how our beliefs and environment shape our physical reality including the development of our DNA now he has extended the understanding of the rise and fall of our belief systems to our cultures at large in his newest book spontaneous Evolution last time we spoke we were getting into the book the biology of belief and we're talking about how cells act as Comm parts of community members of community Guided by our own Consciousness our own belief systems but you've taken this work and you've expanded it out onto a much larger scale looking at the evolution of larger
systems in which each one of us is acting like a cell within the microsystem of the human body and you're calling it spontaneous Evolution your new book and we need to get into I'd like to find out from you what had you what what stimulated the leap from the body to the larger system of cultures and some of the reason for why we need this now well there are two interesting and scientific foundations for extending the work from the biology of belief about cells and then extending it to people H uh number one is that
we now recognize that nature is designed uh the geometry the structure of nature is designed on the basis of what is called fractal geometry and fra geometry is unique geometry not the one we learned in school the geometry we did learn in school called ukan geometry you can't model nature with it it all those triangles cones cubes and spheres are not what nature really looks like but in when we were 5 years old in kindergarten we made a tree we made a ukian tree we had like a a cylinder for the trunk and a ball
for the top but obviously that's not nature likee that geometry is not the nature geometry we now recognize this new geometry that really came into our world in 1983 with the work of benoa Mel bro from IBM called fractal geometry and it's a different version of Geometry and it's very exciting but here's the fundamental key characteristic of this geometry built into the nature of the mathematics is a reality that images of the structure repeat themselves in a very self-similar fashion at any level of the organization that you're talking about so if you want to talk
about cells or people or civilizations they're all built on the same geometry but the key word for most people to understand is that this geometry links an ancient mystical understanding uh there was a phrase that uh people are familiar with As Above So Below well with this new geometry that becomes mathematical and scientific as a reality that's why I can study the nature of a cell and understand the nature of a human because a human is a fractal image of a cell we we're made out of cells we're just a large version of a cell
and so that a human body turns out not to be a one thing as we see it in the mirror but when we really understand if you could see it with microscopic eyes so you could see what it looked like you recognize that a human body is a community of upwards to 50 trillion cells every cell is essentially a miniature human because virtually every cell has every function that I have in my body it's already present a a matter of fact any function that I do with my body is only because a cell can do
that function because I'm made out of cells and we're talking right down to reacting to emotional and external stressors in life absolutely the the same responses of cells to their world are exactly uh the same kind of Behavioral responses that we have in our own world and the world the way we live so that it becomes understandable this this is why for example why we work on cells and biology because if we get an understanding of the nature of the cells we can apply that information directly to the nature of human bi te ology so
that we extend this work so in looking at Nature's fractal and recognizing that the cell is actually the fundamental recognizing that the cell is the fundamental unit of the human body that the human body is actually built in the image of that cell then we start to recognize look inside of you right now are 50 trillion citizens they're each cell is its own sentient being when I was culturing these cells I'd take them out of a person's body put them in a culture tradition they have their own life they didn't need us so then all
of a sudden you look back and you say here we are in a world today with maybe 7 billion people and we're on the edge of our own Survival we're pushing our our own extermination Extinction is looming and because we can't seem to get along with 7 billion people on the entire globe of the surface of this Earth and then I say you know what inside your body right now are 50 trillion cells they're like miniature humans every cell has their own life every cell has a job every cell gets health care every cell gets
protection they live in a world they get paid actually for their work so all of a sudden I say there's a civilization inside of us that is far more adaptable uh capable of living in a world than we are and look at it this way they've been here a million years and guess what when you are happy and when you are healthy that means 50 trillion citizens in your body are simult ously healthy and happy along with you now imagine if a whole world could be like a healthy human body so when we take the
scientific Foundation of fractals and apply that to our world then we say look you want to understand how how to have an economy cells get paid you know and it's interesting they're not Communists in the sense that the skin cell and the nerve cell gets the same amount of money man the nerve cell makes a lot more money true but its job is much it's a much greater job a skin cell makes less every cell is paid according to its job but basically says this there's no success in the system until every cell has gotten
its pay and every cell has done its job and every cell contributes to the whole of the community and then you look inside that community and you figure my goodness how do they figure all that out and the answer is well as above so below so if we look at the nature of how it works inside then we are given evidence through nature and through fractal geometry of how to do the same thing out here in our world and then when you start to look at that that's what my work started to extend and go
wait a minute we as individual humans are like cells in a larger superorganism called humanity and what this new work that I'm involved with spontaneous evolution is concerned about is we're on the on the threshold of an evolutionary leap it's not the evolution of the human human's already evolved we're not evolving and changing it's the organization of humans that is evolving and changing and in the biosphere we talk about humans collectively as an organism as a superorganism so it's civilization that's evolving and then when you put all these pictures back together you say wait if
it's all built on fractals and it's all built on repetitive patterns then the evolution of civilization would be a fractal image of evolution that has already been placed laid out before so if we could go back in the biosphere to lower levels see how the steps of evolution were accomplished apply that information to our civilization then we can make the necessary jump that uh we're being forced to make right now and this really goes back to belief systems oh absolutely I mean the whole thing is based on the belief systems of cultures throughout the ages
and what motivated those cultures and their their religions and so forth right yeah it's very interesting because I'll give you a scientific fact the way I see it right now and that is civilization as we know it is ending yes and that doesn't mean that people are disappearing and the world disappears and all this it just says the way that we live in our world and have been living is changing so that in order for us to survive we must change the way we live on this planet and and we're being forced into this because
there's just a very obvious thing from the level of science science has recognized that on this planet in our history there have been five times where biological life essentially got wiped out and then started all over again these are called mass extinctions so there were five previous mass extinctions in our history and what's interesting all of them have been attributed to extraterrestrial forces such as a comet or asteroid hitting the planet destroying the environment causing upheaval loss of life and then a Resurgence of all new life forms Okay so we've now established that five times
this is already occurred here's the freaky part Science Now recognizes we're deep into the sixth mass extinction now science doesn't say we're flirting with mass extinction it's already recognized we are deep into the throws of a mass extinction species are disappearing at rates that have never been seen before that our own Survival is now actually a question it's it's not like well do you think we're going to be effective by no the question now is will we survive this from a scientific understanding I mean consider this simple fact it is now established by science within
40 years the fish that we are familiar with will be fished out of the ocean it's like okay that's almost unimaginable to believe that yeah but nature is a chain structure a web structure and you start knocking out the pieces of the web underneath then the entire web starts to crash and so yes indeed science has recognized we're facing our own Extinction so that means we have to change the nature of ization but here's the fun part this isn't the first time this has happened in western civilization we can go back and I can tell
you there have been five different civilizations that have come raised up their way of life and the world live that way then those civilizations have crashed and have been replaced by new civilizations with different ways of life so this is not like oh this is the first time this is happening so we can go back and if we understand the nature of how a civilization Rises and then why does it fall then look at these patterns which are fractal then we can say so where are we in this process and and of course the most
exciting thing is I don't have to tell you that I we don't have to tell the audience we're on the cusp of an evolutionary upheaval we're facing it every day people can feel it and it's very interesting because it may not be a conscious thing that they feel because there's something more profoundly deeply biological that's affecting them first and it's something that in biology we call the biological imperative yes and the biological imperative is an understanding that science has but but it hasn't been able to find a mechanism to account for it but here's the
understanding any organism whose life is threatened the organism will take every action possible to survive so it says that somehow or other built into an organism is a drive to stay alive and when that you know Staying Alive becomes threatened then the organism is engaged and activated to take any action at that point to survive whatever the threat is being imposed upon them so basically look most people don't really see the mechanics of what's really going on in the world but regardless of that they're very familiar with this that it seems kind of shaky it's
kind of threatening they feel it in their gut that's the biological imperative it says something's not right and I'm I'm I'm concerned about this so it says yes the entire population even if they're not conscious of it as being driven by a biological reality that we're on the edge of something that is so lifechanging and and we don't know and that's the exciting part but then it's exciting to some and to others who' have gred a little bit further the next uh emotion I think would be called fear well the biological imperative actually induces fear
yes it does well this is interesting this is going to be a larger part of this conversation because here you have people going into fear because they can sense or feel this this imperative as you say and as a result this creates oftentimes the old Paradigm of competition when in fact we're moving into a new type of evolutionary pattern which actually requires the opposite and that that'll I want to get into where those two bump up against each other and how it's accomplished but can you do me a favor because I heard you lecture a
while back and I love the way you did this little diagram in terms of belief system it says where we started the Cycles we've moved through and how we're ending right back where we started and you were talking again about um animism and so forth and going through and then talking about scientific materialism back animism can you give just your brief little talk to us on the thumbnail sketch the thumbnail sketch of how that how that wheel of life has been um yes how show Absolutely well it it's it's very exciting because we can go
back to the earliest civilizations uh when Humanity started to come out of their animal phase and started to come into a social organization a it was at that time at the earliest time that the First Fundamental questions of our existence arose people started to ask a question you know well how do we get here and why are we here and how can we make the best of it while we're here fundamental questions of human life well we can go back and we'll have to then recognize that the earliest civilizations let's just work with a with
a civilization I refer to as animism animism which is reflected for example in the Native American way of life or The Druids in Europe or the Aborigines in Australia these were people who lived in in harmony with their environment and they recognized that their world consisted of two Realms the physical tangible material realm but they were also very familiar with a non-physical realm an energy an invisible realm of influences that were not physical and tangible so basically they looked at their world as a balance between the two so for example if you're a Native American
and wanted to go on a hunt let's say you want to go hunt for a buffalo you know that's the physical thing you were looking for but you also recognize there's an invisible relevance to that Buffalo as well an energy a spirit to it so if you want to go hunt for the Buffalo yes you wanted the physical animal but you really had to appeal to its energy and its spirit so in an animistic realm they saw Both Worlds existing simultaneously and not separable MH an animal and its Spirit were always connected and that you
had to recognize both Realms to make sense out of the world and the people and their Spirit were connected oh well the everything a raindrop a rabbit a human they all anything that was tangible and physical did have an energetic uh complement to it okay and they were always connected so uh they were very spiritual people but they were also very material they lived in the world and and so basically the questions that that they were trying to answer were the same questions that were being asked by humans all over the world the same questions
how do we get here and why are we here Etc well it's interesting because the the questions these fundamental questions are frequently referred to as the perennial questions they've been asked forever the same questions now here's a here's a fun part in looking at this research I got involved with and I recognize look we we went through different phases of our civilization and I thought well where what is it that brings up a civilization and what is it that brings it back down and brings up the next one and it turns out it's very simple
and it works like this a civilization is based on the beliefs that or the answers to the perennial questions whoever provides answers to those fundamental questions how how do we get here why are we here how do we make the best of it if a group buys the answer from some entity or some organization we have a couple things going on number one we then make that Source Our Truth provider for that Civilization whoever we buy the answers from we have questions about anything else we go to them because they are our truth providers number
two whatever answers they provide then we use those as a guide to shape how we live with each other and with our relationship to the planet and now here's the interesting fun part that what we' have seen over the years is that the answers to the questions change periodically and when the answers to the questions change new answers come in provided by new truth providers with new ways of living life the old ways then start to crash and a new civilization comes up it doesn't mean you get rid of everything from the previous civilization you
take the stuff that was good bring it with you and then add the new information so we're always like taking along the things that work and then adding the new things and things that don't work at the end of a civilization we let those go and replace them with the new beliefs okay so so how so then how we get from animism to What followed well let's answer the questions as animist C so you can see why they live this way they answer the question is how do we get here and to animists the answer
was essentially uh father sky and Mother Earth and you might say well that sounds really nice and you know mythological and fairy tale like and it turns out no it's absolutely the most scientific ly accurate assessment of how we got here we got here because we are made out of elements of the Earth the atoms the physical material but it's not that's just inorganic chemistry like Earth and crystals and rocks and stuff like that but when you take the Earth the elements of earth and combine it with sunlight then you take an element of the
earth and mix it with the energy unit so now you have energized Earth and this is called organic chemistry and it provides the foundation of all living organisms so living organisms are made out of the elements of the earth that have fused with the energy from the Sun so they're energized matter we're enlivened matter that we are infused with the light from the sun this is where our energy comes from so as living things we express Mother Earth and father Sky okay so that makes total scientific sense and then this next question is and why
are we here well they had a great answer for those animists they said we're here to tend the garden and they knew at that point that every organism is part of a community that the entire biosphere including the humans in that biosphere are one entangled integrated whole and if they learn to live in harmony with each other it will prosper and the garden will grow so was yeah we're here to tend the garden great idea and then how and how do you do that the answer is learn learn to live in harmony with each other
and with nature so these sound like pretty wonderful ways of life in fact um many people in this world aspire to that exact way of life yes but what happened over time was we bought into some new beliefs and the new beliefs the next level of evolution changed that instead of every physical object having a spirit entangled with it the next level of our culture bought into a belief that said well the spirit is separate from the matter and that there are Gods so there's a god of water animist said every drop of water has
a spirit but the next level is called polytheism many gods and what that did was take the spirit out of the matter and make it a separate entity so I can talk about oh here's matter over here and here's Spirit over here now we can talk about them as separate elements animists that you could never separate them okay so now what does that mean well the first thing it means is this as humans we lost our spirit there was a spirit of humanity but it wasn't in you and me anymore we're just like the rocks
and the dirt now in regard to that so then there was an emphasis to say well which realm is more important well the invisible realm got the nods on that one and people started to say yes let's worship the gods and the material realm got less value to it because it was that mystery that came from the invisible realm and basically it changed the way we lived on this planet when the truths started to come come from the priests of the polytheistic temples we lost our power our spirit we're in a world disconnected from Spirit
but we want to learn to live in harmony with spirit so uh for example the in the Greeks uh their answers to the questions how do we get here and the answer is to the Greeks came up with we came from chaos and then you go well that's kind of weird and then I say now wait a minute as scientists and physicists will tell you that the physical Universe came out of a chaos of energy one day and a big bang and exploded into reality so the Greeks had an insight to this already as well
so they weren't wrong it was just a New Vision on the take but then you say well if you came from chaos and what's our purpose for being here well they had trouble with the answer to that it's like well it was chaos I don't know why we're here we just came out of this chaos but they did have an answer for the third question The Perennial question of how do you make the best of it and their answer was and I like it cuz it's it's fun it's a don't anger the gods you know
what does that mean well here's the point in polytheism the gods could take on any different form and shape that the person sitting next to you at a table could be God you don't know because the gods are always changing well that means if you don't know who God is well then you better darn well be nice to everybody because you don't know so it really generated a a communal understanding okay I like everybody because one of you might be God in here don't want the Judgment so we bought that and it was a period
where civilization removed an emphasis from the material plane and started putting a little bit more emphasis into appeasing and appealing the invisible forces that apparently were shaping the planet and what's very interesting every civilization be it the animist or the polytheist or the other ones we're going to talk about uh civilizations are are like living organisms they arise they're born they develop they go into a mature adult State and then at some point they go into a decline and as they go into a decline a new civilization will start to come up you say well
why did they go into Decline and here's a fun answer to the question civilizations like children start out in a developmental phase like children we try everything let's just try things for the fun of it and then at some point of course with the parental pressures and everything we get pushed into a way of this is the way life is and so as we leave childhood and get into maturity we get what we would say rigid beliefs about this is the way life is this is the law it's rigid so while children are out there
pushing the limits parents are holding the limits saying this is just the way it is well there's a little problem with rigidity and that is nothing in the universe is rigid and stays the same nothing so the concept that you can have a civilization say we're going to stay exactly the same way as we are uh it's like creates a lot of resistance that's for a lot of force to keep the universe from doing that so what does it lead to it says as civilizations mature and then become rigid they run and operate for a
while but then the rigidity creates challenges because you're not allowing the bending and the movement the evolution and the challenges start to build up and when the challenges get to a certain level it signals the decline of the old rigid way of thinking and the birth of a bunch of new people creative minorities saying what other way can we survive and live in this world and generate all new ideas and they become the birthing of a new civilization as the old one declines so what we've talked about right now is we start with animism spirit
and matter one and the same can't separate them go into polytheism separate spirit and give many different gods to it and they and the spirits lived on the planet so Mount Olympus uh was really someplace on the planet somewhere the gods were here when polytheism started to fail a new civilization started to take over and the new civilization is called monotheism and monotheism brings all the ideas of spirits from the past and different gods but try to bring them together and make a new vision so what's the new vision yes spirit is separate from the
material world but now guess what now the spirit's not even on this planet anymore spirit is somewhere else and it's overriding everything and it's only one spirit and it doesn't even exist here anymore and then what the belief of the Civ civilization was well how did monotheism answer the questions that then shape the civilization the answerers well we got here through divine intervention so God infused us with life that's you know David and Michelangelo picture you know touching uh God and finger stuff like that and we got infused with life you say yeah but then
um why are we here and the answerers well you know what it turns out we really don't want to be here we really want to be over to that invisible place where all that spiritual stuff's happening but we're not ready to go so this is a a playground where we play out plays of morality and what was the point this is a testing point if you do okay on this physical plane then you will be allowed to go to the other place so the the thing is here's the world where it's based on material and
spiritual and guess what we discard this the material because that's the thing that's damned that if you get trapped in the material realm that's keeping you from going to that spiritual realm so separated matter and spirit so much that Spirit doesn't exist here and our mission here is only to go there so it says so how do you do that how do you make the best of it and the answer is well we live by the laws of the scripture and the Bible okay so we buy into this and the world goes pretty good under
monotheism except for there's a problem and that is the church in running this civilization claims the concept of absolute knowledge meaning that their truths are the TR truths and no other truth can question them and if you do question that truth well that's I love it it's the the Primal example of what is called the kangaroo court in other words you challenge the church and they pull you into the Inquisition Court I don't care who your lawyer is you're not making it through that court and the reason is this because if anything is found to
be untrue and proven to be untrue any simple little fact then the concept of absolute knowledge falls out so the church protects absolute knowledge by what preventing any new Knowledge from coming in right and that was called the Inquisition okay so the church is running this but then here's where the problem comes down it's just inevitable knowledge is power absolute knowledge is absolute power and absolute power absolutely corrupts the church lost its Mission while they were claiming let's all go up to the spiritual heaven and let go of the material plane they were the one
that were collecting the most of the material plane they were taking the money and all the proceeds of this material plane and trading and bartering that for your ticket to go to the other place absolute corruption absolute corruption that led people to be a little more skeptical at some point and ultimately led to the Protestant Reformation that said maybe this isn't completely the whole story and the Protestants brought back materialism because you see the the church said matter is damned your connection to matter is keeping you from going there and the Protestants brought back materialism
said this if God loves you he will then reward you with matter so your success in the material realm could be considered your success in the spiritual realm because God is giving you this so we go from monotheism which said that matter is damned and you only want to go to the spiritual world then Protestant uh changes that a bit that says material it's not so bad you could have some of that stuff it didn't change civilization cu the answers are pretty still the same ones with divine intervention living out play morality living according to
scripture same civilization didn't change but people started questioning the truths and the truths were questioned until 1859 because that's when Charles Darwin came in with a theory of evolution and what was relevant about this well the world was facing challenges that the the the corruption of the church had precipitated so that meant civilization was in a state of turmoil and upheaval looking for some new answers and science came onto the realm and provided some new answers and the first thing that came in was this the concept of Genesis that vision of you know God you
know instilling life into us because Darwin came up with something that the average person on the street could so easily comprehend and it didn't seem magic at that point he came up with theory of evolution he said two parents made the they make a bunch of Offspring and every now and then one of the offsprings kind of weird and moves off in a different direction and if you would make those Offspring they would go further off in a different direction so the relevance of people in the 1850s was pre-television pregame boy most people's entertainment was
um breeding plants and animals so everyone is familiar you take two parents and breed them you get a litter of something and they also familiar with every now and then the weird Oak happens and so when Darwin took that image everybody was familiar with and said so push that weirdo idea a number of generations and then all of a sudden a new species comes well everybody said that heck make more sense than you know God created Earth in seven days you know and this was the breaking of the back of the previous civilization monotheism because
new answers started coming in and the new answers to the questions were now based on science's view and people had more trust in science as a truth provider than they did the church so in the previous civilization monotheism yes they answered the perennial questions but if you had any question about life where would you go who was your truth provider you go to the priest but after science came in with new answers and the people as a group started to say I AC I accept those more than the previous generation and so what were the
answers that science came up with well how did we get here random mutation yeah well I can see that I made it plants and animals that makes a lot of sense why are we here well there's absolutely no reason why we're here because it was an accident of genetics it was like shaking genetic dice it just turned out that way and and then basically then science put a little cave on say well we don't know why we're here but while we're here our mission is to reproduce because that would be the darwinian drive for taking
over reproduction and then how do you make the best of it this is the Killer because science came up with a story uh based on Thomas malus that animals breed faster than plant life so that a farmer growing animals the population would double every year but a farmer growing corn is not going to double the yield of corn every year and why is that relevant well all of a sudden you say wait animals are growing faster than feed what does that mean that means some point there going to be more animals then feed and this
malthusian idea was really the idea that uh we're going to run into a struggle for our survival why because there's going to be more organisms than food and so what does that mean well it says then if you understand the nature of civilization it says then inevitably we're going to breed too many people we're going to use up all the food there's going to be a fight and the Survivor will be the fittest so then I said well how do you make the best of it and the answer is on this Planet well to be
the fittest and then you say in this struggle for survival so it's like the first premise of the belief system is we live in a world that's based on a struggle this is a doggy dog world and how are you going to win well you're going to be the fittest well how you going to do that competition and you're going to compete and you're going to beat the other guy and if they die that's okay too because there's too many of them anyway so this whole belief of this doggy dog world became a truth and
a cultural uh you know template of which we live by in this world it's very interesting uh Charles Darwin's book was uh titled On the Origin of Species and and he had a subtitle so it was on the Origin of Species or the preservation of the favored races in the struggle for survival what sold the book was not on the Origin of Species what sold the book was a subtitle and that was why it was intentionally made on the preservation of the favored races and the struggle for survival this book became a primer for governments
because every government wanted to take care of its favorite race its own people well how do you do it well here's the instruction book of evolution says you got to be the fittest yeah how because you have to compete and beat the other people so all of a sudden it's like my God uh the the previous civilization monotheism how do you make the best of it well you live by the laws of the scripture and now we say well what what about this new civilization which is based on scientific uh understanding which is actually called
scientific materialism because it's based on the matter world as being Primal over the invisible World an extension of Newtonian physics and you say well how do you make the best of it and the answer is you live by the law of the Jungle and we have to recover and regain who we really are because when we do that then we manifest the future and I see how beautiful it is why because I've traveled through that body with 50 trillion citizens and saw oh my god look how they spend money in here look how they save
money in here they do it differently and look how it works and it says the answers for us are already worked out cells have politics economics Health Care defense postures everything that we need and they've done it and all we have to do is say can we follow what you did and the answer is that's called fractal and evolution
