Entrevista Especial com Dr. Steve Daily Ph.D

Foreign [Music] thank you so much for being here thank you for the pleasure of receiving you here uh this is a great opportunity for us as a channel who is just starting in Brazil we're just giving the first steps towards the helping people to understand uh the Adventist Church and have more information about the history and you're the perfect person to help us to Understand and to navigate for this to this portion first I would like to give you the opportunity to introduce yourself tell us about a little bit about your your background your experience

in the in the or as the organization in Advantage organization and how your life is going today good all right thanks Rodrigo I appreciate you inviting me on um I grew up in adventism and um you know I was certainly uh not Particularly a spiritual kid uh I love sports my dad loves sports he was Raising me to play baseball football basketball I went to public school initially and I was excelling in sports and that was my total passion in life I wasn't finding Sabbath schools or the Adventist religion particularly attractive it seemed quite guilt

producing but um anyway my my folks moved me Adventist schools in junior high and that basically wiped out my sports program in the world and um you know I was quite discouraged about that and I still wasn't particularly spiritual at all in fact I was pretty rebellious at that point uh I could hardly say a sentence without profanity and you know growing up in the Sports World and uh that's kind of everything I Knew and then I had a powerful experience with God when I was 16 that told me that God was real and that

really began to change my perspective about God spirituality religion um I went to reel into Academy after that which was a very conservative Adventist Academy and again they taught all the guilt producing uh you know condemnation kind of stuff Ellen White was paraded over everything but at that point I said okay I know God's real I'm going to try to see if I can change the Adventist Church in a more healthy way so I went into the ministry with that hope and tried to spend my whole Ministry the 35 years that I spent in adventism

doing my best to try to change uh the direction of adventism in a more healthy way and I got a lot of Education during that period I became a licensed Psychologist and I got a master's in history focusing on Adventist history he got a doctoral degree from Claremont so I I got a lot of education and I also taught Adventist history uh psychology and religion at lumberland University for 24 years so I had a lot of experience with adventism and um you know I I always felt that I was kind of kicking against the Pricks

in Adventism they were always uh giving me a hard time I always felt like I was kind of on the verge of getting kicked out even when I wrote adventism for a new generation I I was kind of protected by the Liberals in Southern Cal but the rest of the church you know the conservatives were attacking me like mad but um you know basically uh when I finally decided that uh adventism was not going to change in a Particular healthy direction as I could see it in 2010 I had some other experiences with the church

that just made me decide it's time to leave and a good part of our congregation felt the same way so I started you know we started this um independent Church Congregational Church called Kingdom my fellowship and I really I didn't plan on looking back at adventism again but um in 2012 the white estate got Hacked and uh is that information began to come on to the internet and I saw it I realized that they had held withheld important information for me as a researcher and lied about it and that really uh bothered me so I

decided to research into some of this new stuff and that's what really produced my LNG white psychobiography book I was convinced that Ellen White was a false prophet really before I left adventism now you know I was Fully convinced that Not only was she a false prophet but she was a a fraud and a con artist and uh that she was involved with a lot of really gross life patterns of dishonesty and deceitfulness that were really quite tragic and that most Adventists had no clue about so yeah that's why I wrote the psychobiography but you

may have another question to follow up I understand thank you so much for for The introduction um I completely understand uh both uh your trajectory from the beginning the pressure in the middle and now uh the realization of how Ellen White was actually a false prophet and how that became your your book an amazing book by the way um I have here on my hands this the guy here this book actually helped this channel a lot to go through and navigate through the framework of the Whole history and how to build up the pieces to

present in an easy way so they can understand so this book is available I'm going to just add the link on the description below so you can buy it and please read this book it's amazing do you have any plans to translate the book in different languages in Spanish for languages and and I'm pretty much open to just anyone who wants to do that you Know that um I'm glad to just work with them and try to support them and and help them and uh you know work together with them in in any uh project

like that awesome awesome Dr Steve uh since our audience they are still in a process of learning like uh baby steps pretty much from the beginning uh I like to go to this historical phase first and you know observe as much knowledge from you uh in Terms of the the chronological sequence of events not all of them but the primarily one uh and then after that we can go through the second phase presenting the consequences for the organization today uh based on the history so a lot of people in Brazil they know about the story

of William Miller they know the whole uh the whole plot let's say uh however they have trouble understanding uh the the profile of William Miller and uh how important That period from 1832 to 1844 how this beer was crucial to to form the new movement that comes right I have came right after uh can you tell a little bit very quickly about your perspective of William Miller in the his responsibility pretty much of whatever happens after yeah I mean uh well on William William Miller was a deist and uh he became a strong fundamentalist Christian

who um became fairly obsessed with Bible Prophecy and um he wasn't coming from the same place where Ellen was during those years it's quite fascinating to see the difference between the young Ellen and Miller before the 1844 disappointment but um Miller you know obviously got influenced by Himes and others that got him into the uh more and more into the date setting and Finally when they failed in October 22 of 1844 at least he was honest enough to say we were wrong we missed the boat we need to move on from here but the Adventists

uh who surrounded Ellen White weren't willing to do that they wanted to try to justify their belief in the end of the world on October 22 1844 and the way they did that was through the shut door belief the shut door doctrine that probation had closed for the entire world On October 22 1844 and that the only one saved were those who had accepted and held on to that millerite message which was only about 150 people or so that surrounded Ellen White and um you know her first Vision at the age of 17 when she

uh confirmed the shut door she said God gave her the specific day and hour of his return he showed her uh that the whole Wicked World was lost and The only ones that would be saved were the ones climbing up this narrow pathway as long as they didn't fall off so it was basically a very guilt producing situation where as long as you're part of our group you can be saved but everyone else is lost and uh that was the initial shut door teaching about as cultic as you can possibly get and um you know

Ellen was very much influenced by Miller there's no question About that but he wasn't the only influence in her life uh obviously she had the major injury at the age of nine but even before that um she had some psychological problems to say the least at the age of eight she wanted to die she wanted to take her own life but she was afraid she was lost so um you know she had the suicidal ideation all this fear which is kind of surprising given that they were a Methodist Family of course methodists were way more

conservative back then than they are today but they still weren't known as these super fundamentalist type of Christians but the shouting methodists which is the group that Ellen became involved with were much more conservative much more fundamentalist and also extremely charismatic and they were also extremely legalist and so that was a bad combination they Had all this weird demonic stuff and crazy stuff that would accompany their camp meetings and Ellen was baptized into this movement she wasn't baptized into the normal Methodist Church she was baptized into the shouting Methodist camp meeting uh world and uh

they were as wild and charismatic as you can possibly be all kinds of barking and crawling and they had these Rings where uh Rings had to call down the Holy Spirit and if you Weren't part of a ring the Holy Spirit couldn't come down so they would shout down the speakers and preachers who would come around and everything was about this ring theology which was completely ridiculous it was really this legalistic thing about which ring is more holier than the other ring and there would be a bunch of these different rings and they would all

try to out shout each other wow and that's why they were called the shouting Methodists because they believed that whoever shouted the loudest and showed the greatest passion that that's where the Holy Spirit would come down and the Holy Spirit wasn't with the speakers or the preachers you know they drove these Methodist circuit preachers crazy excuse me they would just out and scream and do all this weird bizarre fanatical behavior all over the camp meeting and no one was listening to them but that was not part of the Traditional Methodist Church that is kind of

a separate sect of the church or kind of a different faction of the church yeah it was actually part of the same Methodist Church it's just that the camp meetings were very very different than your typical Methodist Church and there were some Methodist churches that would still have you know a fair amount of charismatic activity in them but nothing compared to this crazy camp meeting stuff and it was In the camp meeting that Owen was baptized and where she found her niche that's where she got acceptance that's where she even was recognized as a leader

when she was just a teenager because of her Visionary claims and um so she was baptized into this extreme fanaticism extreme emotionalism uh is is charismatic as you could possibly be and she went from that to Israel Daemon Who was also this very fanatic charismatic guy who got arrested and his meetings got closed down for disturbing the peace and no one was right there in the middle of it and um you know she got disfellowshipped from the Methodist Church for their involvement with millerism and then she was involved with Israel Daemon but he rejected her

as having false Visions too So even this crazy fanatic Israel Damon found Ellen White to be a false prophet and even more extreme than he was willing to do and then she gets into the millerite movement and claims to be this Visionary and um you know got some status within millerism but millerism wasn't a charismatic movement for the most part it was much more fundamentalist much More based on Bible prophecy so Ellen was getting her own little following in millerism but these were mainly the ones that followed her after the great disappointment and after Miller

and the others said hey we were wrong um we need to go a different direction and Alan uh you know claimed that no the shut door has occurred and God showed me this envision and um so Ellen went to the most extreme cultic You know Direction and uh she was followed by the ones that were the most extreme uh these were people that were so devastated by the millerite disappointment so desperate to find something to latch on to that this 17 year old Visionary became what they latched on to and what's interesting is that her

first vision was clearly plagiarized from Joseph Turner you know correct it wasn't even like she got this vision from God she Plagiarized it from Joseph Turner who was the one teaching at that door Doctrine but then she claims from God which is what Ellen did her whole life she took things from other people claimed she got them from God and then they got accepted in adventism because she claimed she got them from God um every single thing that happened happened because of that pattern and That's important for evanus to understand um you know right off

the bat even as early as well first she uh starts traveling around with James and there's four is church mice so they have absolutely no money and they're trying to get money from these little groups to help support them but generally this is a very poor Community a lot of these people even gave up everything in the great Disappointment and stuff so these were not very well off people generally uh Bates was one of the exceptions he had been a ship captain his whole life and he had some wealth so you know he was one

of the few people that was kind of considering the movement but he wasn't convinced of the Visions so that becomes very important um soon but yeah interesting yeah one of the things one of the things one of the things I would like just to catch on on Exactly what are you say now on 1845 Albany New York William Miller made a statement about fanaticism right and he was clear about the two lines of movements that were happening that time saying guys wake up what is happening here this is not good so stay away from there

let's keep the track we made a mistake but do not get involved with that he was directly mentioning about Ellen White's group right precisely that's exactly who he was Identifying and exactly exactly who he was rejecting so the millerites who tried to move in a more healthy direction rejected the millerites who followed Ellen and became part of this tiny little group that was bred in fanaticism but um you know Ellen kept her fanaticism going right off you know right after her first Vision which Announced the shut door announced probation was closed for everyone except a

little group and if you left your probation would be closed but um you know miles Grant wrote a book about these early years and he quoted Lucinda Hall who who was the best friend of Ellen White she traveled with Ellen White wherever she went and James of course was also traveling with Ellen during this early period before they got Married and people were making comments about the inappropriateness of that that was a day where males and females didn't travel and chaperoned if they were unmarried so um there were a lot of rumors going around about

James and Ellen and uh it was also the case that Lucinda was seeing them go to these little house churches and ask for money and try to convince people that uh you know they needed support because they were Announcing the end of the world to all these little group groups that needed to stay faithful until Jesus returned and in the process of doing that Ellen announced that the Lord would return in June of 1845 that was another Vision she claimed to get so that was another specific date that was set June of 1845 and when

that passed you know she was confronted of course hey what's going on here you said you got a vision that he's coming back by the end of June well I Misunderstood the vision Alan said uh they announced it to me the angel announced it to me in the language of Canaan and I didn't understand so what the angel was really saying was it was the second planting and harvest not the first so God is going to return definitely by the end of September of that year so again she said it's another day and once again

that passes with her looking like a fool so more and more people were getting uh really Impatient and suspicious of what was going on because she's asking them for money she's claiming they're going to receive all this persecution and opposition so these small groups give them money and then she comes back and and says they said did you receive any persecution or office oh no no we had a wonderful trip so people were getting more and more kind of impatient and disillusioned yeah Ellen kept holding Them on to the group with her condemnation you know

anyone who dared to leave got completely condemned and what was funny was you know James and Ellen were condemning anyone who got married before they got married and even specific couples were condemned but then when James was being uh pressured that hey you know this really looks bad he told Ellen you know we have to get married or else I'm gonna have to quit traveling with you so they had kind Of a shotgun marriage even though they were telling everyone else it was a sin to get married at that point but then they go ahead

and get married and this is just typical of kind of the hypocrisy that James and Ellen engaged in but um you know I understand I understand completely this this uh timeline you've just presented is pretty much the that's called the beginnings right the Beginnings of everything and yeah that first seven year period is is the most crucial period in understanding Adventist history one of the questions has always had it was the relationship between Joseph Bates and Ellen White and James White so this relationship this Trio um I know Joseph Bates wants two things the first

thing was the understanding of the sanctuary and the second thing is the presenting the Sabbath uh from the The Seventh-Day Baptists these two information they were holding like saying two hands and say guys I got it I got it so how Ellen White and James White received Joseph Bates in that perspective and also why they accepted Joseph Bates with these two uh theories or these two gifts yes very good that was the next thing I was coming to is Joseph Bates and uh I mentioned Ellen White and James were his poorest Church mice when they

got married they just Didn't have any income to speak of and they were desperately in need of someone to support them and they basically targeted uh Bates as the one they needed to get because he had some money and he was older more mature he was respected in the group and he was also very much into astronomy he'd written a book on astronomy so they targeted him and knew he was going to be at a house church and this is where Ellen claims to have her great Vision on astronomy she goes off in division she's

waving her arms flying through space talking about you know the funny thing was she had read bates's book on astronomy but she claimed that she hadn't she claimed that she'd never been taught anything about astronomy ever but it was obvious that she had carefully read bates's book and was using that to deceive him or dupe him into believing that God was showing her all the stuff because he's she's saying Things about these planets without naming them that were in bates's book and um that you know he would jump out there and say oh that's sad

or no that's Jupiter and so she was just feeding him along and um you know she threw in a few extras like these beings living beings on Jupiter and Saturn that of course weren't there but Bates had no way of knowing that so You know he thought oh wow she's seeing actual beings living on these planets but she gives the exact number of moons that Bates had in his book that was what was known at that time which is completely inaccurate today so it obviously wasn't God showing her this stuff she she had gotten it

from bates's book and she was using that information to try to bait him into supporting her visions and they succeeded in doing that after This meeting he became convinced that yes she did get this vision from God and now he became a co-founder the three of them really became the co-founders of adventism once Bates got duped by this vision and started help supporting the whites um and it also benefited Bates a lot because now he became much more powerful and influential because he was one of The top three and Ellen would support what he'd say

through Visions he got the Sabbath of course like you say from The Seventh-Day Baptist from Rachel Oaks Preston and uh Adventists weren't buying into it really uh some were some weren't but then of course Ellen has the vision that shows the fourth Commandment elevated above all the rest with the Halo on it and total condemnation if you don't accept it and That's what always happens in adventism Evan has claimed they get their stuff from the Bible but the truth is they get it for melon White's Visions it's always Ellen White's visions that are that really

determine whether Adventists accepts something or not and they accepted the Sabbath because not because of Bates but because of Ellen White's Vision even though it came from Bates and um it's not long after that that Bates Comes up with the seven year Theory where he uh teaches that Christ is going to return on October 22 1851. seven years after the great disappointment and Ellen buys this she jumps on board and she starts making quotes and statements so there's only a few months left before the pro close the probation starts and all this because she she's

going right along with bates's Theory and Um you know basically uh Adventists completely deny this stuff they uh you know you look at Francis Nichols book on the shut where he he gives tons of pages to the shut door and he never even deals with the actual original documents decently at all he quotes her later statements where she denies having said and seen the things that she earlier claimed So that that's the typical evidence way Arthur white did the same thing yeah I have the I have the books from Nichols here I have the original

version from uh 19 1940 something but just jumping on the same subject you mentioning one of the the last episode we we published on the channel was about higher ads and was a one hour episode going from the start all the way to his manuscripts and my question at the end of the episode Even producing that was why hiring Edson uh let let go or or at least gave up of the vision perspective uh opening the door through the interpretation from uh Andrews and because that is a that is something that I can understand first

you said you had a vision or so first you said I was walking I saw something from that everything was built on upon that and at the end of the day at the end of your life you say you know never mind that This is the right interpretation even that was you the first place who said okay this is my vision yeah yeah I mean there there's just so much uh problem in early Adventist history that it's really ridiculous uh the shut door was the completely dominant thing that first seven year period along with the

seven year Theory and of course they embraced the Sabbath during that time as well But um as it got down to the very end of the seven year period Ellen is still promoting this big time in the early part of the summer but by the time you get down to the end of August it becomes pretty obvious that there's no time of trouble that none of the stuff she predicted is happening so now she starts to try to back away from it she made one statement in August where she's trying to start to back away

From the seven year Theory because she clearly sees that it's not going to happen and she's going to be proven wrong again but of course she was proven wrong again Bates was proven wrong and at that point Adventists just realized hey we got to give up on this shut door stupidity it's making fools of us so they uh delete it from her writings they delete it from her Publications without acknowledgment James and Ellen did this together now They start fishing for something that what can we replace the shut door with and it's this idea that

Christ shut the door in the Holy place and went into the most holy place to start this investigative judgment in 1844. which again is nonsense it's unbiblical for clearly demonstrating how unbiblical it is the term investigative judgment wasn't even used until 1855 but the notion was that um You know they were going to uh make people forget about all their shut door visions and now Embrace this new way of thinking about Christ moving from the holy place to the most holy place which of course is nonsense the Bible says he went up and was at

the right hand of the father and that's where he's been ever since was to make intercession for us but this whole Heavenly Sanctuary business is stephanus invented to try to salvage uh all the damage they'd done Through the shut door and it never has made any sense anyone who knows their Bibles has recognized that Ford just went to the extreme of showing it in a thousand plus pages but um you know the bottom line is that adventism has always been characterized by dishonesty lying cover-up from from the very beginning that that has always been its

Legacy and um It doesn't matter what period you study you know in the 1850s they realized they weren't bringing in enough money they used to just volunteer um offerings so James says well since we're under the old Covenant Sabbath we ought to be under the old Covenant tithing system and gets Andrews to work with him and of course the people aren't receptive to this at all you know they're saying forget you we're Not going under this required 10 tithe with additional offerings and uh so then of course they bring in the dream machine they bring

in the vision machine and Ellen starts having all these visions that condemn people to hell if they don't pay the tithe and so once again it's the same old story that adventism accepts what it accepts because of the visions of Ellen White and the strong condemnations of Ellen on anyone who doesn't accept your Visions Yes yes so you know that's just the historical pattern throughout her entire life yeah I'm asking something uh what I receive one take from this period I think I would like to hear from you is how Ellen White uh got the

authority as a visionaire not for the group of leaders but for the followers how how is that possible to for her to get the authority as a real visionaire messenger from God and I just want to make a quick comment Like using Atkinson as an example at one of the episodes we had was about Atkinson actually three parts and in one of the parts studying that we we learned about her participation in that specific service or we can call Service uh was really because she was able to present what was happening in people's life and

people were searching for her because you know she knows what she's saying she mentioned something correctly about my life about life of my wife etc Etc so I what I understood it was she really had something she was presented something that was of course not from God how she got the authority as a visionaire for the lay people for the followers yeah I mean I meant to whether Ellen White Ever Had spiritualistic influences um the Christian Scholars Forum one of Their Scholars is currently writing a book about Ellen White and the Demonic and um you

know that that's a very interesting study of itself she had this green cord and all the weird stuff that she was spiritualistically involved with so you know there's various theories about whether she was just psychologically unstable emotionally unstable how these things Coupled with the hysteria that a lot of women uh prophets experienced in the mid 19th century or was she actually demonically um influenced you know I don't try to take a hard stand on that I'm open to different interpretations including the fact that she could have had a spirit guide that was demonic um from

the wrong side the dark side so I don't rule that out but um you know Many con artists uh that do prophetic stuff have very effective ways of finding things out about people just like she did about Bates and then making them think that she's seeing this stuff in vision so you know she could have easily done that with a lot of people she was a convincing person you know the fact that she convinced her whole family that um She needed to be bedridden and cared for all the time and freed from the normal duties

of young women at that age or after her injury she was very effective with that she was very effective in the shouting Methodist movement where they actually gave her a role of leadership as a young teenager that's very unusual she she gained prominence with Israel Damon quickly before he rejected her she gained prominence in the millerite Movement with those who were charismatically inclined and they were the ones that were at least open you know I don't know that all these people that started following her were particularly charismatically inclined but they were definitely desperate what we

have to understand is the desperation level of these people who went through the great disappointment in 1844 and then latched on to l and y I think they were the most desperate of all the millerites and willing to latch onto whatever they could to try to give them hope and Ellen was what they chose to latch onto so they were ridiculously invested in this young woman and the cognitive dissonance was extremely great for them to deny her or reject her so there were all kinds of psychological factors involved here that caused the small group to

really uh encircle Ellen White and give her this leadership position in their movement even when she failed with so many of her prophecies and stuff you know the the few things that were successful like her conversion abates that got trumpeted everywhere they immediately put it in the church paper and made a huge deal of it and this was the but you know there were people leaving the Whole time Lucinda Burdick her best friend completely rejected her miles Grant we'd been a friend to hers completely rejected her so there were people rejecting her during this period

but they would get completely dismissed they would be condemned to hell um and they would never be brought up again you know they and they were deleting of course everything that was kind of self-condeming of her from these early Publications and then once 1851 Passed their whole emphasis changed to evangelism bringing in new people convincing new people that this was the great prophet of God who was getting all these Visions so a lot of the new converts were brought in on that very basis that we have the last great true Visionary the last day prophet

of the world and um so it was these kinds of people who got attracted into the cult yeah That kind of explains itself you know that the more people were invested in believing this is the true Remnant church because we have the true prophet and the Sabbath uh it was all self-reinforcing and um you know she ended up getting away with a lot of dishonesty stealing all the stuff from the health reformers and you know she would be confronted about stuff but she always lied her way out of it You know and um was fairly

effective doing that people didn't have the same digital ways of checking up on things and stuff that they do today there was internet uh there were a whole bunch of factors that enabled her to get away with a lot of dishonesty that she never could have gotten away with today interesting interesting uh one if you can in a in a short in a short term said say like How was the framework after uh the the official organization of the The Seventh-Day Adventist Church Alan white was locked inside of her house having visions James White was

expanding territory uh with new churches planting churches and you know hiring new preachers missionaries Etc and how this framework uh actually functioned during that time so she was 100 dedicated to have the Visions have the be the messenger while her husband was The guy pushing out the business yeah I mean to some degree that's the case uh even with James you know Ellen's favor as far as the Visions went back and forth he quit publishing her Visions in 1851 after uh she so dismally failed with regard to the shut door and the second couple and

he didn't publish a one of them between 1851 and 1855 when he was replaced by Uriah Smith as the review and Herald editor so I think James Himself knew that Allen was not on the up and up and of course he knew that when they dupe Bates and he he realized that his ticket was Ellen's Visions so he had this love-hate relationship between Ellen's visions and himself uh you know she tried to bring God's Wrath down on him and he said forget that you know I'll use my own brain I know better than to let

you try to control my life but their marriage was pretty difficult Uh throughout their years together but um you know he James knew pretty much what was going on but he had to promote Ellen for his own benefit and then there were others that were deceived like uh you know Uriah Smith was completely deceived when he came in In 1855 he was promoting the Visions like mad because he'd been converted through that process and later on he would come to realize That they weren't what what she claimed them to be but um early on he

was a fanatical supporter of Ellen White's visions but um basically uh the whites were pretty clever you know they weren't highly educated but they did have a lot of emotional intelligence and once they uh moved on from the whole 1851 Fiasco they were pretty clever in the way they Tried to pull a new Believers new uh converts to the faith um they would even go out of their way to recruit you know someone like a DM can write and have him live in their home and uh they did this with several young people that they

saw promising Kellogg Etc and uh they tried to Mentor these young people and um of course Ellen and James were very clever also about Mixing Church stuff with their personal stuff so that they could take advantage of church resources personally and you know this is most evident in 1849 when Ellen claims to have these Visions telling all church members that time is so short that they need to sell their homes and give the money to the cause along with their possessions and um of course her and James become wealthy Because of this a bunch of

people follow the visions and they don't get their money back when Christ doesn't return but James and Allen then go on and buy their first home which is a nice big home but they claim it's the owned by the church because they have people living there and they have the publishing work in there but the interesting thing is when they move the publishing work in the people to a larger building they keep the home and The deed in their name so it becomes their personal wealth when it was the church money that bought it and

and this is just typical of the whites uh they exploit church members their whole life they manipulate they extort money from the church James is guilty of major extortion um to the tune of four to five hundred thousand dollars that he was caught red-handed with and that uh they had to repay after James died because the Church saw the evidence that Kellogg presented and he was threatening to go public with it so uh the church had to pay that money back to the sand and uh you know James and Allen were pretty shady characters and

they were pretty dishonest characters and they were pretty mean characters and they were very controlling characters but they were also very good con artists and you know they could play the Pharisee and play the holy holier than thou person at The same time that they were screwing people and exploring them and so you know by the time the church actually organizes between 1860 and 1863 now Ellen's off on her health kick and copying all the health reformers and claiming its Visions from God and um the church is starting to accumulate quite a bit of wealth

now and again James and Ellen are thinking Of every kind of way to make a bunch of money personally they sell trinkets they sell charts they sell hymnals they made the equivalent of a million dollars in our money today just selling hymnals alone so they were doing all kinds of stuff you know they had a bunch of dead books that were old that they owned personally that they couldn't get rid of so James came up with an idea let's have a missionary fund and we'll have the church members all buy these old books From us

and give them out to people in the mission field or whatever and um and then they took all the money personally you know can write went crazy about this because he was living with him and saw it all happened and well of course I'm writing this book about can write right now I don't know if you're aware of that but I heard I heard you mentioning on the on Peter's show and and that then I was was a very good talk and I'm happy to know that You've writing a new book and specifically it's specifically

about camera and uh surroundings yes it's specifically about Arthur white and Carrie Johnson and the fabricated book they made up about can write which was called I was can write secretary I know that one just don't even know the that Arthur white was heavily involved in the writing of that for more than 20 years it's all new stuff that's coming out that's just absolutely devastating to Arthur white devastating to Carrie Johnson and very vindicating to DM can write it shows he really was a very good in a righteous person who was just trying to do

his best to serve God and he got completely uh you know unfairly attacked and destroyed by Adventists and um so it's can you can you can you dive in a little bit more about the now moving forward a Little bit about the business of printing and why printing was such an important strategy for the the business of the the organization why so many newspapers why so many editions why printing printing printing how how is your perspective about this strategy yeah because it was the medium through which communication occurred you know they didn't have the internet

they didn't have phones they didn't have TV they didn't have any of the media or Um ways of communicating that we have today it was all about the print media and um so you know this was typical of Colts and any group that wanted to get their message out they would print a bunch of stuff and Adventists were uh you know from the very beginning like I said the very first house James and Ellen bot they put a printing press in well it was innate to their very existence and even before they bought that house

they were using Printing presses to get out all their little uh papers and books of course they had to get rid of and and censor and delete from but um adventism has always been super big in the publishing printing um from the very onset of the movement and um you know obviously then they did the same with education they did the same with the medical work they latched On to these kinds of things and and institutionalized them so um you know they would become highly effective in terms of getting their message out awesome awesome uh

one can we move forward a little bit on Taurus to 1888 and the conference of 1888 so we are now having uh Ellen White being established as the authority now in terms of Visions James is the businessman and now teams Are getting bigger and bigger we have confidence happening and then 1888 what was the problem with that specific conference yeah there's a whole bunch of things um James died of course in 1881 so he died seven years before the 88 conference and um it's very interesting that the early Ellen White was always influenced by James

and Bates and Everything she said and wrote and like I said her aspect of methodism was extremely legalistic and perfectionistic the chatting methodists were very unhealthy form of spirituality and um James and Bates came out of the Christian connection which were also extreme legalist and perfectionists so this is what they believe this is what they taught and this is what Ellen was Claiming she saw in Vision to support them and of course these Visions were completely out to launch they were the basis of gross Adventist perfectionism and having to overcome every sin and having to

live without an intercessor and just all the worst guilt producing ugly fear producing stuff you get in adventism all came out of Ellen's early visions that were influenced by James and Bates obviously They weren't from God you know she even had visions that God hated children and I mean she's so far from representing the true God that it's just absolutely ridiculous but um anyway once uh both Bates and James are dead then Ellen uh is not as Bound by them and now she's getting into reading all kinds of other authors and stuff so not only

does she read all the health Reformers but she starts building a library of all kinds of other authors but the main influence that came over her regarding 1888 was Jones and Wagner Wagner and Jones and what most Adventists don't know is that Wagner's father J.H Wagner taught the very same thing that Wagner and Jones taught in 1888 way back in 1851. if Adventists had accepted what he wrote about the law of God he wrote a book Called The Law of God and showed that Adventists were not under the old Covenant law they were not under

the moral law they were not under the Ten Commandment law uh he he really presented a true form of the Gospel way back then and he got lambasted by uh James and Bates and uh Uriah Smith and all these bigwigs in the Adventist Church who couldn't stand that so they uh I post his book with all Their might and Ellen of course had a vision showing they were right and Wagner was wrong so his book got wiped out and never got put back on it is available on the internet for free today for those who

want to read it but um anyway Wagner's father JH Wagner was the one that really had a true picture of the Gospel very early in Adventist history but he got completely wiped out and destroyed by these other leaders who used Ellen White's Vision to Say he was out to lunch so then Wagner and Jones who were writing for signs of the times and in the 1880s they start bringing up all the same stuff that Wagner's father taught way back in the 1850s and uh Wagner I mean not Wagner but Uriah Smith and G.I Butler who's

the GC president start going crazy saying hey Ellen White already condemned all this stuff way back in the 1850s and you guys are out to lunch and you know they wanted to Stifle them and censor them and silence them as much as they possibly could so they were using Ellen White's Visions to do this but Wagner and Jones's message was quite popular and Ellen White saw this and uh so she tried to tell both sides to shut up and quit attacking and fighting and you know arguing with each other in print and um you know

she conceded that you know Um Butler and Smith were right about what she'd claimed to see in Vision in 1850s but she told them hey you know let this go we just need to talk about the important things like the Sabbath and our pillar doctrines you don't want to be talking about the gospel or this kind of stuff and um so the bottom line was that uh you know Uriah and and Butler basically Ignored her once they had the concession that she had agreed to with them back in the 50s they started blasting uh Wagner

and Jones with everything they could in the Ravine Herald and wrote a book Butler did and Ellen got Furious about this because they completely ignored her counsel to uh stifle the arguments and then she took Wagner and Jones side and said uh they need to have a fair hearing at the 88 conference since you guys are ignoring my counsel about Fighting with them so that that again the opportunities love God in Romans and Galatians they were teaching the exact same thing the JH Wagner taught back in the 1850s and the funny thing was Ellen White

latched on to this was very popular with the masses at the camp meeting some stuff so Ellen White latches on to the justification by Faith and righteousness by faith part she ignores all that part and just latches on to what she wants to because it's popular with the masses and then way and then Uriah Smith and Butler go crazy because she's now siding against them and they lose their position and you know Smith is devastated and he gets replaced temporarily as reviewing Herald editor by A.T Jones and I mean it's just a a very fascinating

thing but the Bottom line is Ellen White never understood the Full Gospel she did she did try to get a partial gospel off Wagner and Jones and um then she started copying a lot of the other authors when she wrote Christchurch lessons and Desire of Ages she went to all these other non Adventist authors and copied from [Music] Jesus and the gospel and stuff and Desire of Ages are not True gospel you know they're a mixture of gospel which is the best Adventist I've ever done they've never had a true gospel and um Wagner and

Jones were really having a true gospel but then Ellen totally attacked them afterwards and accused them of all kinds of garbage oink she did with Kellogg so they all ended up leaving the church Ellen White couldn't stand anyone who was more popular than Her you know if she wasn't the head honcho and the center of all attention she would make sure that anyone that was competing with her got destroyed that's what she did to Kellogg Wagner Jones you know right down the line you can just follow can write whoever you want to look at that

questioned her got destroyed and um so that's really what happened in 1888 it was a mixture and ever since then Allen you know Adventist went into the Dark Ages after the 1919 Bible Conference when they tried to come clean about Ellen White but the conservatives won the day and then you moved into the complete Dark Ages in adventism from 1919 to 18 or 1949 and then the 50s you briefly have figure in this Administration that tries to become Evangelical but they get kicked out uh questions on Doctor and gets kicked out yeah and that's revert

back to their perfectionism and model man Theology and you know to this day even with Maury venden who I interned under he had a mixture uh Ford had a mixture Ford never um completely he kind of said Stuck in the Middle sitting on the fence yeah brinsmaid was the one who said we're not under law period brinsmead had the true Gospel and he was the one that really influenced me in the 1970s and I really embraced what he was saying in verdict and present truth magazines I liked Ford but he didn't go the full distance

brings me did and I really like that about him but of course he got kicked out or yeah left adventism of course but you know I think forward after he left adventism Still always kept to the Sabbath and kind of the old Covenant Adventist view right up till his death which was kind of interesting but yeah yeah and to be honest with you uh Dr C I see the same um Behavior in a lot of pastors uh down here down in Brazil who leave the organization for any reason sometimes for any there's no reason they

Just kick out some for personal reasons but I still see them saying hey uh I I half and a half I cannot let go of this and this and that but I need to embrace this this because I don't believe I think they live in some kind of a I don't know it's a kind of a different Universe metal Universe they cannot let go one hand and they cannot go completely the other side right absolutely mixture is a huge problem in Adventism and any religion under law any Christian Church under law has that problem but

when you get the freedom of the perfect finish work of Christ alone and flow of the true gospel then there's an amazing freedom and peace and joy and Abundant Life that you just can't really be known in adventism at least under the system of adventism which is quite oppressive to say the least yeah just uh closing up the this Period until 1915 and Ellen White's uh death uh can you touch base a little bit about the relationship between Ellen White and Kellogg and why that started technically speaking well and ended very badly yes uh Kell

Ellen became increasingly jealous of Kellogg and Kellogg became increasingly aware of Ellen's plagiarisms and problems and even though they were close personal friends much of their life Um once Alan got exposed publicly in the newspapers and 1889 before she went to Australia things really changed for her you know she was under large attack while she was out of the country for those 10 years she cuddled up with Daniels and they became best buds but um she was getting all kinds of rumors Daniels was providing a lot of them Because Daniels hated Kellogg and they really

wanted to take the health work away from Kellogg he was becoming ways to strong and powerful in adventism so Ellen and Daniel's basically partnered up and uh Ellen believed a lot of the lies and rumors that Daniel's you know gave her and then she had Visions about those rumors and lies such as Kellogg building buildings in Chicago and all kinds of things that were just absolutely proven To be false and she got them from Daniels while she was in Australia so Kellogg you know uh saw that she was just a complete fraud at this point

in Stuart and a lot of the other doctors who were Kellogg's colleagues also saw this and so they wrote books completely exposing Ellen's lies and their Visions about Kellogg and um you know by the time Ellen came back it Was her and Daniels against Kellogg and a lot of the more Progressive Adventists and even Daniels himself was pretty Progressive but he was all about using Ellen White and she was all about using him and she got him in as GC president when they came back and the two of them set the whole new church structure

in 1901 that's still being observed by evanus today and um you know their agenda became to get rid of Kellogg run him out so they Just fellowshipped him and uh Kellogg gives us a huge uh favor by his stenographic report when they disfellowshipped him of having everything preserved historically uh in terms of what had transpired because that report is just so powerful in terms of what it reveals about James fraud and extortion and uh Ellen's lies or false visions just so many things are revealed in that and exposed in that stenographic report That it's of

extreme value to Adventist historians but and that has the signatures of of the Adventist Church leaders who interviewed Kellogg to disfellowship him so they agreed to what he said in that document but um you know obviously it became a power struggle and Ellen always won because she had the Visions so she accused Kellogg of pantheism which wasn't true he completely denied that to the very end but it was just one of the things Ellen used to try to destroy Kellogg and um you know Kellogg was always much more gracious to Ellen than she was to

him she has all these visions of him being demonic and you know womanizing which the biggest joke in the world because there's no person who was less of a womanizer than John RV Kellogg he never even had sex with his own wife I mean it's just a complete joke she tries to Accuse him of one but you know they fly all these rumors against Kellogg and he finally goes and he pretty much lets go of adventism and he was a famous person with many books and best sellers in his own right so he didn't need

adventism and Ellen hated that you know she couldn't stand anyone who was popular and well accepted in their own right without needing her so she had to get rid of him and she did her best to do that and adventism hurt Itself badly by doing that of course but yeah awesome uh DRC we're reaching one hour I don't know how long uh can we go um but I have a couple other subjects I would like to hear from you and a couple classic questions that we always have in Brazil what is your I'm going to

mention a couple questions here if you can answer in a very short way but questions that really still up on on on around the Brazilian Community uh for example uh Ellen White's um uh death after an Anna White staff the the cemetery where she is she was laid down there's a obelisk or some kind of a symbol uh we had all sorts of conspiracy theories about that from both sides the very ultra-conservative as you mentioned as well from the people who really tried to attack her in different ways what is your perspective on that specific

uh in this specific subject yeah I know there's been a lot of debate About Masonic symbols and in the whites family and you know to me it doesn't really matter you know I I have studied uh Masonic religion quite a bit uh masonism and uh I know the vows of a 33 degree Mason that they take total vows Life Death vows to Lucifer and you know I know that at that level it becomes a pretty ugly religion yeah a lot of Masons aren't even aware of that of course And um you know to me it's

neither here nor there how heavily James and Ellen may have been influenced by Masons because all the other factors that prove that they were dishonest gross extortionists all this other stuff is provable so I don't need to bother with the masonry stuff being Mason is kind of a just a cherry on the top yeah I see I see uh other question uh what about Lucinda and the relationship between Lucinda James and Ellen White yeah there were two Lucinda's uh Lucinda Burdick was Ellen's close friend in the 1840s who rejected her and said she was a

pretender and liar about her visions and then there was Lucinda Hall who became her best friend later on in in her life and that's the one that has all the rumors about supposedly being a lesbian and Ellen writing to her that I'll only share my bed with you and all this kind of stuff Um again I don't I don't try to invest too much in that stuff hardly anything would surprise me about Ellen White given how much I've learned about her and how disappointing she's been to me and all the research that I've uncovered but

um you know there's no question she had a terrible message with a terrible marriage with James no question about That and it is interesting that Lucinda betrayed her by not destroying those letters the letters she has to learn and she didn't try them you know so from a historian's perspective I'm very thankful to Lucinda Hall that she did not destroy those letters because they're quite revealing you know she basically says James is insane and yeah yeah another another quick question uh it's about Um also uh prophecies and uh we had we have so many examples

the fail prophets there fail prophecies if you can rank with the top three uh what will be the top three prophecies failed by by Alan White well the shut door would have to be at the top of the list because she just repeatedly uh not only states that and directly attributes it to Visions from God but you know says it's blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to reject that and I mean the statement she makes about how invested she was in the shut door are just absolutely ridiculous and uh so that's clearly the most damaging um

I I think her 1849 Vision telling the people to sell their homes and their possessions has to rank up there because that was devastating to the people who believed it yeah you know and it was Also terribly exploitive that James and Ellen weren't sacrificing they were exploiting those who sacrificed and there was never any apology or attempt to repay the people who gave that money James just went on and became wealthy as a result of it so um you know I those are the first two that just jump out at me it's also funny in

1849 that she prophesied that it was a sin to go to an Earthly physician you know given where adventism is today In Southern California the only thing you ever hear about adventism is the health work you know it's Loma Linda Medical University uh Loma Linda Health Center the Los Angeles Angels advertisements it's on the TV I see all the time the only thing you ever hear about Adventists is their medical health work and yet it's completely the opposite of the health reform that Ellen White advocated you know it's a medical establishment all the way and

You know it's so funny you know I wish that Loma Linda would post that prophetic statement for melon white that it's a sin to go to an Earthly physician over a Loma Linda Medical Center yes it's just so ridiculous you know you're right you're right what a complete fanatical faith healer and charismatic she was even in 1849 and how administered just the complete opposite today so adventism today really has absolutely nothing to do with Ellen White except they claim her as their founder prophet which is a complete joke yep I mean you know that she's

completely just corrected on top of that and that Adventists really stand for jump yeah uh another quick question uh what about the the situation this is probably going to be a little bit longer the answer a little bit longer but as you probably know Alberto team is a Brazilian and he is represented from uh White state in Brazil and we I know and lots of people who are now uh presenting Seventh-Day Adventists as as it is know that Alberto Ching in Brazil presents a Adam Whiteley to completely uh different way that is actually the truth

and right it's hard for us to understand how a person will represent a white State who have full knowledge of all the books all the the history everything still insists in defending uh Her views in so many ways so I know because I learned about I read uh her uh he's actually his article about your book and the way he's presented you the way that he you know his opinion about that how is your perspective on Alberto teams uh on your book and second why white State uh it has such a hardcore defense on Ellen

White in a completely different way that is due from the original yeah because you know they're dependent On the same lies that eleanors depend on dependent on so the only way they can survive is to perpetuate the same lies that Ellen perpetuated so it's not surprising that all the leaders of the white estate have been liars and deceivers there's just no question about it and I tried to respond to Tim's review on the white Estate website and of course they wouldn't post my response so appendix 4 of this next book that I'm publishing Uh is

my response to Alberto Tim and I basically destroy him in terms of what he says in that book review and it'll be you know in published print form now forever because that book's going to be out there yep and it was their unwillingness to put my response on the website that's caused me to do this so you know I to me Albert Alberto Tim is either ridiculously ignorant about Adventist History which I know he isn't because he read my book thoroughly so he knows all that stuff but he's just deliberately deceptive and lying uh because

the stuff that I point out in my response to his review was all stuff he completely ignored in the book and stuff that he never mentioned in his review and it just shows that the guys completely deceitful yeah yeah uh what will be the suggestion and I Know this is maybe maybe it's hard to answer but what would be your suggestion for Brazilians whole or now or either SDA members or outside of the essay evangelicals from different sources different churches different places to really understand seven days even with the barrier of the language even with

the barrier of not having full access to the actually the whole uh you know whole framework of the the history Of the church what would be your suggestion we'll listen to programs like yours first of all you know get get out there and become aware of what's going on uh read and study as widely as you can for yourself and not just embrace the evidence brainwashing that's so typical of the subculture and um I'm not all that familiar with Brazilian culture I've never been there but I've been to many other parts of the World about

65 countries and you know I think it's the same basic idea for anyone who grows up Adventist is that they have to look and study for themselves because the church is never going to be open or honest about its history or its present so people have to search and seek for themselves in a spirit-led way in a christ-centered way and um you know I I believe God will lead the Amount of deception and lead them into his truth and you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free yes you're right amen amen

uh one one more question how do you see the future of the SD organization moving towards like oh after in 10 years 10 15 years how do you see now with not only uh Ted Wilson pushing towards the Spirit of prophets Ellen White I just watched his uh latest uh preaching at uh on Doug batchelor's Church in California and the Title of the the preaching was Hold the Line that was that was the message so if the president of the organization of that size of that I mentioned it's asking it his own members to hold

the line what do you think the message is actually what he's trying to communicate yeah like I say adventism is a big business today and Ted Wilson's really in collusion with all the Liberals and uh left Wingers in adventism which is His job is to hold on to all the conservatives and the Ellen White Believers and you know to make them think that she's still valid and that she's still uh is the great last day messenger of God's people whereas you know adventism in Southern California could care less about Ellen Weider much of this stuff

they're just big business they're you know about government Aid they're about surviving into the future And uh you know they know they need that conservative tithe money that comes in from all over the world from a Ted Wilson so you know they have this Bohemian agreement if you will that they won't try to get rid of Wilson and he won't try to get rid of them yeah they'll all just work together to try to make as much money and keep the corporation you know they have a huge problem with the younger generation because the younger

generation isn't Really buying into the stupidity or paying the tithe and all that kind of stuff so they got huge problems financially unlike the Mormons who are have a billion dollar endowment they're very wealthy but um adventism is going to increasingly compromise itself to the government increasingly depend on government Aid my own view of eschatology is very much Based on what the Book of Revelation says there'll be a one world government uh the Beast will bring all people Nation people languages under their domain under their power under their control and it will only be God's

Remnant who will be persecuted and who will be small groups underground Church similar to what we've seen in China over the last several decades I believe that time's coming in America where the Christian church will be persecuted Forced Underground it'll be considered hate speech to say Jesus is God it will be considered hate speech to uh say you believe in the Bible I believe that time's coming we're moving there rapidly you know it's it's pretty amazing to see what's happening I don't expect Adventists to ever be part of God's true Remnant you know there might

be some individual Adventists that leave and become part of God's true believers but the system itself will never do that they they will completely compromise themselves to the Beast and just like they did under Hitler they became one of they became the only church Hitler didn't shut down it became his favorite son church I believe Adventists will kiss up to the government to the extreme degrees to try just you know survive themselves and they'll do whatever they Need to do to try to survive because they don't stand for anything morally they're just an expedient bunch

of people that um you know have believed a bunch of lies and um you know Commander my people you just like all the churches that compromise themselves to the Beast come out of her my people God's people will be an underground invisible church it's made Up of small groups uh that's what our little church is small group Committed to being faithful to God to the end so yes yes and just a closing question uh what would be the message you have for people who are transitioning from the adventism to the Christian the Christian Community actually

to outside of the Adventist and facing you know all sorts of problems all sorts of mental challenges emotional challenges what do you already can say absolutely I Mean that that's a tough transition especially when you have all the fear and guilt connected with if you leave adventism your loss for eternity and all the lies that adventism has generated in that regard you know I so many who leave adventism lose hope and they don't hold on to strong faith in Christ and uh my encouragement is transition from adventism to Jesus yes hold fast to Jesus who

he is saturate Yourself with who Jesus is I've written a couple books on just Jesus alone and um you know people need to replace adventism with Jesus and and a true understanding of Jesus and his gospel not the mixture that Adventists try to sell to the perfect Finnish work of Christ what that truly is what that really means what it births in terms of the spirit in our lives so having a healthy spirituality healthy religious Faith that is in healthy community that's what I would really encourage people to do and don't worry about the size

or the fame of the group you know all the groups that are worried about their name are gonna either compromise to the Beast or be destroyed it's only the small people who are truly devoted to God in Christ that will make up his true Remnant in the earth not uh all this phony stuff that's going On yes yes thank you so much Dr Steve thank you for your time for willing to participate here on the program and I wish you well your family and everybody else and hope to see you soon in our opportunity thank

you Ricardo God bless you and your work you're doing a great work for him thank you [Music] thank you [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign