DOLR - Part 1

I request you all to take your seats MH uh abishek can you announce from outside that we are starting I can hear a lot of people stand listening to me so I will try to really keep it very short crisp and very goal oriented so first of all uh welcome this morning to this very important workshop on a very important Topic land and land governance is a valuable resource not only for economy or Society but it's kind of livelihood for several citizens of this country the land is a source of livelihood in India and many

parts of the world at the same time land is something Which is a challenge continues to be a challenge in terms of its Administration Management primarily into several developing countries or the least developing countries we know that entire Africa southeast Asia and Latin America we are challenged by the land Administration and the land and poverty Conference of World Bank which probably Many of you may have been to is one of the most important and well attended event in Washington DC every year address tries to address how can we improve it how can we improve the

governance of land information that also speaks about the role of land in overall development otherwise why would World Bank take so much of interest in that any developing country which is fast Growing uh in terms of infrastructure or industrialization anything and everything will be built on some piece of land and the ownership of land uh titles of land uh you know demarcation of the boundaries most of the legal issues are or litigations are around that so what we are today gathered with is a workshop on survey res survey of Urban Land records and its value

impact For National economy so it's very crafted well the fact that we are talking about how survey and resurvey can help it can how it can actually create kind of you know technology or the information uh ecosystem which can help build a better governance governance is not limited to technology technology is only a tool technology is only a mechanism Which can help do this so in this Workshop probably our discussions would be more about Technologies and integration of the Technologies and the practices which we can learn from other countries or other states or each other

though land has a big uh financial and legal you know issues associated with that most of the challenges which we talk About are very much embedded rooted into the legacies and rooted into uh the complexities of the land Administration or the way a society has evolved the heritages have kind of been transferred I do not think that we as a group can get there as much we better leave it to the administrators but what we can help them how to measure land Better how to make it more accurate measurement how to even we can tell

them that what was the kind of boundary probably to some extent after you know resurveying done we can say that what was before and what is now to some extent if you go back to the some of the satellite imageries as a reference point you can also see a bit of land Ed 10 years before and land used today that may not be very precise so once you create a very Precise map then on top of that you bring some other information so it can become little bit more uh useful so what we are going

to discuss here uh in this Workshop is the technology Innovations which are taking place around our industry we're going to discuss about several Technologies which are either being used or have a possibility of being used uh in Resurveys and we're going to also look at how to bring all the data from different sources of current or past and harmonize that and present that in a usable format and then look at connecting that information with uh kind of registry Network or whatever enterprise system we have for Registries or updation of the records so the day would

be more driven by the technology possibilities what I'm Time and again emphasizes on emphasizing on this that is a huge subject right and we cannot address the who that totality of the subject in one day what we can address today is how the geospacial space or other Technologies can help it and you all would agree that uh there is a need of more uh you know coordinated approach so before we get to this level first of all let us uh you know Complement the government of India because this is the first time that the union

budget of government of India has made a provision for Urban Land records that's in itself is acknowledgement and recognition of the valuable role of Urban Land records in the transformation of India our ambition of development would be supplemented by or argumented by these initiatives and when this happened in July this announcement came in July within uh two months time the government of India hosted a two days International Workshop in Delhi in partnership with the World Bank and World Bank please come here World Bank was invited to help them share those you know thoughts processes and

all of us participated there quite a lot of us participated there so we did a kind of in a review of literature what is available Where within a few more weeks uh we invited about 20 uh technology experts from different companies uh to our office of GEOS Special World and we had about one day workshop on looking at uh you know kind of harmonizing the technology processes what could be the standard process I know we all have our own views but is there a possibility to make something which is a standard operating process for survey

and Resurvey which is driven by the output which is driven by the what kind of accuracy or information uh we want to create and how that information will be updated through uh you know integrated Enterprise platforms and how that information will go into uh uh the registry systems so let's focus on the technology side more and more uh rather than uh but of course experiences of implementation of the technology on the ground which stops or you know you know Which stops or uh becomes a impediment is equally important to share but share we cannot actually

address many of those issues within one day because again it's a kind of interconnected I would not disagree with you all I would agree that it is very interconnected system and those on the ground challenges which we may face while doing survey or resurvey be it in the form of uh legal challenges be in the form of Social Challenges be in the Form of uh you know various kind of administrative challenges and you all know what I mean because when you start going for implementing this that is when you start looking at those challenges but

then how do we overcome them uh or rather sensitize the administration and help them find a solution to that level uh you know is important so uh allow me to thank Department of uh Land Resources uh the secretary Mr Mano josi himself is very enthusiastic about it and he has met several industry people he has spent time into uh you know discussions with the all of you he is providing that kind of leadership administrative leadership with a positive mind and since he was the Secretary of urban development in before coming to land resources he is

quite acquinted and aware about the role of land records into urban governance and I Think that's been very useful and uh that we all have to basically leverage his knowledge experience of Urban Development and his uh you know commitment to take this big project forward secondly I want to thank uh you know Kunal who could not be here today uh you know the parliament session is in and after this project has been announced I think the biggest number of questions from the parliamentarians have come on the Urban Land governance so He's he's busy writing those

you know responses but I think it's also means that so many questions coming on you know Urban Land actually also makes it I would say challenging but it's there is an opportunity so if you start looking at an opportunity then we uh would be able to make better you know progress so uh I want to thank Kunal uh he's been very supportive very uh you know uh partnership oriented he has met Almost every company who has approached him to discuss so he's very open to talk and he's a good administrator I think that he would

be in a position to synthesize and uh harmonize the whole process and provide that leadership moving forward the format today uh you have the agenda in your hand uh I think Kunal satari is likely to address US virtually uh sometime uh whenever he's ready please let me know okay So he will provide a big you know overview of the program but what I want to say I'm really impressed about it especially the information for the states that implementation of this project of Urban Land governance is very much linked with what we call P scheme which

is performance linked incentive so the federal government is providing more you know pis schemes for implementation of this project which is kind of driven by the objective of you Know productivity and efficiency of the process I believe Kunal satti is online can somebody confirm yes s I'm online sorry for joining late because of the traffic and all so yeah I have joined good morning Kunal can you hear me yes and we all can hear you uh and good morning morning San G how are you I think hope it's going well I'm sorry for not being

able to uh be present uh in person there because of the pressing official engagements but uh Good to see that uh so many people have joined and the the you special you smart India conference has proceeded very well and I could see the exhibitions doing very well and all the other I so much wanted to be there but um my team is there so uh my members are there a lot of people have connected online so uh extremely sorry uh for uh you and to you and to all the audience I'm not able to be

presented are we fully understand and Appreciate uh you know Kunal because we know that you are held up in Delhi for some more important issues in fact I was just talking about it that the flurry of questions on the land governance also indicates the increasing interest in this topic by the parliamentarians and the you know so that's a positive thing and we should uh uh leverage that opportunity so uh I have just provided a kind of you know background uh of the event and why we are here together and I I also want to uh

since you are here Kunal I want want to really welcome uh our speakers from International Community especially from GEOS special commission and France and uh US government uh census Jos and Chris and jardi and you know they have agreed to share some of their experiences as well and we have uh very good attendance actually from the industry and international tech Companies as well here with this I would request to uh deliver your overview address and share your information with all of us the big ticket project okay thank you San G and your team um and

your special world who has organized this conference and thanks to all the uh International speakers and participants who are present in this hall right now I also uh take on regard that more than 50 states uh par 50 Participants from the various States from revenue department Urban Development Department are present in this Hall and my friends in the uh industry uh with whom we have been engaging uh continuously and repeatedly uh since uh we conceived this program now having said that um there's lot of been um developments and landard scenario in the country we have

moved a lot in uh rural land records we are uh almost culminating the process of uh if You use the words digitization that that looks to be on track whatever was available in the textural numerical or spatial domain in the large country like India and uh uh with the diversity that it has and I more I travel and more I discover the diversity I was in jarand and Bihar for four days during the weekend and I realized that the record of rights have been written in a language uh Cath which not many people understand now

so having um 1935 1920s The language used in under the nagpur tereny Act and the Bengal tereny Act was Kathy and Bengali how do you translate or transliterate them and digitize them so it has been a challenging uh job of digitizing it uh the textural records and the numerical records even the measurement systems in the country are extremely diverse uh so you have the same same term used for different measurement units it's not a metric uh system traditionally but has been Converted now to metric system so a lot of movement uh a lot of good

work uh my predecessors and the government of India with support and active cooporation of the state governments have been able to achieve particularly in the domain of uh digitizing whatever we had and that's a good movement because otherwise everything was in paper and uh paper crumbles paper loses its life and a lot of things have Frozen from last five years 10 years 20 years 100 years some Of the records are valuable which are 100 years old so a large um the movement has happened on digitizing this now having said that and keeping this records in

the digital environment and then keeping the original records in compactors and modern record rooms very well furnished and well protected now that's uh done uh all the uh Revenue officers in the country uh all the uh registrars in the country have been computerized uh they have been brought Online so just to mention some of the achievements and then I move ahead what the challenges are and uh what engagement we want so um these offices have been uh computerized there are systems that have been created uh which enable them to be online so uh in India

uh unlike lot lot of Western World the registration system and the registration vertical is totally different from the revenue vertical land record vertical so that distinction happened long time back In 1908 so registration system is independent system which registers any document of removable property uh and other things also wills and marriages and all that but they also register uh a piece of land or structure on a piece of land so a registration system has been behaving quite independently has created own set of records of buyer and seller for almost more than 120 years now that's

a challenge because that system has also been um kind of made online Computerized but all those 100 Years of registry documents are not available in the public domain forget public domain not available to the government officers also so that is a huge challenge because registration system is extremely independent of uh the land record system and that is how it has evolved um was presumed must have been presumed that whenever you register a piece of land or a flat idly should be recorded in the land records but that has not happened So that is one um

large challenge we are trying to encounter now and try to move ahead this would be relevant for urban land cards also because as I go ahead I'll tell you the hotel that you're sitting in right now and having this conference uh must be surviving on a non spatial piece of paper going and check I have done this in some of the conferences must be a lease agreement or a blank agreement or a registration document no landord for SE so that's a very important challenge because registration system has created a huge pleora of document uh by

way of registration Deeds everybody in sitting that Hall where I'm not able to be present today uh has a flat or a plot or a bungalow or whatever wherever you live or wherever you work all those please go and check back all those IM property currently is a piece of document uh signed between the buyer and the seller and uh legally witnessed by the Government government only Witnesses and there are two more witnesses who W witness the process and try to figure out uh that uh um there's no durus both the parties are independent and

they they're doing this as for their own stuff I'm bringing this in because uh this is what we are trying to solve because registration is a piece of document which is more like a formal agreement but has no spal uh domain it tries to create uh in the registration Document all four sides of the piece of land or flat that you're trying to uh register it just does create uh as per the um Mandate of the um statute but doesn't move beyond that so once you created this special domain by various measurement or no measurements

or or just by saying what lies on the four sides of the of the place of Earth that you're trying to register should be reflected in the landord now this has not happened uh for almost 100 years More than 100 1908 the original Act was 18770 so almost a backlog of huge backlog know of almost 150 years now this is important for Urban Land records because the only record available in most of the cities is a registration uh document a good document and uh but having no spatial domain so you don't know has never been

fixed by the government where this land belongs was it was not mandated so that interlinking uh between The registration department and revenue Department's land records has started happening now a lot of states in the country uh mandated that the registar would not be a blind person you can go and register this hotel that you're sitting in one of you can become a buyer and a seller produce a piece of paper both of you are fine uh the hotel land and the hotel itself could be registered so U we trying to add value to that and

some of the states have moved ahead and Told the moment you are talking about imal property you have to look at the landord so there has to be wisdom in the registration process now how do you get the wisdom you get the wisdom from two sources one of the source could be that the registar could look at all the prior registration that have happened so if you're registering this hotel I should be able to check who has got this registered before now that wisdom is very critical and that wisdom you can Create only when you

create all the Legacy document uh scan them digitize them uh then uh create the metad data make it searchable not only for the government officers but also for the citizens so that I am sure a piece of land that I'm buying uh nobody has bought before and most of the urban or per Urban scenario has struggles of court cases because the same piece of land of one acre has been sold uh to two acres because people have gone and Registered and everybody thinks they they're a coowner in land but actually it's not right because it

has been sold many times or sold not properly sold for a different plot of land and the paper say something else so that's one big challenge uh we have been also uh the revenue courtes or the land record department uh not the settlement department uh the land Department in the country has a process of mutating a particular piece of land and Both textural and on spatial domain now when the U we call it normally the online platform we call it rccm Revenue code case management system uh system was coded was given to all the states

a lot of states have started using it almost all have started using it uh but they have not uh been able to link properly with the registration system right now so uh the revenue court case system uh the U where you mutate lands where you resolve disputes of owner Ownership of shape of area of name of numbers um that option is available um in the system registration has no uh option right now so if the regar has um has registered a deed and there's no option of refusing or cancelling uh the deed unique phenomena it's

a oneway traffic there's no appeal uh currently we are trying to uh we're getting into uh trying to look at how do we uh make the registration act more Dynamic and contemporary and pragmatic that will be Solving a lot of problems because then the regist has to look into the land records and look into the registration records and then register a piece of flat or a having said that uh the in integration of the systems is being done right now our emphasis right now is on integrating the registration system with the Cod case management system

with the landard system if all three integrate flawlessly a lot of problems in future would be Solved now this is about future and I told you about the past because past has generated a lot of papers currently how do we take out that the second important emphasis that we are putting now is on making the whole process paperless so uh once you have uh there should be option for the citizens to not depend on stamp vendors and deed writers and lawyers and Advocates not that I'm against their jobs but this is such such a simple

process you are buying somebody's Selling there's no legality in the whole thing right I mean the registar is not looking into the value of the document uh who is The Advocate and what is the advocate doing there so uh Deeds are being made online so if you want to Flat a buyer seller can generate online deed uh if you generated online deed you don't have to go to the vendor to get a stamp paper uh generate it watermarked online like you pay for any service you know in the country now we have such a Majestic

system of paying for uh anything that we buy uh we can buy government services also why go through the long channel of uh stamp s and duties and Etc why you have to calculate things when you have things on GE special domain the registration fees and the stamp fees can be calculated online um depending on where you can buy your flat where you're buying your land so that's a large portion of making the whole thing paperless we also uh Attempting to make the Revenue code case systems paperless and also more less converson the biggest fear

in the country is that I'll take you to the court and then the decisions will happen uh over a period of time when the legality is there when you want to determine the title when you want to determine the area uh please go through the process here all the parties perfectly fine but in not in normal cases I'm buying a flat you are buying Taking a piece of land we have complete ownership over the whole thing there's nothing legal there's no application of legal mind or regulatory mind in the whole scar so that's important uh

Movement we happen lot of states have already gone ahead uh I don't want to name States right now uh but but lot of movement is happening and as sanj was saying uh if you do all this we are incentivizing the state government honorable Finance Minister in the budget Has announced that we will be incentivizing uh reforms in land records both rural and urban now this is a large picture looks like a rural incentive program but has a huge impact on Urban uh land records now coming back to what we are trying to do and what

I'm supposed to be because this is important to understand uh what the problem is and uh we are trying to move so rural andards are as such digitized we don't have clue about what the current Ownership looks like you know I was again borrowing from my last T and um I'm just naming two states I thought I'll not name States today U you know 1935 records and thereafter the records are all temporary uh receipts or form two registers and um the current spatial domain uh doesn't reflect the ownership domain on the ground zero so much

sale has happened so much inheritance has happened so much families have um bifurcated and moved ahead uh now that's An important thing to do so what I see as the new DMP program whenever it is written in a year or so when we finish the this phase of the LMP program on 31st March 2026 is the sunset date for this program The Next program or the quter program which we might right would be a large program to look at survey and resurvey of all the land partes and some subdivide a lot of papers have been

generated so mutations have happened you know I have bought you have sold Mutations have happened luckily if it has happened registration has happened followed by mutation of the land but on the map uh where this mutation is happening where this land is located has not happened in large SWAT of the country I can very well say around 90% of the except operations like Tamil Nadu or madha Pradesh some of them Maharashtra Gujarat some them claim that they maintain aala tripura all the variations are there and some of them Have not moved Ahad so we U

have another program within the D program it's not a new program but it's a program quite similar to swam but quite complex and that is what I'll speak for the next five to 10 minutes on and then maybe allow for some questions now uh the second wave of land record digitization happened in the ministry of PCH Raj and co-partner technically by the Survey of India Guided by the Survey of India through the emandal agencies of private Companies and Industry Partners is that we try to figure out how do we map the uh rural habitations now

that's very important now we call it Som program uh good friend Al is running that program but because the during the colonial time and also during the mul time the villages were never measured because it was a lot of interest to them so um the second way happened in swamit program when we tried to map and all the habitations so there's it's called Lora Or you put up a line and say this is not measured because this is not of interest to us and people who don't understand the land record perspective land records in India

were generated for Revenue land records in India were not generated for ownership or position that is very important government kept a record on the citizens behalf just to determine what you growing what crop you growing how much is irrigated land non- irrigated land what seasons you grow and How much tax you can give look at the record of rights in the country they all have very strong emphasis on how much revenue can be collected how much will the landlords collect how much the Kings will collect how much the colonial rurals will collect so the whole

whole structure is built on uh Revenue generation you measured land for Revenue generation now you using the same measurement for ownership and position that's a huge dilema now you have to Very very perfect you know in those days the land was not so precious so it's fine you measured wrong right with chain compass with the methodologies available at that point of time great PL great great pain must have been gone to measure these lands uh my core is forestry I I can just imagine 19 1890s to 1920s so many teams measuring the whole country determining

the boundaries of the forest putting boundary pillars byy angles by chains I don't know how How people carried so much and all the measurements and they look very precise I just put a 30 cm hrsi image onto the cestal map of 1935 both in Charan and Bihar they completely fit with some mismatches it's fine those are fine because the because you were not missing at 30 cm at that point of time so um that is important domain now coming to Urban we also this is the third wave I can if I can say so um

the Naka program as we call it is the third where Naka in Udu or pan or Hindi means a map so the urban area is the map portion and now I'll talk about only this because then I can go on and on but when agriculture land converts to non-agricultural land you know one acre fragments to 30 plots or 10 plots or and then the city becomes too expensive to buy land and the city starts Rising vertically um so much travel that I do uh it's very difficult to recognize which city you are in Long time

back when you drive through a city You can figure out you are in udur or kanyakumari or aala all the cities if you don't go to the Heart of the City The Old City all cities look same they have apartment complex and apartment complex because land becomes so precious so initially there is horizontal fragmentation of land uh initially you know so the second wave of uh the first wave must be in M times Delhi hardcore Delhi insides is M time and before eight cities of Delhi but then the second wave Happened you know all the

peripheral areas of South Extension ralash etc etc if you know Delhi or the city you sitting in Hyderabad the core of Hyderabad and the second wave of Hyderabad which is looks flat which looks like two story building or three story buildings you know land was not so precious so people had those Bungalow concept and then that that building has fragmented into three brothers or three people have bought and sold so vertical Things started very late and now if you go beyond the second wave of growth in any City the third wave is all vertical you

know you have just apartment because the land becomes it's not only Bombay which is growing vertically even indors and aalas and gotis are going vertically it's cheaper to live in that you can fragment land how do you divide ownership of land in an apartment complex in goti or in Bal or in ja is interesting questions to answer so we Realized under the current leadership of secretary D Man josi s that um Urban and per Urban Land records are lost very dly most of the problems in the country if you look at legislations in the country

or court cases in the country two-third of the court cases civil courts not Criminal Courts even criminal courts uh civil courts two3 of the cases are being fought for land I think rest of the one third must be government employees against the government uh is What of my guess is but I not done the analysis but two3 of the civil court cases in muil towns and small towns and cities people are just fighting uh for land for their ownership to be recorded for the area to be recorded and all that so if you do good

land records in rural in swamit in the rural habitations rural agriculture lands and in urban particularly because the value of land in urban is almost 1,000 or 100 times between that range Vis the next Agricultural field so value becomes very high can you imagine the value being so high and the measurement being so impr precise it's all guess work right now you know the officials still measure with the old methodology I don't know how they measure and what they measure but for land as precious as 10 cm and 20 cm can be fought in a

civil court and can lead to criminal cases was some of the inter lands of India a lot of criminal activities and cases not even Interland even in perban areas of gura and gazabad it's all about land Empires know you have land or you can get land or you can buy land or you can go and register a land or you have the WHERE with all to do that so Law and Order both criminal and civil would go down if you do good land reords now last point is that um in the city um where I

should have spoken more about is we don't know currently I don't know at all uh having I think I've heard and met most of the Prepared people in the hall unfortunate I can't I could not meet the other half which I have not been able to meet till now but we have been open you just send a mail or a whatsa I'm ready to meet you uh hear you and what your experience you have but the challenge is open to all it's not my challenge it's a challenge to all the industry partners and the states

together to work with now the challenge is that in urban areas there is registration document uh most of the People have a registration document people survive and get out of registration document because in India if you do a 11th month um agreement you don't pay the stam Duty L of City would be on uh basically on uh agreement deed so I just wonder because I'm just opening this pend box some of there limited experience uh some perfect so Maharashtra Gujarat Goa three states in the country have had City survey Department since British time since 1910

so the measure land Bombay every piece of land is measured precise non- precise I don't know but there's huge measurement of land in urban areas in Maharashtra uh Gujarat and Goa although that system also needs to evolve it is still not perfect they're also struggling with um fragmentation of land uh rest of the country uh I can just name ch rur goti aala bopal some of them have continued to maintain land record And then G gave up at some point of time this is not possible for us anymore we can't measure we can't Mark you

know you can't mark on a small piece of land if there are 20 you can just keep drawing some lines here and there but they're not cadastral so this is a problem now registration documents is something uh so we are trying to fly three Technologies I don't know which one is perfect in spite of talking to all of you having talked to s butam team Survey Of India current team the past team uh Survey of India we don't know what to do so we have three Technologies now uh we taking 150 cities as pilot uh

we want to do around 60 70 cities uh by just flying 2D naad camera uh just get me the roofs and the um water tanks and maybe get us a stereo image if you can get me imperfect stereo images but they are helpful uh for visualization get me that and we'll try to create Urban lands uh we know some cities are very complex so Some of the Cities uh are going through uh the oblique cameras so they would be um using obli cameras almost similar numbers exact numbers are difficult to say but similar numbers some

cities particularly in the mountains and particularly extremely complex cities know complex and old cities where you can't get any aial photogrametry canopy cover is high slope is extremely high you're trying to measure Shimla by drones uh by 2D I Don't know um how do you do that so we are also using some cities on uh lar I might be totally wrong but this is what I heard from we just a pilot we'll learn in this pilot so this pilot and we are flying these three kind of instruments flying should start very quickly by the time

this Workshop ends uh there's the commitment I can see here even though they look small in the screen I can see a lot of surve of India officers uh sitting there uh I presume we are Working on timeline So within this week or the next week initially portions the commitment is that the tender documents will be out and the awards of the contract will happen I think the flying would have been completed the feature extraction testing of the companies would have been completed in dadun and Hyderabad uh after doing that the flying will happen for

next two three months we incentivized the program first office kind India uh the timelines are six Months and three months for 2D and three months for 3D and stereo and all the asset mapping and all the other attributes but if you do it quickly the uh the incentive is 2.5% per week uh so you finish your job quickly you get incentivized by 2.5% per week now this would start after that last points that I'll mention is the complexity of the uh problem so then the problem starts flying is good I I'm I love flying blood

and getting AAL photogrametry and making Even making twin images Twin City images that's fine the the music that has not happened till now is now trying to make Enterprise solution that digest the O sheet building footprint digest the uh registration documents available on that particular building footprint digest the property taxation document which looks like a very good uh document right now in the country Everybody Plays property tax so all the property taxation document are also available in various Format the more I travel the more I become wiser or unwise um there is manual ways there

are point locations and some cities go specially enabled property taxation so can these layers of O uh marry the uh layer of property tax if it is available on if it is your tag or if it is in GE special domain then you take the registration document and any other document that the citizen produces at that point of time that's the challenge in Swami we do not Have any document Swami was a green field program Urban is not a green field program it's a complex program so uh we we need to uh digest all this

documents and give two outcomes I say normally is that try to find out who is the owner and how much he owns who is the owner is a difficult thing to do uh c-terminus with how much does it own you can give us all of you sitting in the Hall uh can give us how much do you own maybe uh who owns the determination of title is where One of the states Bihar currently is struggling with and finding its very very very precisely using imagery of 2018 uh on off Aeroplane and um 2D uh cameras

but uh that interplay solution uh is being built uh currently uh the storage space uh cloud storage space is under Discovery right now as we talked today till yesterday uh I can see mpdc Team there uh they have been trying to discover what looks like a good way so people are looking at Enterprise Solution because now we are preparing for ground truing you know go and ring the bell in urban area and say this is what the government has this is the or sheet uh this is the property tax that you're paying I want to

determine are you the real real owner give you a property uh give you a property card or we call it land records card uh precisely uh is a challenge so that is ground true thing we are incentivizing all the state governments incentivizing Providing funds uh is when we are also providing for Rob wordss to be bought so many teams to be created a large field is opening right now uh is of surveyors we have deficient surveyors we'll require few thousand or few lck surveyors across the country as we go ahead in this program currently people

are scrambling you know we hire a surveyor we hire as a service from a company end to end who uses the Rovers who gives us the surveyors we don't buy The Rover we buy the Rover I'm not getting into that traction right now because every state in the country is at different level whether you buy your over whether you provide for a uh provide for a uh service to be that G but uh that is the journey we look forward to and then publish a map too and let the citizens uh figure out what is

right and wrong so that looks like a challenging Tri and after the dust has settled in the city after the sandstorm Has moved on is when you publish the final land records and tell this is with uh this is the only true piece of paper that we hold uh and this is what your property whether you it's a flat or a program or a shop or a industrial complex is so I'm sorry I'm I think I sended long but um that should be enough from my side uh thank you so much to sanay and steam

and my team there thanks to all the state representatives who are present and thanks to all the industry Partners and Industrial Partners grateful to this for to thank you thank you Kunal uh thank you very much for presenting an overview of the program as well as the incentiv incentivization and welcoming the leaders to come and talk openly and also the speed at which you are uh planning to uh actually execute this program that all talks about uh this kind of importance which the government is putting on this so Without taking much uh you know time

now uh Kunal if you are willing to join you're very welcome and you know in between uh from your have a questions to the team of people here I wanted to make uh before I invite my first uh moderator I just wanted to request everyone see we have a very important day and purposefully we have provided opportunity to almost 30 people to speak or 25 people to speak which also means that be very objective oriented in your Interventions we have three international speakers uh we would uh have them present in 10 minutes each as per

their slots but uh there will be no other presentation otherwise the work Workshop is all driven by discussions so we have invited some panelist who will make some introductory remarks in 3 to 5 minutes but it is more inter you know more of uh you know discussions if our chair who is very moderate uh tries to uh you know stop you please don't mind Content is to give opportunity to each one so that we can actually bring all that information synthesize that information and deliver that information to a actionable format and actionable plan to the

Department of land resources with this I would like to request uh left General Gish Kumar former cway general of India uh very uh you know well-known uh expert uh being the mission director of several uh you know programs uh being at the core of Transformation of surve of India also has been advising swamit yosa he's been advising harana government as well as he's adviser of Ministry of external Affairs so he is involved into the decision making or rather you know promoting GEOS special technology and its value so uh I hand over the session to him

and I also request all the you know speakers to come on the stage panage Mishra from surve of India uh GV sham from neoo panage pedar there are Two page now from uh you know gono and um gmr group Ravi Kumar from iic and Prashant from Prashant Sur thank you sir please go ahead yeah uh very good morning to all of you uh first of all I would like to convey my sincere thanks to uh Department of land resources uh for giving me this opportunity to moderate this uh very important uh topic and also uh

gwf uh Sanjay and his team for Organizing such a wonderful Symposium our uh theme for today's session is modern suring techniques for Urban Land records and aial photography and Beyond uh Kunal G has uh covered quite a bit about the background and purpose and what is the status and how we are or how the government is planning to move forward and uh as we all know that land records have been uh uh prepared for the last four and a half centuries and the first modernization took place when Raja Toal he introduced some of the uh

improvements in land measurement from uh uh tape to chain and other things and it continued this technique continue to improve and the modern uh serving techniques for urban whether it's Urban or rural land records have significantly Advanced which enable very precise and efficient mapping of the land boundaries so today we are here to debate and discuss uh various surveying techniques which are uh uh existing or which are Available which are open uh for use uh to the government agencies and we'll uh discuss each one of them one by one and we'll see what are their

strengths what are the shortcomings and whether they can be used independently or they can be used in uh combination with other Technologies and uh we have a very uh esteemed expert panel and I know all of them they they are Masters in their own domain so I'm sure uh we'll be having very precise and crisp answer to each And every uh question so my first question uh goes to uh panage like uh the first question I'll ask about the only Technologies their strengths their weaknesses drawbacks shortcomings and how they can be used so I'll request

you to uh tell us about the aerial photogrametry which is one of the uh oldest technique man aircraft especially uh which has been in work for using surveying technology so I'll request you To explain to us thank you sir yeah thank you sir uh good morning everybody uh myself pankaj Mishra Deputy survey General from NST Survey of India Hyderabad so regarding the use of aial photogrametry uh like uh aial photogrametry had been in use for a very long time like uh in in Survey of India we had been using it uh in our production processes

for a very long time and uh since this uh Technology has evolved uh uh in in past uh like 10 to 15 years the completely digital uh uh like uh kind of photometry uh processes have uh become very common so we had been using uh the aial photogrametry in in various National level projects and uh I think this is one of the technology which is there as part of this pilot in the and Naka because uh the kind of uh works we had done uh in the swamit program uh wherein uh the orthorectified imagery based

Processes were at the core and uh the the problem statement uh and the kind of solution which was in vies in swamit was was uh actually suiting to the uh the technology selection also but here in the urban context uh when we talk about uh the urban complexities uh I think uh the uh aial photogrametry uh with the kind of uh 3D capabilities uh which it offers uh uh is is definitely uh going to be very very useful and uh I think uh we will be getting a lot of clarity as Uh Kunal s was

telling uh out of this pilot in terms of uh uh uh developing the the process standards uh for for scaling it up uh in let's say in in the in the other towns uh when when this uh pilot phase is expanded to a full- fles phase so uh aial photogrametry and the stereo photogrametry definitely it's a very very proven kind of Technology uh when it comes to the the uses of uh high resolution mapping or the mapping kind of applications so uh and uh it is very Uh heartening to see that this has been uh

actually chosen as one of the technology option and uh definitely uh it'll be it'll be uh able to actually uh fulfill the purposes uh thank you bankage I'm sure uh as in when the area of Interest increases uh this will be more areial photography banded aircrafts will be more viable technology to be used uh sh ran uh uh can you tell us about the use of unmanned aerial Vehicles as a surveying technology uh in The modern days yeah uh thank you sir and uh I am s Ram I represent Neo Geo I'm the CEO of

uh Neo Geo Technologies we have been using uh you know various kinds of unmanned uh you know vehicles for uh capturing the data from the field uh I think once uh you know the data needs to be captured at uh SC and we need to also capture the data very quickly at a very very high resolution uh we need to have uh these kind of uh uavs uh getting operated to Collect the data initially there is a lot of work that was happening with the satellite images and satellite images as we all know is uh

able to provide uh data till about 30 cm resolution and probably uh with some uh you know uses of the technology we could convert to around 15 cm HD data but to today when we are looking at the land records especially we are looking at data which is uh much more accurate so we need to capture data at around 3 to 5 cm GSD and Process it further so that the land record system is uh you know very accurate we have uh started using uh uavs for data capture and today we are doing one of

the largest uh projects where we are capturing around 50,000 plus square kilometers in Karnataka state where uh we could successfully uh fly fly and close uh we are generating uh DM and O using this uh you know unmanned uh vehicles and we have uh captured this data one of the uh Important things is that the data that is captured is very well and I would like to emphasize specifically on the positioning system that is required before we actually fly the drones which is the scores uh Network as we all understand we come to we'll come

to that okay so uh we have been using uh this technology and today I think it has become a very uh useful and the inevitable technology for mapping purposes when we are looking at very High resolution data especially in land records whether it is uh you know rural or Urban thank you uh in fact I didn't mention about the satellite imagery because uh uh the precise Precision required for urban landord is very very high even what we are providing today is centimeter level accuracy uh which is even or say 5 cm GSD resolution uh GSD

and 10 cm accuracy even this is not acceptable to many states so they say that they will go by 100% using GPS and Rowers so that's why I didn't mention uh use of high resolution satellite imagy uh for urban landord especially yeah thank you s now pank G page for the uh tell us about the Liars light detection and ranging as one of the techniques for surveying so I am pankaj fadar thank you General Girish sir good morning ladies and gentlemen uh my company has been into lar and photogrametry combo uh surveying since last uh

15 OD Years uh where lar comes into play is a direct measurement methodology be it from a manned platform or from a unmanned platform so where uracy is required all three three dimensions X Y and Z that's where lar comes into play while other Technologies very much are in uh required where Lark uh plays over other Technologies is to cover obscure areas under the uh vegetation that's where uh lar can Perfectly and exactly measure the ground points to the extent of 5 cm or even better if you uh fly even a little lower you can

get to below 5 cm accuracy measurements also and the recreation of the land the Xerox of the land which I am trying to create in digital domain I do believe that uh lar is the technology in combo with a photomat to create that 3D zerox thank you thank you panage yes lar definitely adds value where we have high vegetation cover thank you very Much uh Dr Ravi tell us about uh Global navigation satellite system gnss or Rovers along with the uh can be used with the CRS Network as a surveying technique because some of the

states have gone independently to uh map their land parcel only using gnss so tell us about this yeah good morning everyone I am Dr rumar from I Technologies and uh working in resurvey projects for last 15 years and uh it's a good point actually s Brought it out actually on the gns and the Cs based the measurements and the specifically for the Urban Land records environment and the Urban Land records scenario is totally different when compared to the rural that's why what we felt is because we need to measure the points on ground at a

specific uh location towards this what is happening is in urban segment with our experience is that we need to identify the exact boundary Point actually where the Property layer is there towards this if you use the technology syn with the Cs CS actually it is giving a very good accuracy it's a Well spread is there if required we need to extend into the particular City on a local basis if you go with the Rover the advantage is I can pick up the proper vertex this will be a supplementation to any other technical inputs either through

the uh obl photography or else with the the uh 3D feature extraction it will give a good Confidence to the public to accept the data because once we give the data there will be variations this challenge can be addressed using this uh supplementation of uh field survey verifications yeah uh thank you dror R bringing out very clearly clearly how the gnss can be used now prashan G uh I'll ask you a question about the tral uh modern technique that is the mobile mapping system uh including 3D laser scanning uh technique yeah thank you sir Uh

I'm Mr Prashant from Prashant advanc LLP a pun based company uh the roots of this companies uh are from Survey of India my founder the father was in Survey of India department for 24 years and uh we are having this company since 32 years so coming back to the question like uh mobile mapping uh we have mapped about 35,000 km of Highways we have mapped up 3,000 km of Railways and two defense airports in India and about 700 km in Saudi Arabia so we have done it Exclusively using the mobile mapping Technologies and uh the

the best part of it is uh how this change happened I just want to emphasize one fact that all these Technologies which we are speaking right now are good are having the merits and demerits as well so it is how you practice them like I just want to give an example how we shifted from Total session to the mobile mapping so I have seen the era of PL table survey my father used to do the chain and Compass Surveys then we came to the total sessions or the dumpy levels and the the lights and then

we came on to the mobile mapping and now of course the lar as well as the Drone based liar technology but the point is a person who is in the learning at the initial stage of mobile mapping he might make a lot of mistakes okay so a person we itself we were doing since 18 years we are doing total session and dgps Survey so we were very accurate we were very confident about Our outputs and deliveries but once we got the mobile mapping device we were saying oh my God what is this this is a

completely different device we have to understand in the initial stages you bound to make mistakes but then you have to overcome your mistakes learn how you made the mistakes and then improvise improvise improvise and improvise and then after some time after the learning curve meets the saturation you come to the stability Uh mode so that's why my uh different view is all these three Technologies having their plus and minus points just like the lar instrument which we experience like mobile mapping the NAD cameras or the oblique cameras NAD is meant for low height and plain

areas the obl cameras for high know buildings with like Mumbai or something tall buildings and of course liar with obl cameras for the you know Himalayas or you know H Terin so you have to understand the Benefits of each of them and as well as you can utilize them appropriately for the appropriate cities as like K already mentioned to us thank you very much thank you Prashant I could see smile on your face when I ask this question and uh uh in addition to answering the question he has summarized also that no technique is perfect

and we need to use uh uh in combination of each other uh that was the main point to discuss that we have many Technologies Available very many techniques available and no uh single technique will give you uh perfect solution so we need to uh on the need basis we need to work with the various Technologies so now uh we come to the second round of question for pankaj Mishra G uh Ser of India has taken uh great initiative in establishing uh positioning infrastructure in the country and uh also in horizontal and vertical both so my

question is do we Need to augment this existing infrastructure uh horizontal as well as vertical for urban mapping activities or it is educate yes I think it's very pertinent uh because the existing uh CRS infrastructure which has been uh uh inst installed uh and which has been established by Survey of India the the first uh sir objective of of completing the entire country with the CRS network was to actually make sure that CRS Coverage is there across the country and the uh first phase whatever densification has H happened or whatever like uh line distances are

there uh they are in general uh to cover uh most of the like productive areas but when it comes to I think Urban surveys uh it this is always there in the plan that it'll be argumented in future as per the specific requirements of the uh surveys across the country so it might not be uh uh confined to only the urban areas it Might be uh required in some of the infrastructure development kind of activities where the argumentation would be required it is very much there there on the card like uh this this particular require

government assessment is happening but to start with let's say in the in the pilot phase right now uh it'll be done with the existing uh CRS infrastructure but uh we are also expecting that whatever uh like challenges we'll have in terms of Because there are different uh uh at different kind of surveying activities we require CRS Network to be utilized So based on whatever learnings we'll have in terms of challenges what we'll be facing in doing all these pilot activities the the strategy for argumenting the CS network will definitely be it'll be uh uh executed

accordingly right what about GID yeah vertical uh it's vertical will be going like there is already uh as per The national geospatial policy uh there there is a target for for uh completing the vertical frame uh uh related activities and uh as per that uh uh the all the activities are going on as per plan so as far as the vertical is concerned that is the availability of the geid model for for all these areas definitely the the uh geid model deliveries are are being prioritized as per the uh requirement uh in the pilot and

in the all these kind of City Service otherwise in general also as for the uh plan uh the geod model development for various states where it has not been completed and published it is going on uh one in continuation sorry for keeping you on hold uh if you can tell our audience that uh how this Services can be used by them because most of them most of the states will be initiating this Naka program so and CRS will be there so me they may not be aware so how this CRS Network as well as The

Jed how the services can be availed by them so uh we have created a interface for for uh you utilizing the CRS services and uh we have a uh uh like uh dedicated directorate at dadun which is getic and research band that is uh actually uh looking after and the handling this entire uh uh horizontal as well the as well as the vertical uh uh frame and the uh infrastructure related activities so uh the whether it is uh a requirement related with the godod model Or it is a requirement uh related with the availing the

CRS Services whatever service like uh you wanted to Avail uh that is the directorate and the there is a CRS service portal through which you can actually Avail all those services and you can subscribe for it in fact for government uh users it is it is uh uh free of cost so all government users for that matter for any kind of activity if you wanted to make use of this position infrastructure and services even the Realtime services so you just need to approach uh through that CRS service portal to the uh geodetic and research PR

directorate and uh and and like whatever facilitation you require uh in terms of of uses of these things they will be extending thank you panage CRS Network as on today I think 1,000 plus stations are already uh commissioned and uh anyone can use it and it will give you result within uh one or two minutes Precise 2 CMS uh I have one more question for you but I'll come back to you later on regarding uh vbi but okay Shan uh cadastral mapping is a challenging task what challenges are expected based on your experience on such

mapping task especially for urban areas yes uh I know with the kind of experience that we have in actually doing a lot of uh property tax projects in urban areas where we have mapped uh the entire cities and also collected Data and created Property Tax applications I would like to specifically talk about a few challenges that we are going to face in this uh particular project the first one is uh already uh Mr pank s has talked about uh the Cs while we are transferring the Cs coordinates to a particular City we may be required

to transfer uh a point for almost say 20 30 odd kilometers that might uh take time of course that is one Thing which will be there the property tax records that are there with the municipal authorities there are already a complete record and this record is being used to collect the taxes and this data is being seen as an authentic data but while we have done many projects we have seen that many of these records are not true and there has been a lot of change in the field and that has not been recorded into

the municipal authorities records so while we are Doing this project and trying to link the property tax data to this dat this uh 3D data that we are creating using uh all these three methods that are defined there will be a lot of challenge for the uh authorities as well as the people who are going to do it the second uh aspect of it is uh the Rob that we are going to use to actually measure uh you know the area which will be comparing and we will be actually using it in addition to the

3D dat that we are uh going to create uh That accuracy levels because we are working in an urban area and while taking any of these points with rowers it is going to be uh very difficult when you use a rower which is a course-based Rover in uh you know plane areas Fields uh it gives very good accuracy it also depends on how far that project is from uh an existing CS so I think the second thing that uh uh the problem that we will face is uh while doing this uh you know survey using

the Rovers the other Thing I would like to mention though it is not the technical thing but I think r on date the infrastructure that is required uh to use this uh 3D data that we are creating using any of these methods the required infrastructure and the required cap ility may not be available with the states and specifically the municipal authorities and today we are seeing for each square kilometer we are generating a data about 30 GB 40 GB and uh when multiple uh such Data sets are there working with the data is going to

be a very very difficult uh Challenge and if we have to do this entire project in one year I think the preparations for establishing that kind of a data centers establishing and training people uh the the RIS who are actually reluctant to do this kind of a property survey we have seen how much resistance uh you actually uh see when you do a property tax project in a in a city though we have done in many Cities and these give a lot of very good result in terms of Revenue so I think these are some

of the challenges that we need to address uh to make this project nak successful thank youl it it looks like my paper has been leaked you Pi we EXP for 20 years you picked up my second question also okay thank you uh thank you uh Dr Ravi sorry pank G pank for the uh quality assurance and quality control Are two big challenges uh which any uh surveying project faces so what do you think that QA QC for acceptance of data uh and what are the anticipated challenges you think for the purpose of qaqc I definitely

believe that uh the tender document itself or whichever document must bring out what is going to be checked in the deliverables each of the deliverables otherwise when we go to various States uh as uh shamam put it the training levels are what they are in each state the officials who are checking the data they go by different parameters based on their own experiences and that leads to a lot of trouble during the qual acceptance of the data forget the officials even the teams which are checking within the companies after we collect the data they check

as per their own experiences there is no sort of a checklist on if I have Met these 10 criterias in an image or in a lar image or in a Ortho interspect with ladar as well these are the following 10 tick marks I have to do to make my image acceptable this is one issue which is a major problem which we Face uh wherever we go go for Quality Acceptance of data be it imagery be it lar so our request would be let it be coming as a part of the tender and let it be

coming as a part of the training of the officials who have to check the Data that is where I think we will the twain shall meet and uh both the quality checks shall be very clear while we may you know using an aerial aircraft capture imagery within say 200 square kilometers in a day process it and within a month submit it we find that the quality check itself at our end and at the client end takes 8 months 9 months even a year at times and then you know both parties are reticent to accept their

fault whoevers it is so best thing Is that it we made a bit of a mathematical process where the checks are done as per a particular list and not left to the imagination this is one of the greatest challenges we face second is uh in land records kind of a work where we also superimpose Revenue Maps as sham put it I would fully agree with him the data may be of 1925 some cloth map while it is reasonably fitting into today's environment as well but there are lines which are to be Stretched left right or

Center somewhere to you know change the area and there is photographic evidence that a particular plot of land has a Bund or a boundary or a fence which is existing today on ground as per the technological intervention it is measuring something but in the records it may be measuring plus minus something so we need to definitely uh lay out also that what amount of plus minus is acceptable as a digitization check on these uh imageries Or liar data or whatever we digitize so that the agency who has done the work is thereafter uh you know

they move on unless there is a major change with the data post the resurvey if you want to do it better job the agency can be brought back the RFP itself can build in a clause where the agency has a uh ability to be brought back and once the resurvey data is ready to red digitize whatever Portions are uh going beyond that tolerance limit I think these two actions itself would uh do a lot of good to the project speed at which it needs to be uh completed thank you bankage I fully endorse your views

that uh deliverables and the way the deliverables would be checked by the agency they need to be very clearly uh spelled out to avoid any discrepancy and uh uh it really um hurts the company when Their payments are delayed so I'm sure of course this is not a pre-bid meeting but I'm sure Ser of India would have taken care of that Dr RI sir uh what kind of data processing challenges we would have in uh 3D mapping of urban areas the Naka program which has been uh launched by DLR uh involves 3D data extraction sir

the challenge is actually now the department try to check with all the methodologist and uh just I requested The uh uh this ge special media as well as D our we set up our system there with all the three Technologies data sets are there and we are showing some live data there so that actually people can see that how it is going to affect the fundamental principle in Urban Land records what we felt is actually the initial acquisition itself we need to take enough of care second thing is when we are processing the controls actually

the ground control Network actually should be a stabilized and clear Ground Control Network use any technology J this oblique or else on the liar basedi or regular the point is our Ground Control should be 100% perfect so that whatever we are measuring it will sit onto the framework second the measurements the measurements what is happening the big challenges in the arban segment where we are having the vertical separations and the horizontal separations this is a very important Topic here because in the the property ownership in the urban environment we are having the horizontal ownerships also

there apart from the vertical vertical ownership is on uh laying out of the multiple uh group houses as well as if at all there is Apartments we need to address that challenge also as a horizonal operation for this towards this what will happen is we need to have a clear height enir height definition then only we can separate them and Already s already mentioned that the revenue versus the municipal Administration the Big Challenge here itself is the the land record department that is the revenue department of the state is the custodian of the ownership data

the property tax information is into the municipal Administration that's a totally another department the another challenge here is when you are measuring the property tax there is a op sets as well as the vacant areas they will not Pose the taxes that's why the area will be less in the property tax enironment whereas here we are finalizing the ownership the ownership is on the open areas as well as on the builtup areas because of this change actually what will happen is we also needs to change our mindset we are not doing a property tax mapping

here we are doing a ownership setup ownership setup will come on the boundary and if at all it is a vertical rise we need to have the hor Horizontal separation towards this we need to create a sop sir the SOP will evolve actually based on these Pilots uh thank you Dr RI um Prashant yes sir what are the practical challenges in Indian context in high resolution Urban mapping based on your experience yeah see uh it's a very good question in fact uh because the challenges for urban mapping in India uh you can take it as

a you know ideal situation because India is having Geographic location huge Geographic extent and it's having a plane all types of terrains think of veget vegetation you have dense forest dense jungle with of course high altitude um you know Himalayas and all so it's a very complex situation and the task itself like um the you know uh the tender which has been floated for pilot itself is of 150 vill 150 cities so I said who does it for 150 cities it's a pilot so first of All it's took why didn't they do it only for

four cities and eight cities and finish it off and find out what are the findings and then roll on the big project but when I came to know that the actual you know size of the project is 5,000 cities and that is why they have chosen 150 as a pilot then I said then okay it's India it only happens in India so so the challenges here in um Urban context is like the technology first of all you are all learning like We now nobody knows like which technology is good for what of course we have

a ballp pond figure but after this uh you know pilot project will be done and when the results will be out and the outcomes will be there then we'll be in a better commanding position to know what are the drawbacks of each Technologies what are the advantages and what technology can be used in combination with what I'm talking about the hybrid technology maybe we can use a Hybrid scenario also as well technology 1 plus two for some cities not only one separately for one city two separately for one city and three separated for some certain

cities we can use after this I'm talking about hybrid means in the outskirts you can use technology one in the center you can use obl or some portion can be done by lar so there can be a mi mix mix and match probability also for big cities so that is my uh contest and my request for the Government Department to don't focus on only one city and one technology you can make a mix and a match and come up with a very good alternative as well thank you pan very good suggestion I think uh many

states will and D will take uh a note of your suggestion thank you sir okay we go to third round uh panage adoption of latest technology solution is a challenge in workflows how we are planning to handle it in this project to ensure that this Is completed on time sir adoption of technology is a big challenge actually uh a technology availability is not a challenge technology availability is there and uh lot of Technology Solutions are there so adoption requires a lot of capacity building uh capacity building uh uh with with uh both the uh stakeholder

like uh uh you need to build the capacity with the uh user also like Dr R was telling that Q uh pun F was telling about the Qaqc part you have to build the capacity at the uh let's say government side also where acceptance is going to be there the right kind of understanding uh at a higher level uh where the uh overall strategy or the process uh will be actually defined and implemented and you need to develop the capacity at the at the execution level where uh people will be actually uh checking the data

they will be carrying out the qqc and uh they uh they need to be uh They need to be skilled for that particular role now that is is a a big challenge because in the in the when it comes to let's say industry Partners so uh they have they are better place to handle the skill upgradation part but here uh in the government side we need to actually untrain and retrain people which is very challenging and but the the fact is if you really don't do it properly then uh the ultimate success uh of the

of the project is it depends upon Uh that very key uh Factor like uh Mr pank was telling it takes a lot of time to do the acceptance itself even if you have captured and processed something so I think uh when we talk about adoption we have to be very clear uh with respect to how uh these these uh technical uh work stages needs to be ingested into our production uh processes and then what kind of capacities needs to be built for for handling uh these these uh uh these activities uh at on part of

Both the stakeholders so that overall work actually it progresses smoothly and uh this is this is going to be challenging and we are uh based on the experiences we had with respect to uh the SW handling the swamit project and adopting the drones as a survey so those those learnings uh would be actually applied and uh the kind of uh like learnings we had uh in in in terms of implementing other National level projects and the kind of challenges we Had faed So based on all these learnings uh uh it'll be actually uh doing the

capacity building uh uh in tendem with the uh the production uh like uh preparation which is happening so so that people are ready uh for that particular role which they need to perform whether it is with respect to making some approvals or uh or with respect to doing some sort of qqc or even with respect to let's say checking the plans uh uh for for executing the Work at various stages so I think this is uh going to be challenging but uh we are also uh we have uh we we we have the anticipated like

list of all these kind of challenges and we are working on it yeah thank you panage in fact you very well brought out that uh uh technology adoption in swamit just to add on to what pank said that uh in in 2018 or so 18 and 19 a drone was nowhere being used in India as a technology or tool for mapping and when we started uh Introducing this we had lot of uh problem within the department because people were not trained to handle this they were using conventional methods so somehow we motivated them trained them

and we had our own internal Pilots no external agency and really appreciate uh the staff that they in spite of uh having age and experience they still adopted the Drone as a technology and I remember uh in when we were having first meeting with the honorable Minister Regarding swamit implementation and the first objection came from D only that drone is not a approved technology for mapping and today the dolr themselves are advocating A B C all drone drone drone so adoption of Technology with the time is very very important but we need to be very

very careful in accepting that and ensuring that whatever technology you adopt is very very suitable for a particular task uh we move on to the next question to Shan G Of course partially you have already answered but still I'll ask do you think gtic capabilities are there in the industry Partners as they are required to execute this high resolution mapping projects and if not then what is to be done sir I'm very happy you asked this question because uh I also wear another hat that is senior vice president of AGI that is Association of geospatial

Industries where we represent the entire industry and try to work towards Betterment of the industry the capabilities are there yes the capabilities are there for mapping this and all the three technologies that have been um you know given as a uh test case for piloting so that we arrive at the right technology I think the industry is well equipped to do this um and the only issue that comes in I mean I have asked this question to many people though I am digressing slightly from technical side to the commercial Side please pardon me here we

have 150 towns and there are 30 people who are buying for this right now so if each of you is given five cities it is enough work and tomorrow we have thousand cities and if there are even 00 companies buying for this 10 cities for each is enough work if you are looking at 5,000 towns it is enough work the the kind of projects that we have because it's a large uh volume that needs to be addressed the capacities need to be Built today what we are doing unfortunately is that we are uh running after

the business in such a way that our pricing and our uh Things Are in in a different manner as to what the government is looking at the industry is not able to build further capacity both in terms of the number of people coming in as well as the technological advancement in terms of R&D uh if I if I say one very very uh paradoxical thing there is no uh Availability of Manpower which is trained which can be deployed in this projects directly where we can hire but the Institute says that we have people who are

trained but there is no company coming and hiring these people the Paradox is coming because we are not able to offer good money to these people who want to come into this uh particular field so the industry has a responsibility to build this technology as a uh we all know that this is a very Very crucial technology this is something which the nation is going to be built on I mean we should be proud that we are geospatial and this is the most important technology for taking this F forward but this realization should come that

we have uh 3 million square kilometers of the land and the NGP has said so many foundational layers need to be built Naka project swamit project LSM project LSM project is still in very nent stages the entire uh Country has to be mapped so uh my point is that sir the capability is there the technical technology is there like s said adoption is the key for adopting this technology do we have the right Manpower are we able to attract the right manpower to take such huge uh mapping activities Unfortunately today we don't I think it

is on all of us to think about this problem and address this thereby we will be building the capacity both technically as well as in Terms of the number of people required like uh Kunal G was saying that we are all scampering for surve right now inherently the problem is we end up being 15,000 rupees to a surveyor then nobody is going to come into this industry so I think we all have uh something to ponder upon this and uh look at this problem very seriously because we have a huge opportunity in terms of uh

you know the numbers I mean like each project each uh initiative That the government is taking is really really vast so we need to look on this I think uh yeah thank you sir I think we need to bring uh MSP in geospatial Industry also minimum salary package abely fully agreement uh pank g a data capturing using different Technology Solutions require edate capacity we're talking about the data capturing okay capacity to deliver do we have adequate capacity in the Country honestly speaking an upfront answer is no uh hon I have to be very honest about

it it is no now does the industry the question is that uh does the industry have the ability to scale up I believe yes but what does the industry need to scale up industry needs a forecast a view over next 5 years maybe 10 years if not 10 okay let it be five we need a view that over next 5 years this is the job you are going to Perform 100% % so then the industry is ready to invest the data capturing instruments the data capturing Vehicles come at a very high cost if I have

to go for a simplistic uh liar plus camera and a aircraft it costs me a total of about 20 crores landed once I get it so if I have to invest into four aircrafts to increase my capacity four sets of instruments it takes me to 80 CR if I have to get into A oblique camera it costs me about 20 crores One camera so if I have to invest that much of money maybe 100 crores I am ready to do that provided I have some amount of forecast available to me that I'm going to get

this job it's not only about uh investing into capex again it's the manpow do I have the manpow trained in the country to use now what is happening is again I'll be a little more forthright in saying this a surveyor who is hired Straight from the company I make him into a aerial instrument operator he's doing nothing uh very Earth shattering is ultimately just operating an instrument and operating it well so I give him say 25,000 rupees moment he gets stained a little due to pity within the companies itself poaching begins and the surveyor is

making a monkey out of 10 big companies because he's shifting every 6 months he's shifting every 8 months you can't Stop him so there's a lack of training so if you have to build this training capacity pay them adequate money so that they do not run around every every uh you know country around the entire country through companies we have to build that capacity the industry itself would like to build that capacity no doubts about it but then we have to understand that it takes money it takes uh Investments to build that capacity for that

we would like a bit of a Medium-term long-term Vision on uh assured work over next 5 years or 10 years uh thank you page I think very relevant points you made that unless there's a demand and educate forast that definitely nobody is going to spend money and keep things idle yeah definitely and I think over the last I think last five 3 4 years uh sensitization has been done that use of of geospatial technology is must and government of India in any case is Giving a big big push and our honorable prime minister his dream

of digital India involving including GEOS special is going to be uh lasting long and I'll request all industry Partners to start investing now this is the right time to buy uh GEOS special products Dr RI sir uh have we really evolved checking processes for urban mapping activities if not then can you suggest some measures to be taken for the next Program QC yeah uh QC at uh two levels sir one is on the uh positional accuracies that is on the XY coordinate and the height that is a j second one is we need to uh

another biggest challenge actually the inputs what we are receiving sometimes what will happened is because of the uh if you use any automatic processing because in the urban en en onment what will happen is each and every facet on the building actually on the rooftop or Else on the periphery is very much Essential important objects if you use any automatic process there is every chance we'll miss them towards this what we need to have a check list at the imagery level whether the image is complete or we captured all the facets second one can we

get the positional accuracies third one is once we are doing the feature extraction actually the feature extraction is for the purpose of the Uh land records that is the Urban Land records yes that is the boundaries that layer we need to specify after that we need to specify the features related to the uh property tax we need to have a hierarchial uh feature extraction system so that at every level we can introduce a QC check measures apart from that we can develop certain tools whether we are actually Meeting those requirement so that we can compare

both things here I think artificial intelligence like some Of the tools which we need to which will really uh really help us in the processing time thank you Dr uh pan G yes sir uh before I ask question I'll just tell the background uh uh before 2000 uh Ser of India used to make Maps using uh ADL photographs and uh using old machines and totally the feature extraction used to be in 3D now the output used to be 2D because the Machines were analog but the procedure was 3D only that through stereo you reconstruct a

feature reconstruct the terrain and then do the feature extraction but from 2000 onwards because it was a very manual and laborious task so Ser India was lagging behind in mapping the entire country then the satellite imagy people came in and they provided easy solution um so every started everybody started accepting adopting High regation satellite imagery As a mapping tool so we lost 3D feature extraction in between because it's a laborious timeconsuming and th very very precise so I'm very happy that Naka program involves 3D feature extraction because land is very very costly and we need

to map it very precisely now the question yes sir feature extraction in 3D has not been in practice for some time do you see challenges in this activity are you really geared up yes yes of course nice Question uh before I you speak about that um know background part uh surve of India is having a really really good background in uh 3D mapping as well because my father retired in 1997 and before retirement he has already operated on the wild machine W machine which is in completely manual and in 3D AO triangulation everything and doing

the stero plotting using feet hands and everything so I know he used to tell me that it's a very you know you have to Use all your brain hands and everything and what are you doing I he's saying I'm doing stereo mapping all right so that was the days those are the days when s used to do the stereo mapping and now what has happened only you have got more sophisticated instruments you have got more sophisticated tools and you you have got more software softwares available with you okay so I don't want to be biased

unbiased to any of the softwares there are a lot of softwares Available in Industry as on date okay the only thing is that we are talking about capacity building and training okay so you have to have an educate knowledge information and training to use appropriately use these softwares and Hardwares and tools to do the 3D feature extraction properly now of course we are doing 3D feature extraction using some softwares which are already provided by the uh instrument provider okay now does that Mean that it will be 100% useful in some parts it'll be useful but

due to the requirement of this new technology like 3D feature extraction to such a great extent of course you have to have a lot of capacity building you have to have lot of training intensive training programs and find out a best possible sop or the standard operating procedure which can optimize the resources you have to optimize now the only concept key concept here is optimization okay There might be one two three methods to do that one method is taking a lot of Manpower one method is taking a lot of instruments or you know resources second

is taking a lot of time or something like that so you have to you have to optimize all these cost of course the third is the cost so you have to optimize all the three parameters in such a way that you come up with an ideal optimistic Sol solution whereas everything is minimized okay so that That gives a best uh possible solution I think for this project exra project yeah thank you pant uh for being precise see my job was very difficult because my panelist they are all experts in their domain and given opportunity on

this subject itself they can talk for one hour so controlling their emotions and passion I'm really grateful to all of you one more question for panage see now CRS has been establish by serve of India and uh it is state of art technology Many countries developing countries also have it of course you talked about documentation also uh but like in urban mapping we talk of millimeter level accuracy so do you think Ser of India is thinking to bring infrastructure uh to go for uh a millimeter level accuracy in terms of V vlbi or any other

technology sir in fact uh uh on this particular uh Point uh about uh really building the capacities at National level in the GOC uh a very big campaign is going on across the world this has been a challenge across the world uh where the uh the kind of uh uh infrastructure geodetic infrastructure uh which has become very old uh uh and that's what uh uh the expert says and uh this needs to be occumed uh particularly to to uh make sure that all our reference frames are in in in in place so as far as

Indian context is there so there there had been discussions with respect to setting up a Vbi and I think uh uh this is what is expected from the global Community also like as part of the geodetic infrastructure at the global level how actively we can actually uh be contribute to it and be part of it and in when we really uh uh argument our our our this core geodetic infrastructure in line with what is the requirement at the global level definitely we can argument uh our our uh reference uh systems also to to higher and

higher accuracies Actually so that way uh I think already uh with respect to the uh the the kind of slrs uh setups or LBI setups there are discussions going on in fact a big campaign is going on across the world and they are approaching uh there is a uh there is a center at the Germany which has been established by un ggm uh to address the geodetic uh requirements uh uh uh in terms of infrastructure across the world so uh that is already that campaign is already going on and uh There's no doubt like the

kind of requirement we have in in in uh if we see from the future perspective for high definition mapping kind of things so we'll be uh we will have have to aument it and upgrade it in line with uh uh what what uh the global practices are there and if you really wanted to achieve that uh higher accuracy levels uh thank you very much panage so that uh uh we can expect in future millimeter level accuracy even when we want to Adopt any other technology like autonomous vehicle driving and uh motor driving and other activities

so with this uh since time is uh the always started 25 minutes late but we are finishing on time and I'll yeah yeah I'm coming uh still we'll take few questions yeah please uh give us five minutes please is right just want to know when we are talking about technology I think we talk More about the data capturing and data processing I think the land records also needs to be in terms of digitalization I think we have to look at a blockchain is the technology which is a tamper proof and a single source of Truth

and if this into end is not seen most of your litigations I think it was mentioned in the opening remark the most of your litigations on the land records is because and everybody has the one land but many many records are there Everybody says I'm the owner I think the biggest challenge will be to how do we integrate the blockchain technology which is a tamper proof a single source of Truth and uh make sure that the end to end technology is applied just wanted to share this I think we cannot miss out that I think

since we are doing a PO now I think this is where we need to start that requires a tremendous amount of people and talent pull because I don't Think you have many PE you don't Mass available in the blockchain it requires a lot of training people from the academics we need to train that it's a very very massive work otherwise you know we win the war and lose the battle just wanted to very relevant and very important question and though we have not discussed in this session because there are many other we have more sessions

also because all other issues cannot be discussed within one hour but It's very relevant point and we need to government of India also and the Academia also need to work on this thank you so much we'll take it note of this and we'll pass it on to the government yeah please can we hand over mic okay please introduce yourself and yeah I am Manar and I work with Sham sir in neoo so I think much of it is spoken but uh we do handle a lot of these land record urban and rural and all that

kind Of things sometimes I wonder that uh all these are being done by different different companies different people different Technologies different uh agency government agencies which are validating and all that are we creating a very heterogeneous kind of a map of India in some way and how do we homogenize that like if I have to take a couple of examples uh there are regulations that we cannot fly above 120 M or something like that in rone and try to capture but there is an argument that with higher resolution cameras you can get the ground uh

ground level measurements proper and all that so these kind of arguments are both the ways true and it is been pulled by that side and this side and finally and when let me also say this the local bodies which are validating all this information who are the who are our clients who uh that they do not have any Uh expertise on validating it and what will happen is what may happen I'm uh envisaging and then where we may have a challenge is that even like Naka and all if we do it 5 years down the

line everything may have to be redone again because you have such a mosaic of uh uh data which has been prepared by multiple companies multiple Technologies multiple validating agencies and uh thank you I got your point uh see this is where we discuss One of the point qaqc that is one because we need to ensure standards if we if you can enforce standards then this problem won't come regarding drone flying five five years back there was you couldn't even fly one meter also now at least government has given you 120 M and slowly and slowly

as the with the experience and with the technology with other safeguards once they convinced government will allow you to fly higher also I think that is a policy issue not Technological issue yes sir so I think there will be other sessions also those will be debating about other things also I think one noted your point one point I will please one last I think because we are see like sanj mentioned we have 30 speakers okay okay so we need to follow some discipline in timing also but we can discuss over cup of tea okay sir

yeah any other question I think uh with this if you anyone you have any question we can Discuss over a cup of tea can I just I think harmonization I think CS has to be mandated in every geospatial project from now onwards because not only the accuracy it serves as the reference frame I think that needs to be done for making this data available for future generation very true course has to be mandated for every survey everything that is done in geospacial that is not being done I think sir I request surve of India to

actually Mandate this I think surve of India is this service provider like Naka program it is mandated in that the CRS has to be used uh so I I am sure slowly and slowly we'll keep debating and keep accepting or adopting new technologies so it will take time so at the end of it I'll convey my sincere thanks to all my fellow panelists for uh wonderful debate and discussion and giving us Insight on various technology and the team which Was given to us and at once again I thankful to dolr and Sanjay and his team

for giving me this opportunity to moderate this wonderful session thank you so much J J thank you 3D mach are available right through the day if you want you can see that actually the data we'll take a group photograph everyone we have a short networking break for half an hour I would request everyone to please join us back in half an hour for the next round Of panel discussion thank you had a great networking session I would request everyone at the back to please take your seats we are about to begin with the next set

of panel discussion thank you so much all right moving on to the next panel discussion it is going to be about data integration and harmonization the backbone of Urban Land records digitalization for this I would request The session chair Mr enk sudhansu IAS settlement commissioner government of Maharashtra and DJ yashida Pune to please join us on the stage uh and his fellow and his fellow panelist Mr Joshua Chief International and National engagement Branch geography division US Census Bureau USA Mr Chris Chambers deputy director geospatial commission UK Mr Uday Kumar ddg National informatics Center government of

India Mr Krishna ra general manager SV India Mr sandep go additional Project Director madhia Pradesh State Electronics Development Corporation limited government of madhia Pradesh and Dr vsss Kiran founder and CEO garu diale etics Mr sudhansu over to you uh do and go special world for not only organizing this uh Symposium but bringing forth uh an issue which is which was very important uh for a long time but was never brought to the four and in the next uh 10 15 15 years It is going to occupy uh at least in state government it is going

to occupy a lot of time of the administrators the last session was on mostly on the technical side so most of the technocrats were present here and this uh panel consists of not only technocrats but people from the policy domain and the administration so we'll have a discussion uh ranging from technology to uh policym and implementation of the schemes So we have a very uh distinguished uh panel here we have Mr uh Joshua uh from Census Bureau USA uh Mr Chris from us special commission UK uh Mr Uday Kumar uh from Nic GEOS special division

uh Mr Krishna from esri esri uh Dr sandep goyel from uh madha Pradesh and Dr vsss Kiran uh from uh grytics uh so this issue today at uh for this discussion for this panel is data integration and Harmonization uh the backbone of Urban Land record urbanization uh when I was coming and I was trying to think about this topic uh one thing which came into my mind as to why this is a situation now where uh in terms of digitization of land record the textual part we say and in the morning also satar has said

we all agree in India that we have made quite a rapid Advance where we have digitized the textual part of the record land Record however the cestal part is lagging and why why why is it so is it an issue of uh technology is it an issue of focus what is it so I was thinking I discussing uh with some of my colleagues and I could realize that it is not an issue of Technology it is not an issue of uh uh you know state governments or national governments putting focus on this it was just

the demand from the ground why why is it so because all the Transactions you know we were agriculture agriculture uh more uh having more agricultural lands so the transaction pressure was not there the monetization of lands that now we see in per urban areas and urban are was not there so even paper based or even the uh textual transactions textual data was sufficient now with a lot of urbanization a lot of monetization Need for monetization infrastructure projects a lot of Transactions start happening and as we do more more number of transactions the boundary disputes come

into picture and the more the boundary disputes come in picture more we need the maps creation of maps and validation of boundary was always very very uh time-taking and costly because it requires person surve technology on the ground however changes in the textual record can be done in the office you apply to some office maybe tatti or Patwari somewhere person takes into account some documents and does the transaction does the changes so that is how I think now with lot of urbanization we are in a situation where we need to move fast and today we

have technology in the first session we have already discussed that uh uh not only we have technology but we have policy support from the government of India and states are also moving uh very fast I am working in uh government Of Maharashtra and uh from the 1 of December this year we in Maharashtra are measuring and surveying every land now on from 1st of December based on CRS Network and uh Rovers so whatever we measure from now on and give as a result of it any map it'll be totally Geor referenced and with latitude and

longitude uploaded on our GIS portal available for people to not only see but get it downloaded with a digital signature so with this background uh let Let me invite uh Mr Uday Kumar first on with focus on uh what is it that government is uh doing and what the what are the plans that government has as of now at the country level to uh to bring this issue of geospatial technology in urban Administration or Urban Land Administration to the four and also support the states because uh support to the state is very Important state probably

all not all the states have uh the technology and they require a lot of handholding what is it that government of India is planning and doing s over the last 15 years uh Nic has been involved in uh digitizing the land records I won't say that it is J referencing but it is digitizing the land records and wherever the uh ge referencing has been attempted like in AP where they have started off Just now reorganization that is also being used and Baka our software which is being implemented across 20 states it is being used for

looking at the land parcel where it is and how it is second thing in the de project which n attempted is the creation of Alpin unique land parcel information that is a very Unique way of identifying a land you give any coordinates polygon once it is Geor referenced of course once it is Geor referenced you can locate it on the map so we have done you can also do a reverse you have a KML you can get Ain you have Alpin you can locate it on a map so that I think that will be the

basis for data harmonization going forward so we have a 2din which is already in place and once States G for Land Cs and do G fencing then every land parcel will have a Alpin 2D Alpin then once Naka project comes we'll be working on creating a 3D Alpin which can be extended to the third dimension so work has has to start and we'll be initiating that and that will be one major step forward we look forward Naka is a very revolutionary step as far as Urban Land records are concerned And we fully support the program

and we extend all our support to do for whatever extent it is required uh thank you but a followup question on this because we have seen we have been using all of us know about buaka portal and now we have seen uh swamit Maps being uploaded and being used in various portals now with Naka project coming in uh all these three are coming from the states and there's always a discrepancy which we have in Maharastra also faced how do you sync it with uh maps from other States and within Maharashtra also or within State also

we have data relating to Cal map as well as in the RO coming from various departments so what are the challenges that you face uh handling the maps GE referencing there is really a quite a challenge and uh there is a concept called hold to part approach where you limit the error within a village whatever error is Happening so that harmonization can take place we have integrated I have done a small POC for do where we have integrated uh that is called matumi where we have integrated data from different sources which is a GE reference

data we brought from Bihar we have got data from Gujarat and all these places we have got and we have integrated we have seen that fine there are problems which I think it is more to be tackled at the State level rather than at our level but you can once you have complete understanding of this approach of hold to part you and limiting the error to a village when you mic it and GE reference it you can achieve good my harmonization of data thank you uh Mr uh Joshua uh can we know from your experience

uh how do you handle uh data relating to land records in your uh uh in your uh organization thank You yeah so I'm um a geographer with the US Census Bureau so I'm a uh within a statistical body so I'm really coming at this from a different perspective than than many of the conversations that we've had so far so not from uh technical geospatial positional uh reference but using the data as a reference as a data user and as a secondary aggregator so using it as a reference um and we have a similar System in

the United States in terms of a Federated system where States create the data localities create the data and at the federal level we're aggregating that up into a single unified National data set which so we have very similar challenges um and it that that aggregation that creating the national frame uh I'm glad that we're speaking about this now because um one of the things that we have found is just how uh Forgive the phrase but how ruthlessly you need to enforce standards across the board uh and that's for everyone sake um and I see us

at the federal level at the US Census Bureau when data is provided to us uh that we really need to strongly uh create that standard framework communicate it to our our data producers our our data Partners at the state and local level and then make sure that they're adhering to those standards so we we you know help at an advisory and And standard setting uh level uh so um but I'm glad earlier the distinguished secretary Kunal um mentioned metadata in his comments and that is crucial I know we've spoken a lot this morning about positional

accuracy uh enforcing positional accuracy and all the different methodologies and Technologies um but along with that is the metadata um because with all due respect It without the metadata without that information about that parcel or that boundary it simply lines on a map and so you need that metadata you need all that those administrative records that link through to that that unit that partiel of land and that's what really unlocks the value and so we at the Census Bureau we see that um as the link between the surveys and Census Data the demographic data the

economic data that we collect and the point on the ground That's where that link happens is at that parcel level whether it's the centroid whether it's a building identifier that's where that link happens that unlocks that value and uh as someone who has worked with other administrative records other data sets from other uh urban planning and again States cities um you know that strict enforcement of metadata at the very granular level is what allows you to then unlock the power of go AI that We've talked about about machine Learning Without that rigorous metadata uh a

lot of that is is not going to be realized and so while it can be very boring a different code and maybe the data format for that column and metadata that's what can be the make the critical difference whether you need to spend hundreds of Staff hours correcting and cleaning because one of your data providers didn't follow follow the metadata accurately uh and you know the Difference between just unlocking that and being able to to uh implement the GOI the machine learning whatever it is that you're trying to do with that data so with that

I'll conclude uh thank you but a follow-up question to you uh since you're handling a lot of data including the geospatial data uh do you have privacy issues uh transferring or uh you know handling the data transferring it to others maybe government bodies even showing it to People public yeah no we absolutely do and that is part of the um the uh integration of administrative records from other government agencies from public users from our public um one of the things that I can say that we're struggling with right now is from a geospatial perspective what

exactly is uh private what data should be private what is disclosive what is it needs to be private and what could be released and right now we have been struggling For some time because there was a a ruling uh some decades ago that addresses so just a building identifier is potentially disclosive and so we you know adhere to the policies and that that is the policy um but at the same time um we have been trying to work to uh explain to people outside of the geospatial community that you know simple position of a housing

unit is not necessarily disclosive it's the data Tied to it right the the demographic data the personally identifiable data of the people living there or you know of of each individual person there that's disclosive but the presence or absence of a housing unit or the address of that housing unit maybe we could rethink that so I that's something that I would submit is is again careful planning ahead of time you know thinking about uh how you're going to structure these things uh you Know how what what data needs to be held close and what can

be shared ahead of time and really thinking about how other data users will be using that data is is I think a critical discussion to have as early as possible in the process and get those you know your data producers and data users in the room to plan that out ahead of time as early as possible uh thank you a a quick uh uh discussion on this because we are also facing in India and especially in the states we Also face the same issue because we have developed the data and we have been doing transaction

of the data uh as it as we developed it meaning every state has its own uh system and within the state also we have different departments generating different data and now we are in the process of integrating all the data uh for example the property tax data the electricity data uh land record data and incumbrance related data everything is being integrated so now by Default by default what we show and which is available for everybody to see from the portal is anybody's land and related details when I say details it also includes map related details

and it will also wherever GE referencing has happened it will also include the uh coordinates Androids Etc all those details are there and since there is no uh I mean it depends a lot on interpretation there's no standard on uh what to collect and how to collect and How to share and what to share so by default today as of now uh probably we are uh exposing all the data that we are collecting we not be exposing to the public but we do not have a guideline so we are also struggling on on that issue

well if I if I could just very briefly just to uh in terms of metadata and and the need to set these standards and and a full understanding deep understanding across the board and I was working on a project where we were uh taking mortgage Records so um bank loan records and trying to integrate that into the census data and see what we could uh Harvest to to to get that together so there was a um an agreement that uh for the Housing and Urban Development data they had to collect the sex the of the

uh property owner and that's what we were interested in getting was the the sex um and there were some other uh government agencies that that we were looking at their data as well so there was a column that said Sex on that uh we were using male female or unknown another agency was using one two three to designate the same thing uh there was another agency that was using one two three but one was male and in the other uh Records one was female so we had such a time trying to harmonize this data and

there really wasn't good documentation for that and so just these simple things caused us hundreds of hours of of just calling people and having meetings And trying to figure this out and so anyway I just share that anecdote thank you uh coming to Mr Krish uh your experiences on uh GEOS special uh in GEOS special commission UK on uh handling the Urban Land records if you can focus on it yeah sure thank you so um I'm uh from the geospatial Commission in the UK which is uh the Central department for geospatial across the whole of

UK government and we're involved in policymaking but also uh Major interventions where there's market failure around geospatial so um really importantly for in the UK at the moment there is a big drive by the by the new government to get um to deliver 1.5 million new homes in uh in in the next 5 years uh so really around urbanization because uh the UK is a small place it feels very small compared to India uh and it's it's a very small place we haven't got much spare land so there are real challenges Around uh where we

should build what we should build so some people say put houses there some people say put wind farms there some people say put prisons there not many people say prisons but there's a difference in in in s of Demands on that land but the reason I say that is that it do is taking geospatial data really seriously at the minute because it sees the value that it brings so across government there are 100 projects which are seen as major Importance to the Prime Minister and three of those hundred across the whole of government are related

to this exact problem so there's there's one which uh which I lead which is called the National Underground asset register which I'll talk about in a in a in a bit more detail in a minute but that's developing a map of where all the pipes and cables are in the UK so all gas water telom sewage Etc the second is called the local land charges program And that's run by uh his Majesty's land registry they're the people that register the land and that's a massive digitization program where they're working across all local authorities to standardize

information about what is where because things like uh conservation areas things like uh s sites of special scientific interest are not captured in standard way across all the local authorities so um a really interesting standardization piece there And then the third one is called the digital planning program which is uh trying to streamline the process of uh identifying what you want to build or buy and where it is and uh getting people to actually buy it in a much shorter space of time so making all that data available digitally rather than having to send uh

letters to each other so um focusing on that on that on on my program the the national under own asset register um what we're doing is actually Taking data from 650 different organizations gas water electric Telco uh and local authorities uh and the only standard thing is that none of their data is standard it is all different it's captured in different processes it's stored in different standards it's been captured to different specifications it is an absolute mess but uh it's really valuable you know we've identified uh 500 million pounds a year of benefits From bringing

all that data into one place and making that securely accessible so a big big part of our work is actually not and we've we've taken a different approach to you we we haven't gone out and said capture your data to this standard what we've done is worked with uh the open geospatial Consortium to create a international standard for how that data should be stored so we've uh created a the the database that we've got uh which huge database uh and we've Created the new muddy model with the ogc and we're the first implementation of that

so what we have decided is we will take data in whatever format it's provided to us it is sometimes really really not nice but we take the data and we do the data transformation on the behalf of the asset owners to take it from that local hosting into the central repository the reason we did that was we didn't want to put a burden on the data providers to uh you know 650 of them Doing the data transformation and supplying it once it was really inefficient compared to us doing the the data transformation on their behalf

so we did those data standards um and uh we're really pleased with the with the with the results so far uh interestingly just to touch on maybe one of the points on on security we had a really good debate yesterday on open data in one of the forums the aec forums um because as Standard the UK government has taken in a position that data should be open however there are three places where data should not be open the first of which is personal data so you mentioned about uh you know personal data not being accessible

that's absolutely right that's the same in the UK you know so you we we don't publish People's Health Data we don't publish their wages Etc so we keep that data is not open even though we we might know it The second bit is actually for for security reasons so for example the the the national underr around asset register or new will never be open because there are there two significant risks the first is a risk to National Security from from the data falling into the wrong hands the second is because of commercial issues around telecommunications

wanting to see each other's data and trying to compete with each other so there's issues around sort Of security reasons and the third is actually around commercial purposes so data is valuable data is really valuable sometimes uh people sell data so we we have we have implemented a mixed model of of data licensing so some data in the UK is open fully open and when I say open I better just Define that it means open data for us means it's completely free and the user can use it for whatever they mean whatever they want that

is the only definition of Open data that we sort of recognize rather than free so we do some of our data as open but not everything some of the data is free so for example the same data might be available for free for Charities for small businesses but it comes with a license so they can't just pass it on to whoever they want to they can use it for certain purposes and the third area is is what we call Premium data where it's paid for so for example some data from Ordinance Survey who we we

oversee their work some data from ordinance is sellable and it sells to large companies large companies for for five six million pounds a year and what we do is we take that money from the big companies and we use it to reduce the cost of government capturing the data so it's a really interesting mixed model that we've developed over over the uh last eight years in the UK to try and and both you know uh make data accessible because it's most Valuable when it's used but also to to mitigate those personal data concerns the commercial

concerns and the National Security concerns so I suppose to to to summarize um geospatial data is seen as highly valuable in the UK at the minute especially in solving those Urban Land use uh issues and decisions um there are some uh data standards again to reiterate your point data standards is really critical there's a question about are the data standards at a local level Or a central level I think is a really interesting question and then making that data accessible I think we need to change the conversation from open or not open to it's you

know where on a pendulum does it sit and on that pendulum sometimes it'll be fully open sometimes it'll be fully closed other times it'll be nearer to close than open other times it'll be nearer to open than close at the minute it's it's too simplistic a Conversation that says it has to be open or it has to be closed and I think we need to change that narrative around how that data can then be used for the um for the the use of land use in in registration because you know we can't publish title information

as open data that would lead to real risks where people take land ownership take ownership of the property property you know uh via fraud and that that's not okay but nor should it be fully closed Because its valuable information uh thank you but is it uh is do you have a body or regulator or maybe a regulation which uh which dictates how this data flows who gets access to this data and not only for the uh JS special area but data flow will happen between any department on any other issues yeah lots a bit a

bit too much maybe I think what we uh we started our program the the national under asset register for Example with on a voluntary basis so we went to the asset owners and said give us your data please here are the benefits please get involved and we found that about 50% of them got got involved voluntarily um but we realized in order to to achieve those sort of significant benefits on an annual basis that legislation had to be brought in so um I was actually on um a teams call on Monday night where we had

our Minister Um baroness Jones was in the House of Lords laying legislation for this exact reason so it's a very live Topic at the minute that says you know government needs to have the data therefore you have to provide it to us rather than we want you to and government should be able to use it for whatever purpose it deems fit so I think voluntary participation gets you so far and it's a good place to start but actually when it's in the public interest to have a Complete data set that's current you need to have

that legislation because in the in the we we were having a conversation before you know it is not people's day job normally to collaborate you know their day job is normally focus on what on my individual profits on my individual objectives collaboration is sometimes you know 5% of someone's job so sometimes government I think you know more more and more regularly government needs to step in to make sure that Central government I should say step in to say well actually this is so important for the whole nation that we're going to legislate for it thank

you very interesting model because they started with volunt voluntarily sharing the data and then coming to legis legislate on the same issue uh uh Dr sandip goyel coming from madhya Pradesh a a lot of work being done in uh processing the data integration of various departments Especially Revenue related uh data uh in madh Pradesh happening now your comments yeah uh in fact before coming to this point uh with the permission of chair I would like to share two things and especially I want that uh we all should uh think of these two points which I

think which are very important uh so first is that uh in government we always talk about the governance and all in last 34 years of my journey We are talking about that uh government is responsing responsible for the governance this governance has changed to e-governance in the journey but most of the time it was a reactive governance a person is coming to me I'll see what can I do if I think I can do it but now the time is changed we are moving from reactive governance to proactive governance responsive governance that we need to

be proactively Think that what exactly we are going to deliver to the citizens number one and now from this proactive it is going to futuristic governance that down the line in next five years what should be the requirement of my citizens and what governance model model we should build that we should be able to C our citizens our people in a better way now coming to the second Point uh we are talking about the data harmonization and all the most Important thing is that the Legacy data what we are having since the Inception of the

uh country when we were uh we got the independence and we started the journey or rather before that if you talk about for last 200 years we are collecting a lot of data in various forms whether it is Maps text and all now that Legacy data do you think that with the modern Technologies we were discussing today in The first session is this Legacy data is going to be useless I don't think so only thing is that we need to find the ways that how we can really integrate this Legacy data uh how should we

harmonize this Legacy data with the modern Technologies which is the topic of this session and which is very important so uh now coming to uh your question sir these are the two thoughts Which I wanted to convey because we are focusing on this and while taking this as a moto when we started journey of integrating various data sources so most important was the Revenue data the cestry the land ownership Ro the property ownership and then various other systems for an example uh uh my energy department they delivering they are Distributing a lot of subsidies to

the electricity consumers so I got a problem from the Department that there are areas where the Posh Bungalows are there in the capital of MP but there are subsidies being delivered they are getting the uh benefit of the electric subsidies we tried to integrate both those two data even though it was a difficult task because there was no common factor by which we can integrate the property data and the consumer data both are the Legacy data it is available we have the property register available Now it is dissed we have also gone one step ahead

that we marked those properties on geospatial data we have the building Footprints and we have tagged the the uh building Footprints with the and linked with the property register but it is being by the used by the urban local bodies now we have the data of consumers electricity consumers we try to integrate them we took a small area and did that exercise and Surprisingly that out of 600 Bungalows or the properties in that area I won't say all the the bangalow 600 properties in that area where the cost of the property is very high in

Crowes 151 places properties we found that they are taking the electrical subsidy how and then the top level government structure my Additional Chief secretary himself went to the ground and checked those points and found that it is correct so this is the way of governance we now think for that how to really integrate various data sources to bring the model in such a way that the citizens who are eligible for something should not be deprived and those who are not eligible should not abuse the system and that is what is happening most of the places

morning uh uh konal sir was Talking about the registry systems and all we have recently launched uh a project called Sada 2.0 where we have integrated all this data this is very true that those uh we all know that uh since a child is born born in the country till the death of that person the child borns you register Goes to School get education get the job get the uh buy some property buy some vehicle you have got all the data available only Thing is that how to integrate that data how to harmonize that data

so in sadaa 2.0 and all the time we are asking the person okay you want to buy this uh vehicle give me your details give me this paper this paper this paper that paper why government has got all the data why not you validate I say that I'm this person now you validate that I'm this person and what are my Ownerships and what I am eligible for so we tried to integrate in several systems this way that the person declares that this this is the land property this is the property this is the land parcel

which I want to sell now the system should tell who is the owner what is the use of that land whether it is a empty land or it is a diverted land or it is a constructed land whether it is a building whatever it is but is a commercial residential The purpose of it and the valuation should be done by the system yes I will declare that my property value is this much I'm selling on this rate but but whether it is the correct rate or not the system should determine and that way we have

launch the system which is faceless and paperless all the validations are coming from different sources and it is fixing that this property is going to be transacted which belongs to X and Y is Buying and then this transaction is getting completed so this is how we need to yes challenges are there always there so we are talking about uh like uh Naka program which is launched by the uh uh do yes it is a difficult task I think all the state agencies including uh we at MP we are having sweats on our forehead and we

are uh going to start with trembling hands because lot of challenges are there but certainly at this point of time we need To take the lead because the urban property records have got lot of lot of challenges accuracy morning session people were discussing about the positional accuracy several type of systems yes there's no one solution which can be applied for all type of data collection and surveys we need to really do different type of uh uh uh integration of Technologies to to find a solution but yes the most important Thing is the challenges which are

there uh on ground those who will be doing the ground survey sir uh you said that uh textual data has been digitized but I'm telling you that the most of the or the biggest challenge is going to come in that textual data only map data you can we have the technology by which we can get very accurate data but when we we are integrating the textual data the record of rights that so my friend was telling That uh uh at Place uh it is uh written that this person XY Z and is a female but

on another record you are finding XY Z the same thing with the different sex this is just one small example we are having several such type of issues which we are going to face but we need to really find out that we need to study very carefully that what should be the schema what should be the key factors which we need to make the changes in our record of Rights what all Attributes we need to add in record of rights to really find out where we can challenge these issues and for that uh we need

to study various use cases and uh very carefully very carefully and critically also that we cannot say that uh what MP is done is very good or what uh Kerala is doing is excellent something we need to pick up from here something we need to pick up and third major challenge which we are going to face is okay uh we have We have to listen to other two just last thing sir uh because the data is stored in various languages so the translation or transliteration of the data also creates sometimes uh lot of uh you

know challenges recently uh just very funny example it is so uh one of my person uh picked up some information from uh one of the department uh portal and then placed it and uh It Was Written when I read that uh note it was written Measles I said measles in the data what it is so I found that because it was done in har so the Kasra we call the land parcel KAS KAS transliteration measles was done and that person published it and it was just published so this also happens so just uh uh I

just wanted to make everyone a little lighter mode but we need to working on Legacy data is an issue and that is how that is why uh rural Suit is going to be different or rather Urban suit is going to be Naka project is going to be totally different from what we did in U swamit uh Maharashtra by the way has uh uh a system of City survey and we know even though we resurvey the entire city as and when the survey gets born uh City gets born but we realize the issues that we face

and that's why even for a city survey small City takes tens of tens of years 8 9 10 15 years it takes so it's a Challenge uh now uh coming to Mr ra uh how how can we have uh systems or uh softwares which will lessen the issues that are faced by uh simple surveyors or officers or staff in the record department or in the revenue department especially focusing on the geospacial data yeah thank you sir uh good afternoon all uh there is very interesting coming back while I come back to answer you uh there

is very interesting thing which we have to Answer look in when when you look at this whole project you see there are various projects which have been done by various state governments and the source of data and the scale at which these things have been created all have been different right and schema level changes are there so in order to if you want to look at a data harmonization as a game in here we need to have a schema level where we have to create a very robust schema for the new project what we are

Thinking in where we have to harmonize all these data sets if you're not going to do at a schema level at a at a robust data model is not being built this is going to be another just like a project I think many of my my colleagues has spoken in here about the same so I think the root cause and the root thing is we should hit at that data model once you harmonize all of that at that schema level I think the next things becomes a quite very easy one and that and schema Is

not going to happen over a day or two it needs a lot of brainstorming because it is again not harmonized across every state every state has followed their own standards so I was just talking to Sir to that and then I think a good step has been taken to derive at a standardization of this so that now everybody at a policy level can standardize this so now coming to the tools basically you know when you choose a technology you should be very wise Enough in choosing the technology so typically we see in government that cost

is the only Factor where mostly it is being taken in but I think you should look at the capabilities of what the softwares can bring see one wrong of Technology can lead to a big disaster I'm sure you would have seen in last three months some of the major corporates and some state governments landed in a major vulnerability what happened and you know what the Technology was used and why it happened and that led to it and you know there was also a bargain happened that you need to pay the money in form of Bitcoins

Bitcoins to get your data released so that's the kind of thing so a choice of Technology should be very WIS which should be like the topic was discussed about cyber security so when you're choosing this technology is this cyber security aware are those all those places are things are there are not and Efficiently when you look at uh the tools when need for this particular project this should be very handy I think uh we should think more on like what are those rmade tools in the market instead of getting into development and then the development

cycle itself will take away a lot of your time you should think in for those technology which are readily Deployable so that you can start your work and of course uh they're all well vetted for the cyber security and Other issues so that's why I think you should be very wise enough to select the GEOS special tools and definitely you need to maintain Open Standards otherwise you know data interchange and all of those things will not happen thank you uh uh Dr Kieran uh I'm sure you are uh doing a lot of data crunching uh

and use of a IML uh state governments particularly lack this skill and also the resources In India uh how do you think uh you or companies and vendors like you can bring value to uh this issue with the state governments uh thanks sir so I just put in the two ways um first regarding the it's true the lack of resources the Manpower which has raised by the previous panels also to fulfill that the automation is very important okay that for the the last year there two hug case I could put here uh where we tried

to implement The Automation in one of the state to reduce the uh the Manpower for these LPM Generations or the stone map Travers Map different Maps the set of maps we have to generate uh to before to uh get the property ownership certificate we should disperse and that usually uh the single surveyor can take 5 to six days to complete one single landf part that's the one of the different toughest Challenge and another thing the data come to the different sources because The ORS comes from the different vendors than the the other uh the important

information coming from the maps from the bua portal to integrate all those things and generating that is one of the major Challenge and the huge surveyor of the people on the ground the user friendly application and people should adopt that when they have to generate the map that is one of the again an important challenge to brid this Gap um initially it's a very tough challenge we Got the lot of Errors the accuracy was very less 60 70% but somewhere we have reached to more than 98% accuracy to generate those maps and we reduce this

five uh days to six days manpower to just 5 to 6 minutes and that we implemented that and uh a huge number of maps has generated and such sort span of time that all 250 plus serers got adopted and start utilizing this because only you have to give the input then the system will take the entire thing to Generate the final output the another uh the point which I would like like to highlight regarding the we discussed the Legacy data and textual data it's a very tough challenge to convert this textual data to the proper

schema and the data models so what we have to do uh just to put one more huge case because this uh the use case when we started develop we have to thanks to Survey of India because uh they have given the chance to Develop this model because the one of the major challenge to convert very old historical data uh to the identify the journeys of the survey journals to identify that so where we develop the uh textual models like entity recognition models and other models where we convert the test data to directly to the geospatial

data model automatically come convert and place as per the needs so but lot of the data and uh lot of the trainings is required it's a huge time Is needed but yes as just said textual data we have certain dependencies that what we have to take what not to take so uh if the model is ready the central level so then the these models AA models can train only those words we don't need to entire words like if we have to generate the prop property like I can talk about the PPM for the under the

Naka and all so what we need we need the name of the owner we need the when it for generated the first time the Property has registered whose name when it transfer then the area is important thing then you need the four corners of the lat long so what are the information you require if the textual data is available only we have to convert those and Stor into the particular the schema so if the schema is standardized model is standardized the conversion is possible but again the one of the important challenge regarding the languages recently

we have seen one of Important thing to convert the tipon maps and those all after discharging the TP pun automation but to getting the measurements with respect to the angle and also the return in the very different styles in the hand return returns so Hand return return still the models is not that much matured but normal the printer test yes it's matured and we can able to uh like convert completely because we implemented currently recently we implemented the Defense also to convert all the textual data to the complete database levels that's all you want to

put forward thank you uh thank you we have about 14 15 minutes now so we can uh have few questions from the audience if you have and then if time permits we can come back for a quick round of uh final thoughts from the panel yeah please hello uh my name is Harsha I'm from open G special Consortium thank you Chris for Champing the ogc cause in the UK with M model so the question here is uh not the question but the recommendation coming out sir because for the Naka project right can we have an

approach to have a schema prescribed in the Naka project RFP itself so that the data can be collected at uh the schema level because the problem that I have come across uh through discussions in the samit project is that each state was prescribing its own attributes to be collected one state Was describing prescribing four attributes some were giving 15 attributes so for a small who wants to optimize his projects or their projects for data collection they found it as a challenge so their recommendation was uh in one of the discussions is we should have a

schema in every project the national government prescribes in these mission mode uh kind of things so that's the point that I want to have a view from the esteemed audience uh esteemed Speakers on the Das thank you I think it's a very good suggestion and we are now in the process of preparing the RP for for collection of data in Maharashtra for 10 cities and this is I think the point that we have missed I mean at our level we are certainly doing it but then we are now speaking at the national level uh certainly

this is something which is lacking and maybe we will share maybe we'll combine with other states and also collect rfps from Them and we'll try and share with DLR so that we can come up up with a standard in the RFP itself so that once the rfps are done and vendors are in place then it will be very difficult to come back and correct uh the models but as you also know is part of the discussion uh the data model is being discussed in uh standard for data model is being discussed in DLR and there's

a group which is working on it maybe very soon we'll have a standard of data Collection with respect to land uh coming out as a guideline from uh DLR one of the outcomes perhaps of this Naka project will be because this is a POC we are anyhow calling it a POC is is a uniform schema across one for the kestral one for the Urban Land records and their harmonization in some way that should be one of the outcomes of this Naka project we have seen while dealing with matumi project Also each land is defined in

a different way within a state even if you take one state like Andhra Pradesh there are three regions and they follow different nomenclature for the same land but at the national level if you want to address that across and somebody wants to buy properties from Tamil Nadu he's coming to Andra up somebody is coming to Maharashtra so there should be a common denominator Of adopting the standard that is one thing which should be an outcome of all these deliberations the second is even for the Urban Land records actually you see there are three agencies who

are playing their part in this process s knows better uh one is the land records department other is the municipality third is Registration Department and fourth one is um ulbs harmonization of all this data I Would suggest I'll request her to throw some light how we can harmonize across all these different though it seems there are verticals they have to be integrated in some way somewhere it's very nice uh it's a very important issue which we are actually handling uh in India as we understand all the states have their own terminologies uh and then not

only terminologies but their meanings also Interpretations also are dependent on their laws so we in Maharashtra drr has sanctioned us a center of excellence in land administration at yashida where I'm currently working and we are now working on uh collecting all the terminology is of land records and Revenue Department all across the country we have almost done this completely we are in the final stages of uh categorizing the terminologies into various groups that are standards and interpreting it based On their legal definition in respective uh Revenue codes and trying to find a common understanding of

those terms uh various meetings have happened by the secret s has also taking meeting joint secretary has also taking meeting and maybe in the next one month we'll have a at least a category of terms which will be understood similarly all across the state uh all across the country from various States so that is where we are already working maybe it'll come in next Few months you wanted to say something I I I think you gave a beautiful example of what I was about to say so uh just in terms of and and calling back

to uh Dr sandip's excellent comments before about uh the government needing to take a proactive approach and talking to the data users ahead of time identifying the user groups what their data needs are and then making sure you're incorporating that into the schema that you develop so that you're not going Back later and bolting on something onto a schema that doesn't quite fit if you can plan that in ahead of time it does take extra time extra resources but in the long run if your data is more useful to a wider group of people it's

so much more valuable and that's what we're about is unlocking the value of this data right so yeah it's worth the time taking the time so I just again wanted to applaud your comments Sir thank you any other question from the uh audience yeah please lot dat colle data lot of imagery and with Naka there will be uh data sets around 3D data sets around you know different formats also meshes which will be very heavy considering everything and considering the NGP which states that we have to map the entire country at 5 cm GSD there'll

be around 170 to 200 petabytes of data going to be collected In the next 5 years so is there a policy around data management uh currently in the GDC is also the data is being stored and being uh called in hard drives so you know that shift is not being done so is there a policy level change that is going to be happening soon answer I think Naka project is cloud native up front so we are addressing this problem and perhaps while dealing with naksha Data there will be some standards which will emerge how to

manage this data how will you I agree that a huge data in swamit also we have about two petabytes of data but while serving for serving actually you need to know what data for what storing the data as it is is one thing serving the data for transactions is another thing you need to see how much data and what data and what format you need to serve see when I'm serving swamit data About 150,000 we have served already it takes about 7.9 petabytes but total data storage I'm enaging as two PES so what you serve

for what purpose and what kind of outputs you want so data organization is a issue and as we go forward we'll be addressing that Naka also we need to know what data the public needs I think it's 3D Vector data which is being served which will be served if you see the RFP also it is lod1 data which will be prepared and When it is served it is lod1 data and 3D Vector data so your sizes will be reasonable enough to be used yeah yeah yeah if I can add uh little value to the comment

uh so on the cloud side OG has a cloud native format called Cloud optimiz geotif so if you're serving petabytes of drone dat survey data right so looking at Cog uh can be a very uh optimal value proposition for the national governments in the states And also on the 3D side of things we now have 3D tiles which is again an open format uh and uh when you're looking at uh visualizing this data over the web for the citizens or for government Centric Services I think 3D tiles again can be one more standard I think

this can go probably sir as a recommendation as part of this Naka uh proposal that we can explore Cog and 3D tiles as two standards uh to uh serve this data thank you certainly yeah please so not Necessarily linked but I think just to some of the comments that that Joshua and Dr sand have made on uh the relationship between user requirements and your second point on data quality I think really interesting because I think we need to again have a more mature conversation about how high quality does the data need to be because at

the moment our data the underground pipes and cables the accuracy is plus or minus 2 meters it is and there's there's data Missing there is data in the wrong place that sounds bad but it's it's fit for purpose it's good enough it doesn't need to be any better to meet the use case that is required when people go and dig a hole you don't dig a hole blindly you have to do uh more detailed assessments so again I think there has to be more of a conversation around what is good enough what is it you

your point about the existing data we've got 4 million Kilometers of pipes and cables in the UK we know it's wrong but it's fine and to go back and get that to to resurvey the whole 4 million kilom to you know 2 RMS or to some sort of would cost a fortune it would cost an absolute fortune and it's not needed other places you know Singapore which is a much smaller country they are doing that they're going out and and surveying their data in more in in far more accurately but That's fine for them because

they've got a much smaller area they've maybe got a bit more budget so I think we need to sort of have the conversation around you know data standards is one thing data quality I think is another thing and data quality has to be linked to what joshu was saying data needs because sometimes what you've got is good enough well and I just just to piggy back what's good enough for now yeah yeah yeah yeah and get ready for the future Singapore did not become Singapore overnight right they worked and over years and decades to build

what they have so what's good enough for now and what can we build from yeah so yeah yeah it's a very yeah please uh myself D from Nic uh I also looking after this swam project and during that we have received so many data uh drone data but one point is that this data that we have received they have a different uh coordinance System so it is very difficult to conversion at one place all these things so in an o project also if they Define that what the projection system the data need to submit I

think that time can be reduced thank you yeah so I think that is going to be done uh since surve of India is going to do the entire job so probably that will be taken care of but uh on the accuracy standards for example just give an example uh during olden times we had a survey by manual means And you will not believe in the old survey manuals we have data accuracy standards what are the accuracy standards we have using if you are using chain and you know staff uh but unfortunately when we have advanced

newer technology we have lost track of uh know deciding on standards so today though we aim for 5 cm 5 cm of accuracy using drones and uh Rovers but we actually do not have it on uh in writing in uh either a regulation rule or Something like that that is where we will have to work otherwise wise in a place like Mumbai you know people will question uh a fo of inaccuracy will always be questioned maybe in urban other smaller towns maybe 2 3 ft will not be an issue but we'll have to have a

standard uh any comment on any any comment you want to make uh that's true that uh the uh data quality and the standards it will vary from place to place and use use only Thing is that we need to decide judiciously that what exactly is required now and what is going to be our journey in the next coming four five 10 years that way we need to decide the standards everything we cannot say that uh right now today we we can bring the data to this level and all and said you rightly said that if

I talk about the Mumbai even uh 10 cm here and there will be a lot of un cry but if you come to a smaller town there even 15 20 cm is also Acceptable because people are getting good data so we need to decide first of all that what exactly we require and where we need to compromise so uh we did some exercise my uh land records department prepared some uh documents where we have accepted that this much of error is acceptable so that we need to to decide and probably that will again differ from

place to place secondly sir the about the schema uh uh you rightly said that Uh I I came to know that yada is preparing uh a kind of uh common schema uh that is uh very that will be a very good exercise for all these states and in fact uh we also requested many times DLR that uh we need to because we are going to for the large very large project so we need to Define because the uh keeping the data is Again State uh definition and as per the law as per the local uh

uh Communication System local language system we have different type Of schema available even within within MP one type of land is uh noted in records in different way but yes standardization is required so we that standardization is also again not for the entire data set sir as you as that uh someone asked that uh some are having five attributes some are having 15 attributes some are having even more so we can standardize only the partial data partial attributes we can standardize rest whatever is there in Our Legacy that we have to bring first we will

bring that data into our data which is going to be used then only we'll think of that how to clean this and how to standardize this so everything uh cannot be done so rightly said Singapore is not buil in a day thank you so we have come to the end of the uh discussion today but before we close uh maybe two minutes for Mr ra and uh Mr K so one thing like since a lot of Discussion is happening now on schema standardization I would like I think you look into something called as ladm model

which actually is addressing lab two field IT addresses all the part of thing where you can work on this and it can also help you doing a overall generalization if you are looking in it so as rightly said say the biggest challenge today will be like you know the accuracy levels of the data has been collected also today with the modern Survey your accuracies have increased to what the other way we have been doing in so that could also be a thing where you know as Dr s s has told about we have to get

and arrive at that error and every state have to agree to it otherwise you know we can never be able we can probably never arrive at a common data model at a national level so I think since you are planning in that train and you being in the part of the committee I think that is something very interesting And common and again the other would be if you're looking at a national level all these projects to be synchronized and look seamless we also have to arrive at a common coordinate system where you see all all

these records at a national level in a seamless mode so that could also because there could be very good when you're working on a state level but when you come onto a national mosaic we have to think of that particular probably like a common market model or Something where you have to look in for thank you uh Dr Kiran uh so sir um the important thing uh one in terms of uh uh the data which you talk about the standardization and also the in terms of the sharing and all so but uh one thing definitely

we have to place into the RP but important thing is that the DLR has to take responsibility to create the complete schema and whoever vendor has qualified they have to share the same schema to everyone and ask the state Policy the SOP that the whoever vendor has working under this project they have to follow the same this coordin system and use this only the schema which is shared by the department so there is no like you can see in the future there is no discrepancy in the scheme and data level and another important thing if

you could see now in terms of the morning the Kunal s has mentioned regarding the metadata so each and every data is collecting by the different sensors and Different things so metadata maintaining is very important factor and under operation dag which has launched recently there is the GE GDA geospatial data interface which has initiated so the data sharing and also the metadata information is required over there so if the swamit or Naka whatever the projects uh the metad datas available that has to be registered over there so the user agency to understand okay the data

is coming from this state on the these are The coordinate system and this is the format and in terms of the accuracy is the last I want to put forward as we know the basic standard accuracy is the 3x and 5x like horizontal vertical accuracy so only the 3x and 5x is the well enough or else okay let's increase this 3x or 5x to 5x or 10x horizontal vertical X that also can put in the SOP this is only acceptable if the data is not on this level the data is directly rejected so each and

every vendor when They have plan for the flight plan or any type of the survey they should restrict okay my data should be processed on this much level and they could also pre- deler they have to check whether the data is delivered on that much 3x or 5x level or not that these are the points we have to careful sir before we have to take anything thank you now we come to end of the discussion uh panel two discussion now uh let me thank uh all the panel members uh for uh Bringing their uh vast

experience into the discussion and uh enriching all of us and uh thank you audience for being patient and asking questions relevant questions thank you thanks a lot thank you sanha sir for the great panel and uh it was great having all of you here it was a great insightful discussion that we had please be on the stage for a group photo everyone we have a lunch break now for an hour it's in the hall 4 if you Don't have your lunch coupon with you please collect it from the registration desk outside the hall please join

us back at 2: p.m. for the last panel discussion of the day thank you