what does it mean that Donald Trump is siding with Putin's Russia at the UN against Europe and how should Europe react how should the new German government react to this new United States I have the chance to talk about all these issues with the former Trump security advisor and former un Ambassador John Balton John Balton thank you so much for being back on our program GL to be with you I would like to ask you about the UN of course um the United States is or was siding with Russia against Europe when you learned that
how did you feel about that well it's a it's a it's shameful really it it uh it threatens the NATO alliance it puts the United States on the wrong side of aggression in this War I think it shows just how difficult it will be for Ukraine to get a a a decent settlement of this conflict if we're going to have negotiation I'm I'm very worried about it uh uh I'm I'm also worried about uh the difficulty that that the West as a whole will have once Trump's gone and although it seems like a long time
he's only got 47 months left uh to how to put the west back together again and I think uh the us will have a lot of work to do to convince people that the that our word is good and that we are actually a nation of normal people again so I hope in the meantime Europeans don't get obsessed with just being European the the the threats that we face around the world are threats to the West as a whole coming primarily in the rest of the century from China and the China Russia axis which is
uh developing uh so this is uh not going to be an easy period for Europeans it's not going to be an easy period for a very substantial number of people in America I I don't think Trump's vote in the United Nations represents more than a fraction of of the voters in in this country I don't think people realize that by electing Donald Trump we'd be voting with Russia in the UN and I think these things have effects I I wish the the negative effects on Trump's popularity were moving more quickly but I think they are
happening many people are worried that there is like a new friendship between China Russia and the United States and they will kind of start kind of a deal saying okay we leave each other alone and everybody can do what everybody wants to do against the rest of the world what do you make of that well that that's a a concept that I know people have talked about that's beyond Trump's capability uh I think what he wants with China is to make the biggest trade deal in history he said that before in his first term uh
we'll we'll see what happens on that but uh it's it's obviously a dramatic change in American policy I think it's a disastrous mistake uh but nobody's yet found a way to explain to Trump why going back to being a normal American president benefits him it doesn't matter whether it benefits Europe doesn't really even matter if it benefits the United States what benefits Donald Trump people people need to understand in Europe you're not dealing with somebody who has a philosophy who has a strategy who does policy the way we all normally understand that he's concerned with
one thing and that is how does this make Donald Trump look do you think he understands how dangerous Vladimir Putin is no I don't he thinks he's friends with Putin uh and Trump has said many times he believes if he has good relations with the head of a foreign country then relations between the us and that country are good now I would never say personal relations are irrelevant even in international Affairs but they don't dictate the sum total of the relationship especially when you're dealing with somebody as cold-blooded as Vladimir Putin there's a major shift
of course in the Ukraine policy of the United States what does this mean for Ukraine and for Europe at this very moment well it's the the shift is supporting Russia's view that the the talking about Ukrainian membership in NATO was the cause of the war is is just so totally divorced from reality that it's hard it's hard to to know how to pull Trump back down to ground I don't think the minerals deal that they're going to sign tomorrow will be that significant uh I think it looks more like an agreement to agree uh with
a lot more to be negotiated I I have no doubt zelinsky's main pitch is not going to be on the mineral deal it will be on the security that he seeks uh what whatever whatever the terms of this settlement are going to be uh and it just it just underlines for historical purposes how tragic it was that in 2008 when George W bush proposed bringing Ukraine and Georgia into NATO on a very fast track Germany France and others rejected that had we Ju Just as we've now welcomed Finland and Sweden into NATO because they realized
the only real Security in Europe at least then was to be behind a NATO border I think the same would have been true for Ukraine we are just about getting a new government in Germany we just had election what do you expect or what do you hope Germany to do when it comes to Ukraine well I know one of Frederick mz's uh first statements was uh after learning of the election results that uh in a over a period of time he wants German Independence European independence from the United States with all due respect that's a
mistake U I understand that what Trump is doing is very harmful there there's no argument about that but the real question here is whether we care about the West as a whole or in Germany's case you care more about the EU the EU alone uh cut off from the United States uh is much more vulnerable to China and Russia than it is joined with the United States but doesn't Donald Trump Force Friedrich MZ and other European leader to exactly kind of that path well I think it it should be a further incentive to spend more
on defense but but let me just point one other thing out to you I say this respectfully four decades Americans like me uh firmly I hope firmly and clearly said to Germany and others spend more on defense uh I hope we said it politely we got zero response Along Comes Donald Trump and slaps Europe in the face and Europe wakes up and says well maybe we should spend more on defense don't do you see that's teaching the wrong lesson still you know wonder what what Germany and Europe should do now as Donald Trump is putting
so much pressure I mean do you think Europe should still rely on this United States well I think there are plenty of people in the United States many many in Congress an overwhelming majority in both parties and people inside Trump's Administration who won't be saying it publicly but who know that NATO has been a very successful Alliance and that it' be fool hearty to give it up Unfortunately they don't include Trump in their number but but to Simply say it this point because of what Trump is doing on Ukraine we're gonna we're going to conclude
the worst will happen and there's no way to fix it once you go down that road it's very hard to come back so I'm not offering uh uh a a completely clear path here because we're in Uncharted Territory but I do think the wrong path is to say you can't ever count on the United States again that's not where the overwhelming majority of our citizens are where's the opposition I think it's starting I think I think you can see signs of it I wish there were more I'm not I'm not I don't I I do
live in reality but I think it's starting in a variety of fronts and I think the vote in the un uh with Russia and North Korea even China abstained on that vote uh uh and and many many other things that are happening mean that even within the Republican party uh although much of it in Congress is intimidated more and more people are speaking out a lot more needs to happen but there are early signs that that it is happening you know Donald Trump quite well what do you think how long the this relationship between him
and Elon Musk will ask with respect to both of them as long as it's mutually beneficial musk is musk is uh often referred to as a heat shield for Trump he's doing a lot of things that appeal to Trump's base but if it gets inconvenient the musk can be sacrificed musk but the same token has enormous economic interest he manufa factures most of his Tesla vehicles in China as we all face the risk of a trade War he's very much at risk he has enormous contracts with the federal government with NASA uh and the Space
Program uh so I I think that they each have their objective so far they coincide they're not going to coincide forever uh and and that will be the point when it breaks up and it could come sooner rather than later I'm of course also um asking you as a journalist about the freedom of press in this country how do how do you see these latest developments well I think this is the the things that he's done in cutting AP off because they won't refer to the Gulf of America which is one of the silliest things
he's done since the inauguration uh are very harmful I I don't know that you can uh Prevail in litigation that say they're a violation of the First Amendment but but I think that uh this is one of several steps that is beginning to cause people to understand that that Trump is a problem across the board it's not each individual thing he does that's a problem it's the Trump himself is the problem U so it's uh he's going to cause considerable damage uh there's no doubt about it so the effort has to be to mitigate the
damage and then uh correct it as quickly as we can when he's gone we talk briefly about China how worried should Taiwan be well I think it's a very bad signal that uh that he sent to Beijing I think Beijing has been helping Russia from the beginning of their war against Ukraine I think there was a lot of talk about how they were concerned about Russia and wanted to be a mediator complete complete wrong completely wrong they they have benefited they've aided Russia this is part of the China Russia axis that's forming uh and if
I were in Taiwan I would be very worried I I told the story in my book that several times uh when I was in the White House Trump would take one of his famous Sharpie pens and point to the tip and say see that that's Taiwan and then he'd point to the resolute desk in the overlaps which is a huge a huge desk and say see that that's China that tells you in his mind the relative importance of Taiwan and China he doesn't understand uh the complexities he doesn't even understand the economics he said during
the last campaign the Taiwan stole the American semiconductor chip manufacturing industry and and took it to Taiwan they did not steal it they built it from scratch and and we weren't paying attention that doesn't mean that we're not concerned that that capability not fall into China's hands but the idea that somehow it's taiwan's fault and not ours it just shows he's detached from reality do you see any timeline here when China might take action against Taiwan it's it's been customary in recent administrations China has tested a new American president uh they they certainly did in
the George W Bush Administration forcing down one of our planes that was in international waters but listening into what was going on in China I don't I don't know that China needs to test Trump I think they're watching very carefully though and uh undoubtedly thinking through in a very systematic way uh how to take advantage of him Trump doesn't do that he'll wake up one morning and decide maybe he'll put 50% tariffs on China not 10% but the Chinese will be ready and and that will be very very important in in the next year so
what what that is what does it mean that Donald Trump replaced all the senior legal officers in the Army Navy and Air Force with basically total loyalists I think this has U at this point mostly to do with the idea of wokeness and uh trying to get that uh approach out of the military that's that's certainly what they've been talking about I I think it's uh the the problem is not as much with removing the lawyers as with removing the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff uh and some of the some of the others
uh because it presumes that they won't follow the Trump Administration policies now it's not a question whether you agree or disagree with them but civilian control of the military which we've worked hard to establish in the United States has a corollary which is that the politicians don't politicize the military and uh that that means that that the military doesn't dispute orders whether it disagrees with them or not uh and if a new Administration changes them 180 degrees they should comply with those orders uh with the same Fidelity they complied with the earlier Set uh if
they don't then it's legitimate to fire them but what's happened here is that they haven't gone through the test which I think I think our military would pass uh of complying with Trump Administration policies and that's a very dangerous precedent to set so I'm of course asking as a um as a German you know and kind of it always starts with the military you know it always starts with the generals how how how concerned do we have to be well I don't I don't think there's reason to be concerned I don't think Trump has a
broader philosophy in fact I don't think he has any philosophy at all uh other than the greater glorification of Donald Trump so this is a this assault on wokeness uh which uh is being carried out across the government uh is an important aspect of Trump's political base they they believe all these things very strongly so he is in a sense fulfilling a campaign promise that doesn't necessarily imply any other significant change inside the military I think people are legitimately worried about it but I don't think Trump has the imagination to go beyond that at least
not yet John Balton thank you very much well thanks for having me bye-bye
