Bryan Johnson vs 20 Skeptics | Surrounded

Rich and poor, whatever nation, it is the single thing that humans want. Nobody wants to die right now. What have you done to change those brutal conditions in society? You're a person who has literally hundreds of millions of dollars and you spend $2 million every year trying to look younger. And honestly, you look your age. Hi, my name is Brian Johnson. I've spent millions of dollars trying to reverse and slow down my biological aging. I've also swapped blood with my son. Today, I'm surrounded by 20 anti-aging skeptics. My first claim, ending death should be humanity's

number one objective. [Music] Hi, I'm Brighton. Hi, Brighton. Nice to meet you. How you doing? I'm doing well. First off, I want to say thank you so much for being here. I'm super honored to get the chance to talk to you. Uh, I hope this can be an opportunity where I can learn, where you can learn, and where we can teach the audience something. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, but I also don't want to misconrue your words. So, why do you think ending death should be humanity's top priority? Because I think this moment

we live in is really special. We are giving birth to super intelligence. We all know that AI is moving very quickly and we don't quite know what exactly it is, but it's big and it's fast. And so the suggestion I have is that in this moment when we're Giving birth to super intelligence that we are wise to transition our focus from a world where we value death to one where we say we are the first generation who won't die. That basically we're saying we value existence above all other things. So it's basically a contemplation of

if you're human on planet earth in this part of the galaxy what does intelligent life do when you're giving birth to super intelligence? We say existence. That is the number one thing we care about. Right. So you have a faith in AI to get us to reach the point where we can avoid death and there is no I would say there's no concrete evidence right now that we have that that we can end death. You're kind of basing that off of the empirical data and the studies regarding AI's progression. Is that correct? That's correct. Okay.

So I've heard you say before that religion is is a thing created to kind of make death okay and make the idea of death not as scary and that humans are very clever. Wouldn't you say that your faith in AI's progression to end death is kind of that same argument, that same faith just to avoid death as a whole? Yeah, it's a good point. So, what I say is that uh humans have always died. Up until this point, uh there's an end of life. And when end of life happens, people have been coming up with

reasons of why it's a good thing for hundreds of thousands of years. And so, the idea may be you'll be reincarnated. Maybe there's a heaven. may be that you will achieve immortality in what you do and you'll be remembered for for your deeds as a soldier or a entrepreneur or a poet or politician. And so people have always sought a form of immortality indeed or in this life or the afterlife. And so What I'm saying is this is actually the first time in human history where a reasonable person could say we may be the first

generation who won't die and not be left out of the room. Now you're right. There is no evidence we can actually do it. But you know some biological species like species of the jellyfish and the hydra have achieved immortality. So we know biology has solved for immortality just not in the human species but it has been solved for. Right. So kind of to shift the topic a little bit that is also based off the assumption that death is a bad thing because we don't know if death is a good thing. And I I'm not saying

you're necessarily wrong about the creations of religion but we can't kind of make that decision ourselves whether death is a good or bad thing. I would say the creation of religion, if it is based off of a fear, it's less less based off of fear of death and more based off of a fear of the unknown. And I would say that that's kind of two sides of the same coin when we're running away from death and we're trying to do everything we can to avoid death, but that's just because we don't know. What would you

say about that? Yeah, I'm saying that the reason why I would identify defeating death as humanity's number one objective is because we have embraced it as part of our daily lives. When somebody stays up late and misses their bedtime, when they eat a pint of ice cream before bed, when they get very drunk, when they smoke cigarettes, when they eat uh toxic foods, those things are a form of death. When companies that make addictive algorithms that make addictive foods, When they make those things, they're profiting off of your death. And so, what I'm saying is

we have built a world built on the profit of death and on people seeking death. That's the environment in which we're giving birth to super intelligence. That's what I'm identifying is that's the danger. We don't want to bring in our new computer companions, our new AI companions and say we are a species that values death. We want to say we are a species that values existence. Right? So I've heard you say before, I think Lester Green said this and you said this, that existence is the highest virtue. And I would argue that a positive existence

is the highest virtue. And that would mean that our top priority should then be ending suffering so that we can promote a good and enjoyable life rather than just avoiding death. Yeah. The the challenge with saying a positive existence is that your version of positive may be different than someone else's positive. And when two humans agree on their versions of a given idea, they typically kill each other, right? Or it results in very serious violence. And so don't die is actually the single thing that every human on the planet can agree to every second of

every day. Everyone agrees don't die right now. But I would argue that it's not about not dying because why people have that feeling is because there's an urgency to live tomorrow because we die. I would argue that urgency comes out of the fact that our life ends and that's why we want to continue to live is because we Have that end point and that's why tomorrow matters so much and I want to exist tomorrow. If death didn't exist then we may not have that same feeling of I want to exist tomorrow. Many people have looked

back through history and you see that there were ideas about reality of things that people wanted to do uh or justified and norms changed. For example, universal human rights uh as an example, right? Or ending of slavery. Those were ideas that people believed fervently in that time and place. Now they're gone. They're no longer part of our zeitgeist. And right now death is seen as inevitable. It's acceptable. It's even desirable for some. That is an idea that is is really going to uh be challenged in this moment. Thank you so much. Nice meeting you. Thank

you. Excuse me. Excuse me. Hey, how you doing? Good. How are you, bro? All right. So, my name is Sean. Uh I'm a philosopher and author. I know you're into the philosophy game. So, you mentioned uh the ending of slavery, the ending of some of these ideas, of some of these constructs. Correct. So, you're speaking about endings, right? And your your entire brand is don't die. So, let's say a season never ended. summer for for example then what happens what would happen conjecturually what would happen to our our planet yeah so hi Sean hi so

I'm I'm glad uh to speak to a philosopher I'm an aspiring philosopher I think you made it bro yeah this is really you look back through western thought and you say we begin with Plato and Aristotle we go through Christianity medieval times uh Renaissance enlightenment modern day scientific era there are these time periods with very big ideas like how we are and we are due for a major change in ideology as a species. And right now the thing that really runs the world is profit. We will do anything to make money. We'll do anything for

status and power. That has some negative consequences in terms of what we build and how we do it. That in the pursuit of profit, people are willing to kill themselves. They're willing to die for it. They're willing to make other people die so that they can die. We just have this culture where we pursue death with this vigor and we justify it. And so as we give birth to artificial intelligence in this moment the argument is we may want to sober up and say is this the right vibe to introduce super intelligence or should we

be open to this brand new possibility that actually we may have this possibility of being the first generation who won't die. Now we don't know what happens after. Okay. But maybe it's our our move to do that. So there's there's two things there, right? So one is that we don't know what happens after, but we have all of this passion to get to this place that we don't know what's going to happen. And that's not completely true. So we do Understand that if there are there's if there's a species that doesn't go extinct, that none

of them ever die, the planet literally becomes inhabitable. If there's bees that never die, what happens to the ecosystem? If there's a plant species that never dies, what happens to the ecosystem? So, I understand there's this idea of like, oh, we're walking into this kind of glorious unknown where all of the ideas are at our fingertips. We've actually seen some of the evidence and some of the uh the measurements, I guess you can say, as to what happens when a species doesn't continue to perish, to turn over. Part of like the way that the planet

works, right, is the turnover. Summer becomes another season, winter becomes another season. Everything's in transformation, I guess. What do you say about that? When you think about the fact that let's say don't die becomes this worldwide thing and no one wants to die, how does that not cause an inhability issue with our planet and our environment? Yeah, you make a great point and I think we've kind of been on this trajectory for a while where when we created vaccines, we started figuring out can we actually buttress disease. When we figured out how to fight cancer,

can you actually stop these accelerating diseases? So we've started to have the ability to engineer biology and our outside world with increasing precision, right? And that opens up all these possibilities to say, well, if we're trying to just cure, you know, solve not dying today, can we solve for not dying tomorrow and the next day? So this is Not an argument that we know what's going to happen over the next few hundred years is just to say that right now this is potentially an existential moment for the human race. Okay? And we may want to

do a vibe check. Are we all so certain about this die thing? we may want to sober up and say actually what we really value is we just want to hang tight and see what happens as we enter this new era of being human and hanging tight and and seeing what the new era is going to be is one thing a t-shirt that says don't die and and don't die today is different than immortality yes I'm sure you you'd agree with that right and we all know that you're you have the means to kind of

buy into this idea and this concept a little more deeply than probably the average person I've heard you mention the five core power laws and how that's kind of what's accessible to everyone. And what I'm kind of what I'm gathering is that there's going to be super wealthy people that can buy into the degree that you can and everyone else gets a little bit healthier, I guess. What's how would you Yeah. What I'm trying to do is um I used to eat fast food, right? And I did it because it was just a thing we

did in our culture and fast food is really bad for you. And then I learned that these companies use the very best science to actually make you addicted. Mhm. And so what I'm arguing is it's not for a few rich people. This is society is systematically killing itself. Okay. And I think that's a bad thing for everybody. Society is systematically killing itself and that's a bad thing for everyone. What do you feel about sovereignty and personal choice? Appreciate you. Thank you. Hi Brian. My name is Chelsea Gods and I sit across from you today. I

think I'm going to say the thing that a lot of people in the circle are thinking. It's easy when you're rich to care about not dying. Most people spend all day every day also caring about not dying because they're living paycheck to paycheck. 60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Being poor is the story of humanity across the whole globe. I think listening to a man who doesn't know what it's like, how he's going to make rent next month, that to some of us, it feels pretty strange to hear you tell us that we're not

focused on being alive. I think every person here is struggling to be alive every single day. I think most people in this country are struggling to be alive every single day. And when they smoke a cigarette, it's not about whether they want to die. It's about enjoying that moment. I'm talking to a man who publicly has said that you eat pured food every day and you're telling me, a normal human being who is like everyone else, struggling financially and whatnot, how I should be living my life. And I think there's something that's really disconnected about

that. I also think That it's really false of you to claim that people are focusing their life on dying when really all of us are focusing on surviving. That's why we're here. Every one of us is here today because we're surviving. We don't go to McDonald's and think, "Oh, this is killing me." We go to McDonald's because we don't have enough time in the day to make dinner. Because we can't afford to go to the grocery store and buy a $20 steak because we can't shop at Airwan and get $40 of strawberries. You know, so

I think a lot of us are here wondering what does you, a person who's rich, who doesn't know what struggle is like and who also talks about the fact that you use your own son's blood have to add to us as humanity. Yeah. Hi, Chelsea. Hey. Yeah. I I grew up uh with four other siblings, single mom. My mother made my clothes uh because we didn't have enough money for her to buy clothes for me. I went to school and I got made fun of because my clothes didn't fit and they were awkward. Uh, I

didn't have money my entire life. Uh, I became an entrepreneur. I struggled for 14 years with no money whatsoever. So, I understand what it feels like to have no money. I even know what it feels like to be poor. So, I've been through that. I also was chronically depressed for 10 years. I wanted to commit suicide desperately. I really would have commit committed suicide had it not been for my three kids. I felt like I had a responsibility to them. So, I understand struggle. I understand pain. I was, you know, 50 pounds overweight. I was

in a terrible shape. And so I understand what it's like to be that way. My argument is not to criticize you or anyone else. What I'm arguing is that companies have built their products to make you addicted and to make you ill. That's That's the core thing I'm trying to say is that the most powerful economic engine in all of history, the American uh economic engine has pointed itself at creating addictive foods and phones and social media and porn and junk food. Do you not think that you're addicted to trying to stay alive? Do you

not think that that's an addiction? Do you think not doing face fat, like fat injections in your face, constantly doing plastic surgery, do you not see that as an addiction yourself? Uh, no. I view I view it as a pursuit in we're trying to figure out how so if I change the name of my addictions to a pursuit then maybe you'll think that it's socially acceptable. Uh I think that we share something in common that neither one of us wants to die in this moment. I mean not today but sometime hopefully you know hopefully. Yeah.

And I think that a lot of people would change their opinion and want to exist if the conditions of society were not so brutal. It's not fair for What have you done to change those brutal conditions in society? You're a person who has literally hundreds of millions of dollars and you spend $2 million every year trying to look younger and honestly you look your age. Like that's the reality. And I'm not even the first person to say that. So what are you doing to make humanity better really other than pursuing your own vanity? Yeah. Well,

I share everything I learn from all the scientific evidence with everybody for free. But it's scientific evidence from your own body, right? So the study isn't terribly useful to the general population because a black woman isn't going to have the same biometrics as a 48-year-old white man. So, I mean, in some ways, it's kind of a selfish pursuit that you're trying to make it seem like it's altruistic. I feel like that's the disingenuous part of this conversation is that you're coming at it from an argument of altruism, but I see it, and I think a

lot of people in this room today see it as selfishness and greed to try and hold on to life as much as you can. So much so, that you bragged about using your teenage son's blood, which I have to tell you, history is not going to be kind about that. Nobody thinks about that woman in the Turkish royalty who bathed in handmaiden's blood and has a positive feeling about that. I don't think anyone is going to read about you in the future and be like, "Oh, wasn't that great? Wasn't that awesome that Brian Johnson used

his own teenage son's blood to make himself younger?" No one's going to feel that way. So, two things. One is the evidence is based upon population level evidence. It's not on Brian Johnson. It's not 48-year-old males. It's population level evidence where you can make conclusions like 7 to 8 hours a night of sleep is good for. And that's something that rich people get to do and poor people don't get to do. Do you think rich people are working overnight shifts? They're not. Yeah. You need to give me a little space to respond. Sure. Of course.

Okay. So, the other thing you were saying about my son's blood. So, the reason that came about is my father is now in his early 70s. He has cognitive decline. He called me one day and he said, "Brian, I'm suffering that I can't now complete basic work projects. I'm Losing my mind and I'm terrified. I said, "Dad, my team and I are doing research on cognitive decline. There's a new therapy of change exchanging plasma. If it would be helpful to you, I'd be happy to do this." So, I did the plasma exchange for my dad

because he's losing his mind. Now, my son said, "Hey, Brian, dad, if you're doing this, I'm happy to do it, too. We'll make it a trigenerational thing." It wasn't me and my son. It was me doing it for my father. The press, of course, makes headlines of that and they make you believe that I'm a nefarious actor. That's not the case. But it's not really just the press doing that because you walked into this room and that was one of the very first things you said about yourself. You wore it like a badge of honor.

And I think that you do that because it's controversial. To sit there and say that that label is given to you by the press is a little bit disingenuous because you gave that label to yourself and you did it to be shocking. You did it to make headlines yourself. So to put that onto the press I actually think is really disingenuous. Thanks. Hi Brianna. Hi, Brianna. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, Brian. So, there's a few things that you've said. I just would like to touch on what the first thing is. Uh, your

focus about the industry. Um, focusing on death. I do agree with a previous debater that the focus on living is also taking away from any true living. Um, as a human, I value the experiences I have with my friends, With my partners. Um, even the experiences of lessons learned in life, which sometimes do include fast food, sometimes do include those things that you were doing to your body and damaged yourself. However, looking back, I can't see where it is that you yourself have found this fixation that death is the total destruction. We as humans have

always kind of chose destruction. And then we value life through that. And I wonder what your position is when I bring these points to you. I think under, you know, when death is inevitable, people yolo their way to death, you know, like I might as well then do the following things, the following debaucherous things because it makes me feel something. And that's been something we've done. We've basically made these debaucherous acts of death virtues where it's seen as a positive thing in someone's life. And so an accusation I get all the time is like, "Brian,

you're not living." And why am I not living? Because I'm not staying up late and I'm not drinking alcohol and I'm not smoking. I'm not eating fast food. And they're like, "You're not living. You're missing out on life." Right? And I, you know, try to explain that that's really a misconception that we all know once you eat a fast food meal, you feel terrible. No one's winning and doing that. And so I'm saying that right now, this is a special moment. If we weren't giving birth to super intelligence, if that wasn't some kind of things

happening in the moment, I'd say like, sure, like, do your thing, whatever. This moment is special. And when we're bringing that intelligence into the world, when we value death, we're sending the wrong Signals as a species. We treat planet Earth the same way we treat our bodies. So we are a species that that has embraced and seeks after death and it ruins our health, our individual health, our societal health. I mean for example, you look at the current number of people on anti-depressants or anti-anxiety meds. You look at people who are lonely, the suicide rates.

We are a sick society. And that to me is what people are starting to say. let's celebrate that that's life and I'm saying that is not life like this is not a good situation everyone's in pain and suffering so let's let's address that so I absolutely agree with you actually however what I do see again is that through these things of comfort as you've kind of called them right we do that because we're still living in between those times those bursts of moments that we have with people we've chosen to drink yes do I agree

that that's good no I'm like don't do it you don't feel good the next day. But the connection is how we joke about that, how we all kind of iron sharpens iron and we learn from that. We pass those lessons on and we continue to grow as a society. One thing that you mentioned was nature. I love that because I really struggled through your uh conversation earlier with a prior debater about life and the philosophical points of it. Um polarity is a science that we adhere to. um there has to be polarity in this process.

I think it was uh described more as like a seasonal right however for me it's the polarity without death You don't know life and if we only have life continuing that process such as you mentioned the earth would be interrupted I think that that is something that is not worth the unmeasurable time that we would need to even determine whether that's something that we can do I also feel that it thank you My next claim is that we may be the first generation who won't die. How you doing? Wonderful. Wonderful. Wonderful. Nice to finally meet

you. Likewise. So, uh, let's start it off by saying, um, I'm glad that you chose life. You were trying to unal alive yourself before, right? That's right. What was the purpose of that? What What was going on psychologically that got you to that point? Yeah, I meant I wasn't sleeping. I was overweight. I was stressed out of my mind. I was up all night with my kids. Uh I was leaving my born religion. I was having challenges with my partner. Like life was just falling apart. I had no money. I was in debt. I just

it was a really challenging moment and I didn't know where to go to find hope. So what hope what what hope did you find? because I heard that you uh actually had a conversation with a interviewer that you stated that a book that you read by Robert what was his last name? Oh uh Albert Kamu Albert Kamu. Yeah the philosopher. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. So what was it in his book that gave you the hope again that faith? Uh he basically said that he explored all of existential philosophy and he said there really is no

meaning to life that once you realize that it's just play. like you just you're happy that you exist and the fact that we exist, let's just make the most of it, right? And I felt relieved that I didn't need to have an answer or a reason that I I find myself conscious. I don't know why. It's kind of a weird experience, but you know, trying to do my very best with what I have. Conscious. So with your consciousness, you decided to live. Yes. Right. So you still found a meaning though, right? Yes. That's a good

point. And I guess like this is the thing that uh we are a a species that loves meaning and purpose and um at that moment I didn't really have a purpose or meaning and it was trying to find reconciliation that just being alive is okay. Do you believe that uh the purpose was already there you just needed to tap in? Yeah. I think purpose is probably abundant that we can all find it and it drives us but do you believe in choice? I do. So do you believe people have the choice to not want to

live too? Yes. And they can choose that. Yes. So what do you do about those people? Give them choice. Give them a choice. So if they want to, let's say they were in your position and they wanted to to live more, what do you say about them? I mean to to not live more, what do you say about them? That's their choice. Do you believe that a person could also perish and a new entity can grow and evolve as well? Is the information that you're getting? So what let's just say we're living and um if

we continue to keep living, there's no new information. Do you believe that? Sure. Okay. So, with there's the new information, don't you think that something eventually needs to perish so something new can grow? Uh, not always. Yeah. I think that Yeah. I think that um we are in this new era where we will be able to extend our lifespans to degrees which would maybe surprise us and that when that happens, we will all just take it day by day and and our norms will evolve and we'll naturally get accustomed to 100 year lifespans, 150, 200.

That's a possibility. Not saying it's guaranteed, but Well, here's the thing. You're 498. Uh 48. 48. I'm 41. Yeah. Right. I don't look it right. You look great. Good job. So, I Thank you. I smoke. I don't drink no more. I barely sleep. Yeah. Like, what? What? Yeah. Suggestions cuz I'm okay. You all right? Yeah. Okay. I'm Matt. Okay. Good to see you, man. Hey man, how you doing? Aiden, good to meet you. That was a powerful takeoff. I appreciate it. Must be doing something. Track or something. No. Yeah. Um, not tracking my health unfortunately.

But, um, so I would before I get into what I disagree with you about your claim on, I would like for you to elaborate. What do you mean by or actually I would hypothesize that the reason you say we may be the first generation does not exist is kind of what you talked about a little previously. Yeah. Um, on super intelligence. Is that kind of accurate or do you think that there's another reason that humanity would be able to defeat death in this generation? That's right. Yeah, I think artificial intelligence will be the key. Yes.

Okay. So, two thing three things off the top of my head. The first is I don't actually think that science is progressing at the rate at which you would say that it is. Um the second is I don't think that not dying is a good will to live. meaning I think that when you start to say my life's purpose is to keep living then you lose your will to live. But I'll go a little bit into the first one first. The first reason that I don't think science is progressing as fast as we say it

is and I don't think that super intelligence um will play into a role of this. But if you look at for example Health trends like you would be a vegan right? Is that correct? Um I don't yeah I don't actually subscribe to that that word. Okay. I follow you. Tell me about your diet. What do you eat? Uh, a lot of, uh, legumes, extravirgin olive oil, berries, nuts, seeds, what do you think about the keto diet, for example? Great. Just, you know, anyone can do anything they want. I mean, anyone can do anything they want.

Just measure your bioarkers and make sure your body's happy. But I don't I don't subscribe to the idea of carnivore versus vegan or keto versus paleo. I think they're they're too abstract. The more re relevant thing is to eat what you want, measure your body, and see if your body's happy. So okay then we don't necessarily have to talk about diet but the rate at which science is progressing if you look at and this is the case for not just health this is the case for a lot of different areas of study is that there

is so much that we have yet to discover I'll give you an example I would probably say that for most people um and I think that we can probably agree on this like not eating um fruits vegetables legumes for example would probably not be the best like if you were just to eat ground beef all day would that be probably like for the 90% of the population that probably wouldn't be a good health choice right you know again I'm impartial so people can do whatever they want I'll give you an example okay if you look

at lots of health trends from a couple of years back you know like six seven years ago you had the or even 10 years ago you had like the um The keto diet you had lots of these different diets but also studies are constantly being published so and it's very difficult to say how much of science we have yet to explore I did plug this to like JPT the other day and they said like 80 to 90% of science has yet to be discovered. That's right. So if you're coming from the mind of we will

be the first generation not to die but we've only explored 10% of what is actually going to keep you healthy. How do you know that 10 years from now what you're doing for your regimen is going to be completely detrimental? Yeah. How exciting is that? What do you mean? It's great. Right. It means we have this frontier of new knowledge that we're about to discover. I mean, nothing would make me happier. This is why this moment is so exciting. It's why it's why I think it warrants suspending all of our ideas is we stand on

the precipice of this amazing new era where we may discover all these things which are dramatically going to improve our health. So take for example the drug ripomiasin. We I believe you were taking ripomosinas. Was that okay? So how long are you taking that for? Five years. Okay. And why'd you stop taking it? uh the side effect profile and some new evidence that came out. Okay. That new evidence having to do with like cholesterol and ulcers etc. Right. Uh usually methylation clocks to look at speed of aging. Right. Exactly. So how do you know that

everything that you're doing right now in your regimen is not going to be completely different from 20 years ago for sorry 20 years from now. I don't think that we will be able to say that with certainty. And so maybe you could make the claim that five generations from now we might be able to extend our health maybe to 120 200 years. I don't even think that's possible, but I think that's an entirely different claim. I think you're right. I don't think Okay. Awesome. Thanks. Did you just jump? I did. I did track. Good to

see you. Pleasure to meet you. And honestly, it's an honor and pleasure to connect with you in person. I first watched your docu couple years ago when it came out. I even took screenshots of everything you were doing and I was like, what is this guy doing? It really opened my mind to what death could be versus just what the Bible says. Um, I want to talk more about the structure of what world we'd have to live in in order for this to be doable. Um, is this something that you're saying everyone should be doing

or is this just a choice you have blueprint if you want to live longer, you know, or if you don't, you can just keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. I think it's kind of like when the United States of America became a country, we said uh we like the idea of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It was this new idea of like how does a society build itself? And what I'm saying now is it's kind of like a rebirth for the human race. What does It mean to exist? What do we value? What

do we do? And I'm saying that this is a moment where we can have a new imagination about our existence we've never had before. And that is that we may be the first generation who won't die. And now when that happens, it causes us to reflect on everything we do in our lives now. Okay? And so, you know, it's really like a reflective moment. I'm just saying it's really this new opening and it's a new way to think about ourselves. Okay? So, I come from the personal training, strength and conditioning world. I tell my clients

it's all about health span, longevity. You want to have proper nutrition, proper sleep, you want to uh resistance train as well. Those are all great. But if we all to live forever, how does then that look like populationwise? like is everyone just going to the population is just going to increase increase. We can barely even take care of the planet we live in. We're looking at living on Mars. How would we then share how would we what is your perspective in that world and also religion? You know 85% of the world is religious Christianity, Buddhism,

Islam. Um and death is such a big cornerstone of that. I know you were Mormon as well and you ran away from that. So what are your p what are your thoughts on I guess the structure of that when most of the world is so around death? Yeah. I mean um first is I'm not arguing for immortality. I'm arguing for don't die. I'm arguing that we say existence is the highest virtue and that we build society according to that. Two is that oftentimes the problems we think are problems are not the problems that actually become

the problems. So for example in New York horses were the primary mode of transportation and there was horse manure all over New York. goes in the Hudson River is on the streets. It was such a gigantic problem, people were panicking. They said, "What do we do to solve this problem?" So Henry Ford built a model Model T. Then cars came and horse manure went away because horses went away. So horse manure was not actually a problem because the Model T solved that problem. Now the Model T created other problems. We have roads and pollution. So

sometimes the things we think are going to be the biggest challenges turn out to not be the challenge. Now I don't know what's going to happen to the population. Now we have a challenge where we have a population collapse. So we're actually on the opposite side of that. Our fertility markers have dropped by 50% over the past 50 years. So if anything, we have a really serious worry about our population. So it just like this comes and goes. Sometimes we are worried on one side of the other. But this is really a moment where I'm

saying that as as much as we can, we want to embrace existence. That's the thing that's most precious for everybody. Okay. Another question. Are you happy? I've I've never been happier in my entire life. And that is a genuine answer. And this is what I'm I I really want to like be with you on this. Like I wish somebody would have been in my life to say, "Let me give you some basic tips on how to achieve good sleep, how to avoid bad foods, like how to have the willpower to these things." I didn't have

that in my life. And that's really the role I'm trying to play in people's lives is like the good friend that is there to encourage them to make good life choices. Got it. Thank you. Pleasure to meet you. Good to see you. Alec. Hi, Alec. I'm pretty good. So, I could be getting over my head talking about this, but um I I saw that you you had some data where you were like, I have like the lungs of a 30 something year old or heart of a 20, right? Um can you elaborate first on with

that specific thing that I'm talking about? Yeah. So the idea is that if you have a 90-year-old person next to a 10-year-old person, you know who's 90 and who's 10. Sure. Based upon the quality of their skin and you like their general mobility and so there's an idea of biological age and chronological age. And so for example, I'm 48 but my left ear is age 64. Why your left ear? Is that just a example or Example? Yeah, exactly. So I have mild to moderate hearing loss in my left ear because I listened to loud music

as a kid and I also shot guns without hearing protection. Right. And so that dramatically ages my left ear. So everything I talk about, I'm trying to say like if you do blank, you know, like poor sleep or eat bad food or uh doom scroll right before bed, yeah, it could affect certain things. Yeah, exactly. It accelerates aging in the body. So I can agree with you on every single body part except for the brain. I don't think you said we're going to have the uh first person's uh we're the first generation where we're going

to live forever or there could be someone here that would live forever. I don't I don't agree with that because I don't think the science is there to either replace a brain, right? Especially because I think I think out of I'm not a religious person. I don't think you are either. Uh I I think the brain is what makes us who we are, not our soul. I don't know. I if you needed a brain transplant, you I don't think we can do that. We can't take your brain and put it somewhere. But even if we

did, that's a whole Is that actually Brian? Is it not? Um, so how are you going to stop the brain from like deteriorating? Like I don't think you can do that. There is no science that can do that. Yeah, your point is valid and that is correct. On current science, we do not know how to do that. Also, throughout history, history is a story of impossible things becoming possible. Okay. And so, while we can't see a path now, I don't rule it out that we may find a path to be able to uh restore brain

capacity or reverse the aging of the Brain. Now, we don't know again how to do it, but I think it's worth us saying this is really important. we should try. I think there's a difference between saying it's really important and we should try versus oh yeah they're like it's it is you know like I know the claim technically said there maybe. So you're kind of you're kind of leaving yourself a little wiggle room but I would make my claim would be it's not. I know that technology is always advancing but I mean if like if

my brain got separated the spinal cord and the brain like you couldn't possibly reconnect that in a way where it would work. Um, so once your brain goes, I think you're done. Um, and I don't I mean, as far as I know, there's no way to stop a brain from aging. Yeah. And your voice is good. Criticism is good. And that's how science moves forward. And so there's going to be people who don't believe it and there are people who try to do it. And there's going to be the continuence. So what I'm saying is

whether we believe it or not, science is going to move forward. And it may actually do it. May actually do it. I mean, I I guess I can't really say anything else, but I mean like, yeah, whatever. All right. Well, yeah. Thanks. All right. So, the claim is we might be the first generation to not die. Yeah. I would assert that we are already late to the party. So, you did a lot of time in the church. It's not unlike every other church. I believe that all religions have something in common and where they meet

in the middle is where we should be meeting in the middle. Now, one thing that all religions have are legit texts pre flood, pre great flood Of humans living forever or at least thousands of years. For instance, the the Samrian kings list. They have guys ruling for over 40,000 years. So, how do we explain that? Right. I I don't have the answer. And like the last guy said, science isn't there. Yeah. Right. This is your pursuit. Yeah. Is would you say immortality or living longer? Like how would you like specifically define your pursuit? I'm saying

something really simple, right? I'm saying that under any normal circumstance on planet Earth, you yolo your way to whatever game you're playing, right? Whether you're building a business, whether you're a politician, whether you're a parent, like whatever you do, I'm saying right now is different in all times of history. We are giving birth to super intelligence, a form of intelligence that exceeds our capacity to understand. When that happens, all things change and that includes our possibilities. M that includes the possibility that we may not be we may not die. And so I'm saying this is

the moment where we check ourselves to say this moment may be different. So may not die physically in the body. Is that what you're saying? That's right. But you're saying that we would be potentially the first generation to do that. Yes. But I'm saying every culture has already proven you wrong. Yeah. Except for they're not here, right? They're not here. They're not here. And I would assert that the reason why they're not here is that death is actually earned through a life well-lived. Uhhuh. That I think that I believe that death is actually a promotion

in life. Yeah. And that this life here to assert that we should um attempt to stay here indefinitely is to kind of stay in the spiritual sandbox and not choose to go to the next grade. And that's great. All I'm suggesting is you procrastinate. Explain that. Procrastinate death, right? Like what's the rush, right? I get it. Well, nobody wants to die in this moment. Exactly. And I would I would assert that since we don't don't die in this moment, we haven't earned our death and that we all have a purpose here. And I believe that

yours is is honest and I like what you're doing and I respect it. And if you weren't doing it, We all wouldn't be here today. So, I do appreciate that with the rhetoric of the claim, there's already been generations that have lived forever. And you know why they're not here? I think they decided it was a bad idea to live forever. It was a bad idea. We have overpopulation. How do you deal with that? There's not enough resources. Things are finite. And these meat bags that we're walking around in Yeah. They rot, you know. Yeah.

But you know what doesn't rot? Yeah, the pilot. Yeah, we don't rot. Immortality comes through the echo of a life well-lived. And I commend you for years. And you as well, friend. Wishing you the best on that. Absolutely. My next claim is that no one should ever eat fast food. Hi, Brian. It's me, Chelsea Gods again. Obviously, I didn't know this about us. It turns out we actually have something more in common than I thought, which is that we're both billionaires. Just kidding. I'm not. Uh, it's that we're both ex Mormons. So, I do think

that's really funny because I recognize a lot of ex Mormon tendencies in you because moderation is a huge part of that religion. So, it's funny that I feel like you haven't that you took one thing and you changed it into, you know, being obsessed with your health. The claim that nobody Should ever eat fast food is an easy claim to make when groceries are affordable to you. The claim that you can never eat fast food is an easy claim to make when you're not working double shifts, when you're not working overnight. The reality is the

reason why people eat fast food is not just because they like it. It's because their lifestyle doesn't lend to the ability to spend time either purchasing expensive healthy food or preparing the food themselves because time is such a constraint in modern society. I think that a lot of the things that you claim, as much as you try and sound egalitarian, generally are for the wealthy. I think not eating fast food is a habit that wealthy people have. We're here in LA. No one who lives in Beverly Hills is eating fast food, but all the normal

people who are showing up to construction sites every day, they are because that's what real life looks like. And I think that there's something very classist about a rich person telling a bunch of regular people,"Well, you guys, you shouldn't have fast food." Well, that's easy for you to say when you always can have food on your table. That's an easy claim when you always have food on your table. So, what do you say about that? That I'm I'm saying that this is a classist claim. So, I'm saying that um fast food companies have used the

best science to create the perfectly Addictive food with the right amount of fats, proteins, and sugars. It hits a peak dopamine moment in the brain. So, they are addicting people to their food. It is a methodical process and when people eat that, they get themselves in a vicious cycle. So, you think people are addicted to Subway? Yeah. So just give me a give me a beat to explain this concept. Um and so what happens is people get in this vicious cycle of addiction and I think that's bad. And so as a as a starting principle

this is let's just put aside for a moment uh a person's circumstances. It is that's easy for you to say it it is not good for society to poison its people. It's not good to consume poison. Now if we establish that as a baseline the next step becomes then how do we feed ourselves? What are our norms? I agree with you that is a very challenging problem. Again I have been in this situation. I have been poor a substantial portion of my life without the ability. So this is my my I just made money very

recently in my life. I was poor for most my life. So the thing you're saying I get it. I've been there. I've done it. So what's your solution then? Yeah, you it you can actually buy food. You can actually prepare food. You can take food with you. It is not. So you are suggesting that people who have a very limited constraint on time can do the things that you can do. And again, I profer that that is just simply not the case. It's not the thing. So I'm not suggesting people can do what I do.

What I'm saying is as a society, we should stop demanding poison and we should punish the companies who are who are giving us poison. It it makes everyone worse. Okay, I'm going to be real here. I actually love fast food. In fact, I eat it probably at least once every two weeks. I spent a significant portion of my adult life as a vegetarian. So, a lot of my time from the ages of 20 to age 37 were spent limiting what kind of food I put into my body. And I can tell you that as a

person who no longer is a vegetarian and no longer limits my diet, I'm happier when I'm not constantly thinking about food all the time, I am more satisfied in my existence. I think encouraging people to spend a significant portion of their time being stressed about their diet is actually counterintuitive to what you claim to be a proponent for, which is life. Because I think constantly being worried about every single thing that we put in our bodies can actually have really negative impacts on our psyche and our well-being. And as a person who again spent 17

years reading the ingredients of everything, pouring over what was in a package that I was eating, I can tell you that the freedom that I feel not having to think about that is actually wonderful. And do I like fast food? Hell yeah, I do. Do I eat it all the time? No. I think that moderation is an important part of life. So, not only do I think that there's like a classist part of this, I also think there's a enjoyment part of this. And in some Ways, I I know that you've been told by other

people that you don't live your life, and I kind of agree. I think you spend most your life being worried about a lot of things. I think you wake up in the morning being worried about being old. You wake up in the morning being worried about what you put in your body. You puree food in a you puree your food and eat it like a baby. And people don't want to do that. You know what I do want to do, though? Sometimes eat a freaking chicken sandwich from the chick from the drive-thru. I just thinking

about your food all the time is negative. Do you think it's negative? So, first I hope it feels good to vent. I don't think I'm venting. I think that I'm like being direct. I I think uh I mean you are being direct. Uh I understand your anger. Uh I I don't think I'm being angry. I think that that's like you saying that because I'm a direct and loud woman. I think that's actually a really rude generalization. Okay. Um what I'm saying is I have been in those circumstances and I don't buy the hypothesis that eating

poison makes you happy. I don't think it makes the body happy. I think if you were to actually measure the body, I think the body would complain that it doesn't like getting those kinds of foods in its body. I think this is Hi, Brian. Hi. How are you? Good. How are you? I'm Titania. Hi Tiana. So, I wanted to know um what your like solution is because I feel like it's been being beat around the bush. Like in An ideal world, we all have access to healthy maybe even organic food, but just the basic food

that it's nutritious to our bodies and isn't, you know, all over that's like poisoning us. But like what is the solution for the everyday people working, you know, just regular jobs cuz we don't have livable wages really anywhere in the United States. So I would just like to act an actual answer to like what would the solution be? Is it to not eat or is it too like poison ourselves? that's the term you've used and eating food that's accessible to us based on our budget and means like what would your solution be to that? I

love this question. Uh so what I think we should do is we should stop asking companies to make poison that we consume. So let's just stop eating the food. If we stop eating it they will want to make money by making food that's better. So I'm saying that I understand the limitations we have as you know individually in our lives but we the way we fix it is not by eating more poison. The way we fix it is we stop it and we say companies I'm not going to buy your poison. You need to make

something that's better for me. So it's really a societal shift because you can't just I can't you can't just say hey person with two jobs and no money like that's a very challenging situation. We have to change societal norms. So it really is from the ground up we have to say we don't want to eat poison. We don't want to feed our kids poison. We don't want to feed our adult our parents poison. Like it sucks to be diseased and to feel bad. Let's stop it. So I'm really I'm trying to argue that we want

to change this on a societal level. Okay. So in the interim what do we do? Because I hear I agree with you but the reality is we are not going to all boycott McDonald's like today. What if we did? Okay. But we're not. Yeah. But but I'm saying what it's a it's a domino effect like you and your friends and and your you have children or your parents but they're not because what are we going to eat instead like Burger King? No. So I think again this is not an easy solution and life is not

easy. This is not a situation where like all the answers are right there in front of us. Yeah. But I definitely know I've been through this myself, right? Like I've been the same circumstance. You can try your very best to eat as well as you can, right? And sometimes it's not perfect and sometimes you have to make compromises. But I'm saying that if we want these things to change, we all need to take a stand together. We need to stop asking for this to be made. I feel like that's a big like solution and I'm

asking for like an interim solution to like something people maybe can take away that are watching this and are you saying you don't have that solution? No, I'm saying that. Yeah. So I would say try to create a weekly schedule. So if you can budget for example an hour of your entire week, it could be on a Saturday or Sunday and try to do meal prep for that week. Try to buy some basic foods and you can even do something lower cost like something like Potatoes or something that is actually in a budget you can

afford and try to be on some kind of of reasonable diet and not consume fast food. But I think that it actually can be done. You can take reasonable steps to try to not participate in fast food. And is this all during our eight hours of sleep we have to make time for too? It could it could be seven as well while we're working, you know, to make money for like rent and not being paid livable wages. I'm just trying to get there with you and I'm not there. I'm with you. So you I think

you can have some basic things. For example, if you just if we could say it's not a good idea to scroll before bed. It's not a good idea to eat right before bed. What about people that are influencers that like, you know, they might have like work in another time zone and they have to scroll right before bed because they got to get their trying to get their eight hours you're talking about or maybe just four or five for the normal person, at least people I know. Like, are you saying that they should just not

that like impacts their work? Yeah. I'm saying there are things within everyone's control to make small steps on a daily basis to to say no to the things that make them a lesser person. You don't no one's going to force a lesser person. No one's going to eat Can you elaborate on that? Yeah. So, when you consume a diet of sugar, uh even you eat a fast food diet, You're less able cognitively. You have lower reaction times. You have lower willpower. It makes you a person that's not as robust in the world. So it's actually

a form of self harm and I don't want that to happen. Self harm. Okay. Yep. And so there are definitely people have the ability to make these decisions in their life like small things. This is I'm not trying I'm not blaming the person. I'm blaming systems. I'm saying the systems we have in society suck. They are killing people and and they're man-made. And the way we have to change that is we have to stop participating in those systems. This is not me blaming people. Mhm. I I'm not pointing the finger. I'm saying that we are

stuck in a system, but we actually are endorsing the system by participating in it. Okay. So, thank you, Brian. Thank you. Brian. Hey, how are you? Good. How are you? Good to see you. So, uh I'm a professional fitness trainer and nutritionist. Uh originally I'm from Ukraine. So in my country food is much better than in US but the lifespan is less than know 8 years less. So don't you think that uh healthc care is the More important than uh the fast food and the any other thing that connecting with that? Yeah, I mean I

think we we all value healthcare when something bad happens to us and we need help. I think we all value it in that regard. Uh when we're trying to solve something like disease, some of that can be prevented by having good healthy choices, healthy life choices. And so in the US for example, our system is primarily sick care, right? You go there and you report your symptoms, you have some kind of diagnosis and you're treated with drugs or something else. Rarely do doctors talk about sleep or exercise or diet, right? It's typically a drug-based solution.

And so our in the US, our system is really not set up to encourage active healthy lifestyles. I think that's where it falls down is it's good to help you not die right now, but it's really bad to help you live for a long time. So uh I do believe you watched this movie live to 100 secrets of the blue zone and one important thing that connected all these people from a different part of the world it's uh social connection. So don't you think it's eating the burger with the friends at 2 a.m. is way

better than sitting in the couch alone and eating the salad. Yeah. At what time is the salad? It doesn't matter. Yeah. Kind of healthy salad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Social connection is it's like a one of the superpowers of a wonderful life. I agree with that. Yeah. And so this is this goes back to this idea that um I don't think there's any law of physics that says you can only connect with your friends at 2 am when you're both intoxicated. You know, like you can definitely connect in the morning, you can connect in the evenings.

And so again, these are really products of our cultural norms today. They don't have to be true. Like we can change our schedule. For example, we do morning dance parties with friends. They're just as fun as 10 p.m. dance parties. So you can actually change norms and think about these differently. It's just that we I think we feel stuck in the way things are with expectations from our friends and then we if some like when I don't participate in those things, right, the accusation is I don't live life. Uh so it's I think we can

live lives that are healthy and still like have reasonable health habits. So I think fast food isn't a problem. Relationship with the food is. Yeah. So uh we have a bunch of research and experiments when the people eat fast food and they stay in a calorie deficit and they decrease the body fat percentage and the cholesterol level. Does it mean it's a fast food isn't bad? Mhm. What do you think? Yeah, I think if you look at the ingredients of fast food, there's a lot of evidence to suggest it really could be very harmful. In

fact, it could potentially contribute to some of the worst human diseases. And so, it is I don't think it's a good idea under any circumstance to eat fast food. And I think it's something we should collectively agree as a society we don't want anymore. Yeah, thanks. Hey, how you doing? Jordan, nice to meet you, Jordan. So, my my viewpoint on all this I've been hearing is it sounds like a a a western problem. Um, I don't think these problems happen in the east because in America and western countries were built on capitalism and the whole

idea of capitalism is to extract and pretty much you got to put down. So for me to make money, I got to pick on the weak. So I don't think it's a individual problem. And I think that's what you're making it. It it it sounds like how the companies say recycling, you got to put that's not our problem. That's the company's problem. And I think when you make it an individual problem, it makes it seem like you don't care about the humans. You know what I mean? So how do you go attack the legislators? How

do you go against the companies? How? because that's what we have to change if you want to see our relationship with food change. Yeah. Um, one thing I had CO a couple years ago and I lost my taste. That's when I realized that as Americans, we have a horrible relationship with food. It's all glutton. Yes. Um, so that is an American thing. They may not be doing that in East Africa. Yeah. You know, um, so that's where I'm coming from. Yeah. I love your perspective and I completely agree with you and I want to be

very clear. I'm not pointing the finger at you. I promise. Yeah. And I don't think you are, you know, but I'm just saying with the rhetoric, it's not you're not saying we have to fix the companies, right? Because everything you've been saying is, okay, you have to change your diet. Now, I agree, you know, fast food, it but there's moderation, right? Cuz if I eat fresh steak every day, that's not good. If I eat nothing but berries every day, that's not good. If I eat nothing but water every day, that's not good. Yeah. So, you

have to have balance and moderation. Yeah. So, yeah. I guess what I'm what I'm trying to highlight is like you said, profit is the most important part of American society, right? It is the thing we value above all other things. And so, When you go to Congress and you say, "Hey, a company shouldn't pursue profit." They're like, "Get out of here." Like, that's not going to happen. You go ahead. But you have money. Yeah. So you can speak to them louder than I can speak to them. And I have had these conversations. They just won't

like it. It it is you you So this happened in a prohibition, right? Like there was actually there were people so in America there was a time where alcohol was prohibited. Correct. Right. But rarely do you ever get uh society to act that way. And so I agree with you and so I am working on both sides of this. So I'm saying that in this room. So what I what I really struggle with is I think these companies addict all of us to their things. They they are predators and we are prey. Exactly. Scrolling, porn,

fast food, junk food, uh nicotine, these are we we are an addicted society and it's awful. And what I'm saying is this is a really big problem and it's a collective problem. We all own this problem. So, everybody should do what we can to try to fight this problem. The thing that makes me upset is I felt powerless to change my own eating habits every single night. I would binge eat. I couldn't stop myself from doing that. I had didn't I didn't have the capacity to do that. I didn't have anybody in my life to

say, "Hey, Brian, can I help you with this basic thing?" Nobody. So, that's the role I'm trying to play is I'm trying to say you can reclaim control of your life. You can have willpower. I didn't have it. I was stuck. Mhm. And so I'm just trying to make like this the most with with the power I do have in the world, I'm trying to say like how can we try to clean up this mess because clearly a really bad situation. People are hurting. It sucks. Like this is not a good situation. So So I'm

very open like better ideas on how to solve it. I'm trying my best with the powers I can I do have to say like how can we make progress along this. So yeah. No, I I definitely agree. But I don't think any 20 of us have the power, the resources, the the the finances to actually change. But you do. You know what? Every single revolution in history has started with a small group. Every single one. It never underestimate what a small group of people can can transform. I I definitely agree. Yeah. My next claim is

sleep should be everyone's number one life priority. Hi Ryan. Hi. Nice to meet you. Nice to see you. I'm Jolie. Hi Jolie. You said sleep should be the number one priority in people's lives. I get why you would say that like it's very important, right? But then I still think That is based on you should be on living like the longest because of course sleep you know it affects your cognition and your ability to do things and all everything basically. Right. That's right. But I would say still it's still the basis of wanting to live

longer. And I would say to that I would think what do you think the meaning of life is? And if you're kind of constantly using your life on Earth in this pursuit of continuously being on Earth, it's like why? Like what's the point? I would say especially because everything on Earth is very cyclical. So obviously it's kind of designed in that way. Nothing does really truly last forever like that. And I would say it would be important to try to think about why that is and why it's kind of unnatural going against the natural way

of life doing that especially um not to mention there are a lot of other things like hereditary things and genes that we it's out of our control. So I would kind of say what do you think about that? Yeah I think that lack of sleep is like the the first domino that falls over in wrecking life. So when you don't get good sleep, your willpower declines by a large margin. So the next morning when you wake up and you look at a croissant and you say, "Should I or shouldn't I?" You're more likely to say

yes to it. Or if there's a cookie at lunch or whatever your vice is. And so once you do that, of course, that then leads to more cravings for more things like that. And if you do if you eat those things late at night, uh eating very heavily before bed uh will increase your heart rate and lessen your sleep quality again. And it creates this really vicious cycle of bad habits that ruins sleep and ru and bad sleep then lower lowers willpower. I was on that cycle. I was in a really bad state in that

continuous world. And it really hurt a lot. Like I gained a lot of weight. I had no willpower. I had no ability to control my abilities my h my eating habits. And so I say this because uh we all want basic self-respect. We want to do the things we want to do and we don't want to do things we don't want to do. And when you don't get good sleep, you rob yourself of that power. And so what I'm what I'm arguing for is that everybody wants to feel empowered to become the person they want

to be and sleep is the first pillar of that. I understand what you're saying and I agree with that. I just feel like I mean I guess it's still like the whole basis of the claim of um being the number one priority especially you know like that's idealistic thinking. A lot of people don't necessarily have the circumstances to do that. So, it's kind of like I feel like those would be people that are privileged enough to do that. Um, yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Hey. Hey. How are you? How you doing? Well, I'm a personal trainer

and nutritionist, so I actually agree that sleep is so fundamental to having a good day, having good energy, building muscle. It's very, very important. But you're somebody who had a lot of success early in his life because of the sleepless nights that you spent building your company, of the sleepless nights you spent working hard, grinding, and building up. And this is kind of like the foundation of America. It's the foundation of like success comes from sacrifice. And there are sacrifices that have to be made and like sleep is one of them. Like I wouldn't be

able to make it through college if I didn't work at a bar. Like I had to be up till 4 in the morning to pay the bills, do whatever you have to do. Um, and sometimes that sacrifice is just necessary and that's something that needs to be recognized that it can't be your number one priority. Like you have to think farther into the future. Sometimes you sacrifice sleep. Sometimes you sacrifice dieting. But in general, it should be a priority. Yeah, I I really empa empathize with that position. And you're right. I did skip a lot

of sleep in building my company. And you know what I really wish is that somebody would have been in my life and said, "Hey, Brian, let me help you out with a few basic pointers because when I went sleep deprived for several years, I became chronically depressed uh so bad. I really did want to kill myself and I was very seriously going to consider killing myself. And I didn't because of my kids. Uh but there was no one in my life that stepped in and said, "Hey, you might want to incorporate these basic habits." Now,

I was working, you know, 14-hour days. I had three little babies at home, right? I I mean, I have like an a gigantic schedule and all the stress that comes along with building the company and I had no money. I was uh, you know, had a lot of debt and so I totally understand Where people are coming from like it's life squeezes you so you have no time to do anything. So, and I paid my way through college as well. I had no help in doing that. And so, I get it. And so, what I

am trying to say is that we have built a culture that glorifies sleep deprivation. It's a badge of honor. If someone gets three or four hours of sleep, you not only does that happen, you be like, I only got three or four hours and I feel better. They want to flex. And I think that's the thing that's damaging. Then other people try to replicate that, but it leads to a lot of mental disorders. And so I'm arguing that as a society, one of the reasons why we're sick and hurting so badly is because we've glorified

not getting good sleep. And we all know like the human body needs seven to eight hours a night is really kind of an insane moment for us as a species. I'm trying to correct for that. that can we all just get our head straight that a every human no matter the circumstances deserves 78 hours of sleep per night. Yeah, I agree that uh humans do deserve that much sleep but I feel like the problem comes from the fact that like look at what you were able to achieve in that time when you were sacrificing your

sleep. Like you wouldn't be here today. You wouldn't be able to have don't die. You would have never came to the realization that you needed to emphasize your health and you would have never had like the foundation in your life to be able to have this platform to say these things if you didn't sacrifice your sleep early on. All the sac sacrifice is like a fundamental part of living, Especially in America. And it's not fair. But you know what? Life's not really fair at all. There's people who need to do the jobs that go late

into the night. There are people that need to go and do the things that you don't like to do. And there are people that need to like risk death on a regular. You know, these are things that happen and it's not fair. But society can't function if everyone's always so emphasized on comfort and if everyone's always emphasizing just like your immediate health because look, you're reversing everything you did earlier in life and you think you're going to live forever, then the sleep you lost isn't that big of a deal. Yeah, I I agree with you

and I appreciate people who work night shifts. You know, people who are at the ER, if there's a problem, there's someone there to receive you. I'm I'm very grateful there are people who do that. Uh I think it's also the case that I would have been potentially more successful that the reason why I was you know I I I couldn't carry on anymore because I didn't have these basic life uh habits. And so I totally agree with you. You're making great points. It is a it's complicated. It's not easy for everybody. But as a principle,

I think what would be a win for everybody is if we just acknowledge the value of sleep for everybody. Thanks. Thank you. How's it going, Brian? How you doing? Good to see you. Nice to meet you. My name is Marte. I'm an IFBB professional bodybuilder. I'm a pro in two worldclass sports. Pleased to Meet you. My question about the sleep conundrum that we have here today is we have a biological imperative, do we not? Right. We have mothers and fathers and right now we have a population decline that's happening. Pretty sure you already know this,

which this offsets that. If you want people to last longer and live longer, we want people to actually proliferate and have more progeny, right? M well this presents another example because of time we're limited on time and we would say that time is money well during the formative years when kids are being raised guess what's happening the mother's not getting sleep she's waking up the father actually has to go outside of the work she has paternity leave all this stuff happens so that's the problem now you're stuck at a crux to where we have to

figure out how to reconcile this time issue that can never be reconciled if we want more kids and we want a bigger population bloom we need more women to have kids in this nation to produce which means that people are going to be lacking sleep in the in the other interim at the end of this. Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, I think we should have more babies. I think it's a good idea. And you know, I have three babies. And so what I'd argue is that you can have babies, you can have a family

life, and you can also prioritize sleep. So, for example, if I do this again, I would sit my kids down even at the earliest ages and say, "We are a family that prioritizes sleep." So that means every day we have our final meal at this time. Everybody turns their screens off at this time. Uh we have a windown routine before bed where we maybe read a book, maybe we do a bre a breathing exercise, but we calm ourselves down, we go to bed, nobody gets out of their bed unless it's an absolute emergency. And then

because you can't wake somebody up in the morning, Everybody gives everybody either a one to five star review on the star chart. That includes if you walk out, you find your parent watching TV and they're breaking the rules, they get a one-star review. Now, that is a family culture of sleep where it says we're not going to be on screens all night long. When you wake up, you're not going to be on the screen. you're not going to have a pint of ice cream right before bed. Like these really basic things. So, I'm just arguing

that there is a family culture and there is a society culture that says sleep is a good idea. We feel good when we sleep. Now, yes, like when you have babies and they're waking up all night, you're not going to get sleep. I had that for years. I woke up every night, all night with kids who are crying. My first two kids were collicky. I couldn't get sleep for 6 months. I hear you. I've been through the pain. I know it. I still love my children. I'm glad I had my children. But you know there

are things we can do to prioritize sleep. That's what I'm arguing is if within our power to do those things. So I think what you're doing is you're mitigating a process that's going to be inevitable right now. Thus not really providing a solution. All you're doing is staving off things. Now we're talking about quality of life. Right? So when we have a biological imperative right now we also have insert the chat the high inclining divorce rate that we have right now. Women are initiating at a 79% rate. So that means that women are raising kids

by themselves. Whether or not we could say they're running men off or doing anything else or the men are leaving abandoning their kids, they're Doing this by themselves, thus decreasing the chances for sleep even more, eroding this process of having nuclear families to even have more time to sleep. And also, men are being subjected to child support, having to work more hours. There's almost no way that we can get around this conundrum of the time thing. So, what's going to happen? There's no way we can obliterate the sleep problem happening with America unless we change

our culture. Yeah, I agree with you. And like I think one of the bigger problems is I think one of the reasons why relationships decay is poor health hygiene. If neither person's sleeping well, you're much more prone to be angry and to fight. Like your your reaction time to be triggered and to have an emotional response is very strong is very high. So that's why poor sleep it contributes to bad behavior which erodess relationships. So this is kind of like the foundation of how do you keep a relationship together? How do you keep a family

together? How do you keep people in a good state of mind? It all begins with sleep. Well, that that puts you stuck in a rock be in a hard place because until we reconcile this traditional family being eroded, we will always have to reconcile how to get sleep. So, they'll always be at odds with each other unless we change society first. What came first, the church, the chicken or the egg. Right now, we have family culture that needs to change before we dig into people's pocketbooks and subscribe to your $2 million a year budget to

have this happen, which is, I mean, unrealistic and unsustainable for the majority of Americans that we see. Yes, I'm with you. And that's why the things I share with people are free. So I tell people I learn what I can from the scientific evidence of population level de data. Share those experiences with people that are free and try to say hey look we are a society that doesn't have us priorities straight. We can correct these really small things and all feel much better. Repair our relationships. Unfortunately time isn't free. Yeah. Go ahead. Yep. Thanks. Yeah.

Thanks. I appreciate that was quick. Gotcha. How you doing? I'm good. How you doing? Good to see you. So, uh, the claim is that sleep should be everyone's number one priority. Where does that factor in foundationally with water? Yeah. Cuz you can live a long time with no sleep, but I don't think you can live a week without water. Yeah. So, wouldn't we want to prioritize water? Water. Yeah. I can see the point. You're right. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I got nothing. Yeah. [Applause] All right. So, I think saying that sleep should be everyone's top priority

is generally uh a thing that we can mostly agree on in the fact that sleep provides a lot of benefits. I think the main push back on that claim is that it's hard to prioritize sleep when you need to prioritize survival. And this is kind of going off of a lot of the arguments that other people were giving is that say you had somebody that had to work overtime On two jobs. They had people to take care of, they had a family to take care of, and they had to buy groceries and all of that,

and they just couldn't. They didn't have enough time to get 8 hours and 34 minutes of sleep. What are they supposed to do? What are they supposed to prioritize? Yeah. So, I agree with you and I fully acknowledge that people's life circumstances prevent them from having a straight eight hour time period sometimes, right? And so, what I'm arguing is that the things that wreck sleep are the things that are so common in our culture, we don't see. For example, like scrolling on your phone right before bed that degrade your sleep quality. Eating food right before

bed degrades your your your sleep quality. Eating bad foods before bed degrades your sleep quality. a lot of light. Uh so our habits in society are things that actually wreck sleep. So even if you have six hours of of time to get sleep, which is all you can do, it's worse because those preceding habits. And this pairs with why death should you know defeating death should be our number one priority. Because when you think about the world in that way, you basically are acknowledging that good healthy habits are good ideas for every outcome. that you

feel better, like you you want to work harder, that you have more you have more willpower, that I'm arguing that these things are just are intuitive, they're obvious, and we all want them. But society puts so much pressure on us to do these things and and get us to be addicted to these things, it's very hard for us to have the self-control to not Do them. So, I'm arguing that society is structured in a way to kill us. That is a bad thing. And the people who suffer the most are those without resources. And I'm

arguing that that they are in a bad spot. This is not a good situation. So I'm really trying to be the big the best advocate that this is not a good situation. We should stop doing this. How are you advocating that though? What solutions are you bringing to the table to help solve these societal issues? I think it's great that you're like using yourself as a prime example of what the healthiest human can be. But how are we supposed to achieve that point if we don't have the same privileges that you do in getting there?

I think it's super great that you're able to have those privileges and like kind of have everyone learn from your experiences, but how do you propose a solution to where people are able to achieve that eight hours of sleep every night? Yep. It's when health becomes high status. So, I learned this a couple years ago. I was teaching my son how to swim. I learned there were three ways to do it. One is I could push him in the pool. Two, I could jump in the pool and say, "Jump to me." Or three, I could

bring his friend over who knows how to swim. And guess which one works? The friend who knows. The friend, right? people do what their friends do. Now, if their friends are out partying and drinking all night and they're eating junk food because, you know, at midnight, that's what you're going to do because your friends are doing it. What I'm trying to change is the culture around our die culture. That's what's so damaging to everybody. So, when your friend starts going to bed at the appropriate time, when they say like, look, it's a bad idea to

scroll on your phone to dream scroll before bed, that also ruins your sleep. That's a really positive thing because then all friend groups start doing it and then it becomes okay and even high status. So, I'm trying to change the culture of the world to say it's not cool to die. What's cool is to live and like to feel our best, right? I would say a lot of the examples you're bringing up, those scrolling your phone and like eating bad food, those are all like generally negative things. I think a lot of people though sometimes

are sacrificing their sleep to do fun things and things that they enjoy. Where do you draw the line in say someone is prioritizing living an enjoyable life over prioritizing just living as long as possible? What are if they sacrifice a few hours of sleep, they only get like six, seven hours of sleep instead of like the full eight hours and 34 minutes that you're able to get. Yeah. Yeah. So, the challenge with that is that for example, if your bedtime is at 10 p.m. and you go to bed at 1:00 a.m. and you think you

can just sleep till 9:00 a.m. to make it up, you can't. So, every night you miss your bedtime, the trash collector who comes to your body and picks up all the trash, they don't come. So, your body accumulates trash. And so, you miss this really important part of your cleaning process of your body. So, it's definitely true that humans can have fun during any time of the day. It doesn't need to be from midnight to 2 am. You could have fun Between 6:00 and 8:00 p.m. It's just a culture. We've just chosen to have these

schedules, but there's no law of physics that says humans can only have fun between 11 p.m. and 2 a.m. Like we could No, but like given the opportunity, if they want to prioritize an enjoyable life over living as long as possible, then isn't that something that would be worthwhile in sacrificing a few hours of sleep? Say it's just one night. Yeah. Thank you so much again. My name is Dr. Sabat Rabian. I'm a behavior analyst and a psychologist. Um I watch your documentary. U you're pretty impressive person. Uh some of your statements are pretty significant

from a psychological perspective, from a behavior analyst perspective. Um the one about the sleep. Um I used to love sleeping before I have children. I would have slept about 9 to 10 hours per day and it really helped me. But after my both boys were born and they were diagnosed with profound autism, um I am no longer able to sleep. For example, I flew from Bay Area this morning to Meu and I got couple of hours of sleep last night because my 17-year-old son with uh profound autism didn't sleep at all last night. Um so

some of these claims they do not apply to the public to general. Um me being one of them as a mother of a child with special needs and we do know that 50 to 80% of children with autism or other mental disabilities they don't sleep well at all and they have a lot of sleeping issues. Uh so if I want to advocate for that population a lot of These parents are significantly sleepd deprived. uh so as some of the other people prior to me stated about the fact that 50 70% of American population live p

pay paycheck to paycheck um these people do not have the luxury they would love to sleep in but they do not have the luxury to sleep in and um they have to work double shifts u triple shifts night shifts doctors nurses they don't have that luxury looking at these claims although they are really significant and impressive they don't apply to a lot of people so Um I would say that these statements um if if you do want to help the humanity which you do multiple times throughout this uh session you said advocacy I would like

to advocate if you really want to advocate for humanity you should come up with ideas that majority of the people can benefit from they should not be only applying to the rich and advantage and wealthy I have also an autism practice in the Bay Area that I help autism community and 50% of my patients they are medical patients purposely we distributed that between them and um people who can use their u they're rich and wealthy and can pay for it. 50% are disadvantaged and poor but they they take take advantage of the service. So a

lot of these statements in general it it becomes a real advocacy if majority of the people can benefit from not just the rich and wealthy and healthy and successful but also poor and disadvantaged. So what do you say about that? Yeah, I mean first um I'm sorry to hear about that and second I respect you for what you're doing. Thank you. But no being, you know, having the sons with autism, it doesn't make me feel sorry. Actually, I really have accepted them the way they are and I love them and I appreciate them. So, yeah.

Yeah. And it wasn't empathy for that. It's just that that um you're not getting sleep is painful. It really makes everything else in life so much harder. So, I guess I'm I'm trying to acknowledge that I I hear you and I've been through those periods in my life. I don't have a good answer for you. I'm just I I agree with you. I see you. I understand you. And I know there's a lot of circumstances in our society that are just like that. And sometimes it feels powerless. And so I don't know what to say

about it other than like I'm deeply empathetic. I've been there. I know what it feels like. And uh it's hard. And again going back to what I said, autism is impacting one in 31 kids. So the ad real advocacy comes in when majority of the people when our community when our population is getting impacted by such a disorder or other things in this world, we should be advocating for all of them not for certain population. Yeah. Thank you. What was your name again? Brighton. Brighton. Brighton, I I choose you because I feel like you entered

the debate with some good arguments that I think uh deserve more extensive discussion. My claim is that life's finitude breeds its meaning. Yeah. If you I think if you go back the past couple thousand years and you ask a person in any given moment, what is the purpose of life or what makes you happiest? You would probably get a slightly different answer every year for the past few thousand years. Humans change what they value. They change what they aspire to become. Moral and ethical norms change. So it it's not a static thing. And right now

dying is inevitable. And when that death is inevitable, people come up with reasons why that's a good thing. It's a it's a it's a vision of coping with this ugly reality. And if you fast forward 10, 15, 20 years when we're maybe extending our lifespans to 100, 150, 200 years, maybe even more, you're going to see humans start transforming their opinions. For examp, okay, let me give you another example. I was 50 lbs overweight and I couldn't really do anything about it. I tried to diet. I tried to I tried everything I could. I couldn't

really control it. I didn't have access to a GLP-1. So, my opinion would be very different if I had access to a shot that just changed my ability to not be overweight. Right? If someone just has the ability to be healthy and not degrade over time, they're going to naturally change their opinion of that given thing because it's something that's now possible. So, I think humans will adapt their opinions as the technology moves forward and enables us to live longer, healthier lives. Yeah, I would argue that something that is shorterdived and things that last a

less amount of time, People tend to value those things more because there is an expiration date on it. And I think that's why a lot of people come up with these coping mechanisms, if they are coping mechanisms. I'm not saying they are, but because they value those moments and maybe it is based off of a fear of the unknown, but they're doing that because they value the moments. And the reason why you've said before uh that you just want to exist tomorrow and that's all you know is that you want to exist tomorrow. And I

think the reason why we have that yearn and why you're correct in saying that we have that yearn is because tomorrow isn't guaranteed. I think that's the reason because death exists. That's why we appreciate every day a little bit more. Yeah. I mean, yes, that's I agree with your point. We also value long-term things. you know, you you choose to have a baby now so your baby can grow up and go through life, right? Go to school and get married and have their own children. So, we do choose both short-term and long-term goals. They they

they all motivate us, right? I I would say though that those goals are meaningful because there is an expiration date and because we we have to do it. There's kind of a rush to achieve things because we know that we don't have a lot of time, right? So, I want to achieve my career goals. I want to uh start a family and everything and the only reason I have any motivation to do that is because I know that I have a limited amount of time and the only reason why we have that is because we

have a guaranteed expiration date. Yeah. This reminds me if you were to travel back in time and you're with Homoctus a million years ago, they have an axe in their hand. You have some rudimentary form of communication. You say, "Homoctus, tell me about the future of existence. What will our ancestors be like?" They would say, "Well, you're going to forge over there and you're going to travel over there. They'll tell you their mental models of the world. What they're not going to tell you is that one day you're going to just put a little white

thing in your mouth and your infection goes away. You're going to discover a microscopic world of bacteria. This leads to infection and death. Uh they're not going to tell you that you're going to hold this magic box in your hand and talk to anyone in the world in real time through the speed of light. That's not part of their mental models. And what I'm saying right now is is we live in a moment where our world may experience a million years equivalent of evolutionary advance in a very short period of time. That our perspectives of

reality may dramatically change. And so I'm saying that everything we understand right now may be old-fashioned even 3 years or 5 years or seven years from now. And that the best thing we can do is to say, hey, like the way we've built society around death, it totally makes sense. When when death is inevitable, makes sense. When profit is your primary objective, makes sense. But when these circumstances arrive where you're giving birth to super intelligence, everything kind of changes a bit. We say, what is life again? Like what does it mean to live? What is

the purpose of life? How do we feel about ourselves? How do we treat our fellow humans? Is it ethical for me to build a company that sells something to you to make you die? Is it ethical for me to make you die? Is it ethical for me to have a structure in society to say I should profit when you die? Is that ethical? And I said I don't No, it's not. It is not ethical for someone in society to cause someone else to die. That's what I'm saying is and this is the the trappings of

our society is that we are addicted and we can't see this. I've been there. So this is the argument I'm making is that we are at a different point of being human. I don't disagree with you. I think although the claim that we may be at we may be the first generation to live forever, we may be the first generation not to die because of your faith in artificial intelligence advancement is similar to religion because people have a faith that there will be an afterlife that there will be a good that there will be something

after this life. So, isn't it the same thing to have this faith based off of really no empirical data that artificial intelligence where will improve to get rid of death? And why specifically does it have to improve to conquer that goal? Why can't it be any other goal? Is it are you saying that it's that goal? Because that's what you want or because there's actual evidence that we are going to achieve ending death. Yeah. I mean, to hope is to be human, Right? Like that's our fuel. We we all feel hope that we can have

tomorrow and that we have something to to gain tomorrow. And the reason why it's don't die is because anything even in the positive where I say live well or be well or live long, your version of that may be different than my version. And what happens when humans disagree on certain things is they kill each other. That's been the case all along is that humans kill each other over different ideas. Don't die is the single thing everybody can agree to. rich and poor, whatever nation, it is the single thing that humans want. Nobody wants to

die right now. And that's what I'm trying to say. This is not about immortality. It's not about 50 years in the future. It's not about the rich getting mortality. This is about every human on the planet saying we value being alive right now. It acknowledges human dignity and human existence at the most humble layer possible. And it's the most friendly ideology where it says you can be Christian and don't die. You can be Muslim, don't die. You can be capitalist don't die. Socialist, don't die. Chinese and don't die. You can be anything you want and

don't die. It says we as a species lock in and say this is our stand. We are not going to accept this. But why is death such a negative thing that we shouldn't ever get to that point? Because you don't know and I don't know what happens after death even though some people believe that they know. Aren't we then because we are afraid of it? Because I'm afraid. I assume you're a little bit afraid to die. But we don't know what it is. We don't know if it's a negative or a positive. So by avoiding

it, aren't we depriving oursel of that experience of death? Yeah. So I'm not afraid of death. And you know, if somebody wants to die, that's their prerogative and and totally cool. The problem is when the concept of death is part of society, people build things that cause other people to die. That's the problem. And so, do we want to introduce super intelligence to our world and say we are a species that thinks it's cool to do things that cause other intelligent species to die? I don't think that's the move. I don't think we want that

part of our society. I don't think we want that to happen. I agree. And I would say although uh with great power obviously comes great responsibility and you are a big influencer and you have a lot of influence on people's decisions. So saying things like that like we shouldn't motivate people to eat unhealthy, like we shouldn't generally eat fast food. I I can agree with that. I think specifically there are problems with that claim. I would push back on that a little bit because things like food deserts exists where people don't have access to healthy

food. People don't have transportation to healthy food. And while I think it it is true people should eat healthy and they probably will feel better if they eat healthy. And you've acknowledged before that not a lot not everyone can do that. Yes. But I I think a problem can occur when because it's a nuance topic and you're you're not talking about all the nuances of it. It can scare people off when they say when you say like people can't eat fast food and then they're like but fast food is all I have. That Seems way

too hard for me to accomplish so I'm just not going to try it all. Um, and I I I assume you've you've mentioned that before, but I feel like it could be emphasized that people should just do as much as they can. Yeah. Rather than saying you should never eat fast food, you should try to eat healthy food as much as possible. It's a great point and you're right. Well, do you want to arm wrestle? Uh, what do you think overall this conversation today? Uh, I think it was great. I think what I respect about

you is that you're a person who can have a debate and when you don't know something, you say, "I don't know." And when you feel like the other person is right, you say, "I think you're right." And I think that's very valuable. You're not trying to prove the other person wrong, and you're not just trying to win the argument, but you're trying uh to get everyone to learn. And so I respect that, and I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Awesome. What did you think about it? I really had a lot of trepidation

coming here today because I actually I prepared for this uh for like six weeks. I did I every morning I would actually I would go over my questions and I would try to imagine like where are you at? What is happening in your life? Like what are the real constraints? What do you feel? Like how painful is life? And I was I was nervous that I was going to come in here and that you would be here and I'd be here and it would take us a time to find a dance To say actually like

we hear the same music. We just need to figure out like how to vibe together. Yeah. And I feel like it took me about 59 minutes like to find the vibe of like what is going on because people have these preconceived notions. I'm a rich person out of touch that has unrealistic ideas about the world that doesn't actually understand like like what people are really going through. I deeply understand it. And so I um I learned a lot on how to try to communicate these things. I hope that I was uh I show that I'm

empathetic that I really do understand and I genuinely am trying to be in your corner to be your best supporter. Like that is it's not my goal to criticize. It's not my goal to shame you. It's to say like I understand. I'm with you. I've got your back. Like I want to be your strongest proponent. And so I learned that the way I communicate that I need to come through different ways to to package that because I think it takes a minute for us to reconcile like where we're each at and then find connection. So

I found it to be really helpful. I'm I'm grateful to all of you for all of your perspectives. I really learned a lot. I I feel like I grew a lot. Um and so I appreciate your like your patience with me as I stumble through how to communicate these new ideas. Awesome. Sounds great. Thank you so much. Thank you. Nice meeting you. I think the debate was more interesting than I expected. I wasn't sure how it was going to be approached by Brian and I think he was a little more genuine than I expected to

him to be. I maybe had a little bit of a Frankenstein vision of who he is as a person. I think it was helpful for me to realize that he wasn't kind of just making these blanket statements expecting everyone to do exactly what he does and that he does actually have a more nuanced understanding of people's personal problems and I appreciate the fact that he was saying people should just try as much as they can to achieve the kind of same health standards. I thought the cast was fantastic. I really had a good time. I

thought their perspectives were great. I thought that they presented real life circumstances. They were speaking from the heart. So, I really took them at face value and I think that they're genuinely looking for a solution, you know, like, okay, so if if they agree with this, like tell me what to do. And I think that's a great point. It's a good invitation for me to actually like try to develop more robust solutions. So, I thought they were spot on with their observations.