Intellectual Catholic Argues For The Divinity Of Jesus! Muhammed Ali

how are you been a while hi hello nice to see you again um yes my my my grandson just messaged me to say U now he's live now go for round two round two is a boxing match no a nice spiritual religious discussion and you said 2,000 people are watching and nobody wants to discuss I want to discuss anything oh yeah usually it takes the while to come you know the the non-muslims there are other people now in the backstage but you welcome as well of course uh so uh what was the conclusion from our

last talk and discussion what what have you done since that last talk that's what I'm curious about you know well I I liked it it was a good experience I always like to you know it's rare to find somebody with whom you can have a a religious disc a deeply spiritual discussion you know find a Believer you know I I know that I don't agree with everything you say you don't agree with everything I say but I do see in you a holy man and therefore i' like to discuss with you all right no problem

so uh if we'd like to discuss something I think it's more the foundational issues like last time we talked about different things but the most important thing again is is a question I always asked to every Christian why do you believe in the Trinity or that Jesus is divine why do you believe that because last time I remember you you you mentioned that you've not given me like passages or reasons into why uh this is the case like like Jesus himself is a claim that we make as Muslims all the time is uh if you

want to believe in Jesus you want to be Christian want to be a follower of Christ then you should start with what Christ taught and Christ did not teach about himself that he was God he did not teach about himself that you should worship him that's something that Christians do today but that's not something that Jesus ever taught about himself and this idea of the Trinity similarly is not something is a teaching that comes divinely inspired from God God did not teach that did not say that that's why throughout Christian history you had Christians themselves

disagreeing on on these beliefs you yourself I remember very well mentioning uh Augustine I believe and how he uh found the mystery in the idea of the Trinity and he could not explain I remember you very well mentioning that example on the beach and I remember that uh but again we're talking about biblically now we're talking about the divinely inspired things yes yes but I I I don't agree with you you see because when you say it's not divinely inspired obviously you you're basing yourself on the Quran I'm basing myself on on the gospels no

no no no I'm talking about the Bible actually I'm saying the Bible does not teach that Creed well but I think it does you see because look when Jesus called his disciples to follow him he couldn't just say look I'm God you know was a human situation they would think he was crazy why would think so enormous that he had to do it over a period of three years okay and and and not not always in words but in in in things that happened that made them think who is this man uhuh who is this

man for example he he sent them away across the lake in the boat because he wanted to stay on the mountain and pray after preaching all day and that now then he came to them and there was a great storm and he came to them walking on the water M and and uh St Peter said to him let me come to you over the water and he says well come and he started to walk across on the water but suddenly he looked round and he was frightened and then he started to sink and Jesus came

to him and put lifted him out and said ah little man man of little faith why did you doubt and then both of them got into the boat okay and then Jesus calmed the storm and and the apostles looked at each other and said who is this the the the wind and and the waves obey him you know they don't give the answer but they pose the question the question come the answer comes later it's a gradual revelation of the Divinity of Christ all right so this is this is the thing this this is the

issue that I have have two issues the first issue that I have is that you're agreeing with me essentially you're saying that he didn't say you're saying that he had to do certain ambiguous things and people had to come to their own conclusion so we're agreeing so we're agreeing essentially on the idea that Jesus did not claim to be God and I'm glad that we agreeing we're agreeing on that we're talking about explicitly we're talking explicitly I'm not talking about examples things that he did the people came to their own conclusions that's what you say

I'm talking about an explicit statement of him ever saying to the people I am God worship me I'm the Divine Creator I'm a part of the Trinity I'm the lord of the heavens and the Earth he never said these he never used these terminologies by the way if you go on a Google Search and you type the Father the God God the father or God or or the Father the lord of the heavens and the Earth you'll have passages you have around 14 passages uh appearing showing you that saying that God is the father you

not have the any when it comes to the Holy Spirit you're not going to have any when it comes to the son you don't have explicit passages like this you have it when it comes to the father that's why throughout Christian history Christians did not disagree on the identity of the father everyone believed that he was God and when it comes to the son do we first agree and then I'll come to what you were saying just a very simple question I have yes or no do we agree then that explicitly Jesus never claimed that

he was God explicit statement clearly unambiguously did he do that um when he when he appeared to them after his resurrection um the first time that he appeared to the apostles who were afraid and gathered in a in a room all closed in because they were afraid uh that they themselves would be arrested and crucified he appeared amongst them um miraculously because they the doors were shut no and at that time St Thomas wasn't there but a week later he appeared when when Thomas arrived they told him about it and he said ah I don't

believe that so unless I put my finger into the wounds in his hands uh uh and my my hand into his side uh I I won't believe and of course when Jesus AR appeared the ne the following week and amongst them he called Thomas up and he says come here give me your hand give me your fingers put it into my um and and and Thomas knelt down before him and said to him my Lord and my God okay excellent I I'm very familiar with that text but again you're not you've not answered the question

I was asking there what you ended up doing is bringing Thomas the doubter that's what the title that they gave that to that man so now what you try to do is to try to say look my proof is this guy who's a doubter he is the only evidence that we have that Jesus is it's not even God that he just said a statement there I'm saying Jesus himself not Thomas the doubter that had the doubt about every single thing in the Bible we're not talking about that person I'm asking now a very simple question

I'm saying I'm gonna respond to that verse by the way I will I will respond I'm just asking you a very specific question it's a very my mind is searching for for for a better example I mean he says I am the way the truth and the life all right no problem let's start with that statement first let's agree again all of these statements you're bringing this is not I am God this agree first I I said ask for something very very important an unambiguous statement where he says I am God or where he says

worship me or where he says I'm the lord of the heavens and the Earth or he says I'm a part of a Trinity I'm a person of the tri God none of that exists in the Bible now what Christians would have to do is to rely on on ambiguous text like the one you're presenting right so when you call the truth and the life which is in John 14:6 specifically this is not proof for for Divinity in fact if it's proof for anything it's proof that Jesus is not God and why is that the case

I'll tell you why is that the case and I'll respond to the other things that you brought right now as well first why this verse is not proof that Jesus is God because when you are the way he says I'm the way the truth and the life to the father so he's the way to the father so if you're the way to God then by definition you cannot be God you're not the destination you're just the way to the destination so that I say that that verse is if anything gets a proof that he isn't

so first John 146 the Thomas verse I'm going to respond to it as well now on every single Bible every single translation in English in Arabic in Chinese whatever you want to bring it there when the the statement my Lord and my God is there there's an exclamation mark why is an exclamation mark used usually in language why do we use an exclamation mark there's no there's no punctuation in The Originals no no exclamation mark is there even in the original Greek why is it there my why do every translation why does every translation have

it sorry no but my understanding is that that there's no punctuation but but let that pass it's not no no excl exclamation why is it there in every single translation yes I age shock yes I agree he exclaimed yes so he was shocked no one would disagree because you you you yourself have spoken about the history effect so the history of the the or the context of the event is that he thought Jesus was there so now he sees someone that he believed was dead and then he's touching him to make sure this is he

has actually not he's not a spirit or something he's a human being is alive so when he's doing that this is a statement of shock if I'm now shocked and I say oh my God my Lord my God and you standing in front of me now that doesn't mean I'm calling you specifically Peter my Lord and my God now this is the issue this is the best that Christians have it's a statement of shock someone who's shocked when an event that was very surprising sorry this is very interesting you're not a lawyer are you no

I'm not a lawyer no this is your day job as it were no no no no I'm just reading in context you know these you're right you're right and you seem to have a better command of the Christian scriptures than the majority of Christians I must say um a wonderful thing I wish all all all Christians had that grasp of the scriptures the the in a in a certain way I think you're right that in fact it wasn't till um the four christological councils maybe talking about the year of 400 or something around that that

that time um 325 and 381 325 niia and then 381 Conan that that that the definition of the Divinity of Christ is absolutely signed off MH absolutely signed off and and I agree that there were some at that time uh the Aryans who who who who said no no I I don't go along with that no uh very holy and great prophet and everything but not God majority did it's not that they suddenly believed it then this was a growing belief and a growing feeling that the apostles already had I mean it's there in the

I agree I agree with you it's not explicit he never said I'm God come and worship me on the contr worshiping the father and calling everybody to come and worship the father and that that that was his mission all right so so it it's very interesting things there but first I want to like briefly touch on what you mentioned before about him like controlling the wind or the weather whatever it is right yes Allah says something beautiful in the Quran and and I believe also probably believe biblically as well when it comes to Solomon that

he had control of many things that God given him one of them was the wind Allah actually explicitly says in the Quran that we given him the ability the power to control the wind wherever it sits wherever he tells the wind to go so uh that's not that doesn't mean like Allah given certain miracles to certain prophets does not necessitate that that Prophet or messenger is God now we've agreed on something which is very important there which I like the idea of the development of the belief of the Trinity now you say it wasn't there

before I I highly agree it wasn't only the arens led by Aras in in the in the Council of of NAA for instance where they were arguing against C athanasius Etc uh on the idea of the Divinity the full Divinity full coqu equality with the Creator and and not subordination that Aries held that was not the that was not the first group or the first people to believe in that there was earlier groups you had the nazarin you had the IUN very early groups as early as 70 AD or even very very early that also

did not believe in the Divinity of Jesus there was multiple of different groups that had different beliefs and if you really read the writings of Paul you'll even see that he his belief was very different to the trinitarian belief that people hold today if you like put his belief under actually uh scrutiny and you actually look at the texts that he's using it's more was more of a batarian belief he believed in two Powers more than he did believe in in three in one that that's not something that he was describing that I would say

that is my personal reading of his own writings but I'll say this when you say the disciples I'll say not only the disciples I'll say Mary the mother of Jesus uh and and I'll ask everyone to tell me that did Mary the mother of Jesus or any of the disciples ever say that they believe that Jesus was God himself walk Walking on Earth did any of them make that so we agree Jesus never claimed that he said worshiping to the father alone he didn't say to himself now let's look at the disciples or the mother

of Jesus his own mother did she know let's take Mary i i i i agreee with you when her baby was born um she had no idea that that was that was um a divine child she had no idea of that um when when the three kings come uh following the star and and kneel down and give their presents to him she she's amazed she's amazed when the Shepherds come and say look the angels have appeared saying this and that she was amazed it says she kept these things in her heart and pondered them you

know Revelation couldn't come in a flash it had to come over a long a gradual long period And I couldn't tell you at what stage Mary came to believe in the Divinity of her son I don't know when exactly but I but I'm absolutely certain that she did let's go back a moment no no no but but you just posi that she did without any proof like I disagree with that I thought of an example if let's go back to the gospels where there is a almost explicit um um claim to Divinity in Jesus um

there was a big crowd around him he was preaching and he was in in in a house there but they the these people this chap was paralyzed on on a on a stretcher and his friends were very anxious to take him to Jesus to be healed but they couldn't get through the crowd so they climbed up on the roof they opened the roof and they let the stretcher down in front of Jesus and Jesus saw the faith not so much I we don't know how much Faith the sick man had but his friends had great

faith and when he saw their faith he said he said to himo not be afraid your sins are forgiven now it so happened that at that time Pharisees had come Pharisees and scribes had come from Jerusalem to to Galilee you know across the mountains and that to to to Galilee to to because they had heard that there was a prophet there and they wanted to analyze him and report back to the chief priests in in in and when they heard that when they heard that they said he's blaspheming he's Blas they thought to themselves he's

blaspheming because only God can forgive sins and Jesus said to them he pointed to them and he says why are you thinking these things what is it easier to say your sins are forgiven or take up your bed and walk but to show you that the son of man has power to forgive sins he said to the man take up your bed and walk and he did sure ex I I love this example by the way but first we were talking about Mary and this is a beautiful story like like and I find it like

I I'm personally fascinated by when you have this story the mother of God in your belief uh Mary because my my uh kind of claim is the following it's not only that Jesus never said it but here his his disciples never believed it they never said it and nor did his mother when Mary was there was a story and I'll respond to what you said after I mentioned this very quick story the story of Mary and and Joseph where at a certain in a certain point of time uh they lost Jesus she lost Jesus he

he was lost right and she was looking for him and and she she was terrified both her and Joseph and when they found him she said oh my God I was terrified like we basically me and your father basically her betro when she was betro to Joseph we got terrified we looking for you now imagine she actually had the Bel that this was the Lord the god of the heavens and the Earth imagine like the lord of the heaven the of the heavens and the Earth is lost in his own kingdom you're not going to

be going around terrified looking for him she's gonna be sa to Joseph don't worry it's God God Is Gonna Come when when it's time for him to come right but she knew she knew that was a baby yeah at that stage she didn't believe it okay know that Divinity that's quite agree he knew he was very special she knew that he was special and of course she said why have you done this to us your father and I have been looking and he says not know that I must be busy with my father's Affairs and

of course the the thing is that Joseph was not the father of Jesus he was the Foster father of Jesus in those adoption meant even more than it means nowadays the bonds were so spiritual that I mean um he was definitely to everybody point of view he was definitely Jesus father Yes more those only that actually not only that the uh um when you are betro to someone in the Jewish tradition there is a level of physical contact between both the the if you read the the uh Jewish kind of beliefs it's not like today

but again let me respond to the other question sorry the other verse that you brought now this verse I found very interesting first I'll say this verse in in it Jesus telling you he is in God how is it is Jesus telling you he is in God he says the son of man you know funny funny thing is this if I were to ask any Christian is is Jesus a man or did he say he was the son of man you know over 80 times in the Bible you have Jesus saying he is man or

the son of man no no one will ever be confused that he was a man he was a human being everyone who saw him knows that he was a human being but he said it 80 over 80 times they use man and the son of man now the the the thing that people are confused in which is the idea that whether he's fully divine or God or all of these different things he never said even once which shows you I would say clearly that he isn't God so when he came to the idea of forgiveness

of sins he didn't say so you can know that God has the only God has the power to forgive sins that's what the Christians say he said the son of man this is the term that he used in that specific event in fact I would say that's him telling the people look I'm just a human being but when you say when Jesus says to someone your sins are forgiven when it comes to the idea of forgiveness of sins we don't just believe that this is just okay if if Prophet Muhammad said to some of the

companions by the way that for instance that they are guaranteed heaven so not only that their sins are forgiven but that they are guaranteed heaven which is even more major than to say that your sins are forgiven now he is telling them information from God that doesn't mean now that he became God so if Jesus were it that's not the way the it they said he's blaspheming I agree now let me tell you something very interesting Peter you just use the Pharisees is your evidence you know the same Pharisees said Jesus was the son of

the devil the same Pharisees said Jesus was was demon possessed crazy Eve all of these things so why don't we take all the claims of Pharisees if you want to base like your belief on the the false and Incorrect and corrupt understanding of the Pharisees you're not going to go anywhere anywhere good we don't see but I I I said I've said this to you already previous on the previous occasion not that we don't see the the the Bible as you see the Quran a slight difference in in how we perceive it and and this

is a mystery the Divinity of Christ is a mystery and what there are is Clues no clues and and these Clues you know say you're not going to believe because the Pharisees believe that he was be El's above and that he was this and that no I agree but there are Clues pointing in this direction now you mentioned St Paul before and St Paul's didn't um know Jesus in his Earthly life um but and and I agree that his his theology is different to the the slightly different not essentially different to what the apostles believed

no definitely so so um I I have um a Jewish friend who who gave me some series of books and and one of the books was um an analysis of the teaching of St Paul because Paul was a was a a great Jew I mean he was a Jew scholar he' studied under gal and he you know he was top education in the Jewish law uh and so they were examining his writings to see whether whether you know whether they could consider him a faithful Jew or not and it's a funny thing because you talked

about the Council of NAA um Pope Leo sent wasn't actually present in the Council of NAIA but he sent a legot with his letter and the letter was read out in the council and the letter is a summary of of all Catholic teaching about the Divinity of Christ and and they all jumped up and said Peter has spoken uh through Leo through Leo not about the Divinity of Christ um now um the Jewish analysis of of St Paul it's funny because I had just read the T of Leo and and now I'm reading Jewish authoritative

analysis of the teaching of St Paul and he said St Paul just went one step too far in declaring Christ Divinity and therefore we have to consider him a heretic if he'd only been just a little less we could have considered him uh you know just a a Jewish sect now I I'll say a few things now okay so the F the first thing is I would say there's no such like Declaration of the Divinity of Jesus on the mouth of Peter or anyone in the in the gospels now you want to use external sources

you want to claim that this something is is happened now the thing is this if you look at what Peter actually says if you open acts for example 222 you have him saying Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God by Miracles wonders and signs which God did yeah which God did he yeah yeah but he says by Miracles wonders and signs which God did through him he didn't say he did it and then he says uh which God did through him and you're witness to it you're seeing it so he never if you see

what Peter actually says you're not going to see that Peter was teaching nor the James by the way nor the were the they were the head of the apostolic church but none of them were saying oh Jesus is the Lord of lords the god of gods bow down and pray and worship that was not the teaching i s the disciples i s of okay if you keep that on on on just I want to respond to one other thing very very quickly you said there's Clues that Jesus was God that you you can pick up

from the scripture and this and this is our issue as Muslims we say God is not going to hold me accountable in the day of judgment as a Muslim I'll say I don't believe Jesus Is God I don't believe in the Trinity I didn't find it there there was nothing clear there so God I have an argument against God on the day of judgment I have an argument to make and that argument is that you never told me clearly to worship you if you open the Quran Allah says he is the lord of the the

heavens and the Earth worship him I agree with you I agree with you on the day of judgment God is not going to say to you didn't believe my son Jesus because you of course he isn't okay so EXC your conscience you have found God been following Muhammad and your life has been um facing God and you've done everything that you believe that God wants you to do and therefore it's clear to me this is why I consider you a holy man but not only that but not only that Peter not only that Peter it's

not only that that there is there is only clues that Jesus was in God I'll take this explicit statement now that he is God now this is the funny thing is that when you got explicit statement opposing the Creed you know let me give my example yes Jesus is going ascended into ascended into heaven but before he ascended he said to them go and teach All Nations everything that I have taught you yes I know I know that verse in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit the Great

Commission they call it in Matthew I'm I'm very familiar no problem your understand your knowledge of the scriptures so so I'll tell you now the other problem with the Great Commission Now now there are quite a few uh biblical Scholars that said that this specific verse is a corruption I'll tell you why now first I'll say let's accept I I what I do is I do steal man let's accept the argument let's accept that it's not a COR corruption and then I'll demonstrate why they said it's a corruption even if we were to accept that

it's not a corruption this verse does not prove anything why because if I say there are three separate individuals I mentioned in one sentence that does not mean they're one that does not mean they're all God that does not mean they're persons that does not mean they're Co equal coeternal so if I say baptize in the name of uh Muhammad Peter and Michael that doesn't mean now that that three of us are one or that we are Co equal or that we etal that doesn't mean that so even if that verse is true even if

I were to accept that verse it does not prove anything now secondly not only doesn't prove anything but the Christian Scholars say that this verse is a corruption why do they say that they say look at the teachings of the Apostles you have the Apostles in Acts and other places baptizing multiple instances every single time none of the Apostles have baptized in the name of the father Son and the Holy Spirit and allegedly that verse in Matthew was a direct command to the disciples he was speaking to the disciples in that instance we don't have

a single disciple baptizing in the name of the father Son and the Holy Spirit the every single disciples just baptizes in the name of Jesus and you open the book of an this is a challenge I gave to many Christians and I welcome you to do your research after our talk you're not going to find a single instinct of any of the disciples baptizing in the name of the father Son and the Holy Spirit and that doesn't mean that they went against jesus' command it just means that this verse there's a corruption in this specific

verse and the specific passage over so this verse does not prove anything whether it was or or it wasn't true it still does not you know give an argument to anything do you have any other verses like I'm I'm happy to hear Look I I had to write an essay once um which was entitled roughly uh outline references to the Holy Trinity in in the in the New Testament and I I was amazed to find the number the number was about 50 you know 50 references to the you know and and I had read it

all over and over but in the moment of studying it and and looking at there was a huge number of references let me help you I'll help I'll bring you the best ones now I I'll I'll qu you all the the best all the best arguments that Christians POS first you will you'll try and call oh Jesus is on the Alpha and the Omega the first and the some people called that which is in the Book of Revelation I'm assuming that was one of the references that you had now the problem with that is that's

not Jesus's words that's a vision of John in uh The Book of Revelation and it's not proof that when you have a vision of something because they're metaphorical and you have multiple visions of John in the Book of Revelation are crazy you know seven spirits of God you know four corners of the earth my essay didn't include the the book of re okay then we don't need we don't need to but many Christians use that I'm just responding anyways and you have someone called mesic who had no beginning no no end no father no genealogy

so that doesn't mean that Jesus is G another reference you'll have uh before Abraham was I am which is in John chapter 8 verse 58 I'm assuming that was at least you can conv yourselves at this rate sorry you're going to convince yourself at this rate I cannot convince myself because I know to response for every single one of these things and I know these are just ambiguous stat so when you have him saying before Abraham was I am I'm saying that's also not pro that he's God why there's two arguments that Christians make one

is that this means he's Eternal because he was before Abraham we say first no it doesn't say Eternal it just says he was before Abraham Satan was before before Abraham and I mention mkdc who is actually Eternal according to the Bible so if someone is eternal does not mean he's godone the second thing they say is that this is the name of God in Exodus when God said to Moses you know in Exodus 3 in Hebrew specifically I am who I am where I am whatever I am they say oh I am there means God

I'll say if this is the case let's replace the word I am with God then it will be before Abraham was God that doesn't mean he say he is God he has to say I am I am so I am God I am that father I am that name but he didn't make that claim all he's saying to the Jews because they were saying how do you know about Abraham he's saying to them before Abraham was God so God is telling me about Abraham God is there before Abraham before everyone else so it's very easy

for God to inform me information about him now now I'll tell you how many reference are there that Jesus is in God and and they're explicit they're clear they're not things which are ambiguous because you and me would agree if you say that Jesus was Co equal to the father then by definition everything the Father Knows Jesus knows do you agree with that um yes but you'd have to you'd have to qualify it you see because Jesus has two minds I have only one mind my soul and my brain one mind but J the same

human things that I have but he also at the Divine mind and he doesn't necessarily transfer one thing to the other for example uh when the internet started first of all we had a computer and then we had a monitor where you could put in these discs for example the britanica came in three discs the whole two shell of books no you put in the to the whole now let us imagine that so so that later on the internet came and then it wasn't just in cycl but everything was included in it no so okay

let's for a moment imagine that the the the the old fashioned thing where you put in the discs uh was Jesus human mind he learned things he knew things from his experience his parents taught him all those things were in the three diss in his brain okay you could connect the old monitors that it light would flash when you were con Ed to the internet and suddenly the whole world of knowledge is available to you okay like a metaphor for Jesus Jesus could think in his own mind when he wanted to he could connect up

to the Divine mind okay and and for example there was a young man came to him and said what have I got to do to to to to what have I got to do to to please God or something like that he said to him how do you read and he said well keep the Commandments honor your father and mother this and that yes yes so do that and you'll have life and he said he wasn't satisfied he wanted more and Jesus looked at him he says gazed at him and loved him if if you

want more go sell everything that you have come and follow me yes you know and and unfortunately he was a very rich young man too painful a thing to make and he and and um he said and Jesus said it's impossible for a rich man to to be converted it's more easy for a needle he gave the needle example yes yes and and and then the apostles were outre said because this is a rich man in those days they believed that God was rewarding this man because he was good making him Rich you know so

rich man they beli was blessed by God so if this rich man blessed by God uh couldn't find Salvation then then who could no who could and he possible for men but but not impossible to God okay now now the issue is like you said something about two minds of Jesus and and all of that like my issue is that is that Jesus never says that there is not a single inance of Jesus that's why I say look Christians have believed they hold Faith certain beliefs I believe these beliefs like for example the hypothetic union

which came in the in the 400s this idea that came in the councils in the 400s which is you presenting it didn't it didn't confirmed and signed off that's a different sing okay okay where where is it in the scriptures where does Jesus ever say I have uh two minds 100% human 100% where does he say that let me tell you something that non Catholic Christians sometimes are not aware of or don't believe yes but the Catholic faith is based horror of Horrors it's not based on scripture it's based on tradition and with a small

T tradition with a big T the oral tradition passed down from the apostles through the Bishops uh to to us today now yes this is this is backed up this is how should we say um um strengthened you know surrounded with strength by by the scriptures but it's not the basis and often times popes and Bishops have said you cannot from one scripture quotation you cannot extrapolate a whole Doctrine you have to take the the the the the wide fan of of of scriptures teaching to to to to take a Doctrine from it you know

you know you know yeah no I was I I was just about to say thing that I want to say to you before we we we should have to end the most important I have to say about faith in the Divinity of Jesus is that we consider it a spiritual gift from God a re a divine revelation made to each one who believes in G it is the Divinity of Jesus it's not given to everybody sure I I I like that you say that because this is look for us this is all we want to

we want to hear the truth and this is the truth the truth now as you presented it's not as these most of these beliefs are not necessarily you don't you cannot use the scripture and come to that conclusion you got to have the tradition Church fatherly tradition Church fatherly beliefs and that's what the Quran explicitly says in chapter n Allah explicitly says in chapter n verse 30 Etc Allah Asel says that the Jews and the Christians have taken their rabbis and priests as gods and they took the Jesus as well as a god besides Allah

how did they take them as Gods is this is them bringing beliefs about God bringing traditions and teachings about Allah that are not uh spoken by God God did not tell you that himself like when God spoke to Moses when God spoke to Abraham when God spoke to Jesus when no no Revelation there was that there that Jesus has two Natures that he has hypothetic Union that is a trinity that Trinity is the father Son and the Holy Spirit these are three persons the persons is not the being and the three persons are qu equal

qu Eternal but the father is not the Son and the son is not the holy spirit this does not exist scripturally you got to have to do what we with all the respect of course I'm not trying to be insulting but what people called mental gymnastics you have to do that in the scriptures have to jump and try to cross reference ambiguous statements from here and there combining together come to a conclusion so you can avoid contradictory things like for instance that Jesus doesn't know if Jesus has an access to that switch that he has

all type of knowledge he cannot say I don't know because that would be a lie because he has the access to that switch and we can have all knowledge who's he's fully God so he cannot say I do not know and and Jesus if he was God he cannot say I have a God not a father he says I have a god you cannot be God and you have a god you cannot fall in your face and pray to someone else other than yourself you cannot say father saved me when you had all power that

switch like you know you save yourself into second I say father take this cup away from me like Let It Be Your well not my well but there ones who well well why is the well against another well why is why is he asking another uh person to do something why doesn't he do it himself if he wanted it and if he didn't want it he wouldn't be asking it now these are big problems that's why you find the church fathers this is the funny thing about the church fathers they had different beliefs many of

them had very very like very problematic statements in John 173 for example where Jesus says there's only one true God and he refers to the father and the father is not the son or the Holy Spirit and he is the only true God only true God yes so you have church fathers then saying that the father is superior to the son because of this verse they're not equal yes we ourselves I mean I've just come from Mass a couple of hours ago and we pray the Creed we say I believe in God the Father Almighty

creator of Heaven and Earth of all things visible and invisible you know that's the beginning of our Creed it goes on to other things but that's the beginning and the foundation of our Creed okay that's okay so the father is superior to the son okay let's let's let's sum up this whole discussion because it was a pleasure talking to you as usual Peter I enjoy our discussion but let's try to sum up the whole discussion so we what we have agreed upon so far is that Jesus does not explicitly say that he is God worship

me he say explicitly worship the father all you have is clues that you have to look and and gather and then come to that conclusion that we cannot use the scripture as evidence for the Trinity or the hypothetic union or most of most of the Creeds of Christianity you need to rely on the tradition scripture alone is not going to help you these things are not going to benefit you there thirdly that there are these very problematic scriptures in uh the Bible that shows the subordination or or the lower lower state of Jesus with in

comparison to the father and you've agreed with me that you do believe the father is superior to the son they're not equal in every sense the father is superior I haven't said that I don't agree you don't believe that no no I Jesus and his Christ in his divinity is equal to the father that's the Trinity is equal so so Christ in his divinity does he know the hour thing in his Humanity of course he's not equal so Christ in his divinity does he know the hour yes div Jesus in his divinity is equal Jesus

and his humanity is not equal no no I'm asking a question I'm saying in Divinity in the Divinity of Jesus in which he's equal to the father as you said does he know the hour when when is the day of judgment the hour when is that going to happen the second coming of day of judgment does Jesus know According To Jesus no he doesn't know yes but Mark 13 Mark 1332 that was on purpose that he didn't know and and I I've often thought that in fact Jesus was um um mistaken and I I have

a feeling that Jesus maybe thought that the end would come very quickly because CES believe Jesus made a mistake basically Jesus chose not to know the time no you said he was mistaken he made a mistake yes in his Humanity he made a mistake I mean how often must he have made a mistake they were walking along in at night on a journey and he would turn back and say pet come over here and he said no it's James in the darkness you know human mistakes like that he must have had thousands okay sure so

this is the thing we're saying we cannot worship a God that makes mistakes whether it was you want to call it human whether you want to call it otherwise we cannot worship a God that doesn't know everything and that makes mistakes and and we agree on on this anyways Peter that on the day of judgment Muslims are in your belief I believe and you said the pope as well last time we spoke I believe that Muslims are fine the way they are if they're doing what they're doing if they're worshiping God good Muslims yeah the

people who worship God the people who actually obey commands of God and try their best you know everyone has mistakes and sins but they try their best to live the life in the commands of God but these good Muslims they don't have issues on the day of judgment now we say it's safer for you than Peter to be a Muslim because as a Muslim you know you're saved from a Catholic perspective but you're not saved as a if you're a Muslim the Christian is not safe so I'll say it's it's it's a bter gamble for

you Peter your belief to become a Muslim that's what I said to you the very first time that we met in the first sentences and gave you confus because I said to you in a way I am a Muslim because the word Islam means uh submission no no but I mean in the full sense that's why I corrected last time I mean Muslim in the full sense meaning to follow the teachings of prophet Muhammad to pray the way only in the sense of one who submits to God yes that's okay so you need need them

to start submitting to God in your teachings in your daily life to pray five times a day there are times that passes you throughout the day to fast when God told you to fast that is true submission submission is to obey the commands of God that he sent with His prophets and with that Peter it was a pleasure uh you know talking to you likewise likewise I appreciate you coming always you're always welcome uh to have a discussion all right Peter bye bye bye bye God bless you see you