How contagious? Conspiracies, lies & the coronavirus ‘infodemic’ | DW debate special

hello and welcome I'm Melinda crane in Berlin for Deutsche Welle it's also began in Paris for France 24 don't believe everything you see on television or read online especially in these times of confinement whether it's false covet cures or grand theories of who's to blame disinformation on corona is spreading variant ly so much so that the United Nations says we're fighting not one common enemy but two the virus itself and an info demek conspiracies lies and the corona virus info Demick how contagious are they that's our topic today in a joint edition of the debate

France 24 and Deutsche Welle with you and we're pleased to welcome from Paris he's a former Italian minister for European affairs from remember the Italian parliament today member of the European Parliament elected on the slate of French president many metals now Haiti become a party central Coetzee thank you for joining us thank you and it's a pleasure to welcome here in Berlin Francisca Brandtner she is a member of the German Bundestag and she is the Green Party spokeswoman for European policy in Jews in the southwest of France Gentry D sociologist at the French Institute spoke

the author of the revolution that wasn't how digital activism favors conservative thank you for joining us happy to be here Jenn with more time to scroll wearing employment we've certainly been exposed to all kinds of ideas since the endemic though how much have conspiracy theories give you traction so conspiracy theories and so-called fake news are something that seemed to fill the Airways of mainstream media of politicians cry crying foul weather in the US or France or elsewhere but the reality is that fake news has always been around propaganda has always been around and yes there

is an uptick in people going online for information because of quarantines worldwide but it's really important to keep fake news and perspective in terms of the actual percentage of news and information that people are both consumers of and shares of it's still a very small part of one's news started a small part of it but yet we're all exposed to it I'll show you an example right now there was a demonstration over the weekend in Stuttgart Germany against the long it down and on Twitter you'll you'll perhaps o see it they were there was this

one tweet with the hashtag I learned a new word that's bombs tailing in conspiracy theories and it's a man wearing a placard talking about five biggest dictators in the last 100 years uncle Merkel is on there the head of the CIA party topping the list Gentry D is Bill Gates the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation which has been at the forefront of trying to fight the pandemic would you say bull Gates has replaced George Soros as the bogeyman or conspiracy theorists well they're on different sides of the political coin right so on the one hand

yes Soros has been the bane of conservatives in terms of an easy so-called strong man in terms of funding not a lot of funding for conservative causes but yes Bill Gates people are targeting him of course because of the work the vaccination work that the Gates Foundation has been funding worldwide and yes there are ties clearly ties to the anti-vaccination movement but if we take a step back really what Bill Gates symbolizes for a lot of people conservatives in particular in the far-right is representing what they call the deep state right so if you follow

what conservatives in particular are doing online and even if you see some protests that are happening worldwide but especially in the United States the anti lockdown protests really what we were singing is a long really trajectory of conservative opposing what they call big government right and for some vaccines represent a concrete way in which governments actually require individuals to act right getting vaccines or in this case why why why this is so much more extreme is the public health measures that people like Bill Gates symbolize are forcing and you know improving public health by requiring

confinement we're seeing some of those lockdown protests here in Germany in fact in several different German cities over this past weekend now Francisco Brandtner polls show that the overwhelming majority of Germans in fact support the measures that have been taken by the German federal government on kovat but there is a vocal minority out there that questions both the government's narrative and its approach now I know you've been talking to some of your constituents who apparently sympathize with those protests can you tell us what they're telling you yeah I was in the beginning quite shocked when

I got emails from people or like friends close to me who were you know saying that they will intend to go to that demonstration and and I really wanted to find out why and my impression was that many of them didn't know who was really behind those demonstrations who was going to be in those demonstrations together with them like racist neo-nazis etc so there was not a lot of awareness about who is behind it who will be there who what other conspiracy theories that are you know spread in these frameworks but of course they are

very legitimate concerns by many citizens and we as greens are also voicing some of them many of those I spoke to because I'm coming from the southwest of Germany with a lot of borders with France Switzerland and many are suffering from the regulation that Germany put that you cannot see your family members unless your for example marriage you must be married but and you know usually we have a much broader definition our family in Germany now which is you know broader at least you have been for 20 years with somebody you're still not allowed to

see that person because you must be married so there people were in there 60 70 s to say where's this country going to why are we back here definition of family I don't understand us and I'm trying to tell them like it's right to protest but please watch out who you're protesting with and as you say there have been concerns that these normal citizens with normal concerns could wind up being instrumentalized for example by the far right or by anti-vaccine activists what do these two groups the anti-vaccine activists and the right-wing have in common and

do you think that these protests show that the right-wing which was marginalized in the beginning of the corona crisis may be about to make a big comeback yeah we're trying to look more into who is bringing these groups together how does it really work so we're still not completely you know we don't have all the knowledge we need but we're really searching into it what we know so far is that of course what combines these two groups is that they are skeptical of science that they don't trust scientific knowledge these are the same people who

also deny climate change so this more general approach to you know how do we how do we do evidence based politics which is not accepted by you know by far-right people they do ignore the denied a climate change etc so there are some approaches that they have together and we evidence that actors like Russia today to bring two groups together and help to mobilize for those causes in very different sectors of society and we're trying to look more deeply into that who is catalyzing and which groups are activated we are quite a sure that there

must be some help to get these groups together Sancho Godsey let me ask you on this in your native Italy the previous coalition government you had the five star movement where there are a lot of anti-vaxxers and you have the far right if the cope with nineteen pandemic lasts that be sort of the shape of things to come in Italy well I mean it is certainly well if I if I see missing one positive effects so far of the coronavirus crisis in Italy that it has made disappear the ante back sign I mean we don't

find them anymore I mean they were represented in Parliament by the five stop movement they kept they started to be very silent and did I would say that is a it is a pose defect now it is clear that the corona virus still has shown one fundamental feature not only upstream of extreme right but I will say of extreme populism because little you've gotten in a deadly cocktail of extreme right and five stars movement a stronger mistrust of expert of science of politics based on evidence and certainly this has been one of the feature also

for the mistress on the social networks and during the crisis I want to pick up on something Francisco Bruckner said these are homespun conspiracy theories sort of fueled and egged on by outside forces that she is looking into let's take a look Cornell University put together a list of top ten conspiracy theories here a few of them while blaming Bill Gates we talked about earlier the virus escaped from a Chinese lab the other direction the US military exported the virus to China a plot by the big pharmaceutical groups Big Pharma's they're known Kovach 19 doesn't

exist that's another one but topping the list in the Alliance for Sciences article is 5g for France 24 observers website catherine bennett looked into it one of the conspiracy theories about the corona virus that we've been seeing the most is a supposed connection with the building of 5g communications networks around the world take a look at this video flames engulfing a mobile phone mast in birmingham in the united kingdom this video was taken on April the 2nd authorities think the fire was set deliberately since then at least 20 other mosques across the country have been

burned or vandalized but it's not just the equipment telecoms engineers are being harassed while they're trying to do their job but do you know what you're doing now you're laying 5g you realize that 80 yeah say what you know that kills people but where did this theory come from it all began with this man Thomas Cowen an American doctor who's currently on probation for treating a patient with non approved drugs in a video posted on YouTube on March the 12th dr. Cowan claimed that Kovac 19 is caused by 5g networks that 5g radio waves poison

cells in the human body and that causes the virus to anybody want to make one guess as to where the first completely blanketed 5g city in the world was exactly scientists have dismissed Cowens claims as complete rubbish saying that 5g radio waves aren't strong enough to affect the body cells or immune system but the video was seen hundreds of thousands of times YouTube took it down but people are still sharing copies online and coming up with their own evidence like this map for instance that supposedly shows how the spread of the virus echoes the 5g

rollout in France except that France doesn't even five G yet the map shown in this tweet actually represents the rollout of fiber optic in the country people who believe this theory are actually making it harder to tackle the virus the director of the UK's National Health Service said that mobile phone masts are vital they are what are connecting the country's emergency services with the people who need the most Catherine Bennett with that central Godsey your thoughts on this 5g theory who's fueling it and and why well I mean from to me is totally rubbish I

mean it is I'm amazed to hear such absurd theories but yeah yeah you got a double problem however I mean the first problem is that as I said everybody can say anything today because nobody trusts the so-called expert and a circle of fish a scientific world and we have to work on that we have to establish a trust to all those who carry out research studies carryout serious work for the benefit of all the the second problem is a problem of the digital platform because in your video you show that this absurd theory was spread

out and then YouTube intervene I think that we have to do much more in we must be much more demanding with a digital platform because they must be our allies in fighting this kind of absurd theory and in fighting a war against misinformation which otherwise could really threaten our democratic issue in our societies and I think that this is something which has been put under a much stronger light during the coffee 19 crisis so let me ask Jen trainee about that very matter because in fact social media including Facebook Twitter they say that they are

trying to remove kovat 19 disinformation from their platforms an onion we'll move actually from Facebook that has in fact refused to remove quite a bit of other content how good a job are they doing of policing this content social media platforms in general do a terrible job of policing misinformation because their algorithms are actually designed to promote disinformation and fake news right so the top ten fake news around koban 19 that we just saw it was really easy in just a couple words a brief headline to see what that information is and it's also negative

information and that type of simplistic hyperbole dramatic sensational information is really what social media and its algorithms promote right so if we rely on yes a small group of content moderators or an algorithm that may draw a few keywords in and eliminate them yes that can happen but that's just tinkering with the margins it doesn't address the fundamental problem of these social media platforms which is that they're designed for very basic simplistic and in many cases false information so a quick follow-up in regard to ourselves to the mainstream media as I mentioned a Franziska Brandtner

in fact polls show that the vast majority of Germans are absolutely confident in the government approach we in the media report quite a bit about the protesters who are not satisfied do we in a way give the conspiracy theorists and purveyors of misinformation too much of a platform in many ways I think that the right now what we're seeing right if we're covering it the media or researchers are looking at what's happening with protesters right it's the anti quarantine protesters who are in the street it's right that's just a given and about your question of

how many people they represent I think it's a mistake this may vary country by country but it is a mistake to underestimate the entire conservative ecosystem that these protests represent right so if you look at far-right officials that have been elected worldwide over the past four years including the brexit vote right whether we're talking about Trump on us or bolson arrow in Brazil social media yes was a part of what was going on but the other key point is that if we just get rid of that that misinformation it's not going to get rid of

the ecosystems of grassroots conservatives who are meeting on a regular basis now they're doing it online but before coab in 19 we're meeting in community centers and all over a lot of Western European countries as well as particularly in the US but I think if we imagine that this is just a Koba 19 issue or it's just an information or science issue that we're really missing it and one more point it's more than just the money it's more than just Russian disinformation that what we've seen throughout history is that authoritarian authoritarianism brought on by fascism

or right-wing movements often happen not because a leader comes in and fills a vacuum but because there is a lot of strong civil society really supporting that and we can't overlook that support so I know that Francisco wanted to say something to the same question if you would Francisco be great if you could be brief because we do want to get on to one or two other topics but also just a very quick question on Facebook it has now announced a new supervisory board that supposedly is going to help it do a better of content

moderation what do you think is it gonna work no we need much more legal frameworks for Facebook and Co we also need to split Facebook from whatsapp from Twitter it's all one data monopoly that's not acceptable so with each much more legal state action to get that really huge problem for our democracy under control and to the question do you report too much you know I think there is a lot of there are a lot of worries out there about the current situation I don't know anybody who's not asking themself big life questions so it's

understandable and none of us has alder knowledge and we're still getting into more data so I think you know we should not underestimate how many people have doubts and I think we need to have reporting that shows who is really demonstrating and who is behind it so it's not enough to say there are 10,000 people in the street but your job is also to show who is behind it how many racists were there how many you know signs did you have that are forbidden in Germany and yes overall probably the biggest majority in Germany is

looking for some vaccine and is hoping that they can get one and only minority is afraid of it but still you know it's important to report on that phenomenon but Francisca Brandtner I'm halted by something generate he said earlier which is that these platforms that we all use are catered to simple stick messages that's what they're built for so what do you do no I you know we also will have to come up with the easy answers that are understandable to have a clear communication so I'm not against saying you know if something must be

complicated and only then is it true but what we have to avoid is that we have you know really say news that we have races that we have resort on us you know that's what we have to control and that's where Facebook is not going far enough and not doing its job and it's why we need more legal constraints on Facebook and Co and as I said we need to split it up that data monopoly it's not acceptable what do you think Sant ragazzi would you agree do we need to actually break up Facebook well

we certainly need a new approach at at least you level because it is clear that this is a situation of global or god oligopoly which was also a race the fundamental issues on data and on data protection and they I agree with Francisca Brandner we have also to promote authoritative sources on the social network which is not being done in a simple way but authorative sources and not so much rubbish as we have seen in the video before we have to demote content that is fact checked as false Ausmus or misleading and we have been

we have to be very effective in doing this and we have take down illegal content or content that could provoke a physical or a molar harm now all these today it is not being done enough and this is why I think that also in the light of coffee knighting crisis but read not only because of the covenant the crisis we have to promote at least a few level a new regulator approach and the new regulation especially for this social platform both on seeing the issue of data data storages and the active role in fact in

fighting against the fake news and misinformation so given the limitations of what social media can or are willing to do on their own let's talk a little bit about what we can and should expect from political leaders the French government put up a kovat 19 detox website that was aimed at exposing disinformation on the coronavirus but it quickly found itself compelled to take this website down so let me ask you this sundar Ghazi French the French journalist Association said that the website overstepped about the government's authority and violated the principle of freedom of opinion would

you agree with that I think it is they do ask criticism I think it was excessive and I think that in this historical moment in this political phase we have to find new means of fighting propaganda on the social network and the media also have a role the media certainly it is a constitutional freedom also of course protecting in France the freedom of expression but who say that we have also another right as citizens in France and elsewhere the right to be properly informed the right not to be a constant victim of propaganda so I

think that if the French media were so worried about the website of the French government well I mean I think that should also do something more to ensure a real freedom of information and to ensure a free our information is the pooling forces to fight to fight with information it unfortunately and not only in France let me say that it has happening a little bit the opposite it is not the good traditional media who are managing to influence in a positive way the way information is run or is denied in the social network in the

social media a photo it the opposite the other way around and for that the older traditional newspaper for example they are more and more looking for sensational news more and more looking for conspiracy theories as well in some somehow because the egg to run after the yeah what gives us an example of that well I mean there are some an example of campaign to take it takes also some some so campaign that even front leading newspaper are doing based on something that they'd heard they haven't verified but it they send copies like that I don't

want to mention newspaper but I think that in France in the since at for me since in 2017 I've seen so many example of this and also bigger or smaller campaign against many of us run by major friends newspaper without properly verifying the sources and I think that this is an effect of the social network way of running the information generated you agree so there are two ways to look at this question one is what is the role of the government and what is the role of the news media and what we've been talking about

is this tension between the government right the role of the state and the role of the individual right and so when we talk about fake news I think we haven't really defined what it actually is right because you also have a country like Russia where three doctors so far have fallen from hospital floors we have no idea what happened they spoke out about conditions with the coronavirus there's also a fake news law in Russia now in the name of promoting accurate information in Russia around koban 19 but the result is actually you know a way

to you know diminish free speech right it's just a ruse and Donald Trump talks about critiquing fake news so what are we today we're really critiquing the other really important piece is that we've been talking about is how is the mainstream media a part of this distribution of so-called fake news what is news and when is it critical thinking you heard Sondra Godsey say that publications from mainstream outlets are chasing after sensationalist news so some of it depends on what news outlet right but even very legitimate mainstream media is that journalists often have a two-sided

approach to an issue right so especially as science is so new around koban 19 and by the way we have this idea that science is this perfect truth which of course it's not and it's cheap because it's changing so quickly in fact the World Health Organization keeps changing what their what they've recommended as more information has come forward that journalists want to present both sides so if Donald Trump for example or a politician says yes this drug is important what I see even legitimate outlets in the u.s. like NPR or the New York Times will

say well Donald Trump and some people say that you know Clorox should use you know to prevent or treat Kovan 19 but when we talk to doctors they say something else right and so and that's an extreme example but I think that this idea of two sidedness doesn't really work with science and that's what we're talking about today let me come back to recommendations like the one that was made by President Trump that people might give some thought to ingesting either disinfectant or bleach Francisco Brenda you have expressed concern that the corona crisis could actually

wind up fostering and fueling populism what do we do when it is political leaders themselves like Trump but also say Brazil's bosun ro who are purveying disinformation yeah how many times have I thought how does crisis would have gone differently if we had instead of Trump Obama or Hillary Clinton they would first have called a g20 meeting we would have had some conservative action yeah it's scary to have some instead somebody like Trump was promoting fake news and conspiracy theories for me as a European it just shows that we have to take up a lot

of duties that otherwise the US would have undertaken in such a crisis so for me you know I can't do much about the US it's scary and I pity my friends who who are you know very worried about their own country and we can only strengthen the progressive forces and those who still go with the truth and with you know the scientific evidence that changes everyday but still you know it evolves and it and it exists and so I think we as Europeans have to take on more you have to be more concerted especially we

have to be united and in solidarity because if we don't get it done nobody else will help us and jennchris ready maybe also to you the question of top-down disinformation like that which has been pervaded by President Trump is it part of the difficulty that it's very difficult to contradict or deny false information like the bleach claim without immediately being falling into the trap of polarization essentially being stamped by Trump supporters as as yourself part of the conspiracy absolutely the role of ideology is crucial here it doesn't in many ways it doesn't matter what type

of information is put out when you look at factors like ideology so for those of us who study this question around fake news there are a variety of factors that make a difference education level is one but ideology is key I can see on social media conservatives analyzing the exact same article as progressives and coming up with extremely different an extraordinarily different reaction even beyond the question of bleach right even legitimate articles about certain you know drugs that are being tested right now very different viewpoints and in terms of your point about that how top-down

it is again we have to in order to combat this we have to start from the bottom up right so conservatives are effective because of a lot of or that's happening as well as of course money conservative media etc but on the ground right so what kind of media education is happening media literacy live literacy science literacy right now is really key and with so many people out of work right now I think it would behoove a lot of especially the more democratic countries to consider putting a lot of people to work in this type

of grassroots effort for science and for information that serves the public health yeah so do you have Donald Trump who's got his message where he is not only talking about bleach but blaming the Chinese calling it the wool hong virus and you have the Chinese well they don't have bleach but they have Lego let's take a look fury it's overwhelming our medical system the virus is killing doctors it's here born everyone stay at home much our numbers are now dropping we wore masks I don't know what to make of the tower pieces starting to lean

their son what do you make of that to do for instance that was put out last month about about the video you just shown you say I going to be very blunt with you I'm very concerned with the global a disinformation campaign run by China and not only China but China has played a key role in this and I was am was I'm still very concerned with the fact that that this propaganda has been supported by a good part part of the Italian government during the crisis we have seen the foreign minister Luigi de Mayo

the feistel movement and many leaders of the five step movement basically promoting the Chinese propaganda making things they tell you and that Germany France didn't ever had Italy underestimated the support by the you and over emphasizing the support received by China also by Russia but I will say that I would say that the Chinese propaganda was in Italy very much helped by the Italian government itself and I think that this is extremely disturbing for the European Union I think that the Chinese propaganda has been very strong as well in Europe and has been also strong

in the war death organization within the United Nations I don't see why the Security Council is not acting very quickly because the copied by the copy 19 for example it is a threat to international stability and there again you got China or Russia that are breaking down then throwing down so I think that we have a major issue which is certainly as it was said before not only linked to copy 19 but it has been magnified by Kobe 19 and I think that it is something that we have to watch out very closely at least

this is my intent at the European Parliament yeah you've got you've got the European Union sort of in the middle of this battle between the superpowers Francisco Brandtner we had the --use one voice beijing was chastised for going along with china daily the Communist Party newspaper in China sensibly a pretty innocuous open letter calling for more cooperation they removed the reference of reading this the fact that the pandemic originated in China your thoughts yeah I it's very worrying what Chinese influence is doing right now already into you and I don't think we have to be

extremely careful about it but let me also be very clear is that we as Europeans need to help each other much more strongly and you know yes Sun horn Italy I'm like sorry Germany did have an export stop off the medical devices you needed and Italy - Italy that was terrible it was so wrong and yes the Chinese did have a better PR campaign around it but still we didn't do our job and if now we don't invest in our it's ileane who will not safety telling companies yes the Chinese investors will come and buy

them up you know if we are not stupid to allow that it's our almost tape let's not charge the Chinese for it let's make sure we do the job we have to do so we're just about at the end of our show but gen trading if you would very briefly please will we see the info demmick peter out of its own accord as society start to move out of lockdown and back into some semblance of normal life so I think there is not going to be a big change in the problem with fake news and

disinformation until some of these broader political and social class issues are really addressed and that's something that we're doing at the observer toire socially crucial small @ CN SPO we're studying these so my advice is to pay attention to people on the ground and also pay attention to scientists and social scientists who are studying it so that policymakers can enact policies that actually make sense and are not at the bidding of Silicon Valley so even if we see the pandemic wane the info Demick may well stay with us thank you very much to all of

our guests for joining us for this special edition of the debate with Deutsche Welle and false Becket bye for now