Ricky Gervais - The Origins Podcast with Lawrence Krauss - FULL VIDEO

[Music] hello and welcome to the origins podcast I'm your host Lawrence Krauss I have been a fan of Ricky Gervais is for a long time he not only makes me laugh he makes me think which is why I was so delighted when he agreed to appear in our film the unbelievers five years ago he's famous of course for his work as a comedian writer of hit series and movies and he had the most popular podcast in The world his most recent Netflix series afterlife is one of the most brilliant television series I've ever seen I've

enjoyed communicating with him about issues of science politics and society for a long time so I was really happy to have the chance to have an in-depth conversation with him for this podcast the result was brilliant and hilarious but he also provided deeply personal and illuminating reflections on modern life And about key influences on his career and on his comedy and halfway through he turned the tables on me and quizzed me on quantum physics and cosmology patreon subscribers can find the full video of this program in all our programs upon their release at patreon.com slash

origins podcast I hope my discussion with Ricky will cause you to laugh and think about the world in a slightly different way than you did before which after all is the Purpose of both art and science I hope you enjoy the show [Music] Ricky it's just great to have you here it's been a while since we'd film the unbelievers but it's just I'm just so happy to be able to have a chat with you it's been a long time where we communicate by direct message on Twitter a lot but it's nice to have a feel

this is more nerve-wracking yeah absolutely it's like being back at school or College or something well good good I admire you bye yeah good well that's exactly Pat hold that thought though because it it makes me feel stupid again because I get a false sense of security on Twitter oh I feel really smart oh I want to compared to those people we'll see we'll see I'll try we'll see I mean you may be surprised the first question I want to ask youse why are you a scientist because it seems me I'm serious over that's not

facetious it Seems to me you have the sensibilities of a scientist and you start in biology right yeah I do um I've sort of got two answers I'd like to think it was because I was lazy that that seems like a wave yeah yeah no but it might be that I'm not good enough I could have done something in science but I think a scientist I think I feel that's an elevation of what I was do you know I mean yeah no no I mean yeah I know I remember I took it like even a

10 Scientists yeah and then a million people who work in science yeah yeah you and I'd be one of those yeah and so I didn't want to be yeah and you got that sense when you were college that you um no I think I did it when I was good at it I've you know all through school I liked it was but I was interested in it and I became good it I don't know if I had naturally really or because I just I was really I was smart enough yeah yeah and I did when

I could my a-levels were Physics chemistry and biology excellent and I got into University College London my first choice I've got all the grades I needed amazingly and I went to do biology and then after two weeks you know there was 40 hours a week and there were nine o'clock lectures and I suddenly thought this isn't why I came to university I came to university they join a band and I felt that I think was I got a full grant and I was a working-class kid yeah I Definitely ticked that um 6% I was definitely

a quote they loved me well they said you could file working class and I think I probably did science a college-level vocationally I thought well if I were getting a free grand and I'm doing this exam I better be doing it because I can get a job after yeah yeah then I suddenly thought nah I do philosophy yeah exactly I was gonna quit philosophy we were guaranteed not to get a job exactly yeah which after a few Weeks I remember we were sitting around smoking and drinking and I was stressed I think I'd made the

wrong decision and I felt that I was I hated it I sort of I thought I'd done this I left school I want to be free yeah I 100 and I said to one of the guys said to name a letter the alphabet and he went P and I went philosophy philosophy and I got up and I went and long to the philosophy department and I said I want to do philosophy and I said sorry who are you I said them I'm doing science at the moment but I'm bored with that and on do philosophy

and they went right and I said I see if the professor's free and I had an interview with this guy and he said we've missed half the course and I said I'm really clever right and he went okay he said what is art and I can't remember my answer genuinely karma [ __ ] it was probably terrible and he went okay yeah come on well that was it it wasn't that terrible That was it yeah okay well I won't ask what is art well hey wait for that I still don't know you like it you

know if you like it I guess that's alright well yeah I've heard lots of definitions of art but philosophy is also not a light subject well I did I and I did enjoy it I'd like to argue anyway so I just thought that would be more told it gave me time to do what I was there for which was join a band which I did yes I got Signed and I thought I'd do the I'll do the degree from a mum yeah and I did it and I got my philosophy degree okay so your mum

wanted you do did she didn't want to be my mother one may be a doctor but I don't know of course so I think my mom like me doing science and I fact when I changed I went home for Christmas and bless her she'd bought me a big biology book on general sale and I went oh thanks I said I've swapped to her um philosophy and she went what's that and I said I say it doesn't matter I said I'm gonna be a pop star anyway and she went pop star is another word for junkie

very good [Laughter] I got a Dior record deal which was over as quickly so that was let's forget that but yes I now I'm back I'm what I've all done fast but it was my first love science I absolutely love science and it was actually really good for philosophy because I Swan through logic yeah exact Right through like really thinking about your stuff and then you know you can play with the mind-body problem and yeah sure and metaphysics and stuff well and you know and it's actually it's interesting cuz we're actually sitting in a philosophers

office by the way and entire if you're biased most is feeling it but but I was talking with the other day and and at the point is that I mean science was natural philosophy but the idea of critical thinking skepticism Analysis that I mean that when I think of what science is that's large part of science yet what science also has is experimenting which philosophy doesn't what of course it certainly uses the same I think thought yeah you know and but then there's a certain part of me that thinks philosophy can't do what science yes

is acts give me the answer yeah yeah well I can observe it and I know what I want to and I'm impatient Ya know I'm impatient I can relate I'm trying to get good at chess again something I think I should be good at but I'm not yeah right you know hey how can i how can a nine-year-old beat me I'm reading books and Jessica and and this and that and the theory that the night could be more useful in the endgame that all but except with the bishops I know just give me the answer

yeah yeah tell me the answer you know ratification with more moves than there Are particles in the universe yeah difficult does I want to give you the answer your computer can be you anyway so it doesn't matter right no yeah yeah annoys me well it could beat the best chess paper level three yeah oh can it and it's still a still so much smug about it when it takes my queen faster than these other moves Oh Jane it's cheating again well nobody guess so I love science and it's uh it's fascinating and I'm in awe

of it and It's it's gonna save the world obviously well it does I mean and you know I've had arguments by the way with philosophers because I basically said you know take quantum mechanics which is impossible to understand why oh good no physicist can understand it but they saw though it's good we do it we use it it doesn't matter and so I tell philosophers you can just talk about it for a hundred years and we'll just do things We'll build things yeah I know it works it works it works and that it works it

works yeah that's why science is so good because it works it's not that it's some special thing or does more important than music or literature or art courses but it was putting out there and seeing which was an evolution through natural selection yeah yeah it's a rat it works yeah it doesn't not as if we you know I tell people there's in in the state so We'll talk about this but you know they're fighting this evolution intelligent design nonsense in the States which I've been doing for years and it's like they think that scientists we

have some secret handshake like let's not pretend you know evolution as well there's so many things annoying about the you know evolution deniers yeah deny something with less evidence with me might but it's that yeah there's conspiracy the science about it for some Reason like I know and that obviously the it's just a theory there why did why did they use the word theory I know I know it's really hard to explain it well I always tell people gravity's just a theory so just walk out the window and see no work exactly it doesn't work

though because there ya know they'd know in that now that none of that stuff if people don't want to believe or don't want to listen but but but of all the things right Evolution finally it's really easy yeah it's an easy concept it's a coin sorter yeah you know it they it sure they're not rushing towards the hole they like they're going down the hole they can and you know yeah it still it's such a subtle concept now quantum physics ah yes it's impossible yeah no it is I've had this device just having discussion with

Richard Dawkins who says you know I mean who's who keeps saying the quantum physics is just impossible it's not even The fact that a lot of it is theoretical and balancing an equation and trying to find out what you know it's the even if you get that which I don't it's the scale yeah it's the Scout that's impossible when someone okay the other the end astronomy yeah when someone tells me something is a billion trillion miles away yeah I go okay but I haven't understood it you can't no one it's impossible no one can I'm

like a crow I count five yeah and see that Right you might maybe I can imagine a hundred yeah but a billion trillion was that it showed me on a scale it doesn't because I always think that people had politicians had to count the money they spend that it might know a billion might mean me I know it's it's just you've just gotta accept it and then the other way where you can just keep getting smaller and smaller when I was about eight or nine I used to lie awake at night try and imagine infinity

really I Wasn't a normal kid yeah that's great you know scientists again with and and I'd get there and I get there and I build a wall around it and then go what's over the wall I go oh okay let's either stop this long time exactly keep going to go as far as I could do good okay build a wall around that but no that's worse it's like we're my Woody Allen says eternity is a long time especially near the end that last bit I know I know it's just again you can't But the scale

but it's interesting you say that because one of the reasons I've talked to Richard about this I think we actually talk to the unbelievers about it that that one of the reasons people the concept of evolution is easy I agree with you it's just it's just you know coin toss but the what people don't buy is the scale the fact that you know it they can't they can do a hundred years maybe a thousand years but the idea of a billion years and the fact that things Change so imperceptibly that's the thing people don't buy

it's not they're gonna one frame of your film ago and what he's not even running yeah yeah well no he is yeah yeah exactly you just looked at yes a lot of a second but he is running and that's why it's yet but I think that's why it's not intuitive and it's said well I think the even people that find it hard to understand it was it was it Richards model that if you look at a picture of your granddad he looks a bit Like it and then eventually he's a fish yeah yeah you can

and no point there's no point where we're now that child of a fish is not a fish you know so and that's the you know everyone thinks suddenly that you know you're gonna have a child and it's a different species and it just doesn't work that way now so grab that but then there's levels of stupid because I get the tweets I've been watching the chimps in the zoo for four years now ya know one of them Really really I remember testifying in Texas you been some moments on my you know my ancestor you know

my answer isn't a monkey and I felt like saying well if anyone's ancestors a monkey I think I know and also that the trying to explain that we're not more evolved yet than anything we're yeah yeah and and that we're not and the notion that that evolution has a direction that it's always better that we're more yeah that we're better than Cockroaches well you know if there's a nuclear war the cockroaches will still be around and where it won't be they obviously they mean more intelligent yeah and and we yeah we and and it's helpful

toll to survive to pass on your genetic yes all it is yeah it is it was may in the long run it may be as an evolutionary imperative it may be bad in the end was sometimes fair this is disadvantage yeah yeah that's right but the other one is again I used to be Quite militant and and I used to ridicule people when they said them if we evolved from chimps then why they're still chimps yeah now I answer it like it's an intelligent question yeah I say we didn't evolve from modeling Apes we evolve

with them rather like cousins yeah and and it doesn't do any good but it makes me feel better cuz I wasn't being nasty I think yeah yeah you know yeah no no I certainly would do it genuinely and I think they don't get it Yeah it don't get it and that's fine well it's it I think it takes all types I've talked to its but that's - I mean sometimes you have to sort of jar people in order to get them to think about things but I think you're absolutely right some talking people with respect

at least is yeah because you know it's not it's not so much stupidity often it's just ignorance and that's a big difference if it's people just have one thousand it's fun yeah because we could Say the intelligence and education is a bit of luck that we that we got there and so but yeah people some people don't want to know yeah because it doesn't fit with their well that's one of the big problems with much of organized religion or some of work I have a lot of different problems with it but one is this notion

that you don't want your kids to know how the world really works for fear that they lose their faith don't ya I don't want to teach them we Don't want them to learn anything because they might change if there's another that's out of the level of wild why as well because they think that losing the faith is equated with badness yeah yeah so you know and and you know and some people genuinely believe that you won't go to heaven if you don't believe so they're actually they think they're doing a good thing I'm saving my

child yeah yeah from hell yeah well now you know I mean I dye it so I think when People do most other times when people do bad things they're actually thinking they're doing a good thing they they have a rational rationalization for it I mean if you miss the parents who don't let their kids to get blood transfusion that's more religious I mean they're not trying to kill their kids they know they think they're doing the right thing and yeah that's the problem you know I mean that's one of my favorite forms of evolution people

who refuse Kids obviously doesn't shine that is child well we wanna do it absolutely yeah we want them to refuse before they have kids what exactly sounds yeah as an eye though yeah we want to make sure they don't they don't reproduce but at but you know that's part of the problem I talked to someone else we've talked to Noam Chomsky and he used to say that with me that that he didn't care what people believe it's what they do that matters but but the problem is what you Believe affects what you do so when

you have these crazy beliefs like I'm doing some are you a favor by by not allowing you have a transit transfusion I ultimately do silly things and so that's the reason it seems to me that's the reason to be grounded reality at some level because you don't do silly things of course yeah but but but he's right as well if people just believe silly things it's not a problem it's when they act on them yeah but we all and I see and I i Net I've never had a problem with spirituality or people believing in

any God or or whatever or which isn't war long just but if they start infringing on my rights to play out there yeah Alice's then that's when I've got a say in it yeah but the prior yeah I know I agree but I guess my problem is that no one's an island I mean so inevitably if you have these crazy beliefs you have kids or you have neighbor and you and you impose on others and so at some Level then of course what we should say that most religious people are normal they just happen to

believe in God and we think they're wrong but you know I've often said if if and and nice religious people nice normal religious people of England types well yeah you know the bits to ignore in your eyeball yeah and then they'd something shows yeah if you know the bad bits yeah you look good yeah you don't need it yeah yeah yeah so yeah and we you know that's what we call We call extremist fundamentalists that the people who believe the bad bits yeah in their holy book as well they don't realize that if you if

you took well we used to if you took the Old Testament literally it's a horrible thing and you and your people complain about Islam and Muslim but if you took the Old Testament installing it I mean but people always take choose pick and choose what they want to you know there was a certain time people choose their own religion Yeah if they don't like a bit in their religion they modify and it's in a church and it this one can drink and eat that's my religion yeah exactly oh so it not so much nowadays but

you know there's there's modern sex wiping up all over but the ancient ones were definitely made by the people in charge to better themselves just like polishes and today stitch up what's right and wrong yeah you know yeah it's uh you Create your morality if you're in charge you create morality that's right if you yeah and yeah sure everyone else of course yeah but you know it's there was an interesting survey done in the UK which was asking people on in the census one of the good things about the census was for the first time

I think almost 50% of the people said they didn't have a religion or they were members of the Church of England and they asked people why why do you say you're you're Christian do you believe in transubstantiation or the virgin and people would say no no no no and they say well why and they say I like to think of myself as a good person yeah so for most people being religious just means yeah they've respectability in them yeah it's a shortcut and it and that's why they pass it on to their kids because I

think they're you know um I've said before you know my mum was she was she was mildly village again COV Religion yeah yeah go to church and you're a good person you're a cool person and usually you know for a working class mum Jesus is an unpaid babysitter yeah yeah if I can't watch you he can and you take that for a while and it's it it's fine and I don't think it's particularly harmful outside academia yeah then then you realize that it's just not true in each of the stats of religious people in prisons

to atheists but you know it doesn't it Doesn't add up you know and morality predates all religion you know we we got on before we had to make the rules yeah yeah I think if there's one thing I would love to be able to get across to people is that you don't I mean morality is in principle ultimately is something we develop and we we tune our religion to fit the morality we have I mean we don't need to believe in God to be good yeah and and I'm actually a Precisely even people believe that

yeah yeah I think they know that but you know it so there's a friend - physicist Steve Weinberg who went nobel prize but he's he's an atheist and he said I'll paraphrase him but he probably said them so they're good people and bad people good people do good things bad people do bad things when good people do bad things it's religion it's interesting because yeah you can motivate yourself because of a belief that somehow there's A Divine Right to do something but of course yeah you know you're burning people or you know whatever it is

yeah that's not always the case but it certainly can motivate you to do bad things and justify it because of our your table because you know that that's that's the purest form of brainwashing yeah yeah when you're a kid your brains a sponge and your parents tell you don't go near the fire don't go near the spider don't go near the thing if you do That you go to hell what and if it's and it's it's it's laid down you know and and they know waited to all those other things that are true and observable

and and you know you shouldn't go near a lion and yeah all that sort of stuff and and if you're never you know when you're eight years old and you say is there really a sound fresco no don't tell you the whole system but they don't do that with God something yeah it's really good they think it's It's better be bad for you do you an atheist in society and it and in some places it is yes I mean we're I mean in spite of the problems we're just lucky we can that we can even

have this conversation of course of human history we couldn't even had this conversation yeah and walked out of the room alive it's my only thing I can hold on to that I'm oppressed yeah yeah there's 13 countries I can't even visit I'm impressed Okay well it's nice we are gonna be your like victims that I don't want to go there anyway yeah that's probably there the 13 countries I don't want to go to so it's worked out really well they did they have Netflix in those countries yes well you know but it's but it's interesting

and and and I've said this and you know that in some sense teaching religion to kids as child abuse because and and I just learned a quote the other day from the Wesley it was from the the Archer fish Canterbury who said educating children is like engraving and stone and that it's really hard to outgrow because yeah kids aren't I mean that question is a deep question apparently and a kid you know it's not even that it works yeah it's that you were given to it as as truth when you know you before you could

talk about things and they're not here right you know host rather than it's yeah you know and and and I remember it Was actually Richard who alerted me to this I never thought of that there's a picture in the paper he showed of a Christmas time of four little kids and and it's really sweet there's it says a Muslim kid and a Jewish kid and and a Catholic kid and a pause and kid and they're all playing together you say hold on a second a three-year-old it's like that's not a Catholic kid that's a three-year-old

it's just I think it's a neoliberal kid Yeah it's just kid and we enable them and they and that becomes their goals and yeah yes so you were you as far as I was reading you were eight you went to church you were eight and then do you make a decision not to go at that point no I still went I was I was I went um because I got paid for being in a choir ah that was about 14 I just kept it quiet that was no theists I'll take the money sure absolutely not

easier atheist got Got away like everybody else exactly yeah no and I remember the moment as well um III I believed in God because I thought everyone did and that was it yeah yeah me too and everyone around me yeah things I thought it was on the telly every way it was god yes it made it all but yeah I I was still that I knew about evolution and all those things yeah you know I just thought he just started it yeah yeah I'm sure there was no real justice no exactly yeah um So and

I think I like Jesus more cuz he was a bit of a superhero I liked him because he was kind and he yeah sure he'd you know he he could walk on water and did things yeah helps he helped me it's cool yeah in fact I liked him more I liked his human half more than his god ha I don't offend anyone that's right you don't um but I was doing Bible studies and my brother was 11 years older than me so I was about eight and he was about 19 and he came in And

he looked and he said why do you believe in God then and my mum went Bob and I knew she was hiding something oh and I was and I thought yeah and then I started thinking about all the things I've been taught versus all the things in science I've been taught and I thought oh yes course it's just like Sanna yeah I mean it's it's so you had the moment for me it was just kind of a you know I'd like to believe and I and I want and then I just started this story Started

seem to be seem a little wilder and wilder and it was like Sam eventually yeah seemed like was unlikely to be true was a cathartic moment it wasn't a PIFAN II for me it was just sort of a no but you had an older brother that had that influence yeah so he did your mom was your mum when did you come out to your mother I think it was just easier then I don't think I did I didn't really talk about it because it just wasn't talked yeah it was a big Deal you went to

church because it was a cent yeah I was a cultural Jew in my moment same you know yeah exactly it's not it's there you know it with everyone's a bit lapse is that everyone I know at to find a church to get married in yeah yeah yeah because they that might trip might search for religion end when I found someone who would marry us my wife wasn't religion it was a club yeah it was like a club that you had to get through to get Married and out of a christening and yeah it was a

social occasion it wasn't no one really thought I mean some people did but you know and I think that more and more if you asked people what they really believed in you know um people have found this thinking that Agnes ism is a polite term yeah and I try and explain they're not mutually exclusive one deals with knowledge one deals with belief yeah yeah so fact I just edit an old book about atheism and and this guy Said you know agnostic atheism is unscientific which is but but and but agnosticism isn't but the point is

what hadn't I hadn't appreciated till I read this particular book and I wrote a foreword for it that agnosticism is atheist because agnosticism is just saying the evidence doesn't convince me I don't don't know yeah I don't know I'm not it's not fashionable make me buddy don't believe yeah and what and then there's a Form of Ethan's and faithful saying I don't know but I believe yeah yeah okay yeah and I think the thing the mistake comes when people say that atheism is unscientific is because they think atheism means I know there's no God exact

as opposed to I don't believe in any of your gods so far yeah but convince me I get tweets um if they prove God existed would you believe then I'll go of course I would yeah yeah and it would be the greatest scientific Discovery ever ever exactly now forget everything else that you don't give the prize anymore don't give the that's the one that's done yeah it's nice yeah exactly we've had people say what would it take I said it tonight the stars realigned yeah and said I'm here it didn't have been English it could

be an Aramaic you know whatever ironically atheist would all believe yeah right yeah all the other religions wouldn't it be the wrong Guy exactly wrong God exactly yeah exactly it's like NASA we never landed on the moon it's really fake there yeah they did that just to do that you know it's so your mom is it has always been fine then with bit you mean she's I guess she had to tolerate you because you she said she listened she just hoped that we didn't get killed in a barroom fight and did okay yeah and it

was all about the kids you know it's just you know be just be nice and don't don't die Don't die that's a great thing I was it so I use anything well it's [ __ ] eight years anything yeah yeah yeah and I don't know if it's the same here but there was a study done of about two thousand adults of of an atheist where the just the word less trusted than anyone except for rapists yeah it was joined button with right peace in America wasn't yeah yeah it was this to end it was just

yet of sad it's that notion of that I also it Makes me laugh they think atheism is extremism because you don't believe in any God yeah yeah where is leaving one yeah excuse one extreme is yeah you know what you by the way what you said to me unbelievers the things you said I thought where the month where the man the best things we got but it was exactly that idea as you said I just it's just one extra god I don't believe it I point out exactly yeah and and this whole idea That we're

called mill our Mills into atheist I don't know what that means if you throw pamphlets at people or something or books or something but what does it what is it Mills into atheist anyway they don't realize the irony yeah in that statement yeah well what we've seen militant religious people hi other one the other one is uh what annoys me now is a new atheist yeah because they're trying to equate that with bigotry yeah yeah sure I mean any the Thing is right new atheist extreme atheist what it means is atheists who refuse to be

burnt at the stake yeah yeah that's what it means yeah we're not a shame yeah exactly but they've been around a long time people have been haven't been buying this stuff for a long time yeah yeah I think it's more we're born i theist yeah yeah exactly we are we born atheists um yeah that's right and unlike what what my old friend Christopher Hitchens used to say About there I hope what he found so awful about at the time about religion was it said you're born ill but you're commanded to be well and that a

notion where you actually didn't do anything wrong until you do it it's that you're not boring having been it's also it's also a very worrying trait yeah to first someone to believe that babies aren't innocent yeah yes a bit worrying isn't it yeah yeah it's it's really sick and unfortunately I think it's probably Traumatic for many kids my ex-wife was a Catholic and I remember the first time she went to church and and they told her that her soul was like a lung you know and it started out white but you do all these you

know sins and by the time you're that they're her that age when she was gonna go to confirmation it was you know it was black and you had to do these things to try no it was just tremendous traumatic really scary it's really scary I'm happy yeah that part About having grown up Jewish at least there wasn't that that stuff I never I never I just got told that you know all these bad things happened and we were in the Old Testament is is not the first of all of Judaism isn't it yeah yeah yeah

but it didn't but there wasn't no no no no and yes saw hell and those things I never really heard about that when I was growing up yeah so the New Testament was trying to make it less Jewish for yeah for everyone else Exactly yeah yeah I got from the Old Testament supposedly that well we're better than ever yeah yeah yeah well Jesus in my church look like Brad Pitt yeah well then why okay well okay i think enough well we'll talk about to talk a little bit about having enough religion already enough religion already

we've given it too much air time already but but i want to ask you know your brother influenced you there you brought I think you said your Brother was the funniest person you'd have growing up he was the first person I saw saying things undermining societal norms being being funny and irreverent and impolite and I thought and you know and it worked you know yeah sure and you know the first person you answer back to was your parents and he always it back you know he got sent to bed yeah I remember thinking no he

was right yeah and I thought I lost the argument okay he said a few truths yeah yeah yeah Yeah exactly yeah they could had no recourse right so yeah I certainly did he do you think that did I guess the answer is obvious but did that had an impact on you dude well you know everything does yeah my older brother was sort of quiet and and and smart and and and that had an influence on me you know I quite liked the idea of academia from there my sister I felt like I was an experiment

because some and my sister taught me to read when I was three I Remember the teachers showing other parents that making me read like I was in this gold right and so they all had a an influence on me and I think that's because being the youngest hasn't it I was the youngest Oh or more comedians the youngest chill out to be heard yes yeah me show you but there must be something else and and your boundaries have already been pushed a little bit yeah you know you get an easier life the lifes of bowl

of Cherries but you just have to be heard yeah and you sort of see the absurdity of life by watching your older brothers interact with your parents and stuff like that and that sometimes can go far too far the other way because there was a danger that I was almost like an only child yeah eleven years yeah I hold my shoulders you standard so it goes 11 13 14 oh wow um I'm ever asking my mum when I was about 13 why my brothers and sisters so Much older than me and she said because you're

a mistake yeah yeah I want to say okay if we're doing some that they're all a mistake yeah yeah yeah you say I've seen the wedding picture yeah so the influence yeah but um well that's a bob was always the clown mucking around pushing the boundaries saying the things you shouldn't but healing of anybody's butt did I don't know what when he'd eventually go up to what he did did he have an academic or did he know my older Brother became a teacher yeah he's retired now and my sister it also works in a teacher

profession with them kids with learning difficulties and staff work and well that's really takes a lot of patience yeah yeah have a hard time doing that my brother was a painter and decorator I mean he still still work yeah teacher do you think did in a sense that but they're doing comedy you're a teacher uh secretly I like it to do more than just Make you laugh yeah and that is the main aim you've got to do that yeah sure can't forfeit that yeah other thing yes but if I can do I do like to

make them think as well and I do like it to resonate and I do like them to you know think of it the next day I don't just be throw away and they have an hour and a half and then they go back and they forget everything I said and it was good and they just laughed because you can tickle yourself with a feather yeah you Know I mean yeah absolutely um so I do try and sneak in something and I think that they feel that they've gone through more of a process and that's why

I deal in taboo subjects as well but yeah I think I want to take them to a place they haven't been before exactly I think comedy is surprised and yeah okay and I do feel like when I start on a contentious subject hmm I feel the tension like oh is this gonna be alright or will be allowed to laugh And I take them through a scary forest and out side and it's always okay and they few yeah and I think I think that's the important thing because I've often said um that people get offended when

they mistake the subject of a joke with the actual target yeah and they're not necessarily the same thing you can make jokes about any subject it depends what the joke is yeah there's no there's no rules you can't joke about it you can You should you just can yeah okay and there's nothing sacred well that at the point there's nothing sacred so everything should be everything should be subject to ridicule yeah I mean as to even just to force you to understand think about it more I know but people then they go wow um yeah

we shouldn't other people's feelings we can if their feelings are wrong yeah yeah yeah if you don't like the facts good yeah change the facts change the feeling yes you Know and also then they trying to this thing oh you should um you should never you should never punch down it you should punch up well who's to say what's up and down it yeah yeah it's a your your your deciding who's down and who's up no no youyou do you don't get to do that ya know and so there's this whole thing nowadays about about

not offending people and and and people feeling uncomfortable in the states is a big thing with sort of target words and safe Zones people don't want to hear anything a word that they don't like how an arrogant are you to think that you deserve to go through life with no one ever saying anything that you don't agree with or like it's not it's you know but I think it's probably it's at least it's in the States I think it's a property of upbringing where parents sort of convince their kids when I was growing up I

we played in the streets right but now you don't go in the Streets it's dangerous nothing should ever you should never take any risks and nothing should ever you shouldn't do anything that might might hurt you in any way or make you uncomfortable in any way and it you know education and science the purpose of this 12 under sense humor yeah it makes you bulletproof yeah you don't have you don't have to pave the jungle yeah you can just grow a pair and have a laugh about it exactly Yeah on the offense and I think

that's what you know my wife is always doing that if you've been someone they in some sense they on the offense Stephen Fry said it you know I offend you well you have no special rights because I offend you you can and you can decide what you're gonna do you can laugh about it yeah or you can you can speak to me about it and say you know what you heard me or you can go or he can go home and fester about that For ten years and then later on complain and and and it's

trying to make I'm offended sound important yeah it's no different to saying I've got a pain in my leg yeah I believe you yeah but there's net this thing to do with me yeah I mean you know I the question is are is one trying to attentionally offend sometimes never sometimes you know maybe it's like being religious sometimes you're trying to do it to help someone yeah I mean in the Sense of getting think about baby I mean yeah I do and I understand well that's the other thing yeah people try and give ideas right

yeah exactly so you're not allowed to offend there you know they jump in the way of the bullet and say why you shooting at me yeah if someone who's insults maths I don't know yeah and sold or we like yeah it works yeah exactly if you're so fragile that you think that A joke about someone can destroy it well you you you need something else then it's nonsense and now people saying you know people mistake sometimes demanding equality right by not being part of humor yeah it's actually demanding privilege yeah it's it's nonsense but I

I agree it's it's someone says they're offended I want people to stop saying that jokes offensive yeah I wanted to start saying I found it offensive because you've got our own the emotion Because that's all it is you're telling me how you feel about it yeah there's nothing intrinsically offensive about this Joe it's a words it's ideas and I know it no exactly yeah and you know I was actually listening to them and and they can be offensive at certain occasions not I was listening to our podcast years of and and I guess what Stephen

said was talking he were talking about words and and you could say [ __ ] and tits yeah this depends on The context right of course yeah I mean you know a bird and and the tits are little birds or something yeah exactly yeah yeah but it also in them to be polite they Asterix out the you yeah in [ __ ] yeah right like it's exactly and actually in that regard I'm always amazed that when people take offense at these kind things in our it actually there was a someone just wrote my stepdaughter school

saying we're gonna show this film and and it's got You know it's got serious notions but it also had you know some some sexual language in it but don't worry we've taken out the sexual language and I just think you know we let we put we restrict movies because they have sex in them but we don't if we could when people are being stabbed in the eye or their head is black I think it was training day I was watching in America I was in the gym once believe it or not and it was like

2 p.m. in the morning and there's a scene There way he's going [ __ ] you know [ __ ] you but yeah and they changed that to forget you right and then he shot him in the heart [Laughter] [Laughter] yeah that's really well but you know what's kind of nice is that one can use comedy I think to talk about things which which would otherwise be a concern but it gives you an in in good that's what the well that's what humans for it Gets over bad stuff yeah if you can't joke about bad

stuff well what kind of that that's exactly what it's more you know it um it sharpens our our claws you know it makes it it keeps us fighting for the real world it also gives you license as an either an entertainer or as a public figure of course yes you understand things yeah well I think it was some a Picasso that said are is a lie that helps you understand the truth so all These things in a metaphor poetry jokes satire they aren't there they are teaching you something whether you know it or not it's

neat it's sneaking in learning yes see now I didn't meet you to the philosophy program there was the art yeah that was really clever people well let me know but that's often what you need to get in school it's really interesting to say that but or at least appreciating what's what are good ideas and bad that's that or itself as an Interesting in and take some some learning or Seeley's some experience to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff yeah well it's I mean and and and obviously the problem comes that we're all

different mm-hm and our is subjective yeah yeah comedy or whatever what's funny what phase is where people find funny it depends upon their experience and their and the mood there generally day and so many other things That I don't think you should be ashamed of finding anything funny yeah because it's not your fault that's what you are yeah if you see someone fall over the street and you laugh you can then feel but it was obviously funny yeah they can't deny it yeah I I see it with audiences they laugh and then they go oh

my god I should know should I have yeah I don't know what if you laughed you should have well you know my great feeling yeah it's A great feeling and there must be and there's got to be an evolutionary purpose right I mean I think so well it has to be I mean we at humor and anthropologists think the first joke was one caveman seeing another caveman bump his head yeah because it's about empathy yeah yeah and I think I think comedy can be about empathy um because I think comedy is often laughing at the

wrong thing because you know what the right thing is okay that's it and so you feel Good I'll get that yeah I get that yeah and it is undermining societal norms yes what's funny that's what you know that's what the surprise is that's what the misdirection is that's what we find funny somewhat that shouldn't have happened or doesn't usually happen and that's why the funniest person you know isn't a professional comedian yeah it's without your grant under your uncle because someone has to walk in the pub and you see your uncle do a second and

You're laughing because you know what he's thinking and it's about empathy because you go I know why you're not in your laugh is weak or something because you know him and that's a shared moment yeah it's lovely about it because it's about humanity yeah comedy is about humanity because if it's not about you money it's not funny it's that way called this special humanity I know maybe it was a just a plug yeah but it is it has to be where We see everything through our eyes you know we we you know we personify and

it was actually for me by the way it was my uncle I mean where my uncle I just bought he just passed away and I just spoke at his funeral a week ago and but he was the first person I saw it was funny and I thought wow I mean and he said and it so effective I thought grow up and be like that I mean I course yeah you want people that love their warriors they're Not scared they're it breaks down the barriers it all no door is it and it and death is funny

yeah well it's funny cuz it's gonna happen to all of us yeah you know and we shared it and we know that you're I know you're scared about it yeah you're scared you're scared as me yeah you know and I think the people think that that I don't fear death no no I fear I fear death yeah I don't fear being dead yeah it's the beauty of being dead you don't Know about it yeah you know it's like what when people ask me you know well what happens you die I say well what what was

it like before you were born exactly yeah you like that that's just exactly like that it's like being stupid it's only painful for others so speaking of death um after life which you know I already wrote you personally it was just the most brilliant thing I mean I've seen on TV i haven't seen this week's game of thrones so i shouldn't Say but but no it's just unbelievably great it's just in every way and and i will say this to publicly i thought whoever wrote that has got to be a really nice guy i mean

no really it just the it's just so much it's it the way it meshes comedy and serious questions but issues in a in an empathetic way i just is brilliant it's about humanity again it's it's about humanity but you use the debt use death and yeah and um and and and There's some atheism in there and and so i sort of apply on the on the title because i think was important that the character didn't think that his wife was up in heaven looking down yeah um it didn't have that comfort yeah yeah so he

knew this was it and he'd lost everything so the question is is life still worth living when you've lost them yes and that's what i'm saying it is this was a this was a journey to find out it was and it's complicated Complicated so we i mean i like to say hey the fact that we're just here a moment in the sun fact that there's no purpose my life for me that happens to enrich my life it makes every moment more precious but i can see for other people they say what a tragedy and it's

nice to take people through that yeah well I think that as well I think that is you say we didn't exist for thirteen not billion then we have this 400 trillion to one Shot with that sperm in that egg and us being us yeah for 80 90 years if we're lucky to experience everything just for the hell of it yeah just for the hell of it yeah because we can yeah why not yeah because we won't and then we go back to not existing again yeah forever and we enjoy that moment if exist and I

think people take offense because they think that I'm they feel that as an affront and they go how dare you say that I'm not gonna go down yeah yeah I'm Not saying you're not gonna heaven yeah I'm saying that there is no believe it if you want yeah it's because death is heaven yeah peace and quiet and that's [ __ ] happy all your relatives and all the people murderers yes who said sorry on the deathbed [ __ ] that was not happen exactly I always thought about that why do people think living for an

eternity would be heaven I mean anyone your best friend but much less your in-laws or any onion yeah it's very turn again it's Eternity as a hell of a long time it's not just yeah it's not a hundred and fifty seven assists dragging on a bit by the way you know I wonder whether you found it hard to play in afterlife you play someone who speaks his mind without a filter how on earth did you did you go could you say that and you say that but actually I don't speak my mind I know I'm

I bite my tongue every thirty seconds because I'm not a psychopath and I worry about the consequences so you Know when I mugged I hand over the money yeah yeah because they might have a knife or yes you know or you might be with someone who them or they know where I live but um you know obviously Tony my character he's got nothing to lose so he goes bring it on yeah you know so I think the comedy and the drama comes from us living vicariously through his freedom that we haven't got because you know

we we do worry about people's feelings and we do Worry about being right and honest and and I think as I go on as a as a writer or comedian all I care about now again the funny still first yeah sure but next is am I being as honest as I could be that's in how am I being is really stripped out gotta be honest and brave am I being as honest and brave as I could be because that's that's all that matters now it is you well I guess do you think because it's it's

easier because you have such Great success it gives you more opportunity to be honest and brave then then would you been more afraid of it when you were breaking into the yeah you could say the other way that you know you have more to lose and yes person you can everything go everyone goes for you but so what I try and do is try and make what I say defendable and you know bulletproof now I've got to worry about what I say being defendable in in ten years time people grown back and find It's your

own beat was career but I don't care you know I love the fact you know that you one of the things I admire and you're in a position where you can do that it when I you know when I'm associated with an institution like university I can't do that and that you're you respond to ridiculous tweets and you you know and you just say you say what he's be said and and and without it seems to me without fear of later on being on the profile deep Platform for having said something well I just think

that um I don't want to be beholden to anyone yeah yeah it's no I just don't work for anyone I don't actually tell you to that's one I was motivated it was it was actually you in a way that made me think about doing this podcast and and working just for myself with through this because it gives you so much more freedom to be able to do the things you want to do of course because you're not beholding a Bit because I'm I was I respect the law yeah and I respect honesty and I know

with all these there's there's already a load of caveats to freedom of speech yeah yeah you know I agree with libel and slander yeah I agree with those I agree with protecting children I believe with the watershed I agree with it I win with food additives I agree you know I agree with all the things what I don't agree with is you shouldn't say summer in case it hurts someone's feeling Somewhere well [ __ ] that yeah well the whole point in which we try and I try to lately in the United States is more

and more under tack unfortunates the right wing there at least defending a little bit yes no [ __ ] freedom of speech is just saw to protect speech you don't like you don't suspect peace you like it's designed to respect to say someone you say that's horrible if you don't believe in expecting that the freedom of speech For people who say things you don't agree with you don't agree with freedom of speech and it's this nonsense that I did a tweet recently that I said I'm a typical lefty liberal snowflake champagne socialist kind of guy

and a racist a nice Xer and yet when I defend freedom of speech I'm suddenly alright yeah when did that happen yeah it's crazy well and it's but it is crazy and it's worries me in the states that the people who because of this safe Zone issue the fact that people who want to be uncomfortable they're there in fact there was a u.s. University I heard this my wife was telling me this said a speaker came in and he was speaking on due process and freedom of speech and they created a safe zone so people

didn't have to hear and I say and that's but that's hurting the the left because the rights a you know Trump it's like a monkey on a typewriter everyone does something right every now and then he Actually issued an executive order which is without teeth but never less saying that if universities didn't respect freedom of speech they wouldn't get federal funding but it's but it's sad when it has to be Trump that says that but it's yeah it's crazy that it's colleges but is that you know the sea of Education and progress and you know

that's odd that it's there you think do they devote you think they'd have their backs against the wall will aiming torch Is saying keep away with what would be the last battery and it's odd and it's in it's actually art yes that's that's you know have you do you do college can did you do college campuses or you know do that on your that wouldn't stand up towards or anything like that do that I don't but that's because we don't really have them like you do in America immediately no I mean you've never been a

situation but said well what you can't come we don't want you just to and now I Don't think I don't I don't think anywheres I mean I've played a few colleges but I think they're I think because I their private theater around but most have I haven't walked into a Student Union and said I want to show you some truths I did yeah I think people think that of me like I've run into churches and going it's all yes yeah I don't do that I don't know what they don't care copies on yeah pours on

You that you were spared but when you come to see one of my gigs that's my church yeah you know this is like your your only choice is leaving yeah really yeah and I think that and Annie nah you know that is your any choice you know you know the only form of censorship is your right not to listen yeah it's a cool it's amazing when people come come to hear you or come to read you and they say that's offensive and you think yeah why do you bother you know you know Actually there was

a situation that happened to be here in the UK probably the most terrifying thing I've done I I it was a very nice group here asked me to do a debate on atheism versus Islam and and they were very respectful to me but one of the things was that people told me they were gonna segregate it between male/female I said you're not going to do that and they said no we're not going to do that and they and then I went in and there was a separate door For men in separate door of women separate

and I said I just went and I said I'm not I'm not I'm not gonna do this and I'm gonna walk out and they put a lot of a lot of publicity so I walked out and of course they had me come back in and mixed and well I said you've got mixed up in some kids moved and and there was a big kerfuffle I mean someone to as always there was someone on a camera and the good news was that that that this got in the Papers and actually ended up this group it was

soon as the university calls London I think it was at a public it was this it was at a secular environment and they eventually got told they couldn't do that anymore but what happened was at the end of it there was a question period and and there were a bunch of women in burkas and one of them is very upset saying why did you force me to sit next to a man and I said look you didn't come here you could have this is gonna Be on the web you could you could have stayed home

if your you had the choice if you went to a football game as you call here was gonna say soccer but a football game here you know that you know don't have that choice so you you're you and and you can moved it's your choice but but people you know so that that idea that somehow people go out of their way to listen to you or read you and then be and then be offended by you and want to and want to Stop you from saying what you're gonna say is a worrisome thing yeah it

is very odd and but you know again I've said this is just cuz your offender doesn't mean you're right some people are offended by a quality some people offended by mixed marriage you know it's like it doesn't mean anything yeah it doesn't mean and and again if your your beliefs are cool but if they infringe on a human rights or our rules or you know it we decided that we want To live by and by the law then then there's a problem in and I think people who said with a secular society yeah a secular

science society would protect everyone's right to worship whatever God they wanted yeah yeah and it's the only site that would yeah really ancient Rome used to do that that was a and there's a great book that just came out of it by Katherine Ixion it's a terrifying on how Christianity destroyed the classical world in a way that made Isis look tame because the Roman in Greek they did they won more God great bring it on it was you know no problem and they effectively in a hundred years room I think I'd want to be true

but I think Christians were called atheists yes yeah because they didn't yeah yeah yeah you yeah yeah but they but they very effectively change things so that it was now no longer all of the gods wrong and they very effectively and viciously removed every Remnant of the classical world of statues and people and it was really and so you know that notion that you know it's okay you're right it a good society say okay you know you bring it on I just think that it's a slippery slope and you know you're always one step away

from book-burning yeah yeah they always you in step way yeah and and but but to get back to you saying people think you go into churches and do that the in the tweets and I think this was the point I Was trying to get out when I did my little I was trying to remember why I gave that talk gave that I has following me too yeah and the tweets that are most that are most how could I say not offensive but most direct are when you responding to someone of course made a point of

trying to bait you what I talk about this on humanity them you know people have to be they can be following me without me yeah and then get offended by one of my Tweets yeah that's like going into a town square and seeing a notice guitar lessons and you going but I don't [ __ ] want guitar listen that way I never hear you say that and that's so brilliant it's true and people say why do you keep forcing your ideas among people I go no no you have to be following me to hear about

my I'm not running a church I'm not in schools I'm not on you know if you don't like me just don't follow me don't listen to me You've basically come in my house yeah and asked me if I'm an atheist and her wife said yes and you've gone why are you forcing me leave just leave it leave it said I suddenly thought of this connection honesty it just occurred to me that I see a thread and here yeah I love that film and what was it called something about lying there you mention it yeah and

it's interesting there that here was someone I wanted 'only resonated we mean you talk about comedy Being being able to say things that are that are outrageous but go against social mores and end and being able to lie with you know it's like magic being able lie by tell the truth and yeah when did that come into writing that to that movie at all in that notion well I do think that I mean the big move there that everyone picks on in the events of line is obviously when I in then religion when I tell

my mother that there is a lovely place where she'd go To because I feel because she's scared about - yeah yeah and I'm pretty sure that's how spirituality started sure yeah and then it got carved up and became organized and a business and and all those things they you know it's wrong with religion yeah that's not wrong with spirituality and but it was it was more again it was quite an academic upshot and I think comedy is an intellectual pursuit not uh not an emotional one and I think once you start You know worrying about

what the audience think or trying to get them on your side with a part of your political beliefs or whatever you're not doing comedy anymore you're losing some work immediately you're rallying yeah if you're looking for agreement you're not doing an thing yeah and I and I think sensible people can laugh at things they don't agree with because they get the joke and and and I think that's that's true in Any in any art form you it yeah you should be trying to I mean yeah if you're trying to get people to to follow you

one for performing it at the Sydney Opera House and people there was questioned merits that people said how can be how can you get people to follow you and and I was there with Richard again and we said we're not trying to get me we're just trying to get people to think yeah and I think if you it must be the same it's the same in comedy Anything you do I mean music which you were involved in you're trying to get people to to yeah reflect you're not trying to get them like I'm also you

know I'm not a politician I'm I'm not a leader I'm I'm not these people's parents I'm not trying them to you know to change their ideas I'm just doing it I'm doing it because it's fun because I believe it and and it's my job it makes me money um you know the the the only thing I do for free probably is to get People to change their mind over is like a similar animal Croix and but no most of the time I'm having a laugh or else OPR are exercising my right to say what I

think well that's you know I tell people that's why I do science that's why most people I don't do science is not look I mean some people are trying to save the world and that's great but I think I do science cuz I like it and if you don't like it you couldn't do it well I mean it's just fun for me and It's anime sound very you know selfish but it's just no you know that is why you do what you do I think there's no difference to people who are trying to find out

a mathematical equation you know someone who cures all cancers and they were doing it because they could and they're interested and they want to find the answer like you do a crossword to complete the puzzle yeah and obviously with science you can never complete the puzzle yeah because but There's always another one but the journey is the fun part look at James it's academic it's fun it's exciting it's a yeah it's what it's one of the reasons for living yeah it's amazing to find stuff out it's this a hot it's orgasmic that's our high experience

is incredible anytime you you you discover something hey you know it's just feels good it feels good and it feels good in everything it feels good when you hit the ball and tennis for the First time oh oh that's it I'll never forget that yeah riding a bike I'm riding a bike you know it's it's like it's amazing to to get good at stuff and find stuff out or to try and get good at stuff and it never ends you know it particularly frustrated back to evolution again when people say where's the missing link I

go when I find the missing link you'll have two missing four missing link yeah it's great it's like yeah you know I can't win you can't Win yeah well it's it's it's and up science has been wrong though science has never been wrong scientists have been wrong yes and that's a big difference scientists and the people and and it's grissom that's like a diss to science they corrects itself yeah no no that's that's why dog was bad yeah yeah I tell people that you know they get really the revolution it it that's the way you

become famous on you by proving your Colleagues wrong it's not yeah you go in every day and in some sense you want to prove your colleagues wrong yeah yourself or yourself you're still in fact that's fine men said that that's the that's probably the best thing that's reason I like I sort of want kids to be exposed to Sciences so in science you try and prove yourself right but you try equally hard to prove yourself wrong and that's so useful in the rest of life is to say well you know I believe that But but

is it because I like the idea or is it right but it's madness yeah you don't you don't do it in any other form of life yeah if you keep getting somewhat wrong and it's harmful to you don't keep doing it think you know it's what we do yeah every time I jump out of a window I pray is the right thing to do what you actually proven to be yeah no it's fine it's a good yeah but that's by the way I think the only way that you that you you learn to is by

alternate ly Proving yourself wrong of course and and so that's what progress is yeah yeah and so it's so one of the things you you know that wonder of discovery it occurred to me one day actually I was at a QA after I a movie which a great film a documentary made by an Irish woman called the farthest about the Voyager and and I was talking about teaching occurred to me and it may be it may be not profound but it for me it was a revelation when I Realized that the first whenever a child

learned something new for them it's the first time in the history of the world that that's been understood and so what we should teach kids by discovery thing we should be questioning instead of wrote this is what we know it's a voyage of discovery together hey I don't understand this parent should say to understand this more anyway let's figure it out it's incredible and even if I if even if I Discover something that I think's new and says no no someone did that hugger I still feel as proud oh yeah okay well I didn't know

that yeah so I'm as good as him yeah but I could have been yeah speaking of fun and and and and I mentioned music and comedy you said you started music where I mean you wanted to join the band you're yeah you got signed yeah music and comedy how do you compare the two um music is the greatest art form in the world is it's like it's like Herring an emotion it's incredible there's nothing like it it is and you know but for me it's so frustrating yeah but it's the only thing I've ever tried

to do and I've you know that I that I don't do I've I've learned I know how to play a whole bunch of instruments badly every time I took lessons I got to a point where the guy said you know I think you got as far as oh yeah and it really frustrates me you talk about turning playing chess it's it's it's Really because it's so wonderful when I was written to me that like but it's it's nothing like anything else no we're excited about it's not it's not about maths yeah it's just how how

do you feel yeah it's incredible you know and more and more I I get into instrumental music because again it's it's pure you know do you still play do you play music regularly my own yeah oh god no no no I last outing was was luckily I was I was Hiding behind irony with David Brent yeah okay yes yes right fine but not the real nono not performing I just met at home dude yeah but you know just a twiddle that's yeah that's uh that's good that keeps the brain working yeah and you can think

about other things as well that that's great um it's very good for you to play they didn't experiment again they yeah they those no no no apparently with things that gave people different talents and playing an Instrument lit up most of the brain and mostly brain so I must so I must have seen missing their big girl yeah yeah I haven't got a chest brain do you do but you well actually don't do you when you're performing do you feel like you're I mean like you're playing music I mean I thought your whole plane lit

up in the same way I guess so but then I think this is very in and it's just my theory is probably not true again that there's a difference between when I'm When I'm making a like after life yeah well I'm trying to create a world and there's there's words and pictures and a story to get people in and I think that's the most fundamental thing we have a storytelling sure you can have all the avatars and CGI's in the world yet come down to one person telling another person story what happened to them and

that that's that's the most human it gets okay that's never a fire that's why yeah where empathy starts We're caring starts we're in Trina that is it right yeah so I do that and I make it I put music on it or and you know you manipulate emotions you take my legit ha and you're surprised with all that right and then you do your best guess and it's what you want it I get fine led it and if it works out like I wanted it I I can't fail yeah and I put it out there

and there's nothing I can do about it yeah they tell me if they liked it or they didn't know yeah yeah stand-ups Different stand-up is slightly more like a science because either works or it doesn't so I've got other every night yeah and you and I hear the laugh you keep that bit I don't hear the laugh lose that bit or change it so eventually I've created this perfect Beast its natural selection it is yeah the audience of cheddar audience is the world yeah and they've chosen the bits that work there then your audience is

The same everywhere interesting really yeah yeah the biggest whether it's a Friday or Monday whether it's a hall or a theater makes more difference to where that thousand 10,000 people are yes when you get that many people that's a sample yeah yeah so if they can understand what you're saying yeah right yeah they're the same I could I could do I could place Chicago one night and and livable the next and I could do a readout of the laughs and the Gasps same exactly the same that's fascinating yeah that is interesting yeah and I've yeah

well you know I when I lecture I mean humors an essential part of for me it keeps me going so when I'm lecturing or writing humors a big part and what I was gonna say is I notice what I don't know if people are understanding me when I'm in Russia say giving a lecture but the way I figure it find out is by making a joke yeah and then and then you know because it one Person is like through a three-second delay as iodine to laugh at the same time yeah yeah yeah may I be

nodding and pretending to you you I agree it's like it's the that's when you know it's like if you're not listening to a teacher yeah and they say so what do you think you have to go yeah yeah yeah I know that's what my caliber I don't I don't do it with them translations or I play places where they speak English okay better than me which is it's a it's a Very widely spoken language yeah yeah no it's amazing and it is and also they know it's gonna be even so they don't come along unless

they get it all in there and and yeah the world's smaller now it's amazing and we're fortunate in a way speaking of cuz yeah when I go around and I'm amazed because when I when I do these events how many people aren't wearing their translators because they'd rather be English then here the translator yeah because you've got You've got to talk about universal subject yeah I can't rule out that you know what was on telly last night in your country that they won't get so it's you know but you ways that said though humor is

universal as long coach will weapon and I make sure that it's you know if you understand the language you will get the the joke everyone everyone laughs and film and falls down no matter where exactly yeah It's like victim times an iron you know we're pretty much the same yes AI new philosophies I'm in here yeah I can't help but think I mean you know that that there you're doing philosophy that had a huge impact and ultimately on what you're doing common maybe or maybe as I mean not doing philosophy but your natural inclination to

ask critically to think about that's issues that that's why I wanted to flip this okay okay good I don't like Being I don't like be in the one but you're so wise and I just a student knowing so I'm gonna ask you questions I'm a much better pupil because I'm still I'm still wide-eyed about the world what I never lost it that want to talk to you I want I want to make people don't be laugh I want to tell me one thing that I we are Co same okay right good okay as I mean

that's it for me to where were we you know okay so yeah um that thing about The yet so how far how far back close to the to the beginning are we now with what we know what happened what we know what happened I take know to be that there's some experimental there for me it's if there's no experiment yeah yeah yeah and and so um back we know we definitely know what happened back to about a millionth of a millionth of a second after the Big Bang a million three million okay so no no

okay so all that's here and all that's Everything all doesn't matter right okay I know that's a dodgy one no no no no I'm was crammed into a region the size you know I actually smaller than a you plugged humanity I mean I'm gonna sent can I send you my book Adam because you're a book about the history of an atom from the beginning the universe to the end okay because I wanted to ask that question so when does it sort of all begin but it's amazing at that time we we when I first started

talking which Is a time when we the laws of physics we least understand can be extrapolated back to a time when the entire universe yeah all hundred billion galaxies each containing a hundred billion stars all that matter was crammed into a region the size of a single atom is that I mean so that's excess most most things are nothing aren't they so mom is mostly nothing you lie in the alcohol go around a tennis ball yeah yeah I mean madam Mostly it's ten thousand that the electron orbits the nucleus of a size about ten ten

to a hundred thousand times bigger than the atom well it's even smaller than that yeah so it doesn't work though just that if if that's a not just a metaphor this is what annoys me were sooner right I don't want the metaphor I want yeah but to start with a metaphor just does that does the science work if every atom was the Albert Hall with a with a golf ball And a fly go around could every could every golf ball and fly in the universe fit into one Albert Hall oh yes but the problem is

it stops being an atom because the atom is so that can you exquisite exists because they couldn't so if we get down to what matter is what is that is there it I just like feeling stupid I don't like it but asking questions is never okay so so so so is there anything that is pure is there something as pure matter that Can't be squished anymore that was what that we don't know we know that we know there are key oh yeah yeah no no but that's the right answer [Laughter] yes exactly what a fraud

yeah yeah exactly don't how can all say that exactly right okay so so it's okay knowing oh god right okay so right Odo's oh there's the other thing right okay okay so okay we've done that yeah so um there was no there was No time before time that's a present well we knows no that wasn't fair wait so it was a place no what am i this is what get this is what kiss is what kills me okay so let's get that right although everything that exists matter antimatter time nothingness all didn't it it didn't

have to exist that's the great thing it spontaneously popped into existence space time matter and you don't need any supernatural shenanigans that's why I wrote this book called the universe for Nothing it's amazing to me that science has come to point saying well we don't know but it's plausible that you can start with with no space no time right poop the philosophy can space of time so existent ok so if we take that let's get to what's physical what else ok everything that exists now was in the things science more than a lot more than

what exists but yeah ok what yeah yeah no it's really weird he's lost some bits yeah yeah oh we we lost a lot oh [ __ ] me Where's that it just disappeared yeah it's no varies exactly it's just dissipative yes right I mean this what annoys me about quantum physics yeah it overturns all the things I held sacred in science yeah exactly it's like wonderful that's what you don't want to go you should love it because nothing's sacred but I mean I mean from like Newton's laws to relativity which I had downwelling equate well

no but they're not wrong the great thing about no they Were there just a contingent as opposed to whatever but everything's contingent but they're just a mistress this ok right ok uncertainly principle ok ok [ __ ] me it's like where do I start I know so little that I don't know what question to ask that's so [ __ ] frustrating this is for me I haven't got the language to ask you the right questions so yeah so we can work together through the right page but the questions are the most important thing The only

important there is this metaphorical or literal ok when you fire two electrons oh yeah are they in two places at once if you don't measure them yes ok ok again it's weird if you observe it do it now now is that is that metaphor no no well it's what is a metaphor is you're thinking of an electron is a little billiard ball so the point is the problem is that it's not really a strategy and that's why you know there's This fact is this weird thing called quantum entanglement or where where if I if I

do something to this electron if I prepare a lot two electrons in a in an initial State a special state and I take one here and I move another one to Alpha Centauri then and I do something this one instantaneously not at the Spiegel I've been instantaneously I change the properties the properties of that one or at least I change what what someone Would measure of the properties of that one and he said hold on that violates everything I know of but the problem is the mistake is that you think of it as two separate

objects in the quantum world they were never separate once they were entangled they're all there they're like you know it's like on the side of the face and problem hurts over here yeah so it's going out one door that's coming in the other one of a that's one way of think about it's always a Metaphor because there's no way there's no sensible way to picture because where we grow up with these classical pictures so there's no and that's I was just saying it's like we're having this I was having this discussion with a scientist I

think maybe even on the podcast but that the problem is that people talk about the interpretation of quantum mechanics that's entirely the wrong thing because the world is quantum mechanical yeah we live with this Approximation yeah yeah it's not it's like determinism yeah you can have it it doesn't change anything because we have the illusion of free will and we got worried about murderers and living and dying yeah I guess we have this illusion so why do we try to explain the real world high in terms of solution we should try and explain the illusion

in terms of the real world right okay that really helps oh that's amazing my work I reason to do that okay I can do that Uh-huh right yeah I just never think about it again okay lastly but not there what's great about this podcast is the people who tuned in for you yankin fast forward to this baby and people attuned to me can-can stop before so but you understand for me it's even better it's even better because they'll say why the [ __ ] is Ricky Gervais I know thinking this is interesting if he thinks

it's interesting maybe I should think it's saying I don't care about Lawrence Krauss but I like Ricky Gervais so maybe if he thinks it's interesting there's a reason to be interested in trust me it that's not what happened yeah II think he is making a fool of himself oh right no no okay by asking question okay that's the bravest thing anyone okay okay no no no it's great it's so and I will I will have this this is known for there was there was nothing literally nothing right what was it though there was no time

and there was No space and there was nothing where was it nowhere and where's that oh that's the point it's not other language so this is not good this is what blew my mind right about all that all the things that in the universe anymore that's a new one like me I've got about to worry about now yeah now there's many more universes yeah that's another River so it is that the nature of infinity or is that literal that it's probable it's probable that they're made that space It's quite likely that they're well it's quite

likely and that's all we can ever say it's quite likely or not likely baby no it is yeah that that there could be an infinite number of universes or our universe could survive an infinitely long time but why did you say and that's the case why did you say that this universe is 30 enough and years old is the second or third or the hundredth or the millionth well the well first of all we don't know and secondly if there's an Infinite number then how do you order them oh yeah cuz time yeah yeah but

but it but what's weird is around main structures together but what's yeah what bothers people and it bothers all the scientists it's okay our universe had a beginning we don't we do know that only this week only because we going back yeah yeah yeah but that's on our time frame that's an archons I know it's really weird but it but people don't like the fact that our universe Had a beginning but it may go on for an infinite long time and so why did it have the beginning when it had a beginning and the answer

is you know it just happen but there get laughs I'm well happy with that as well but actually it makes it easier for me it may not be true but how can there be another one well that's if the universe takes up all the space listen I know it's expanding into nothing no no it's not expanding into anything It's no if I blow up a balloon yeah and I put dots on it yeah and it sure it if I put in an extra dimension its its expanding into the room but if I just consider the

two-dimensional surface of the balloon it's just getting bigger it's not expanding into anything okay yeah and so if you imagine our universe is like the two-dimensional surface of Moon or just better still take a rubber bedsheet and make it in philly big you know you're in philly rich you have an Infinitely big bed and stretch it it's not actually a language there of course I am but that's the only thing I play with you because we don't know doing mathematics but this makes me think that the term infinite is meaningless now well no it's it

it it is very it is meaningless in a sense here he's gonna get frustrating for me no no I'm gonna say I'm gonna give you an example I never thought I do in this program but okay it this guy Hilbert it Was a very famous math mission he he invented this paradox showing that infinity is kind of meaningless when you think of the language it's he call it we call it Hilbert's hotel you're gonna have this is gonna blow your mind okay so you go let's say you're going in Las Vegas to an infant big

hotel okay and you go in and and you said like a room and they say well all the rooms are full and it goes okay you go I'll go somebody said no no no no no no this is an Inflamed big hotel we can fit you in how well take a person from remember number one put him in room number two person for remember to put him on remember three three even four and I do that and now room number one of these Tyco I'll do it at the same time but I don't but even

that's hard so okay so I'll just sleep in the lobby yeah yeah nobody hold on I'm gonna make it even worse right so you go in with a Catholic family an infinitely big family yeah and you say I've got a I've got a room for my in Philly big family and they go oh no no we can fit you know how I take person for him number one put him in room number two for remember to to room number for room number three to room number six remember four and eight now only the even numbers

are occupied and all the odd numbers are free so you can fit in your family unity has that that used to be my I didn't hear that but that used my favorite fact to blow if it Was mine so there was many even numbers as even odd numbers put together yeah exactly because infinity is a very yes subtle concept and mathematicians have a way of dealing with that but if you don't deal with it carefully you arrive in is a concept though it's it's infinity is only a concept well you brought you interesting interesting question

physicists don't like infinities well no there's nothing physical well but what if space is Infinitely big well what if what if I thought we're gonna solve it yeah we're gonna we're trying to but we have to admit that possibility has to be a concept well our things raised much more there's no more concept e concept than infinity well but well you know example of it cuz you have to because you can't you can't you can't tell me a number that's even getting close you know but I can tell but like you know I know in

concept well But I can't say that one no but but the number one is a concept but but use a concept you can say well I see one is yeah we could mathematicians - no but mathematicians have figured out ways to work with infinity as an as a number or different kinds of infinities in ways that gives sensible results so so as a numerical concept it says it says known it's some sense yes as well-defined as a million or a billion or a billion done it's just weirder a lot weirder so Basically you're laying out

the possibilities yeah to work backwards so you've got all the possibilities laid out yeah and by the one of them is true and well one of them is true for us yeah that's what I mean and this and physicists have been talking about this recently if there are an infinite number of universes which we think is quite likely yeah this blows my mind if not again no but then it's even worse okay or even if our universe persists for an Infinite long time but let's take an infinite universes there's a universe in which in which

we're having this conversation but you're telling me the physics at now I'm telling you the jaw and more on that but there's an infinite number of universes when this conversation is exactly the same except for one word yeah there's an image exactly same I'll get that weird yeah but it's only a concept just like what if it is true but what if it does mean It many because we'll never know about it because we live in one universe because when we know that the nature and the possibility of space and time and infinity those words

don't mean anything anymore in a normal sentence because wist because you're using them in the way that I know them and accept them in this world but they're not true anymore well that's you hit the McKee point and this why people get so upset when I wrote the universe from nothing Especially religious people because I point out that science has shown that not nothing isn't what people once thought it was it's the word it means something very different we changed the meaning of nothing just let me change the meaning of something and they say but

you're allowed to change the meaning just like we changed the nature of time when we found out that the speed of light was a constant and disk did some resonate they can say hold on You're not allowed to change what we mean by nothing and I say I call that learning okay it mean I don't cuz it's not help me but here the point is that there as I described in that book there are many different kinds of nothing there's a nothing of the Bible which is are in an infinite empty void their space there

but there's nothing in it but that's not nothing because where the space is there so what if you get rid of the space right I have to be very Careful and physics has shown that they say to pop in and out of existence like anything l this is what I can't get round cuz I can't get over I can't get over my definition of the concept that I can't imagine there being nothing around this atom to expand into well you do because I declare to anyone who's even less along the line than me and I'm

nowhere right no no you don't mean a vacuum no no I mean there isn't anything there's not a vacuum even don't know no Yeah well a vacuum for some people a vacuum is nothing but I would argue that's definitely not nothing cuz there's a lot of stuff that of course so you actually space than that even throw away there's a lot of stuff in the vacuum there's a lot of [ __ ] stuff in there and then working with [ __ ] loads of stuff here well right well let me give you the big point

I mean what we've learned that the universe the dominant stuff in the universe is nothing yeah Because I empty space you get take a piece of space get rid of everything in it yeah it still weighs something and we don't have the slightest understanding of why it still weighs something how do you Wyatt what gravity so that it's a probably it comes down to grammar it all comes down to ground what is gravity it's a force that is it is it is it lit I see again I thought it was apple fell on your head

yeah I know well I thought the gravity Was a force created by matter and that's what we used to think and that's what Newton would say and no is it well no it's never rubbish that's one of the big misunderstanding 2017 exactly but no but but I'm like unlike the whole yeah exactly well but but unlike the unlike culture science doesn't what does things don't become passé so that Newton is just as true now as it was then from if you want to hit a Baseball or launched a cannon bar take a rocket ship and

make go to go to the moon Newton works that's the point scientific revolutions don't do ways on the world and all the and all the yeah that's what we learn about the universe that the weirdest copes it's never gonna change thing I'm never gonna have a ball whatever I learned about quantum physics I'm never gonna have a ball here and say I let it go it's gonna fall off it's Always gonna [ __ ] no matter what we learn other the law that says it's gonna fall down it's always gonna be true so so why

don't I just a 1i just call these concepts and these possibilities right the don't interfere with our contingent laws and get some space and go why don't just call him God you can but it's a but you you know the reason you're doing it that's because you don't want to think well yeah I'm using God exactly God is just for many people they did Their terrifying with concepts but why can't what why can't I just say God because because and I just mean all the things you said yeah you can say that but then you

can submit that basically says well then I give up trying to ever explain or understand because there's lots of things that are going to my head hurts okay and I never thought of you as a religious way you know you made me believing like my life is complete yeah Thank you this program you weren't religious and now you are I think that's a good way to end it is yeah I've converted you that was great the origins podcast is produced by Lawrence Krauss Nancy doll Amelia Huggins John and Don Edwards and Rob's EPS directed and

edited by Gus and Lou coordi audio by Thomas a misen web design by Redman Media Lab comm animation by tomahawk visual effects and music by Rick Alice to see the full Video of this podcast as well as other bonus content visit us at patreon.com slash origins podcast