so I became lucid and in the dream I called out give me the lottery numbers if I win I'll give the money to charity give me the lottery numbers give me the winning lottery numbers if I win I'll give the money to charity so I was very specific and when I did that suddenly this man appeared and he was dressed kind of like a security guard or a policeman in in this kind of uniform and a hat and I said have you got the lottery numbers for me and he went like this and he pointed
and when he pointed a screen appeared in the and on the screen it said BBC and I thought oh the BBC Lottery that's one of the TV networks in the UK that did the lottery at the time and I thought BBC Lottery and he nodded and then I went what are the numbers and he again pointed and then on the screen there were four numbers anyway the draw came and those four numbers that I had received in the dream they came [Music] up hello my name is Charlie Moy and I'm a teacher of lucid dreaming
and mindfulness of dream and sleep so I write books about sleep dream and Shadow work and then I go around and run workshops and Retreats on these topics um I first got into lucid dreaming as a child and then as a teenager but the real Tipping Point where I saw the full potential of lucid dreaming was actually through a near-death experience that I had when I was 17 years old I that time I was having a really crazy period of like partying and drugs and stuff like that and I had a drugs overdose and with
it I had the classic near-death experience I mean the full-on tunnel of light uh as I was going down the tunnel there were these like photographs appearing and I realized that the photographs were pictures of me and I was oh there's me oh there's me when I'm younger oh there's me when I'm a child oh there's me when I'm a baby and then I remember the last thing I thought to myself was what comes before baby and I thought what comes before baby and then boom I was in this Infinite Space this like huge infinite
void of Blackness but not Blackness as in the absence of color Blackness as in there was no need for any color here it was it was the ultimate it was Infinite Space and in this Infinite Space this voice said to me in my it was my voice it was like in my accent it was my voice said Charlie do you want to live or do you want to die and I remember thinking wow you have a choice when you die there's always a choice and straight after that I made the choice and I remember just
yelling or feeling like I was yelling I don't know if I was yelling in real life right but I yelled live and then as I yelled live my memory of it is that there was the sound of drums now I don't know whether I'm sure it was wasn't s drums I think it was probably the sound of my heartbeat restarting but this sound went b boom and I was oh oh and then boom my eyes open there were people standing over me trying to kind of revive me and then bum back again and then and
I'm out of it and now it's trying to kind of you know get me back to life so to speak so I have this like really powerful classic near-death experience but at the age of 17 I had no resources to work with it you know if I had one of those experiences now at the age of 40 after like 20 years of spiritual practice and living in the Buddhist temple for seven years and all these resources I I might even enjoy that experience it might be a really Awakening experience but at 17 it was terrifying
it was really really terrifying and totally traumatic there was nothing kind of fun or seemingly insightful about it at the time so after that experience I started having like panic attacks in the waking State real classic post-traumatic stress disorder symptoms loads of panic attacks loads of kind of derealization and the main thing was nightmares I was having these terrible terrible nightmares and in the nightmares it would kind of always be the same um scenario that I'd be in a normal dream and then this little dwarf would appear this little dwarf with a shaved head and
for some reason the dwarf with the the like bald dwarf represented death and he would appear in the dream and just look at me through one eye and when he looked at me that meant I'm still in the near-death experience so classic kind of replaying of trauma through the nightmare but the trauma was you never came back you you actually died that day and this happened continuously and I had like four months of these really really bad post-traumatic stress disorder nightmares now at that point I was into lucid dreaming I had been reading books about
lucid dreaming uh since I was about 15 16 but I was only using it for like just fun you know having sex and going skateboarding and flying about but I'd read in these books pretty much all of the books I'd read said at one point you can use lucid dreaming to transform nightmares and they all said the same thing basically if you could if you can become Lucid in the Nightmare and know oh I'm not really back in the trauma I'm just dreaming I'm back in the trauma that allowed you space to kind of integrate
the trauma so I tried to do it I tried to become Lucid in these nightmares but even though I became Lucid it was just too terrifying I couldn't I couldn't stay in the dream but after a few months of this I managed to become Lucid in this recurring nightmare the dwarf was there and I remember I was kind of angry I was like 17 I was about do my big a level exams at school at college and I thought oh I'm G to my future's going to be wrecked by this because I can't sleep so
I turned to the dwarf in the lucid dream and I went I know I should have hugged him and showed him love all this stuff I teach now but I was 17 right so I didn't I went off but it was something about the empowerment of finally facing the fear and saying like boom here's my boundary and I went I see you I see you and I think what I meant by that was like I I I understand what you are I see that you a representation of the trauma you're not real and when I
said that when I said I see you the dwarf's face changed he went like this hm like as if wow you got it and then he went like a magician he went Tada and when he went Tada in the dream the dream which was this kind of weird Wasteland night marish style dream transformed into a dream of paradise but a 17-year-old's paradise so it was like a big skateboard ramp and on the top of the skateboard ramp there were these girls in bikinis smoking joints like that and you know it's it's kind of silly but
obviously for 17 that was this symbol of things I love you know girls and smoking weed and skateboarding and stuff and I woke up from that lucid Nightmare and I never had the nightmares again the panic attack stopped the nightmares stopped the derealization stopped and that was the first time I realized wow the power of this thing called lucid dreaming the power of that I would love to say that when I had that near-death experience I received some sort of message for the world or something no not at all I think it's very important actually
to say not all near-death experiences are visions of light some are deeply deeply traumatic at the time now when I look back on it I see that near-death experience was the best thing that could have possibly happen to me and maybe the message that I received was this is the power of the practice now go and share it now go and teach it but no I didn't know that at the time at the time it was just terrifying it was just traumatic so I think for anyone who has had a near-death experience don't always be
uh don't feel that the near-death experience wasn't good enough simply because you didn't receive some sort of divine message because sometimes it can take 20 years for you to see wow W that was the message that was the the kind of reason I had that experience because now I realize all the work I'm doing links back to that near-death experience so thank goodness I had it but at the time no it was no profound message that I could see can we receive in lucid dreams uh prophecies or premonitions of future events yeah we can absolutely
I would ask anyone out there who's listening or watching to be careful what you ask for because we think want the truth but sometimes the the truth can be very very confronting um so I would say as a caveat be careful what you ask for in your lucid dream um but yes you can go into the lucid dream and ask questions and receive answers about future events and in some cases those future events will come to pass and you'll realize wow that was a prophetic lucid dream how this works I have no idea uh because
to explain prophecy or to explain uh precognition you have to explain Consciousness and at the moment we don't really have a scientific explanation of Consciousness um but I know it's real I know that 15 years of teaching this stuff and almost 25 years of practice have shown me without doubt that lucid dreaming can be used to receive prophecy or or precognition uh how it works I don't know does it work absolutely I've had experiences myself uh and I've had experiences of people who work with me kind of students who've done my workshops uh where it's
happened at a retreat so I've seen it I've seen them write it down in their dream diary and then it happened and be like wow okay that's that's a direct hit so yes it's possible um it's said from a Buddhist point of view there is some sort of explanation of how this is possible it said that when you're in the lucid dream state your mind is seven times more powerful so the mind of the lucid dream is seven times more powerful than the mind of the waking state so if you do a spiritual practice in
the waking State that's great but if you do that spiritual practice in the lucid dream state it's said to have the potential to be far far more powerful so you then think well then why isn't everyone in the Buddhist tradition doing their spiritual practice in their sleep they are a lot of these high llas really are doing that and that there are some who who spend a lot of time in bed because they're doing all their practice or a lot of their practice in their sleep so it is a thing um so because you have
seven times the power of Mind in the the lucid dream state things like precognition which are very natural states of being again a bit like how children come into this world being able to lucid dream and then forget I think also children come into this world being able uh having a much stronger connection to their natural precognition but then we forget as we're adults so when I was in my uh early 20s I became lucid and I asked uh I asked to meet my unconscious mind and when my unconscious mind appeared I asked them um
about an element of what the future held a specific kind of part of my future and um the reply was very specific about my mom getting a certain illness and at the time my mom was totally healthy and had no kind of Link or history to this illness uh but my mom did get that illness and just last year yeah she she died of that illness now how my mind could have known that who knows perhaps when we become Lucid we gain access not only to external knowledge but internal knowledge and the body is always
trying to communicate to us so perhaps the body knew that even within me there was some sort of uh predilection towards that illness and it could see that my mom had a predilection to that illness and it made a uh a potential statement about the future and that future came true when I look back on that dream I think if I had taken it seriously and really G oh wow my mom is going to get that illness would it have changed uh how I interacted with her would it have changed my way going forward and
I don't think it would have um I think what it would have helped of uh with his acceptance of that when it came to pass because I was really in denial about it when my mom first got her diagnosis so I think it could have helped with that um I don't know it's hard to tell isn't it how can we tell how the future would be different if we hadn't have known uh what the prophecy was because it would be a different timeline but yeah you can get specific things also I had a interesting uh
warning dream too where um I used to be like an amateur kickboxer and in the last fight I had I had a dream a couple of months before that my opponent I got very badly hurt in the kickboxing fight and in the dream I saw that they were badly hurt and I I pray like that and I Fall to my knees praying with my hands like that and then I woke up and when I woke from that dream I just couldn't shake it I had this idea oh something bad is going to happen in this
kickboxing fight I'm going to really someone's going to get hurt and it really messed with my mind and actually my performance in the kickboxing fight wasn't very good because my kind of mind was a bit uh shaken by this dream I couldn't I couldn't forget it in that kickboxing match it turned out I was the one who got badly hurt I got a broken nose with an accidental headbutt from my opponent and in the video and you can actually see this on YouTube I played it recently at a workshop to kind of prove it to
people in the video you see him come in you see my nose kind of go like that and then you see my opponent drop to his knees with his hands like that exactly as I saw in the dream it's such a strange thing for him to do you actually hear his coach on the video say what you doing what are you doing get up get up get up and he looks weird that the opponent goes like Oh God what am I doing and he stands up and that's the strangest thing as if he didn't know
he he looks shocked that his body is doing this just as in the dream so who knows there are instances like that there are instances where I've even asked for the lottery numbers in a lucid dream um I asked a Buddhist llama about this I asked about the ethics of um of gambling and she said well actually it's not that gambling is wrong and in of itself it's it's that if you're um gaining some sort of deep desirous pleasure from the act of gambling said that's the Mind poison so I said okay so if I
was gambling to try and raise money for charity and I wasn't kind of really kind of enjoying the gambling I just seeing if I could raise money for charity would that be okay and the Llama went actually in that case yes if your mind was really pure and I thought okay I'm going to try this in a lucid dream so I became lucid and in the dream I called out give me the lottery numers if I win I'll give the money to charity give me the lottery numbers give me the winning lottery numbers if I
win I'll give the money to charity so I was very specific and when I did that suddenly this man appeared and he was dressed kind of like a security guard or a policeman in in this kind of uniform and a hat and I said have you got the lottery numbers for me and he went like this and he pointed and when he pointed a screen appeared in the dream and on the screen it said BBC and I thought oh the BBC Lottery that's one of the TV networks in the UK that did the lottery at
the time and I thought BBC Lottery and he nodded and then I went what are the numbers and he again pointed and then on the screen there were four numbers well I don't know what they I can't remember what they were now you know 25 56 47 and eight like that and these four numbers came up and I remember that I kept repeating 29 498 all this kind of stuff remembered remember and I woke up so I only got four numbers now at this point in the lottery in the UK you need seven numbers to
win but I had four so I woke up and the first thing I did I got on my phone I Googled the next BBC Lottery and it was coming up as Wednesday night not the Saturday night or Wednesday night and I thought well that's the the nearest one so I'm going to try that so I go online and I put in the four numbers that I remember but it asked for seven numbers and I couldn't I didn't have any numbers so for the next ones uh I just put uh one two three you know just
to kind of fill in the boxes anyway the draw came and those four numbers that I had received in the dream they came up and I won not a lot of money small amount was like 50 or something like that30 and I gave the money to to the Buddhist charity when I told a friend of mine who was also living at the Buddhist center then she was a investigative journalist and I told her that and she did the maths and she went you know the odds of getting four of the lottery numbers for the midweek
draw are and it was like one in several million or something like that um so who knows there seems to be that potential I haven't done it since um actually I have I did try to do it uh since a few years later and I got nothing it just blacked out as if my dreamer was saying hey you only get one shot at this I don't want to get you into gambling but I tried it once and it worked so does lucid dreaming actually have any impact on the value of our sleep yes so I
work a lot with people who are suffering with sleeplessness and insomnia and although lucid dreaming may not seem like the most direct way to treat insomnia and sleeplessness it can actually help because lucid dreaming is an empowering practice it allows you to take control I put that in inverted commas or at least take some guidance or influence over the dream state and if you're someone who's working with sleeplessness or insomnia or nightmares or trauma sleep becomes a very disempowered place it becomes a place where you believe you have no control where you believe you you
can't do it properly so actually when you teach people to lucid dream even before they have that breakthrough lucid dream just the fact that you're giving people tools and techniques to allow them to direct the uh flow of their Consciousness into sleep and dream is a deeply empowering experience and we actually see people sleeping better once they learn the practice of lucid dreaming um and we know scientifically that when someone enters into the lucid dream state the brain often starts exhibiting gamma brain waves which is very interesting because gamma brain waves are the brain waves
uh that had a lot of research done into them about 15 20 years ago as the brain waves of meditation so they found that certain Buddhist monks and other practitioners who done over 10,000 hours of meditation often seem to display these gamma brain waves and gamma brain waves are the brain waves of um of realization so let's say I've forgotten your name and I'm going oh what's your name what's your name what's your name Mia that's your name the moment I remember your name I will have a gamma flash so it's the brain wave of
realization the brain wave of aha so it makes sense that when you become Lucid in a dream and you go aha I'm Dreaming I'm in a dream right now you have gamma but not only that in lucid dreams the gamma brain wav sustain because every moment you're in a lucid dream you're in a moment of awareness so when you wake up from a lucid dream the brain is bathed in gamma and that feels really really good so this seems to be one of the explanations for why when people wake from a lucid dream they feel
this sense of a real uplift they feel this sense of not only achievement that I was able to have a lucid dream but also this sense of wakefulness in the brain so from that point of view waking after a lucid dream you feel like you've had a really good sleep so is lucid dreaming a normal function of the human brain yes children naturally lucid dream so we come into this world with the natural ability to know that we're dreaming as We're Dreaming and be able to influence the dream at will which is of course a
definition of a lucid dream knowing that you're dreaming as you're dreaming and having the ability to direct the dream at will children do it naturally several two or three Harvard studies uh have clarified this and shown that children can naturally lucid dream not every child every night but it seems that lucid dreaming is a natural capacity of childhood brain development most people forget how to lucid dream kind of at around the same time they forget how to be children so when we push children into full full time education and we start telling them stop daydreaming
stop imagining stop being a child start counting start speaking start acting like a little adult we seem to forget that we forget the ability to lucid dream but some people make it through to adulthood with that ability I'd say about one in a 100 people I meet are natural lucid dreamers they come to the workshop they think oh I can do this already in which case I just tell them cool things that they can do in the lucid dream rather than how to lucid dream but for most people lucid dreaming is a rarity I mean
people listening or watching this podcast I'm sure most people will have had like one or two experiences say oh yeah I know what that is a dream where I knew I was dreaming and I could change the dream but it will be much uh less likely that most people here can do that every night my job is to teach people how to lucid dream at will and it is a learnable skill um do I do it every night not at all if I'm on Retreat and all I'm focusing on in lucid dreaming then can I
do it at will yes so I'm not an natural I'm not one of those one in a 100 I'm someone who needs to train to do it but I think because of that I'm quite a good teacher of it because I know the kind of things that work and the things that don't work but it is a learnable skill but it's also a natural state so from the Buddhist point of view um which I come from I guess I lived in a in a Buddhist cender for seven years and I I count myself as a
Buddhist practitioner not a very good one but a Buddhist practitioner within the Buddhist the Tibetan Buddhist um philosophy of Dreams lucid dreaming is the natural state so what's strange is non-lucid dreaming lucid dreaming is normal it's non-lucid dreaming that is strange because the essence of mind is cognizant awareness so anytime we're in a state of non- cognizant awareness that's the outlier that's the strange thing so in both Buddhism uh and in biological science it seems that lucid dreaming is a natural phenomena I think my biggest uh takeaway to put it like that of the near-death
experience was the fact we have a choice now of course I'm sure near-death experiences are just as subjective as people's dreams I'm sure they're completely personal for every person but just like dreams there are probably some sort of repeating patterns and my one have some of these repeating patterns it had the tunnel of light uh it had the idea of the life flashing before the eyes but for me it was in photo frame so photo frames when we getting younger and younger and younger um and then this kind of experience of the Void what seemed
to be uh interesting about mine was this choice and I've heard of other people having that too and for me it was said in my voice Charlie do you want to live or do you want to die for other people I think they get asked things like are you ready to come or do you want to stay things like that it was the idea of choice rather than judgment there was no judgment for me at the end of time there was Choice a choice to stay or a choice to go back and that always fascinated
me I've always wondered what would happen if ad have said to the question do you want to live or die if ad have said die you know would I have then just lost Consciousness fully and died or was that all part of the near-death experience trip was it some sort of a test who knows but for me that was something that's always stuck with me more than 20 years later what would have happened if I have chosen uh the other option and the biggest takeaway for lucid dreaming I believe is the fact that while you
are sleeping you have the potential to reprogram your brain while you're asleep we know that once you become Lucid part of the brain the right dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex reactivates and that is a part of the brain that is not usually active When We're Dreaming when that part of the brain reactivates and it reactivates at the moment you go aha I'm in a dream right now neuroplasticity comes back online so this is the ability for the brain to rewire itself in favor of a newly learned skill or a repeated action non lucid dreams very little
neuroplasticity lucid dreams neuroplasticity in the moment this means that what you do in the lucid dream actually rewires your brain while you're sleeping that is a huge untapped resource that we all have at our fingertips this means that through lucid dreaming you can learn you can get better at stuff you can explore outcomes as a creative laboratory of enlightened wisdom all while outwardly you seem to be asleep that's a very powerful tool it's free it's non addictive it's non invasive uh it's non-medical everyone has access to it it doesn't cost anything and you do it
yourself I can think of no more deeply empowering form of self therapy than that and that's just from the neuroscientific point of view once you look at the spiritual benefits of lucid dreaming and you see that lucid dreaming has been part of Milam nalo or often called dream yoga in the west as part of the Tibetan Buddhist tradition lucid dreaming has been used to train the mind to move Beyond itself while we sleep so lucid dreaming is actually used right at the end of the scale for full spiritual enlightenment in fact the second kopa who's
head of the spiritual lineage of which I'm in some small way part of he reached full spiritual enlightenment in lucid dream so he went to sleep a very awakened being but not fully spiritual enlightened and then he became Lucid in the dream he did a certain spiritual practice and became fully enlightened so he went to sleep non- enlightened he woke up fully enlightened all through a lucid dream that is huge this means that lucid dreaming in and of itself can be a complete path to full Spiritual Awakening and if that Buddhist llama the kopa could
do it hundreds of years ago we can do it now because your Buddha nature your essence of Awakening your potential for enlightenment is exactly the same as any Tibetan llas Buddha nature it's not based on race or time or or who we are everybody has Buddha nature and through lucid dreaming you can fully activate that Buddha nature and reach full Spiritual Awakening while you sleep now that's theoretical because I'm definitely not spiritually awakened but I see the potential and I see in some small way through the lucid dreams have had how you can do this
how you can reach um how you can do spiritual practices which can seem unreachable in the waking state but in the lucid dream they're possible so it opens us up to this huge Avenue of spiritual potential while we sleep so are there any drawbacks to lucid dreaming I think lucid dreaming like any form of spiritual practice could be abused I think it's a bit harder to abuse lucid dreaming because it's quite difficult to have an intentional lucid dream so there's a natural barrier to entry um but you could I mean look at me my first
two years of lucid dream training from 15 to 17 I was just using lucid dreaming for like sex right I'd become lucid and I go hot girls now and all these girls would appear and I'd have sex and stuff like that and nothing wrong with that but you know I wasn't using it for anything spiritual or for anything really beneficial and now when I look back at how our brain networks are being wired I think oh wow that was you know maybe a bit dangerous for me to be so young and wiring my brain Network
for sexual desire so you know there's a there's possibility there I think the main thing uh for lucid dreaming could be a sense of escapism that people could choose to kind of Escape into the lucid dream and um uh feel that their Waking Life is not worth anything but I've heard people use that argument and I've never seen it I've never seen anyone because if you have the ability to lucid dream that much then it requires the to have the ability to lucid dream that much requires a certain level of waking State mindfulness so often
people who raised their level of waking State mindfulness to be able to have lots of lucid dreams aren't the kind of people who want to escape into fantasy but sometimes that's said as as a possibility I think the main metaphor I use for how lucid dreaming uh could have any cont indications are if you look at mindfulness so I work a lot with uh military veterans and I was told this the British Army and sorry the American Army had received training in mindfulness meditation and two people from the same class uh the same group who'
had the meditation had very different experiences and they were both snipers actually in the American Army and one of them told a story of being in Afghanistan and having somebody through the SES and they went into their mindfulness meditation breathing and as they breathed out their mind settled and with that settling there was a sense of empathy for the person they saw through the through the sniper rifle SES and they breathed out and they thought oh how old is that guy mid-30s mid-30 he probably got a wife in Afghanistan probably got kids he's probably got
multiple kids and as he was breathing and just feeling his empathy towards him the guy walked and he saw that he was a friendly you know he wasn't actually a a combatant and he didn't make the shot and I thought wow mindfulness saved that guy's life if I was to give one message to people surrounding the idea of lucid dreaming it would be learn how you know lucid dreaming is a learnable skill kids do it naturally it gives us access to the most powerful virtual reality simulator in existence the human mind and it's there for
us every night of our Lives yet it's actually a very small percentage of the world's population who are active lucid dreamers so I would say Lear and you can learn from a book from a workshop from YouTube uh I do a lot of free events too so if you can't come to a full Workshop come to my free monthly events online they're called the lucid dream drop in um I've also got lots of Retreats well I've got some Retreats coming up next year I'm about to become a father so I'm doing a much smaller schedule
of Retreats next year um but whether you come with whether you learn with me or someone else I'd say learn you know learn to lucid dream because you sleep every night so when people say I don't have time for my spiritual practice I'm so busy with work and everything I think well here's a spiritual practice that you do when you're asleep that's amazing I think that's even more relevant to today's high-paced modern world than it was a thousand years ago in ancient toed because you're right we have less time now or we think we have
less time we have more distractions now actually not less time and here's a practice you can do in a place where you are non-distracted you are asleep so you're asleep anyway way so you might as well learn how to wake up in your sleep and to transform your mind while you're sleeping