remember waking up it was a sunny day it was nice um and they were going to I mean I think they had decided already to play some volleyball like officers versus ncos and whatnot I remember thinking I'm going to go out for a run I I wasn't going to play volleyball so I I went out I was going to go out for a run around the airport and uh remember when

I was leaving they had taped the commander to A cot and propped him up as one of the players so they couldn't count him as a player so trying to spike the ball into his face and whatnot but um I remember seeing that when I was leaving and laughing it was completely taped at this CAU and I went off for my run halfway through the Run maybe um pagis went off I try to run all the way back and as fast as I could it was like one of those oh my God I can't believe

I'm halfway out a five mile run I got to Run all the way back and uh get kitted up and get on the heers by the time I got back they already firing the heers up people were starting to run out I'm kitting up as fast as I can and grabbed everything I could and you know what's what's going on be back in an hour you know one of those say okay I don't need nods I don't need water I'm gone let's go but everybody kind of thought that everybody did the same thing loaded up

on the heilos and sat There for a while I mean we sat there for a little bit I had no idea what was going on but it was the guy on the ground sending the signal in front of the wrong building kind of thing yes they're here is you know is he afraid to do it put up the vs7 panel and show us in the sky that yes this is the meeting house kind of thing so we're waiting for that develop um we're sitting on the helicopter we don't know there just blades are turning we're

waiting um how Many of you guys are there I want to say an all 90 maybe is with the Rangers and everything um total in 90 how many Delta guys H let's see let me do the math I think we plused up with other Squadron people I know we did so it would have been 36 maybe 40 40 maybe maybe mostly Rangers you know mostly they're the larger element to surround Us so we can do our job you know didn't didn't work out that way yeah so uh made a back sit on the bird waiting

uh team leader comes comes out and starts screaming you know we're doing this blah blah blah we're going here you like okay it's just like always right they call the Irene Irene Irene we take off and launch and and next thing you know it's browning Out already we're starting to come in it's already Brown out the little birds have made a gun run um the other little birds have come in and landed on the corners of the buildings wherever they need to go so they're on top and it just the Blackhawks came in for the

rain to set them on the Outer Perimeter and it browned everything out so our Hilo had to get set on outside the perimeter we were supposed to get dropped right in front of the target we had to drop Outside the perimeter in a clear area and we started taking fire so we had to identify any house to to go in for cover so we just picked a house went in I remember this huge man just this huge man standing there in front of me like but but but a gentle huge man you know and women

behind him screaming and and and and he's holding a baby like a little baby in his hands and I'm trying to pull him over to get him to get away from the door and to take a knee my Friends comeing and screaming cuz he doesn't see the baby now he's this big man turn around he thinks I'm struggling with him you know and he's trying to get this big man down kicking him behind the knees and I'm trying no grabbing the baby you know I'm trying to keep the baby and the guy goes down to

his knees hand him the baby and you know they cuff him and made a plan like how do we going to get out of here we got to get out of Here and get back around to the Target um so we just kind of devised a quick plan waited for things to settle down in the dirt and everything so we could see pulled back out of the house turned back down the road we were on um and I remember moving on both sides of the street um and and me and me and the other guy

Jake were in the middle and I remember two vehicles really nice vehicles coming out of that area with nice dressed you know four Nice dressed men in each one and I thought I stopped the vehicles screaming on my team leader Pete what do we do hey this could be them this might be him you know and he like it's not the target keep going like [ __ ] so we keep going I mean I don't know right what is the target it is a just one of the houses that they were having a meeting in

a bunch of the adids leaders were having a meeting there it was just a home and capture kill yeah okay yeah hopefully to Capture to get information on a deed um not sadly but most of them died on the xfill in the in the in the five ton by their own people but um fought our way into that Target and they had already had everyone detained you know um handcuffed but they had pulled out to move to another building to pull a security so we went in and started searching the building finding AKs here and

there underneath stuff you know they had these huge 50 lb bags of sugar they Were making cocacola or something there it was weird I remember searching up top like pulling out these 50 lb bags of sugar and looking underneath them and one guy was handcuffed on the ground already and I remember dropping one of those bags and it landed on him he's like let out this Mo I'm like oh man you know I didn't want to do that right and and so we search in the old place and and I'm asking people Questions and nobody's

answering you right and there's a safe there I'm like who knows a combo to the safe nobody say anything all right interpreter who knows combo is safe as him nobody says anything okay next person that doesn't know the combo is safe is going to get shot in the face you know some is the combo this I'm like oh that works you know threatening people works so open up the save sack Sali money there I'm like yes I have big Score for me right put in a garbage bag you know and I got cash in a

garbage bag I got on my shoulder we're going to xfill um and I'm going to have this bag of cash you know I won the day and so we're prepping for xville and I hear an RPG and Sun explosion end up looking down the street it's one of the fets got hit and I'm like uhoh like whoa you know like we're getting we're hit getting hit now that's Weird the fact that we' already taken fire on infi um and we had already lost one Ranger who fell 90 fet a Blackburn I don't know what I

either didn't grab the Rope the brown out whatever fell 90 ft and landed instantly had a metac for him and so they I think they loaded him up on a humb and we're driving back to try to get him which saved his life um so we're down those people and that was on infill um catch back up to prepping to xville now I remember moving around that Building to another Courtyard probably off of that building metal walls you know the metal gates that they open and Clos there's a car parked in there and there was

two teams in there my team and uh I don't know another team from us and then some Rangers and we shut the gate we're kind of waiting on the vehicle Convoy to roll up and we'll get in and we'll go home and I thought I'm going slash the it was that wasn't first I remember Standing our waiting deck Phi laughing I got the bag of cash on my shoulder we're talking man hope he make it back for dinner you know we're still cracking jokes and then that Ranger's neck just opened up right there and it

kind of fell over you see a hole in the Middle Gate I'm like you know oh [ __ ] the Medics jump on him start grabbing up his neck and I'm like oh this is is growing into something something worse you know I remember getting nervous but Still like we're going to be home for dinner right you know just joking around and then another RPG and I remember looking up and seeing it hit the helicopter the tail of the helicopter you saw it hit yeah and it just started Auto rotating I'm like oh man no

no no you know and it crashed a little bit Northwest of us or Northeast of us and uh devised another quick plan right calling up higher you know whatever team leaders doing the time I I know now he Was calling a high getting you know where's it at guide me to it get the Convoy to go to it you know the mission had just changed you know now we got to get to that Hilo load up on both side of the streets you know put out you know the pilots um know them no I know

who they were yeah their names a little bit yeah um but no I wouldn't say I knew them you know I used to say I knew everybody I'm friends with everybody now I've learned that Your acquaintance you know we're friends if you know my kids middle names or something you know then we're close um back then you know well we're all one you know but I didn't I couldn't say that I knew them and I remember lining up on both side of the streets and heading that way you know and just moving in a column

both sides of the streets um cross covering for each other and every intersection we crossed on our way was Just a hail of gunfire I remember single one huh yeah every single one and they were paralleling us trying to beat us to the crash site and so knew we had to speed up so we gave up security by using speed and every intersection just hell bullet you had just kind of wait and then go and I remember going past one I was there weren't people at it and I was kind of watching around the corner

waiting for other people to cross and and then this donkey comes walking Across the street just standing there like he's just chilling and then we start taking fire and I realize they're shooting from behind the donkey you know you start seeing feet behind the donkey I'm like all right you got to drop the donkey to drop the dudes I remember shooting the donkey and it took off and then those dudes are standing with their you know guns in their hands like uh-oh donkey's gun like man they'll do anything to get At us you know and

I remember thinking I remember call my team or my one of my friends over look at this thing man what's this donkey doing just standing he goes I don't know it's crazy and then you up we get you know taking fire so we realize what was happening kept moving down the street and finally turned to head north and we had a couple blocks to go a couple Somalian blocks to go which is just you Know not that far probably 50 yards maybe 100 yards at the most and remember turning the corner the other team took

the other you know the other couple teams took the far side of the street and they were in the lit side I think the sun was setting you know on this side now and it's lighting up the east side of the street so we weren't in as much and they were taking more fire and from up near the crash site I remember my 2ic jumping out middle of The street and I jumped out with him with my M4 and he shot the 203 down and and hit literally hit this building I mean this little Shack

just pass the crash where one dude was in he just jumped out and I mean it was it was a lucky shot and he knows it too it was one of those that hit it I was like holy [ __ ] and then one guy came running out and we're sitting there engaging and right but before I had walked out in the middle of the street with him I remember Looking over and I saw Earl and his team shooting up the street and when I looked back there were two people dragging Earl into their building

and I mean I didn't see him get shot or anything I just thought what happened to Earl you know he fall down I mean Earl got killed instantly um shot right through our plastic Protek helmets you know so we could be faster right lightweight Protech skateboard helmets um we ended up pushing further down the Street worked our way down and I remember Paul how was a team ler he was angry I remember his anger and he had ended up on our side of the street somehow and his team was on the other side and we

got down to the crash site and our our team ended up being the furthest North and the furthest west of all the fighting we were that corner with the crash site being here and everyone else being this way down the street injured and wounded in the Rangers and whatnot I remember Paul coming over just pissed off and screaming and it's just all screwed up and blah blah blah we got to take this house I'm like all right Paul but chill bro chill I mean this is you know you got to you got to be under

and he kicks the door and we go in it's full of women and one guy again we end up caring them all into the living room kids in the living room and then this one guy handcuffed left in the living Room we end up dominating that house and that's where we stayed the rest of the night had a carport with a little metal roof covered sliding into the carport for some reason it seemed backwards to me with an entrance you know the kitchen off to the right a living room off to the left a little

bathroom just off the kitchen and then three bedrooms tiny tiny little home but it was right on the corner of the crash site so we just occupied every Room pulling guard out every window um I didn't know anybody was killed or wounded yet by then before we even made it to that crash site the um the rescue bird had come in and they had faster up they took an RPG right to the rotor blades as they were faster up again at the crash site and so they ended up pilot held that beautifully they ended up

fast roping all in and then trying to secure the Crash site before we even got there and and before we even got there the Somalians had gotten there and they were overwhelming the helicopter so Dan Bush had jumped out and ran out of cover range and ran around the corner with the saw to dispatch as many salies as he could to defend the crash site but he in turn got killed doing that as well uh got shot doing that so another guy runs out and grabs him another sniper ran out and grabbed Him and as

he was dragging him out of the way a little bird came and landed in the intersection with a pilot shooting mp5s out the window um to help them he got shot through the neet NE pulling Dan to the Hilo to put him in and he kept he tried to get back in the fight and they wouldn't let him they made him get on the bird as well and they exfilled both of them and Dan ended up dying of his wounds and I didn't know any of that till the end these are all your guys Yeah

and so that's how the night started no water um no night vision we're set up poorly on a on an undominated intersection with a crash site and just they just kept coming they just kept coming all night they kept trying to Pro probe our our our weaknesses coming up the Alleyways uh tearing down our buildings with RPGs just picking away at the walls and then you'd hear the helicopters calling in you know the ISR above telling us hey There's a convoy vehicles moving in you know we're going to send the little birds over and see

what's happening but you can't do anything until they actually enter the area but they were Trucking people people in from everywhere found out years later Al-Qaeda was training there at the time how many guys do you estimate coming at us coming at you that night maybe 500 to 1,000 500 to 1,000 I mean they just kept coming I know I Heard reports that the I mean who knows these reports are real that the hospital had filled up that night you know from wounded from them um but they would load him up truck after truck and

pipe them in and and who really got the most kills were the little birds coming and just keeping them off of us I mean danger close Rockets right across the street guys were R out in the out in the streets underneath cars and the brass from the Min guns would fall on them and Freak out I mean it was funny what happened to me I was freaked out it's hot and it's heavy and it hurts you think you're getting shot you don't know what it is and it's like oh and then in the morning when

the 10th Mountain showed up to help pull us out same thing happened to them they're all freaking out I'm like don't worry about it man it's old school [ __ ] that happened earlier in the night but yeah it just kicked off to we Wave after wave after wave I how close uh me to you that close yeah same position yeah they'd make it that close at one point in the night me and another buddy were laying down at the gate facing the crash site open car you know carport gate and from this direction were

all the Rangers to the right and to the left is the bad guy territory and two local smes with AKs over the shoulders just walking talking Came from that direction the Rangers Direction and walked right in front of us I looked at my buddy I'm like he looks at me I'm like he goes oh well you know once they got out of out of line of sight from the team across the street he opened up I opened up and one dropped and the other one ran around the corner you know and then probably died too

a little bit later but I like the nerve man did they forget we were here I mean and how did they get here from all the Way down there right who didn't shoot them from down there they would come up I was sit sitting on a window um on a bed poking my weapon out of a window covered with bars at a house this far away looking at a wooden shutters to another window and I could hear people rustling around in there with weapons and you could hear them charging weapons and talking and I just

shoot through the the wooden shutters and then you hear Him screaming and run out and then you hear them later talking again and I know they were going to open that window and and do something and literally 3 feet apart and I just keep shooting through the wooden shutters um so I sat there for a while and at one point I heard this clicking and dragging clicking and dragging and I'm like I hear something and I look down and there's there's a full a Simoleon on his hands and knees with an AK in front Of

him crawling up to my window and I tried to get my M4 out there and I couldn't get it out there and I pulled my 45 out stuck my hand through the bars and was aiming it literally at the top of his head and I pulled the trigger and it was so full of sand from the rotor wash the hammer Falls halfway and it just sticks there you got to be [ __ ] I'm like what the [ __ ] Reco it safe lay it on the bed I'm like I pulled out one of those

little Austrian grenades those little ones and pulled the pen and I showed it to the guy standing on the door was watching the window he's like like he just steps in the hallway and I stuck my hand out the window again and look I remember dropping it and I remember him looking up like what was that you know and start to move to get up and I just laid on the bed and that thing went off into the whole ceiling was just covered and I remember This smell of burnt hair and then somebody came in

screaming what was that you know and I instantly I'm in trouble right the guy at the door goes he just threw a grenade and I go oh no I was a flashbang I lied right about it cuz I thought I was in trouble and he's over there going no no it was a grenade it was a grenade go you're right it was a grenade look at this [ __ ] you know look at the ceiling man what do you think I threw a grenade For and then I'm defensive right and uh I thought man you

know it didn't even hit me then I thought I finally got to use a grenade was my thought you know other than basic training I got to I got to use a grenade and then they kept switching positions so you'd stay awake and I ended up being in the carport standing up on the hood of a car to the same Alleyway that I just blew that dude up in and uh I could hear More rustling around and I'm leaning against that metal roof that slopes towards me but it drops off in the alleyway and I'm

thinking I could slide a grenade up that way right and it just fall right over and I remember thinking but if I don't make it it'll slide back down to us right so I'm like all right I got to really Chuck this Gren I remember having this conversation with myself like if I don't do this right I'm going to frag the whole command element and my Team who are in the carport taking care of two Rangers which I'll get to that story um soend up sliding that grenade really hard up on there and I think

it hit the wall and fell down and blew up I don't know what happened but I ended up doing a lot of suppressive fire you know cuz looking around these Corners you could hear people I'm just shooting skipping off walls trying to keep people away versus just trying to kill people back In the day you don't shoot unless you have a Target right and it's a threat then it was to me then it turned into suppressive fire um just to keep people away but those you know those two Rangers in the court they were out

on the corner of the building pulling pulling security uh to the West with a saw and there was two of them and it was off the corner where one of my friends was pulling guard out the window At the crash site I remember I was I was the one p position now that had a free float I didn't have to have a window for the time and that was your break you know and so I'm walking around going you need water you need water and I'm pouring water out of flower pots you know cuz we

don't have water pouring them into canteen cups and little pipe dripping out of the wall I'm like whatever man we're eating eyey pills here's an eyey Pill and I'll drink it you know cuz we're so thirsty and I remember grabbing his canteen and I turned around walked out the room and I turned back around to ask him a question with my two I see sitting on a couch in the hallway like right here and I turn to look at my my friend and I'm like I started asking a question the room just explodes and things

hit you know grael gravel wall parts hit me in the face and I'm just standing there looking in the room which is now on fire and and my two i's like what was that I go I don't know you know just like conversational and then it hit me and I screamed RPG and I went running into the room cuz you know Jake was in there and I remember looking I mean you couldn't see and I remember looking down and I saw what I thought was his leg and I went to pick it up and it

was his concrete beam that was on top of him and I threw it off and somebody else Rick came in to help as well and I remember him just coming up just groaning for air all all the air knocked out of his lungs cuz he was leaning against that wall that the RPG hit and that wall had dissipated the effects of the RPG other than the explosives and it just kind of knocked his uh wind out of his lungs knocked him over and I'm that hurt for a while and then left a huge hole in

our house staring right at the crash Site I remember pulling the door shut thinking man they can see right in here now and I saw a glow coming out from underneath the door like pretty soon and opened up up and the couch was on fire cuz that RPG motor had snapped off it was such a short distance that it was flying around the room still and then stuck under the couch and caught it on fire so now I'm running outside trying to put this I'm filling flower pots up again and I'm run back in and

port on The couch and I'd go out and throw up because of this you know the noxious whatever that couch is made of in Somalia go back in there pour more water on it go back out and throw up from the smell go back in and pour water and finally put it out and I remember thinking we have a huge open hole now the next one's going to hit the living room right this wall stopped the next's going to hit to the living room so I ended up putting mattresses up on Every wall and I

pull a mattress I'd lean it up against the wall which everybody's making fun of me at the time you know and I remember coming back when the house got hit with another RPG with another one of my teammates sitting there the mattress had protected him from all the all the wall flying in um I remember walking in going see see I told you man few Choice words but those two Rangers that were outside that Wall had to run out and drag them in and I drugg the Hispanic kid in I don't remember his name and

the other guy somebody else drugging the other the other cat working on him um they're they're tore up pretty good and the Medics are working on him and I'm just helping what do you need what do you need what do you need and cut his pants off of the Hispanic and I mean his his nuts were gone pretty much he's got shot in the butt shrap or whatever and it Kind of just blown in he was bleeding out and I remember putting the mass trousers on him airing him up trying to air him up and

get the pressure on him and uh and after packing you know him with gauze and another another teammate well another team member from across the street come over anybody need any help and he looks down before I got the mass trouses on he's like oh man you're missing your nuts and I'd been lying to that dude cuz he's hispanic and he's Wanting to start a big family you know and I go wait a minute you know because they don't teach you that you don't walk up and go oh that's horrible you walk up go you're

going to be all right buddy right you give him hope I've been giving him hope and he walked up just blurted it out like oh [ __ ] man you know and that guy starts freaking out what what do you mean what do you mean I go dude you're good you're still good you know you had one left and you only need one You know he ended up being good he ended up being good down the road and the other guy had his his whole heel blown off um still in his boot still in his

Bo still in his Boot and you can see the whole boot leather torn in his heel it was just disgusting and I remember just putting air boot on him boot on and everything you know packing that put air boot on him and they were good the rest of the night really you know just monitored Them across the street a lot of people saw saw the movie um if you see the movie Blackhawk Down they're working on the guy's femoral artery kept slipping away they couldn't get it that was right across the street um horrible for

the Medics that worked on him years later they talked about it the fact they just kept trying to save him we didn't have blood we didn't have you know um IVs we didn't have anything to give this Kid who just slowly died you know just bled out with the Medics doing everything they could cutting him down trying to clamp off his arteries it just was too far gone all of which I didn't know you know until later so we got this big hole in our roof you know I got people creeping up and it just

continues all night long just all we could do is switch positions keep firing running out we ran out of Ammo didn't have any water completely ran out of ammo at one point I had a knife on the bed thinking all right you know this is the day and uh I thought I remember thinking I'm going to do as much damage as I can before I'm gone you know and uh that's when the team leader runs in and I could hear the Convoy in in the city the 50 cows RPGs you know the the dish gets

going off and you knew the differences and louder and louder You're like and then it get softer and softer you know went around and kept getting blocked by burning tires and it just kept getting blocked from us and team leader came in I'm like hey are they going to make it you know and he was like no no I don't know and that's that's when I had my knife on the bed and I remember thinking I was terrified and that's when it all got better when I reserved and relented to The fact that I was

going to die it got better there was nothing to be fear fearful of anymore I I knew my destiny and that's all I wanted to do you know and back then we didn't have speed balls we didn't we didn't resupply we're in and out you know that's all we did so back in the rear they're packing boxes they're putting stuff together and then the helicopter flies over and hovers right over us start pushing ammo Out water jugs out they're exploding the ammo is exploding and rounds are going everywhere in the dirt and then they take

fire from the house directly to our right second floor we didn't know anybody was in that building and that's when another friend got shot in the face he was eye Lev with that guy hovering in the cber shot and he was one of the snipers that's when he got shot in the face um he lived through that and then being the young Guy with the youngest guy being injured me being the youngest guy that's not injured go out and grab that ammo right I'm like wait a minute go grab it now cuz there's [ __

] going up and down the street you know they're called bullets it's like we need it go get it and I remember thinking I got so mad I just stormed out there and got on my hands and knees and start grabbing all that I could run and dump it grab all I could run in and dump it I was just pissed and Then grab all the water and brought it in so everything is in our room now what do you think is next disseminate that water and ammo hey Tom take this water across the street

you know 30 ft can last a long time mhm you got two five gallon watered cans in your hand and and you start to run it gets farther and farther away as you slow down and you're you know trying to run but everything's in slow motion then as it speeds up as I get to the Door I remember thinking and Screaming Eagle Eagle Eagle cuz I'm thought I'm going to get shot by my own people now cuz I'm running in this house you know and I didn't I don't know if anybody told him I'm coming

Screaming Eagle Eagle Eagle I run I dropped the water cancer there's nobody in the house now I'm terrified am I in the right house did they leave you know who's in here so I kind of work my way back and they're dealing with Business in the back side of their house you know you know um cuz the crash site was directly adjacent to the side of their house they're dealing with people creeping up the back hey you got some water in front I'll bring some ammo over you know good we're running out so had to

run back across grab ammo run back across take him some ammo come back across I'm thinking man I hate being the young guy you know the new guy that point the new guy got up he was He he better shook it off and then you know it was one of those uh like I said all night long repeated stories of just wait waves of people coming Little Birds going back rearming getting ammo coming back out they you know they blew through crew rest for once in their lives they blew through crew rest and kept going

and it was one of those things um that kept us alive and then before right before Sun break or sun up it was the 10th Mountain Came walking down both sides of the street like it was a Monday you know and they were going to the park and uh they had two Packy vehicles with them in the back and I remember one guy coming in started anybody got any dip I'm like bro do you know what we've been doing all night and you come in looking for dip and you just got here you know what

I mean it was one of those weird things and uh they set up like they normally do out in the streets we're Like I wouldn't do that man I would I would watch what you're doing cuz none of that worked for us all night long and you know some of those guys start getting shot at but they finally got the the vehicles up there pulled the Hilo off the off the bodies put all the bodies on top of the two vehicles we had cuz the rest of the Convoy was about a mile away on the

Main Street they couldn't make it you know no armor wants to go down the a tight Street like that without infantry so they ended up sending just two through all the bodies on top and all the wounded inside it was like okay load up and we're going to head on out I thought man I was getting happy you know flipped the handle on one of those things start to climb in the back and all I saw you know you can always get one more in a military vehicle right how many as a hold one more

you'll get one more in there not that day I literally Opened the door and it was like Sardine Can of Rangers and it just pulled it shut locked it back and I'm like well I can't get in this vehicle nobody can you can't get on top it's covered in bodies so they devised another plan we'll walk along the vehicles they'll use we'll use them for cover and then we'll get back that was a good plan until the first rounds came right and then those Vehicles took off and we're just standing there and that's that's the

Madichi mile started running and gunning ala's out of ammo again I remember people were dropping mags and reloading their mags and I'd pick up a MAG off the ground knock the dirt out of and stick in and I'd three rounds you know in there and I'd grab another mag and it was that bad yeah it was probably for me anyway I mean I don't you know guys are dropping mags with three I'm like all right you're not apparently not off bad as bad Off it as I am because I have zero mags with zero bullets

so I'd pick them up and start using them um and then I remember getting to that heading south and getting to that corner where we going to turn back West towards the Target that we hit that night and I remember they were sending an Apache in to Rocket the Blackhawk we had already put a cind are on it but they wanted to Rocket it destroy it more So nobody could use anything in it and I saw the Apache moving around coming on in I thought I'm going to stop and watch I've never seen this before

right it just stopped on that corner I start watching just kept hovering and moving and back and forth I'm like it's going to take forever it's regular army probably so I turned and my team was gone everybody was gone I'm like what was I what was I thinking what was I doing I just took off running down the Street in the direction that I knew we had to go and I got halfway down that street and one of the Medics jumped out said Tom here and he basically pushed me in between two walls in an

Alleyway right as an RPG hit now I don't know that he knew that he was just grabbed me to get my attention ryen RPG hit with which messed up his ear but as right as he pushed me into that wall so I I missed out on that again he got lucky on that one um swap Some magazines you know and headed back out and and shooting in every door and window that you could you know you just don't know who's shooting at you in the city so you just shoot at what you see and I

remember finally making it back to all of the vehicles and all the tanks and and it was weird that the tanks were just shooting into the city these armored vehicles are just rocking It 10th Mountain was rocking 50s into the City and you know Mark 19s and launching grenades and God knows what direction what they saw just it was it was a sight to see I remember looking up at one of the Packy drivers I was like smacked him on the head and he looked at me I'm like thank you like thank you and he's

he just look back like he was terrified you know like imagine the whole night not in that vehicle you know it's just they Didn't want to be there more than any of us didn't and then they were trying to devise a plan on how to get us out and the whole plan was to load everybody up and go to the Pakistani Stadium which was close then fly everybody back to the Airfield in the in the hilos and up until about two years ago I didn't know why but our two Humvees unarmored Humvees that we loaded

up in the back of just start driving and we shooting Everything on the streets we could see until we crossed that road you know the good clans and I mean I think I was still shooting towards an that people somebody screaming me hey hey we crossed the road I'm like I look and there's a dude stand on the side of the road just chewing c you know getting high and I'm like oh okay all right all right we're good we cross you know you're still watching people now right and it was terrifying we pulled up

on like burning Tires and the driver start what do I do and I go don't you [ __ ] stop whatever you do don't stop plow through it I don't give a [ __ ] but you're not stopping you know so we plow through that made it to the back gate of the Airfield went in the gate and sat there for like 30 minutes like where's where's everybody at they should be right behind us you know where you at radio was dead so I couldn't you know talk to anybody there's a picture of me sitting

on that Home V with the 10 Mountain riding on it you know and whatnot and me sitting on there I B bummed a cigarette off one of those dudes I'm smoking a cigarette next to two other team guys like and I remember turning to look at him and go do you realize who you just rescued you know like you just pulled us out of the fight you know and uh I had that little moment with a cigarette and then I said we got to drive around back to where we live find out what's going On

and that's when I realized the night as we're driving up to our hanger across the street from us was the medical tent the hospital which the nurses would scream at us every night cuz they never got mortared until we showed up and then we got mortared every night and they were pissed off that we were there because you know we drew in the mortar rounds and I remember pulling up and right before we turn in our gate there Was a little cutout at off the side of the road and I remember seeing I 12 bodies

maybe covered in Poncho liners or ponchos but you could see the boots and I know the difference between Adidas's assault boots and tan desert boots and I knew who wore who who wore what I thought there's way too many Adidas salt boots right there you know I have no idea what's going on and we got in and I saw got in the Gate I saw two Humvees with RPG blasts on the sides and in the windshields and bullet holes and blood on the ground and sand everywhere blood in the vehicles and the smell of bleach

I'll never forget that smell I've smelled it and it takes me right back in a second and it's uh you know they bring the vehicles back throw sand to absorb the blood throw bleach on it and then load them back up and send Them back out to try to get to us and that's when I I that's when the helicopter started coming back the landing and people started getting out and that's when we started getting worried as to who was gone who was missing you know I'm missing or missing people how do you Miss people

there's always a headcount I always thought how do people go missing P Mia who the who the hell goes missing right you got a buddy you don't go Missing right and I didn't understand it until you go to war and you're in the chaos and the battle and you're defending your spot and you're looking through these toilet paper tubes so you know when you tell your War Story somebody's standing right to your left or right it's goingon to call you a liar maybe because they didn't see what you saw you know they're looking through the

same thing that fear of that's all I see you know then you look over here and That's all you see you know and you got your head on swivel but if you're not focusing you don't your head on swiv you don't see anything so you have to focus focus focus focus and so everybody's doing the same things telling their own story and once the hilos came back we started getting word and we heard missing and then we immediately I know we went back and started watching the news and it was already on the news and

that's when I saw him dragging bodies Through the street and I'm like who who's that what what's where's this at you know then you realize you're the star of the show you know and that's that's that's you and then you realize it's in the news is it that bad like what you know and all I could do was rearm reload grab my nods for sure a ton of water and ready to go back out just ready to go back out found out Gary Randy Pilots were missing you know Durant was Missing you know and then

uh all we could do is wait they wouldn't let us go back out they were just trying to Jin up Intel and figure out what was going on and they were flying Signature Flight still they were flying around broadcasting you know we won't forgive we won't stop looking for you and then another Squadron came over and we were told we're being replaced we're too decimated too angry they wouldn't let us go back out and so All we could do was train up the other Squadron on what we had seen and what we had done and

I remember sitting back and watching and it struck me two different targets hit at the same time over here C Squadron over here's a squadron the replacement Squadron and over here you couldn't see a head everybody that hit the building was down low nobody's in a window and over here you saw people walking around like In training you know looking around peeking through Windows I'm like don't do that don't do that in the city you lose everything you lose your head you get shot man you get shot by a little kid you know turn ACC

Court you see 15-year-old or younger kids holding AKs you know what do you do what do you do women come running out with AKs what do you do you got to survive and so the flight back was quite a weird one for me flight Back home yeah was kind of empty a lot more empty with the knowledge of what had happened and the news and I remember nobody had called home and I I remember friend of a friend and I had went over and grabbed a phone off of the 10 10th Mountain division or something

on the other side of the Airfield and like oh you got a sap phone huh called home and let him know you Know we were alive even though hopefully the unit had done that but the units you know ideas no news is good news if we don't call you don't worry you know like you tell a spouse that right mhm that didn't really work out I remember the flight back was just one of those Quiet Ones just reflecting on on what happened and and and why and and who was gone and who was injured and

and would they make it and and the and the images of everything coming into Your head and I remember Landing they we didn't land at Fort Bragg or Pope because it was too much uh publicity on what had just happened so we landed uh I don't South Carolina I don't know what taking buses for a couple hours back back to work putting my kid away and then walking out and getting my my ex-wife's car and I I distinctly remember after the entire event the shrink came up and talked to us right before we left in

the Hanger and he said now listen guys you've been through some traumatic experiences that you don't realize yet and they're going to hit you sooner or later I goes so if you go home and you become overwhelmed by emotions or an event it's normal remember elbow on my friend like this this freaking loser man what does he mean man you know we're warriors fast forward I get my my wife's car she drives me home I don't say a Word which was normal for us and we got home and I got out of the car we

walked inside said in said a word I set my bag down and I turned and looked at her and she says so how was it I start balling I started balling she had no idea what to do like whoa like how was it I like was it good right that's the answer you get good I just started balling man until I fought It Off I just was Sobbing I never told her what happened I just sobbed until she left and I stopped crying I don't know how long it was later I kind of told that

to one of my close friends at the time and he kind of shared with me he did the same thing and I'm like oh this shit's real huh I mean it really happens just don't tell anybody about it right that was uh I remember thinking then that shrink knows something he predicted something You know like he's a Seer it was weird and I started listening to him a little more after that you know trying to get better to yeah um not about Somalia just about how to be better I think they probably knew you know

cuz they said you know you keep climbing these mountain tops and then you climb the higher one and you see a Higher One you climb it when are you going to sit down and enjoy the Mountaintop I go is there another one like is there another unit to go to better than this I'll go there you know bigger higher does more like just just enjoy the mountain toop man you're on it just enjoy it you know you're too busy chasing something else and I never listen to that you know I I didn't I only listen

to what I want to if it fit my agenda and it fit my story line I would listen to it if it didn't I Didn't want to have anything to do with it because I didn't want to leave that unit because all I wanted to do was never let that happen again so I worked harder I trained harder I start moving into leadership positions I made my men train harder I tried to teach them as much as I had learned as as they moved out and the new kids came in how much we'd learned um

which I found out later most Of them thought we were bipolar [ __ ] cuz they didn't realize why we behav the way we behaved um just aggressive and angrily and spoke to everybody like they were [ __ ] you know um because we hated the world and we didn't know it but we wanted to impart upon them as much knowledge to not let that happen again ever and that started my life of um one I'd given up on life my switch had flipped I didn't care in Somalia I lost my empathy and compassion For

humans you know if your life was [ __ ] up you should have thought about that in high school right you should have made better decisions you know you got yourself where you're at I didn't care and all I wanted to do was train all I wanted to do was be better so I could stop that from happening again and it never would never happen to my people and so all I was picking up all that time was you're not good Enough Tom how many teammates did you lose what Dan Bush had just left our

team and G went to snipers and so I consider we lost him cuz he was on our team for a while we lost Grizz Martin who was on our team he was driving our vehicle our humb that we had we had up armored with Plywood And sandbags and an RPG went right through the wheel well where we couldn't Armor the rear one and hit him on his right hip as a driver and detonated his 45 which went off and then melted his 45 and injured him so bad that he died while they tried to save

him and I could keep going with suicides from that battle or early deaths from God knows what you know and I certainly can outline lost lot lives like family lives from that Event but the thing that strikes me the most is we never got to bury anyone we never got to say goodbye because it all happened before we got home and the only person that I didn't realize had done so much that night until I got back and saw those vehicles and then heard the stories who died two three days later when a mortan landed

basically on him right after a memorial ceremony for all those we had Lost on 3 October was Matt Ryerson he came out for us four or five times at least get turned around come back drop off the wounded recruit more and come back out again lose people turn around go back get more and come back out again and again cuz that's who he was and then two days later he died and It Mor around hit him and took out our commander as well and a couple other people one of my best friends at the time

I had just walked past them talking there from the ported bodies and chitchat for a second my friend stayed I went back to the cot laid down you know was chilling and I stood up to grab some kit and then an explosion you know I don't I didn't know at the time a chunk of asphalt hit me in my leg and I started bleeding there and I was like what think somebody blew up a charge I mean oh [ __ ] somebody had an ad with an explosive and then I heard screaming and I just

took off running in that direction and I remember out of the smoke comes Jake hopping on one leg cuz he had his Achilles ttin and sliced almost 90% through and he couldn't couldn't walk on it and I remember grabbing him and throwing him on a cot and just wrapping up his his Because he was in shorts and flipflops you know wrapping up his Achilles tin and as they started to carry away screaming avenge me avenge me Tom I'll never forget that funny funny [ __ ] in the middle of all that but they I mean

the docks came over the hospital's right next door the docks came over our Medics were all over it our our commander had been Gravely wounded I mean he pulled through but I'll never forget his Screaming I'll never forget as tough of a man as he was football player there just a big big man with a big heart who just recently passed away just screaming in pain and it wouldn't stop I remember laying in the bunker cuz they made us all go to the bunker except for the wounded and Medics they moving them I remember laying

in the bunker just covering my ears I Couldn't couldn't hear it anymore and then the cries for blood came out we need blood we need blood we're all donating as much blood as we could and and they were trying to keep Matt alive and keeping Gary alive and the Matt didn't make it Matt we got the Barry Matt we have a memorial for by the time they had memorial memorial for Matt we were back home and it was dress greens nadaa Iowa I was part of the 21 gun salute team you know and I'm so

I'm thank goodness I'm outside um for for the hard part you know when the bugler and the back pipes play I was happy to be outside and I'm glad I got to do that with Matt at least you know he was he was like uh took me in as a as a father and came out for all of us you know until he died and everybody took on his kids as a Family he had two young boys the spouses are some of the strongest women on the planet most of them get cancer the military drops

them two years after I think the death or seven years whatever that time is three three years and then that's about the time they're developing Cancers and I know a lot of them that have and are fighting it here your husband's a medal of honor Winner and you're not being taken care of properly it's just a sad State the [ __ ] those people went through and for them not to take care of their spouses you know for as long as they need it some of them I know they wouldn't remarry just wouldn't remarry for

20 30 years like one of them just recently finally married to a loving man who took his sons in and just that she would not marry she Couldn't marry she was in love that was who she was married to you know and and uh I'm glad she finally finally worked through that and and can move her life on you know remarried and and hopefully move on I know I try that's why this is my last one cuz I don't get this detailed typically and it still hurts you know yeah it's funny people say well tell

me about Somaya well let's talk About Somaya instantly I feel it you know and I'm start gritting my teeth and jaw muscles start poking out you're like trying to get through it but it's that heavy and I've done a lot I've done a lot of work in the last 10 years on myself it's still heavy and that's my worry you know for everybody out there is that the ones that are like I'm good fit as a fiddle you know that [ __ ] didn't affect Me yeah it did yeah it did you just don't want

to admit it you know how could that not affect you how could losing that many friends in in an 18h hour period not affect you I got a speeding ticket years later doing 90 I 104 and a 40 you know whatever I was out in Salt Lake City driving down Skull Valley heading out to a place you know to do some stuff and it was a straight road through the desert Nobody's ever on halfway through that there's one Farm one house and the speed limit drops to 40 I'm doing 100 and something there's a cop

pulls me over I'm like whatever I pay the ticket two years later the ticket makes it back to North Carolina I've got to go to Defensive Driving School or lose my license so I go to this defensive driving school and they have this chart on how angry you are this angry angry Driver thing you know have you lost a friend have you had trauma I literally checked every block on that sheet they gave it to I gave turned it in and most people have one checked two if you know if any I checked every one

of them there are you serious you know it's not the place to mess around I go they're all true every one of those are true I mean that's not why I'm doing 104 but every one of those are true and I kind of realized man I've had A lot of things happen to me when you don't really stack them all up when it's one at a time one at a time one at a time people over the years that that you keep losing to the point that they wanted to do a study they hit me

up a couple years ago wanted to do a study on combat losses and they wanted to include the suicides that were related to that combat event because they're spe if Ying these events and these trauma Events 30 years later right here we are 30 years later and why am I emotionally welling up all the time when I try to talk through this have I not worked through it enough I mean what is the reason yeah I think I've worked through it so much that I can talk about it I can get through it um but

as I said this is this is my last because everyone wants to hear it and every time I tell it it's just it just it traumatizes me again and Jen's always like you know You're going to you really want to do this because you really become an [ __ ] when you come home for a few days I'm like no no we'll work through it and every time I do it I get you know I don't notice it but I get more aggressive I get more tense and uptight and she knows now how to work

through that how to get me through that so it's good and helps me work through it but you know it's just reliving that trauma over and over Again is like living it over and over again yeah do you carry a lot of survival skills buil from from that up no you don't I don't think I did I don't think I ever felt that way I lost people I know that and that hurt but I don't feel like like I know a guy that was in a a vehicle that got you know IED he's the only

one that lived in that vehicle the only one that lived in out of all his Friends and his entire team that's Survivor skilt like why did I make it out of all of this to me I I I chocked it up to luck I threw out tactics when I saw the 15-year-old kid shoot somebody W you didn't go to school for that did you you didn't take tactics you just pulled the trigger in in a general direction and you know when you have bullet holes in your Clothes it's a lot of luck it's a lot

of luck so I just chocked it up to luck um and I did I didn't have Survivor skill is there anything that could have been done after that operation that could have improved your your mental state for the rest of your career talking about it getting everybody together to talk about it with a coach licensed clinical social worker whatever in the room to give you The reasons you feel that way it took me 20 years 23 years I've been really hard on this for seven I've been out 13 I played the game I'm okay for

three I think it's on average it takes an operator 13 years to even ask for help so I might have been ahead of the game at three but after 3 years I I lied about how hard I was doing it you know I was kind of plating I Think and then I started realizing and hearing these professionals tell me these simple lines about why I feel the way I feel and it just it clicks like why is that so easy cuz it's an outside source and someone who studied that so many people have told me

I don't want to see her shrink unless they've been to combat CU they won't understand me you know and I'm like well then I don't want you to see our shrinks unless you've been to school for four to 6 years because you won't understand them like what I go they're not taking you to combat they're helping you with your mental health they're helping you work through why you feel bad they're giving you the reasons that they know of and that they've learned and why your brain works the way it works not combat they don't need

to go to combat to know why your brain's Behaving this way you don't have to go to combat to have your brain act this way so it's not combat it's not the defining factor it's the trauma which can happen anywhere and Trauma can be dealt with the same way pretty much no matter what the trauma is the stories are different the trauma behaves the same in your body it's biological and when you've had that repetitive my switch is on my fight fight fight fight when you come home I Can't flight or freeze anymore I want

to fight so when I'm embarrassed I'm mad when I'm scared I'm mad when I'm ashamed I'm mad when things don't go the way I think they should go I'm mad and I I'm not mad I rage because I live at a five so when you make me mad I go to eight I'm almost maxed out already and I didn't know that I didn't realize I was at a five my you know all the time until a lot of therapy a lot of one Liners that made it easy and then Jen telling me it's not what

you say it's how you say it is there any specific on liners that really resonated with you just off the top of your head yeah yeah a recent one that smacked me right in the face with a frying pan was was talking to a new therapist a new one I think you know we we we have four or five of them I've talked to all of them before I've talked to other ones before before I found the good one that We we got that we still have as well um we call our unicorn or Miracle

Worker or the other ones are great as well and but this newer one here's the same story dishes in the sink things that make me mad why can't I just get the kid to do this why can't I get you know why does my wife never change the toilet paper roll how's this so hard why don't you hang your towels up why do your dirty clothes go on the floor when the basket's right here right my brain Thinks I'm going to die because something's out of place I don't realize that and I kept trying to

validate that but I'm just teaching I'm trying to teach the kids or the or my wife how to be put the clothes away it's lazy right I use the word lazy a lot you're just being lazy pick it up and put it here why do I have to do is it my job for six years every day banging my head against the wall pull her in hey you know cuz They're step kids right I don't want to go at the step kids Mama Bear will come out right and she told me with your aggression don't

ever talk to my kids don't ever talk to my kids in an aggressive way and so I talk to her I would remove myself every day poor Jen hey they left why are they leaving distancing how come they they stack the trash so high everything falls out do they not know to take the bag and put put a new one in I Mean what are they so lazy for why don't you do this and that and recently this doctor looks at me she goes that's your problem isn't it I was like what do you mean

that's my problem you're the one that's upset about all that no one else in your house is that's how they live this is how you want to live why are you imposing your will upon them and I went from trying to teach to I'm an [ __ ] like wow there's a way to Do these things you know not grabbing your spouse and telling her what to go say and if they're your own kids not grabbing your kids and telling them what to do it's how can I reach them or is it time to reach

them you know is it are they able to be hear as children what I'm saying you know it reminds me of uh that that movie where they they were breaking up and it was uh Jennifer an in and and uh I don't know she I just want You to want to do the dishes and he's like why would I want to do the dishes you know ever and I'm thinking I am a little bit weird I love doing dishes I love cleaning up [ __ ] I love things being perfect it's been since before the

military and it just dawned me the kids don't want to do that [ __ ] so they're not going to do that [ __ ] right and so I went through well punish them if they do this they'll be punished and they'll learn not to do that you know and I'll Take away what they love and it nothing worked until she said well isn't that your problem it is my problem I need to work on me again something I'd forgotten about that I always need to do and I tell other people no one can help

you you have to do it yourself they can tell you what to do how to do it but if you don't do it it doesn't work and I'd forgotten that trying to force them to clean pick up things they don't want to Do and I forgot that's mine that's my hangup I need to work on my hangup and if if if it it bothers me pick up the cup and put it in the dishwasher and shut up you know no big deal but I was making everything a big deal why do you think she's stuck

with you you think she understood what you were going through who my wife yeah your wife yeah she went through a lot herself growing up in her family um growing up as a Young adult outside of her family a rape an angry family um and then a marriage that she wasn't that she was into and she realized they weren't into her and that she wasn't into it it was maybe too soon and one of those uh and that trauma was attracted to this trauma and and she understood it she had so she not forgave it

but understood it she could work within It and I'm I'm very good-look so she had to stick around I like to add that cuz I hope that was part of it but just I've never met anybody as understanding as her when I first met her I thought she wanted something like more every day she was so nice I'm like what is it you're doing what's wrong what do you what do you want she like what bubbly I'm like uh you know I used to wake up and she'd bubbly bubbly wake up and just start talking

to me I'd roll over and just Growl you know like what what's what's what's so happy about the morning you know and I'm like what's not happy about the morning I just wanted to be angry and I and she just took me down the path of showing me who I was in a mirror something I'd never done before and I didn't like it I didn't like how I was behaving to people that you care about people I love people I'm supposed to Protect but I'm the monster so I can protect her from everybody but me

who lives with her the most and knows her every weakness and uses it against her yet I'm here to protect her so many go through that so many enter that shame cycle by saying something or physically doing something and I'm sorry isn't enough anymore and then the cycle starts of I'm No good I'm worthless I should just take my life you know this and that but Jen had that patience I don't think she had the knowledge of what to do she had the patience and the love of person who understood trauma and just stuck with

it she shouldn't have she shouldn't have but she did it's a hell of a wife yeah she's stuck with me now we'll get more into that towards the end of the Interview but um you'd already said it but I want to ask you if there's anything else because at some point somebody's going to do that again somebody's going to go through a similar experience they're not going to quit and they're going to keep operating just like you did and so what advice do you have for the next group of men that that happens to it's

advice I put out every day because it's happening right now it's happening to my Friends it's happening to the people that they know behind you know beyond them talk about it with your Bros whatever but go outside that use that therapy you know that you have at your organizations there's counselors at all of them you know they have all these fit programs now you know the workout coach The Counselor the the diet coach and nobody uses the counselor they want to work out get fit and eat right right this is part Of Being Fit Body

Mind Spirit right and if the mind is out other things are out and the mind is the most important part of your body I believe because it tells the rest of your body what to do and it's how you think and it controls everything so talk about it you know I would tell organizations to do mandatory mandatory coaching and counseling no matter what because no one going to admit it in those organizations so you have to make it mandatory you Have to make sexual harassment training mandatory right click buttons whatever makes you feel good in

the government you know don't tell Sally she looks good at work right they play that game but they don't play a game where let's say it used to be 22 a day they're trying to bump it down to 17 but if you know the facts it's you know it could be up to 40 to 48 a day of suicides the enemy can't touch us it's our inability to deal with our own Emotions that's causing us to lose so many good people because they've lost hope they don't feel like they belong in a world that they

really we need leadership in right we need calm steady leadership in this world and there isn't out there anymore you know it's in these Warriors who are being put down and looked at like animals it's like living inside the castle walls and spitting on the guards that's how it feels like a lot of People out there betay TR let down pull out of Afghanistan the assisted suicides of veterans you know that they're talking about now and different countries that they've enacted and the VA mistreatments you know people that you you don't hear many good stories

about the VA I try to build it up well it's a big organization it's got a lot of veterans to help man you're going to wait in line right there's Other Alternatives you know go out and try those but some are stuck with the VA you know but that anger that will build up they have to talk about it you know I think it should be mandatory when you come home for deployments to sit down you know maybe before you go home have a com have a talk maybe on the way back home have a

talk and then when you're home throughout the next weeks of Decompressing actually decompress and talk about anything that that had happened and pull it out of the guys because it would work chasing Fitness I can run all day my my beach muscles are huge I could give a [ __ ] I want someone mentally strong next to me fighting next to me and you're not mentally strong when you're struggling and you're hiding it with booze or or drugs or whatever it is your thing is you know because that's what you do you know and that's

what People start doing after 20 years of war I remember our first deployments were guys were all out in the bay getting their kit check check check ready to go fast forward three deployments guys are in their rooms you know drinking booze waiting to get on that plane for their number to be up it's a numberb game at a certain point to getting you know being drunk overseas to just trying to either feel or forget whatever it is whatever your Pleasure is of the day trying to feel or forget and and then they come back

and think I don't need help I'm good like I want a mentally strong Warrior next to me they'll be physically strong but I want them mentally strong and to do that you kind of need to know what's going on at home you kind of need to be invested in your people know what's going on at home so you can understand why they're behaving the way they're Behaving I think that's great advice man and uh I want to call a break but um I just want to say God bless your friends man your teammates I know

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again Iraq again what sticks out to you the most the mission Iraq going north of Baghdad nope south of Baghdad sorry the rat Line to a wedding party right because they always have guns at wedding parties plany assault um it was pretty far distance to have a qrf of tanks and Bradley's but I was going to roll them forward but I got overruled on that one like they'll stay here at the at the house and if you need them I'll send them and all right we probably won't need him anyway so screw it you know

um infield to this wedding party and now That I'm headquarters element what sticks out the most is I'm in charge of people now right I've gone from a kid to I have souls under my control now and I don't want to screw that up so I'm landing outside you know I got guys landing on the roofs of this building Rangers are surrounding us again and head headquarters element me and Medics and EOD guys and you know whoever else doesn't go in First Landing out here out in this Field and they took an RPG to the

helicopter immediately they were it was a training facility they had all these weapons laid out underneath blankets and everything as soon as we hit they flipped them open and started shooting it was like man here we go again right didn't hit me yet like here we go again that helicopter dropped everybody off on the roof limped over crashed about 200 met away hard Landing 200 meters away at the end of the field so That changed everything I had to send the Rangers over to secure that and check for any wounded so that took my out

of perimeter most of it and that that they stayed there the entire night there was gunfire happening and then a guy comes squirting off the target without a weapon running didn't see us I'm sitting with my nods watching this we're in a flat slick mud field that hasn't been planted yet so you can't even walk it's very slippery that Kind of stuff that six and sucks your shoes in and rips your shoes off when you're run into it so I'm like trying to move on this stuff quietly I'm like hey there's a dude coming you

know he's running right towards us I'm like got my weapon on him got my weapon on him you know he's like he's coming right for us and then he takes off running off to the left you know he doesn't even know we there and he didn't have a weapon so I didn't shoot him right and uh he ends up Digging around in the bush over here to my left in between the Target and he's off to left and I can't shoot him because the Rangers are behind him now so I'm like I'm going to creep

up on him I'm gonna deal with his cat so I can get on doing my business you know so me and the medic go creeping him up in the sky and he turns and sees us just takes off running towards Target I'm like I can't shoot him right wanted to but he wasn't Armed so instead of a squirter off a Target I get on the ra I'm screaming there's a squirter onto the target there's a squirter coming on the target I he what next thing you know I see lasers from the roof this dude flips

up a blanket reaches down and grabs a weapon he doesn't see the lasers I see all the lasers and everyone else in Target sees the lasers like literally it was like a a flower pedal of Raz lasers soon as he touch that weapon he was that Was it he didn't think anything else you know and I was like all right I'm coming on the Target now guys turn off those lasers so I brought everybody on the target there were squirters everywhere made my way inside send the commander to the roof um still dealing with stuff

and I'm starting to talk to the guys on target which is now that's kind of my job roll in control the whole thing and then talk to detainees and try to figure out if there's another Target I can go Hit right away before we head back I'm talking to one of them and I I hear this radio call hey I got a squirt and and then I hear this boom and I feel the explosion and and it was in a back room of the house I thought [ __ ] and I looked at that dude

I go you better hope none of my men are freaking injured or I'm going to make this a bad day for you you know and the tur's like I get a call on the radio hey uh It's uh stinky and K man they followed a dude into a room and soon as he turned around before you know before they could kill him he clacked it off so they were shooting him as he clacked it off he's like Kevin's really bad he's like pull me he like Kevin's really really bad and I remember looking at him

going I don't give a [ __ ] you know I can't give a [ __ ] I have like 40 other people I have to give a [ __ ] about you know let's pack him up and get him out of here you know So call in the Met back I did give a [ __ ] right but I I don't like to hear that stuff on the target mhm and that brought me that was a second thing that took me back to Somalia was in Somalia on one of the hits I shotgun a door

open with a slug then I went off and cleared the room and then uh my two he came in he goes hey you know you shot a woman I was like what he goes you know when you breach that door it went Through that door and through the next wall and it went into woman's leg and I'm like I'm okay I'm sorry you know he's like go in there and take care of her so I'm going to packaging her up bandage her up put her on stretcher me and me and friend are carrying her out

on xville going to put her on a Humvee and you know brought her back took care of her and everything she's probably the richest woman in Soma so that struck me you know as a similar as a similar thing and then the Hilo crashing and then that room getting blown up and then this guy standing and I want to do the metac right away but I can't cuz we're taking fire from everywhere I've lost all the Outer Perimeter Rangers so we're taking fire from different houses and I want to use the ac130 they they can

pick up all this [ __ ] and they're looking at it and They're telling me what's going on it's like okay I need accountability I got Rangers over there I've got team members squirting everywhere taking down all these hous is in this compound I got a guy blown up I need to bring a medac in and uh give me a head count all we're missing one dude missing one guy find out what team he was on find out who it was and I go where was he last scen go back that way find out who

He is I can't you know I can't suppress targets I know whereby he's at and I can't bring medac till I suppress targets Meanwhile my Commander's going hey they're calling me from The Jock they want to send a Hilo with the team on it to go after that squirter that's in a building three blocks away hell I don't know you know and I go tell them no and I took off running you know the and then the the fires guy comes over hey we' got a group of cars coming in to Our Target at high

rated speed I go take them out hey later hey we got a group of car cars leaving the area you know with guys in the back with guns I go take them out stop asking me how to do your damn job do your job Commander comes back to me hey they really want us to chase these squirts they go tell them no I got a lot going on still looking for a guy right I'm not going to send more people out I'm still looking for one guy so I can suppress fire they don't know What's

going on on the ground right they want they want [ __ ] done third time I make it to the roof to pass information to the boss he's like hey they really want you to send me yes because he was that was new for him that was his first hit with me because my other boss had gone home um so he was my new boss and even though I knew him I was his I was his instructor in OTC now he's my boss I go give me that radio he hand he took it from and

I took it from his Radio guy and I go negative I'm not sending anybody out for squirters I'm working I'm working the target here I'm working finding a missing man I got a down Hilo out I threw it back up I go that's how you do it you know and I took off went about to do my job and then finally somebody come back hey we found old boy we got him back okay suppress fire suppress Fire's now let me know when it's done where was he what's going on and and another thing that struck

me The backtrack sorry I'm on the roof after that bird went down I'm the one calling Blackhawk Down I had to make that call again I'm going to stuck there all night didn't bring extra water and I'm on the roof going I did it again man I did it again I let this happen and I was pissed at myself one I was thirsty we had our nods but I didn't have extra water had a Blackhawk Down had dudes missing finally got him back suppressing The fire and I go what what happened where was he was

he in the I mean what's going on how do you have one guy out on his own well he was out talking to a cow yeah I did that too I go what goes yeah he was out talking to C I go okay he goes on the Medevac bird with the with the injured when when we go out he's dehydrated right I figure he must be dehydrated he's acting weird Medevac finally got them back that's the first time I found out what a dark team Was cuz I'm like blow that helicopter in place and we're

out of here you know negative we're going to send in a dart team I go I get up back on the radio go what's a dart team a down fcra aircraft rescue team and I go that exists yeah we're going to send out some test pilots some parts that you need they're going to put it on the helicopter and then they'll fly it out of there and I go how long's that [ __ ] take you know like I'm under Fire I Already called for the qrf you didn't roll the qrf everything's kind of settled

but we've been here a long time now that doesn't you know take much for people to trickle in and figure out what's going on so we go through that process all night of fixing the helicopter you know and finally um they take off you know they're limping out of there and they take off I Right load everything up we load the hilos up and we left and there was a huge cachier of explosives in the in the garage that we left in the car that we found so anybody in the Target that wasn't bad stay

away from this house it's not going to be good for three days so we told them to stay away for like days we flew back found out that the helicopter had to make a hard Landing somewhere else and they worked through that on their own and picked back up and Limp to the rear I'm like thank goodness this is over then I went to the talk and watched them bomb that house you know and uh destroy that [ __ ] there then I started doing research on what happened to my guy that was talking to

a cow and how how's my other guy doing um he he ended up doing all right the guy that got blown up was fine the other guy thought it was he dehydrated I went down and was looking in his room asking his teammates like What's going on and there's there's ambient on the table there's ambient over here there's ambient over there you know and I'm like [ __ ] tonight we take ambient then we roll out on a hit and we forgot we take ambient and so we take more ambient we roll out on hits

and you on ambient talking to cows on a hit and it hit me that I'd failed cuz I should have been checking on on the guys and instead I wanted to be that cool leader that let them do Their own thing in their own room you know and I won't look and just you know be there when I need you versus really taking care of them you know and finding out what was going on down there so that ended that day got him cleaned up ended up doing all right the other guy like I said

end up being okay but that mission sticks out on top just because of the similarities of you know that that just went back and forth And took me back to Somalia you had mentioned a couple of times that you'd had flashbacks in combat back to Somalia but I don't believe you've ever had flashbacks from any other incidents how often did that happen smells take me right back that frequently um um I don't like bleach at my house too much when I hit it I'm like okay here comes the bleach um but smells take me back

and That's often other missions would take me back with similarities that would happen the fourth of the time maybe and it was more of a what can I do what has happened before and then then I started thinking of it I'm like all right shake that [ __ ] off get back you know learn the lessons not the emotions with it that took me back a lot and then the spouses always takes me back but I don't go back to Iraq Much to me Iraq was what I thought War would be I didn't do the

Wild West thing as much in Iraq when it went hard in the west you know by then I was the S major of the task force so I'm sitting in a bunker in bad you know hating life and watching kill TV like you know but I'm not going to be the S major that goes out on a hit with you every night cuz I want to relive my life and you hate me because I'm on a a hit with you like Happened with us you know we'd go on hits and adma mccraven or or general

mcris I want to go on a hit with you I'm like stay in the vehicle and I'd get a call hey craen wants to come over I'm like no he doesn't no he doesn't want to come over here you know you don't want to come over here man you don't want to see any you know you want plausible deniability whatever so I you know I hated it when like the command element that doesn't go out on targets goes on a Target just experience it I'm like you don't I don't need a dead general or a

dead Admiral in my hand you know I don't want that [ __ ] so I didn't go out with the guys I didn't want to you know and every now hey you want to go out with the guys you know I go no you can go someone's got to stay here and run this [ __ ] you know as much as I hate it I hate it less than they hate me showing up you know they got their team I get it and what what What year did you what year did you pull yourself from

that role from going on target probably 2005 or six okay probably 2005 or six because I started getting surgeries from getting messed up and I'd get that hey don't go back don't ever put a helmet on your head again and then four weeks later I'm running through fuia chasing a semi and my helmet on my head my neck started hurt I'm like oh Man am I screwing this up again I'm fine another surgery you know then finally fuse the neck then it moves the lower back I just I just kept doing the thing you know

that you shouldn't be doing just going back not listening to anybody but it wasn't I mean nothing was like Somalia nothing I think will ever be like that for me anyway obviously anymore but I never felt trapped I always had Military around in Iraq you know there was always a regular army unit you could call in tanks and Bradley man I never had those before I used to take them on every hit hey you got two tanks and two brades do whatever you want with okay come on the hit with us stay like 500 M

away or a couple hundred meters away 500 M away you'll roll in once we hit the target you know and you'll hit on each corner and you'll scare people and if I need you I got you and I got asked by Sir major why do you take them all the time we used to do hits without ISR and I go yeah now we have ISR and you gather in tail before you go on the hit and you realize it's not worth going in blind unless it's necessary why do I take tanks and Brads cuz you

told me I had them but you don't ever use them I go and the day I don't take them I'll need them it just sounds really stupid are you worried about wasting gas or something man I mean so government so it Was here's tanks and Brads but why are you using them uh y'all use everything you give me I you know I'll use it all every night if I could and uh to bring everybody home but it was uh Iraq as much as I expected it to be it was normal to me it was it

was the job that we did you know and you're done with it and you're back you get creative you got boarded so you get creative like I want to climb this three-story building this time and Attack from the top I'm like all right go ahead man we'll go in the bottom door you go up the top no need to but if you want to practice that TTP on a Target let's do it you know so then you end up working with the FBI and doing other things so you get to roll out and do different

other than combat things as they go searching for people trying to poison the water system and whatnot you're just kind of securing them into a building and like you got 20 minutes max Like 40 minutes later I just need a little more and like you're done you're out of here man we can't stay here that long um On Target you know they didn't get it they're showing up their black SUVs and we just intermingle with your convoy I'm like these guys don't understand they don't get it yeah I mean those guys didn't get it at

the time as they were there they could have been new you know day one but searching salt shakers and I'm like this is not an FBI Lab brother you got to get out of here if you want it all it's in a box you check it later you know you don't test it On Target that was interesting when you did get back from Somalia the next your next deployment was Bosnia correct yep either protecting generals well that's what I did was protecting generals so what how did that feel to go from that level of combat

in Mogadishu to to Bosnia where you're protecting Generals I think I looked at it like a not a sh job but an easy job like who's going to go after this guy right I mean he's surrounded by people all the time he's got Delta Force protecting him we're always planning the routes when we started we drove we drove the vehicles we pulled security it took double what we needed over there um cuz we didn't trust anybody do anything else when it slowed down we use the MPS from Germany to drive we train them up on

how we Wanted them to drive and yes you'll drive on the sidewalk Yes she'll run red lights and yes she'll push cars out of the way that's it you know you won't stop ever or we're going to pull you out and that's it for you they did pretty good you know and uh we just cut our numbers in half and just did the the the gun part and and a couple times I remember it's kind of funny doing these jobs you know you got other teams out doing pck stuff Cha chasing the war criminals um

and that was horrible to listen to a hit while you're pulling security for the general and he's on the in the talk he's like come on in with me you know and you're listening to them do a hit I remember him asking me after one hit he's like uh remember saying all right put the puppies back in the the box now until we need him again and I remember hearing him say that like like break glass in case of emergency kind of thing You know only bring the boys out for that and he turns and

looks at me he goes how is that to you to listen to your boys do a hit over the radio and I go it's a lot like listening to somebody else your wife you know that's that's my job to be out there and now I'm in here doing this for you yeah that's what it feels like but somebody's got to do it and it was one of those it's almost a relaxing job you got to hang out in Bosnia and find a bar that might be open Or grab some food at a restaurant that didn't

get blown up and then some funny things like um the deputy Secretary General of the UN you know lands and drive over with the general in the back who wants to meet him and he hey the deputy secretary needs to make a phone call you know and he jumps in I just Armor All the seats you know when you're the driver you take care of everything and I was driving that the main limo at the Time and he got in he kicks his loafers off and he gets in and just starts talking on the phone

I'm like oh these people are different I said you might want to buckle up sir I start driving and the general he knew he buckled up and I'm I'm whipping around cars you know and I'm I'm getting it and he's sliding into the general he's sliding into the door cuz he didn't put a seat belt on I just Armor All the seat he slides back into the Journal Phone he goes General's like hey Tom Secretary of general make a phone call you think you slow down and I looked in the mirror and I go Hey

sir how about you don't tell me how to do my job and I won't tell you to do yours and I went back to driving and I and it hit me like I just smarted off to like the man he goes did you hear that Tom just told me to f off I was like I didn't say that sir he laughed it off and I'm like all Right he got it you know he got it which was good most wouldn't get that yeah but bosne was good um we stayed in one house by the Olympic

tunnel we called it because of the Olympic symbols on the tunnel some of them ripped off and and uh neighbors were getting their lights shot out and window shot and sniper right I think a sniper and so me and my roommate sat up at the house and I was up you know I was downstairs by the door with my pistol waiting in a chair he was Upstairs watching out and then up creeps this dude with a rifle he's we're on little walk he's like now and open the door the dude takes off and I chasing

him through Bosnia with my pistol up the seill run I'm starting to run out of breath like who's this dude man finally catch him towards the end throw him to the ground and get him it's a damn kid with a be BB gun I almost shot him and I I went knocking door to door his parents were On vacation and like Spain or something and they left the kids at home in Bosnia in Saro and I almost shot the kid cuz he's just doing kid [ __ ] you know in a war zone that's even

probably worse than a war zone so I went knocking on neighbors doors and they were happy as [ __ ] to grab that kid and take him on the cops showed up you know and they were all happy because they were sick of their [ __ ] getting shot up with with his BB Gun you know and they end up calling his parents or whatever and became friends with the neighbors in but there was things that happened there that were just kind of fun we found some explosives underneath the bridge when the pope visited and

turned it into the pope team like I'm not touching that [ __ ] you know and they came and fixed it up and like it's happy but things like that would happen people would show up and you'd have to help escort them Around but was an easy job until you're needed right until you're need it then it's a [ __ ] job but that was kind of a a relaxing job for me we did that two or three uh rotations couple years yeah um guys going at different teams going in and out interm England teams

um and I think also we did the CT Olympics in '95 that year and I was on that team training up for that team made that team and uh Where you compete with all the other counter terrorist units around the world in Germany and uh made the team was rehearsing some stuff and jumped off a moving trailer to go shoot some targets and rolled my ankle I heard it snap I'm like I hop up I'm like I got it man I got it you know I got to make the team I end up going over

as a watcher I got pulled um it sucked man but it was it was fun to watch it was good to be there for it but uh it Was one of those hard breaking things you know I got a call I was in Jackson hille at a ski trip setting up a ski trip my team leader calls me it was a Friday I'm getting drunk right I'm in the hotel getting drunk it's a Friday he goes hey we're trying out for the CT Olympics on Monday you're coming coming I go what I get back Sunday

night yeah be here Monday morning with tryouts all right I finish getting drunk wake up Saturday night get drunk Sunday Morning get up we fly in late Sunday night and I get up and did the tryouts and made it I was like all right just CU he made me because he made me do it I'm glad he did it was a good experience though when did you start where did you go from you went to Pakistan in 2000 yeah that was a more of a house things going over over there like how do they receive

Americans and kind of what's going on and see how much um information you can gather and pass back And we landed in Islamabad um checked in with the embassy they wanted us to do some kind of surveys on their Embassy for I walked in I go first thing screwed up is you got palm trees you planted out in this soccer field yeah yeah ambor likes palm trees does he like to land helicopters when he needs them too cuz you can't land a helicopter anymore right you've taken up all your Hilo space for for Neo you

know so got them to cut all the Trees down which he loved and then kind of and it just recently burnt down they built a new one too so that was good hung out with the Brits in their Embassy for a bit I mean we really weren't doing much in his lamad it's like Washington DC all the buildings look great all the streets are wide for the parades and really nobody's there so we get in a car and drive to lore and Pasha or um to where the caddies and the golf you know have carry

AKs and [ __ ] this one of Those towns you're in I was like all right I don't know if I want to leave this hotel you know this is you know this is one of those towns where we're not really welcome and we didn't you know you don't realize you're ramping up to a war but um gather as much information as we could how the roads were how the people were um and I remember being in one of the hotels and it's like there's no bar here of course you're in a Muslim Country right

there's no bar here I'm looking around like oh no you can go to the seventh floor and if you show your passport you can get a drink I'm like oh oh I got you we go up there show our passports we're not muslim okay turns around he's got warm beers on the shelf and I'm like all right never mind it's not worth it but it was a interesting trip with those Jenga vehicles and people hanging off of them in the buses and and that's where you Learn where the biggest vehicle has a rideway even if

they're wrong and you're right you know you get run off the road by those buses all the time over there so it's kind of it's kind of a trick to drive a car over there by this point I think you go to Iraq in ' 03 correct so that was seven years yeah right when 911 kicked off they picked me to go set up the invasion of Afghanistan so I fly out to White Sand set up this whole training area the unit will fly in and they'll do these hits and practice desert Mobility which was

my dream job been on Mobility team the whole time didn't do Mobility [ __ ] I wanted to do mobility in the desert at War I was so excited went out to White Sands New Mexico landed I had my medic with me and and you know CCT guy or whatever to set up stuff open up my suitcase and there's a card in I'm like oh cool a card you know open it up Started reading it said don't send flowers don't call this is the second year you missed our anniversary I shut my card put it

away I was like looked at my medic I go I'm screwed man I'm really screwed finished that trip came home get the debrief and I told my S major like hey uh I kind of got this I need to go home and smooth things over and he's like you need to go be an instructor I go no no no no no no I need To go do Mobility but I need to go home and smooth this over first cuz now you're way past your time you've been a team leader way too long it's time to

go to to be an instructor when you come back you be a troop star major so right when 911 kicked off I went for two years to being an instructor I was freaking out I was freaking out right then my first introduction to Iraq was at the end of My time training our our shoot house was going on was under reconstruction so I was up at the FBI shoot house up up near quanico teaching up there and I was handing it over to the next guy taking it and I packed up flew to Iraq to

do like a leader Recon of what's going on when on a couple hits with another Squadron and then came back and then I would take my troop over next and so that was interesting just to go over for like a week run with another Squadron just to get your feet on the ground and see what's going on and listen to the leaders and then come back and then take your triop over was pretty good let's rewind cuz I was getting ready to ask you after Somalia how you received incoming Delta Dice and then you told

me now you're an instructor yeah there was a lot of blackhog down lessons everybody wanted to Learn and we were ready to impart them on everybody we wanted everyone to know and whenever somebody would you know you teach it and then it they do it at something anyway the way they've always been taught you know you have to pull them in and start talking about listen the reason you don't do this is this and this is what we found here and here and here and like oh okay you know got to get past that but

the way we would do it was like listen [ __ ] you know and Grab him over and so I think somebody told Jen at one point that I'd worked with for well worked for me for years was man I thought all those guys were you know bipolar [ __ ] you know from Somalia they were all just crazy idiots it's like oh yeah maybe we do talk a little harsh you know and you don't soften your Edge there anyway so whatever they got was what they were going to get the whole Time but I

heard that from other people from other unit members like yeah Tom's fair but he's an [ __ ] you know and that was my moniker I was proud of that yeah I'm fair for sure but I'm an [ __ ] yeah yeah I'll be an [ __ ] I don't care you know that's easy to accept and I realized no they're serious they meant it you know I took them on a hit in Iraq one time it was Christmas Day and I was bored and I'm like we hit it we hit a Target the night

Before and they had lied to us I could tell they I knew they lied to us we found it from one other person they had lied to us one person we took off the Target that they had lied about some things and it's now it's Christmas Day and we're just sting around taking the day off and I thought well the guys are probably bored aren't they pulled out the packet from right across the river from the house with the night before and I go all right get the team leaders in Here we got to hit

you know they come in I'm like I want to keep these guys busy so don't think about Christmas at home and y y y when I did the hit again came back Christmas day is over I think two years ago I was talking telling that story to some guys who were there like yeah oh man we just wanted to relax and chill I was like I thought y'all wanted to go be busy you know like no we'd been busy we just wanted to chill and I was like I'm was taking that Somalia thing like let's

keep going right let's keep going and I learned a lot there well later that uh you know I should have slowed it down a little bit even for even for those guys even for the guys in the unit not everybody wants to or has that trauma where you got to keep going all the time you know they haven't been exposed to like that much trauma so I look back now I'm like wow no wonder we seem kind of harsh and rough they didn't understand it they Hadn't seen that yet you know and then at some

point you start getting people that have been to war M with the Rangers and with SF and so they had already deployed and they come back they still join the unit and they just want to go do more you know I applaud those guys CU they saw what it was like they wanted to elevate it more you know or maybe they sat in a fob and hated it and wanted to do more so I got applaud you people that Joined the military during war I joined for cash when we weren't at War you know we

hadn't been at war in a long time that I knew of so I applaud everybody that signed up after 911 so you really had not seen you didn't see any combat in Pakistan correct you didn't see anything crazy in Bosnia now um I'm trying to think if they mortared much you know you'd see mortar rounds and trees you like I hope that didn't go off you could you could Have stepped on a land mine at some point if you got off a trail I mean they were everywhere it would take the general for a run

and there'd be landmines off right off the path and they're all marked and everything but I'm like can they just go off if they go bad you know it's like shouldn't we just remove them but they it was a Non-Stop operation there so the reason I'm asking is you had about seven years without combat yeah So were you worried how you would react when combat came back around did it did it did it did the previous trauma affect your mindset of going back to war when you knew it was coming I think I I I

know I thought at the time that I had Reed myself I wanted to vindicate myself um and I was ready to go back I wasn't afraid I was probably cocky and stupid and I knew it was in a different role that's what that that's what made Me afraid was is a different role instead of run around and breaking [ __ ] you know and I had stallion in in my command and you know I had to pull back on the reins and keep them from doing crazy stuff like I used to do it's like now

you're mom and dad you know you got to keep the kids in line and it was uh terrifying for me to lose one of them I didn't I didn't think or care about me right I mean that's an easy thing for me but any one of them it terrified me to No end to the point before I'd go out on every hit you know once I did radio checks and shut the door and locked it up and called all right roll I'd close my eyes and by before we got out the gate it was one

of those prayers to God let me make the right decisions let me bring all my men home by making the right decisions don't let me shoot the wrong people you know let this be a clean easy hit no bullets Fired I don't care but please help me bring everybody back and I'm like all right I'm done with god let's go you know and I roll out the gate and it was just back to straight not evil but evil thoughts of there's no goodness you know I thought there was no good in war so I had

to get rid of all the good what was the first what was the first engagement you had after Somalia the first real one there was a lot of smaller ones little hostage Rescue of an Iraqi here and there or go hit this target you know and you find a guy locked in a room from the outside with a gun tape to his hand like another criminal guy another gang member whatever wanted him dead so they would use US pass off information I'm like why is this locked on the outside you know what I mean why

who's in there that it's locked he's a prisoner you know and then guys went in and he's got a gun tape to his hand but they didn't shoot him and I Like cut the gun off like uh thank you you know I was like I don't know your deal but you're going to the Pokey right I'm done with you I don't know who you are but those things would happen but the one I remember the big one was Halloween night um I couldn't tell you what year it was we rolled out with the SAS and

there was a Target in I want to say ratti ratti or fua I want to say Ratti and we rolled up with a ra we rolled up into this ratti first from Baghdad or fuia anyway rolled up into one of those towns Radia fua talk to the regular army and that the whole day started with we got this hit blah blah blah okay bring in the team leaders let the team leaders plan the team leaders bring in their teams they plan and then they turn brief it to me and the boss and I was like

sounds good to me right you're not doing Anything tactically wrong my job is really just to make sure you don't do something stupid the boss is like well I think we need to change this or that blah blah blah and I'm like no you're not the one going in the door they're going in the door they're comfortable with a plan it's not it's tactically sound we approve it well I think now no stop sweet all right all right approved we drive out we link up with that um a regular army unit who's going To help

you know pull security Force cuz probably was ratti and we were going into fuia a little worried about fuia so we brought in a regular army unit with us we had their Bradley's as well we're rolling in with the SAS and I remember as we we're flying down the main road and then the guy's navigating and all a sudden he locks up his brakes you know like oh I missed a turn and he did he almost missed a turn so he locks up his brakes on his Humvee which caused The second one to crash in

him which causes us the third one to crash and the second one I went flying out land on the hood and guys are like ah hurt their backs and everything I'm like great we're in the middle of the street we just crashed into each other right it's like Keystone Cops you know anybody hurt no we're all good vehicles running yeah we're all good all right continue to Target man I hope they didn't hear any of this you know we roll up on a Target and while we were talking and briefing the regular army unit before

we left that's when my commander changed the plan on his own back to the one he wanted talking to the Colonel with a regular army unit on the hood of a Humvee being big guy you know we'll do this and that and this and that and I looked at the team leaders like that's not what we briefed I say it's nothing's going to get you killed it's not a good time to Like bring it up now you can either a do what you planned to do originally and I'll deal with it later or B do

this plan I said probably do this plan because that's what they all expect they agreed on I'm like okay good so we roll up and do that way what happened was we missed the inil information that I think the boss should be receiving that this is the target switch to or this is the target switch to this is a Target everybody missed that so the scas roll up in front of this target get out and walk to this target empty so they do the whole street this way we did the same thing we hit this

house do the whole street this way fought you know worked our way back and then the Brits work their way back and they're like hey mate we're going to go in one more gate before we load up like all right soon as they open the gate to that that house where their Vehicles were parked in front of rpk opens up from the front door Brit drops dead another Brit wounded they get drug out it just all Hill Breaks Loose that house was full of foreign fighters in Black pajamas like nobody's business they were on the

roof they had RPGs laid out they were in the house they had IEDs ready to roll probably fresh out of Syria just got their track suits passports taken away so they can never leave again handing their guns and Probably going to move them somewhere to go do a hit somewhere so we line up the Bradley's you know and the Brits loaded that dude up and took off back to ratti in their vehicle alone without telling us I called in a medac ends up Landing in middle of the street with fire you know coming this way

all right bring in the Brit there's Rd xfield I'm like where's the head count what's going on here get that Hilo Out of there was unneeded start tearing down the front wall with the Bradley just tearing down the front wall um fire toe missiles into the house you know trying to suppress all those guys the command called up hey we want to send some high Mars your way I'm like wait a minute what I'm across the street I got Brits across the street in the other direction you want to hit one house with rockets from

say I don't know somewhere in the middle of the desert Yeah man they're great no no I don't want rockets I don't trust Rockets you know so they kept tearing it up with the vehicles and toes and they brought in some hilos and shot it up now it's time to go in time to go in and clean it up that's my job boss stays on top calls higher I go in I work the target he's like hey baby earlier he was trying to call fire missions hey fire mission Baby Woo on the roof like having

a good time I'm Like this ain't a good time for me really and by the way that's fire sport guy why don't you do your job talk to hire let me do my job work the target I tell you what's going on you tell higher don't do fire missions time to go into the building he's like I'm gonna go in the building with the teams I go that's my job you stay on the roof you call up higher so I'm going in okay I'll stay on the roof and I'll Do your job so they go

in teams go in um they had to go up the next building climb on the roof and actually shoot the guys on the roof go get the guys inside to wake their way upstairs it's so destroyed trying to get up the broken stairwells you know and there's an old guy laying underneath they told me with a garage remote control with a red light going off pushing it trying to detonate but it had separated you know the blast they were piling out the back into Where the Brits were and the Brits were catching them or smoking

them whichever they needed to do and we emptied the whole house and finally cleaned everything up and headed back and we got back I walked in the door I walked in the talk and I looked at the Ser major and the commander I go can I talk to you guys for a minute yeah they came out onto the front porch of our house in Baghdad and I looked at him I said Listen it's him or me let leaving tonight I can't do this anymore he had done something else on an earlier mission where we were

catching little Saddam that the guy that was on you know behind Saddam as a security guy in the early stages of the war and that dude was in the house and there was a huge television I mean a huge TV they were playing Xbox on you know and we went and rolled him up I looked at it and I know The law of land Warfare right you can take an enemy stuff and use it for the war and I looked at that TV and I'm like that would look good in our talk man that thing's

huge I told one of the heavy breach go hey get that thing off the wall I'm going next door and see what's going on let me know when you got off the wall we'll figure out how to put it in the vehicle you know and he's like all right I go next door and everything's cleared Up cleaned up and I looked at the boss I go hey I got a nice TV on the way for the talk he goes huh you can't do that I go yeah you can you can't take money and use it

but you can take anything and use it on the battlefield or use it for battle no you can't leave it I'm like I'm taking it with me I already called hire and told him I was bringing it back he goes no no you have to leave it he had done that in Afghanistan with his other troop with the same troop before I Was there when they did a raid on a convoy they went by and they went down to check the vehicles and had sugar and coffee they've been out in the desert for like weeks

and weeks didn't made that so they started taking sugar coffee off the vehicle and he made them dump it all out and so I told the heavy breaches I go negative smash it if I can't have it they can't have it you know so smash it came out goes I had to smash that TV man I go I know I can't take it back so I got back I called him out and told him and boss like where's the TV I go mhm he wouldn't let me bring it back so after the flu incident I

said on on the front porch I goes him or me let's leaving tonight and the boss goes send him out that easy I was like [ __ ] I went in because we room together right and I went in there I laid down on my bed and I just stretching and I looked up I go oh hey the boss wants to see you on Front porch he goes you know what about I go he just said to send you out he didn't tell me why and I only guessed why right he didn't tell me why

I can only guess why he went on out he was out there for like 15 minutes he came back in I just started packing his bags he's like hey man I'm sorry no there's no reason to be sorry it's just you can't operate this Way I've been here a long time you haven't and you'll be gone in a shorter time even if you stayed here here and I'll still be here it's not a power thing it's a let the team leaders do their thing thing and you're getting too involved and that's how officers don't make

it here he went on to become a great you know Commander somewhere else just not there um that's when I got the new guy in and that's when the helicopter Happened you know South so those kind of rolled a little bit back to back yeah but the first one was was uh the the Halloween night yeah that all happened on Halloween with the Brits and so we kind of dubbed that one I forgot what we called it something to do with Halloween man crashing on the way in wrong Intel on the well right Intel we

didn't hear it just bad juju that night let's talk about Operation Red Dawn that was a good one you know the night before the night before we had a hit come up in Baghdad and it was like hey it's want us to saddam's Keepers and we've been chasing Saddam for a while let me back up let me back up to Thanksgiving proud of Thanksgiving I get called in by the SAR major in the talk and there's some guy in there in EN Clos with one of those scarfs on his neck you Can tell y you're

new to Iraq that's a cool scarf right so it's still cool to you and he's standing there he's like hey Tom this guy's a secret service from Texas he's one of President Bush's private security when he's at Texas is um the president has is going to dump his Security in DC he's going to go to Texas for Thanksgiving and then they're going to take a secret flight over here and I want your troop to pull protection at you know biop the Baghdad International airport it's like okay all right uh what do you want me to

do and so guy Tony who took his own life after that took me out show him everything he wanted to do then we brought the teams out or the team guys out and he's like hey uh what can I tell him what can I because he told me not to tell him it was the president till the last second so I devised this story that it was a Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders coming in to entertain the Troops and we got to protect them like hell yeah I'll do that right so they were motivated we went out

to the airport we practice our vehicle lineups and everything so we're out there Thanksgiving night you could hear the plane coming in and we're all waiting on the end of the runway and all a sudden you see Air Force One spiraling down and they all look over and I'm like all right I think now's a good time to tell you who's coming in it's not the Cheerleaders I know it's going to piss you off but it's the president United States he's going to come serve some food and talk to the boys they were pissed pissed

but then it and it picks up and they're like all right this is cool you know as soon as we're chasing Air Force One down the runway for no reason other than to catch up with it later you know and like why don't we just stay down this end of the runway we get out I mean We really didn't have much to do with it there was few Secret Service condalisa rice was there she's a little firecracker piled him in drove him over to the mess tent we followed him over surrounded and then I'm I'm

not his AIC but I'm close to him you know and we're backstage and he's going to go talk to the Troops someone's talking about and you know who loves you the most blah blah blah building him up because I don't think they knew he was there yet Because it was that surprise visit no one ever knew about and we're standing backstage and he's like all right hey you think you get Saddam did you get him yet like he didn't know and I looked at him I go well it'd be a good Christmas present wouldn't it

well yeah that be real nice you know I think I'll go talk to these boys now and he took off and when Secret Service leans over and he goes did you just promise the president of United States you'd have sedam by Christmas and I go I hope not said I hope I didn't do that I hope he didn't take it that way he goes you don't say anything to president unless it's a positive sentence I said okay okay good to know now you know so he rolls out we roll back and and then move on

a few more well about a month or so you know Baghdad that night get a get a hit coming in hey one of saddam's handlers We think is coming into town we think he's going to be at this house we think and then maybe we can find out where Saddam is and we had guys who were L Ando with you know other agencies down the street and I thought well they won't they'll want to be in on this so I'll go grab him bring him back um that was the next day never mind we roll

up plan to do the hit and as we're rolling in I see some guy walking down the street I just noticed you know black coat whatever Walking down the street and when another gate I thought okay I logged it in Gate color I don't know why went and hit the house really nothing there I'm like here we go again nothing nothing nothing we call it chasing Elvis right never catching Saddam then we started taking fire from like far away at the back side of the house and I thought why are they are they trying to

draw Us in why would you know why would someone shoot at us with Our armored vehicles from that far away so I said hey I sent a team down I said there was a guy went in the gate told him to call the gate it might have been Chris's team Chris was on that team I think poured down that street and I and I told the story before about they got in they went in they cleared the place and found him underneath the bed with a plastic AK almost killed him had they killed him we

wouldn't know where Saddam was right but they didn't so we Caught him but they he later I think somebody met him at the gate and te scared the [ __ ] out of him like they were trying to get in the gate and some guy opened the gate and he was standing right there and freaked him all out I took in and then everything else was the same after that but they pulled him back brought him to the Target like all right there mind let's roll on back I didn't even talk to that guy it

was just uneventful but we brought him back for Suspicious reasons cuz well he had the toy AK and he almost got smoked why would you have a toy AK and you know underneath a mattress in someone else's house took him back sent him to bad for the other guys to have have their way with him and I went to bed everybody I went to bed halfway through the day now you know hey hey hey we got a Saddam hit and I go yeah yeah when don't we have a Saddam hit I'm going to finish sleeping

no no no it's a good one get up want to Wake everybody up I go don't wake anybody up let me look at it first before you wake everybody up you know start looking at it planning it yeah he's pointing out this house in the crit this town the fish farm he's in a he's in a bunker and I'm like all right wake the team leaders up man maybe you know bring them in here woke them up everybody gets excited wake the teams up come up with a plan there's another troop you know up in

to crit our Area was Baghdad and South and flui all that they were to crit and up in that area so as we rolled in to link up with them and link up with the fourth ID they got to choose which Target they would hit cuz that was their area so they chose the fish farm the fish camp on the river I'm like okay we'll take the house in town because that's probably where he's at right roll in with a fourth ID they surround the town like it's a normal Patrol we roll in behind them

the other guys are rolling in the fish farm we blow the door open in this house and I go in there's like I don't know five or six little babies laying on the right in front of the door on the ground and I'm like jumping over babies and none of them they're all still asleep and then there's this 90-year-old guy com stumbling out put him down on the ground and then my boss comes in oh what's going on I go watch your babies You know I'm starting moving babies out of the way and this guy

comes I some old old old guy and one of the team members come back like fish in the freezer to the top and Saddam love fish and I was like oh oh so we started inter talking to this guy not interrogating talking to this guy and um finds out he cooks for Sadam he's his cook and he knows where he's at and he starts having a heart attack like they all do when you're going to roll them up right everyone has A heart attack or women start having babies like I don't care what you're doing

you're still going with me right and I'm on the on the radio going Hey listen I'm going to do a follow on Mission I'm going to tape or tie this cook to the front of the Pander he's going to point it out and we're going to go and they're like return to base like listen you don't get it I'm going to put him up he's going to point we're going to drive there we're going to get tsami Goes return to base I was so mad so mad I told the guys you know I probably cussed

him hey he's blowing in this whole thing we're going to ruin it blah blah blah roll back to the Palace that we were in when we started found my boss and I started to chew his ass cuz I was so mad and he goes shut up and come here I followed him into this room and it was one of those things where I open the door and I looked to the left I'm Like salt and pepper beard out to here with a leaf in it and just standing her handcuffed at a plastic table mic he

shuts the door and I go holy [ __ ] that's him he goes yeah I go it looks like dirty Uncle Fester right he apparently spoke a little English and knew who Fester was or just didn't like me and spit on me he spit on Saddam spit on you yeah Yeah what' you do I imagined myself knocking him out right but I looked at him I said it's okay okay you'll be dead soon and I just turned and walked out and my boss came out behind me and I go damn that was it I mean

that's it that's literally it I had this whole plan move him fly him put him on a aircraft carrier you know so no one can can get him everything changed he went on buop stayed in the house in middle of Biop with two tanks right outside of it you know and then went on trial but I remember driving back in the back of the vehicle everybody's asleep I got the S major with me and and he's talking to me he's just got a smile on his face pretty cool we caught him huh he goes no

I no longer have a retention problem cuz he knew guys were happy they finally caught somebody and I'm like oh yeah and then you get home you go to bed and the Next day someone's hey hey hey hey and you know it's not a Saddam hit but it's next and that's when it hits you and it doesn't matter does it we're all excited we caught Sadam hey we kill Bin Laden yay they were both removed from Power really not doing much by the time we got them all anyway so it's just next it just never

ends it just keeps going you're like so excited Saddam Saddam if we ever caught him blah blah blah and you catch him you're like that's just Another dude isn't it it's just another dude and this one's nasty and dirty and living in a hole you know living in a hole in the ground with a lot of money and a lot of cigars Invincible cigars I got a box of those at home they're probably dry rotted sitting out but that was an uneventful capture of a world leader that a world leader right but it's like here

comes next you know It never ends and then you kind of realize this is Relentless you know when I was interviewing Chris Van an we took a break and uh I have one of the original decks of cards you know in that cabinet I think he saw it and he still smokes you know he's we're out back I'm gonna talk to him about that we're out back having a chat and Um he had told me he goes you know we got damn near that entire deck of cards every night and uh he had said you

know people ask how many how many guys we got you know during our time over there and and uh I think he thought I could relate to him but I can't and uh he just he's like I don't even I have no idea how many guys we killed over there I couldn't tell you and uh that's a lot of work man I can remember you know then they Had The Blacklist you got the deck of cards and then you had the black list that nobody knew about you know and I remember chasing one on BL

54 Blacklist number 54 chasing him chasing him chasing him always got away always got away trying to find him how to find where he goes when he goes away finally devised an idea um he liked to frequent the ladies houses you know the red light district type thing in Baghdad even though they Don't believe in that kind of thing and so guy slipped up and put a tracker on his car and then forgot about it every day a helicopter pop up at the airport and see what was going on and go back down no no

signal another Squadron comes in we pack up we do the hand over all our stuff's in isus and we're ready to go home and all our guns are packed away helicopter does this big hey Beacon just popped out in the middle of the Desert a squadron starts firing up and I go no no no sir everybody unpacked the boxes for going after this [ __ ] right chased him for a long time I wasn't going to hand it off on the night of everybody's like yeah yeah yeah they pack up we load our vehicles we

drive out of town which was the first time I felt good in Iraq we drove out of town we started hitting the desert there's nothing we stopped to take a break Before rolled into the compound um and and hit it got out of the vehicle stretched my legs and it was fresh air and it was desert and it was beautiful it's not a light and sight and I thought this place could be all right without the people right it could be all right without the people in it or at least the the jerks in it

and I felt good you you know I feel like we're on our way home I'm going to do this last Hit and oh God don't let that be a bad decision you know so we rolled in like let's roll in hot like you mean it and we rolled in there was like eight nine dudes lined up we rolled them up captur them all not a shot fired eight or nine in a row and I had a picture of who it was and I acted like I knew what I was doing I'd go to the first

guy obviously wasn't him second guy I don't know man I don't really know right third guy I'm like getting closer I'm like oh you know Kam you know Kami Sirhan huh he like no no and I showed him the picture yes he just no no but he didn't point to anybody I go to the next guy no not him I go to the next guy oh oh yeah it's Kami H Kami sir hone he's like his head dropped and went got you he started to lean forward and headbutt me and try to not don't jump

on me his hands were cuffed I leaned back real quick and just gave him a quick kick and he went flying across the floor And I go that's the man you know there bels we took back but that was the one we finally caught him on the last day our rotation went back packed our stuff back up and flew home the next day with a smile on my face and we finally finished that one a little bit of closure let's say a quick break hey everybody I want to talk to you about two products from

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the scenes content from the actual sha Ryan Show on top of that basically what I do is I take a lot of the questions that I get from you guys or the patrons and then I turn them into videos so we get right now there's a lot of concern about self-defense Home Defense crimes on the rise all throughout the country actually all Throughout the world and so we talk about everything from how to prep your home how to clear your home how to get familiar with a firearm both Rifle and Pistol for beginners and advanced

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Elite or just go in the link in the description it'll take you right there and if you don't want to and you just want to continue to watch the show that's fine too I appreciate it either Way love you all let's get back to the show thank you all right Tom we're back from the break we're getting towards the end of your your career here you're in a leadership role and you stood up a new Squadron D Squadron yeah that was interesting um prior to that I moved from Troop Sant to combat support Squadron SAR

major so I had that for a bit you know combat what combat support okay combat support Squadron so it's the Squadron full of everybody that support for the um squadrons AC support guys the combat support guys so we have other support guys that do other things the combat support guys go to combat so I was in charge of that element um couple years and that's when I started going back and forth Iraq as the CSM you know letting our unit CSM get a break and just rotating back and forth um sitting in the chair for

him at times and you know months at a time and then going Back but so that was my time in Combat Sports Squad you know taking care of those cats who do their own thing that was easy and then they stood up everybody started doing a fourth of everything they supposed to give you quote unquote more time off more time at home which turned into more time to do more things around the world right so they're all complaining about it now no it didn't give us any more time so they did the Run who they

going To pick and they grabbed me like hey we want you to stand up the new Squadron all right I didn't really want to right I didn't really want to stand up a new Squadron right I wanted to stay in my Squadron forever you know you feel comfortable there and just move up like now we're going to start a new Squadron and uh you don't have an office you're all your men are in the other squadrons and you have any equipment so they converted the old Photo lab in the basement of our building and converted

it to my office you know and I had the commander who they were still picking at the time it actually started out as a John Brennan who's one of the senior leaders now in SF and then it rotated to John brag thank good the first names were the same and John bragas who's now in charge um Special Operations and so it rotated from one Who had to go to school who started to another one and it was we're down in the photo lab we finally found an opar major was kind of a guy that people

like I don't know if I want to work with that guy I'll work with that guy you know he's very detailed so we brought him down as opar major so now we got a group of three we're sitting there what do we need to order well we got to order everything everybody else has I guess so let's give it a snipers find out what They want get with the cters find out what they want get with the the drivers the the aircraft team the climbing team what equipment do we need to buy I don't know

right where do you get all this information um they purchased that stuff over years and years and years so I'm not in contact with any of my troops they're in their different squadrons you know they started building up a fourth troop in each Squadron over time by taking people around and then I Was in charge of those fourth troops which would eventually become D Squadron and so I'm out trying to design our new Wing cuz they're rebuilding they were redoing the unit anyway and the first Wing was going to go to C Squad and then

whatever b b and then and then D would get the last I'm like so I have to be in this photo lab for like six years man or something you know not attached to anybody nowhere to park equipment and they ended up giving the first Bay to D Squadron which was good but I was already gone and it was one of those design the bay how do we do the bay and make it new make it a new super Bay make it wi put an elevator in it who who didn't who thought of of an

elevator finally right to carry all the heavy [ __ ] up instead of cranking it up with a rope and a wiench so put a huge elevator in there made the upstairs better for training you know and storage and it was you know team rooms were a little bit Better and then all the other squadrons took shaped like that and we went out and trained and prepped and getting ready to go to war and everything and getting everybody trained up and I was over in Iraq um doing another icsm gig and the doc had called

down to to the Troops down in Baghdad said you guys didn't fill out this medical paperwork y y y you need to fill out the medical paperwork now so what do they do they call me hey the doc From the unit keeps calling us and they're bitching about medical paperwork and blah blah we don't have time for that so what do I do like fair but [ __ ] way I pick up the phone and call the doc hey Doc don't call these dudes anymore you want something call me they're not going to do paperwork

for you it's not crucial don't worry about it quit bothering them right they didn't like that didn't like that at all He quit bothering so maybe a month later I get a no I was actually back home I actually was back home they called me to the med shed and said hey uh your cholesterol was zero in January this is like March or April now you did a kind of a physical probably my over 50 physical or something I don't know what it was but your cholesterol is zero and I was like oh is that

good right low right it's real low like no it's it's not good um It's in indicative the doctor said it's indicative of steroid use I go is it now zero sounds like a pretty even number you know so I go and talk to the docs and the docs like well I don't there's no testosterone I mean your testosterone is low this and that have you bought any no have I done it before sure have I done it lately no what what have you taken so I start well I bought this on the internet I Bought

this on the internet you know cuz I'm working out I had like 10 surgeries I want to go back I want to be healthy I'm trying to get fit again bought it on the internet probably had nothing to do with it anyway but they grabbed that and ran with it and I got a call from brag one night saying hey I need to come over to your house I go what for you've never been here so I just need to come over and I Go oh well look man if you're just going to come over

and relieve me don't bother just say it don't put yourself through the embarrassing part of coming over and have to look me in the face no biggie I get it whatever I didn't care and I was done anyway right did I like it no but I was done anyway so it was one of those whatever you know I've been here way too long and uh so he ended up coming over and I remember he's like no no I'm coming over And I looked at my wife who you know ex now obviously go I need a

Xanax she goes what I need one of your Xanaxes man or something because I think he's coming over here to let me go you she go what four and I go I think this medical [ __ ] you know cuz I talked to the doc he's like well you took something and maybe that did it right I'm like I don't I don't know whatever if I'm wrong I'm wrong and you know I guess I'll go so he relieved me that night and then our SAR Major of the unit came back from a trip and he

found out about he's like you got fired by an officer and I go yeah kind of he goes that's not cool what happened I told him whole story and he went and started researching comeing to find out it was lab eror lab error serious lab error the rumors were flying I mean I heard all kinds of rumors I was already relieved I didn't lose rank I didn't lose Anything they said well hey all right where do you want to go now then sorry but we can't hire you back embarrassment the command I'm like what it's

embarrassing as what happened to me you know so I ended up taking another job that put me right in Iraq again working with smaller groups um and when I was over I got a call from the medic a doc who had just recently G me an MRI and he's like hey man your right shoulder is not even attached Anymore really so don't pick up a Ruck don't try to pick up a weapon anymore come back you need surgery immediately I'd just been there like a month and a half and I and rolling up this new

program so I went to the commander who called me in for a briefing after I'd been out in the field for like a week working with um some locals calls me back in to give a brief to a general you know just come on out come on out out all right so I come Flying back into the bad from where I was wanted the brief at a certain time I changed clothes I'm not dirty I got Scruff man this is taken me now 10 years okay so I got Scruff barely on my face I go

walking in I give the briefing to the general you know about who's working for us and what they're doing and it's going well blah blah all thanks and he leaves and that commander looks at me he's like why don't you shave I go are we there now are we there Now the operator Beard's gone and you need to worry about my stubble when I just came out of the field to brief somebody on what I'm doing I said by the way I got to go home my shoulder's falling off and I got to get a

SE back on so I'm heading out I turn around got on the next flight and flew home and I had surgery you know and then that that that lab a thing was one of those uh you know well That ended that job right mhm so I was I was in a sling for a long long time and they said what else what else can we put you in I'll just take CDD I'll be sir major CDD right the combat development directorate you know so all the guys that develop all the [ __ ] and talk

to the docs and and you know smart 100 pound head scientist and and invent stuff go I'll be down there I'll go down there and be the St major well we can't really put you back in a leadership Position because we took you of one so that was my last two years that uh General pyic wanted to reconnect with F so that's I I I said you know what I'll go do that that was my best two years I forgot what it was like to be on a team with people that worked together friendly um

not that we weren't friends at work you know but it was so competitive it was so individually competitive like you got to get one up got to get one up there's kids always Chasing your heels I mean that's everywhere but the competitiveness at that place is ridiculous it's just ridiculous and when I got to that team over there the training team and for two years of CQB and shooting and teaching these these new Green Berets and and working with the guys I was working with I really had to thank them for bringing me back to

that team feeling of togetherness and not you trying to take my job you trying To make me you know you're trying to be better and make me look bad it was refreshing two years um they helped me get over that you know what I admin betrayal is what I kind of call it which is one of the highest reasons you know people one of the highest reasons that people take their lives is admin betrayal it's just when you work so hard for somebody and then they throw you you know away or side because you they

no Longer need you but it was one of those things that I was open about I was honest about I bought some off the internet you know and they're like well that people take that when you're coming off steroids and I go it was a anti-estrogen I was trying to get you know I'm I'm making this [ __ ] up as I'm trying to heal like well we know you're trying to get better and understand it and everything and then end up being labir Anyway and they wouldn't take it back that was a hurtful thing

I mean I get it I don't get it but um and I kind of get it you know coming from an organization like that you can't embarrass those higher than you I guess and if they won't take a hit you know and keep going then why Try So that led me into those two years of of of a little bit of healing or it would been a lot worse when I left and then that just that kind of Sank me the way it all happened you know spend two years building that Squadron up and getting

ready to deploy to War and the day they let me go was a day they were heading off to do their last training event before they deployed oh man and in the bay I had to go tell them in the bay as they were loading up that um I've been relieved and they work out who the new SAR major is and you know in the current time it'll be this you guys have a good time and a good trip and Take care of yourselves you know they're like what the [ __ ] you know I

don't know I see you turn and left and uh went through that whole process of Iraq surgery and then last two years of range 37 which uh yeah takes me to the end of that 25 years you spent two years building that Squadron huh yeah what kind of culture did you want it to be you had mentioned early on in the interview that each Squadron has a culture SL personality of Its own I like the blend I like the chill but I like the the goget it attitude but not either or all the time because

either or of anything is too much all the time no matter what it is I liked it there were two calmer squadrons and then one really aggressive you know Squadron so I let them work out the SOP days like what are our Sops going to be for this Squadron and back and forth back and forth as I'm sitting up front I'm like Y'all figure it out I'll be in my office man I can't see her all day you know so they shook it out figured it out and in hearing now they're doing pretty amazing things

I mean I don't take credit for that but the culture the way they've integrated back into and they're kicking ass just like the other squadrons is pretty I'm pretty happy about that you know um being a plank holder whether they've ripped my name down or left it up I don't know I don't really Care but you know I cared then I really cared then and that led into a whole retirement fiasco for me you know I turned into hating everybody not trusting anybody um not doing a retirement ceremony like I'm not down no no I'll

just leave I don't care you know and one of the officers uh Chris Don CD who was the last American standing in Afghanistan when they boarded the planes he's like Tom man come back to se Squ he was SE Squad Commander at the time come back to your old SE Squad man we'll throw you one up and upstairs we'll throw your retirement party I'm like nah I don't want it cuz you got to man come on so I I relented decided to do it it was on a day they were doing a golf tournament somewhere

so waiting on the star major to show up come time to start I come walking in he comes walking in his golf equipment I already walked into The room and looked around normally you get a Legion of Merit you know you get all these Awards and [ __ ] when you leave and then thanks plaque I went and looked at the table no Legion of Merit no other award just the sixth Award of one of mine ribbons that you read that mean nothing I looked over for unit colors there were no unit colors there they

give them to people that are there for two years in good standing I've been there 20 years and they reflected on the Last two years of of my time there that they thought was wrong even though it wasn't wrong right it was it was proven to be wrong the whole time and I was I was Furious so I walked back out in the parking lot I'm like I'm not even going I'm not going to go you know it's go there's people showing up and I saw the Ser major walking in go hey yeah I got

to talk to you for a second yeah yeah what's up I go why is There no Legion of Merit and why was everything else downgraded I don't know what to tell you Tom I go what do you mean you don't know what to tell me go sounds about like you you don't want to tell me you just don't know what to tell people do you he's like well what do you think I'm going to go to bat for you to get these from the general I go yeah I expect you to go to bat for

me like I've been to bat for you you know since Somalia He's like yeah just wouldn't do it and I'm like but what did I do to not get that you know what I mean and so that whole retirement ceremony was just sickening to my stomach as I stood up there you know and my son pins on some shitty ribbon and that I've got five of already you know and and handed me some crap and I couldn't wait to get out of there and when I did my my wife had set up a surprise limo

ride out to Southern Pines and have a dinner with all my Close friends and halfway out at limo driver pull over said pull over man I got out and just start throwing up everybody's laughing are you drunk already I got had a drop I just sick to my stomach just just sickened that had gotten kicked out like that and I couldn't tell you why and uh ruin that ruin that retirement ceremony and then down the road years later and find out many people had that happened to him many people had it just a bad Experience

is leaving and I'm like I didn't know that like I didn't even know about you and why you left I'm like oh thank goodness cuz I heard all kinds of rumors and stories that none of were true you know people just making stuff up cuz I had no idea what had happened to me I didn't lose rank I didn't lose money I didn't lose anything you know I didn't lose the command sergeant major put down to SAR major I kept the command SAR major they couldn't do anything Because they didn't do anything but everybody wondered

why I wasn't in that Squadron anymore and why I didn't deploy like go ask somebody who knows man CU I don't you know was one of those that probably hit me hard you know and then that's when it was uh I think seven days later I was flying to Jordan because they didn't have a plan I didn't know what to do and somebody said hey I'm running ranges at codic man come On like what's it pay you know oh he told me the mount I went hell yeah packed up and flew to on Jordan spent

a year and a half there which you know ended my third marriage because here I go again you know I thought money would make it better but I was trying to feel that void trying to keep going yeah you know guys like to stay in The Fray as long as I can and I was trying to but I was tanking so fast that retirement the way I felt the last two years and and how it all ended up was uh sickening to me you know for a place I love so much and for people Giants

that I respected so much I'm sorry that happened to you man yeah me I appreciate that me too it happens more frequently than you think it doesn't surprise me and I said nothing could ends well or it never end right so you got to make it bad first yeah well Tom it's been a long day we You say we pick up tomorrow let's do it yeah get into civilian and transition and the other side of this whole thing yeah the better side all right take next on the Shawn Ryan Show what do you guys do

like what what's your mission set and he said to to free the oppressed he's like yeah we build Nations we go in and we help the oppressed we free them that's our job and I said nobody's ever put it that way to me you always hear fight for freedom But no no one had ever put it that way were the humanitarians going in trying to stop the bad guys to build the new so that the good guys in that Community can Thrive what point in time did you hit your lowest point my wedding [Music] night

hey everybody I'm Shawn Ryan click here to subscribe to the Sha Ryan Show YouTube channel for the hottest and most compelling interviews that you will not See anywhere else I've also made a playlist of all the previous SRS episodes so they're easy to find you can find that right here