This Snake's Genetics Have Geneticists Stumped! - RGW Ep 80

hi this is Dr Ben moral welcome to episode 80 of reptile genetics weekly glad to have you here and uh I enjoyed um not traveling for one weekend finally that was nice got a lot of stuff done here I am I don't think I've talked about it on here but I am uh working towards uh maybe we did talk about a little while ago but working towards a point where I can have a uh dedicated space to do recording so I'm not in different parts of my house depending on what all the kids are doing

and stuff but anyway made some progress on that uh at some point still probably at least a couple months away hopefully I'll have a dedicated space to to record and make that a little easier and not have to set up and take down every time but but anyway um yeah and then I'll be traveling again this next weekend we'll talk about that in the episode uh as far as updates uh fast testing still going out pretty much every day uh in most cases one to two business day turnaround when we get your samples here and

uh sex determination for ball pythons and kuub brids is usually run a couple times a week so that's a three to five day turnaround and then the panels uh I think we're still going to be about a week and a half out from when we'll get panel results again but when I I have those and and uh I'm starting to prep them probably next week I'll be able to give you a little bit more specific time when we'll have the next pan fin results coming out and uh also over the next couple of weeks uh

maybe it'll take a little bit longer but hopefully we'll have some more new test information uh as well that we've got a lot of that going on too Lots going and uh see that the samples are starting to slow down people moving out of a baby season um so hopefully y'all are kind of catching your breath too I know it's been busy and yeah I think that's all I have Kayla how are you doing hey Ben I'm doing good and I I've decided once we have a dedicated space for you to record we're going to

get you like a proper green screen and we're going to get like pictures of people's snake rooms like you know with them just like working in the background and we're just gonna have that as your background just gonna just swap it around um so I have a different snake room every week yeah exactly you know just like oh I'm in Justin kila's snake room today you know uh so where will Ben show up next uh but yeah I'm doing well yeah I think so I think people would get creative with the pictures they send in

too so um we could we could have a lot of fun with that um so uh business stuff just real quick um a reminder that if you want to get shed testing at a lower price uh you can do it in you can order sheds in bulk um uh whether it's b ball python mutation sex determination or CD sex determination um if you order um if you order more at once um and you can do it in advance especially if you're expecting a bunch of clutches um this next season um or if your season is

this winter then doing that uh then you can get it as low as you know $5 to $20 per mutation test yep so uh what what you want to do especially if you have lots that you want to order just send a list to Sean renic gmail.com and uh he will get back to you with a quote and so that'll be specifically made for what you need to have done so it puts the the power in your hands to decide what all you need to have done and give you the the best deal that we

can give you and uh as we're moving into you know the slower season and and colder and then into next year um it's been a it's been a really good year and I'm I'm looking forward to seeing what what uh what all we'll be able to do it's it's you all really supported us well and we're very thankful and uh so I I'm I'm hoping each month that goes by for these next two three months you probably get even better deals from Sean when you get the bul price ordering Sean likes to do discounts uh

in winter time so you can you know order those get the bul discount um from emailing Sean at raren Inc Gmail um and also the winter discount usually he'll let you stack those up so um definitely take advantage of that for us every test that we do the more volume we have when we're running a test the better price we can get so that's why we want to give you a better deal through the slower season so that keeps our volume more similar through the whole year and be able to do the testing as cheap

as we can for everybody yeah definitely um and so you are going to so you're traveling again this weekend actually um and you're going to actually visit Justin kila's uh snake room right yeah yeah I'll be there for real with lots of people this is a yearly patreon event uh so I'll be able to meet lots of people and and see several others again and able to I think the last time I was at his place it's been a good three years two or three years so I I would imagine he's got some some updates

and so it'll be pretty cool to see what all they have going on there awesome I'm excited uh I'm excited to get pictures and um I'm sure everybody who's attending is really excited too good stuff um and so for stuff going on today did I mute myself okay I didn't mute myself awesome um also there goes Jay he's my partner um bye Jay love you um so uh we actually have some guests uh today um so I'm going to go ahead and bring them on that is Tommy from Inky clouds reptiles hi and uh returning

guest Dr Travis Wyman how's it going going good here doing well doing well good good nice it's always a hint when Travis is on we're gonna talk about some weird genetic stuff real way and Tommy's dealing us some some interesting stuff we'll get to talk about today oh yeah um but as a primer for it uh we're going to get you oh and okay Banner's just going to cover Travis's face it's fine that's so uh there we go so we're gonna start off um and War just kind of a a warm-up for the topic um

this is a um what was originally thought to not be a partho clutch um from Claymore Royals or Jonathan um man uh so here's a sire here is uh the pairing you've got a lesser female um a leopard male um and you know they have one baby come out that looks pretty bright but they're thinking that oh well the male might be um might have honey in him based on you know him talking to the breeder um and so this baby might be honey um but this Pure White Snake popped out and they're like huh

hang on what's going on there um and uh so you know that pretty much can confirmed it's a female a few of the eggs also passed um during incubation um they're probably going to send us some picture of those but apparently they're a little gnarly so we're not going to show them on YouTube but um you know you've got uh what appears to be a more normal possibly leopard baby um and then this super lesser which we genetically tested for him and that's a super lesser baby um so you can and when you go back

to The Sire yeah very clearly does not have ler so yeah no that's just a just a leopard I think and that that was part of what they're thinking is you know how do you make a white snake if there's no you know luster in that leper and that's why people said well maybe he has honey in him and the honey and the luster made a white snake but um but yeah ever done that has it ever done that oh okay it can okay got it yeah but uh when we did the testing The Sire

was negative for leop or lesser and uh the baby was a super lesser so that answers that and it is a female and the uh that leopard there is actually we tested that and a clutch mate also that was leopard and they're both females that are super leopards so oh how about that more evidence of them being Paro and and so that's a another reminder when you're thinking I I still hear people say all the time if it's Paro then the babies are going to look just like the mom and that's not that's not how

it works it's uh nope a how did you describe it Travis a half clone half clone half clone so if you think about it normal reproduction you have an egg and the sperm comes and that fuses makes an embryo well if there's no sperm getting to that egg that egg in apparently in snakes and other some other reptiles and other species um that can just double its DNA so if it is a lesser so that's just half half of an animal here so one copy of lesser is in there then when it doubles that makes

a super leopard or if there's no lesser there at all then when it doubles then you would have no lesser same with leopard if there's a leopard copy from from the dam there then it would double and that would give you super leopards if there's no copy there then you don't have any leopard at all and So you you're either going to get super leopards or nothing you're going to get super lessers or nothing but you're not going to actually get something that looks like the mom um unless it's like a a clown pi then

you would get everything looking like the mom because she's homozygous for clown and Pi so all of her partho babies would be females that would be clown pies so um and we did do a video that talked about the I think we use the term half clone in the video or the thumbnail um I'm going to try and Link it in here if I don't forget so future Kayla don't forget to add that in there so people can watch it um but yeah uh thank you Jonathan for sending us this uh you know pictures of

this really cool situation um partho clutches are neat um and it's even neater when you know they survive and you can see you know oh look at this uh you know look at these snakes that survived being a half clone um so really cool um and that is kind of a warm-up for a situation that Tomy has kind of you didn't get yourself into it it just happened and uh so we kind of brought you on to talk about it I didn't cook that up it was an idea no yeah Tommy's out there sticking her

snakes in the microwave we know exactly as one does you know um special note don't stick your snakes in a microwave it does not make mutations it just makes dead snakes yes it does don't thaw your rats in the microwave either no they explode guess how I know and it smells really bad I imagine great time uh so uh here's the pairing um that Tommy put together so do you want to talk about these animals yeah sure so um the female was a cinnamon head Pi that I had had for a little while and I

sent her down to my friend at gas reptiles um and her M she paired her to this male here which is a um iny black pastel clown poset hypo poset rainbow so we were going to try to try for some P golden eggs I guess with the possibility of and uh and uh pie bald and hypo all together which would have been nice um so um yeah so that was the pairing um the female had not gone for me prior to this so I see and she was also a poset clown she was a poset

clown yeah absolutely and but um I actually got her tested somewhere at rgi and um she came up not H clown so um she was tested prior to this pairing actually even um because I don't work in the clown project very heavily um I had tested her to see she was head clown um just for my knowledge for pairings later down the road fair enough yep um and so it would have been you know kind of a neat clutch but uh not necessarily this neat this guy popped out so yeah I was very surprised when

that popped out because I okay that really looks like a clown I don't work a lot a clown but I think that's a clown so um I sent Ben a message and I was like Hey lookie here this so um it's actually a female um and the since the mail is um inchy I was like well that looks like super inchy and that was really why I reached out because I was there was no possibility of super inchy or clown so I was like there's something really wrong here like it's not a testing issue um

so yeah that that that kind of brought me to that so I sent in a message and he uh waited patiently for the sheds um yeah so we we tested it and um it's not either of those things going to find out yeah amazingly this this animal tests as heck clown and one copy of enie whack right I honestly don't remember either yeah yeah that's what we came up with yeah definitely crazy and uh so one of the ideas you know was certainly that we just talked about a partho clutch and in pythons and boas

you have XY chromosomes and so if you have a male so talking about partha that's a female egg doubling and that becomes the embryo well if on the male side with androgenesis if the DNA that leads to an offspring being born if that's a sperm that somehow gets into an egg that does doesn't have DNA in there or the DNA got you know sent out as a polar body or I don't know the the mechanism but it's definitely much more rare than Paro but essentially it could be that the DNA could be two doses from

The Sire and then since he is a a clown and and has one copy of eni himself it would be possible to make eny clown a super eny clown but you know then that would be the androgenesis answer yeah but then when we tested that animal that very clearly looks like a super eny clown at least the clown part you know maybe somebody would say oh maybe it's not super but I mean it definitely looks like a super eni also yeah yeah so anyway definitely unexpected and uh yeah I I thought this would be good

to have Travis come on and just kind of shoot around some ideas it's this is also another example of you know we can learn a lot and we can you know do a lot of uh testing and you can see what normally happens but no matter how much we understand and learn there's always new stuff to learn and this one's teaching us yes sure all right um and we do have some pictures of the other clutch mates as well which I'll kind of flip through here um unless you guys unless Tommy you have some other

uh comments about this the siblings in here no I don't have anything super they're they're very what you would expect a black pestel you know um then inie um cinnamon maybe andg black pastel hard to know because there's cinnamon and black pastel in the pairing yeah um yep yeah same saying yeah this one was weird I don't know what this one is this one was definitely weird um and uh it was like bright bright orange when it came out so I actually did contact the person who the who um created the mail to ask him

if they had any orange stream or anything I was like is that an orange stream inie and he said no there's no orange stream in in it so that's another weirdo from the same clutch um but you know like incubation temperature fluctuations Etc it can cause some weirdness and banding and stuff like that so that might just be what that is okay yeah but it also looks like it could be super inchy does it with the yeah how high the yellow is on the laterals yeah yeah we didn't test anything else because I was like

mostly everything looks fairly as to be expected within yeah other than that one so so interesting but yeah no this this little dude um what do you think Travis well on this is one of those head scratchers obviously it can't be Andro if it's testing as a double head you know for the genes um there are a lot of very very out there kind of ideas um so one of them would basically be in total silencing of the chromosome allotment from the female H and so because the female was not a hat clown she would

have had a wild type because she wasn't eny she was cinnamon yeah it would have been either a cinnamon or the wild type Al there if both of those chromosomes were silenced such that they weren't allowed to transcribe then you get no wild type of the protein made and the only thing that's spit out is the mutant form so you end up with what appears to be a double homozygous animal now if this animal is head pied as well that's what I was I couldn't remember that kind of shoots that out the window unless clown

and eni are on the same chromosome and we're just looking at single chromosomal silencing um you guys want to like sorry did you guys want to like pull up like pull the email or the results somewhere real quick I didn't have an email I just saw something in person and he had it on a piece of paper that's why oh no because I like I saw him I saw him at the reptile show and he was like wait look at this and I'm like ah that yeah so I can't remember now honestly at all I

should be able to pull it up really fast I'll be able to hear you guys yeah I was yeah I was at the Charlotte show nice um if it was so while we find out if it was you know the theory that you talking about Travis so um in the case where an animal has all of uh the I think you said like the ex chromosome or just all the females it would be well it depends if clown and enie are on the same chromosome it could just be a single chromosome that is silenced okay

if they're not then that would imply complete hype silencing so everything from the mother is shut down and silenced oo and both are possible both are possible but we're looking at like ridiculously stupidly low odds type of thing there but it's it's a thing that can explain you know with the silencing basically what happens is the chromosomes are packed down so tightly that they can't be Unwound and translated and transcribed so you can't go from DNA to RNA from RNA to protein so the only thing that b r is the males genome interesting so how

that could happen with like with a female is we know that when we go through meiosis you know first you divide and you get a normal cell and what they call a polar body and that polar body gets spit out and then that normal cell splits again to give you two haid cells one of which moves on to develop and the other one gets set out as a second polar body if what happens is that that second division goes slightly wrong and you end up with everything in the polar body or you get some of

the packaging proteins from the polar body in the main thing all of the DNA in both the polar body and the main oite get compacted down so you have all the DNA there but it's packaged so tight that nothing can happen and then when Ben goes and processes it the DNA gets completely and totally denatured so all the proteins and all the stuff that would be packaging it and keeping it down in that locked down tight State they get broken up so then it unwinds and that's how Ben can test it and be like no

it's it's got the wild type jeans it has them it's just that in the animal they're packaged down so tight that they can't work so the only genes that are the only DNA that's available comes from the male and that's why it expresses as this yeah super eny clown that's amazing yeah and we did not test that that animal for pi so the uh the thing I was going to say is you know a lot of the time kind of go with what Travis was just saying a lot of the time we as Keepers think

of okay I have to have two copies of clown to get a visual clown wouldn't really what you have to have no copies of normal and so what Travis is talking about if you have one copy of clown one copy of normal but that normal gets silenced somehow by being super coiled or whatever reason it can't be expressed then all you see is the clown even though there's only one copy that's the only message that's there and so it will look like a clown so that is definitely possible I am pretty confident uh with what

all we've done with with clown and enie that they are on different chromosomes so it would have to be multiple chromosomes I'm pretty confident um so yeah we're we're still working on the eightball and I'll have an even more definitive answer for that soon but um it's it's so weird but it's certainly possible um and then another way that could happen is say there is something going on that caused parts of chromosomes to be uh not able to transcribe and that that certainly happens sometimes whole chromosomes get lost that's or you get an additional one

that's triom 21 or down syndrome you have three copies of chromosome 21 um also you can have parts of chromosomes disappear or you can have parts of chromosomes in in mammals in humans we have what's called imprinting and what happens there is there will be a a specific uh G Gene that makes a protein that has a function that when uh male and female make an offspring that that that protein is only made from one of the two chromosomes so some are imprinted on the the male chromosome some are print imprinted on the female and

so that that certainly does happen in mammals but that's not something you know it's obviously very strange for it to happen here but you know that kind of shutting down expression from one chromosome and not the other does happen um the other really big one in mammals is X inactivation so on the actual chromosome the sex chromosomes um in in like say cats this is a really good example a calico cat uh there's something called dosage compensation so if a cat has two X chromosomes and expresses all of the the genes on both X chromosomes

there's twice as much product or protein from that than a male would have a male would just have one X and one y and so some of those proteins in evolutionary history were bad if there is twice as much and so in mammals like us and cats um what happens is it's a natural process during development where each cell one of the X's will get CH chosen to be inactivated and it's random and so that way you don't have to worry about that dosage compensation because in every cell in a female one of those X's

gets shut down or at least the part the a big part of that X chromosome gets shut down so you don't have twice as much stuff coming out and so calico cats the reason why you get the different colors is because that color uh Gene is on the X chromosome and it would you know the difference whether it's black or orange or whatever and so when you randomly get you know One X the the X from the mom gets shut down in one cell the X from the dad gets shut down in another another and

that's why you end up getting this Calico look to the cat because it's this random X in activation and it's h ironic that the first cloned cat was a calico cat which oh if you understand genetics you know you're not going to get that same thing again because that's a random process but but anyway so there are there are examples where one of the two chromosomes gets shut down and all you see is the gene product from the one that's not so you know it's it's possible but yeah like like Travis was saying it obviously

we've done lots of this and this is very strange um another way to think about it is that I was thinking about the other night too is you think about paradoxes you know part of the Paradox animal it may look like a clown and part may look like not clown or you know as likely a he clown or whatever you know whatever that process is maybe this was a case where the patch of skin that that I tested maybe it's a paradox and most of it looks like a clown but the patch that I tested

had you know had once again that doesn't really make great sense because the whole thing looks like a clown but yeah I know well but actually it doesn't I was that was gon to be another thing I was gonna comment on uh kale if you could pull up the pictures of the animal in question yes so where the tail is hitting the main body yeah that little we you've got what looks like a paradoxing spot to me yeah so it is possible that and if you go up the next like the three black dots on

the back they're black and then go back again to go back to the previous one so yeah you've got that obvious Paradox Mark then you as you move to the right one two the three dots on the spine are very dark and then the next body marking that comes down part of it is black but then part of it got that high blush on the inside so that could be a paradoxing spot and if that's where Ben tested that could explain what we have going on is that's just Paradox of the double head version and

the rest of it is not so what you have is a androgenesis animal but it has a very small portion that carries these non homozygous cells which would be two very unlikely things happening in the same animal uh my mind's blown that was the case but I mean it it's thriving whatever it is so that's good a yeah exactly I don't know what it is but it's thriving well maybe what you'll have to do the next time it sheds is give me a chunk that you know is not part of any of those the head

give head yeah give me the head exactly yeah that that head definitely looks like a super eny clown it really does everything looks like a super eny clown yeah other than paradoxing areas for sure the other thing from a like a testing standpoint I always you know think about testing and how what what weird circumstances a test would be incorrect how it would be incorrect stuff like that um another thing we've we have talked about briefly and we have some updates that are coming to our we'll have some of this information there too but um

another possibility also once again not super likely but um there that clown mutation did randomly happen in the wild you know at least 30 years ago or whatever when we first imported them in um there could be another mutation that randomly happened in that same gene and my test doesn't cover where that second one is and so it could be that the female is actually the dam is actually het for clown but it's a different mutation than the one we test for or it could be that that new mutation occurred in the normal chromosome of

that one Offspring and so that's possible so the way we could test that is I could take that animal um that shed that that I have from it and the Head Shed that you'll send me here soon but I could sequence that whole Gene that the clown mutation is on and just see if there's another mutation there I doubt that there will be but that is another possibility if there's a a new mutation just like ultramel has two mutations albino has three different ones yellow belly has two so you know that can happen another one

along those lines is second site mutations so genes don't just act in a void usually they have other things that are playing with them like activators and repressors or something it is Poss possible that there is a a mutation not to the clown Gene itself but to a different Gene that represses the wild type and isn't repressing the clown mutation because either where that protein binds is different uh in terms of sequence for the clown or more likely in a case like this if that is the case where you're dealing with a CIS acting so

something that causes like the DNA to fold back over on itself and if if it's just a second sight mutation it's only working on the chromosome itself it's not working on the on the original chromosome itself it's not acting on the one that came from The Sire and again these these are all spitball ideas you know yes weird structural changes like this take a lot more to find than just hey look I figured it out by reading the sequence yeah yeah Ben with uh dosage compensation do you know if anybody's done anything like that in

snakes um I'm pretty sure well from what I've seen and read there's not any mechanism for that that I've seen yeah I I haven't seen anything either mostly because they're we're not dealing with uh heteromorphic chromosomes in snakes you know the the X and the Y are so similar that you can't even tell them apart they're not like what we have in uh you know Maman chromosomes and stuff but I just I also know that like in dropa the dosage compensation is the reverse where instead of the X one of the X's being silenced the

Y chromosome is or the X chromosome in males is double expressed interesting so if like something caused a similar type situation perhaps you're getting is just such an overabundance of the mutant clown Gene in that regard but again usually that is only dealing with the specific sex chromosome and we know that clown isn't on the sex chromosome right yeah and it wouldn't be both clown and eni on the six chromosome because one Ben has just said that they're not on the same chromosome and then you'd have a whole bunch of other bizarre factors going on

that I'm sure we would see yeah it seems like there's not like even so first of all as a disclaimer we're for sure talking about stuff that rarely happens the vast majority of the time you all aren't going to see stuff like this like you may if you hatch out enough clutches you might have a partho clutch but any of the other stuff that we're talking about is super rare and then even when we start talking about the rare stuff it seems like it's hard for any of those to fit this unless there's at least

two different rare things happening at the same time exactly and which is crazy odds yeah and in addition to that like we produce lots and lots of snakes that it becomes you know kind of like HOH hum but it takes a lot of stuff going right for an animal to survive and even Thrive I mean you know partho clutches you know the eggs die uh the embryos make it most of the way and then die um so for something really weird to be happening here and the animal is thriving and seeming to do really really

well um it that just kind of like emphasizes the possible Rarity of what's going on um so I'm extremely excited to you know start to get to the bottom of this like I'm uh I'm processing like 80% of what Travis and Ben are saying so um maybe 85% I'm doing pretty good like if you if you like watch my face through all of it I'll be like and then oh then it clicks you know like you could my head reacts when my when it clicks in my brain yeah exactly but I try not to go

too crazy in the gobble DG I know that I fail sometimes but you you both do a good job I think um of you know like when you when you use big words you also use the you know same same same but different uh hand motions to kind of help uh have like you know halfway visuals there uh to help explain it so I I think you've I think you do good and usually our audience thinks so um of course if there's anything in particular you guys want us to bring up in the future let

us know in the comments we'll make an episode out of it but um but yeah and we'll try to answer questions if you're like what in the world were you talking about Ben you know I'll try to explain it some more but yeah let us know in the comments and I I think definitely it's worth testing the the Head Shed and see if if it actually is a just a paradox that that simplifies it some but still is is kind of a weird weird situation you know yeah I don't know that there's a simple answer

to this one but not likely so you gonna keep it um right now Patricia has it and I think she's gonna keep it um with gas reptile you met her while we were down there too yeah yeah yeah she has in Texas entire clutch right now yep she's in Texas yep so yeah she has that entire clutch right now so um I believe she's keeping that one and we haven't really made any decisions about what's going to happen with the rest of the clutch we're just feeding it and going with it for the time being

fair enough and I I guess one other thing we would learn is maybe androgenesis doesn't work quite the same as Paro and maybe somehow that does make sense as an androgenic androgenic event um but yeah that's that's the only thing I I could even come up with because I don't have the the knowledge to come up with any other thing other than like maybe it's a maybe it's you know doesn't work exactly the same way um or like we talked about you know um maybe it's just wearing the clothes of a clown definitely funky yeah

put on his clown nose before heading out of the out of the egg awesome because it's so cool hopefully hopefully people appreciate being part of the process of thinking this through and it's not too frustrating that we don't have an answer because we don't know for sure yeah I think that's kind of the cool thing though is that we don't have all the answers yet and that's you know we thought we had all the answers until we had more knowledge and now we don't have all the answers and I think that that's really kind of

the value of Discovery right is that we don't you have to keep looking and you have to get it wrong sometimes and that's just part of the process yeah and if there was no testing at all and you happen to still choose that pairing which sounds like there's a chance you would have yeah then you would think oh it was a poset clown I just proved it out as a he clown and exactly and then I sold her as a he clown and I sold that animal as a as a clown and then somebody would

have paired it to something else and pair and said all the babies were head clown but none or half of and then and then every clutch that you bred that female from then on since she would be a heck clown just would have been bad odds every single exactly exactly yeah if I sent her on the way some would have been like Tommy sold me this this a he clown she's not even a head clown and you would have it would been bad you would have been completely confident she has to be a heck because

I had myself what's this then this is a clown right crazy so yeah good times had by all I I I really I thought that was a fun one so oh yeah for sure uh I guess Tommy and Travis will just keep you in for our shed donor shout out segment uh this this week it is the reptile Collective um and they are I'm gonna cover my own face uh like I did Travis earlier um uh this is uh Steve Beamer we met him at CBD Fest but he does way more than just uh CBDs

um let's see they've uh been on morph morph Market since 2017 they've got Facebook and Instagram they have their own website um and they' worked with all kinds of stuff um they uh Steve also wrote a book about reptile egg incubation um and it looks like he's got some stuff about uh both ball pythons and colubrid um incubation um and I love this picture on his Instagram that I just joed right before the show of this c a great test to see how hungry your snake is I guess I know like such a king snake

move and I love how they a lot of Kings like they constrict different from other uh I don't know like they they like Spiral it more than uh other constrictors that kind of just like Loop it around in whatever way they want just to squeeze and we're thinking that's a screwdriver right I yeah I think that's a screwdriver handle and what were you saying Travis my mle snakes sasus from South Africa they do the exact same thing they just that's awesome uh Slinky Slinky style constriction yeah um but yeah uh they um send in some

sheds uh kind of a different way than other people do uh we were at CBD Fest and just while I was you know staring at their scale of snakes one of which I would end up going home with um but you know I saw several different like a whole bunch of sheds actually of animals who just shed in the deli cups and I was like Steve can I can I get that just like not the snake the the shed and he was like yeah I don't care that's fine so uh figured I'd give him a

shout out for being a good sport about that um a bunch of people were but I I took several from it um from his table um that we can use for our research I think we got about a dozen like fresh sheds at that show didn't we yeah we did it was a whole bunch um and uh he worked with a whole bunch of stuff um these photos are from his Instagram uh corn snakes pituus um I don't I think that's a wild toad he found considering it's on a mushroom but he's got ball pythons

nerodia um and the picture on the right is of my little guy Jean Luke um putting on his his best angry face and well he he's he's doing his best to be ferocious but he looks like a little frog and I love and uh definitely go check him out um he is this week's uh shed donor shout out and Yeah I think that's everything we've got for this episode you guys um yall have anything else before we call it a day I don't thanks for coming on we appreciate it it's a lot lot more interesting

and we have other people coming on with us yeah and what were you saying to me I said thanks for having me yeah thanks for thanks for joining us and for uh sharing that really really cool clutch that you had um and Travis as always thank you for joining us and um always a pleasure and always glad to be here yeah all right well everybody make sure you like And subscribe and comment it tells the algorithm that we're cute and that other people want to see us um and I guess we'll see y'all next week

outro in three two one