The Data Scientist of Ayurveda Dr Aniruddha Joshi on Modernizing an Ancient Practice @NadiTarangini

The science is very personalized as opposite to what you just said that there are very standardized uh you know rules with respect to allopathy it is pseudo science in a way that it is not standardized but still we can bring in standardization in personalization and personalization in standard that is that is prec team in Western medicine as well now they are studying DNA and they are saying we are going to customize yes It's it's going in the same way the ancient white the the first ones chak and shushu they were the data scientist this is

my hard belief that they actually saw so many patients so many LS herbs and so on and then they came up with some set of rules which can be used which cannot be used they have realized that based on some cyclic nature there are days when some things are up some things are down in rainy season when there's winter and so on also when moon Is at some position moon is at some other position so that's why when I said the year there are so many nadis it's of that day also so that's why the

complexity is very high when I started working this particular field the entire Diagnostics or Madi parika as such was 2 hours out of the whole curriculum of 4 years wow and uh in third year or fourth year as part of your internship or when you actually go out of your college you actually go to some Guru and you learn Nar parisha from that Guru as part of Guru shisha barar for a man you measure the Nardi on the right hand for a woman you do it on the left hand tell us what's what's this left

right going on with the gender it is said that this is more like a you know K daa hand and this is more like a creative hand so that's why for male we say that we'll check on this that's some gender stereotyping to so that is how it is done but but all the vidas with whom I have worked they both check both the nadis because both the nadis have different set of information we Indians lack uh the product design skills we create good technology we create good Solutions but not the products that's a very

important advice for the audience if you are making a product go to good product designers I absolutely I I I completely um I thank him uh for giving me that particular advice because we wanted all to follow We put it into our Dharma we put it in our culture and we think that is more you know Sr D and so on but it's actually science and we have to look at it we have to open our you know eyes and look at it from the science point and I think it will help everyone so the

on that urea Point urea day basically I took that particular graph showed it to him just looking at the graph he said that it's a female pulse 25 30 age group she's having a chest pain she is having Chest pain because of gases ask her to do so and so okay just based on the graph by 2030 all hospitals will have if the if there are two flows one will be modern medicine one will be some other path that's going to be the future welcome to today's episode of 42 talks where you get an answer

to everything today we have with us Dr anir zosi the inventor of Nar tarangini now anud started his academics as a computer engineer and later on got a PhD in Computer science from I Bombay but that was during this thesis that a very personal event with his dad led him to discover the miracle of ayurveda through nadii examination his invention the Nadi tarangini is now bringing a lot of data to Nadi partions the evaluation of the pulse in the wrist and is demystifying the whole aspect of ayurveda diagnosis his startup has now been mentioned as

the national startup of the year in 2021 and his work has found a mention in the Monad by The Honorable prime minister Mr Modi his groundbreaking work on bringing statistical evidence to ayurveda is getting International recognition with even companies like unil and fmcg Giants working with him to identify what oils and lotions we should put on our body his work is also shaking our beliefs in our ancient knowledge in fasting on particular days and that our body actually sways to the rhythm of the lunar cycle we're very curious to Understand this aspect of ayurveda and

his own insights that are coming from the data please welcome Dr anuda zosi for today's 42 talks [Music] so welcome anuda uh we are very happy to have you on 42 talks I think uh you're doing something very exceptional and we are going to talk about the new age science that you are marrying with our old traditions uh I'm very curious to understand a lot more actually it's very Complex to describe what you are doing and where you have landed why you have landed your journey so far so I think uh at the very beginning

what do you do and what's your background that has led you to this point in uh life that will be the best question to start off with so please tell us uh a little bit about yourself what do you do and how did you endend up doing this okay thanks thanks pushkar thanks for inviting me to this your 42 talks I'm almost 42 so uh it's Relevant uh basically by um education I'm a computer engineer from from Mumbai University and I did my PhD from it Bombay in computer science and currently we are building the

personalized predictive health monitor based on aurad so a computer engineer creating a tech product in Aur has been my journey so far and I think that will be my journey for next 20 years also so uh while I was doing uh engineering uh my father was not well and uh we took many treatments And eventually we met uh an ayur aara narag um vaj ashb from P maruti here in Pune and he solved my dad's problem through Nar parisha and as Engineers we both myself my dad we got amazed what exactly happened you know and

that was the first trigger point mainly from my dad's point of view he's a chemical engineer he's he's a pushan scientist and his area is fluid dynamics so he thought that some fluid dynamics is happening here in this particular Tube which is artery and uh he asked me to solve that particular problem and I took that as a challenge uh as part of my PhD thesis I Sol this came up with a prototype and that's how the journey started okay that's super interesting like a fluid dynamics telling a computer engineer guy now we need to

some chemical engineer guy asking computer science engineer to solve Aur problem super uh but you make a very important point so let's go step by step I want to Come to your technology aspect why you chose to do this eventually uh in the Journey of your father's treatment uh you mentioned that a lot was not working and you ended up meeting the aura guy that seems like almost the case with most people people try everything yes then they say oh nothing's working or perhaps limited results now let's start doing alternative correct correct and probably uh

my my sense is that a lot of people also look at it like a pseudo Science yes uh now that you are so deep into aura that you have decided to bring technology to it did not those questions arrive to you that oh I'm working with pseudo science let me test it is it real science so how did your belief in ayurveda first start with and what is your general experience around how people pursue Aura let's start with that because you know Aura is going through a big revolution right now I believe yes yes uh

well it's a it's a the question Is small but the answer is going to be big yeah so um yeah it started more like a surprise uh to us that a manual Nar parika just using three fingertips on the same artery you are getting so much information about the entire body about mind about uh uh so many organ systems and so on uh I'll tell you in a very short uh think that my father actually was having some Tremor like situation and we thought it's a it's a mind related issue it's a It's obvious you

know guess and we did uh many um we went to multiple doctors and and so on and ultimately VRA said that this issue is not just mine but also your stomach is not clean which is uh which is not you know helping the medicines to solve your problem so he actually also gave the medicines for the stomach and so on and that's how uh eventually it worked so um you know that was like the first time we experienced aurad in our life and uh Then my dad asked me to as I told you to work

on this so I took this and we started working with multiple uh doctors including waj and while doing that I was uh you know interacting with them talking to them and what I realized what each viya each doctor has a different language they are not talking the same language similar to modern medicine so uh the language was different the way nadis felt it is different and of course the problems are different so so that is Why maybe that is the reason why this is not called as a science in today's language it's more as a

alternative science or pseudo science as what you said but now I'm this field for last 15 years and I'm looking at this purely from data point of view I'm not a Aur person I'm not a Homeopathy I'm not a modern medicine person I'm a data person my specialization in it was Data analysis or machine learning so from that point Of view when I look at into this and uh I'll come to the this journey again uh in while we are speaking but let me tell you that now uh in my company we have generated data

of more than 5 L patients so when I talk about that range of people and now the rules are coming out now the machine is learned and so on the data says it's not a pseudo science there are have finally you have some Modern evidence yes that that uh that something can come out of this so from Data point of view we are we are completely looking into this particular science and we are trying to solve this so let me say that this is my short answer but uh the experience I had with vaj during

my PhD years those were like transforming kind of years where um yes those experience are not explainable in today's you know kind of language of science but but now when I look at those experience again when I revisit them in today's when I have this much data I see That what he was talking was not something with respect to siddi or something to but it's not magical it is it is pure science and and so on so that's that's the journey that's the journey we are on so uh I mean Aura has been written for

centuries right like right from the beginning and there's a lot of 5,000 years they say yeah and there's a lot of debate yes so I'm pretty sure you've gone back in history for your research As well uh how has my limited understanding about how allopathy the Western medicine differs from all the traditional medicine Western medicine bases everything on randomized control trial statistical significance evidence and probably all the other medicine traditional medicines be Chinese yunani others they seem to have not showcased evidence in the modern context yes however I'm pretty sure people must have thought about

it Differently in the ancient times correct do you have any references how they bought evidence to this back in their own understanding uh well we are creating such evidence and I always say in any of my lectures or whenever I have conversations with the Vias also that the ancient viya the first ones maybe chak and shushu they were the data scientist this is my hard belief that they actually you know saw so many patients so many um plants herbs and so On and then they came up with some set of rules which can be used

which cannot be used and and and so on of course the science is very personalized as opposite to what you just said that there are very standardized you know rules with respect to allopathy Bine if this is the issue then and for for a it goes slightly Beyond why this fever has is it because of some viral uh effect or is it because Of some environmental effect or is it my own stress or what is the problem what is the root cause and so so that is how you know the solution happens having said that

um with this data we have started statistical significance on narip parika in ayur and we see that there are absolutely seasonal components uh what we call is circadian rhythm for which you know five six years ago a Japanese doctor got the Nobel Prize so in Aur There is a theory of prahar so every prar every day is divided into six parts and every prar defines who you are so we see that there are effects with respect to nari in different per for the same person every minute the nard is changing and so on and we

we see that even though it's very personalized there are there is a standardization possible which we are basically trying to prove so so yes it is pseudo science in a way that it is Not standardized but still uh we can we can bring in standardization in personalization and personalization in standard and that is that is team in Western medicine as well now they are studying DNA and they it's going in the same way so it is now going towards more to Patient Centric approach so what is uh so what we have been talking about that

since day one so now they have realized the power of it and and and that's why we are not Talking about modern medicine we are not talking about ayurve or other pathies what we are saying is a Integrative Health approach integrative medicine and that is what is going to be the future uh by 2030 all hospitals will have you know both if the if there are two flows one will be modern medicine one will be some other pathy that's going to be the future so uh let's get to the real topic now what is the

nadii you are saying that three points on our wrist tells you The entire story of yes it's much deeper than that I believe abely please demystify this whole nadii thing and tell us uh the aura concept of nadii and then we'll of course come back to the technology part excellent so uh so my journey started when you know felt my dad's n for the first time using three fingertips so we realize that there are three pressure points that three pickup points which are basically telling a lot of information about the body so when I Read

about it basically it talks about there's something called wat p and kaffer okay three pressure points at these three locations so the first location V typically I'll I'll I'll talk very broadly um is about movements so uh my hand is moving my respiration is moving my blood is moving my thoughts are moving so any movement related information is felt under the first fingertip the second fingertip is called P location so PA is typically all types Of energies so my jarag which is my digestive fire my mind energy all other energies which are throughout my body

and third is about structures kaffer kuffer Nardi so structures is how I look lubrication everything so more like input output transformation storage something is going out and so on so any whether it's a physiological psychological whether it's computer system whether the N machine which have um created any system in nature is Something with respect to input output some transformation is happening and ultimately there is some storage so so so that's why the rules which are set here are applicable to any system across the world so nadii is Rhythm the whole nature is rhythmic so is

my body so is Earth and and and so on so so so that's why pah so what we say is is is like that once we know these rules I can solve earthquake I can Sol some you know for example vaj had uh told us about the Tsunami 2 days ago which you know the best sensors were not able to uh capture so we had told us not exactly that this location and so but he said that the colors in the sky are different that rhythm is different the the the flow of air is different

and so on so there is something a rhythmic which is happening a big natural issue is coming up whether that's earthquake or tsunami that's that he could not tell off but anyway going back so there are three things which are Moving here under three fingertips uh if I talk about fluid Dy from from that my there is a tube there is water inside it which is Flowing it has its own flate it has its own viscosity some ingredients and so on uh from Top I'm applying some pressure uh if I press this particular point there

is a bone below this particular tube if I uh press this particular point there is a space below the tube below the artery and if I press This particular fingertip there is a muscle below this particular distinctly know where you're putting your fingers yes so so same pressure is from up there is same flow inside the tube but the the pressure points from below are different so depending upon your bone structure the space muscle strength and all the fluid is not moving in the in the same way but it has its own you know Dynamics

and which are creating different pressure variations at this particular This makes it's so easy to understand now otherwise I mean it's mystery so the hemodynamics that you describe from a very physical standpoint that there's a tube water and the below Ling artifacts are actually giving the three pulses that helps you to understand very very well otherwise for a lay man it's like correct correct so yeah so I was uh I was mentioning about three points right right so when you uh as a common man you just understand okay my nadis is Available and okay I'm

alive that's all you also ask me question whether I can do my own Nadi parisha or not so I'm I'm basically answering that question so if I slightly feel that with more concentration I can feel couple of things tu tu tu tu because it's after all it's a manifestation of heart but VRA used to say that this is not a heart signal this is a man right so mind is basically what is found here in the pulse is what he used To say of of course right now the whole analysis the whole statistical analysis we

are doing we're doing with respect to heart because mind is slightly you know it will come uh in some time not not now because we have to prove a lot of things from The Proven uh terminology when a good viya feels that with uh fingertips they feel it at multiple locations on one fingertip it's more like 3D 3x3 Matrix 5x5 Matrix 2x2 Matrix and so on so using three fingertips you have either 27 points or eight points or depending upon who is looking into it and and so and then it is like finger on that

it's a 3D 3x3 so and so on on one fingertips second and third and so you go deeper and deeper what exactly is is happening where secondly what I just described is more like XY that is also deeper you go deeper in the pulse like you press more And more and you get yet another set of information because now the Dynamics is changing again again the the pressure points are same From Below but more pressure is applied so I'm basically restricting the flow of the water inside the tube and which is creating more so depending

on the viscosity or flow rate or or the muscular um all properties or space properties and so on which at that time we called as wpit cuff or samadi Sadi Kadi tadi so if it is like you know hitting like with a sharp Weapon It's a TI and so on so that is how it was told in in ancient literature but this is how so as a common man yes you can realize that you are alive the best you can realize for example when you wake up in the morning you you feel with concentration and

you'll realize that your nard is touching here on this side of the pulse okay and when you go to the bathroom um you come out of the bathroom And you again feel it you'll realize that the same pulse is now touching at this section of your nadii so there are various nadis there is something called up Nadi which is you know downward energy it is it is pushing something down so that is what we want to do early in the morning morning that we go to the bathroom we push everything down it goes away when

you come come out of the bathroom you're Upon A Wu you're upon energy is gone so that point does not You know feel the energy but the other one which is more like some other energy I I'll not go into deeper but such realizations you can do but from Diagnostics point of view I think uh it's too much knowledge it's too many points it's uh you know that a common man may not be able to do narip parisha but on uh but still uh I'll advise that you should read ayur you should read narisha you

should know what is happening in general but if there is Some issue you should go to the doctor how many naris are described in Aura like aan and all the other things that you're saying so they say 10,000s of wow so it's a it's a big combination of so many things so there is three doas uh 15 subd uh 20 gas SA datus and so on so there there's so much bifurcation so if you do 3 into 5 into 7 into 20 into and so on it's a it's a wide range it's a long range

and it's a combination of It's a combination of this five Factorial so that's how it actually makes peration so that's that's only n then it comes age group then it comes whether it's male female then whether you are in Pune or Mumbai or some Hill area then comes what is the rutu around you then it becomes what time of the days so every time of the day every every season every location every stress C has a its own which is creating you know environment around you and and that's why you know you are a different

Person you are a different person in family you are a different person in your friends you are different person in your in your office absolutely so so that's what is happening morning afternoon evening or wasan shishir and and so on so so basically and you have to look that particular ular Nar from you know where you are why you are there and so on so it's a it's a so that's why it's 10,000s of Nar it's not that it's a type of nari In why where how all those questions if you if you multiple it's

a it's a it's a huge complex problem to solve so anud there's a very pressing question that comes to my mind uh I used to work for a Healthcare Training company where we used to uh design devices to train healthcare workers acquire skills because a skilled Heth healthcare worker will do wonders yes now you're telling me on the finger trip I have a 27o matrix how does somebody train for this Is there a training description in the literatures and I believe people had powers which were lost let's work on that hypothesis do you think the

modern courses of ayurveda are able to train for this because I don't feel my fingertip is sensitive for 27 points so how do I train for that uh so when I did my engineering I learned Pascal as part of my curriculum I came out of my engineering and the first project I I did as part of my PhD And all was in mat lab and C so uh similar to that even in medicine or in Aur what is taught and what you have to do sometimes there is a uh there's a gap uh the current

Board of ncsm is working very hard on it and uh when I started working this particular field the entire Diagnostics or Nar paria as such was 2 hours out of the whole curriculum of four years that is how it was and uh in third year or fourth year as part of your internship or when you actually go Out of your college you actually go to some Guru and and you learn nadii parika from that Guru as part of Guru shisha barar so that is how it so if that Guru has a typical methodology of how

to check the nadii how to press where to put the and so on then basically the student gets trained in that Guru shisha parara and and that's why there are different Guru shisha paramaras across India and they have different languages so first of all there is no one method Okay secondly let me tell you uh very specifically I have not learned narisha so while I was doing uh my PhD and postd on this particular machine and we were discussing with VRA and we realized the very same problem that uh the B srti he was vaj

B so B srti is different from nanal from lanar I'm talking about pun so these are different so if I learn one particular method of Nar paria maybe I'll get biased to that method and maybe I will create a technology for that method so so that's why with discussions we realize that I should never learn n pad that's the cautious dis you know discussion and decision that we took and so that's why it's now very easy for me to talk to you as a viya him as a viya her as a viya because I'm very

open-minded and for me it's a it's a Time series data it's a Time series data coming out of the sensor and she's giving her domain expertise you are Giving domen experties and so on so that is how I whether you as a common man can you learn Nar parisha was your question of course you can do that absolutely because this is not I mean based on all these 15 17 years which I have sent this is not a medical of course it's a medical knowledge but it's not a knowledge for which you you know you

have to do some specific BMS course and all you can always go to any Guru who is teaching nari and that I want to learn Nar by for my own profession for example you are a product designer you are you are creating a medical device for a particular company for which you want to understand when your brain works the best okay you want to test you want you want that particular information based on who you are how you appear and so on we will we'll we'll ask you a few questions and we'll we'll understand your

Constitution something called prti In a okay okay but there is a possibility that you are best at your best in the morning and and you may not be in the afternoon evenings and on but to realize that maybe you use NAD parisha for that for which you want to learn NAD parisha and not for Diagnostics so for that reason you can always go to a viya you can always go to a nari guru and learn Nadi bisha uh very recently as I said the ncsm board which defines the curriculum Of ayura has taken very drastic

changes very Progressive changes that they have insert Ed uh Technology based Nar parika courses for for all the colleges across India okay and we happen to be one of such products called nari tarangini and I have created a nadii course very basic to start with which has eight lectures so I have just launched that particular website called samit chakra so it has a pre-recorded eight lectures from eight Best of best Nadi vidas and they have taught about what is nari in nature what is nari in your body then what is wpit some some terminologies what

are gas whatever and if you you happen to re uh listen to that lecture you'll get all your homework okay that lecture series does not teach you actual Nara because this is a very different experience for you know you have to you have to of course go to some w we are also going to start Our own uh you know in-house sessions and so on but there are total six lakh Aura doctors across India and I'm sure thousands of them definitely know nari parika so you have to find out that particular doctor and you can

learn from them so you're saying out of six lakhs practicing ayurva doctors it's in thousands who are good few thousands only who can who can actually do Nadi parika it looks like a difficult skill to acquire but at the same time you Mentioned that it's more than that with your gender your environment all of that and one thing that I particularly picked up was that you always measure the for a man you measure the Nardi on the right hand for a woman you do it on the left hand tell us what's what's this left right

going on with the gender well it's it's very personalized every doctor has his or her own set of rules uh the way we have right brain left brain that kind of terminology said it is said that this Is more like a you know K daa hand and this is more like a um creative hand in broader sense if I if I want to say so that's why for male we say that we'll check on this that's some gender stereotyping to so that is how it is done but but uh the all the vidas with whom

I have worked they both check both the nadis they check both the because both the nades have different set of information okay and our device when we check using sensors we receive a Completely two different sets of graphs on on our server and so so so even though the heart is same the information received on this particular RIS and the information received on this particular R completely different in fact in one of our experiments uh we took a nardy of a paralysis person okay the person who had a complete you know inactive this particular section

but nadii was moving so his right nadii of the inactive body Part was better than the Active Body and so on so different experience and so on so um yeah so typically the different research studies when we Implement with respect to typical Proto protocol driven medical clinical validation kind of setup in which we have limited time where you know we can take only one n of a person in that in that particular sense in that protoc protocol we say that okay for males take a right hand for female left Hand but when when we have

enough time in that study both it's a it's a good idea to take both the naris because it's better to know everything about me through both my hands was the fact that only a few thousands of the six lak medical practitioners would know how to do a nard was that the Genesis for you saying let me democratize this not like that uh it's see in the ancient days it was taught more like a guru shisha parara you have to go to a guru to learn And the first thing they will teach is nadisha because there

is something called ashisha Eightfold diagnostic system so there is pulse there is tongue there is eyes there is whole akti the whole how the body looks tools urine and so on so there are eight things and they will start with that when a typical curriculum was Set uh in you know modern sense um different you know we have objections against different education um systems and so so similarly in this System the typical diagnostic you know that particular chapter got a little less weightage is what I I think this is my limited knowledge and that's why

you know there are six lakh doctors who have completed their BMS course but who did not do let's say um internship or who did not go to gurus to learn something more they never learned nadisha so that's why they don't know it's not that they cannot do that it's just that they never did Nisha the question actually is That when you said after your education you starting your career and you said I have entrepreneurial dreams let me make make a Nardi tarangini machine that will help people uh analyze nadis what is your conviction where is

it coming from why did you choose that as a business idea where did you see the opportunity that was the main question over there okay okay I all right so uh first of all I'm not an entrepreneur by birth let me put it that way so there is something Called prti and vikti kind of terminologies in Aur who you are and who you are today so I'm I call myself as a research preneur so I'm a researcher first and turned into so I told you about my I days uh when I actually submitted my thesis

the first internal uh reaction was this mean not get accepted I had a patent I had eight journal and Conference papers but because it was based on aurad which is not a science in from I Bombay Perspective this is a non-scientific work that was you know the preliminary I guess but eventually it got accepted not just accepted but I received almost 1.25 CR Grand from the government to convert my thesis into a protot tell so that work all happened at NCL uh thankfully my co-guide at that time asked me not to accept any job offer

and continued this work and uh thankfully I accepted that particular advice uh by him and the work started so the work started at u ncil Under the guidance of Dr BD karney and we saw this problem so we installed at 20 hospitals collected a lot of data and I was enjoying that again lot of papers lot of students um and so on and I was offered a scientist post the interviews were going on and in one of the conferences uh I got introduced to Anand Deshpande of persistance systems and when he saw this work and

you know he advised me thoroughly that I should come out of the academics and start my own Journey of andrene and and basically take this to the world so uh it was a big battle at home because uh the whole my family has been into academics whether it's my father both brothers everyone into academics and I took this advice of you know starting my own company so yeah so because of Anan I started the company he helped me in my initial days and uh and then in that um validation phase of three years at NCL

uh I worked with 20 hospitals basically Hardcore hospitals which are out of which few of them were allopathy hospitals and few of them were ayura Hospital ayura clinics small ayura Chara and so on and the experience was phenomenal I saw the need uh of the patients that they are coming to Aur for a reason but they are not getting something in hand basically they are getting cured they're getting what they actually want but they are not fully satisfied similar to you know know Because today's patient is very informed patient they want something medicine know typical

questions of patient which was a need which I saw and that's how you know that's how the anene journey started started working slowly with respect to learning nadii then realized I should not learn nadii and and that is how the the whole journey do that when uh by doing right you don't know that before you start absolutely you want to talk Something about like what's the machine that you have buil absolutely so I just showed that it is done using three fingertips so um so that's the machine n it's a tabletop unit similar to how

a typical BP machine or a small ECG machine look will look like the story behind this design is very interesting uh I was presenting in one of the conference in kuur and uh I happened to meet Padma vibhushan scientist doctor um cardiologist or surgeon I I forgot but Dr vatan and who had started working in ayur as a as a you know as a surgeon he started and I I showed him that this is of it was not this but some earlier machine that I'm creating a NY machine so the only advice he gave me

that please go to the best product designer we Indians lack uh the product design skills we create good technology we create good Solutions but not the products yeah that's the advice that's a very important advice for the audience If you making a product go to good product designers I can I absolutely I I completely um I thank him uh for giving my uh giving that particular advice and then I went to one of the best designers uh Satish golle of design directions and the the the journey started with you know um reaching out to various

wias how do they do n par and so how the machine should look so what we realized that different doctors have different methodologies some do while sitting some Do that they ask patients to sleep and then they do Nara some say uh check like this so that it's on the Same Heart level some do like this some do with hands open some do with hands close Hands there are so many methods But ultimately what we did was the way Vias will feel using three fingertips now we have uh three pressure sensors inside this uh each

pressure sensor is of the sensitivity of this particular fingertip and uh again this fingertip sensitivity Is different from this again from this it's usually 1 is to half is to 1/4 typically okay if you if you can feel yourself you will realize that that this is most sensitive finger but we we we have chosen the most sensitive sensor and which is this finger and um so you're basically simulating the three fingers absolutely so now as a practitioner as a doctor I wear this so that now these three become my three digital fingers the patient will

keep The hand on this particular uh you're giving a posture like this yes so so all data all five La data we have received so far is collected in the same way more like a standardization way so first level standardization is how we are collecting data we also defined the angle at which you know the rest will open up so that the Nardi gets opened up and and we are collecting the data so Nardi gets opened up and now we are keeping the sensors on that particular Patient so so let's assume that I have and

then the doctor will check the pulse like this okay and there's a graphical output that is a graphical so uh you can realize that similar to um a typical ECG system or uh you know MRI graph where you know there is a sensor there is a whole data acquisition system system and then there is a visualization in the similar way this particular machine is connected to either your laptop or your mobile through Bluetooth or through USB Cable and you realize that there will be three graphs three running graphs for wpit C so now we have

three sensors for three positions so you you see three graphs you collect that data for about a minute and the data is sent to our centralized server where our machine learning algorithms run and you get a report card so it's a typical Wellness slmed system in which a physiological signals is picked up more like a pressure or palpitation signal it is Visualized and then there is a report card so that report card is helpful for doctors to talk to the patient I'm very curious to hear about your fak data points that is fak data points

yes but before I go there when there is a big change we often see this in medical device Innovation you change and you're met with so much resistance so before I get to the data points because you have collected so many of these did you meet any resistance from traditional Practitioners about this and how could you get over and get them convin absolutely because uh we have been doing Nar parika for last 5,000 years in a particular way and now we are coming up with you know different ways the way when uh in talking about

India when Flipkart came with online book selling system people realize no we have to go go to libraries we have to go to big book stores there only we can so that is how you know uh how it was our system or Taxi service we have to you know stop the taxi and then and now we have a taxi system online taxi system and so so similar to that there is a adoption um I mean there there will be a resistance to a new system uh secondly uh the main resistance point was uh this is

a Nar parika is a personalized art we have to accept it first of all and now I'm bringing in some kind of kind of standardization into it so so you know um so there is some resistance with Respect to that but when doctors started using this uh they realize that this particular machine is completely mimicking the way they do manual n parisha it's not that the machine is doing Nar parisha on its own but the doctor is wearing the sensors they are doing the Nar parisha they can press as much as want they can put

the sensors where they want to and and so on so then you know the resistance started slightly slowing down and when uh I had I think About one lakh data we had published our first set of different types of papers based on the collected data that how nard is different in January how it is different in June how it is different in the afternoon session how it is moving with respect to lunar cycle and so on and then they realize that this particular machine or this particular data is not not against them but it's actually

helping them proving Aur in in today's language one second it it's use It's actually useful as a marketing tool in their business so when uh you know this started more like U uh you know mount to mount publicity kind of thing now the resistance value has slowed down but yes first five six years tremendous resistance but thanks to my family thanks to my all my viya gurus mentors and so on I stayed I showed some kind of perseverance to be in this field and now we are doing good so I'm pretty sure you got some

Ridiculing comments or you you might have been met with aha surprises any particular particular uh font memories of those early days when you were showing the Machine For the First Time H yeah absolutely I mean uh I never got ridiculed as such but there was I mean then I don't want this was a typical response but thankfully in my initial days most of my time I spent with vajat who actually solved my dad's problem and experiences with them is actually you Know changed the way I look into this particular field or in general and so

on right so it started with you know typical I go to vajas clinic he has a lot of patients I take their Nardi I I see their graphs then we discuss that he realized so and so into his nardy and this particular graph has so and so pattern and and and so on for example in Aur it is something called sarati manduka GTI H whether a is moving like yeah moving like a snake is it Jumping like a frog is it is it you know swinging interesting so there are thousands of you know uh gitis

or movements of animals so that is how you know in Guru shisha parara the the students used to realize that the snake moves like this a hungry snake moves like this uh and so on and that is what they will basically try to feel on their pulse that's another reason why you know now I don't see a Ser I don't snake then how I I will realize this another uh Issue in you know what we said earlier that maybe that's another reason why there are less number of vas who can actually do Nar that's another

possible reason but again through visualization in our Sam chakra course we are actually showing that this is a snake Nadi and so this is a wat Nadi and so on but on a different F interestingly in initial days vaj gave me a different set of experiences so one I just told you about you know the Paralysis that we actually went to a paralysis patient and as as a common person's thought process I took the Nadi of a of the hand which is active hand Active Body he said that take off the inactive hand and you

realize more who that particular person is and that was one of the experiences another very frightening experience I had was uh one fine afternoon I was in his clinic and and one small girl came to the clinic and uh V has told me today is a day all Right so she was a slow learner um not Manda but slow learner she was a normal person but very slow learn and she came up with her a and uh Vash took his pulse her pulse gave her medicine everything was done and then he took her to me

to a table where you know I was I was checking the pulse from the digital Nar pra point of view then he told her to sit in front of me but she did not do anything basically she will hear and she will follow only instructions of her aah Okay then the aah told her that in marati okay only in marati so a told her to sit on the chair on the on the stool then she said I will sit on the stool so the the sequence you have to understand is the aah will tell her

she will repeat it and then she will do it okay so she it then on the table I I told her that I'll do your Nara Now using the sensor so a said please keep your hand like this so she said and so okay and at that time the System was not this good looking it had a variety of cables different colors different sensors coming out of it and when I was about to put sensors or her hand she started speaking in Hindi and Udu suddenly okay asit without any prompting and all and she asked

me not to do her Nadi parisha because it will it will basically hurt her that was the experience that I had and you know then in our discussions SRA said some point was you know triggered and uh the whole Knowledge which is actually stored in our brain it got triggered and she could speak so you know I don't know whether it's punj this or because in her entire life she has been a marati person she cannot speak on her own she can only repeat only what a says and she told me not to do anything

because it will hurt in Hindi and uru you know so so the the value of our uh different types and from nadii so she was solving the problem of her that from okay that is one of the Experience the other experience on a completely different note is um I when my first daughter was born I I took her to to show her toan said please apply some you know oil her on her nose so because she was just born her complete oiling was doing massaging was going on at home and then after 3 days uh

she fell sick and so we went to some typical GP and she said nothing there is some blockage and I just apply some o that so you know 3 Days ago V was able to see that n and and predict that this is going to happen so apply this so what's the value of nadii from that the another very different experience which I want to Sol in next two years is something called Dadi okay Dadi is suppose there is a person who is sick but at home not able to come to me as a doctor

so so that particular for example a lady so that particular person will send her husband to me as a dut as a messenger okay so I'll check your pulse then you as a as that patient's husband will will deeply think about her her Nar will appear in your nari and that you know that uh do you think this really works uh we have done those experiments we have done those experiments and uh we have seen pregnant nadis pulse coming into male n and we have we have we have because again I believe you will take

the data science approach to bring evidence absolutely so what we are going to do we Are currently creating a variable form factor so um so lot of data coming from you your relatives and and so on and your common nature will go away so whatever remains is basically is this almost again might be at the risk of you know so there are two thoughts that come to my mind you've seen the movie Avatar yes and there's this it's the same thing you got it you absolutely got it so and you have the pulse through every

actually that it's actually that when Aatar says is it we think wow that's that and when we say it's a d we call it a pseudo science so so I have my I haven't it's not that something I have read it's not something someone has said and have heard it's something which I have actually experienced my machine has experienced so I have taken nardy of paralysis person I have taken nardy of a d person I have taken nardy of a of of trees when V was talking to the trees and so on so so there

are VI vibrations Everywhere and those vibrations are captured so this is the whole system that we want to you know uh bring out the the Rhythm in the nature through through this particular of course this is going to be my pickup point but this pickup Point realizing the earthquake in Earth is what the is is possible absolutely possible purely from data point of view this this sounds truly fascinating absolutely and unless you had a machine that showed me an Electronic W form for person of my Constitution it would have been very hard for me to

trust you on that yes same I mean 20 years ago I was you yeah 10 years ago I was midway today also I'm not 100% convinced I'm 80 85% convinced because the data is Yet to Come the variable is yet to come so you can you can realize that the the the results which we have shown uh it actually follows the rutu so but that is exactly what I wanted to come to the next Chapter so perfect segue into what your data Speaks now so you have five lakh data points yes are they the same

individuals tracked over so if you help help us understand are they five lak patients or you have tracked an N number of patients for n number of days at different so where the data is coming from that's number one and then I'm dying to hear what are your insights from all these datas you're talking about the seasons you're talking about Luna cycles and I'm pretty sure with all your connection of dots backwards you're going to talk about what foods do we have seasonally and stuff like that so I'm dying to understand what is your data

going to speak now yeah so basically uh since 2018 I'm selling this particular machine Nang to different vas across India of course between 18 months of covid uh our business got hampered but but otherwise today in India about 1200 ayura doctors are are using this Particular machine and uh on any given day we get 1,000 to 3,000 nadis on our server so when they are collecting data of their patients in Anonymous way the data is collected on our serve for further research and further Improvement and so on so from that sense the whole data set

comprises data coming from doctors uh data collected by us for specific reasons for specific clinical validations or um for different experiments that we do and so on so it's It's a completely you know random data we can call it uh in that sense uh when we do typical statistical evidence uh statistical studies we make sure that uh we take up all the rules from the basic rules from the ayurve 101 we can we can we can put it that way so for example when we wanted to do lunar based experiments uh lunar cycle based so

what we took is all the data which has come from Maharashtra to Delhi all the doctors who are using them we collected We we chose only that data our assumption was typical environmental seasonal component is constant that was our assumption so that's data so any patient who is coming to that particular clinic in January uh in that particular region is basically considered in January April data and so on so such uh in that particular year when we published this paper we got about 24,600 some some patient during that year in that Particular region um as

a part of the offering of Nar tarangini we give 22 Aura parameters right from pulsate the samam U different 20 out of 20 10 gunas AGI B and so on so these are all uh you know properties uh which a doctor understands and accordingly treat the so this every parameter for example ag jat ag your digestif fire we took that parameter then we took B parameter then we took tiata parameter and we realized we took the averages across January across February across so whoever came in January uh what the person uh his or her um

Agy so all that average average value average value average value and so on so uh if you see on this screen you'll realize that all P people are up all Kaa people are down and all V people so every person based on the personality has a different digestive Power by itself okay so that's why few people when they eat more uh they have some issues but few people When they eat more they have no issues and so on so which category they are in you can see that the for all people the graphs are like

this so in chaturmas region uh everyone's digestive fire is list considering all 24,000 data you can you can see that instead of taking averages in Jan Feb March I took the averages on pra according to Hindu calendar and again if you see the graph you realize that the shukl Baka when the moon is basically the fire is very high As compared to the Krishna Baka when the fire is low in a common sense on few weekends when we have pizza burger we we realize that nothing happened but on some weekend we feel that okay there's

some conation some bloating and so all there's a possibility it's you know shukl Paka Krishna Baka effect on on us so the rising moon and the veining moon correct right if you follow the red lines particularly of the P person of the P Nar which is more D you'll see That the graph is increasing coming down Oni increasing coming down increasing coming down on and so on so you realize the you know cyclic pattern of why there are days with low calorie food why there are days with eating anything every kadashi in mahra will be

a fasting day fasting day there's a possibility uh now we have to actually do a well sampled you know um study on this so that we realize that this is actually true this completely randomized data from patients Healthy people across all clinics has given me this result so you can so that's why why I said that charak and shushu of that time were the data scientists they have realized that based on some cyclic nature there are days when something things are up some things are down in rainy season in uh in when there is winter

and so on also when moon is at some position moon is at some other position so that's why when I said earlier there are so many nadis it's It's of that day also so that's why the complexity is very high a p Nadi for example a PR dominant nadii in rainy season has a different effect on me than a panar of the same numbers all suppose I have only 22 parameters of there are many but let's assume that in all there are 22 so if I copy this nadii and I put in the winter that

may have a completely diverse effect on me because I'm completely different person in the winter season so these are all you know Numbers which are coming out from that and and that's why uh so for un or we were working on a very specific project that if I know you as a person today based on your hydration level based on your skin type and so on I can I can give you better soap Solutions shampoo recommendations and so on from a point of view lotions and so on for uh so we we were working on

a HR related solution that you are a certain personality from a point of view you're a p person so you Will have a leadership property you will not be able to cope up with that particular personality so you should not be teamed and so on so you know team building this and that so so nadii has a solution not only in heal but you know in recommendations in team building right from career choosing and so on so so the applications are endless wow so you're telling me this is far more beyond the food that I'm

supposed to have on a particular day uh I'm kind of A little overwhelmed by all this because I came into this uh conversation thinking we're going to talk a lot about health since this was a primary health so I'm processing the my next questions from a personality type yes but before I get into that what was your biggest aha moment as a data scientist when you saw that data like what was that one Insight you never thought would come across uh that the data threw up to you do you remember one or two of these

things yeah So I'll tell you two such things yeah uh one was of course the first again I I I know I'm talking about by there but that's how my the whole journey started and that's the energy I receive every day even though he's not there anymore but his energy is still there so I as part of my PhD I worked on multiple sensors and which sensor is giving the best data from the Aur point of view from the nard point of view so every time I I develop a sensor I'll take a Graph I'll

I Bombay travel to Pune show that graph to vaj he will approve disapprove this is good that is and so on so the on that urea Point urea day basically I took that particular graph show it to him just looking at the graph he said that it's a female pulse 25 30 age group she's having a chest pain she is having spin because of gases ask her to do so and so okay just based on the graph and uh basically I had taken that nadii um of of my wife because she was Having chest pain

okay right so so so that was the urea point that the we I have got the sensor now what he thought what he saw is the is the is going to be the actual journey I realized that it's a simple Journey but but it was not it's a it's a very diff difficult Journey because those were the initial days now I realized it's a 10,000s of nari so much complexity and so on so that was the first Ure first wow factor that NAD is possible NAD is possible digital NAD Is possible technology is possible taking

this to the millions is possible that was that was first and second the lunar cycle was my like wow I mean yeah I mean there's traditional knowledge I actually uh you know I did that again and again I ran that particular experiment again and again for different parameters what I told you was only for a Agy parameter that it goes like this for some other parameters Moon has a completely Different so it has on ashami it has a higher point on some other day it has lower and so on so Moon which is affecting our

70% of our water in different ways it's actually visible in different uh Nadi pan so that was like another wow factor how we have realized the power of you know Titi in our uh in our culture ultimately this data science of Hindu cult data science of this following with respect to because we wanted all to Follow we put it into our Dharma we put it in our culture and we think that is more you know srti Dharma and so on but it's actually science and we have to look at it we have to open our

you know eyes and look at it from the science point and I think it will help everyone so that's what we are actually doing that let's not call this wat you call this Alpha Beta gamma but try to understand that you know so whenever I was presenting this particular graph in One of the biggest Conference of a Germans got excited so we are now working with one German company to establish rutu of Germany okay so we are going to collect a lot of data in various parts of Germany uh and we are going to to

put this in a cyclic manner whether there is some other Ruta in Germany and so on so that's so that because this uh the especially postco the non-communicable disorders the lifestyle disorders the environmental Disorders they are taking place I mean the diabetes BP hormonal problems mental disorder all those problems uh almost 70% of them in and we are said that in India we will be 70% by 2030 so it's not it's not too far it's not too far so they want to establish their own Rara to take care of themselves beforeand as as I told

you which food to have in which region uh which season morning which food evening which food and so on for example for a particular P person we say That this particular food item creates gases acidity and so on but if you if you eat that in a particular time zone it does not affect you so if you can able to you know convince to that person for example V you eat V you enjoy your V but in this time zone in this time zone you avoid I think I think a person who wants to enjoy

vapa in rainy season High rainy I think I think he will he'll realize now the follow-up question to do this is if Germans are getting excited Have you had a chance to present this data analysis at a non AA Conference maybe with Western medicine practitioners maybe at a data conference just because this sounds unbelievable that uh our ancestors probably knew what to eat on an ekadashi what you are saying so what are the reactions when you're presenting it at non AA so I did that in fact uh so we call this as a data company

we do not call this as a UR company we do not call this as a Nardi System we call this as a um uh you know some some physiological system which is captured and which is giving me enough data to talk to the patients so four disorders we chose diabetes cancer hormonal problems and blood pressure because these are the biggest ones uh in India at this moment and our results with three were very good uh the preliminary result can with cancer we got negative result to start with so um when I say results with respect

to these So we have set um you know diagnostic systems for diabetes for example we take a blood report we take a urine report and we have defined set of rules that if your blood count or your hbbc those numbers are in this region then you no diabetes pre-diabetes and and so on so there are set rules and we we came up with P nardy patterns for the same you know same number range okay and we realized that there is some correlation when we discussed it with Diabetologist of course there were two types of diabet

one accepted one not and so on when we discussed this with the Ministry of Health Science n and so on they got excited so niog has given me a 1 CR Grant only for 10,000 people clinical validation across India to prove ayurvedic way of noninvasive methodology of monitoring diabetes uh but in the clinical varation so so for 10,000 people we are going to do uh blood report urine report nard Report and how much is the correlation similarly I think studies will happen in other uh symptoms or disorder ERS also and we will start saying that

see this is not a this is yet another physiological signal you consider this yet another physiological signal you need not call this as Aur pulse signal to start with rebranding in the process correct I mean I'm just saying for the uh for this of course people have started realizing the power of Aur Especially postco for the same results which I told you uh I got the national startup award uh Modi G mentioned about this particular work in one of his monkey bath so these also actually helped us you know uh that people started talking to

us okay what is the technology what is pulse what is that and so on so that's why ni also uh gave us the first meeting let me put it uh let me put it that way and and now we have got the grant it came through AEL Innovation Mission extremely Progressive Department I would say uh and very thankful to them that they have given us this grant because it it really if if if it gets into that particular Zone that uh there is a there is a allopathy based solution there is aurad based solution let's

compare let's combine so that ultimately the patient is the winner not a particular pathy But ultimately the patient should be the winner this is a non-invasive system so the sensor which We are creating which will do 24 hours monitoring I think that will be like more like a 24 hour diabetes monitoring I don't know how it it will turn out as a product designer how you will design it and and so on but but that is how we we look into it that that's the future so by 2030 we are going to be surrounded by

tens 20s of sensors there will be a Google Glass there will three four sensors of IAT Fitbit and so on sensor in belt sensor in shirt shoes and So on you're painting a very scary picture so no it's the it's the reality so our vision is One sensor of all of them should come from India right based on Indian philosophy based on Indian science created by Indian scientist and we should export it across the so that's a that's that's the vision that we have that we have exported yog so far to the world I think

it's now time to export ayurve also in completely modern gizzed format with Technologies apps and so on so that is that is precisely what we are working on that's a great vision n thank you so uh at this point actually I have a question if ayura pioneered pulse is are there any other pathies that also have the knowledge of pulse or is it exclusive to Aur so if you go to a a completely allopathy based senior doctor let's say in 60s 7s they also check the pulse it's not that only ayur has the pulse but

they also check the pulse their Knowledge is slightly limited let me let me say that with very careful words that what they check is rate and Rhythm two important uh things that they check now the younger generation does not do that not many actually check the p in Aur it's much Beyond rate and Rhythm it rate Rhythm texture depth amplitude many more ultimately to understand sarati mandati and so on which we have converted into time domain parameters frequency domain Parameters SP care nonlinear Dynamics and so on so so all those parameters basically Define uh wpit

in in in today's sense so uh allopathy also has nari yunani definitely has nari sidha is also based on nari uh Chinese medicine has nadii Korean medicine has nari Titian medicine has Nar there terminologies are different uh some pathies check only one pulse some check three some check four some check at different uh depths some Check with one sensor three sensor I'm talking about human senses and so on so there are variations they call it differently but ultimately uh also there are eight prominent location on our body where pulse can be checked okay this is

the most suitable a male doctor can feel females uh pulse and so on so so that's why this was most developed but suppose I don't have hand uh it was it's lost because of There are seven more locations on our body where pulse can be checked oh nice so uh and and again all those locations are available in multiple pathies uh ayur has built all its knowledge all its diagnosis primarily on this so I a is much ahead but other pathies also have so from business point of view even yunani doctor is my is is

going to be my customer Chinese doctor is going to be my customer and it is very easy for me to convince a Chinese person to buy my Machine ultimately because he knows about Nadi he knows about puts so all pathies across the world know that there's something which is moving here it it can be checked only thing is its language is different pseudo science blah blah blah which we want so many traditional medicines are talking about it it stops being a pseudo science if they've developed it over years it's probably our limited understanding so I'm

trying to put a new light in my head About why probably I mean if you ask me what happens is anything herbal gets labeled as ayurveda and it's just herbal it's not ayurveda it's not coming from a place of research or science or statistical data that the ancient doctors probably did so we have done big disservice ourselves to Aura then ayurva has done to itself sometimes so we need to be careful about how we label ayurveda and stuff yes I'm a very small person right now to to say anything About this because uh uh it's

a big problem statement it's a big issue which patanjali is solving Shri is solving all big companies are solving multiple fmcg companies are entering into the Wellness industry again they are solving this particular problem uh the uh current BJP government is solving this through different days Ministry Ministry of aush through milit year through Aur year and so on so that you know people start realizing the power of herbs power of Millets power of uh um as simple as Ginger uh Power of yoke power of Surya namaskar so one of in one of our experiments at

MIT College of Pune uh we chose about 50 70 students asked them to do Surya namaskar so we chose the uh students who have never done suryan namaskar in their life so we did Su namaskar for several days Gap Sury namaskar Gap Su namaskar and we took pre poost pre poost pre poost nadis and the Nadi B and we realize that Nadi B Increases goes down increases goes down increases goes down so Nadi B which typically talks about your rugna or your sh b or you you know overall different ways strength so we we show

that for those students it actually increase decrease increase decrease increase decre when they were doing SU namaskar the numbers were inre simple experiment but shows that how suryanamaskar is effective to increase your internal that's s and that is what is written Just a number is showing that this number is changing oh I would be very curious about pranayam then yes pranayam uh we did different experiments with respect to um viran Kaa we did different panchakarma treatments and so on so we took prepost prepost of many herbs uh many punch treatment and we show that every

punchak Karma treatment solves one particular problem it works on one Guna it solves that you again come back he sols another Guna and so on so it is Actually helping you so otherwise uh as a common person if you go to a buti or Village and you just realize okay I'm feeling good at but but what is feeling good what is something which is actually changed in you there is no difference I mean there is no sorry there is nothing to see there's no evidence but now this n is actually giving you evidence through this

V we your through this we Sol your this and so on so that is how you know this this will help we have a Spa report now so typically when you go to a spa you have a menu guard which you know you go there for regeneration and and so on you go to no Hotel there is a spa and so on so so through Spa report we are giving Which massages are suitable for you which oils you can use which oils you should avoid based on who you are based on what is your n

and so Simple Solutions uh based on your n pra I have a better understanding why you call yourself a research prer because You're doing so much research and applying nari to what we are doing in daily life so anuda in this particular part we will love to talk about your entrepreneural journey I'm pretty sure you've chosen a very hard nut to crack and it's not going to be smooth selling and you've given a hint of that in the beginning but walk us through uh what are the challenges of building a tech based solution in India

and especially in the field of Wellness Healthcare what Has been the journey so far and it's okay to say you are a data company but the end of the the day this will be pursued as a medical device for all the reasons right so just walk us through what that Journey has been right right uh well when I started back in 2016 after um you know finishing the postto and validation phase and all uh the first help I got was from my I alumni friends and that was a good you know uh first ever funding

I would say To kick my K kickart the the whole journey uh buil the first team it was a completely new learning for me and and so on um for next couple of years we actually did more validations more research uh the device came into the picture and so on and we launched it so it was based on my experience with doctors and and and so on the product miserably failed in 2017 when we launched because what I realized what I had imagined that this product will help The ayurvedic doctors in so and so Way

doctor never wanted that they wanted something else so the journey actually started when I launched it and a few doctors bought it just to help me out and so on because they knew me and so on so while using it uh we sat with them them we understood what the pain real pain points were and what's the problem with the machine what's the problem with the technology with the patient management software the report card Which we were generating and so on and based on that feedback we relaunched we pivoted something and we relaunched in 2018

uh and that's that's when you know it it really helped so so the first lesson was one of course you should love your technology you should love your field you should have highest passion for it but you should not be in deep love in in your product or your offering that you do not understand what really the world needs or your customer needs And so on so that's the first lesson we got and uh it was pretty hard I mean we lost some money into it also and we lost almost a year and then uh

the product was picked up uh we got good connections with doctors uh un were got interested we were working specifically for them good team big team and so on and sadly when covid happened because we were working for un I had stopped or I uh you know made compromise on the sales of Nar because as a start small startup you Cannot do two things and during covid um everything collapsed we we did not have Nar we lost un project for obvious reasons and you had to stop the company operations for about 14 16 months for

various reasons we lost all the money from the investors and so on my of course my dad bought back some shares out of it but but that's another learning that we got was keep a good amount of money in the bank to you know to sustain and so on um Because we were getting money from a couple of investors including uh un venters we were discussing big numbers with them to Launch launch similar product in the US in the Europe our demos had happened at their rdam main office and so on so we never realized

that this will not go ahead but that's why you know small chunk was remaining and on one fine day I had no money to sustain to give back to give salaries to my employees and uh The team of 50 55 people we came down to three I had to let go the entire team that was the biggest you know setback that we had uh but of course u in that closed operations period I did a lot of research worked on the data which we had collected work on it did a couple of uh assignments for

people with respect to data analysis this and that so uh you have to be open that sometimes you have to do all the works uh which may not be part of your actual vision Mission of the company but just to survive so that is what we did in those period and then I have restarted the journey now uh got a couple of rounds of funding now we are getting the seed round and and now we are so it it has been a roller coaster right three things I would like to say one uh which I

never realized in my initial days the support from friends and families you do not see it but it is actually there so when everything Collapse they are the ones who are there to support from Finance point of view from from mental strength point of view and so on so you have to make sure that you give enough time to them that enough time could be 1 Hour 2 hours a day maybe a Sunday I don't know you define on your own but but you have to give that time that's the biggest uh learning I got

uh the second is of course uh finances so I call still I call myself as a research maner but you have to understand Finances you have to understand Excel sheet you have to understand your Top Line bottom line and and so on where the numbers are going where you can save every penny and so on that's what I think the best of best businessmen do and uh I never did now have started looking into finances also otherwise I had a finance guide to look into it but as a as a product owner as a company

owner as a I I need to know uh what numbers uh actually flow into that Excel Sheet at the end of there and that's the second learning uh that and thirdd is of course who is customer customer customer I mean the focus should not be on the product but mainly on the customer What that particular person or that particular company needs from you and you have to make sure that you are satisfying that particular need rather than what you think uh you want to solve and so so these are the three biggest learnings I had

uh From the field and I the difficult I I faced I think the everyone faces different levels of difficulty it's not that difficulties are not there it's only that there's a group called ik Indian knowledge systems right from Health to Metallurgy to we there two different sections are there um if you see around us there are so many problems which India is facing um we are a developing country I think uh to be an entrepreneur in this particular is the Best thing which can happen because there are so many challenges so many problems so many

solutions are needed so you choose any problem which is small big whichever you feel like and make sure that you are solving that problem bit by bit I think if you have enough passion perseverance I think you you can solve this just keep your eyes open talk to your parents talk to your friends talk to your uh um all colleagues and so on and make sure that your eyes are open For that particular problem statement for which you will have enough guts enough passion to solve that problem I think the journey could be good when

you started this did you do this Market study Market size because that's typically what is required so give us a sense for like how big is this whole Aura business in India I'm pretty sure when you look at the consumable side of the aura it can be billions and billions of dollars but on the diagnostic side do You have a sense how big this business is so uh when I started it was preco era mhm so the total addressable I mean total market for me was uh in India there are six lakh ayurva centers Aura

charara and about 1 lakh or 1 lak 50,000 ayura practitioners outside of India that's the whole Market of this particular product postco the wellness Market the a market the holistic Market the naturopathy market The herbal Market the Nature anything related to uh holistic sense that Marquez has like expanded like exploded like anything so the 3.5 health and wellness trillion 3.5 trillion industry has become supposedly the number is not out yet but it is said to be 4.55 trillion industry the complete health and wellness and what is increased is Wellness what is increased is Aur other

Pates and so so so the market has become huge um the same product now we have come up with Different applications with respect to Wellness to Spas with respect to yoga senders with respect to gyms so now in the B2B region itself the market has exploded for us okay thankfully in India many of the iush centers Healthcare centers which are there across India they are also implementing uh you know some kind of Technology a based into their setups so that is also our Market this particular funding which we are doing now is is for two

Reasons one to expand this its Market uh it's a scale up in India abroad in these all verticals which I mentioned and secondly change the form factor of this table top into a variable form factor so which will completely you know uh as you rightly said billions of uh opportunities in terms of money in terms of scale up uh it will so we are not creating yet another variable because people have the market is I won't say cluttered but it's kind of saturated now People have bought 20,000 30,000 50,000 gadgets on their rist watches so

what we are actually creating is a clipon okay so you just clip on on the existing normal watch or Fitbit or eyat and it will do 24 hours of monitoring these machines will keep going to the uh clinical setups medical setups research centers colleges I centers and so on which become the base centers and this basically gives a proper sense with respect to Personalization prediction uh it will give on its own on your app the recommendations with respect to diet yoga music uh sleep water breathing sometimes we forget to breathe so you know this will

sense that and it will ask you to breathe uh it will give you best possible music best possible yoga and so on and whenever this particular sensor gives some activity out of range you can always talk to a tele medicine person from our team or you can always Go to a you know Clinic which is closer to you using this particular system or we we will have the whole ecosystem ready for them in that sense so so this particular uh product and this particular patented sensor by the way I forgot to tell you the technology

has been granted patent in US Europe India Indonesia and so on so the technology is patented now so so this opens up a whole new EOS system of uh ayurway technology in the Um typical to you know clinical setup Hospital setup home setup and self-care setup and from that sense we want to complete it we want to make sure that it is helping people from all possible ways that sounds like a fantastic idea that now I can I started off the by asking can I measure my own n yes you're going to do that just

to here so this you asked about you know the resistance and all so raising funds for this part was also difficult because Aur is slightly No no postco Hardware business from investors point of view is slightly mono uh longest times and combining both and I'm I'm trying to say that I'm creating ecosystem in B2B as well as b2c M so you know but but I'm very happy to tell you that we have got investors like carat Lane eest Blue smart and so on the best of best uh entrepreneurs who have created large Solutions very specific

with respect to scalability with respect To design with respect and so on they have they have invested and they are hopeful that we we we create a solution for the world so so that's the journey we are on I'm I'm very I'm very excited now I just have one more specific question since this is a medical device yes would you fall for regulations under the CDs and others so how do you work around that what's your strategies over there so when we started this um it was a aw device it was a wellness device so

So far we are talking only that so there's a very thin line you know whether you are in this region or that region but because we are collecting a data from body from a physiological signal from definition point of view it's a medical device from that side so we started this journey with as simple as ISO 13485 okay then as a second step we did IC certification which is nabl accredited IC 6060 and Hy one which takes care of Your electrical thermal drop test and so many test which it comprises we have started with the

cdso certification it's a long procedure absolutely so as part of that we received the testing license we received the FDA uh certification for the manufacturing facility the um the setup which we have at hin and now the final audit is going on it's a long journey yeah and uh yeah I think we will receive it in some time is what I feel so once we receive it it Will uh it will have its own you know benefits in multiple uh one from cdso it becomes a medical device we are officially you know Market or distributor

on one hand second it opens up on J portal the E Marketplace of the government which helps us to uh you know go into the different setups with respect to Ministry offices or smaller regions and so on so so so we are looking for that also but yes as you rightly said uh the certification Process will be needed uh it is stringent and we are facing the problems but but we'll solve this so you are a data scientist yes uh data fascinates you you have applied data science to one parameter on the body and try

to bring evidence to something that is a little mystery yes or what other I'm just thinking curiously what other you know uh may be perceived as occult practices or for example astrology and other Things what are the other interests that you would come up if you had the Liberty to take up one of those things and bring more evidence what fascinates you from a data St standpoint so uh if if we pick up that book of I so I about which I just mentioned systems they have published a book now okay so that book has

every page has a problem statement okay they have they have they have done that for us let me put it that way I forgot the names of the authors but all Of us should buy that book how rich we were from the knowledge point of view in our ancient days and any page you open that has answer to your question uh if you ask me uh I will stick to ashava parika okay so the Eightfold analysis diagnostic process that out of which pulse is the first thing so we are currently working on tongue so um

we are working also on the face we are working on hand we are working on the acti Paran and so on so uh so Basically um mobile is the best sensor right now M so you just do a video of your tongue you do a video of your face you do a video of your acti uh you ask questions uh you check some skin textures and so on and a complete machine learning based approach for that particular uh section whether it's tongue whether it's this I think that that can add value to the tongue uh

to the pulse to the nari so if I know a person through Nar parisha I know I will Know better through more questions through more tongue analysis through more skin analysis and so on so so these are the next steps that my company will uh uh will definitely look into so we'll start as pilot studies and so on in fact we looked into tongue sometime back when I had time the app which we had we called it tongue fee so we keep taking selfies yeah so instead of that it's a tongue selfie so every day

you wake up you take a selfie of your tongue you Upload that's all that's all you have to do uh very happy to tell you about 2,000 people were involved and they were sending me tongue Fe every day and we followed them and very happy to tell you those lunar cycle effects which I told you so even tongue photos the cracks on them the colors on them and so on they change according to what you eat according to the Luna cycle and so on so so there is a huge I'm sure the astrology the Ki

and all those will also Have similar surprises from data point of view to this I think all these Sciences will merge together eventually but uh all Engineers all data scientists all Progressive people should come together joints hand together and make sure that we collect a lot of database and and actually create Solutions so that it is actually beneficial to the people because eventually I'm not solving this problem but I'm solving the bigger problem of when I say my vision Of the company is personalized predictive non- invasive health monitor right so today when the uh so

typically when a disease happen it goes through five or seven stages that it starts looking to it then it becomes a symptom then early become and then finally it's a disease correct so those seven stages if you are able to detect in early stages St then the cost of reversal is less right and uh the pain is less the suffering is less absolutely everything Is less I think if all pathies come together I think the prediction can become even better better better and better and eventually if I know something is going to happen because now

I have to travel because I a businessman I have to go to Bangalore I have to go to Delhi I have to go to Europe and so on so all those ciren rhythms are going to change my food is going to change uh my stress is going to change I'm right now I'm taking care of 35 families Tomorrow I may take care of maybe 200 so stress is going to be there so all those factors are going to affect me so if I can take care of them through as simple as breathing as complicated as

you know very very disciplined this that that I think that is what is going to help me and similarly it will help all people whether you're a salesperson you're whether you are a creative person whether you have a very monotonous uh job profile in all those Scenarios I think uh such solution will help super it has been fascinating the way you have built your device and the stories that you're telling in what this is doing I think ayurveda is at the Crux of getting demystified with this device and if there's more belief I always felt

that we have done big disservice to ayurveda as a country where the origin is we have not marketed it well we' have not found Global acceptance and partially we are to blame but I think You are one shining example of how a technology-driven approach towards our ancient knowledge can bring it to the benefit of the mankind hearty congratulations on your new fundraise we look forward to what new evidence you're going to bring and I'm going to watch out for the new data uh statistical significance that you bring to tongue and other things I'll always be

curious about what your new device looks like thank you for joining us on 42 talks Thank you so much where you get an answer to everything and everything thank you thanks buar thanks again