okay so two questions then we'll we'll go in two directions from that the first question is like who is running the show as far as you're concerned in the Trudeau government or who was then and and maybe it's Trudeau but maybe it isn't and so I'm curious about that I mean I've heard from other people that I've talked to that he is um markedly absent in during discussions of idial significance let's say he's not particularly interested in policy he's not interested in the details of governing now I don't know that to be true and so
that's part of the reason I wanted to talk to you and then I also want to know once you realized who you're actual who you were actually responsible to you know which is a very good realization right in a democratic system to remember that and I can understand perfectly well why you would have forgotten that given the Glamour and glitter around the in the dawning days and your relative inexperience okay so then once you came to that realization what changed and how did you what changed what did you start doing differently and what happened so
let's do the first thing first who who is running the show or who was running the show as far as you're concerned and what did that what did that mean yeah so as far as running the show I I think most people would remember Canadians would remember that when Harper was a prime minister that people kept saying that you know the the prime minister's office was really centralized all decisions were made there nothing changed with Trudeau I it was the central office it was his his principal secretaries Jerry buds Katie Telford that were primarily running
the show and I I don't think I'm the only one that would say this I would think that you know Bill morno left said the same thing others have left and said the same thing so don't this is not a selenized perspective this is something that I witness and I think it's actually true um when it comes to uh you know after the incident with jod Wilson rbl When Jerry but stepped down I thought he was only adult in the room and when he stepped down it became very apparent that things were going to get
a lot worse before it got a lot better and I we could talk about that later what happened after yeah what happened after uh I made that recognition was I did things completely differently uh and and I got into I still kept getting into a lot of trouble for things but I at this point I I was doing it for the right reasons without getting in good trouble and often times you'd be given a speech and be and said here read the speech say what's on the speech and don't deviate and I'd say forget it
I'm not saying what's on this speech this speech has nothing to do with the people of Whitby it has nothing to do with the people that I serve tell me the three things that you want me to say that are really important I'll say those but I need to make sure that I'm representing Whit so i' I'd write my own speeches I'd make sure I'd say them in French and English English because I didn't want anybody to knock me for it and I I really made sure that I wasn't doing the cookie cutter politician move
where you'd see one person sends out a tweet and everybody's tweet looks exactly the same that wasn't me I was me I was very clear to make sure that the people of Whit knew that I was serving them and if I couldn't tweak the messaging I posted nothing and then I think towards the endend uh towards especially March of 2019 I just decided that I was not going to let the actions of one person dictate how I left government and I was not going to let Justin trudo continue to be presenting himself as this Sunny
ways great politician when I knew that he was the emperor with no clothes on so what did you do about that like you had some famous blowups as you departed from the political scene now this is reminiscent you mentioned Bill morau and Judy way and Rael so your your I mean part another of the reasons that I wanted to talk to you is because you know three establishes a pattern and there seems to be very very close Affinity maybe I'm wrong about that but from the outside close Affinity between what happened with morno and what
happened with rabbo and what happened with you and that's three and so maybe you could let everybody who's watching and listening know about these other people that departed and why you think that happened and then also tell us when you decided to speak in your own voice again given that you weren't given the opportunity to speak as the press secretary anyways so tell me tell us what happened with Bill morno and Judy Wilson rabo and then also what happened to you when you started to reclaim your territory let's say yes yes so it didn't start
with us though I I want to be very clear Leona Alis Lev left way before decorated military person who decided to leave and cross the floor to the conservatives really early in our mandate because she was so disenfranchised with uh with the prime ministers other people left uh after left Eva nessf also left because of the bullying that she received within the party so there was there was a few people so it's not just a three uh By the time Jane Philpot decorated Medical Professional left it we we were Way Beyond threes at that point
so yes yes yeah so there there were there were quite a few and I would say for me I didn't have to have a public blow up with the Prime Minister when I told him that I was leading in early March of 2019 I was very clear for all of the reasons that we discussed before feeling tokenized not getting the support of the Prime Minister just being very much marginalized within a liberal which is make it makes me so it is so upsetting because it's it's one thing to say you know you did some missteps
but I felt duped by a party that I really thought understood what it meant to be Center understood what it was what it meant to have equity and Justice what it what it meant to have those things and to be disenfranchised by them because I wanted more for the people that I served was was uh was disenfranchising for me yes it was defin that is the word thank you very much that is actually the word betrayal and so I called the Prime Minister and I said look I'm not running again uh I I I didn't
even have to give him reason I said I'm not running again um it's four years I'm not getting a pension I'm not getting anything I just don't want to do this uh he first he said well that was the same day that jod Wilson raybolt had stepped down he couldn't have he PO he couldn't have two women of color leave at the same day that's what he told you really like dude that's not my problem that was his first response to your yes okay so that so I'm going to play psychologist here for a minute
okay because that's really not that's seriously not that's seriously not good right because if he was a wise man and if he was a mature man he would have understood that you put your you you divested yourself of your business you your life took quite a turn and that even if you two didn't get along the fact that you'd been in government for only four years and you were leaving without running for re-election without a pension meant you were going back to Square One in many ways and so the first thing he should have said
even if he would have been somewhat truly self-aware and and still putting his own interests first he should have at least had the bloody sense to act as if he cared about what you were telling him the fact that his first response was I'm dead serious about that like even if he was faking it you know if even even if he was a wise Faker the first thing he should have done was said like something like well you know I know we've had our differences I really appreciate your service you put an awful lot of
on the line for this it's really unfortunate didn't work out um is there anything I can do for you to make your departure more straightforward I wish we could have worked together more sincerely right definitely definitely and then if he was a genuine human being so to speak that would have actually bothered him but the fact that he came out and said I can't afford to have two women of color leave me the first the same day like all that means is that that every single thing that you regarded was as a betrayal was in
fact a betrayal absolutely that's absolutely inexcusable but wait there's more that's not all he said that was the first thing he said so I said you know Justin perhaps if not today or tomorrow or at some point in the future you'll understand the level of sacrifice that I've made to be in this role and I repeated it again not today or tomorrow but someday I hope you understand the level of sacrifice and then he he was not happy with that he said oh my God oh my God Selena I can't believe that you're talking about
my privilege I was like what what he said you know he started talking about the fact that he has he has you know had had death threats too and that and in my mind I'm going but you have an RCMP detail when me and my kids had death threats I didn't have anybody right like so there's a lot of stuff missing from this story Jordan that like that that you're not I'm not putting out but he went on and on and how I needed to appreciate him because he came to the writing during the byelection
and how I should be you know grateful to him and I just was like oh hell no and I said a few Choice words to him after that um because I I lost it at that point and uh yeah what did you say the point you say oh I I did you tell well you can tone it down what what were you conveying put it that way I was conveying that I wanted him to know who did he think he was speaking to like I I'm not a child I'm not someone that he could just
reprimand I'm not I'm a I'm a colleague and as a person in a professional capacity if he had went off the way he did with me on on someone else he would have been taken straight to HR and that doesn't happen because he has parliamentary privilege and so he's able to get away with those kinds of things and I wanted to make him darn sure that he was not going to get away with it with me and I knew that he called on the prime minister's line and so I know that whatever I'm saying that
happened in this exchange is recorded somewhere so I told him absolutely not you are never going to speak to me like that again at the same time though Jordan that would have stayed completely quiet I would have never mentioned that I had that phone call with the Prime Minister ever until the issue with jod Wilson rbl came up and go through that yes and so Jody Wilson rold for the for those who don't know was the first indigenous Minister of Justice and attorney general of Canada decorated uh lawyer uh really really really admirable smart person
uh when you talk about Merit absolutely has the Merit for the job now whether or not you like what she did within the context of this situation is irrelevant to me the fact that the that the prime minister's officer office pressured her to do something that she knew would get her possibly disbarred and that the ethics commissioner found the prime minister in breach of and actually wrong for pressuring her to allow this this company to uh to to pressure her in doing uh something with this company is is quite telling so she she was actually
in the right by not taking the the pressure or advice of the Prime Minister but that's not the point the point is is that after this all happened with jod jod stepped down she was being pressured to do something that she knew was unethical was wrong uh by legal standards she said she wasn't going to do it she stepped down she was demoted first then she stepped down as Minister of Justice and attorney general and then she was thrown out of the party her and Jane Philpot Jane Philpot again decorated a medical uh Doctor Who
was the minister of Health the president of the treasury board and another Ministry within our government the prime minister after that decided that he was going to go on national television and apologize to Canadians for the kafuffle that was happening within his government and he said the words of and and I'm being I'm going to misquote here so we could look up the words at some point but he said I want Canadians to know that my office door is open and it is available for anyone to come in and that I treat everyone with basically
kindness and respect in Sunny ways and I listened to that and I said absolutely not I had the first phone call with him in which he raked me over the cold for not appreciating him although I had sacrificed just as much as he did and did exactly what he did to get to his position I ran I was elected he just had a different title we both worked hard but I needed to appreciate him for whatever reason rake me over the calls for that and then the second time I went to him I went after
that meeting and I said I I was going to go to him and say look you know what we both said things we didn't mean on that phone call let's try to this is the last call that you described that's correct the last phone call I went to him after that and you know just like I'm sitting across from you now said let's let's be adults here we said some things we didn't mean let's move it along the the the level of contempt and almost hatred that he approached me with I was I have never
felt more scared in my life of someone to be in a room with someone and I knew that wounded narcissism oh no I have not rings a bell no well beware of it seriously so okay okay so that's a very that's a hell of a thing to say seriously that's that's quite a thing to say that you were afraid okay so I want to know why why were you afraid that's a yes because that's look that's that's a whole different level of anything that you've revealed so far right the worst thing that you've really revealed
so far is the last conversation that you had with him where you both lost your temper and exchanged some harsh words right and there was all this strangeness surrounding rabbo and and morno at that time too but now you go there in an attempt to what would you say I wouldn't say smth over the waters but yeah yeah yeah yeah that's right that's right put some Putty on it or something right right right well and I mean people get upset and they say things that are emotional and then they can have a calm discussion about
it then set things moderately right so they can go ahead but you said you said that there was a a terrible tension in the room that you associated with both contempt and that's not good contempt is a very very dangerous emotion so married couples going for counseling who roll their eyes at one another have about a 99% chance of being divorced in the next year contempt is not good and contempt plus hatred that's seriously not good and contempt hatred plus fear in the Target that's really not good okay so now tell me exactly what transpired
in that meeting and why you had that reaction [Music]
