The Kenneth Copeland Interview (EP 186)

It's hard for me to wrap my mind around this idea that God wants everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy, and things like that. When we It doesn't say that. Say it wants everybody to be to prosper. Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves. The thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health, and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus. Where do you find, hey, this is something I enjoy versus this is something that may

be sitting on the throne of my heart? Before we get into this interview, there's a couple things that I want to tell you guys about. Kenneth Copelan is a prosperity gospel preacher who teaches another gospel that says God wants every Christian to be healthy, wealthy, and prosper. And if you aren't doing those things as a Christian, then it is your fault. I want to clarify, I do not agree with the prosperity gospel. That's the whole reason why we sat down when we got the opportunity to do the first sitdown interview with Kenneth Copeland in over

15 years. I made it very clear to them. I was like, "Hey guys, I disagree. I'm going to be very respectful in the conversation, but I do not agree with the prosperity gospel." And so, this interview is a little bit different where I sat back and asked a lot more questions from a journalistic perspective, whereas I wanted to understand where he gets this doctrine from. I I really don't understand. I Want to know how he finds it in scripture, what that looks like to the person, and ask a lot of questions and do more digging

to let the idea speak for itself so that we can understand why the true gospel is important. You know, I believe Paul makes a good case in 2 Corinthians that sometimes God allows a thorn in our side to keep us humble and reliant on him. And so, it was fun to hear hear his uh perspective and challenge him even though I disagree. Um, and I want to be very cautious by going into this, but also my heart uh was 1 Timothy 5. Kenneth Copelan is in the latter parts of his age. He's a little bit

older. And I tried to do my best to best to hold to 1 Timothy 5 uh which says, "Do not rebuke an old man, but appeal to him as a father." And so I tried to come at him with challenges as if I was challenging my father and not a harsh rebuke quote unquote. So I pray that as you watch this interview, you listen to it. He's going to tell a lot of his stories and then when we get into the prosperity part that the questions that I ask, I pray that they compel you in

such a way to thank God for the true gospel and not that God just wants material things for our life, but that God wants us and that he is the prize even if we lose everything because that is the goal. I love you guys. Thank you again to the Copeland Network. You guys were extremely hospitable to us and welcoming us to have this sit down interview and enjoy this episode. If you're a Christian and you say that you believe in truth, we need to live truth out. Whether it's in word, indeed, or businesses that you

support. It is essential to the Christian walk that in everything that we do, we do it for the glory of God. That's why I want to tell you guys about my friends at Patriot Mobile. Patriot Mobile isn't just some wireless company. It's America's only Christian conservative wireless provider. And they've been fighting for faith, family, and freedom from the get-go in the start of their company. They are activists for Christ and they walk out their activism by providing the most reliable wireless service nationwide. The best thing about Patriot Mobile is that they offer service on the

top three major networks and you get the same coverage or even better if you switch or start the day. And most importantly, their customer service is 100% US-based. If you're going to pay for phone service anyways, why wouldn't you support a company that actually has Christian values and morals? And the heart behind the company is to see the gospel go forth. Switching is way easier than you think. Plus, they'll give you 15% off for life and give you the first month for free if you just use my promo code, Bryce. Let's live out what we

believe. So, go to patriotmobile.com/bry or call 972-patriot today. What's going on, guys? Welcome back to another Bryce Crawford podcast. I'm Bryce and today we have an incredible guest sitting down with us. I mean, from my knowledge, this man hasn't done a sitdown interview in over a decade. And so, we're excited to welcome Kenneth Copeland with us this morning. How are you? I'm doing good. Good. Well, thank you for being with us. All well in the household of faith. So, if you just stay with it, everything will work. Amen. Well, thank you for being with us.

I'm grateful that you're here and letting us come and and vi and visit you and and be with you. Um, but you know, For anyone that doesn't know anyone anything about you, you know, next generation, you know, who are you? Where are you from? What was that like? I was born in Lok, Texas, December 6th, 1936. Of course, that was right at the tail end of the Great Depression. And uh then my dad moved us to Abalene, Texas. And we lived on 733 Sunset Drive. And my dad brought a brand new nice house for $1,750.

And uh he worked for Drawn's Business College. So since he was in education then during World War II his fuel wasn't rationed and so he he traveled a lot and um then there in in Abalene I grew up there and then uh 1952 we moved to Fort Worth. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be an Abalene Eagle. Well, let me fast forward about this far. When I was in high school, Holly High School had never in baseball, track, everything else, but not in football. And so my class and my quarterback was Hunter

Inis, and he and I are still really close friends today. And uh so we did it. We went all the way up. Guess who we played in the final? The Abene Eagles. and they beat us 46 to nothing. But so far, I go Poly, they're They're going to get there one of these days. Well, and while I was in high school, they did a a teen times foremost dairy uh company was did a teen time talent scale and uh I was I was 18 and of course to sing I I tried out for it and

they there was a girl in high school her name was Jimmy Fay Pal and Jimmy Fay had just played and so we went to the WBA VAP Fort Worth Studios here and found out what all to do and the set was set up like, you know, like a drugstore and Pat Boon was the was the head of it. So I sang several things to audition and of course my big song was Old Man River. They said that's probably not going to go on what we want to do. How about she wore blue velvet? Well, that's

more like it. money, honey. Mhm. Over there, it's more like what we want. I like that. That sounded great. So, I won it three times and got a little radio and I won it three more times and we went to the studio and counted it down to 10 and turned on the switch and it was color. It was Friday evening beauty barn dance. I had on a white hat and sang Ghost Riders in the sky. Praise. And and and Pat and I and the family are still very very very close. Awesome. Anyway, in coming to

Fort Worth, there were things that took place here, you know, in my life. And uh uh I had a hit record back in 1957 called Pledge of Love. I'd been in the army and uh then uh Terry, my first daughter, was born while while I was in the service there. And uh of course, you know, she's just precious. And and of course, uh George Pearsons is my son-in-law and he pastors EMIC church. Anyway, I went out there trying to get in that entertainment business and it didn't work. But out of that did come that recording

contract out of that deal. So it's a lot of a lot of pressure for sure and I gave up on it. I just I just quit. I went to my dad now. My dad said, "Kenneth, if I was to unzip your head, wouldn't anything but motorcycles and airplanes come out?" Well, right there at the end of World War II, they they saw that the war was practically over anyway. So, there was a man by the name of Wooten in Abalene and uh the uh Wooten Hotel and number of things there. And someone called my dad,

I never did know who it was, and said, "We're going to fly Mr. Wooden's airplane. Would you and your son like to come?" Well, now anyone that's familiar with Amelia Hehheart, it was that little Alkey Heat Electra that she flew, that's that's what it was. Oh, cool. I can see it in my mind right now. The guy got everything settled in the back seat. I was already in the front. He looked over there at me and he said, "Don't you touch anything." I sat there like this and I was off the ground. Well, now we

talk about now you have what you say, but I didn't know that then and I was walking away and and my dad had me by the hand. I was eight or nine years old. I said, "Daddy, I'm going to do that." He said, "What? I'm going to fly airplanes." He said, "Boy, you can do it." Well, then came to Fort Worth And I remember my dad saying uh to my mother awanetta Copelan and my grandfather was Chum Owens put up by his blood Cherokee. He went to sign in for the draft and they said, "No,

we can't use that. That's your nickname Chum. What's your name?" We what does that stand for? William Elmer. He named himself that day. A Cherokee vet. Anyway, and he's my grandfather. And just Oh, what a guy. Anyway, we uh did go out there on that old farm and spend a lot of time there. So, he went to work for National Line Insurance Company there in Little Rock. It now has merged with other people. There was a car lot in Fort Worth at 1010 Texas Street. I understand it isn't there anymore, but it was then. I

worked there for a man by the name of Bill Golitlightly and he also owned an aviation company. So I came home and told my dad, I said, "You said you see I got an education." And I said, "I want to learn how to fly." So he shook my hand. He said, "All right, I'll stay with you till you get your commercial on your own." So I soloed August the 24th at 4:00 in the afternoon at Meechum Field, 12 years before DFW. Love Field in Dallas. And most people won't understand this, but aviators will. The final

approach fix on an instrument landing system is called the outer marker. Well, Jim Couch uh had been a military instructor and I'd had a couple other instructors that weren't all that good. So, Bill brought him in and he said, "Uh, you want to learn how to fly or just waller around in the sky." I said, "I want to learn how. Can you take it?" I said, "I can if you can dish it out." But needless to say, he did teach me how to fly. I got fly. So I lined up out there in this little

Cessna 150. 5523 echo is ready for takeoff. Roger that 23 echo. Uh your number eight to follow a DC3 just outside the outer marker. Do they have something painted on a barn out here or something? What? I said sir, this is my first solo. All right. 23 echo. Can you hold your heading? Yes, sir. Can you hold your altitude? Yes, sir. Um you now turn base mean I'm leaving down turn base and then final. Soon as you see that DC3 uh go under your wing, you can turn base. So I did it. I did three

touch and goes by Myself. I am a pilot. I don't know anything but I'm a pilot and um went on to that and got my private license. I'm working on them. And then I kept working at that and now I need a multi-engine rating and uh I'm just going up the ladder in the aviation world. And uh TCU was playing Arkansas in 1961 for the Southwest Conference Championship. And uh so I asked I told Bill, "What about my dad bought cars from him?" "How about my dad going?" He said, "There's no place to stay." I

said, "Well, yeah, maybe." I said, "Dad, call up there and see if you can get the penthouse." So we did. Well, I went to an afterame party. Of course, my dad didn't care anything about about going to that. and uh that uh penthouse. Anyway, a man came up to me and said, "My daughter's the best looking girl in the state of Arkansas." And I was doing this a comedian back there in those days called Brother Dave Dave Gardner. Just funny. Never offcolored at all. And uh One of my favorite was, "Hey James Lewis, put down

that wheelbarrow. You know you don't know nothing about machinery and the giant." He's a Philadelphiaian. Anyway, that's acting a fool at that party. And this man, he kept telling me that. He said, "I'm going to prove it to you." So I told him, you know, how to get there around the park. I know where all that is. So I'm standing there Sunday, August the 8th, 1961, October. Beautiful blue cobalt sky looking at that elevator. Best looking girl in the state of Arkansas is going to get off this elevator. That elevator opened up said, "Oh man,

he wasn't kidding." I said, "Gloria, um, I'm thinking about it. It still brings tears to my eyes, I think." But we walked out there and, uh, we walked out there and for some reason, she just reached over and patted me on the back and I fell in love with her. I never heard of the root of bitterness, but it it just left me and I I was Oh, let me let me tell you something. So I said, "Have you ever been in an airplane ride?" "No." "Would you like to go? If my mother can go."

So we went down and and I told Bill about it. He said, "Sure, just put them in the back seat." And I had to show both of them how to fashion the seat belt. And uh we flew around. Her dad was there and they got back in the car. Bill said, "Kenneth, you take the mother. I'll take the daughter. That's the best looking pair of two women I ever saw in my life. And he wasn't kidding. M. They're just beautiful. Anyway, my father-in-law was is a war hero. And for those that know, of course, I

was in the United States Army in 1957. But I have a picture of him on the back. D-Day, 4th of June. Uh, no. D-Day 4 June 44. first in big red one over here where he was sitting two hash marks four years of combat the blue infantry braid which meant he's in the infantry and three rockers up and three rockers down with a diamond in the middle or he's top soldier say sergeant major and uh his next rank would have been second lieutenant all of that in combat the North African campaign. First Infantry Division was

under uh Patton. The North African campaign, Battle of the Arden. That was the Battle of the Bulls. Here's just Sunday school teacher from Arkansas. Came back home, PTSD, began to drink. And uh anyway, I said, "Gloria, I need to ask your dad's hand in marriage." And he said, "Well, yeah, I introduced you to her and this little girl's head bouncing back and forth." And it was Jan and she's been in the ministry now over 50 years. So, that's a little bit of background behind him. He had a massive heart attack. Now, he remarried. Monair never

did. But his wife was a member of the First Baptist Church in Nashville, Arkansas. They rushed him to the hospital and of course Glory and I flew over there as soon as we could. Her pastor said, "Copelan, I waited until there was absolutely nothing, no no part of that operation left." And I took him down the Roman road. No more PTSD. He never took another drink. Glory to God forever more. He went home at 77 years old. Isn't that magnificent? Yeah. God doesn't fail and is a rich thing. Well, when you were growing up, when

when did when do you when did you claim to have start following Jesus? Like how how old were you? I was raised right all my life. Your parents were believers. Are you kidding? My mother was a switcher. She'd get behind my little legs. And my daddy, he he was a disciplinarian. Oh, he's a he was a military man. No, he wasn't that. Huh. Who? He was he was in in between the wars. Okay. And her appendix ruptured on the basketball court. And back in the day, that was a death sentence. And so they told her

that she probably wouldn't live. Well, he just used cadaavver clamps because he got in there as ruptured. Yeah. My grandfather went in there and said, "She dies, you die." So, he he sewed her up, but didn't do a good job of it. And she suffered from that all her life. But you grew up in a Christian house. Oh, I did. And my dad, he's just my hero, man. That's awesome. And he he but he'd say to me, "Kenneth, you did it again, I'm going to whip you twice. I did it again." And he did it.

He said, "All right." And you know what I told you? It may be two or three days later. I realized later he wouldn't do it if he's hurt or mad, but he'd take his belt and he'd tan my rear end. And I think about him today, I'm I'm so glad that he did because I grew up with great respect for him. I mean, when he walked in the room as a grown man, I stood up and uh we went camping together one time and on a ranch out that he had a a friend out there

that had some land in the soil bank. And so we went out there to go camping and talk about some things about ministry and so forth. And so I said, "Uh, you want a cup of coffee before we before we get in the tent?" Well, then their soil conservation, they had water that was coming down. So, I went down to this little stream stream and uh and I had just no metal coffee pot and I had I'd already washed it out and everything is clean and I just scooped up some water there and boiled it

and made coffee and uh so the next morning we got up and I said, "Dad, um that coffee is good last night." Well, yeah, Kenny is good. I said, "Well, this morning I'm not going to get another frog like I did in this one." I scooped up a little frog. There's a frog in his in that thing and it just cooked him. We both just lost it. He said, "Okay, no frogs." But that was my dad and I we would if I got to travel with him in his traveling, it was just just absolutely wonderful.

Oh, I I think that's amazing. I think, you know, Malachi 4:6 talks about the hearts of fathers turning their sons and their sons turn to fathers. And I think more now than ever, especially my generation, I think it's so important for fathers and mothers to believe in my generation. And that really encourages them to and it uh we would we would talk together, visit about things together. And uh I remember one time mother had all me she wanted. I mean all she wanted. She grabbed a belt and took out after me and I said, "Mama,

that's enough." And I jerked it away from her. Don't ever do that. Those little Cherokee eyes started doing this. She jumped on me. I said, "Mama, I'm sorry." Oh, no. Get off of me. She started laughing. I started laughing. Neither one of them do anything. But anyway, so you had met Gloria at after that that after that afterparty the Arkansas TCU game and you guys get get married. I Remember you saying Okay. We uh we went on to Arkansas and in Central Flying Service I got the multi-engine rating and uh all was really going good

and so uh in a Beachcraftraft Baron and then and uh so my boss was Claude Hbert and he was my best man and Joe Stewart who was CEO was a Southern Baptist preacher and we chose April the 13th. And so we got married in his living room. And you you had asked her to marry you on y'all's first date. Correct. Yes. We walked up on the port. Well, I did my thing. Now, Mac, I told him all about him. He said, "Now, you take her to to the rocket room down at the hotel there. They

have one time Jew box." So Johnny Matthysse came on singing Misty. So I sang Misty to her while we were dancing. She didn't act like it even happened. Wow. Walked up on the porch. I said, "Gloria, Will you marry me?" Okay. And went inside and said, "What have I done? I don't even know this guy." Oh, well, I get out of it later. That's 64 years later. Wow. But you sang to her while y'all danced. That's real RZ. Do you know what RZ is? Have you ever heard that? That's like a RZ is like um

you know like you got you've you swooned her. You know, you had game. I did everything I could think of. You It sounds like you had a real Riz. Look at me. And uh so I like that. Wait, do they look at Look at me. I'm as helpless as a kitten up a tree. Feel like I'm clinging to a cloud I can't understand. I get misty just holding your hand. Walk my way and a thousand violins begin to play. Is it the sound of your hello that music I hear? I get misty the moment you're

near. Does that take you back to that moment? Oh yeah. But the other one was a Ray Price tune. You're the best thing that ever happened to me. Oh wow. I've had my share of life's ups and downs. Life so good. The downs have been few. I know It's because he has blessed me. And I know it's because he gave me you. If anyone should ever write my life story, we just finished the edit on it about two days ago. That's so cool that you how you and Gloria met. We uh we've never had an

argument. Wow. It's been discussions and we've just sit and talk about it. I only raised my voice to her one time and I don't remember living in a little rent house. I don't I don't even I don't remember now what set it off. And and I I just stopped in the middle of it. I said, "Oh, oh, baby. You don't deserve this." And I just fell down over this this this couch and I said, "I got to preach." She said, "I know it." Let's go back to 1962. I flew a man from Little Rock to

Shreveport. He by the name of Weir. He was an executive with the Arkansas New Louisiana Natural Gas Company. I came back and uh you know got him off and and she I told her, you know, I'd be late and uh I got back in. She was at the stove. I can see it in in my mind right now. I went in and took my suit off and came back in there the the kitchen there, the little dinette there, and sat down. And I heard it in my spirit. Kenneth, you don't get right with me. You

headed to a Devil's hell. I said, I know it. What do I do now? I heard a woman by the name of Miss Tagert, Sunday school teacher in the University Baptist Church in Abalene, Texas. Boy, you have to ask Jesus to come into your heart. I thought that's old lady Tagard. That's what we call her. She called herself that she's a widow. I said, 'Well, here goes. Jesus. Now, I never heard of a new creature. Jesus, come into my heart. Profanity was gone from that day to this. And so, in 1962, you and then I

got to tell now I got to tell Gloria, she's raised in church Christ, not in Baptist church. I said, In fact, I was sitting like like this in that little chair. I said, "Gloria, uh, she came walked over there." I said, "Come here. What if I were to u Oh, what if I were to speak for God or give my testimony?" She said, "Hallelujah." I said, "How? What?" She said, "Well, the Bible your mother sent you that you never did read. Said, "Ken, Precious, seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will

be added to you." She said, "I just said, Lord, I need the things, so take my life and do something with it." We jumped up and hugged one another. January 1963, man by the name of William Standish Reed was having a a Christian medical foundation meeting. They said, you know, anybody wants to come up? I turned around my mother. I said, "That's something we ought to have." Yeah. I just grabbed Gloria and up. We went. Well, all the men were praying for me and all the women praying for her and you know, hang on, let

it go. I didn't know what they wanted me to do, but the wind men just gave up on me. So, Gloria was standing right there and they were still praying for her. So, he should have come over here. Lay hands on her. I said, "No, why lay hands on her?" I did. I'm telling you, I'm p the power of God like knocked me backwards and I stumbled back up on this little makeshift platform and and then I got old glow. I said, I got to I got to go back to work. So um Monday so

uh let me know what takes place. Well the next day she received first time in her life she'd heard the term born again and we met people that were lifelong friends that day which she came back to Little Rock with and they lived in Little Rock. But I knew so little about it. I'm flying this small airplane and I'm just sitting there thinking and talking to myself just about as loud as I'm talking now just the drone of the airplane and I said, "Lord, I don't know what all I know about this." I must have

heard the word anointing there cuz I never heard it in my life. I'm going to say some of those words again. And uh anything to this for me, I'm asking you to anoint them. Here it came again. Now I'm concerned. I got to talk to these people. Lord God, I'm going to have to I'm going to have to talk to ATC here again. Little rock approach. I thought, well, that worked. That's how little I knew. Landed. I'm telling you, I laid my hands on the airplane, the car, everything you could think of. And so that's

where it began. And how long have you been in ministry for and had KCM now? Yeah. Now to this day. Well, I I was in the ministry before we started KCM. Yeah. In 24th January 1964. Wow. I'd already been preaching to Full Gospel Venice men's fellowships and things like that up before that. Before that. And but that's when this ministry started. Wow. So this January is 59 years. Wow. And you know I've done a lot of traveling traveled been times that sitting in the makeup chair with Sherid like we did today. I'd sit there so

exhausted I didn't know I couldn't tell how I was going to do what I had to do and with stress. And I was preaching for Mike Barber in a tent meeting, prison tent meeting, and I got short of breath. And I had no idea why. Well, I went to the cardiologist and he checked me out. I had one blocked artery, but it had bypassed itself, but I had ahib because of all that stress. And so, they installed a pacemaker. And uh the FAA has dealt with pacemakers a long time. And there's what they call the

Bruce protocol. And I'll get to that in a moment. Well, the Apostle Paul said physical exercise is good. Prophetth little. It just mean it means it doesn't last long. You have to do it every day. But that doesn't mean don't do it. He didn't. He told him about it. He intended for him to do it. But spiritual exercise of course is greater than that. That's more prosperous is what he said. I had dealt with that already. and got a lot of weight off. But then this thing happened and I had the Lord say, "I created

you to rest 52 days a year. You don't rest 52 days in five years and you're exhausted." So he was speaking to you about the Sabbath and when was that? Oh, that back 2004. Wow. That was something that I had been getting convicted about recently was like you you know there's a purpose that that God designed the Sabbath and you can get a lot done in six days but you need to rest and resting. I have a really good treadmill and uh you can rest on that treadmill. Just go in there and take a nice

walk. I don't have to go outside to do it. It's right there in my home now. And uh I don't but the exercise part is to get it moving. Get the heart going. Get the heart going. Get it going. Work it. Work it. Work it. Work it. Work it. Gradually work right up to it. And so that's been a a pretty consistent rhythm in your life since 2004. Well, now 2004, the Lord directed me to do a live big band album with a group called Joshua Experience. Rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal with this big band. And

there was there were spots and places I I mean yeah I mean anybody can Google it and listen to it but and uh there were spots and places where you know it had to be correct. Normally I shower at night and if you walk into into my bathroom there, if I walk up to my shower stall, the shower state head is here and there is a bench across here this way. And there were some other things that that had happened right before that convention and I was just exhausted. So, I waited until Sunday morning to

take my shower and I just let that hot water go across me and I pitched the shower to the bench and it didn't make it. It went in the corner. I twisted to pick it up and I ruptured a disc in my back and I screamed. I crawled out of that shower. I couldn't walk. That's Those are the worst. I crawled out of there. And uh the young man and his wife, they were chiropractors at that time, David Lynn Weider, just screaming and screaming. I crawled out of there and Glory called them just immediately. But

then that was corrected with stem cells. I disobeyed God. I didn't do what he said. Start walking. Don't quit. I paid the price right there in that shower. I had a bowl cut when I was younger and I don't want you to have the same bowl I had. And so that's why I love these products from Based Body Works. Based Bodyworks texture powder and their sea salt spray bring actual hair structure, natural matte finishing, and no buildup in your hair. These products use silica and rice powder so that you don't have a bowl cut like

I sometimes do when I wake up in the morning so that you can be confident with your hair. With Base Body Works, confidence is the actual outcome. Not just knowing that you look good, but knowing that the products that you're using are actually good for you. If you've been using the same products forever without actually thinking twice about what's inside of them, it's worth it to take a look. Base Bodyworks is clean, plant-based men's grooming that actually works. Use code Bryce for 20% off at bassbodyworks.com and you'll get a free toiletry bag when you purchase

a set because confidence shouldn't come at the cost of your health. So go to bassbodyworks.com. Use code bryce for 20% off. Get that free toiletry bag. Get your set because confidence should not come at the cost of your health. All Right, guys. So, I'm back with brother Copelan here, and we're getting ready to dive into the scriptures. I, you know, I have a lot of questions about the prosperity, abundance, health, and wealth. You know, growing up, for me personally, if I'm being completely honest, it's really hard for me to wrap my mind around the prosperity

message and and things like that. And so, I just kind of wanted to have some dialogue here. Where where do you get this from in scripture? Where do you see this? Kind of share my thoughts. But before we kind of dive into the scripture and where you get your perspective, I mean can from your from your perspective according to to scripture, how do you define abundance and prosperity? Well, Jesus came and said uh the thief comes but for to steal, to kill and destroy. I've come that you might have life and have it more abundantly.

Prosperity. When one mentions prosperity, most people think about money. Now, money is not the root of all evil. The Bible said the love of it is. And there are people that commit that that don't have any money. That's right. True prosperity starts with John 3:16. Yeah. That's where it starts. Absolutely. And then you go from there. You go to the second chapter of the book of Acts because being able to pray in the spirit is the gateway to the supernatural. and you're just not ready to prosper all That big financially yet. But I would say

just from my experience over the last oh 57 58 years that the biggest part of Christians do not know that they've been redeemed from the curse of the law. What does that look like? Well, let's just take a look and see. Let's read. Let's read this. Deuteronomy 8:18. Thou shalt remember. Okay, we got to remember this. The Lord thy God, for it is he that gives you the power to get wealth that he may establish his covenant which he swore unto your fathers as it is this day. This is covenant business. And this book is

a book of blood covenants, the blood of animals, blood by circumcision, the the sinless blood of Jesus. Let's go over here to Galatian chapter 3. And then we'll go back and see what that curse looks like. 13th verse. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us. For it is written, now let me let me just stop right here, Brian. The integrity of this written word is absolutely essential. Rightly dividing it is Essential. Understands what it understanding what it means when one receives communion. When I finally realized that I'm

a blood brother with Jesus Christ, I'd rather die than to do anything to shame him. Ever. Ever. Ever. I I don't remember now why our airplane was in a shop or something. Anyway, I was reading EW Kenyan's book, The Blood Covenant, and this is back in the day when you could just take a shuttle. You know, this, listen to this, that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. I speak not after the manner of men, though it be but a

man's covenant. Yet if it be confirmed, no man disanols or adds thereto. Now verse 29. And if you be Christ, then are you Abraham's seed and hes according to the promise. Now we got to go back over here and see what that's all about. So we'll go back here to the book of Deuteronomy once again. They had just come out of Egypt. There's about two million of them. So if you can imagine two of them on Mount Ebal and Mount Gerazine. There's a million of them over here on one side. They're shouting across that the

valley of Sheckchum. They're shouting across there. and they have come and it comes back and said now this day. So chapter 27 Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people saying keep all the commandments which I command you this day and it shall be on the day when you pass over Jordan. Now here's where we're going. And when we get over Jordan, we're going to run into trouble. It shall be on this day when you pass over Jordan unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, that thou shalt set thee up great

stones, and plaster them with plaster, and shall write upon the words of the law. Now, let's stop right here. When Cain killed Abel, there was no law against it. So that began the law and the prophets. And once a prophet of God spoke something into this earth, there's no way the devil could get it out. He had it to deal with. And it started out, I'm going to paraphrase, there's coming one. He's coming. Well, he killed every prophet he could find, thinking, "Maybe this is the one." But there was a great announcement made one day

in the Jordan River. Now, John the Baptist said, "You know, I can't do this. I don't want to." Jesus said this, "You must do it that all these things be fulfilled." Now, when you go back to God in the beginning, the word is Elohim, the plural, let us make man in our image, right? So, now we're headed in that direction. And the word came, this is my beloved son. Hear ye him. And the devil says, I got him. So, he was on every prophet. He Was kill everybody he possibly could trying to get up to

that point. But this is so important to you, to me, and to all believers. Now the verse of 11, Moses charged the people the same day, saying, "These shall sign stand on Mount Garazim to bless the people when you come over Jordan. Simeon, Levi, Judah, okay, that's our side of the mountain. Ishachar, Joseph, and Benjamin, that's the Apostle Paul's side of the mountain. These shall stand on Mount Ebal." Uh, Ebonal was was alkaline and nothing but I mean couldn't anything grow on it when you really see a picture of it to curse Ruben, Gad, Asher,

Zebulon, Dan and Estali. And the Levites shall speak and say unto all the men, cursed be the man that makes a graven image, a molten image. Well, I have no other gods before me. I make no graven image. That's commandment number two. Mhm. And uh and all the people answer and say, "Cursed is he that setth light by the father of his mother." And all the people shall say, I mean, there's roar going back across there. You probably could have heard it for miles. Cursed is he that removes a neighbor's landmark. Now, come on over

here to the 18th verse, our 20th chapter. It shall come to pass, if you will hearken diligently To the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and do all of his commandments, which I command thee this day, after the Lord thy God will set thee high above all nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come on you and overtake you, if you'll hearken or listen unto the voice of Jehovah, your God. Blessed shall you be in the city. Blessed shall you be in the field. And I want to stop right here. It's

become the blessing of Abraham. But if you go to book one, he created everything and blessed it and saw that it was good. Yeah. And he created this whole garden and everything before he put the man in it. And if you take a good look at that, blessed is the first word the first man ever heard. So it was the blessing of Adam. But it came down to be the blessing of Abraham for this reason. Abraham, 17th chapter of Genesis. Well, let's go there. That's good. One of my Bible teachers growing up said, "Always be

a good, respectful skeptic." Like read the word. You notice, well, let me put it this way. You can't fight thoughts with thoughts. Jesus said, "Why take you thought saying?" You shall say unto this mountain, you can't thinking and get anything done about it. You can't fight thoughts with thought. You have to fight thoughts with words. And faithfilled words dominate the laws of sin and death. Now, Genesis 17, Abram, you need to go back and study Abram. This this some kind of guy now. I mean, all those kings came against him. And you know, old Chad

said, "You take I'll take the people. They take I'll take the money." Abram said, "Don't ever let it be said that any man made Abram rich." But almighty God, I don't want I don't I don't even want the strings out of your shoes. Well, he just armed his household. So, you know, there was a lot of supernatural stuff in that because they owned the night. Well, when I was in the US Army, we own we rule the night. I mean, that's, you know, but that's where it started. I am El Shai. El Shai is the

God who's more than enough. It really refers to a man a woman's breast that that when a woman has children like Gloria for instance. Yeah. Um she's everything. Yeah. She could understand that what they said and I didn't have a clue. Yeah. But she spent all day and all night with them. Mhm. Well, I am El Shadai. Walk before me and be perfect. Be blameless. I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell on his face. And you might think like this, uh, there's been a whole lot more

times than once. I fell on my face and God spoke with me. That was true when I went to World You because I I had 27 $24,000 left. I'd had an open vision. I knew I was supposed to be there. And uh I just fell on my face and on this little this little house that they had arranged for us. I just fell flat of my face, man. Just praying in the spirit just as fast as I could. And I stopped and thought, I wonder if he'd say anything if I Well, it's about time. I

couldn't get anything in Edge White. Get on your feet. Man, I hit a military brace. I was standing there shaking all night. Just shaking all over. He said, "I sent you here. I'll take care of you here. Your ministry doesn't start uh after you get out of school. It starts now. They can't make a minister out of you. I've already made a minister out of you. All they can do is train you." I went out and Gloria said, "What took what happened to all night long?" I said, "Well, there's my direction." So, I had already

been to orientation. Mrs. Campbell is printing the first quarter. I don't have any money. I said, "Miss Campbell, may I make a collect call?" "Yeah, dial 9." I'll call my dad. He said, "Where are you?" I said, "I'm a registar's office in Or Roberts University." Why? He said, "Eddie Matthews." Now, Eddie Matthews was in the construction business. He had no idea where I was. Eddie Matthews came by and and brought a check and said it was for your ministry. I said, "How much?" $375.15. Wow. And I had about the 15 later and I thought, "Well,

Glory and I'll get a candy bar and go broke." So now he said he'd take care of me. Paid that bill. And the Lord absolutely arrested me out there in front of the LRC. Go up to the sixth floor. And this just came out of my mouth. I said, "No, that's the Vatican. I'm not supposed to be up there. Right in here where any where any not out out here where any believer has it. They work for me. First thing I had to do is find the elevator. I couldn't do it. I pushed the fifth

floor just open. Well, it's the first year of Oru. I didn't know it. It was the library. It didn't have anything in it yet. He said floor six. Okay. Remember now I'll take care of you here. That elevator open. I walked up to this Woman. I said, "My name is Kenneth Copelan. I just registered for for school. I'm a commercially rated pilot and I need all the help I can get." She said, "Tell Dean Zanick." Sir, I am a I just registered today and uh I'm a commercially rated pilot. I understand this minister used aircraft.

I need all the help I can get. He went I turned around. My name's Oral Roberts. I actually stuttered. I listen to I got my first faith lesson. Two weeks ago, I started to hire a new co-pilot. The spirit of the Lord said, that's the same spirit that said, "I'll take care of you here." The spirit of the Lord said, "I have a student coming and you're my man." Tell Brother Louise we got our copilot. The spirit of God told him, "No, don't hire that guy. I have a student coming that's supposed to have the

job. He's not going to tell me that ahead of time. I'm going have to walk by faith," which I did. Well, He became my father in the spirit. That kind of trust I realized out there in front of that LRC, he arrested me. I actually had the where I just kind of stuck. I realized I could have turned walked off and said, "No, I don't I don't have any money. I'd have been a world of hurt because I didn't need any more money." Then later, this is what is so cool. A man by the name

of Colin Steel was head of everything on the road. I was in two of the last tent meetings at the end and um and and things he said, "I'll take care of you here." Things began to advance and brother Steele came to me and he said, "Kenneth, you're a grown man. I want you to drive the Rev's car." Well, all right. And uh Brother Louise said, "Now, now don't start a conversation with him. You let him go first." So, we were in Oklahoma City. He wouldn't let anything disturb his thinking because of the of because

of the gift he had in his right hand. And uh it was so powerful. He he just stopped. He had his B. He said, "Kenneth, I jumped." People will always tell you you can't do it. Find out the will of God. Now, that's when you search this book and that's when you pray and talk and think things about it. Confer no longer with flesh and blood. Get your job done at all cost. One, two, three. You know, I think you said something interesting earlier about about like abundance and prosper when we were when we were

introing into that subject. You know, you mentioned something. You said, You know, the love of money. There's people that don't have money that struggle with the love of money. I I grew up I worked on boats in Destin, Florida. And I had a co-worker double my age who had no money, atheist, wouldn't believe in Jesus. I would talk to him about him all the time. And I'm right there with you. I agree. I don't think there's a dollar amount on someone's bank account that makes it sinful because obviously my coworker at the time, he really

struggled with money. I think the hardest thing for me to wrap my mind around like the name it, claim it, the prosperity for me is when I when I look at in the second Corinthians passage of Paul, right? Paul Paul is writing about that thorn in his side and and you know there's theological debate on what that is but but you know he says I'm I'm grateful for this thorn because it keeps me humble and relying on God. Oh absolutely. And so it's hard for me to wrap my mind around this idea that God wants

everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy and things like that when we doesn't say that. It say wants everybody to be to prosper. John said it. I pray that you prosper and be in health as your soul prospers. Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves. So is it so is now let me let me back up. We glory and I started out with nothing and now we have offices and staff on five continents. We didn't try to do

that. We started out on the radio. I was I was in uh North Texas there in a little town called Herford, Texas. And I had my outlines laid out before the bed there. And the way I do my preaching outlines, the title is in blue and the scriptures in red. And I was praying about what I'm to do tonight. And the Lord said, "Is there victory in the new birth?" Absolutely. Is there victory in the filling and filling of the spirit? Certainly. Is there victory in the healed body? Yes. Now, that's part of your prosperity

is to live well and and not be sick. Divine health. That is really prosperous. I didn't know you could do that until I've lived it. And see, he said, "Every believer has a voice, and it is the voice of victory." Now, I was on the radio and I would start out that way and then I had a I had a little FM thing in in my own studio and I had a couple of records there and so and I did the theme song and I was going along I said you're not sick and you're not

going to die and I thought wow that is strong and uh then later on we got a written testimony This woman was in the hospital they had just co they had the doctors had just left her room and said, "There's nothing we can do. You are going to die." She said, "My arm just went over to the radio and turned it on. I heard you now. Someone else had it tuned into that obviously." And she said, "I said, I'm not." So, she sent down to the to the little deal downstairs and ordered a Bible up.

So, she looked up the scripture references and then she said, "I went home. I'm perfectly healed. We paid off my husband's truck and now the three of us have started a church. That's prosperity." So, let me ask you about that healing aspect, too, cuz I I believe in the supernatural. I believe God still heals today. I I do also believe that there are instances, though, where, you know, we we pray and ask God for healing. I'll give you a prime example. The whole reason I became a believer was because I was struggling with anxiety and

depression. And Jesus supernaturally encountered me when I was 17. And I prayed and said, "Jesus, if you're real, take away my anxiety and depression." He took it away. I haven't had it since that day. And I've prayed that same prayer for close family members, friends, loved ones who struggle with it just as bad, if not sometimes even worse. and God doesn't seem to take their anxiety into well he didn't he didn't say he would you were talking to him about you you're talking about family members now their will is involved now if you're going to

intercede for them that's a different Thing but in your intercession and supplication second chapter of the book of Timothy first of all prayers of intercession so forth which which is good in the sight of God our savior he gave himself as a ransom for all just praying for him ain't going to do it now in some cases it tonight if you just intercede long enough. The witness is stronger than the intercession because they know your testimony. But they're going to have to receive it on their own. And you do it with the book. So what

would you say then? Like for example, going back to that example of Paul, right? You know, he has that thorn in his side that's dealing with him, you know, persistently. It seems like Did you check and see what that was? What the thorn exactly was? No. What what if you go it was the care and worry about all the churches. That was the thorn in his side. Now, there are those that said he had sick eyes and all that, but he said, "I've been delivered from all of that." Where did he where does he say

that part? I'm just curious. I'd have to look it up. You just have to go and look it up in your concordance. But he said, "I have been delivered of all of these things." Now, here's what you have to understand about him. Like In the book of Philippians, he used the word joy in one form of another 18 times while he was in the worst prison you could possibly imagine. This man is a hero of heroes, brother. He is the hero. But he said, he didn't say, "I am." He said, "I know how to be

abased. I know how to be hungry. I know how to have plenty. I know how. Didn't say I am. He said, I know how. So, you study his life and and read everything. He's the same one when he wrote to the church in Rome about Abraham. He's the same one. Well, let's turn over there. Romans 4. What shall we say then, Abram? Abraham our father as pertaining to the flesh hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory, but not before God. What says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it

was counted to him for righteousness, or just right standing with God. Now to him that works in the reward, not reckoned of the grace, but of debt. But to him that works not, but believes on him justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also described the blessedness of the man who whom God imputth righteousness without works, saying, "Blessed are they that inquires are forgi his iniquities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." Now, let's come over here to the u

well the 13th verse. For the promise, now remember, every time you see the word promise, there's blood involved some way or another. For the promise that he should be heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they that are of the law are errors, faith is made void, the promise made of none effect, because the law works whereath. For there is, now look at this. Therefore, it is of faith that it might be by grace to the end that the promise

might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all. As it is written, I have made you a father of many nations before him are like him, whom believe God, who quickenth the dead, and calleth those things that be not as though they were. I call my body. Well, I don't watch television at night. I still listen to brother Hagen even though he's in heaven. I have a cell phone with no with with

no SIM card in. And I just I so I have him right there. That's the way Gloria and I got it. Was listening to it on tape. So I have it now. First words and last words. What I just used today For instance with Gloria. Good night my love. I love the Lord my God with all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind, and all of my strength. I love my neighbor as myself, fulfilling all the law and the prophets. And John 13:34-35, the master said, I give you a new commandment

that you love one another as I have loved you. And tonight, Father, my neighbor, and I'll tell you who my neighbor is right now, Joe Biden. They announced that he has prostate cancer. This is not politics. This is life, brother. And if they held that back and he dies of prostate cancer, somebody is really guilty. Well, I'm not the judge. The book is. So, I pray in the spirit for his whole family to be delivered. Jesus said, "Send laborers across their paths." with the message and I pray that as it is written as it is

written tithing is absolutely essential for the prosperous life. Let's go back over there to the blessing of Abraham in the 28th chapter of Deuteronomy. Just so you know the way I do my Bible and that one that I just took back, David Barton was doing television with me one day. He said, "Where do you get a white highlighter?" We were on the book of Hebrews and at one time or another I had just highlighted everything in there. So that's my favorite book of the whole life. I have a Hebrews is great. Oh yeah, it's great.

I'm telling you. Do you think Paul wrote it? Absolutely. Yeah. He mentions Timothy in it. I mean, come on. Let me paraphrase this in the book of Galatians. Let's go over there. We got to go over there. I mean, we're here. We got to go over there. You however have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Econium, and at Lististra, which persecutions I endured. Yet from them all the Lord rescued me. I pray over my

food every day according to the letter that the Apostle Paul wrote to his son Timothy. I receive my food blessed and sanctified according to the word of God in prayer. And I I pray for my partners every meal. I pray for the midterms every meal. I pray for the protection. Now, I want you to notice this in uh chapter 1 of verse 14. Propheted in the Jews religion above many my equals in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous. So, he was a zealot of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who

separated me from my mother's womb, and called me who has grace to reveal, now get it? To reveal his son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen. Immediately I conferred no not with flesh and blood, neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which are apostles before me. But I went into Arabia, and returned again. Then 3 years Mary at the tomb thought it was the gardener and he said don't touch me. Well what happened then don't touch me and uh this happened. He's the only one that said 500. No one else

said that. When this happened another scripture in the body out of the body I cannot tell. God knows. So in Arabia he went where Moses went and he sat there. He didn't need a veil. He's a bornag again, Holy Ghostbaptized, tongue-talking Christian. And when Jesus appeared to him, he said, "I've already shown him what he must suffer for my name's sake." Why? To prove that this new covenant works. To prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. He's the only man qualified. None of the apostles were qualified because this man sat at the feet of

Galia. Gale's word is accepted. Rabbi of rabbis. This man was a rabbi of rabbis, but they hated him because of what he wrote. They did. They tried to stone him. They tried to Yeah. chased him out. And then he got up and stoning him wouldn't stop him. Shortest salvation prayer in history. Who are you, Lord? I'm Jesus that you persecute. What you want me to do? And in that, he was like Abraham. Whatever he told him, he did It. Now, when it comes to my understanding of of this idea of prospering, right? This, you know,

I would let's let's go back over the book of Deuteronomy now where back to Deuteronomy 28. Yes. We we need to go back over there because we need to find out where the financial part of it comes. In Deuteronomy 26 from 12-15 are all of the all of the tithes. I have listened to the voice of the Lord my God and have done go uh according to all you have commanded me. Look down from your holy habitation from heaven and bless your people Israel and the land which you've given us that you have sworn unto

our fathers a land that flows with milk and honey. In the book of Exodus, he said, "I I I'll have no poor in in the in the Jubilee, the 50 years. In case you have poor, you you send back everything they have. I won't have any poor people in my nation." Chapter 28. It will come to pass. But you're going to have to believe it. It will come to pass if you will hearken diligently. Now, that that that's different from just reading once in a while. This is spending time searching the scriptures. This spend time.

Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. I was praying that. And the Lord said, and and I'd been I'd been praying for a a good while, studying, Listening. I just started praying. He said, "You look up. Give us this day our daily bread." He said, "What is your daily bread?" He said, "Your daily bread is going to be to the nations." Oh, really? I I didn't know we were going to come to

a place where we are now. Let me give you my own personal situation. We have a board of directors. They set my salary. I don't They do according to the IRS guidelines and they don't let me be in a room when they do. And since the the ministry has uh airplane, if for some reason or other that I use that airplane before God, but for vacation or something for my family, there is an internal revenue to a thing for that and I pay taxes on it. The reason this ministry uses an airplane as life was

singing is because we started out and I I was praying about this. We were just getting started and uh we were there in Tulsa and I came in from school. I said, "Gloria, I'm I have a disturbance in my in my spirit." Now, the man that owned that house we were renting, he was a lawyer. Well, I'm going to stay four more years and go to seminary. And I had him write the Kenneth Copeland Evangelistic Association. I' I'd already had him do the papers. So the Arkansas River just one house and I was in the

riverbed there. I went down in there and prayed in the spirit till it was just about dark and uh all I heard again was nations, nations, nations. So I started up out of there and then the Lord said, "Your wife is precious to me. I have given her to you. She is to you what temper is to steal. Well, I was in metal shop in high school and you had to temper. I was making tools and you had to temper it or you'd break it. And uh but this nations thing came up, but I pretty

well forgot about it. So, school's out. I'm ready to go. I'm What I'm going to do here in this summer? I don't know. I'm just And I sat down there. I had my suit on. I had my Bible and I had my my legal pad and I said, "Okay, Lord." And down in my spirit, he said, "Uh, I want you to go back to Fort Worth, Lord." Now, he said, "I'll take care of you. You know what happened to you in your hometown? I don't want to go back to Fort Worth. The greatest part of

your destiny is there." Phone rang. Gloria said, "Uh, Brother Nichols wants to talk to you." Well, he was pastor of Grace Temple Church. And so Gloria and I and John and Kelly were rebaptized in water there in that church. So he's my pastor. When can you come to me for a meeting? I said, 'Well, Brother Nichols, I'd like to say I need to check my schedule, but I won't have one. Now, we had had a devastating car wreck in the at Marshall, Texas in in Halloween night before. And the only car I had was an

old worn out Ozemobile that had about 90,000 miles on it when we got the only car I had. I'm nursing this thing down the highway. So, but of course when I got there I had another Car to drive. At least I for my folks. I stayed that folks. We walked in there and mother came in there and said, "Gloria, come out." I said, "Gloria," I said, "Mama, you got any tapes?" "Yeah, look in there." They had a thing there. The previous owner had a a home screen. They just set this thing out and set this

tape recorder on it. You know, things about that big. There's a white box. Huh. On the first side, you can write your own ticket with God. And the flip side, Paul's revelation, Kenneth E. Hagen. That's the first time I ever heard anything like that in my life. I said, "Gloria, we have to have everything as man has." And that started that and the teaching that came from both of these men. Now, I want you to notice this. This is very important. The way this is worded, it will, it said, and what verse is that that

you're in? Yeah. Chapter 28, verse one. It will come to pass if you shall listen diligently to the voice of the Lord your God to observe and do all his commandments which I command thee this day that the Lord God will set you high above all nations on the earth. In God's mind, that's everybody in the nation. You can't have a nation without people. All these blessings shall come on you and overtake you if you hearken under the voice. If you listen to listen to me, Blessed shall you be in the city. Blessed shall you

be in the field. Let's stop right there. Let's talk about Job. I He was a very wealthy God. Oh yeah. The only person that did what the the there wasn't there wasn't but one sin. He will curse you to your face. And God said, "But you can't touch his life." His wife did it. Not Job. And brought the devil down on the family. He didn't throughout this whole thing. There was a blessing wall around him. The hedge of protection. Yeah. It's the same blessing. He said, "You've blessed him. I I I can't get in there

to him." Blessing is more than just what you do when you sneeze. It is a power from God. Oh, you can't break it. You can't get through it. It's an invisible force. In many cases it's it it is translated very happy but it takes diligence. It takes a concerted diligent study of this book. Yeah. With the like Okay. So this message of prosperity and abundance and things like that. You know I know I know you go to a lot of prisons and do a lot of p prison ministry. I think that's another thing that's hard

for me to like wrap my mind around for guys like who are in prison. You know, I I've been to a state prison in Georgia where most of those men are in there with life without parole. You know, how how can Okay, let me ask you. What does he need to prosper? He just needs Jesus. There you are. That's his prosperity message. And to be strong enough to witness while he's in there. I've done a lot of prison ministry with Mark Barber. It started really before that. And uh I won't go into all the details,

but uh I was teaching in a prison and one of these men said, "Copelan, we like to play baseball in here." But yeah, I don't blame you. I like baseball myself. These little old short bats. Terrible. I said, "What do you have in mind?" He said, "A 36 in Joe Jackson." And he said, "It has to be a Louisville Slugger. I don't want anything else." And the other guy said, "Yeah, these crummy little bats we've been getting. There was a prison." I said, "You going to have to do it in faith." I said, ' Get

your Bibles. Let's go to the book of Matthew, see what the master said. And so we agreed. The prison truck came in there and had a big box. It wasn't on The wasn't on the list. He said, "I don't I don't I don't I supposed to bring this here, but there's nothing labeled on the box. I don't know what's in there." One of them was a Louisville slugger. 36 inch Joe Jackson. So to him that's prosperity because he prayed about this thing. He had learned how. Now one of them had 700 years in prison. Yeah.

Wow. He walked me to the gate. Now Lawrence Harvey was warden in in the Huntsville unit at that time. And uh and two, by the way, I baptized a serial killer named Steven Moran in the Bar County Jail in San Antonio. And he kidnapped a woman. He had killed 24 women. He kidnapped a woman, Margie Cole. She kept telling him she's the only one that loved him. And he told her, "If you don't shut up, I'm going to kill you." "No, you're not going to kill the only person ever love you." "Well, can I put

my tape in?" "Yeah." "Well, it was a tape of me preaching." and he slammed on the brakes and said, "Who said that?" and looked in the back seat. The voice said, "Stephen, this is your last chance, son." She led him to the Lord right there. Well, I was on there as his spiritual advisor or they only had to convict him of one. And they did. He said, "I I don't I don't want any reprieve." He said, "I only have one five-year-old boy, and I don't I don't want him to know I even existed in my

terrible, terrible life." He let me know that he wanted me to meet him in Golden, Colorado. I'm on his book there. He said, 'I never heard of any of this they're going on with, but he said, 'They're just clearing their books. I said, now Stephen, you have time to become an expert on prayer. Well, yeah. He said, I'll have time enough to do that. So, I said, I going to figured I said, now listen, you promise me you will pray about anything you do from now on. I give you my word. So he went upstairs.

He got up there and his sail door was a jar. And he told me, he said, I looked I could take my sheets and drop that out over there and I'm gone, but I promised brother Copelan I'd pray. And he said, I said, I got on my knees and I said, Father, in the name of Jesus, I fell asleep and I slept all night long. He said, I realized it was a trap. They were going to kill me on the other side of that wall because when they came in there and found me awake and

my cell door not shut. He said they looked kind of stupid. Now fast forward. We were we were caged like this. There was a thing right up here and I'm talking to him like this. And I asked him I said, "Everything all right?" Oh yeah. Yeah. He said, "Nah, everything's fine." He said, 'I'm picking to go home. He said, 'I can hardly wait.' I said, Stephven, I'm going to tell you. Do me a favor. The scripture says that that grace is enough. Yeah. I said, let me Know, will you? So, since I was his spiritual

adviser, I was as close as that wall right there, just a few feet away, a little railing here. I could see him. He look down there at me, and the lights were bright. And when that lethan injection start, it makes a bang. So, you know you're going to be gone here in a few seconds. And he looked down there at me and two thumbs up and he's gone. Grace was more than enough. Serial killer. But I had to go to the book when I baptized him in that in that. I mean, they had their pistols

like this, you know, they have a tub there as you know. Yeah. And I told him I said, "Gentlemen, everything will be all right." When he came up out of that water, I mean to tell you, if there was if any man's face I have ever seen was a glow, it was his. Something had to happen first. Number one, he gave me his word. I took it. Number two, he did what I asked him to do. He became an expert on prayer. And he's leading other people to the Lord and praying for their families and

for their lives and for their now they're prospering in the jail. So you can see where prosperity has a whole look at it like this. It's a pie and there's one slice in it here that's money and it's money enough to take care of everything you need. It's money enough to be out of debt. I taught that at the minister's conference one year and a pastor came back the next year and Told me what happened. He said, "I went home and he said, "We just my wife and I prayed and the congregation prayed and we're

going to we're going to build this new sanctuary debtfree." So he said, "I went to the bank. I went in and uh he said uh I asked him if I could see so and so and they said uh pastor he's working on your loan now." And he said I went in there and oh he grabbed me by the hand. He said, "Pastor, it's looking good." He said, "Well, I just want to tell you we decided to do it debtree." He said, "He changed and he looked at me and I will not repeat what he called

me. You know, you can't do this without us." He would have had that spirit in his life. It's cuz their money that he borrowed. There's uh I this word kind up here. K I N E. Do you see it in what verse? In the uh fourth verse. The increase of your kind. That is the increase. That's not kind. It's kind. Now they're farm people. All the oxen. Mhm. Everything you need. Cuz this is El Shadow. Everything you What do you need? Come to me. The increase of your kind. Our kind here was aircraft because the

ministry started with a little single engine Cessna. But even with that, some man asked me said, "Why do you want an airplane?" I said, "To go fast. Why not?" And besides, that is safer than driving down the highway. And I go to places for a meeting. Airlines don't even go there. And uh even this small fourplace airplane and I was flying it and and uh getting into places and getting into but I needed a twin engine airplane because this is not an all-weather airplane. You understand why? Anyway, I needed two engines but for safety and

and well and speed and everything else. So I just traded it in on a Cessna 310 was twin engine airplane. But that's my kind that's in the blessing. Now, so you're relating like the kind in Deuteronomy 28 to today. Your kind is an actual flock. This This room is my kind. I see what you're saying. I need this. These mics are our kind. This is our kind today. We need money enough to pay for this and money enough where you don't have a debt on any of it. You don't go down to Sears and Rob

and buy something like this on debt. This is an expensive piece of equipment, But your ministry doesn't need to be have to go borrow money at the bank to buy these things. That is to prosper in your ministry and to do it without debt. So, you just take it a day at a time, whatever is necessary, and put back. Absolutely. tithe. Gloria and I tithe personally, the church tithes, the ministry tithes we sew into other ministries. And then by doing so over the years, the money that this ministry has saved by not owing is over

$53 million. Anything the ministry purchase, that goes up. That's prosperous. Now, I want to I want there's something I want to get to here. He will establish you a holy people unto himself. That's verse N. All the people of the earth shall see that you're called by my name, sayith the Lord. That is huge. He said to Solomon, "Build a place." Bill told David, "Build a place for my name. You won't do it, but your son will." A place for his name. EMIC is a place for his name. There's no debt on it. It's just

the opposite of this really. The Lord shall open unto you his good treasure, the heaven, to give rain upon your land in his season, to bless the work of your hand, that you may lend to many nations and not borrow. Wow. You'll make you the head and not the tail. That's prosperity. I don't want to be the tail. I want to be the head. But it was the head a little bit at a time. Didn't happen overnight. Of course not. You shall not be beneath. If you hearken to listen to the commandments of now, now

just turn this page. Now, here we go. Deuteronomy 28:14. And thou shalt not go aside from the words which shall command thee this day to the right hand or to the left or other gods to serve them. But it shall come to pass, if you will not listen to the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and do all of his commandments and statutes which I command thee this day, now get this. All these curses will come on you and overtake you. Cursed shall you be in the city. Curse shall ye be in the

field. The Lord shall send. Well, no, he doesn't send it. They're here. It really should be. He'll have to allow cuz you're not hearkening. You're not listening. In other words, listen what he said. cursing, vexation, rebuke, in all you set your hand to do until you perish quickly because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou shalt forsake me, consumption, inflammation, extreme burning, no rain. Look at this one. 46. They shall be on you for a sign and a wonder, and upon your seed forever, because you serve me not the Lord thy God with joyfulness

and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of All things. Well, the 61st verse then just covers it. Also, every sickness and every plague which is not written in the book of this law will the Lord bring upon you till you be destroyed. But we've been redeemed from it. That doesn't belong to us. Spiritual death, sickness and disease, spiritual life, born again, filled with the Holy Spirit, living in divine health and prosperity. And the prosperous part as it grows is like this. Glory and I went before the Lord. We had been on 700 radio stations

which was somewhat of a record. But then the Lord called us on television. We'd gone to our prayer cabin in Arkansas and we stopped at Denny's for breakfast. And I looked at her and she kind of looked at me and I said, "Are you thinking what I'm thinking?" She said, "You first." I said, "Teelvision." and she said, 'Yeah, how we going to do it? I don't know. I don't have any idea, but it's going to take more money. So, we began to write out our agreement covenants with one another. We have never in a partner

letter ever put any kind of a price in there except one time when we went on that television. Our whole ministry budget the year before was a little over $375,000. And I put in there for the price of a pair of tennis shoes $12.95. Well, you can see inflation is taking care of that. We can do this together. That's One and only time. Our radio bill was 400,000 a month the next year. Well taken care of. All of this has the difference between the blessing and the cursing. Now, it does good to read all of

this and then read it in the amplified. And I mean the diseases themselves are actually listed there. So with the with this this prosper message that we're bouncing around through scripture and and reading about, you know, you mentioned that like, oh, for the man in Paris, prosperity looks different than maybe the man that grows up in Georgia than the man that's in Africa and the person in China. Now, like I I think you and I can agree like true prosperity is Jesus Christ. You gain that salvation. I mean that I love that you said that.

My mind has such the hardest time wrapping around, you know, what if what if God doesn't always give people what they want? What if God doesn't always do that? He Now, when did he say he wouldn't do that? Well, when I'm reading the scriptures, for example, like when I look at the gospels, right, when we look at Jesus sending out the the 72, for example, now he he's he's getting them to learn to trust him. He said, "Don't bring a knapsack. Don't bring a tunic. Don't bring an extra pair of shoes." Yeah. They're working for

him now. He's he wasn't a poor man or he wouldn't had a treasure. And he was stealing out of that bag and Jesus was the only one that know it. If Peter kned, I think he he's tried to kill it. He had a garment that had no seams in it. The mad man of Gera Clothed and in his right mind. Where'd they get the clothes? In the book of Mark went across there. This man was in the tombs night and day. He was a cutter, naked. But then he he wanted to go with him. He

was clothed and in his right mind. Where did he get those clothes? And it didn't He's going to call a man to preach. He don't want him looking like this. Are you talking about Are you talking about the man in Mark 5 with the Legion? Yeah. Yeah. He was naked, cutting himself. Yeah. Naked. But then we see he was clothed and in his right mind. Well, you don't you don't put a man in his right mind, turn him loose naked to go preach in the dopolis. He was clothed. Jesus clothed him. He prospered him. He's

a preacher. And he told him to tell them what great things and what compassion God had had upon him. So what' he preach? Same thing. So the basis then of prosperity, you go with the book of James. What good does it say? Be warmed without corresponding action to faith. Here it is. be blessed. Believe him naked. In there are cases like uh a medical doctor, Dr. Bill Reed. Powerful. He was operating on a baby and it died and he just held his hand over that little baby and said, and the little baby came to life.

It changed his life absolutely forever. So for the person that let's say someone hears this this prosperity message, right? They're listening. They're trying to apply. They're trying to read the scriptures. They're doing the things. Nothing's changing. Maybe they have a sickness. Sickness isn't going. You know, their finances aren't changing. Is that like a problem on the person or is that what what don't quit. Absolute necessity to tithe. Oh, that's old covenant. Oh, come on. Hebrews is in the new, right? Hebrews is in the new Hebrews chapter 7. There's an interesting scripture in 1 John. We

have known and believed the love that God has for us. You believe God loves you? Oh yes, brother Copelan. I don't know. What are we redeemed from? Sin, I guess. Stranger from the covenants of promise in the book of Ephesians. An alien from the commonwealth of Israel. Without hope and without God in the world. Are you going to get healed? Oh, brother Copelan, I sure hope so. The right kind of hope is necessary because faith is the substance of things hoped for. So, what's my hope, brother Copen? You going to he get healed? Absolutely. How

do you know? My hope is strong. Therefore, I have faith. I fully expect it. What if it doesn't happen? I missed it. Not God. I missed it here. Right here. Or there's some little something. I've got something against somebody that forgive those that have any ought against you. 11th chapter of book of Mark. Anyway, I want you to see this in the uh book of Hebrews in the seventh chapter. Without all contradiction, the less is blessed of the better. That'sid. When you see the word loving kindness, that's is the way you pronounce it. There was

a a British missionary and gave it to me like this. He said I was I was headed back to London and and he said uh that somebody wanted me to go see this this native guy. And so he said I went and I I I taught on Hessid. If you see the big elephant and the little elephant and the big elephant raises out of here, you get about to get a taste of hessid. But the little elephant gets exactly what his mama gets, equal. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus

who thought it not robbery to call equal with God where we're joined with Christ. And he said, "Come, come, come everybody. How the God wants us to touch fingers." That's the way they made covenant. They would slit their fingers like this and they became blood brothers. And you walk up to the bank and that's the way they I there's no way that there we're going to be anything wrong here because we're brothers. Here men that die receive tithes, but there he receives them of whom it is witness that he's alive. So we take our tithe.

Let's go to Mark chapter 10. This is where people get all out of shape. Verse 17. When he was gone forth in the way, there came one running and kneelled to him. So when I get this picture, well, this is the rich young ruler. Yeah. Oh, that I'm glad you turned to this. I was I was had the one in Luke bookmarked because I think this is this I mean this passage is is the one. It's so precious. And he asked him, "Good master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" Jesus said

unto him, "Why do you call me good? There's none good but one, and it's God. You know the commandments. Do not commit adultery. Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't bear false witness. Defraud not. Honor your father and mother. He left four of them Out. There's a reason why. He answered and said, "All of these I have observed from my youth." Jesus beholding him loved him and said unto him, "One thing you lack. Go and sell whatever you have. Give to the poor and you'll inherit heaven. take up the cross and come follow me. He offered him

apostilhip and he couldn't take it because he's going to take care of his needs from now on. I don't care how much money he has. And he was sad at the saying and went away grieved. We had great possessions. Now after he's gone, he answered the question. Looked around about his disciples and said, "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God?" Not that they have them. the the the riches have them. He turned away from him. He didn't have to leave. He could have just said, "Well, that makes me mad

enough to spit, but I ask you and I'm going to stay with you till I find out." He just left. Yeah. He loved his money more than he loved God. He really did. That's the danger. That is the danger. Anyway, listen to the rest of this. His disciples were astonished at his words. Well, they sure weren't they sure weren't poor or they I mean they'd have shouted at that how hard it is for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God. Easier for a camel to go through the eye of a

needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure saying among Themselves, who then can be saved? Jesus looking away. Now the word saved soo includes healing. It means soundness. It includes healing, prosperity, saved. Saved from what? Poverty. Saved from what? Saved. Jesus look upon them said, "With men is impossible, not with God. For God all things are possible." So my question is, who am I truly with? with all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind, all of my strength, all of

my wealth, everything I have, it's his. Look at this. There's no man that has left house, brethren, sisters, father, mother, wife, children, lands for my sake in the gospels, but shall receive a hundfold now in this time houses, brethren, sisters, mothers, children, lands with persecutions, and in the world to come, eternal life. Well, certainly it's going to be with persecutions. The one thing the devil fights is is his financial uh uh ability to do whatever God tells you to do. He fights it every he he writes dirty books about you which I have experienced. The

Lord said don't read about yourself in any publication anymore including social media. And there are some that, you know, they put in there all of this property, everything on it, you know, it worth anywhere close to what it says. But anything the devil can do to stop the money. I had brother Roberts tell me, he said, "If the money is choke, check your love." I think yeah I think you mentioned earlier um and then and then we'll take a break. You mentioned something earlier you were like that was the danger you know this man loved

his money more than he loved God you know that's why he walks away and I I I think um I think the someone said that it was actually Barnabas. I don't I don't really know where in history they said that. Anyway, go ahead with what you said. The you know you mentioned that the danger is that he loved his money more than he loved God. like and and I think that's one of the reasons why it's hard for me personally to wrap my mind around that prosperity message is because it has a lot to do

with the finances and you know we talked about it. It's not necessarily the dollar amount in someone's bank account that makes money sinful or not. It's the love of money. You know there are people that don't have money that love their money more than they love anything else. You know, But I think that's why it's hard for me personally to really wrap my mind around these these things that we're talking about. Um because I've I've personally seen and I bet you have too seen money destroy people. Oh. And it rocks their world. Um and so

like how how can how can we, you know, how can how can we as as believers show people who don't know Jesus at all that that he is the prize, you know, cuz that that can be attractive, you know, having the benefits of of blessing. I mean, the reality is blessing as a blanket statement. As believers, we get to be blessed in any form or fashion. That's a promise. Glory and I were at a Target store one day and this this card, this tires just squealled. Brother Copeland, Brother Copeland, Brother Copelan, the Lord told me

you'd be here. She had two small children in the back. I walked over there to the car. I said, "What is it?" She said, "I'm a school teacher. they my my home has become more valuable and the bank she said I'm only behind two payments and the bank won't won't renew my loan. What do I do? I said what's your name and phone number? So we checked out her story and paid off her house. That would have really hurt my heart if id have said I I wish I could help you but I owe so

much money I just can't do that. We have done that time and time and time and time and time again. And there's a particular restaurant that's it's a national chain. Well, it's Applebee's restaurant. And there's a particular one in this area and uh we haven't been there in some time, but we had an Applebee's ministry. An Applebee's ministry that you got that they got out, you know, that we would help people like that. And we did. And there were some cars involved in it that we that we help people. And this one man was a

former Marine. And Gloria wrote a book, God's Will for You. And in that book is God's will is prosperity. So he read it. I mean, he read it over and over and over again. And he came in there to me one day and he said, "Brother Copeland, would would you lay your hands on me?" He said, "I I really don't feel very good." Now, he had a little daughter that was very, very shy, and I would do this to her, and she'd come over there, and finally she got to where she'd come sit by me.

He said, uh, her school teacher called me in and said, "You're going to have to do some of this girl." Why? She says, "Kenneth Copelan is her personal friend." He said, "Well, he is. Now, what?" Oh, so he just bought a new truck. He died of cancer, broke. his wife, he had custody of the child. So, we put it together. We paid off the truck. We prayed for his homegoing service and started having his mother. Well, praise God. That's what it's all about. Today's sponsor for our episode is my company, Praise Energy, Energy with a

Higher Purpose. We've been developing this company for over a year so that People know that the energy drinks and the hydration that are being put out are coming from a gospel- centered faith-driven business where you know the heart behind the company, the people behind the company love Jesus and want to see everyone know him as well. There's so many brands out there online that push different agendas and doctrines. And why support those businesses when you can support people who actually want to see the gospel go forth? Our energy drink has 100 milligs of caffeine that

comes from green tea extract. And we use monk fruit, organic cane sugar, and stevia to sweeten the drink to offer the cleanest sweetener possible. Furthermore, every energy drink, electrolyte package, and all of our products are prayed over before it hits our website or even offered in stores. We even have a QR code feature where you can scan our drink and put in a prayer request and within 24 hours, a physical person from our team will have prayed for your prayer. If you want to know when we go live and offer our products for availability, go

to drinkpraase.com. Sign up today so you can be the first to know when we launch. Go to drinkpraise.com. Sign up today so you know when we launch Energy with a higher purpose. We talked a little bit earlier about about that Mark chapter 11 passage if if if you'd like that changed everything and I and I really appreciate you you know I you know fixating on this passage because I think when it comes to like because this was working all the time. I turned ex I turned exactly to that every time. Every time. So, I think

for me personally, one of the hardest things for me when it comes to this this prosperity message, when I look, I mentioned to you earlier about my coworker Mitch who who was had little to no money, but he was obsessed with Money. And I I I believe that he would always say, "Bryce, you know, I pray to God and I ask God for money and if God gives me money, I'll believe in him." And that obviously never happened. And so, he looks at me and he goes, "Well, well, God's not real." And I said, "Well,

you know, Mitch, maybe God can't trust you with money and that's why he's not giving you with money." And so that's why for me it's a little I come cautious to this prosperous message because I'm like, "Well, you know, when we're faithful with little, God can trust us in much with everything, right? And I and I don't want someone to to to perceive it as, oh, I believe in in this Jesus just to get the benefits of the kingdom." Like we I I want Jesus. Jesus is the prize and and whatever he has in store

for me that that's what I want. Everything has to be based on this book. A diligent study of this book like in the book of Hebrews. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen. The classic amplified says the the title deed to things we hope for that you can't see that has not been revealed to the physical senses. Well, I'll believe it when I see it. That was Thomas's problem. Jesus said Thomas quit being faithless. Some had great faith, the centurion. Some had a little faith, some had no

faith, but the Lord just dealt with it. And uh and so we have to deal with it. I have control where my household is concerned. I don't have control where yours is concerned. All I can do is witness to you based here. Do you think that's a common misconception about the prosperous message is they they see you preach it, they see you reaping the benefits of it, and so they think, well, if I go to brother Copelan, then my life's going to change because I go to him. Do you think that's a common misconception? Like

it seems to me what you're saying is if you want it appears like what you're talking about is you if you want to experience this prosperous message, you have to take it for yourself. Well, if they come to me, I'm just going to show them what I know. Now, there's been times that people have come to me and the Lord say, "You do this." There's been time people came to me and the Lord said, "You let them alone. I'm dealing with them over this. you just go to the book and show them. And so if

I have the opportunity, I'm going to take it to witness. And as we were talking earlier, I baptized in a welder a serial killer. Yeah. Could God save a man like that? Well, certainly. And I won't go into to all of that, But here here's the thing. I have authority over my household. But I don't have authority over yours. If you come to me for help, we're going to sit down and we're going to pray and we're going to get this book out and we're going to discuss the problems and see what the situation is.

Now, in the Bible, when it talks about how the one area to test God in is is with your finances, do you believe that that scripture is saying when I test God with my money, I get money back? Is that what you believe that is saying? What do you believe about that passage? Now, tell it to me again. You know, the Bible says that the one area we test God in is with our money. Now, it said over there in the book of Malachi, I believe so. Yes, sir. Turn over there to it. And so,

when we go to when we hear that in scripture, like, do you believe that that is saying like if I'm testing God with my money, right? Does that mean that as a believer they get money back or does that mean that they I don't ever test God with my money. I don't even know what that means. I believe that this is what I believe that means, right? I'll give you an example. Like I when I God called us to Los Angeles, California in 2022 and I had never even stepped foot in Los Angeles, California, much

less I know that I don't know that's the most expensive place in the country or Manhattan, either one. And so I I so when God called me there, I'm like, well, well, God, I'm 18. I you know, I can't even afford to live there. Don't know what that looks like. So I said, I'm going to act out in obedience. God, I'm going to move there cuz you called me there. That's that's what Abraham did every time. That's what Abraham did. I think one of the the appeals and and one of my cautions about that prosperous

message, too, is I think there are a lot of people that could say, "Oh, well, I'm going to test God in that area." Right? You know, it may not make sense in the carnal to make that decision. I'm going to do it. There's a place in the scripture where it says that. But in testing him, you do it by faith. Now, does that mean that someone gets money back like when they test him in that? Well, let let's let's turn over here to Philippians chapter 4. The answer is right there. Now, you remember this church

was a convict church. Now, here we're back at that passage 411. No, let's back up before that. This is so important. Number verse four. Rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say, Rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. Be careful or worry. Don't care. Be careful for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving. Huh? With thanksgiving. What you say long enough will finally get down in your heart and begin to control your life. I had said over and over, I don't like exercise. I just

hate it. I don't want to fool with it. I'm all suited up. I'm going to obey God. And I got in there and I grabbed that thing and I said, I just hate this. No. Oh, God, forgive me. I love it. I got on the treadmill. He said, "Kenneth, I sacrificed my body for yours. Now you're sacrificing yours for mine." That's what he was after all the time. It didn't have to do with just my body. It's to keep me going, keep me moving. Finally, grab brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever

things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, it can be true, but not lovely. Whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report. If there be any virtue and if there be any praise, Think on these things. Those things which you have both learned and received and heard and seen in me, do it. And the God of peace, shalom, nothing missing, nothing broken shall be with you. Now, shalom is Hebrew for prosperity. Think about this. The Lord says, "Now I want you to I want you to sew so much into that

ministry." He asked me to do it. So something is missing in my life. I go to Mark 10. He's going to replace it 10fold, 100fold, some 10, some 30, some 100. Depends on what my faith and what my level is. Don't ever let it be said ever that God has ever put any kind of a sickness or a disease on somebody to teach them something. Book of James. Don't you dare do that. That's Now, if something happens and he teaches you from it, that's different. But he didn't do it. Yeah. God doesn't cause suffering. God

I think God can allow allow things. Well, there's some things he has to He has to allow things. That's where the good. Yeah. Where the good character comes from produces endurance. So, you pray and you don't listen and you have a quickening in your spirit ought to wait 30 minutes and you don't. You have a car wreck. Why'd you let that happen to me? Did you ever have a hunch? That's your spirit trying to get a hold of you, man. I probably ought not go right now. You better listen to that. Here's what the Lord

said to me. Don't ever underestimate a delay. He's always on time. But if he says, "Hold up here for a few seconds." you better hold up and let whatever problem get by that he already knew about instead of pushing your wife to get ready and we got to go now. Reason I'm saying that because I know some opport uh he started interviews. Everyone he interviewed said, "Yeah, if id have waited a little bit, that wouldn't have happened. Or if I hadn't have turned in that direction, that wouldn't have happened." Now, that doesn't mean you be

late work to late to work every morning. My dad said if you're on time, you're 15 minutes late. You get there before everybody. That's the reason he never had a he always had a job during the Great Depression. Never was without a job during the depression. So, let's continue to read here. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things now, those things which you have Seen both and learned and received and heard and seen in me, do and the God of peace will be with you. Now, I want to say this to young preachers. How many of them can

say that the integrity of any person, I don't care whether they're in the ministry or not, the integrity of the written word and the absolute integrity and understanding what a quality decision is and then write it down based on his word. And if you'll write your word down based on his word, he'll honor your word as you honor his. A quality decision is one based on this book about which there is no more argument and from which there's no more to treat retreat. And I step across that line of faith and this is where we're

going. But anyway, I I need to get over here and we we'll answer the question that brought up in the first place. while you're flipping, you know, I'm thinking of Matthew 6 right now when when Jesus talks about, hey, you know, kind of kind of hinting at what a little bit of Paul's writing. Don't be anxious about anything. Oh, yeah. God clothe the liies of the field in their beauty and they don't try and he feeds the birds of the air with them out trying. You know, how much more will he provide for you? And

that gives me peace as a believer with stepping out in big decisions. And first Peter chapter 5, It helps when making big decisions. Cast the hold of your care over on him. Absolutely. And then pray a lot. Absolutely. A lot. I think my my biggest the thing that that's that's hard for me to understand or the cautious thing again like with that that prosperous message is I think to people cuz we're human beings and we have that human nature. The thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health, and wealth message is those things

rather than Jesus. And so, you know, when I when I think back at that time I moved to LA, like I didn't step out because I wanted some benefits and blessings. I stepped out cuz I wanted Jesus himself. And that's what he told you to do. And I'm and I'm trusting him, right? Trusting that that his way is better. That's it. But then why would a farmer go out in a field and produce a crop and then not take any of it cuz he cuz he didn't want to go against God? Let me tell you,

my spiritual father Robert, they were itinerate preachers. Mhm. I mean, they didn't have any place to live. And he said they were in a he was pastor of a church in Enid, Oklahoma. This was before the the really healing miracle ministry started and he wrote a book called Seed Time and Harvest. But anyway, the uh she said, "Oral, you get a house for me or I'm taking these kids." He said, "You wouldn't do that." She said, "You just try me." Well, they in a Wednesday night service, he had been paid his $50. And he said,

I don't know what came over me. I just said, "Anybody got a hat?" And he said, "I I I started it. I put my our our $50 in that hat." And I He said, "I got home and she said, Oral, you didn't do that." He said, "You think it is cold in January?" He said, but he said, "I got a knock on the on the deacon's door at 3:00 in the morning, and I got up and answered it." He said, "It was the wealthiest farmer in the county." He said, "Ora, I'm I'm ashamed of myself

that I didn't put anything in that that offering." He said, "I've been playing the stock market. I'm about to lose my farm, but I know I'm a farmer, and to get a crop, I'm going to have to sew a seed." He said, "I had this in a can and and I went home and I dug it up and there's four $100 bills." Brother Roberts said, "We had never seen a $100 bill." He said, "I just went in there and I just fanned that out and said, "This is our harvest on that 50." Well, that's the

fourth chapter of the book of Mark. The sewer sews the seed. And it never did talk anything about the ser. It always talked about the soil upon which it fell. So right here, Well, I think that right here is where it is in that chapter of Mark in Mark chapter 4, those seeds that that he because he Jesus explains that parable. He wasn't necessarily talking about money. He was talking about like the gospel going forward. That's right. Sure. But how does it go forth? Goes by people delivering the good news. That's right. But they don't

have they can't do it for nothing. That's the reason he said some 30, some 60, and some 100fold. But he shows why some it entered into their heart. They let it fail. The thorns choked them out. That persecution arises for the words sake. But here it is, verse 15. And you Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only. For even in Thessalonica you sent once again to my necessity, not because I desire a gift, but I desire

fruit that may abound to your account. I have all and abound. I am full, having received of Eproditis the things which were sent from you, an odor of sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God, my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Now, let's go back over here. God provides for our needs. And that's what you and that's what you read here at the at that end of that that Philippians 4 God God providing for our needs. And I think even that for me when I

hear that prosperous message and I think a lot of people that that that are are listening to it the attraction is they think oh I'm going to get the things that I want. You know well what about the 23rd Psalm? For the Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. We shouldn't want. We lack nothing with Jesus. That's right. My wants. It depends on what I want and why. The apostle said, "He gives us richly all things to enjoy." Well, I enjoy motorcycles, but I don't spend all my time messing with those things. I spend

thousands of hours doing this other than messing around with an airplane or those motorcycles. But I enjoy them. That That's a That's a genuine question I had. You know, that's something I like I strug I struggle with is understanding like I I I'm pretty I'm an extreme person, me personally. Like I'm all in on something when I love it. And so, welcome to the club. What What is the What is the fine balance? You know what I mean? What's the balance of of not being excessive? Like where where do you draw the line personally? Where

do you find, hey, this is something I enjoy versus this is something that may be sitting on the throne of my heart? Let's take a pastor for instance. The old thing you you keep we you keep him humble. We'll keep him broke. I'd like To know where that is in the gospel. It ain't in there. You don't muzzle the ox that treads out the corn. And you and you you you study these covenants and why they're there and what they say. I've seen this happen. I'm sad to say. You don't pay the pastor so much

money, it hurts the church. And you don't keep him down enough that it hurts him and his family. So you set guidelines from this. And you don't have a deaconpossessed church. You have a God orained church. And you have a board of directors, not a board of trustees. Well, you could call them that. I get what you mean when you say that, though. Yeah. board of directors and on our compensation, they are men that have no way of receiving anything from us financially. Now, everyone else in there, they have something to say about it. But

these men that are on that compensation committee, then they will meet, they take all of the finances of the ministry, they take everything in account, all of it, and have since day one. They take everything that has to do with anything in the account of the ministry. That's first, what I call the rolling stock. We didn't build the out here. Brother Roberts built a prayer tower. We built a chapel, first building on the property, 1500 acres of land on abandon Airport. We didn't put this airport back into operation for years and years before we ever

touched it. That's not where the money went. We were keeping our airplanes somewhere else. That's fine. We get in a car and drive. But you you have these men where you sit down and you discuss it. You take the finances of the ministry. You take all of this put together. What is this part doing? What is this department doing? We had a worldwide communion service one time. A man by the name Thomas Clyde McGee. And every time you use your satellite in your car, you say, "Thank God for Tommy Boy, a born again, Holy Ghost

baptized believer with a slide rule. Put that first satellite out there 24,000 miles. made it in orbit of this earth. Did you ever hear of the Blackwood Brothers quote? Mm-m. I mean, if they were doing a concert, I mean, Christians would come from all over to see the His wife was a Blackwood. Oh, wow. And they called them birds. And a man by the name of Halverson would get down in front of Clyde and he'd say, "Birds, birds. Come out, birds. Clyde, you haven't get Yeah, I know what it mean. Birds. And he said, "Kenneth,

I'd get hung up and I go home." And I said, "Baby doll, let's pray." And the Lord would give him the answer. He put the first satellite out there. So I called Him. I said, "Clean, the Lord has directed us to have a worldwide communion service." And uh, "Can you do that?" "Yeah." I said, "How?" He said, "I don't know, but you know Philippians 4. You know the little plastic cups we do communion with today?" Yeah. When every time you think you say, "Thank you, brother Clyde. Uh Wrigley did that for us in the Fort

Worth Convention Center. We had 15,000 people in there. Wow. And they did that so that we didn't have to use glasses. It resulted in a $6 million deficit. I waited till the middle of the night. I got a board meeting the next day. Best meeting we've ever had. Best year we've ever had. TV 24,000 or 6 million in debt. And I said, he said, "The TV department is the one you carried. You didn't roll the car of that over on me." Gloria, get down here now. Well, you could. I mean, you got to have what?

You got the bill and then that's 6 million. It was in record time and for The first time in history, we paid our TV bill with one check and we've never been behind anymore. I'm not carrying that anymore. But we had worldwide communion. It was just a magnificent thing. So, but all of it is based right here. Well, I I appreciate you opening it up with me and and going through and listen to listen to this. Now, here here it all is. Let me ask you something. The fruit in the garden, correct? What do you

think it was? Well, they say it was the knowledge of good and evil. I mean, what was the fruit? Like, what actual fruit do I think it was? Well, people always describe it as an apple. That's the the basic. What did they dress with? Leaves. It was the fig tree. And oh, I'm telling you, he upset. I mean, he upset everybody on that colt. They went their way, found the colt tied, and uh and certain of them stood there. What are you going to do with it? He like he said, and with many garments in

the way, and others cut off brows, and they went crying, hosana, blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. Blessed is the kingdom of our father David. Cometh in the name of the Lord. Hosana. Oh, you telling my listen, he really caused a lot of trouble for himself right there then. And I I like to think of that like this, too. They weren't worshiping the the colt. He was the carrier. I'm the colt, and he's riding my back. Seeing a fig tree a far off having leaves, he came if happily he might

find anything there on. The fig tree and the leaves are supposed to be there at the same time. had nothing but leaves, for the time of figs was not yet. Well, the leaves were there in too early. And he answered and said to it, "No man eat fruit of you hereafter forever." And his disciples heard it. Now he had gone into the temple the night before and came out and waited till the day to do anything. He went back to Bethany and he did all the Is it not written, my house shall be called a

nation of house of prayer? You've made it a den of thieves. So now when he cursed that fig tree, he didn't look back. He just headed Jerusalem. He didn't pay attention to it. Peter calling remembrance said, "Master or rabbi, behold the fig tree." This fig tree paid the price for that one in the garden. Praise God. Whether he did or not, I like it. Wow. It looks good to me. Which you cursed has withered away. I mean, this thing just was nothing. But the fig tree provided the opportunity. Have faith in God. The reference says

have the faith of God. For verily I say unto you, this is a whosoever shall say unto this mountain, be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he say shall come to pass, he shall have whatsoever he says. And in he did it. Therefore, I say unto you, what things soever you desire. When you pray, believe that you receive them. And when you stand praying, forgive if you have ought against any, that your father also in heaven forgive you your

trespasses. If you don't forgive, neither will your father forgive in heaven forgive you. And that's it. We stop, pray, and listen. And that's what built this ministry. this and the other verses around it. Gloria and I, our family, John, Terry, George, Kelly, both sides of our family honored our fathers and mothers all the days of our lives. Yeah. And Jeremy is pastoring a church up in Green River Falls, Colorado. When he was three years old, he I wore a vest and pocket was he get me a B py I preach. He'd been preaching all of

his life. This then is the bottom line. A book of covenants. It's the Holy Bible. And this is just as much God as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Do you care if I pray for us really quick as we close? Please do. Jesus, thank you so much for today. Hey God, thank you for allowing uh brother Kenneth to spend time with me and and us have a conversation about his upbringing, his life, Jesus and and and this this prosperity message, what it looks like, navigating it, the hard conversations. God,

thank you for this day. Thank you for breath inside of our lungs. Lord, would your face continue to shine upon us? We love you, Jesus. It's in your name we pray. Amen.