How to drive growth with better strategy and being 'different' | Peep Laja

So there's one coffee brand for instance that is like i think it's called black rifle coffee company which is run by ex-military veterans they donate some money to veterans and they're super pro-trump so and that is a key to a successful brand is that you appeal to a specific segment for them on their values what they Believe in and you repel others in the same way so if you're anti-trump like me you're like i'm never buying this coffee even though the beans might be great right so but so you polarize people intentionally so you have

a sheer set of values so like patagonia makes vests and all kind of outdoor gear and they're you know their website says Trump right the reason i buy patagonia gear obviously it's great i buy it also because i believe in sustainability and you know i want to help global fight global warming and all these other reasons and i hate trump i buy patagonia because when i wear patagonia and now that says something about who i am right if you talk about factually like the fabrics they use Designs i'm sure like north face or whatever has

similar stuff right so it's not objectively better it's it's just i buy into the narrative about who i am and who they are and in b2b you can do similar things you know [Music] so today we're talking to pep laja how do you say your last name i am pepe the marketer and he's a Conversion expert um he's the founder of conversionexcel.com which has now been changed to cxl.com is that right yeah but i had met you all those times ago when it was conversionxl.com you have an agency you have a training arm which is

called the cxl institute you've just launched a new um company for copywriting and for copy testing that will come to a bit later And another company called adept and what's adept because i saw on your site that there's another company called depth which i haven't been seeing you really promote much well it doesn't exist really yet we're building it uh you're building it yeah yeah we're uh if everything goes well we're launching uh we're gonna launch it next spring basically a new take on what online Learning might look like okay cool and so we'll come

back to online learning as well a bit later too um and i remember that i met pep at um a conference the witch test one conference in austin texas and he had a booth there and he was doing some free conversion reviews so i figured i'll sit down and see what these guys in america have to talk about and within about 15 minutes i was like What's that on your screen you're like oh that's a course that i'm about to launch i'm like hey could i just buy it now and you're like but but like

it's not ready yet um but somehow i convinced you i purchased that course and that was um the first conversion xl conversion training is that right this is like five six seven years ago it was fantastic 2014 or Something yeah 2014 2014. um that was the first time i'd met you um and i remember how direct you were and how straight up and no no fluff no fluff that's how i roll not everybody can you know roll with the punches but some people appreciate it well i appreciated it and um you seem to have Um

a pretty strong knowledge around conversion optimization i mean that's kind of how i met you and that's kind of how you started in this whole thing isn't it because i mean yeah yeah yeah i mean i was determined to become the number one conversion person in the world uh by reputation and skill both um although i that's now in my past because i've uh because you've achieved It sorry yes and i got just tired of being uh i got tired of it and uh and also then by adding new companies and i had to move

from a role of uh let's say consultant expert into a ceo role a business person so i haven't been practicing cro you know actively for a couple years now i mean obviously on my own new startup stuff but uh Yeah so let's talk about the conversion excel blog right because yes when did you start that i started at the end of 2011 like october so about nine years ago and it was my personal blog at the time so my business was another company called architect that we merged with conversion excel later because it was too

confusing to have two Brands but yeah so it was me and i was doing data-driven blog post writing and how long did it take you to get to being the top conversion site in the world because you achieved that within a few years right i think so well i mean it depends on how we measure it but in terms of traffic we became uh Pretty big pretty fast i think we had like 100 000 monthly within a year within a year and how did you do that because we we had some posts that went massively

viral so it wasn't all seo traffic it was like we were number one on hacker news a few times which you know sends you a hundred thousand per hour and then tim ferriss tweeted some of our articles And that again you know took my blog down and so you know we got those unlucky but i also you know like worked my ass off writing those posts so so what was your approach to that you know because obviously there was already like a bunch of conversion content out there and somehow you came out well the year

was 2011. so the competition was Much lower than what it is today and not just in the crow space but how any business blog was being written back then the typical blog post was 300 to 500 words zero links you could and people were claiming all sorts of truths without packing it up with evidence and so my before i launched the blog basically i did this competitive analysis of like what all these blogs out there and What are they doing and how can i fit in and be stand out really because it's you know it's

about being an upstart and you wanna you know make your mark and then i chose the strategies like i only write long form posts and back then i i stumbled upon this study that if you your blog post is at least 2 000 words it gets more social media shares more backlinks and so on so i set myself a Standard 2 000 word minimum and then also like every claim i make is backed up by proof you know linking to a study or you know something like this and also i had set an internal standard

that every post i write needs to be the best post ever written about this specific topic so my very first post out of the gate was about pricing the experiments and that that you know when hacker News number one and so on tim ferriss tweeted it yeah so you found a formula and then you're like well i got something now and yeah you replicated that is that right we replicated it and i mean not every post goes viral but basically they they were good and they stood out because they were obviously clearly better than alternative

you know i don't remember exactly who Had a zero block back then not very many people you know i think invest had a blog and maybe wider funnel had something but i don't think they're even now taking vlogging seriously uh so you know see in terms of cro there wasn't much competition now obviously other blogs also wrote about conversion optimization but within you know three years basically any cro term you would google We would have a blog post ranking for it you know in the top three at least and so you had the agency before

starting the blog or let's start after the blog um because at the same time so i was i was famous in estonia and so i had my own estonian marketing blog that was generating leads and then i set up the agency to actually do stuff for them and then I had reached what i thought was like peak estonia like i can't get any bigger estonia is a very small country like 1.3 million people so so i started my english language blog to build my personal brand and also to prove myself that i can do it

in a global setting yeah and then over time and i started also getting leads from you know american companies then i funded those From my student agency but you know confusion today it's conversion excel but now it's architect what that agency was called and it was confusing and so we ended up merging them basically yeah sure and so that blog essentially helped you to break into the u.s market because it's pretty hard market to break into and to break into effective isn't it right yeah i mean i I think online you know there are no

country borders so english language is you know in the country and on the internet right yeah some telling differences with those z's and s's but otherwise you know well for sure yeah so we built the business on content marketing on on blog because i wasn't really i mean i was active on social too Uh but it's not like linkedin today i mean i was on twitter and stuff but yeah so yeah business and i think for the first three years i wrote like every single blog post and then we were at a spot where i

could also bring in like full-time content people how many blog posts per year were you writing probably published uh like 1.5 per week or something okay of 2 000 plus word articles Yeah something like this i mean i i can look it up but at least one a week minimum you know i think more like 1.5 a week [Music] okay and so when did you launch the conference was that first cxl live or conversion excel live back then was i think 2015. yeah i wanted to do it many years prior already and i had like

I had the venue and everything was like ready to go and then the hotel was like here signed this contract and you know this is like 500 000 and they don't care whether you sell out or not you need to like commit year up front to all these expenses and so for two years in a row i chickened out i was like i don't know if you can do it yeah in 2015 i was like i think we can do it And we did i think i came to that one it was either that one

or the one after it was a great conference it was like in it was in horseshoe bay i think it was a horseshoe base first one was the boy should be yeah yeah that was really cool conference and i was like i'm coming back to this conference that's for sure um but of course you've taken that but then You've stopped the agency life and now you've gone into startup land in business land right so i mean two things happened uh you know in your life you always have to ask yourself are you growing and are

you having fun and at around 2016 i felt that my growth my professional growth had slowed down like i've been doing this conversion stuff for a number of years now And i i needed to like either chase a rabbit hole you know go really nerdy into i don't know statistics or like take it take a new thing to to keep the professional development up but i kind of felt like i was also out of passion for it so uh i wasn't having fun and i was still consulting even though i was the head of the

agency but uh and i had been consultant since 2007 and so i i was getting tired of consulting i couldn't explain what p value is for the millionth time [Laughter] and or when to stop an a b test and so basically i was looking you're gonna have to do it one more time today my friend sorry [Laughter] and then at the time and anybody who joined our blog oh i'm Enjoying any subscribe to the email list we sent out an automatic survey on you know like in one of the trip emails asking what else can

we sell you if we were smart enough and then we crunched the data and we had like maybe 5 000 responses over the years and it was like eighty percent said ebooks and courses and i had already launched Some of my own uh you know side hustle courses but then i thought hey our agency is so expensive 99 of the email list subscribers can never afford us or they don't have the traffic to run a b tests how about we monetize those people by selling them content you know uh we can't do cro for them

so they can teach themselves and then basically the idea came to build six and institute And i decided i'm gonna run that unit and i'm gonna pull myself out of the agency combining me you know not growing and not having fun anymore with a new challenge that was exciting new growth and then there was a you know maybe um the first year was a transitionary period it wasn't like overnight and people at the agency were also worried like will the agency survive Me departing because i was the face you know but it turned out great

and we'll get to some of the other pieces of software um shortly um but let's talk about the thing which you you don't talk about anymore conversion conversion optimization because i know you've still got it in there it's still in there you can't hide from it that's what you know it's all the way in there deep all right Um what would you say let's start simple yeah um the most important things to understand to improve the performance of a website what are the most important things to understand well if you want to improve the performance

you get more sales and emails or whatever it is that you're trying to do the first thing is to understand what Are the problems you know what's holding people back why aren't they buying more stuff because you can only make stuff better if you know what the problem is that needs fixing you know so that's where you would start you know combining qualitative and quantitative quantitative digital analytics what you know tell you what is happening where how much you Know like where are the people leaking out of your website where in the funnel or any

you know this funnel is kind of an outdated model but uh you can still see where they're leaking out and then you do qualitative surveys interviews live chat all that stuff on top to understand like why yeah yes yes sure so your conferences i heard lots of different uh Conversion professionals talk about conversions everyone kind of had their own different slight approach to improve the performance and remember your one was all about conversion research to really understand the customer and you were the first person that that went into that level of the detail about conversion

research so could you just could you Just could you explain what it is and like why it's so important so conversion research in my experience is where you get 80 of the results because in order to improve your conversion rate as i said you need to know what the problems are and there are how do you know how do you know what the problems are if you don't research it right um so you so that that that is the key Like if you know what the problem is now i can do something about it and

that that's that's the whole thing but like most people will come to a website and they will look at the site and they will look at the competitors sites and they will have a look inside their own kind of a gut and they will make kind of these gut decisions and kind of assumptions right i mean that's based on their Experience to an extent you know like if the site is horrible you can see some you know like if the copy sucks and the design is bad and or maybe has technical problems the css is

not rendering properly that's easy low hanging fruit and you can do it without looking at any data you know if you've seen enough websites you've seen enough what works but once you start getting to the This is pretty good already if you get to the you know this is somewhat optimized or even very optimized websites and if you look at any market leader so you know we go to i don't know hubspot or salesforce website if you just look at look at it and say what should be done to improve it it's you know the

oils that you nail it are very small so that's why that's when data becomes Irreplaceable and how do you keep on getting winds and those uplifts year after year of the year you know at cxl agency you know we have clients that have been with us now for five years and still every single month we keep getting wins and it's all because we do this continuous research and the experimentation obviously because it's an interesting one because Yeah that's that's such a fantastic point because like it's especially for the junior marketers right they are kind of

fantastic at taking something that looks terrible and making it kind of okay right like that's easy to do because of all the courses that you learn right and attend right like a course a course is enough to show you the things Which will kind of take something that's completely horrible and make it just not you know like so it can perform but it is really really hard to take something that is working and improve it because you can't just change the picture or the button color or the button or whatever right it's so much more

psychological than that totally and also what's happening is today the default templates of all the sas Platforms whether it's your shopify or you know any landing page builder they're pretty good the default templates so even wordpress themes are pretty good out of the box so it's like just eyeballing it to see how to improve it this is getting harder you know and hence again we need to turn to data to discover What keeps people from buying and sometimes you could just go and look at it so here's a particular case where we had a customer

of e-commerce the card page so they add product to the character to the cart page the cart page has a massive abandonment rate i think like maybe only 10 percent proceeded to the checkout you know typically it's like more like 50 and we look at the page what the hell is Wrong with it it seems pretty standard and then we asked we put a survey uh or like a poll on that page asking hey what's holding you back from completing this purchase and like 90 of people said shipping costs and when you look at the

page like and you evaluate the layout and the copies you would never think about it and yes the shipping costs were expensive especially they were selling Like kitchen stuff like forks and knives and pans it's like fork two dollars shipping twelve dollars or something that goes out of proportion yeah yeah yeah and so once the business knew that that is the problem you know they basically it's not a conversion problem it's a business problem like they they i think they they change their Fulfillment provider to get better rates so how many times is a conversion

problem actually a business problem but you think it's a conversion problem right right right i mean frankly if your product sucks ass and you have terrible reviews about it everywhere there's very little you can do you know so i mean product is something not it's not anything that cro controls or if the Same thing is overpriced you know if it's overpriced compared to the competition like especially if it's if it's a kind of a commodity product so let's say web conferencing tools let's say there's another new webex zoom like tool coming out that does exactly

the same things oh it's crystal clear video and whatever and it's it's like 100 bucks a month per user like Considerably more expensive now do you see a row on it to improve the conversion rate like you can't because it doesn't have it has no differentiation which is a business problem and it's overpriced which is a business problem so of course the role of the cro in this situation is to say that hey this is the problem and you can bring the data you can survey the audience you can you know Provide qualitative data 95

percent of people we talk to this say they don't buy because of the price and they don't get how you're different or better you know yeah sure sometimes yeah so outside of the um the business problems then what are the things that conversion research should find you know so what are some of the things which you're looking for You know like assuming that that the product is good that the reviews are good that everything seems to be good in terms of the product and it's the best thing now so how does what are the things

which person should be looking for in the conversion research process well the key thing is that you're trying to identify problems friction friction so you don't Want to hear about praise because like hearing fearing you know why somebody likes the product doesn't help you sell more product so typically i want to understand things like uh you know if somebody bought something you know you want to talk to them about like tell me what about finding the right product to buy was difficult for you assuming that it's let's say it's E-commerce and there's like hundreds of

products yeah because sometimes like product discovery is is is a difficult process then you want to understand you know was there something or what was something that almost stopped you from buying again friction what questions and what questions you had about the products or services or anything That you couldn't find answers to on the website and sometimes the answers are there they're just you know hidden or on the faq page that nobody ever visits or you know things like that so you want to understand what the issues are uh and then also want to talk

to people who actually don't complete the purchase you know people who abandon cards or browse the Website and then you know bugger off uh again like what's holding you back from completing a purchase well you know what's holding you back from uh adding this product to the cart friction identify friction and qualitative is much more important than um quantitative data like analytics data will tell you where how much but not why um but there is another thing about i'm talking about friction But there are basically two levers behavior classic behavioral design is that in order

to get people to do something you need to increase motivation and decrease friction and motivation is a far more powerful tool minimizing friction like if they want it bad enough friction becomes irrelevant like if i'm selling you a new tesla model s Brand new for 10 000 like i can ask i can have a form field form with like 100 form fields you're going to still buy it that's a great deal right right so so you do want to understand those so not only the friction how to make it a more seamless process to buy

but what problem are they solving for themselves so understand the user the context and of course if you're selling pants you know it's Like what is the problem you're solving it's it's not that but if it's like a b2b says it's more rational there's a problem you know um or if you're selling pants i mean it's more uh more fun than hedonistic stuff but so understanding the user and what makes them uh wanted more you know also maybe jlo Was wearing these pants and this is you know i don't know yeah kim kardashian's favorite jeans

so understanding motivation then that turns into usually you could you increase motivation through better copy yes there's social proof that's needed and maybe it's a celebrity endorsement but the salary the endorsement is usually a game For really big guys right social proof anybody can do unless you may be starting out and getting started most but copywriting anybody can write great copy you know so that for increasing motivation thanks prep um so it's cool so we there's two so just to summarize the two things that we're looking for in conversion in conversion research is to Reduce

friction and to increase the motivation right they're the two things right but how do you approach actually acquiring this information so where do you get this qualitative data about friction motivation yes the easiest thing to start is with your actual customers so you need to talk to them so either through A survey which uh scales really easily because it's automated so typically you wanna send out the survey uh after they buy something so when they still freshly remember their purchasing experience when you survey somebody i mean a year after they bought something they've already forgotten

the details but so you want to ask either on the thank you page like hey uh we'll give you whatever 20 gift card If you fill out the survey some incentive is uh always helpful or you you do it over email you say thank you you know we got your order uh and then a separate email is like you ask them of course you you the the response rate is to be low you know you get you know two to four percent five percent if you're good uh the incentive matters a lot you know So

if you can offer either coupons uh or free product like whatever you can you know is uh economic calculation here yeah and then so on the survey you want to ask open-ended questions not multiple choice because if you're asking multiple choice you assume you already know what the problems are like which of the following were the problems you know like then you're not opening Yourself up to problem discovery i usually ask around seven eight questions which is a great happy medium between you know uh if it's more than ten response rate goes down suffers if

it's only two or three questions you just don't get enough valuable data yeah so seven seven ish is like a happy medium That i found um and so survey survey questions you know you were like you know what thousand hesitations you had before making a purchase what questions uh you had about the products that you couldn't find answers to or what was holding what almost stopped you from making the purchase what about finding the right product was Difficult um things like that also like what problem were you solving for yourself [Music] if demographic information is

important for some reason you can ask that but typically i skip it on unless it matters how men or women answer separately now user interviews calling people up is much better than the survey but of course it doesn't scale as well because It's uh you know takes human time but i would definitely recommend doing at least some surveys and then even make it a compulsory for a team that every every week you need to talk to at least you know two customers three customers uh so they would you know have a finger on their pulse

and then uh so so that's customer part and then the people who Actually don't go through with the purchase the easiest thing you can do is put one of those polls on key pages so let's say google analytics tells you that not enough people add products to cart on the product page assuming it's e-commerce or maybe on the sas pricing page people go to the pricing page and then they leave so you want to understand that the Problem page then you put a poll on the website and i like to do it was the the

automatic paul asks first a yes yes and no question because it's easy to answer kind of like is there anything from stopping you from making this purchase right now or completing the purchase or is there do you is there any confusion around pricing or you know like you need To think about the wording and then when they say yes there is a problem now you ask uh like open-ended type in what the problem is uh again you get very low response rate you know so you need you know traffic and time to get enough sample

size so for qualitative surveys you know 100 minimum 250 is optimal uh i mean obviously five responses are already better than Zero um i was about to ask the minimum number which you would be looking to actually get some insight from yeah i mean you could the five people might already tell you what the problem is and they're right uh the the problem that you have with low sample size responses is that you don't know the severity of the problem or how often it occurs because let's say only five people Respond to a survey three

of them highlight a problem now you can't claim oh 75 percent have this problem because if you would survey you know 250 maybe it's only five people had this issue so they might be outliers you just don't know uh but as with you know user testing yeah five to 15 um you know is enough and if you look at how governments do Various types of qualitative research um around the world often even eight people doing an intensive study is like informs government policy you know so so you don't need a lot to understand the problem

so okay um so it's easier for larger companies that have lots of customers what happens if you are um like a startup more or you don't have these customers which you Can rely on or your conversion like the conversion numbers are too low because it's the b2b style sale which is six months and so like you don't get like a lot of conversion but how do you approach this process like in that respect like if the volume is not that high well if the volume is not high you need to just try harder to reach

the few Customers that you have so if if you only get like two purchases a week you can easily call each one 100 of the customers you can just call them up you know and even be persistent about it and follow up and uh you know like in a nice restaurant that when the chef or the owner comes out and greets all the guests it's kind of nice you could also say like if you're just Starting out i assume you're the ceo yeah um you know it might be actually a nice touch and you can

bake it into your uh concierge vip service you know like i'm personally calling you to check up you know on you yeah sure sure okay that's cool um so and this is probably the um the final question around conversions because we have To jump to sales of marketing because i have a lot of stuff around there which i want to ask you what are some of the mistakes that you see people making you know you know like people who think they know about conversion optimization but really they don't because of these because they're making some

fundamental mistakes you know what are those the fundamentals that people sometimes get wrong Well a common one is not knowing anything about statistics so like you know you you have your uh you know thousand visitors a month who make you know 30 purchases and then you you launch an a b test with you know seven variants and then you you stop it after variant c gets three purchases you know and you think oh yes i'm so data driven over here You're an idiot so so yeah sample size is a minimum volume needed to run any

kind of experiment also even if it's email open rates or stuff like that so understanding that so as i see so many even like startup uh marketing consultants are like posting on twitter image i love when i get you know Seven thousand percent uplift you know you and me we both know we don't even need to know the samples as we know is because this was like seven versus one conversions or whatever you know yeah exactly so statistics read up on it take a course on it uh read a book on it i mean there's

now there's so much content about it out there if you just wanted to google it you know what's the sample size you need or how many Conversions do you need to before you end the test so that that's a big one uh two is i would say if you just uh assume that uh you copy famous websites and you copy what they're doing and it will work as well you know like um you you oh amazon is converting pretty well they have you know a trillion dollars in revenue but if you put amazon you know

add to cart but on your website You don't get amazon's type revenue you know their secret of success is somewhere else other than their ui you know so copying copy market leaders or or even your competitor bigger competitors is is a dead end so first of all you just you don't copy their success by copying their user interface but also at the same time if you copy Copy them and you look exactly like them there's no reason to choose you because you want to be different from the competition not you know the same the sameness

is something that actually uh kills you people will always go with with a brand they know and if you're upstart you need to be very different uh to give somebody a reason to choose You okay yeah right um is there anything else that people should be wary about you know just because they've heard about conversion excel they've done but like you know they've seen some of the articles and they know okay this is this is the software i use and i know if i have enough traffic i just do these two things is there any

like you know what i mean Like it sounds fun when you get the tools for the first time or the second time or the 30th time yeah i mean tools are not magic you know like using a fancy expensive tools is not giving you uh better results you know you paying you know hundred thousand dollars for optimized it does not give you better a b testing results like compared to optimize which is free you Know yeah okay tool is not magic tool is a tool your brain is where the results happen you know you need

to know the tool uh so forget about that and then also i guess some people are looking for that magic formula like maybe there's this magic layout the magic uh structure to my page that converts the best And while there are some best practices there aren't there's no magic you know and best practices is basically your first hypothesis that you put out there um and you should optimize from there it's not like best by practice is is the the end you know it's where you start yeah cool and i'm not going to ask you about

the peer value like anyone um that's Interesting i can look online appreciate it cool let's jump to sales and marketing now um because you've moved from a conversion expert conversion consultant conversion speaker conversion trainer to entrepreneur to founder to marketer salesperson to every part of that role um right yeah how is how is that transition you know to going from you know just knowing about this One part you know across all the marketing right but this really important part that is fantastic for high traffic websites that's worth a lot of money to now starting a

business with this information in hand but how is that transition well it's both easy and hard uh it's fun because you're always new learning new challenges new things to learn about so that's all great but also Identity problems like who am i now uh how do i position myself or even in social media like what do i not talk about ah because you don't want to be all over the place and um and also like what skills do i start developing now like because if you're focused it's easy you know if you're like broad is

like i don't Know like should i learn about managing a team or uh finance or you know like anything you know it could be it could be anything so that was that uh identity crisis was uh it was affecting me also like people were inviting me to conferences and uh i was like i don't want to talk about conversion stuff anymore um but like and they say okay sure so what would you talk about like i Don't know actually good question a good question have you found that answer yet or not have you found an

answer much i'm much more comfortable in uh because i've been now out of the i took off the cro hat literally yeah four years ago now 2016. yeah and so obviously i'm much much more clear about my identity and who i am and what am i Doing and also in terms of my learning there are certain areas that i'm now just enjoying geeking out about much more than others you know like uh and these are strategy differentiation and brand uh and it's they're all super interlinked uh and so i truly enjoy geeking out about this

stuff and you know reading and uh and also writing about this stuff And this year after multiple years of hiatus i'm back at the conference scene virtual this year obviously but i'm speaking about differentiation now okay well that's good because that was one of the things i've got on my list to talk to you about um before we get to that one um you've been pretty consistent posting on linkedin yes i've noticed every single day for How long now how long have you been doing it for now well i think i decided to become consistent

uh last fall maybe a year ago okay and so i have it in my calendar every single day to post on linkedin and twitter usually the same stuff just different formats formats because brand building and audience building are just massively Important and personal brand of a founder uplifts the boats you know all of the companies that you're associated with you know case in point look at base camp and now hey founders uh how they're super active on twitter and cultivated massive following writing books uh super opinionated uh you know it works or you know why

why would anybody use moz uh over age refs or You know other tools out there like oh we still remember rent the great rentfish yeah right right or um i mean even i buy a tesla because i'm a fan of elon musk where he says like who is the ceo of mazda or chevrolet no clue i have no idea what their brand stands for like when i buy a nissan what does it say about me Actually i don't know because that's what a brand is it's like if i buy you who am i when i

buy you you know because like yeah like running shoes nike ideas new balance whatever there are no functional differences also no design differences because each brand has similar designs you know so it's all about the brand brand becomes The separation and then the founder might be the why you buy a product because you like the founder or you you know about them and also often uh it's on social media it's easier to build a personal social media brand rather than a company profile especially if it's b2b you know that it's you know maybe if it's

you're a fitness celebrity it's you Know it's two in one but uh sure yeah so what have you noticed in publishing every day for a year well certainly my audience is growing my personal audience is growing uh and there are now people who are following me that are not even unfamiliar with my conversion background because like for the longest time people still put me in that pocket because you know people want to compartmentalize it well i've known You from that's them including me you know you know absolutely man that's yeah change is hard yeah and

so copy testing for instance this new sas company launched in may the whole marketing for it was through my in the launch phases through my personal um social media so we got to our first 1000 users through my personal linkedin And twitter no other channel was ever used you know what was the ratio between linkedin and twitter like if you were to think of the sort like or if you were to attract the sauce rough i don't know i did it i didn't do utm or anything uh what does your gut say like basically says

that uh probably linkedin is is better like the visibility of a Linkedin post the reach is bigger twitter i think a tweet the lifetime of a tweet is shorter you know it's like we're talking hours unless it goes in a viral and most don't so i get uh i mean i'm not really tracking impressions on twitter although you could see impressions as well but like if i look at the number of likes engagements Yeah linkedin versus twitter uh i get more on on linkedin and my linkedin the number of followers i have a linkedin is

actually much lower compared to my twitter and twitter i have just under forty thousand thirty eight something thousand linkedin i'm actually not sure how many have i think you just got over 20 000. i think that's something like that or Something yeah so so so considering the number of followers versus likes i think linkedin gives you a better reach and also linkedin has services of stats like how many people have uh seen it obviously it doesn't mean that they actually saw it but which i think lincoln is as well which positions as well it shows

you the kind of people that are looking at it too yeah i heard that's Why you're just asking that because i've been seeing a lot more attention being put onto linkedin and i've been seeing a lot more not not too many people but a very few more people sharing thoughts sharing ideas sharing conversations starters how do you get your ideas to write every single day something every single day well since i know i need to post Every single day i'm looking for i'm actively on the lookout somebody asked me a question at work like one

of my colleagues and i you know give them a rant that's like oh that's actually a good topic or uh yeah rants are always good topics but someone says something like i didn't even know i cared that much let me write this down now exactly exactly that's a good that's a good indication uh Or you know you tell somebody a story uh about your past you know in 2017 went to this conference and this guy said this and then we got into a fight and it's like oh that's a good start actually so that's one

two is well some people are natural original thinkers just to just get a bunch of ideas and maybe have to have the luxury of having time to think uh because if you're always working you know like It doesn't just come to you so my wife is an original thinker she always has amazing ideas i'm like can i tweet that i'm not that so i'm my brain the way it works is like i'm gonna i need to synthesize different ideas so i need to feed my brain and the way i do it is i'm always reading

paper books or a little more more these days Always listening to audiobooks podcasts i want to driving these days we covered much less than uh i used to uh i uh i'm an avid lifter you know lifting weights but when lifting put on a podcast podcast it's always feeding my brain and then you put two and two together oh that guy said something in that blog post which happened to me last week at work And then i read about it in this blog post and it's like that you know sparks and insight yes and then

you know i i sent myself slack messages like my personal id and myself yeah so i wouldn't forget yeah so i have like a library of thoughts and every time i need to post i have a certain time i usually post when it's like 7 a.m u.s central time which is my experimentation shows that That's the the best time to post you get the most reach um uh so then i i go through my you know my library of thoughts yeah and also when i'm reading a book or listening to all of anything and then

somebody says something that immediately is like whoa that's brilliant when i notice myself reacting to an idea that's a telltale sign that other people will Also have a eureka moment not everybody but people because it's contextual right but then i'll write it down i write down and then i build a rent on top of that or anything like that so some days i am also like okay i need to post my library is empty i have nothing then i usually think about um [Music] top 20 or 30 lessons learned doing my my work so if

i had to teach somebody Else what i'm doing like what a i pick a topic like recruitment okay interviewing people what are some of the key things that i have learned about interviewing people i was like yeah if i were to teach a junior colleague i would have a lot of wisdom to share and so i make that into uh more like for a more linkedin thing have you found that The fact that you're having to write every day has that had an impact on the success of your businesses i think so uh because it's

writing stuff down uh forces you to clarify your thought because you you have all these ideas in your brain but once you need to write them down and make coherent sentences you're like you realize that the ideas in your brain Are not organized yeah at least my brain so it really forces me to think through the concepts and um and then that also i'm taking it to my business you know when i'm learning about differentiation strategy brand and writing about it i mean i'm also a student uh in fact most of the stuff that i

say is note to self like how i'm speaking to myself yeah Sure and so it's always relevant to what i'm going through right now uh and so i clarified my thinking to solve my own problems better yeah sure and i think you know it is good to write it down that's number one it is different when you're writing it down for 20 000 people to look at and to potentially pull holes in and to really be at a point where You're prepared to stand by this right like because there's the other part is like i'm

gonna put something out that's gonna be maybe controversial because you know that's good for personal brand but it doesn't have to be but i have to be good at answering it because this has to be right doesn't it well i mean i'm not too attached to uh me being right because also when you use social Media to write an idea you have character limits so you can't there are always exceptions and you know whatever people will say oh well what about you know so it's okay i mean i'm not you know you can endlessly defend

your positions or you can say well yeah in that case sure that's different yeah sure but okay people do Love strong opinions if you say sometimes it happens that you know like you soften it yeah and it's not as impactful people like strong opinions and uh strong opinion posts just do much better and even if you get haters and uh i really do meaning like people disagree with me but not in the troll trouble Like agreement that actually helps the engagement like it's controversy so you can have a back and forth arguments the more comments

you have the more linkedin or twitter like we will increase the reach well i've been following your stuff now obviously because i engage with it i keep saying it it's good stuff so if someone is listening i would can highly recommend um That you follow pep on linkedin because there's some good stuff in there that gets me thinking um a lot of it's around the things that we're speaking about um but the one i wanted to think about next is um i think the most imp well it's a top one at the moment is how

to differentiate yourself in the sea of sameness this is what you're doing right totally you know that's the main thing the idea Is is that you know the competition is harder and bigger and stronger than ever before because the barrier of entry to start a new business is lower than ever before with the no code and so on you can ship sas start uh you know without writing any code even in the new stuff so all these tools out there that make it cheap to get started I mean starting an agency you need just a

laptop or like anybody can be an agency right now so and that's why there is so much competition if you look at the marketing technology landscape chief market maintains that the index of all these martech tools is like where we've gone in a couple of years we've gone from like a thousand to nine thousand you know like we have like literally like a hundred email marketing Software so considering this you would think that companies are all about them standing out but actually no sameness is the default most companies when they write about themselves who we

are what we do they run it from a position that we are the only ones in the universe you know like simple email marketing software Send great looking newsletters that's like everybody or like we generate leads we're a growth agency well so does everybody else you know so so that immediately if you as a buyer you're looking for for one and they all say the same things which one are you gonna go with the one that you have heard about so much more important than Uh than differentiation is market penetration awareness around you if you

were the market leader you don't need to think about differentiation that much like if you're mailchimp you're the king of email marketing so mailchimp doesn't need to be different others need to be different from mailchimp mailchimp is the default you know so so now if you're starting a new email Marketing software and you have mailchimp an active campaign and all these tools right if you are not clearly different you don't stand out they don't even notice you nobody even mentions you how can you get noticed you know if i go to the g2 email marketing

category and you're one of the 200 tools there why would i ever even click through to your cycle like how would i ever find Out about you because if you're a new company or even if you're someone old like you can't rank number one on google you know because it's so hard like even if you're number nine and google or page two i will never find out about you yeah and running ads is just so expensive you need a lot of money to buy awareness i mean it can work but it's very expensive It's much

easier to to do what you know seth godin wrote about like more than 10 years ago to be a purple cow meaning that if they see you they can't help themselves but say something like whoa hey that's weird email marketing for people who are into oranges and heavy metal wow you know that's a niche that's nice isn't it and then Obviously if you're getting started if you're a startup you want to go for a very small niche like the smaller the smallest market that can sustain your business you can expand out of that later like

and that has been done so many times like think about all these big companies they started from either a single use case or or even in personal brands you know tim ferriss 2007 was that uh life hack guy right uh how to work less and you know build all the businesses that run themselves now who is now he's a mainstream guy like now he's everything right he's uh he's a books on cooking and health and then he's talking about whatever you know so but you start from a niche what we did with cxl you know

we were only Conversion now we're more thanks so i think you know that so differentiation is key to get noticed when you're not the market leader and there are you know obviously do you differentiate yourself yeah how well and let's do it in terms of say for example some of the b2b stuff right um let's start with that because that's probably where you have quite a lot of Experience now right okay so so uh features is not is a dead end you cannot compete on features because every feature that you have that is popular and

actually useful will be copied i mean you have might have some time where you have this feature and uh others don't but if it's popular they will copy it you know like intercom versus drift Anything that drift hat and their income didn't now they have it and vice versa feature wise is basically it's identical they just copy each other because what happens is that everybody's doing competitor benchmarking yeah uh and it you know you can't win that game unless you're for some real so for some reason you're a better innovator you're better developers you're more

Money you know you have some sort of a moat if you have like right now tesla is the innovator for the electric engine uh there are better batteries and all that stuff but every single car companies you know close it in right i think five years from now it's no different i mean everybody has the same technology you know so they only have a few years Of advantage maybe they can keep the innovator game up maybe it's very hard right to do it over a sustained period of time so forget features if you're a software

company even as an agency like oh we do this we're that service i mean if people want to buy it every other agency will also start offering it right especially because it's so easy then Isn't it because all they have to do is just say it they just say the same then sell it then figure it out you know they don't even have to build the feature yeah exactly and so so like really like in the end how can you differentiate you know and the big one then the most obvious one is brand so you

could have a brand uh which is a Reason to buy you that is a soft reason stay motion reasons value space so a good example i have is coffee beans which is a commodity product right and you can't compete with features because like there are features like you know it's picked last month and roasted yesterday you know and we ship it to you fresh and uh all the stuff but anybody can do it And now in the u.s everybody's doing it like there's heavy competition so there's one coffee brand for instance that is like i

think it's called black rifle coffee company which is run by ex-military veterans they donate some money to veterans and they're super pro trump so and that is a key to a successful brand is that you appeal to a specific segment For them on their values what they believe in and you repel others in the same way so if you're anti-trump like me you're like i'm never buying this coffee even though the beans might be great right so so you polarize people intentionally so you have a shared set of values so like patagonia makes vests and

all kind of outdoor gear and they're you know their website says Trump right the reason i buy patagonia here obviously it's great i buy it also because i believe in sustainability and you know i want to help global fight global warming and all these other reasons then i hate trump i buy patagonia because when i wear patagonia now that says something about who i am right if you talk about factually like the fabrics they use Designs i'm sure like north face or whatever has similar stuff right so it's not objectively better it's it's just i

buy into the narrative about who i am and who they are and in b2b you can do similar things you know like base camp as a crm software objectively well they have less features than asana or you know some of the other ones Um but they have a set of beliefs you know like less clutter and uh the founders are against you know like apple dominating uh the ecosystem and you know like you buy into some sort of a narrative yeah and i'm i'm for the you know the upstart and the underdog and uh yeah

there might be some emotional reasons to make you choose a practical thing like a crm product and same way founders is like Hey alex i'm listening to your podcast i'm following you on social you seem like a great guy maybe i've run into you at a conference when i need a growth agency i'm going to go with web profits because i know alex and i like him personally and that's that's that's the reason it's an emotional not a practical reason to choose web profits i'm sure there are many practical good reasons too Yes that's again

why my personal brand is so important like if they like you as a human being uh it goes a long way so brand is a massive one and obviously it needs to be different and i'm not i'm i'm not talking about the visual brand but more like what you stand for and in this day and era i think brands need to vocalize also their set of values that are Outside of like oh integrity hard work you know like the basic but more like even taking political stances environmental stances like you know like look at nike

and then colin kaepernick and all that stuff you know right we have to take a viewpoint on how we you know what do we stand for um and uh but visual visually uh there's uh this guy i think is Australian byron sharp uh wrote the book how brands grow so he makes a case where distinction is is a key brand attribute and so think about i'm talking visually now certain brands own certain color sets you know like t-mobile owns pink and th l is this yellow and red thing and you know some brands just don't

want a color so when i When we launch copy testing if you look it's like it's the kind of this in an yellow because it's just nobody uses that color you know it's just we just want to own that color anywhere you go online you see that yellow it's copy testing yeah sure no we have the white black and the red thing that's not distinct because like there's a hundred thousand brands with the exact same color scheme It's kind of a legacy thing uh we might change it uh so i would so if you think

about visual brand i would think really different using you know pink as your color for growth agency because everybody wants to be much of color you go with pink yeah yeah yeah not sure that's kind of our color as well so it's good that you picked that color although we've just changed to a mandarin color that's That's that's the the evolution but that's really interesting so so it's interesting because you're saying that people want to connect on things that are outside of the thing that they're actually spending money on right so say for example i'm

going to buy like a jacket but i care about this political reason or this like environmental reason the whole sustainability thing that Works extremely well on social media you know having exactly and if you don't have a viewpoint if you're not communicating a soft reason to buy you there are just less reasons to buy you because you're just like everybody else and same goes for social media and what you say is because it's scary to say strong opinions you know it is um it is safe it is easy to be Um i mean it's scary

to be different and it's safe to uh it's tempting to be a safe and boring company is what i'm saying a safe and boring company says safe and boring stuff it's inoffensive and nobody will call you out on it but also nobody will care you know you will not get into a scandal nobody will accuse you of anything but also nobody will give a about you You know yeah so i think you need to be comfortable with alienating 50 of people and maybe even strong hate uh because it's polarizing you know people hate trump passionately

but they also love him passionately you know like you want to be like trump in in a good sense yeah no i get it um it's that it's uh um i think the first time i heard about that was from a guy called um rj abraham You know like he's like the marketing expert and he's like you want to polarize people and make them they say they hate you i love you like you have to do that because if they do that they'll take action the part in the middle is where you just die because

everyone exactly exactly right and so market awareness penetration is most important and differentiation helps you get there I mean there are other smaller things besides like brand you have to do other thing is like you're the first so you're a category creator uh drift and conversational marketing uh but again like being first is not a guaranteed sustained success like you need to keep on innovating but like you can position you know coca-cola the original and you know things like that then you can have uh what's called like Attribute leadership i do this one thing better

than others you know whereas like it's how drift positions against there come to say well we're for sales you know if you want to close more leads you use drift functionally then this is the same and like and they they position also income if you talk to drift uh sales reps to say well intercom Is about support it's wrong it's actually not but that's how drift says you position their competition you know you choose us and so that's attribute leadership um and then of course there's the preferred pro classic preferred provider like uh most doctors

you know uh choose our uh whatever uh you know can get it if like can get you know like most cmos choose web profits Yeah yeah so there could be history and heritage uh hard to do in tech but like if you do a restaurant you know this is my grandma's recipe from the sicily you know and then of course there's also specialization in us particular market so we are not a payroll software for everybody we are payroll software for online coaches you know obviously The problem is when other another payroll for online coaches emerges

because if there's money to be made in the market they will come but also your competition is you know like lots of people have built a smaller version of youtube that tried to build like oh i'm building a youtube for kids or youtube for cartoons and they all failed because youtube already was youtube for cartoons or kids Yeah i've also seen companies go for uh for a netflix i think in asia it was iflix and they were like for people who don't have a tv so optimized for phones and tablets and so on but like

netflix and that visa created them you know like so so you can have a oh i'm specializing for this target market but it might not be you know the big guy will still eat you alive you know Um yeah okay so where does uh strategy then fit into this because that was the third one we talked about a differentiation and brand and you said the other thing which you're really passionate about is strategy how do you define strategy first of all let's start with that because everyone defines a bit differently is is how you win

[Music] so strategy answers two key questions Uh where you play and where you play means which market which segment you're going after uh positioning comes into play here um so where you play and how you win so if i decide that i'm going for you know mid-size uh finance sas companies that's my market you know or i'm going for whatever uh stay-at-home moms That in wealthy suburbs you know so uh that's that's like the upscale you know like basically you decide where you play then you need to evaluate what's going on uh in terms of

to do to set the strategy for how you went how you can win in that segment where you choose to in that arena where you choose to play and it starts with basically you need to answer the question what's going on Internally and externally internally well you could still it doesn't matter where you start externally like who are the competitions what are they doing how are they positioning themselves brand audit which soft values are they saying also like practical um so you need to know who who's out there um and then internally also like what

are our capabilities you know like If you're a sas company like can we can we can we compete in software development like can we like you be an innovator or maybe we don't have enough developers maybe we suck at developing maybe we have a big audience maybe have a big community like what's going on internally what are we good at what are we not good at what resources do we have available And what do the people want like you need to also bring information about the market what do you know about the buyer and so

on and forth and then you basically decide on a course of like coherent uh you need to have an overarching overarching uh basically idea of how we how we can win this game and then you translate that into uh you know specific steps we do this This this this obviously every strategy is a hypothesis it's like a b testing you there's no way to know what will work the strategy is a hypothesis about what will work uh but instead you know in average a b test we run from 30 days or something an average strategy

you know you would run two years depending on where you compete it might Be less in maybe some faster moving like technology uh markets because if you do like machine learning stuff uh stuff changes faster but if you do you know consumer goods it might be slower and so in the 90s there was a uh basically this uh strategy guru um michael porter maybe you you know read a book of faith in college he was like Michael porter like i had to in my microeconomics classics i had to learn him he's like he wrote the

first book on uh uh strategy and competing on strategy so basically he said already then that instead of competing to be best you should compete to be unique so again in your market it comes down to the differentiation brand and so on Um we set a strategy we like the game of how we win is how can we serve our customers in a unique way and have a unique offering um yeah so this is something how do you find that because it's pretty hard sometimes because yeah that's all good but then you have to go

in and then if you're wrong two years pass and if you can last two years right yeah that's Fine so for us i mean i can give you some practical examples from like cxl institute so so cxl institute very competitive space e-learning you know it goes again barrier of entry to put up your own online courses i mean anybody everybody and their mother has their own online course right so we are competing with those guys who all Have some sort of a small audience you know uh and then they're the big guys the coursera the

udacity uh and then they're like mid-range uh you know there's digital marketer reforge [Music] all these players so where do we fit in linkedin learning is a big one [Music] linkedin learning is releasing 60 new courses per week 60 wow uh can we compete with them on a course volume like hell no we are small business you know 16 we have under 20 employees we cannot we cannot produce 60 courses per week so immediately in my strategy setting i now know i cannot win on that so i'm not even going to try to play that

game i'm going to try to play A different game so okay so if i look at coursera where again coursera is an aggregator they don't produce their own stuff it's all university licensed stuff different different model so if i look at coursera it's all academic if you're taking a coursera class you know what i mean it's it's pretty academic stuff i mean maybe there are some you know they have a lot of big library If you've taken a linkedin learning course what do you see you see that the production value production quality is pretty decent

but good enough but it's very superficial basic content and and if i look at digital marketer you know not to say anything bad about uh my amigos there but like our stuff like what their stuff in uh particular issues is also i think basic You know so looking at all these offerings out there and our own capabilities what is it that we have and can do and where we can win so basically we put together we can win on quality we cannot win win on volume we can win on quality and then but there is

a question of focus because we can't be broad we need focus so udacity is going all in well they have a lot of stuff but They're mainly focusing on all that the ai and machine learning stuff that's their i'm not going to compete with udacity because they have bigger pockets you know and so our focus is then also like also who is the audience that we already have that we can serve or get reasonably get where can we expand to like getting into uh training developers is too far overreach because like we're Marketing we don't

have developer audience and also for developers there's you know a cloud guru code academy and whatever whatever so based on that it's like okay we focus on technical areas of marketing conversion optimization digital analytics growth marketing um and and you know basically that's how i'm thinking i'm just describing my Internet yeah yeah no it's good answering the question of what's going on uh also if i look at my developers like internally we have had a lot of problems um shipping uh new features you know basically developing our learning management system uh so it's also like

i'm actually not sure that we should be even coding our own like we have our own uh but looking at it like i would we're Not competing on technology so i would actually be totally fine to outsourcing our lms to a third-party vendor because that's not again what what i'm competing on i don't want to spend money on it why we haven't done it is that i haven't found anything out there that does what we need like that has the features we need uh we've looked we've interviewed we've Done that trials so yeah that's basically

how i think about strategy and now i form our own how we can win and we're doubling down and obviously also we have the brand to support these or messaging you know since we're competing in quality and you don't dis uh develop um in-depth skills in two hours like our stuff is long like many degrees and we don't even Allow people to buy a single course like we have one two hour courses but you cannot have a serious upskilling after taking a one-hour class yeah so we we sell many degrees which are like around 100

hours which is serious effort and most are not willing to go through it so that means also our brand our brand needs to reflect that value of we we are not for the quick win Seekers we have for those people who are ready to work hard and have the discipline and think long term and you know our brand here is the go-getter so like it's all interlinked basically yeah sure and and i can see now why you went with the courses that you went with because um they are very technical for the professional marketer they're

not More towards the founder or towards um the entrepreneur or the entrepreneur that wants to learn strategies at kind of the basic to intermediate level you're like your stuff is basically like um like above intermediate to expert you know and so it's that specific like segment which there's not that much stuff out there and so you know like i know our team like has purchased like some stuff around Kind of some of the the um the tag manager stuff and all this other advanced stuff because that was just the best stuff out there that we

could find for that specific problem so i can see now how strategy kind of has reflected in that um totally you know where you win where you play and uh how you can win you know yeah so just because this has gone up This is gone over time and i didn't even get to all the things i wanted to ask you about so we're gonna start to wrap it up quickly now but it seems like like a lot of your success like in your career like at least since 2011 has come from your ability to

research and to think that you've done it in conversion excel with content um the same time just with all of Ventures and so on you know like like you want to understand the customer the market the competition the position in the the um the industry how much time are you spending on this part of it like is it like a lot of time or is it just some time just some time yeah and you know just doing the research i mean and the strategy and you know what i mean like This part of it i

spend a lot of time i mean i in my daily calendar i even i have scheduled thinking time and thinking time the way i do it is basically i sit down with a list of problems or questions really list of questions and then i either think i often do it also while lifting weights you know um but like i sit down with a problem and think Research google ship you know read it's just um yeah i mean also i'm an entrepreneur so it's not like it's oh it's 5 p.m i check out even when i'm

playing with my kids i'm thinking about strategy you know yeah yeah cool um how long a day was half an hour 15 minutes like an hour a day at least yeah an hour that gives you uh actually a book that Really informed by thinking around this it's called road to less stupid by keith cunningham um really goes deep into that uh and it's it's my favorite book for any founder entrepreneur it's like okay amazing great okay so now i've got some quick fire questions and people seem to like the quickfire questions i'm sorry i'm gonna

keep doing Them um if you had to choose just one channel for growth what would it be i default to inbound marketing uh because it's what i know about it depending on what business you're in which part of inbound marketing because that's a big deal i mean today to the content but and then you repurpose it you know it's on youtube It's on social it's on the blog there's a podcast any content you create you can repurpose which i think today you you need to okay cool number two sorry so what book has had the

biggest impact on your success oh it's different stages of life it's been different uh what's the most recent book then what's the most recent well then i'll go with the one that i just Mentioned which is uh road less stupid uh it's it really changed my thinking around many things yeah wow okay i'm going to get that book right after this what's your number one piece of advice for hiring awesome people uh be patient because you know you need to hire somebody and uh you have very high standards in the beginning but after interviewing you

know 15 candidates or you started basically your quality start you start lowering the bar because you need to fill the roll and then uh you you might settle for a mediocre higher and uh hope that they will raise the rise to greatness but it really never they never do they never do so i would rather not hire anybody uh rather than uh i mean get get a contractor in to fill The cap until you find somebody amazing uh yeah yeah cool how do you relax after a crazy day in the office or the zoom the

zoom office yeah uh i mean a glass of wine a day yeah okay perfect um of course what's your best time management or productivity tip have children [Laughter] Why i have a follow-up question for that one did they force you to be super diligent and disciplined about your time you know like you can't be a night old and you can't stay up all night long because you know you need to wake up very early yeah and so but basically yeah you know discipline around your time and children who force you to do it whether you

want you want to or not Exactly um cool okay what's the most recent piece of business advice that's been helpful to you the idea i think about a lot is uh don't build a marketing team build a media company that's something i think about a lot okay can i ask a follow-up but what does that mean exactly so instead of so if you have a marketing what is the goal of a marketing team is to create awareness right so what if What if you're somebody's favorite tv channel you know they want to follow you they

want to consume what you're putting out there which is basically media uh so you need to think of yourself we're meeting we're putting on a show uh some being somebody's favorite blog podcast youtube show has a massive value got it and that is the bar that i think about like if you're not somebody's Favorite you're just falling short and it's pointless you know yeah sure that's thank you one see you came up with something good and then what do you do for fun lift weights and drink wine cool thanks pep thank you so much for

your time this is such a good chat today for the people that are listening like if you want them To do one thing which site should they go to or which place should they subscribe to you uh you know follow me on linkedin and twitter all the good stuff will go there yeah that's fine that's exactly right and i see yourself every day and it is every day and i can confirm that and it's some really good stuff it's been so much fun speaking with you and um we'll talk again soon brother All righty thank

you cheers see you bye bye thanks for listening to the gross manifesto podcast if you enjoyed this episode please give us a five star rating on itunes for more episodes please visit growthmanifesto.com forward slash podcast and if you need help driving growth for your company please get in touch with us at web profits dot io