"Are You DONE With The Russian Propaganda?!” Debate on Trump, Putin and WW3

Biden made this country and these people promises he could not keep it's Biden's betrayal this war are not about America this war is about our very long time centuries long oppressor trying to thrust us back under their control the book is not called Justified why Russia had to do what they had to do are you done with Russian propaganda that's all anyone ever says is that this is Russian propaganda but that's just a bunch ofra Is are you getting or not oh give me a break no one in America cares about Russia at all Lady

can you shut up for a second Trump's main Bluff is I'll make this war much bigger if you mess with me what if Putin says yeah go ahead well then we're in a lot of trouble I've never seen you quite this angry fears I'm angry about hearing misinformation stop stop you owe a trillion dollars in destruction of our country we can stop talking about the Risk of World War III it's already begun that was a chilling warning of two United States National Security Experts this week and the evidence is certainly mounting Syria Gaza Lebanon Ukraine

are all red hot they're all regional proxy wars with the United States at their Apex whether most voters want it to stay there or not aray has been focused on Joe Biden's disastrous decision to Pardon Hunter Biden his son and the cover it provides to Trump's own Clemencies but Trump's war strategy will have much bigger con consequences and the world is awaiting his answers he campaigned and one with a populist anti-war message but now he's warning that Hamas will have hell to pay if it fails to release the hostages and he has a cabinet with

a bite to match his bark Ukraine's president zalinski now says that Ukraine will be prepared to seed territory in exchange for NATO membership and NATO apparently agrees But it won't make any decisions until Trump is back in the White House and Putin may not be interested anyway many people think that a rapid Retreat May provoke Putin and the safest way back from the brink we've watched from the United States as the Biden Administration has driven the US ever closer to a nuclear conflict with Russia the country that possesses the world's largest nuclear Arsenal it has

accelerated ever since and it's reached Its appy so far in the weeks after Trump's election he's now the president-elect in that time just a few weeks ago the Biden Administration American military personnel launched missiles into Mainland Russia and killed at least a dozen Russian soldiers so we are unbeknownst to most Americans in a hot war with Russia an undeclared war a war you did not vote for and that most Americans don't want but it is ongoing well joining me to debate on this is the Author of provoked how Washington started the new cold war with

Russia and the catastrophe in Ukraine Scott haunton uh the former Navy SEAL who killed Asama Bin Laden Rob O'Neal the host of the founder of The Young Turks Jen Yuga and the Ukrainian streamer and YouTuber Ukrainian Anna welcome to all of you here uh let me start with you Ukrainian Anna first time we've had you on uncensored so welcome to you um I watched the interview with president Zalinsky at the weekend and I I went to ke uh four months after the War Began and interviewed him uh and the first lady and he he was

Resolute then that Ukraine would not seed an inch of territory to Vladimir Putin and that was certainly the mood of all the people and yet here we are you know just over two years later and there's no doubt that he is now countenancing the idea that Ukraine would seed the territory that's been taken by Putin in return for Membership of NATO for the rest of Ukraine what what did you think of that interview that he gave um what I think about it is there are certain realities that we have to contend with as people and

many people in Ukraine are of the opinion that Trump will um when he becomes president uh push Ukraine to basically some sort of concession and our job is now to somehow figure out how do we guarantee our security in the future and how we Prevent Russia from attacking us again which is something that most people think uh NATO membership is because uh Russia is not in the business of attacking NATO countries it's in the business of attacking Georgia malova Ukraine countries that are outside of NATO's protection so um yeah most people in Ukraine obviously don't

want to see anything because we know what happens in those occupied territories and so does un and many other organizations that Gave uh you know their their not to the to the acknowledgment that there is a systematic uh um torture rape abuse deportations of ukrainians uh prohibition of Ukrainian language culture and all sorts of horrible things and of course nobody wants to abandon our people to that sort of Fate but also you have to uh kind of you know kind of content with the with what our our allies want and what is their decisions so

I believe uh in that sense that Zansky is uh doing exactly that he's you know acknowledging the reality of Trump's presidency and what will happen um yeah so I think we should also um you know wait and see what exactly Trump will do because his plan has been discussed but we don't know really much details so far so yeah I wouldn't jump uh into conclusions right now no I think that's right I think that yeah I mean I'll bring Scott haunton Scott Horton here Scott the thing about Trump is he's He is unpredictable we don't

know know I talked to him last week about this we don't know exactly what Trump's going to do people people keep trying to say this is what he'll definitely do he'll give Putin everything he wants and so on I don't think that's going to happen um but in terms of this deal that zalinski seemed to be putting forward where Putin would keep the land that he's taken but that the rest of Ukraine would come under the NATO umbrella do You think that's something that Putin would even consider as part of a peace settlement oh I

really don't know I I certainly doubt that he's willing to accept anything that would include even rump you know what's left of Ukraine joining the NATO alliance um I certainly hope that Trump would not entertain that um that's what this has been largely about of course along with um the contest over who controls what territory inside the country um is preventing Exactly that conclusion I think it's a real dilemma because the ukrainians um you know it's not just that Trump has won an election on repudiating Biden's policy and seeking peace here it's quite frankly that

the ukrainians are just in no position whatsoever to reverse Russia's gains on the ground even the Biden Administration admits that now the post the times in the journal all Quote military experts saying that that truly is the case so in other words Kiev and DC are in a position of weakness and all Trump really has to threaten is more weapons sales and in and increased weapon shipments um but Biden already tried that that didn't make the difference and so um I think what's what's going to happen is the Russians are are going to keep probably

all four of those Eastern and Southern provinces there uh you know um uh Lans dones zosia and kerson and hopefully will not demand harke or Odessa we can you know stop it There and the Biden pardon me the the Trump Administration is going to have to get their messaging straight that this truly is a betrayal and they admit it but that it's Biden's betrayal Biden made this country and these people promises he could not possibly keep we're going to help you force the Russians all the way out and all of these things and all they've

done is gotten a bunch of people killed and then they lost anyway and it's a real tragedy But it's not Trump's fault Trump has to be able to have the political capital in this country to say that look it is ugly but you know what Pierce he actually and I don't know how he did this he got Z Khalil zad the card carrying neoconservative straussian to sign a deal with the Taliban to get up out of there and yes Biden absolutely botched the withdrawal I could go on for an hour about that but Trump was

willing to say you know what we lost we're not keeping The Taliban out and we're going to stop trying now and Biden it was really the best thing Biden ever did his life was agree with that even though he botched the process of the withdrawal and so it's the same kind of thing here it's a it is a real tragedy what the Biden Administration has gotten the country of Ukraine into here check I mean it look every part of me is like I don't want to give a Russian dictator who's illegally in my view invaded

a sovereign Democratic European country that's been independent since the mid90s I don't want to give him an inch of that land that he's stolen with his murderous Rampage but there comes in war you know I've got a lot of military in my family there comes in war a cold hard reality check as Anna was alluding to earlier where we are where we are you know we can all be idealistic about what we'd like to happen but the reality is that it is highly unlikely now I think that Ukraine without a massive extra support from the

likes of America which is simply not going to come that it is it is a case if Putin will probably be able to keep what he's taken is that your assessment and is that right for the world that we give him this big win which is effectively how he will portray it yeah that is my assessment and so the reality on the ground is that when Trump won uh we lost about 20% of Ukraine now Uh there's a good argument to be made that you had already lost that 20% of Ukraine and you were never

going to get it back because of the military realities on the ground so you know it's this has been a very very difficult question because uh the US did push Russia too much we did push NATO to its borders when we said we wouldn't I understand all that but at the end of the day the Russians invaded and it's not an anti-war position to Start a war so Putin is definitely guilty and add on top of that 12,000 civilians killed at on top of that 20,000 Ukrainian children kidnapped but what's the answer is the answer

to fight for the next 10 years 20 years is the answer to seed ground to Putin well that's also super dangerous that's why this is an unsolvable riddle because you can get to peace now by doing what Trump is likely going to do which is Russia take 20% of it and uh n and it and Ukraine will not join NATO but the next time Russia thinks about invading a country they're going to think well we went into Georgia and took a chunk we went into Crimea took it all you know when it was part of

Ukraine we went into Ukraine again we took 20% of it it turns out aggression is rewarded and and Netanyahu is watching and he's going to take a part of Gaza and China's watching and they've got the wegers and the the you know detention camps and the Re-education camps and the Russians have the Ukraine children in the re-education camps so this is really really dangerous for the world no matter how it's resolved yeah Rob O'Neal you've been at the sharp end of some of the worst conflicts Wars of the last 25 years uh and once again

thank you very much for your extraordinary service not least in killing Bin Laden what is your overview of where we are here Trump coming in obviously is going to change the dynamic He proved in his first term he's not a war monkey he thinks War apart from anything else is just terrible business that it cost a fortune the rewards are very low um the other side of that coin is do you let a Russian dictator run into a European country take what he wants and just let him have it what's your view well unfortunately we're

in a position where it doesn't matter why we got here we're just here and uh Chen was Mentioning uh Georgia and Crimea and uh invasion of Ukraine that's all weak leadership on the United States and unfortunately when we have a strong United States we have a more state world most of the time I mean we did invade Iraq and I disagree with that even though I went there but you're going to have to go to a position of negotiation I mean we we did say we weren't going to push in NATO further east and we

did lfia Lithuania Estonia we were moving There and now uh Ukraine wants to be a part of NATO and and um you know it's un Russia doesn't want that and you're dealing you're dealing with big countries but you're also dealing with big Egos and Vladimir Putin Putin grew up in a part of Russia where part of the fund was chasing rats with sticks and he found what it was like to corner a rat and that's kind of where he is right now he's trying he's been he's been in charge of Russia since the early 90s

Let's be honest and he wants to save face with his people he's lowering the conscription a to get people in there to fight he's not it's like he's not going to back out but you can't let him take more and I'm by no means um defending him but I also think that vomir zalinski is a puppet and and a he's you know he's laundering money just like most the people in Washington Ukraine that's why the the whole argument Ukraine is how much money people can personally make in Ukraine um and I you know I I

hopefully think that Donald Trump brings a big stick also he he doesn't care about embezzling money like the United States is now and whatever they're doing but uh it's it's not a it's not a good situation but we definitely need deter we need Alliance solidarity which we lost uh by leaving uh Afghanistan the way we did and a forward defense right now our Navy which is the the the epitomy of our forward defenses under The Biden Administration is worrying about uh getting more transgender bathrooms and getting green uh ships even though they're all nuclear which

is green um it just there needs to be some adults in the room and talk reality because here's where we are and someone needs to come the table and talk to someone else not worried about how much jewelry Mrs zinsky could buy in New York on the taxpayers dime right andna how popular is Vladimir zalinski now with Ukrainian people do you think um I'd say pretty popular still uh most people consider him a pretty good representative of uh Ukrainian people and what what we want and uh pretty disheartening I'd say to hear what people say

here but I'm used to it um surprisingly chank uh I agree with in the sense that uh we can't allow uh Russia to continue get away with what they're doing because that's what they have been doing in particular with Annexation of Georgia and territory and mova and Ukraine in 14 and now in 22 full scale Invasion and um yeah um nothing stops them then from fully invading mova or Georgia they are already doing all they can to select people there um as you know presidents and um Med medal in their um elections uh quite strongly

already and if they can't do it with just hybrid methods of uh you know sabotaging the elections and uh making people basically you know um Install their puppets there then they do uh well sort of like a blackmail then they do threats and then they do annexation Invasion Terror uh death and you know all what that we are having right now in Ukraine and that's not how would you describe and how would you describe the mood of the Ukrainian people when I was there like I say two years ago to a man and woman whatever

age that I met there was this Steely resolve of we got to win this at all Costs but the cost has been enormous you know so many cities just destroyed so many people killed all these children being taken and so on is there a mood now in the country that they just want peace just want a deal even if it means surrendering the territory that's been taken uh well nobody wants peace more than us I live in a city that is bombed every day you know my father has been killed so of course we want

peace but That depends on what that peace is because uh nobody wants peace without any sort of Justice right and um that is the problem because uh we have to consider um power now obviously right even if the fire stops so let's say my city stops being bombed every day that's a bonus for me obviously right and for my family and for my friends but uh how important is that bonus because it's a temporarily bonus we have to think about the future that other people other Generations are not going to go go through exact same

things we went through and that's quite important to most ukrainians but the mood of course have been solid uh as you said people were more enthusiastic before specifically because of the I would say lack of care and lack of commitment from our allies uh as particularly the incredible amount of limitations on our long range strikes for example as you know UK actually gave us the long range Missos storm Shadows I believe they're called and we used and we couldn't really use them because of the limitations that were given to us primarily by United States and

by Biden by the way himself administ his administration at least so in that sense there has been a sort of demoralizing effect of course because of the lack of Aid inconsistent aid from both United States and also European countries as well and uh it's hard to sustain that Sort of like U I'd say hopefulness uh and will uh when you are not confident that you will have means to fight with properly and that I would say dampen the mood yeah I understand that Scott um you know a lot of people have come on this show

since this war started and they they've made the argument which I know that you you subscribe to which is effectively the west and Ukraine goed Russia into doing this by continually pushing for NATO membership for NATO Encroachment and so on as the Russians saw it there's there's another school of thought that this could have been resolved diplomatically that that actually yeah you can take that argument you can see there's Merit to that argument uh certainly to a degree but it doesn't justify launching a full invasion of your neighboring country would you accept that The Invasion

itself didn't actually have to happen yes I have a whole section in my Book about all of Putin's different options that he could have uh taken the book is not called Justified why Russia had to do what they had to do it's called provoked how Washington started the new cold war with Russia and the catastrophe in Ukraine because the book is 700 pages of all of this going back to the end of the last Cold War and um I you know with all due respect to the guy that shot Bin Laden in the head um

thank you and and with all due respect to this Young woman whose poor country is being bombed to death and their opinions here it's just not the case that what we have is a simple case of a hitlerian Putin L Russia running rough shot and Rampage and the only thing to stop him is when uh tough good guys like us stand up to a bully like him for example in a war that they both sided numerous times here today the Georgia war was begun by the American sock puppet s kashvi he launched that war and

killed Russian Peacekeepers in his initial assault and they lied about that led by John McCain during the campaign at the time in 2008 but even the New York Times later admitted that yeah it was true that that was how that war started and it was a and part of his motivation to do that was that bush a few months before had given him sort of a pseudo membership action plan for joining NATO but you can't join NATO if you don't have settled borders and Georgia had these Two Breakaway provinces under Russian protection and so he

was trying to reincorporate them so he would have a settled border so he could join America's military Alliance which completely blew in his face and got a bunch of people killed but that's just not the same thing as Putin wakes up every day scheming on how he can conquer Poland and only America's threat of ultimate hbomb Annihilation is holding him at Bay it's just really not like That it's much more complicated than that and you know again uh back to your original question it's not to say that he's justified in what he's done but it's

like if you get in a bar fight and you're shoving a guy with a knife in his pocket and he stabs you that doesn't justify you shoving him doesn't justify him stabbing you but also you were shoving a guy with a knife in his pocket and don't pretend like he just woke up this morning looking to pick a fight With you and and one more thing here a great example and then I'll leave it is the status quo in Crimea held from 1991 all the way through 2014 what changed was that and and there was

a controversy over it's a extremely important Russian naval base there at sesta pole and the rest of this it was in controversy since Independence but the status quo held until the Barack Obama government overthrew the government of Ukraine for the second Time in 10 years and then the new regime immediately threatened to uh repeal and abolish The harke Pact the agreement by which Russia was allowed to stay at sesta pole and it was only then that They seized the Crimean Peninsula so it's not to say that oh it was perfectly Justified for them to do

so but it is to say that it was Barack Obama and Joe Biden who picked that fight and then it was Putin who finished it and then this is a big part of the reason why the war In the east broke out immediately was because when the denters seized buildings in the East and including with some Russian help just like the westerners helped the maidan they declared war against them they overreacted at John Brennan's beest we know this it was reported in Forbes John Brennan went there on April 12th they launched the war on the

14th and the reason that he the reason they they did that was because they the coup had Already blown up in their face in the loss of Crimea so they weren't about to tolerate Russ East it's not Russian propaganda I'm a Texan I don't even read Russian or know what the Russians say about this stuff this is the history of the world I speak Russian that's my fine can I please interject with that well let me let let me just say right here anytime anyone contradicts the party line on this That's all anyone ever says

is that this is Russian propaganda but that's just a bunch of crap their playing you rep speaking the truth money or not uh I'm just lady at least they pay you that really is all you have because you can't contradict any of my facts so you have to come everything you said I par in my no one in America cares about Russia at all Lady nobody in America cares about Russia back in the days of Communism they were communist please uh can I Please uh have a word uh this person spoke quite a bit we

had gave him him a roer to repeat Russian talking points and lies l so you know okay well Scott letna just respond to what you were saying Scott to hear a lot of was said so it's kind of difficult to counter ER everything basically it was not a coup it was a revolution that millions of people participated in the reason we participated me included I was 19 back In the day um we it was because uh we had severe problems with corruption and a tyrannical puppet of Russia yanukovich who refused used to uh make a

treaty with the European Union which is what most of the people in Ukraine wanted 60 something percent and especially younger people wanted to move away from Russian control from Russians owning every single business industry in my country and to have some sort of like laws and Order and also have some sort of Democracy and Liberty that is what something people have in the west and that's something that we did not have so that was about Revolution was about that about students going and protesting and getting beat up and yanukovich then going to Russia to essentially

ask Putin his body how can he stop the protesters which he then made dictator laws that prohibited people to effectively protest at all in this country so we didn't appreciate that and we went literally Millions of people participated in maidan that is not a coupe that is not something you buy for Obama or nand cookies I I I'm sorry to say never received a single cookie yet it's been a long time and yeah all of that when going to Georgia is a whole other thing but that's just what Russia does it creates unrest it supports

uh militias in the countries and then it uh basically uh FL fluts them with weapons and also applies its own soldiers to Annex territory by the guys of protecting Russian speakers or any of that Scot is a master I I believe Scot is the name right um here but I am a Russian speaker from Eastern Ukraine it's about as East As It Gets in harv and I didn't require their protection I was never prosecuted what they did is that they attacked us on the on the under the guys of protecting Russian speakers that would never

prosecuted in this country because half of us Literally are Russian speakers we have been russified back in the day by Russian Empire so yeah this war is about not about you I'm sad to say some things are not about America it is worries about our very longtime centuries long oppressor trying to thrust us back under their control and we didn't want that people in Georgia don't want that if you can see it by now currently by the Revolution and the protest going on in the country exactly For the same reason because their corrupt Russian puppet

government refused the people's will to be part of Europe so it was never about NATO because we never discussed joining NATO until Russian invasion it was never even a conversation in Ukraine about joining NATO so thanks for the lies obviously also also yeah they do have borders with NATO right now and they had them before now it's even bigger it doubled because Finland in fear of Russia joined NATO That's why people join NATO because they want protection from Russian aggression okay thank you Anna uh Rob you've been waiting patiently um it's interesting I mean I

I find with these debates I learn a lot but I'm not entirely sure sure where the truth lies having just heard two very different versions of the history here what would you like to say well I mean what I like to say is uh I'm obviously Anna has more experience than me she lives there she's lost Family members and having seen War firsthand I know that uh most people don't want to be at War most people are trying to get on with their lives and unfortunately they're bad people that uh Force this stuff and my

heart goes out to them too and I'm definitely going to buy Scott's book after this I'm I'm actually sitting here on this panel learning a lot open I us to be know America pie and we're the greatest in the world but I've Seen that we've done sitting here in the United States having work in DC and living in New York um I I just don't like my taxpayer dollars going over to a place where people are are funneling into their own pockets and uh threatening a nuclear war because it doesn't matter who does it if

one nuke gets launched if it's India to Pakistan or or Israel to somewhere else or the United States decides the only country by the way to ever drop a nuclear weapon On another country if that happens again we're going to go into a thing called nuclear winner and you're not you're going to want to die in the blast you're not going to want to die doing that um I my interest is in uh you know getting corrupt politics out well first here hopefully it starts in January and then maybe it can spread somewhere else you're

never going to get rid of corrupt politicians because narcissists are just they just go there Washington's full of Them I've been there I've seen him obviously Vladimir Putin's a horrible person I don't like volodimir zalinski either uh I'm I'm tired of seeing innocent people get killed for other people getting rich because that's that's what happens I'm tired of seeing soldiers who don't want to be there both Ukraine and Russia fighting in trenches like they did in World War I and getting hit with uh suicide drones which is the wave of the future almost to the

point Where we're going to stop having manned uh Jets because it's not it's a waste of time when Legions of drones will be fighting I hate to see this escalation of force I hate to see people getting rich everywhere from the the uh industrial complex of the military of big Pharma of all that stuff it's just sad as someone who went somewhere uh risked my own life to kill the number one terrorist in the world and now wonder if some of the places we went Were even worth it or we're just making people like Dick

Cheney Rich so that's why I'm here and and I'm just open I want to hear what shank has to say buing the book love to hear Scott's book love to hear what Anna is saying and uh I'm I'm honest to God just learning stuff here today so you know what that's such a great honest answer Rob that's why I love having you on on sensed because you're an honest guy and I I I really no but I really appreciate that I feel the Same way I don't I don't I don't I don't profess to be

a great expert here uh Chen I'm G to come to you in a second I was going to have a quick uh break to speak to the former NATO Supreme Ally Commander General Wesley Clark General thank you very much indeed for joining us oh happy to be here appear I'm listening to this panel look um there's a lot of misinformation I was in Ukraine on the 20th uh 31st of March I went through Maidon I talked to the people I looked at the lamp post where Putin's uh henchmen had killed a bunch of ukrainians or

a bunch of bullet still embedded in the lamp post I followed it very very close closely um I don't know exactly what you want to talk about if I'd been on your panel I would have probably disagreed with most of them the people in Ukraine are fighting for democracy NATO didn't push itself to the Borders it was drawn to the borders by the people in Eastern Europe who wanted Freedom they wanted freedom from Russian oppression that's why NATO expanded in response to them not because NATO wanted to expand it's because because in order to stabilize

you have to you had to be able to provide investment and to get investment people needed security and they were living in fear of Russia coming back now when did Putin decide to come Back soon as he became president in 1999 at the speech uh he made in the in auration of president kochma in Ukraine Putin said Ukraine and Russia we're more Than Brothers we are in each other's Souls Poland sent its National Security advisor to see me after that said he's trying to restore the Soviet Union he's coming after us so this is a

leld ambition by Mr Putin and he's seen weakness in the west repeatedly and uh that weakness has Encouraged him to move and it's going to continue until the west shows strength and that strength means providing much more to Ukraine bringing Ukraine into NATO and saying to Mr Putin very directly look stop stop we're not interested in strategic arms discussions we're not interested in investing in your economy we're not interested in having nice conversations in Switzerland with you until you pull back return the children account for the Inductees bring to trial the war criminals that have

been indicted in Ukrainian courts and um you you all close to a trillion dollars in destruction of our company country so peers these are very clear lines this is 1937 1938 and you would have heard the same kind of apologist for Hitler you would have heard them saying the peace in Versa was unfair and the the French and there's corruption and so forth there's Corruption in every government it's there in your government it's there in the United States it's there in Ukraine but it's never the same as it is in Russia where organized crime works

as an arm of the government connected to the intelligence agencies to assure that Putin and his cronies get what they want so um I think it's a very uh difficult time I don't know how the negotiations are going to turn out but uh but I would tell you this that um that Mr Trump's in A tough position because if he gives Putin what he wants he looks weak to the rest of the world yeah and if he looks to the rest rest of the world China is going to move um he's got a we've got

in the United States a window now to do something in the Middle East and I think Netanyahu probably will ask Mr Trump to do it and um POS a choice for the Iranian regime either knock off the hegemonial aspirations and shut down this uh this Arc of resistance including The weapons to the hoties or face the consequences with Iran you have to go to the source uh with Russia you have to stand firm we've had deterrence in place for 70 years we have nuclear weapons Putin doesn't want to use a nuclear weapon he's afraid of

nuclear weapons but he he's using them to threaten so people like your bearded guy whose name I didn't get um these are people who are repeating Russian talking points it's Exactly what the woman from Ukraine said now I will tell you that people in Ukraine are suffering and uh they would love an end to this conflict they didn't choose it it was forced on them but uh the only way it's going to be successfully resolved is by strong us leadership and Mr Trump is in a position where no matter what he said about ending the

war and in 24 hours he's in a position where he simply cannot and will not concede uh everything that Putin Wants he won't do it if he does um you won't make America great again you'll invite War elsewhere in the world so I see you brought in the rest of the panel here I'll stop well no you know what general I've I've interviewed you many times I've seen you interview many times I've never seen you quite this angry it feels to me like you're angry about where things angry about well appears I'm angry about hearing

the misinformation from some members of your Okay now I pleas can I explain something before you talk please sir I was at the beginning of NATO enlargement I was there at the beginning I talked to foreign leaders I set up the program as a staff officer in the Pentagon I was the NATO commander who went to Bulgaria and Romania and Estonia and lvia and they told me we've got to be in NATO they didn't say uh hey uh if you want us okay B you blah blah blah blah we said we don't want you it's

too Much of a problem they said please please help us and so that's exactly what happened that's how we got there in 2014 when Putin went into Crimea the ukrainians could have stopped it but they asked the United States what should we do and the United States told them give up Crimea why because we wanted Putin's cooperation in the Middle East uh and with Iran to stop Iran's nuclear program When Putin went further in donos we provided information but we provided no lethal assistance to Ukraine for all these years the United States Administration was timid

in dealing with Putin it's like one member of the administration said recently of the Biden Administration said oh we never expected that nuclear weapons I mean o woo nuclear weapons have been the foundation for Western Security since the end of the second world war we've Had near confrontations with the Soviets and because American Presidents didn't back down we didn't have War now Mr Trump has put himself in an extremely difficult position but uh all of our talk about Ukraine and and providing telling Ukraine in advance are you going to have to give up your territory

and uh by by the way you're not going to be a member of NATO let's not do any this right now let's put the forces let's get the Forces in Ukraine the weapons and support they need so that the people who have already been mobilized can have these weapons and provide the reserves that are necessary in Ukraine let's leave an open-ended commitment for Mr Trump let's tell the ukrainians It Strike to your heart's content in Russia you get no Sanctuary Mr Putin you started this you pay the price and then let's go into the talk

with understanding what we want we want all Of Ukraine's land back we want reparations we want the children return we want the missing people accounted for uh and we want the war criminals put on trial and then we can talk about sanctions relief no sanctions relief until the conditions are satisfied and uh you know it's very hard for democracies to be able to to stand up to a man like Putin he doesn't have to worry about reelection but we need the leadership in the west I've seen it in Some countries macron sometimes comes off very

strong Britain has come off very strong in this and uh right now the Biden Administration is trying to Surge support into Ukraine and I think president Trump when he comes in is going to realize that whatever his relationship is with Mr Putin and however many times he's called him U he's not going to easily uh give in and sacrifice Ukraine he can't afford to and uh Putin's already threatened him Pier Putin's already told him uh that he's worried about his safety that's like Tony Soprano is saying to you I'm really worried about the the way

you're walking across the street so I'm not angry Piers except that there's a lot of misinformation out can I can I get in here and respond now please yeah okay General thank you just if you don't mind I'll bring the others in I've got to say you have articulated exactly what I've been feeling this entire time and I've Started to think I was going completely mad but to have somebody with your experience particularly about from the very start of NATO outlining what I believe has been the way this has all played out is actually quite

reassuring to me that I've not gone nuts let me bring in Chen because you've not had a chance to to respond for a while Scot Scott I'm gonna come to you SC Scott Scott Scott I will come to you after CH but I must I must let Chen have his say Chen you've been listening to all this very different opinions but what is your reaction yeah I want to tell you my thoughts uh and then I actually would love to ask General Clark a question and so look I understand both sides of this uh equation

and so if you're the ukrainians imagine if uh if some other Nation had taken 20% of America would we want to give up would you want to oh yeah it's okay just take Alabama Mississippi Texas Etc it's fine no we'd hate it and we'd fight forever right so I understand that on the other hand you know when General Clark starts talking about the nuclear weapons I get super scared there H because what if Trump's Bluff gets called at some point Trump's main Bluff is oh yeah you better not mess with me I'm crazy I I'll

I'll I'll make this war much bigger if you mess with me yeah but what if Putin says yeah go ahead well then we're in a lot of trouble right Because I don't want to get involved in a war like this I don't want to get involved with nuclear weapons Etc on the other hand your point about Russian AGG ression is definitely true I I I can't stand these people starting Wars taking territory and and and it breaks my heart to see it the kidnap children Etc so but General Clark the question I wanted to ask

you and you know how much I respect you and and we we have a relationship before and by the way the audience Should know General Clark is the one that called out the neocons for trying to invade seven countries at once uh including the Iraq War and so he's earned a lot of respect by doing that but General Clark this is a genuine question which is okay but if we go with what you're saying how long do we fight how long does Ukraine fight how how much money do we spend how many years of war

do we have to endure and what if Ukraine just Doesn't win so we're let's say we go another two years five years 20 years how do we resolve it if Ukraine can't win well I think um what you have to do is understand that this war will go on until Putin believes he can't win so all the discussion in the west about how to preemptively surrender territory and all this is it all feeds Putin's appetite he understands from all this discussion that the West is weakening in its will and therefore if he just keeps shoving

Soldiers forward uh that eventually uh the West will comply and and cut off assistance to Ukraine and tell Ukraine uh good luck uh hope you enjoy being being part of Poland again because that's his aim he wants he doesn't really care about Lviv what he wants is the North Coast of the Black Sea and Odessa and of course kke and keev and so forth and uh and and and and then he wants the rest of Europe Eastern Europe that used to be under Soviet Dominion he Needs this in order to be able to confront China

and uh and this is the ultimate fear of of Russia and its leadership and they know they can't confront China unless they have control over Eastern Europe including the baltics and Poland and uh and the rest of the Balkan Peninsula and so it's a long-term geostrategic game and uh and Jen I I just tell you this um there's no American soldiers over there getting killed and most of the money That's been appropriated by the United States has gone to buy new weapons in the United States we're giving them the old stuff the old a attacks

we've just recently even reprioritized our military sales program we're still selling uh eight tacks to Morocco now why does Morocco need 68 tacks I I don't know but uh we're selling stuff all Patriots all over the world that stuff should go to Ukraine as long as the United States stands firm we won't have nuclear Weapons and nuclear war Putin doesn't want it either but um he does believe right now that we will collapse and he will continue to threaten the nuclear and play the nuclear card yeah because that's the way the Russians play it yeah

and so you just have to stand firm against it and you need strong leadership and you need the American people behind you and what you have to understand is that Putin understands how to manipulate public opinion in every Country in Europe there are people there saying just like uh one of the gentlemen on this panel said uh you know this is crazy and people are getting killed and I'm tired of seeing uh people dying and we've got to have peace in 1937 38 in Europe everybody had fresh memories of the first world war it was

a horrible experience a whole generation of British young men were wiped out uh the French got it got so bad that in in one group of French divisions they Pulled out every 10th Soldier and shot him for cowardice nobody wanted a repeat of the first world war and so um Hitler occupied the Ryland against inst Hitler rearmed Hitler rebuilt the military and at every stage there were people who said well this is really dangerous but uh but please we can't think about it it can't be another world war so we're revisiting this in a slightly

different form today um if we believe in democracy if we believe in what we set up if we Believe in the lessons we learned from the second world war then we've got this stand firm against Mr Putin President Biden should have said to him look Bud U you come after Ukraine I promise you you're G to lose you're G to lose but he didn't say that and he's never said that no he hasn't that's the the policy has to start okay General thank you very much let me bring Scott Halton in to respond to that

because you you know you're being compared to the people back In the late 30s who just didn't see the D of adol hit Nazis it's completely Preposterous and it's the Refuge of Scoundrels who have run out of arguments I think anyone could see that it's the same thing as uh this endless claim I mean isn't this just a talking point that anyone who disagrees is repeating Russian talking points I don't sit around watching RT all day memorizing what the Russian regime says and repeating that I wrote a Book that's 775,000 words most of it is

American gray beards talking about how they know better than the thing that they're about to do and then doing it anyway and you know one of the things that I talk about in there although I couldn't find too much about General Clark's role in this but when there was a debate and I'd like to pose this in the form of a question to him when there was a debate in the 1990s in the Bill Clinton administration About whether to do NATO expansion or whether to do the partnership for peace was it not the Secretary of

defense William Perry and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff John shy kashvi with the help of General Clark weren't they the ones who argued the Pentagon for peace let's do the partnership for peace instead of NATO expansion and it was Richard Holbrook and talbat and Lake who outclassed the Pentagon uh in office politics and forced through NATO Expansion instead and the William Perry John shy kashvi and I believe at the time Wesley Clark argument was we don't want to redraw the dividing line in Europe yes it's true a lot of these countries that

used to be dominated by Soviet Communists in the battle days of course want to join NATO but we got to look at what's good for us and what's most important for us is that we keep a decent relationship a stable relationship with Russia and one great Way to do that would be to as they said they were going to do at the time peers turn NATO into to a political organization sort of like the EU plus America but then they would have instead of an alliance because there's no enemy anymore now we would have the

partnership for peace a new security architecture and Russia the Russian Federation and Ukraine would be members of it and then that way Ukraine's neutrality as a obviously extremely Important country locked between European uh you know civilization and Russia there will not the controversy will be settled with a a a pseudo a like a de facto permanent neutrality there and then what happened was the Hawks won the argument and then as all of the gray beards said at the time oh no you see what we're doing we're just redrawing the line the policy has gone from

containment to friends to neoc containment this is before W bush ever Even came to town okay well let me all right let me put that point then to to to someone by the way for the record does not have a Gray beard uh General Clark but would you like to respond to what youve just heard it it's actually you're right we had a multiplicity of interests with the so with Russia uh at uh the time the Clinton Administration came in and the first interest was to control the nuclear weapons that were in Kazakhstan Ukraine and

and the loose nukes argument took priority and um we got legislation passed the non Luger agreement agement uh Amendment um basically we put billions of dollars into helping control the uh Soviets former Soviets nuclear Arsenal and as part of that we assured Ukraine that when they gave up their nuclear weapons uh and Russia signed on to this that their boundaries would be respected you see there in in 1991 Ukraine had already voted uh in Favor of Independence the people in Ukraine never wanted to be under Russian control it's a separate culture it's a different language

if you look up and and I don't know if you speak Russian but if apparently you don't but I do and I thought well I'll just go you know brush up on my Russian and be able to speak Ukrainian it's a different language and um it's a different culture it's a different history Ukraine's been independent in the past and it was the One of the first subjects of Russia's Imperial Ambitions going back to Catherine the Great and the way that it operates is um it it it's not a nice colonialism it's an ugly colonialism in

which Russia says I'm in charge here I want a part of your business and uh and they buy people and they influence and and I've met many Ukrainian leaders over the years including some who've made billions of dollars off their associations with Russia so um when the United States looked at this in the early 1990s we were hopeful that there would actually be democratic reform in Russia but it it didn't happen and as Bill Clinton traveled abroad in 1993 and in 1994 and he looked at it himself and talked to these East European leaders who

were emerging They begged Clinton to give us the protection of NATO and so that weekend that you're referring to when Al Gore made the speech that Richard Holbrook wrote in Berlin and yes I uh I I checked with my bosses in Pentagon I said no of course we're not in charge we don't want NATO enlarg we got enough problems don't don't don't bring any other issues uh partnership for peace had already been established Russia was a member of it and uh and and and and and I said to my boss I said they keep putting

this thing in here about enlarging NATO uh and I keep scratching it out and it keeps coming back in sure enough uh vice President Gore gave that speech spe and he gave it at the direction of President of the United States because President Clinton himself in going through Eastern Europe had looked and listened to the leadership there he knew the history he knew Foreign Relations he knew foreign policy and he determined that the best Avenue for peace forward was to both provide security for Eastern Europe through opportunities for NATO membership if they wanted it and

work With Russia and give Russia a special relationship with NATO so we formed the NATO Russia Council the NATO Russia Council had all the members of NATO listening to Russia and all of its concerns um in 1997 1998 1999 I was there sitting in that Council when uh former Russian foreign minister yevan primov gave us a lecture Russia has no permanent friends Russia has only permanent interests and I'm he's looking at me and and I know who who he was he's The guy who basically started the Palestinian terrorist organizations as a KGB agent um and

he knew who I was and we knew each other and um and I knew what he was saying he was saying that Russia didn't appreciate NATO wouldn't cooperate with NATO and was going to go its own way he later ran for president lost to Vladimir Putin but the point is that the United States worked assiduously to try to bring stability to Eastern Europe including working with Russia and it was Russia that really didn't want this from the beginning we we actually had hopes that Russia might join NATO but from the beginning of Putin's time he

crushed democracy crushed dissent and stepbystep Consolidated power using the the Mafia the Russian mafia and the intelligence agencies and so we are in the position where we are today I've always wished I could talk to Putin and say look it's not that we disrespect you we we like Russia we love Russian music culture your history there's so many great things that have come out of Russia but you can't step on other people you can't treat people that way you can't invade other countries we're not going to invade you there's no threat here I was with

the Russian foreign minister when we were dealing with the conventional foreign forces in Europe treaty in 1998 and Minister Ivanov said uh well under this treaty in a time of of Detention NATO could put a a a division in Slovakia on the borders of Russia or of bellarus and um and I said Mr Minister one NATO division on the borders of bellarus is a threat to Russia come on now Ivanov laughed he knew it wasn't a threat yeah he knew it and so you know you you just I'm I'm not accusing anybody of reading and

repeating what Russia's telling you to say I'm saying there's a lot of misinformation out here yeah but U we Are where we are and the only way can I ask just one short follow up there very very quickly we have to wrap but very quickly yeah sure yeah very briefly I wonder uh General Clark if you're aware that your then boss William Perry he later told the guardian that it was the greatest regret of his life that he did not do every single thing he could to stop Clinton from going down the path of NATO

expansion here's what I'll do Scot I'll Just ask General Clark and please be brief if you don't mind General Clark but was Clinton right or wrong looking with hindsight well I think Clinton was right in hindsight because um when you unravel what actually happened with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and I don't have the greatest respect for for Dr Perry but um the KGB there's a book written on this called Putin's people and then you can read it but basically The KGB saw it collapsing in the late 1980s they they didn't trust gorbachov they

moved the money to the West when democracy started most of the people in the political parties in Russia were Former Intelligence agents they'd been uh schooled in how to campaign they formed different political parties to make it appear as though uh there were different parties but uh in reality they were anxious to regain power so we never really followed through with the Opportunity that the dissolution of the Soviet Union presented to us right I mean U you know we could have sent democracy trainers into the Soviet Union we didn't we had the National Endowment for

democracy but it was just scratching the surface we never really reached out to the Russian people it's a different culture they don't understand it uh they're isolated and just like the American people don't understand a Foreign policy neither do the Russian people a un Diplomat told me once he said you know you Americans are like the Russians most of your people don't even have passports you live far from National borders you don't have any appreciation for other nationalities we could have extended a stronger hand in friendship and I'm talking not at Clinton I'm talking about

George H bush when it happened yeah we just didn't do it and um we had a very brief window to Make a great difference we didn't um I think that the protection we provided through NATO membership for the countries of Eastern Europe and that we want to extend to Ukraine has been really important if you look I drove um a couple of times from Eastern Poland into Ukraine in eastern Poland the houses are painted the the fields are cultivated everything looks good as soon as you go across that border uh the difference in prosperity is

marked and It's marked because uh Ukraine hasn't had the protection of the European Union and NATO and that's why the people in 2014 2013 and maidon they saw this Ukraine and Poland were economically similar in the 1980s but by 2014 Poland's GDP per capita was two or three times what it was in Ukraine simply because that Poland had the association with the West with its security provided by NATO so um we've got to get through what is more than a Bump in a road it's a critical period and international policy where we're going to decide

whether the rule of law prevails or we're going to go back to the 19th century competition between Empires and Emperors and uh and to hell with the people underneath and that's where we are right I've got to leave it there I don't want to actually I could I could honestly do another two or three hours of this it has been an absolutely fascinating Conversation with all of you I really appreciate you all joining me I've got to leave it there reluctantly but uh thank you very much indeed hey thanks everybody PE nice to be with

you thank you thank you General well just before we go a quick look at what on Earth has gone on in South Korea over the past 48 hours is the American political analyst on inter Korean Affairs Robert Kelly Robert thanks so much for joining me um what The hell is going on in South Korea explain to a Layman what the reality is about this this extraordinary development in the last 34 hours yeah it looks like the president tried to declare martial law over fairly minor stuff which is to say gridlock in the uh Parliament and

the opposition's investigation of his appointees and um his wife and he's apparently quite sensitive about uh the perception that his wife is corrupt this has been sort Of a running issue in South Korea for a while now and uh he just wildly overreacted right I mean there was just no sense this was coming at all I mean there's nothing in the Korean media about this a couple days ago you know he did it at 10:00 at night half the country woke was asleep woke up the next morning they were like what was going on you

know I mean it was just a complete shock out of the blue which you've seen in the media coverage all over the world Nobody really had any sense that this was coming at all and and you know because it was so drastic and sharp and extreme I think it you know collapsed almost as rapidly because the South Korean Parliament was like just like you like what the hell is this right and and they voted against it is it likely that this guy will now in to be be removed from office sooner rather than later yes

I would imagine South Korea went through an entire impeachment cycle With a president just seven years ago so there's a practiced template if you will for removing a president they've done it and this is far this his offenses are far greater than than what she did seven years ago her name was Puck and hey y has gone far beyond that right I mean this is widely considered to be an enormous overreaction and I would be amazed if he doesn't resign in the next 10 days if he if he chooses to stay and fight it out

I imagine the impeachment Will be much faster than last time I bet he'll be gone by the end of January there are three different countries who be looking at this with great particular personal interest the United States you have 25,000 troops there on that border North Korea obviously who might be sensing an opportunity of very weak uh and vulnerable South Korea and China presume would be looking at all this as well is there likely to be any uh larger repercussion from this involving any of Those three countries because it collapsed so fast I'm not really

sure whenever the the South Koreans have sort of trouble there's concern the North Koreans might do something the North Koreans are a bit stretched right now because they're so they're getting pulled into this Ukraine mess right I would be surprised if the north korean's taking advantage of this there hasn't been anything in the last 24 hours um but you know they might I Mean the North Koreans are great provocators um the Americans I'm a little bit surprised that the Biden Administration didn't really say too much initially I think the Americans were kind of Ted on

this I think the Biden people are going to get some criticism for that but I think to a certain extent that's kind of understandable because nobody really knew quite what this was right it's like all of a sudden president goes on Martial law and everybody's like what is this just like you said and and so I think the Biden people will get a little bit of sort of Grace on that one and again it sort of fell fell apart so rapidly so you know normality has kind of come back you know the stock market slipped

the wand the currency has slipped but I don't see any big foreign breach at the moment um because it fell apart so rapidly but you know if the tanks had stayed on the streets then Yeah I mean it would be huge opportunity for China Robert Kelly thank you so much what a great snapshot assessment of it all I really appreciate you joining me thank you thanks for having me