was Jesus what color that black what color was he jesus was a human if you're a Christian you believe that he was the second son of the Blessed Trinity he was the son of God he was divided but he was expressed as in his thirty-three years on earth as a human being and now coming forward are not a few very very active people to say but the presentation of a white Jesus down through history before people of color has served to characterize the Caucasian as superior as the best as better than others and more than that has perpetuated a lie on the people of color and continued their enslavement asthma here's who's here blair Underwood joins us Blair Blair needs no lecture on this a lot of black folks don't go for this black Jesus at all been praying to a white Jesus all their lives this is their Jesus and no activists of the moment is going to come along and rip that imagery out of their soul and they're just as proud of their blackness as anybody else it doesn't have to do with all this psychological stuff that you newfangled people keep bringing out blair Underwood has produced a it's you know it's as misleading to call it a movie it's a 30-minute short though yeah a 30-minute film in which he plays Jesus let me show you just a piece of that Blair and then we'll well gab here a little bit Jesus this is the crucifixion this right at the beginning of the film just a moment to show you watch it here is the beginning of the film titled the Second Coming which was written produced and as you see starred him by blair Underwood you should also know without giving the story of this film away that the historical Jesus then appears in your film as a contemporary black male right who is in a mental institution and they're scared to death of this guy and I mean almost to the point where you know they're just beating him down did the Rodney King thing inspire you Oh most definitely I've talked I've been very outspoken on things that I have dealt with with the Los Angeles Police Department friends of mine young african-american males with the so-called justice system and when the Rodney King the first verdict came out a year ago it hit me said yeah I said you know it doesn't matter if you're a so-called celebrity it doesn't matter if you're Rodney King even Christ if he were a man of color were to come back he would be treated the same way so in the film that's why he's accused of this heinous crime without giving too much of it away but I I need to make the point bullies get into this because this is gonna get very heated as it has before they will offer their own insightful civil but it's important for people to realize that this film is not about dividing people you see beside us to see in the film it's about understanding it's about enlightenment it's about what this man Jesus whatever he looked like what he taught his philosophy of love but we're dealing with this historical figure yes what color was he Blair in your own are you you are a Christian yes I am you were raised a Christian yes and you know this is not an investigation but I mean was it you better get to church or Mama's gonna have to know why I don't know I know it was pretty much like that yeah all right so that you it was it Baptist Baptist all right so you sang all those him to Jesus and I'm sure that Jesus in throughout your childhood was white is that so that's that's correct but we were always told that he was a man of color before we get in there you have to understand what is black what is blackness blackness is one of three things it's either a perception what you see when you look at me Phil you see a man of a darker you it's either a state of mind at consciousness that's why I have friends of mine who are white and you'll send in and they know more about african-american heritage and culture than some black people and you say what is this white guy he's black he's a brother thirdly when we talk about blackness it's defined by ancestral lineage your genealogical line if you go to the genealogical line of Jesus there are people of color throughout his lineage completely and the thing is before anybody can take issue with this film or with this entire issue and it's not a novel idea the significance of this film is it's never been on camera a black Jesus has never been on camera certainly not a crucifixion so it's been there and it's important to establish that because of all the things you say we talk about justice system well but but once we get beyond that then and only then it becomes relevant yeah let me just I want to make sure I understand your position here at Blair you do seem to be finessing a bit that color is a matter of the heart and you're right there are white people who have been so very very exemplary and their continued effort to ensure that the civil rights of all people are are protected that that people of color minorities have started to refer to them as brother or sister great great but they're still white III think you are you are suggesting that there's some pretty good historical anthropological evidence suggesting that Jesus just probably was black am I correctly as stating your that's right was he a Jewish black guy too there's no question we're talking about Jewish man from Jerusalem who more than likely there were no camcorders or Polaroid cameras then but more than likely had to have been a man of color talk about probabilities are you there caller yes well I just want to say that when God said he was going to make man in His image he did not mean white green or any color it was supposed to be spiritually like him yes well yeah yeah no that's that's I'll tell you caller I very much appreciate your thoughtful comment except you are kissing a baby here and you're waving a flag these politically active people who want to you'll see in a moment there are people who are taking down the white Jesus because that is he was he was he has been presented for 2,000 years before peoples of all color as the core Caucasian European I got through Europe oh we got you've got two lines coming in on one that's a pretty good sign Blair you've kind of rung the bell here so please don't miss the point it's not enough to say hey we're all God's children if you continue to present Jesus this way before little african-american children or people of color all over the world they grow up somehow believing that way down inside white is better plus the fact that we're talking about the historical figure we are created in God's image in God's image but this man Jesus the actually on being we're speaking on are you there caller yes you wanted to say yeah I wanted to say I'm a 32 two year old white female who was raised Catholic and I I just have to say that no matter if Jesus is black white green red I believe in the Supreme Being and I think that's what we all have to look at I asked the Catholic this question yes I wouldn't be okay with I do I assume you're a churchgoer well no not as much as I was well good you been alright well it's not this would you would you would you approve of your pastor changing the color of Jesus statues to black in your church if that was what my church did I do I don't look at a picture of Jesus say oh that Jesus I have a feeling within me that there's a Supreme Being what caller has Junior what car has Jesus been throughout your childhood white that's ridiculous what color was his mother you know who knows and I don't think people that are on your shoulder there where I must tell you this I'm older than you are but there were no black statues in my childhood well right though I mean everybody st. Teresa Joseph everybody everybody I the guardian angel was white right they were all white and I'm just saying but just because that's how we were raised doesn't mean that we have to be so narrow-minded and so focused Blair agrees I'm sure just something different she's missing the point it is twofold you have to answer this question twofold it's important because when you speak of this man when all the evidence points to that it's an affirmation of people of color I'm speaking of Latino Asian African Americans and Native Americans people of color it's affirmation of our place in the history that we contribute it I'm telling you people wonder why they're riots and why they're blacks and Latinos in jails so much there's no self-image when you're when you deal with revisionist history there's been revised and ultras as it has it deals with your self-image you don't care about life in the Reverend George Stallings now referred to as bishop former Catholic priest sense has split himself from mainstream Catholicism has his own Church Washington DC he preaches a sermon here is Good Friday of this year the Reverend Stallings from Washington we must make one thing clear on this Good Friday that the Jesus of history that you saw walking up the street just a few minutes ago posture [Applause] [Music] now what I'm seeing is we're starting to divide it's not about dividing people it's about speaking about the truth and then that's the second part of the question you have to deal with this man this man was about love this man was about embracing everybody spain was about forgiveness this man was about enlightenment this man was about tolerance and that's what this film that we did the Second Coming is about tolerance for each other and tolerance bridge each other's religious beliefs I have to say I have to make this point with all respect to Archbishop Stallings I don't agree with tearing down other images you can't you can't force people to believe like you believe I believe it speaking about the truth here is here is the Reverend Stallings I'll tell you what whether you're on Saturday Night Live or standing in this public square in Washington DC seems everybody's putting the match to something today so so this is not going to be met with the approval of everybody some people communicate differently than others and that's if I'm understanding mr. Underwood you are among other things saying that you believe it can be established very credibly that Jesus was a man of color and that if I'm understanding you you have a certain empathy for those especially those older Christians of all colors who have spent a lifetime worshiping of white Jesus you're not gonna go in there and break anybody's statue but you are stepping forward to say I'm stepping forward 2,000 years later you have to understand the initial images of Christ in the Madonna and countries like Poland Spain Italy is a white Caucasian country right worship a black daughter on a black Jesus these images were altered and changed alright are you there caller hi hi Donahue hi I'm calling from Pennsylvania and I'm a white female and I don't see where there's any difference in whether or not Jesus is black just like the first caller first I'd like to commend blair Underwood for the relevance of what this is bringing out to the surface in these day and ages people need to get beyond the color factor yes who we pray to does not matter we were created in His image if I go to heaven I might see him as white if someone else goes to heaven they might see this as black who do we know what we're gonna perceive him as well except that we are left to at least leave the door open for at least an inquiry as mr.
Underwood has already offered us with his film titled the second coming if we accept the humanity of Jesus that Jesus was that Jesus was a human being who happened to be divine and that is traditional Christian doctrine then we have to deal with his end ethnicity and that's what Blair is doing I'm glad you call Pennsylvania are you there you had a brief comment go ahead yeah I would like to say that number one yes Jesus Christ was a black man Jesus Christ was from the Mediterranean region and if you were to read in your Bible it will tell you that he had matted hair and websi white people always said that Christ black people had webbed feet but that's not the issue here look to the Mediterranean people were dark-skinned you know this revelations huh Ephesians 1 verse 15 yeah you know that you want to talk about there we go as you know the Bible of course I'm a brilliant biblical scholar but here's from revelation his head and his hairs were white like wool as white as snow and his eyes were as a flame of fire and his feet like unto fine brass as if they burned in a furnace so it's the brass metaphor that you that you think lends support through his being a person that is what you usually hear the brass metaphor and also about the hair but more specifically like I said before because that can be talked away and rationalized away into symbolism yes okay I'm talking about the ancestral lineage of this man and and in fact scientists have told us we all come and the first man and woman were black so really we all have it yes Magnusson are you there caller I'm glad you waited hi hi Blair hi I tried Phil hi I am a white Christian woman and I believe I agree with Blair that you're five four five yeah right I agree I I believe just because geographically where Jesus was born that he was of color I don't know particularly what shade but I know he was of color and I also think that you know when it comes down to it everyone who's a Christian believes in Jesus blood and that's what matters the color is blood I do thank you for your call I assume Blair is encouraged by the support you're receiving you come out here waiting to hear some self-righteous white Christians stand up and say who do you think you are messing with my Jesus well that is part of them we have gotten that and we will get more of that but these are people who have missed the point and will be back to talk to young people white and of color about this issue will talk to a leading member of the Baptist National Baptist Convention from Indiana as well as other Christian people about how they feel about the effort to re-examine the man who was called Jesus what color was he and we'll be back in just a moment [Applause] yes you wanted to say the Reverend that was shown on the TV him I think that's as bad as what Sinead O'Connor did when shipped up to play Sinead O'Connor should have ripped up the picture of the Pope and you don't think he should but what he did was twenty times worse and haven't heard a word about what you said oh yes I would just like to say that due to Romney to tell you you're not supposed to use these images anyhow read your Bible yes Jesus was black and he's coming back again he want you to get your act together Kayne hope Felder thank you thank you praise the Lord I don't first of all I want to commend you by the truth the spiritual significance of Jesus Christ is that African Americans have suffered from institutional racism which diminishes their spiritual and cultural self-esteem because of the color of Christ and that should not go unnoticed commend you brother bless young people have been asked to be with us some not so young people you just might be older than the host here well then I should be deferential to you into your age sir and I will these are people who are Church active and I think most are Christians and wants you to know that I think you all are very supportive of Blair's effort to share with the nation and the world the idea that Jesus was a man of color gain hope Felder PhD joins us you're a professor at Howard University School of divinity and you wanted to say what about this issue I want to say first of all it's important to recognize that the Bible is represents a world before color prejudiced the Bible represents a world that has a very favorable attitude towards blacks it's a multicultural world one of the great tragedies has been that in the last 400 years Europeans and white Americans have created the whole ideology of white supremacy and they have in the process taken the images sacred images as well as secular images of that of Victorious and positive and may those images white and and by the same token they have recast black into a negative image I mean that is a very important thing to keep in mind here we are interested corrective historiography setting the record straight so that our people african-american people will begin to sense I think was pointed out in the very wonderfully early after I have much in history that has been neglected it is not a reach to suggest that the slave who worshipped on Sunday the Messiah who was Jesus who was white in all his temporal manifestations as offered to us by Michelangelo and other of the classical artists over the centuries would be likely to bring the same kind of obsequious deference to the slave master who was white as well so I think you are here to say among other things that inside there's nothing overt about this and it's an it that's insidious but it's there is the notion that somehow white people are to be obeyed respected and looked up to by the slave particularly when the white slave master has a whip and a gun to the slaves head particularly when this this image is presented in such a way that the black has no option the black cannot believe anything else it cannot even suspect kind of expressed right I anything but the quiet inner pain of seeing the inconsistency between the whole teachings about a God of love and somehow the Bible is being used to keep them oppressed and feeling negative about themselves and that is a tradition that we have received in America and the average white person needs to be instructed on these meds not just young black kids the average white person in America is as misinformed and and Mis educated as the average black person I think that this is very substantial issue in all of the colleges and universities in this country Muhammad Ali called our attention a long time ago to the color of devil's food cake and angel food cake are you there caller I'm glad you waited hi is the caller there probably a good idea if I push the button hello yes ma'am I'm sorry you wanted to say yes if Jesus is supposed to be black all of a sudden why wasn't he portrayed as black 2,000 years ago why did they start him out as white and all of a sudden he's black you got a lot of white reporters intervening I mean it was a you know I mean I think these folks are suggesting that the image of Jesus was co-opted by the white establishment over the years all the all the artists were white they will allow you this well liars I mean over 100 references to to Egypt are in the Bible over over 50 references to Biblical Ethiopia which is present-day Sudan are in the Bible Old Testament and New Testament Bible scholars most of them have been white have translated and interpreted the Bible in a way that will be distinctly favorable to Europe and a way that would be distinctly unfavorable to Africans and people of color and this is an issue that we really have been suffering under for a long time and we'll be back I got a break call I'm truly sorry give us a one-liner and I got to get out of here in that case we can't believe the Bible Eva well now just be careful here and we'll be back in just a moment [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] hi thanks for waiting caller you wanted to say briefly yes I'm a black female I'm married to a white male and my in-laws are so prejudiced against me now I just wonder what's going to happen to all these people to are so prejudiced and so hateful towards black folks when they do see a black Jesus if it is a blessed Jesus and what's going to happen to the most of the media that has just yea been terrible to blood we know what are they going to say that yeah well first of all there's not going to be one decision about what color Jesus maybe in your church this would obviously be something that the church itself incidentally many churches have already made this step forward right not a few are predominantly black churches in urban areas hang on a minute caller because next to dr. Felder is Karine Stewart you're a real live 15 year old teenager well we should know how you feel mr. Stewart sir what are your thoughts about this issue well I just think that through our history our history has been denied if you look at we know we don't have to just look at Jesus we could go back to Cleopatra when when they was played Cleopatra we didn't see that on television we saw a white woman's Cleopatra we saw Moses on television portrayed as a white man you know but this is not something new this is not something that just jumped out the cracks all of a sudden is we have been discussing this for a while what inspires you Kareem you're very obviously you've done your own scholarship on this at age fifteen you were raised in a Christian Church huh yes you're just singing the choir I mean we you had there every Sunday now don't lie to us I think required my mother my mother had me to come I bet she did are you still singing in the choir Karine this is none of our business you want to take the fifth go I can't I can I'd say yeah I'll see you in a car cuz I can't see [Laughter] [Applause] yes yes it is very good point and you're probably not too good with a three-shot three-point basketball shot either so let's put down a lot of these stereotypes while we're at it you're you're you you were inspired to look into this how a cream well like most children and stuff I really didn't pay any attention to it when we walked through the church Jesus was white Mary was white every picture on the wall was white but then one day I just took a step back and look and thought about why is this why do we have this images where are we we didn't we're not just slaves we are more than X lace we're from Africa we have a very rich heritage we were the first architects we built pyramids we were the first astrologers so I just take this I just took a step back and said hey we're not this we're more than gang members we're more than killers basketball players [Music] and I think it's the it's the time it's the time it was time 25 years ago when Martin Luther King was assassinated by Malcolm X was assassinated I want somebody else to step up to the front play it's not we just shouldn't sit here and just say oh hey they let us go to a bathroom it's time for us to change [Applause] I'm glad you called calling you at a brief comment ah yes I'm a african-americans female who's about to become a mother and my comment is in reference to the depiction of biblical characters throughout the year if it wasn't such a big issue then they would also involve people of color throughout the year I mean what am I supposed to tell my child when it's warm and it says mommy why isn't there people my color up there yes you're thinking mom your wheels are turning Santa Claus in a household where there was a white Jesus or Caucasian person depicted yeah and you never thought anyone of colors like we didn't exist hang on a minute Jesus role was a man of love when I'm seeing hearing isn't much sacrilegious in other words Jesus is what color Jesus role was it was a man who taught love what color Karla has nothing to do it okay sacrilegious disjoin of the picture if you look in the Bible it tells you that the first man Adam was formed from the dust dust is not white and the Bible says that Jesus is the second man Adam from you because I want you to know something I don't want to get any arguments with you but you wanted to say briefly was I'm gonna ask the question and that is why it is everybody's up in arms about the truth the truth of the matter that Jesus was not a European Caucasian person he was a person of color now the white people have determined what color is if you're not white then you're black so that means that Jesus Christ was all cost dr.
fellows the leading scholar in this field Wendy right Mayer is here you get to talk today Wendy you say among other things that it shouldn't matter that's the first thing I think you want to know what else would you like to share with this audience may we assume you are a good Christian person yes doesn't have your age here so I don't know if I'm like you're 28 kindly tell us what you think I really don't think it should matter I think that if you really believe that it cut changes how you feel about him then maybe you should re-evaluate your relationship with him you know it's either it doesn't matter if he's black or white because it's Aidid again and again and again in the Bible that he he walked through all the nations it didn't matter who they were he loved him regardless what upset you if his if he's portrayed is black no wouldn't know so if that would be the choice of certain congregations and within the Christian tradition that's okay with you yeah well guess who else is here my good man you get the award for humility you've said nothing here you've been very very we can only assume that you're ready to say something however you are the Reverend dr. F Brennan Jackson you are pastor the Calvary institutional Missionary Baptist Church in Gary Indiana a proud tradition there's a church that wasn't formed yesterday you've been around a while you then have I assume worshiping in your church people of all ages but you also have I would think a considerable number of seniors who work who worship in your church who happened to be african-american how am i doing right so you have to be sensitive to their feelings right and you can't come up in the eleventh hour of their life and start caring down pictures do I understand some of the challenges you faced with this or would you want to or tell us how you feel I don't face the challenge and we don't face the challenge I've never been under the assumption that God as a man as such we preach God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth on the statues of your church no I bet he's white in the pictures you know the the picture in the pool depicts him as black but everybody know that's not Jesus that's just a picture Jesus Christ is the son of the Living God show the show that there is one other thing yeah Jesus said in the book of John other sheep have I that's not of this food if a brother just wants to thank the Jesus is of color it's alright but I haven't heard nothing said here today about salvation it's all been about color in that is sacrilege I got an hour show and you come here with 12 books now right so now I'm gonna do the work of Caesar here now I'm gonna don't take me around the no no I want to challenge them all of them on your short color was Jesus Jesus was back if you living didn't exist here is the Pope of Rome prayed and his private chapel black madonna robert jump in the vatican for anyone very well woven into the polish tradition our pope is a pole and we should not be surprised that the black madonna has been worshipped by our pole alright I got it they hang on just a minute boy I'll tell you make me nervous let's take another look at Blair's film here now Jesus as you saw that opens with the crucifixion three crosses and and Blair it plays the role of the Christ and now he here he is expressing himself in contemporary times they got this guy locked up real good scared to death I mean we got chains and doors and locks and a lot of frightened white people locking up this man who in this as you would accept it in the in the manner in which Blair has written this would be a a suggestion of the second coming and he's got some of the brothers shook watch this you ask me come on brother Carlo you know Christ what no [ __ ] blackness is far more than perception Andre blackness there's also that which is inherited through ancestral lineage [Music] he's irrelevant what my skin colors light of dark I'm black because black ancestral blood flows through my veins the roots of the tree are black and the food must be black and at the master the blonde blue eyes just as you know home to do must understand my friend had my father created me from all people for all people you see I am what I am all right Blair what would you want to add to that I'd like to say it's important to note that in the film he is not imprisoned only by white people in the film he goes both ways yeah good and bad on both sides and that actor by the way Ben Brown and that scene but I think what I was saying before it manifests itself in that scene it's important to say this man was a man of color it's important and we're talking about and I agree with you sir God is a spirit but we're talking about this human being that walked the earth and for you sir here right here Christianity if you want to move that aside that's fine this film is from a Christian standpoint I'm not getting into your beliefs if you don't believe in Christ or no gentleman he had a mother and a Heavenly Father yes sir God the Catholic Church called in 325 called the first church council and they sit there and debated for 320 some years who Jesus is and they finally came out saying he's part human and divine now it's not to human expression of Jesus I was fully human and fully divine yes if it was the new many he was divine before 33 years expressed himself yeah human form yeah you know you got me to contend with here - yeah what you'll see yes was given to us that we would be able to withstand these kind of things and as far as the church being in trouble over what's being exposed here now the church has always been in trouble a church was born in trouble so this will not make a difference and if these brothers want to believe and brothers who want to believe if this will help others to believe Jesus is of color that's right with you Kareem you wanted to say it I have to break yourself this is very nice to know and he says he's a human being if he's a human being he has to have a color have any of you seen a human being walking around with green purple that he is all and he is in all regardless [Applause] with anybody saying that Jesus the colleges do not matter especially when you're looking at a people that has been demoralized degraded by using the Jesus concept as white and something we have to really look at I think so yes ma'am you wanted this I just want to find why is it that we have a problem with Jesus being black why is there a problem I mean why is it okay for him to be white all these years he has been because we have learn from we were born that the image of this man has been white why can't we put a black image in there now no the only thing that that I think that needs to be bred out here is that the issues are being confused there's a spiritual aspect of Jesus we all love him he's in our hearts ease in our soul he lives okay but there's a human aspect and I think that that's what has to be addressed you're mixing the issues and that's why you said that everything was sacrilegious to set and the other thing I understand your point but the issue is is human that spiritual you wanted to say yes I basically I'm not concern about how white folks found view Jesus Christ my concern about black people is because if you examine all civilizations they had an image the gods were in your image right we have to understand that we as black people are dominated people and as a result of that our oppressors I want I want to put dear guards and Dibble these honors right and as a result of that the reason why you find out our kids our young cheering growing up kind of project themselves or see themselves into any or anything substantial in life your point is made all right I thank you Kareem Stuart is a you are Ukraine's mother yes you are well you raised this young man to do a lot of thinking by the time he was 15 years old his own presentation here about the importance of the ethnicity of Jesus is very very compelling and shows a lot of hard work on his part and you wanted to say I just wanted to say when Cree and I pray we don't pray because Jesus is black or white what Kareem is trying to portray to you is that as a human being a way he's depicted it has an effect on our black people as young people when they look up they want to see someone that they can say that did something in their life and Kareem looked he said well mom why do we have white Jesus is what Jesus why I said no he wasn't white but the Bible depicts him as a man of color I said but from the European aspect this is the way they portrayed him because how would it look for enslaved days to have a white or black Jesus as a savior yeah yes are you there caller good to me yeah are you there caller yes I am you wanted to say I wanted to say I don't think it makes any difference right or black if Jesus in effect was black well then should the white children not have somebody to look up to as they are I mean that the black beach children do this young woman wanted to say I don't know what color Jesus was I was but I moved by Blair Underwood's film and impressed with it and Karine I hope to raise my child a screen mom has raised Kareem just to think about how we are in society and what color I don't know if it matters I don't know if Jesus was white or black but it's okay and I'm and we'll be back in just a moment dear felt one of dr. Felder's works is troubling biblical waters here is a here as a look at the Bible its scholarship its history well I'll tell you they never call you chicken wait into this Wendy briefly you wanted to say one thing that I don't want to happen from all this because this issues gonna keep getting hotter and hotter and hotter I don't want to see young kids fighting because Jesus was black or white people we need to look at ourselves and see what we collected we let everybody else do Koreans coming to our community control economics of our community right we can't even open the store and all say briefly yeah I'm very annoyed over not that not the point that Jesus would be white or black but it's just another issue again thrown into the media I'm the mother of a four-year-old child and while shopping one day he asked mommy is that man black and I said yes he is and the man practically attacked me and said that's that's what's wrong with this white world no the gentleman was wrong you are quite correct and answering truthfully your son's question and we trust that you put a positive spin as well on the answer but wouldn't a black Jesus to be at least occasionally exposed to your young child help him with his curiosity oh sure he's been he's been to a black Santa Claus and I live in a white area geography doctor filter coming yeah a good geography lesson for us all you take some people you put send one of them to the tell them to walk to Berlin see how long it takes them telev down from Jerusalem to Berlin and then tell them to walk from Jerusalem to to to Britain tell him to walk to salute to Germany and at the same time tell another person to walk to Africa that person walking to Africa from Jerusalem will get there in many many days ahead of the others we fail to realize exactly that that Palestine is exactly where it's always been and it's a tragedy that America in our higher education system continuously uses the politics of race to present distorted information which is worth against black people and for white people that's what these did he make that careful I hope Julius the second back in 1509 had the same agenda that perhaps some of the Catholic ministers had when I was growing up exclusive interview officer Ted racino was found not guilty in the LA verdict his first and only interview next Donahue Stoney the road we tried is another work by dr.
