uh joining us now is Natasha halor she's a legal director at the UK lawyers for Israel she is a a barrister and also an expert in international law very useful to have you here uh today Natasha on a day when there's talk about you know whether or not the israelies have broken international law it's rather obvious that hamus have with that horrific Massacre more and more I mean just horrific um stomach churning details coming out about what was done to innocent civilians elderly babies children families on that day on October the 7th um just speaking
specifically to what Antonio guis the UN Secretary General has said just first of all he says he says the attacks by hamus didn't happen in a vacuum uh and when you look at the 56 years of suffocating occupation is he basically saying there there is some although he says it wasn't a justification for what happened October 7th that it is offering a a reason for it if not a justification for it well it does uh appear that he is seeking to rationalize this appalling Slaughter I think you're absolutely uh correct about that now uh we
all of course want to see peace and a cation of violence but these calls only encourage uh further terrorism and the targeting of Israeli civilians by Iranian Terror proxies uh so Guera should resign these comments render him unfit to stay in office and anyone who calls for a ceasefire before Hamas is destroyed is responsible for more deaths that will inevitably occur I'm sure that many people have the best of intentions here and that they do not realize the consequence of these actions which are playing in to the hands of Hamas just like every previous occasion
well Britain and the US have said that they they would like a pause in in action to make get Aid to civilians in Gaza um particularly you know help to the hospitals and the like water in but that's very different from a ceasefire isn't it because as you say a ceasefire would benefit Hamas they're the ones now under attack and and also it all sense and purposes I mean the reason why they took the hostages it would appear would be to try and prevent there being some sort of ground Invasion and this sort of attack
the reason why they don't want civilians to leave Northern Gaza is so that there will be civilian deaths so that they can urge the International Community to call the ceasefire that would be playing into hamas's tactics you're absolutely right and that is the motivation uh for the war crimes that Hamas has committed as as well as uh its genocidal intent towards Jews uh but more than um these issues I think it's important to recognize that Israel has been prevented from removing the threat uh in 2008 in 2012 in 2014 in 2021 after each of those
ceasefires things got worse and these calls for further ceasefires is it a case simply where Israel ceases and Hamas fires because this is what we have been seeing repeatedly uh yesterday in the Lords I thought it was important that Lord F Army um stated that asking a state uh to act uh in this fashion uh is um asking it to uh give up its lawful defensive objectives uh and give up before those have been met it's simply asking a state to stop defending itself and and that is inexcusable well this is the thing there's a
lot of talk about the rules of war and and while everyone will say well actually not everyone people celebrating the horrific events on October the 7th but most right King people will say you know of course what did they a terrorist group what Hamas did was inexcusable unacceptable clearly you know a a a crime however there are also a lot of people claiming um that what Israel is doing in response not just the cutting off of the the the food and water and fuel uh to civilians in uh in in Gaza and an attempt to
cut it off to to Hamas is a war crime is against international law it's Mass punishment with air strikes um do you believe that there are as Anton Gua says clear violations of international humanitarian law in Gaza absolutely not uh the only violations of humanitarian law are those that Hamas is uh perpetrating not just against Israelis but against its own people in Gaza um and in fact we've had reports that I can see now of aerial photographs of Hamas controlled oil tanks in Gaza uh which were reportedly being withheld from hospitals by Hamas as a
means of applying similar International pressure uh on Israel so they're using that fuel for their Terror infrastructure and withholding it from hospitals and the UN as a whole uh has a complicity in these crimes we saw two weeks ago a tweet by unra uh that confirmed Hamas had stolen from it 24,000 liters of fuel that tweet was subsequently deleted so it's not just Antonio gutterz but the UN Administration and un bodies that are complicit it seems in many of these atrocities what is the Midway point because I think most people would say they still don't
want the people of Gaza the civilians particularly when know half the population is our children to to suffer in this way when we've seen you know the order that evacuation order um again we're going to be bombing where Hamas are and the tunnels are you need to get out of Northern Gaza bearing in mind the Israelis have also an evacuation order for Northern Israel for people who are at risk of air strikes from Hezbollah in the north um but they ask people to move South but there is still bombing by Israel in the south of
the country that doesn't tie in at all with Israel's war aims when they talk about you know wanting to take on Hamas in North you can't order people to evacuate from one part of the country to another that's safe and then bomb that part of the country well let me be clear that Israel doesn't have the power to order anyone in Gaza to do everything this is to do anything this is part of the reason that Hamas have over the last 16 years built this Terror infrastructure there uh with which to pursue their genocidal aims
but what Israel has done just like any law abiding state is provide warnings of the strikes that it is taking those strikes are assessed under the principles of international law importantly the principle of proportionality uh to make sure that civilian lives are saved to the utmost quite the contrary of hamas's behavior but I think I do need to stress here that um what we have been seeing uh I think comes down to a failure to stand up to the demands of the International Community World pressure has ultimately caused Israel to make dangerous security concessions over
the last 20 years that have led to this atrocity and one example of this is in relation to work permits for Palestinians to enter Israel between uh January and August this year there were 400,000 entries from Gaza into Israel mostly Palestinians coming to work in Israel and this played a significant role in hamas's planning and Gathering of specific detailed family-based information intelligence about their targets across 30 uh sites in the south of Israel these terrorists Julia came AR armed with exact Maps detailing um communities households how many people how many children per family and what
they were instructed to do to them and so much of this is uh linked back to the sort of international pressure uh the misrepresentation of history and the misrepresentation of international law that we have seen I can give one example no do continue yes please but if I give one example of AIA lipshin who was in charge of the regional uh Council in chaaha he led a project for the arazim industrial Zone to provide 10,000 jobs for Palestinians from Gaza and renewable energy for the Gaza Strip a program for fresh water with pipes that Hamas
uprooted for their rocket manufacturer on the 7th of October he was murdered by Palestinian terrorists along with other members of his his family a man who dedicated his life to helping gazen civilians was slaughtered uh and one example that's only one example of Israelis um bending over backwards to to support Gaza and paying with their blood you mentioned the term proportionality and that's been quite a big issue over the last week about what is proportional when we've seen for instance the number of deaths claimed by hammer and again a lot of people say well these
coming from Aid agencies and un and they're verified but of course they come from hospitals which are under the control of hammers we have to you know point out that we don't we cannot independently really confirm those and the talk also of self-defense and whether or not what Israel is doing right now is legitimately self-defense or is it Revenge now I'm personally The View that when you've had your civilians population slaughtered in the way they have I'm not entirely sure the Revenge isn't an appropriate response personally um but in terms of international law as a
legal expert what what would dictate what would count as proportionality and what would count as an act of self-defense as opposed to an offensive act by Israel well Israel is permitted to act uh in so far as it is necessary to pursue the military objective of getting rid of Hamas and ensuring that nothing like this can ever happen anything is any any anything that is necessary to do that would be allowed let if I can finish the first qualifier is that it is necessary um to achieve a legitimate military objective of acting in self-defense uh
then the second principle of international law is that Israel is required to distinguish between uh civilian objects protected objects and combatants which it does uh routinely and this is a matter of public record any International lawyer and Military uh expert uh worth their salt will recognize this uh that is also I I should stress um Apparent from the statistics of previous exchanges the according to the United Nations the global combatant to civilian ratio uh with conflicts around the world is nine uh to one that's a disturbing nine civilians uh killed for every one combatant in
the last Israeli operation in Janine uh only uh several months ago uh the ratio was 0.6 civilians to every one combatant so more combatants k killed than civilians and you're absolutely right in uh respect of the numbers that are coming out of the Hamas controlled Ministry of Health this is Hamas propaganda they do not distinguish between combatants and civilians whereas Israel does and that reflects the third principle that it adheres to and that is proportionality this is not a numbers game it is not about weighing up deaths on each side proportionality requires Israel to consider
each strike through its legal team uh within the Army in the military Advocate General core uh that it sits outside of the military command and they assess the proportionality of each strike by weighing up the anticipated military advantage against the anticipated collateral damage harm to civilians and in doing so they are recognized as going over and above the requirements of the laws of armed conflict because in addition to uh their proportionality assessment they issue warnings of their strikes warnings that give Hamas tip offs of course as to where they will be focusing their strikes and
humas terrorist infrastructure as well as the civilians but the focus from uh the citizen Army of the IDF a democratic state where the decisions of uh the Army and Strikes are subject to accountability through the courts through a uh very active NGO scene we have seen through every previous military operation that Israel doesn't just adhere to the laws of armed conflict but sets a standard that very few armies around indeed much public scrutiny within Israel as well it's been an absolute pleasure having you company really appreciate you joining us your time and your expertise Natasha
houseof she's legal director at UK lawyers for Israel International
