Thank you, Mr Chairman. So, the IRS collects nearly all federal revenue, and that means that behind every road we build, every social security check that we pay is the IRS making sure that everyone pays what the law says they owe. No politics.
But Donald Trump has a different idea. He wants to use the IRS to punish his enemies. On May 2nd, Trump said, quote, "We are going to be taking away Harvard's taxexempt status.
" Harvard wouldn't cave in to other demands Trump made. So Trump said he would hurt them using the IRS. Now, this is about more than Harvard.
It is a threat to anyone who might displease the president, including the people or organizations that can't afford to uh have expensive legal battle if Trump sets the IRS on them. So, Mr Long, when you and I met, I asked you whether it was illegal for the president to tell the IRS to revoke a taxpayers's nonprofit status. and you said in our meeting that you weren't sure, but you would take a look and consult with lawyers.
I sent you this statute. You've had three weeks to talk to the lawyers about it. So, let's jump in.
Mr Long, is it illegal for the president to direct the IRS to revoke a taxpayers's nonprofit status in the first place? He wouldn't do that. He's not going to come to Mr along.
Please don't start down this. Are we on section 7212 or 727? 26 USC 7217.
Do I need to read it to you? Prohibits any member of the executive branch to request the IRS to conduct or terminate an audit on a taxpayer. All righty.
So, is it illegal? I'm going to follow the law. And if that's the law, yes.
Okay. But I want you That is the law. Yeah.
So, I just want to be clear. Is it illegal for the president of the United States to instruct the IRS to uh remove a taxpayers's nonprofit status? Prohibits any member of the executive branch to request the IRS to conduct or terminate an audit of the taxpayer.
Is Is that a yes? I'd have to go to I'd have to go to the lawyers at the IRS to tell me. Come on.
You just read it. I know, but I don't see the instance that you're speaking about in there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see.
Look, it says it shall be unlawful for any applicable person, which in this case includes the president, to request directly or indirectly any officer or employee of the Internal Revenue Service to conduct or terminate an audit or other investigation of any particular taxpayer? Is it illegal for the president to instruct the IRS to remove nonprofit status from an a taxpayer? I'm not going to have the answer that you need and I apologize, but it like I said, why are you not having the answer?
You've had three weeks to consult with lawyers. The statute is about as clear as plain English. Well, if I say I'm going to follow the law, why would you need to ask me the question?
Well, because I want to make sure that you understand what the law says. If you think follow the law means you just get to make it up on the spot, then bud, you don't get to be the IRS commissioner. I said I would.
The point here is to follow the law as it is written. And I'm asking what I think is a pretty simple question. Can the president of the United States legally tell the IRS to change someone's nonprofit status?
I'm not able to answer. You can't read these words and tell what those words say. I can read the statute and I did.
All right. Then tell me what they mean. What does it mean to say that a person an app an applicable person here that's the president, right?
Yes. All right. cannot directly or indirectly right tell any officer or employee that would be you of the Internal Revenue Service to conduct or terminate an audit or other investigation of any particular taxpayer.
What part do you not understand here? It seems to be a not a nonprofit. I don't see exactly what it refers to.
Any taxpayer to start an investigation of any If it's illegal, I'm not going to allow it to happen in my IRS. Is it illegal? That's me and you will be friends.
Then I want to be your friend anyway, but I we will be we will be on the same page. I'm going to follow the law. And if that's point blank, what do you understand the law to be saying about the president telling the IRS in his dealings with any particular taxpayer?
What do you understand this law to be saying? I think it sounds like it's saying what you're saying, but I don't I've got a little bit of the section here and I looked at I talked to attorney that used to be at the IRS and now going to maybe be back at the IRS and I'm sorry if I don't have the answer. What?
You mean the lawyers told you they couldn't understand this? The what? The lawyers told you they couldn't understand this?
I didn't say that. Well, then tell me what part do you not understand? It says no person, and you said that's the president, that includes the president, cannot instruct any officer, that would be you, of the IRS to conduct or to terminate an audit or other investigation for any particular taxpayer.
I don't intend to let anybody direct me to start uh audit for political reasons or any other type of reason. Does that include the president of the United States? That's anyone.
Can you say yes that the president of the United States cannot tell the IRS what to do? I can tell they're not going to tell me what to do. I can't speak for other if there's other agents at the IRS that you're talking about, but I'm telling you what I don't want to have happen in my IRS.
You know, Mr Mr Long, you'd have a lot more credibility if you just say yes. It's clear that the statute makes it illegal for the president to direct the IRS visa be any particular taxpayer. And the fact that you want to sit there and dance around about this tells me that you shouldn't be within a thousand miles of the directorship of the IRS.
I apologize.
