Well Good afternoon everyone Welcome to thisan on platforms privacy and workers right my name isam execu director Which isiv society organization working at the intersection of Human Rights and Technology um We are glad to participate in this session Together with is prof F thank researcher here Future profs um And we Are very glad Because Our proposal today is Uh the proposal we presented and was merged happily with This proposal byer is to present um some insight and reflect on the results of a research that We have developed in the digital and that myleague Lucia Will
present in some minutes that analy Human Rights commitments of Delivery Food companies And marketplaces present inzil Colombia eador and Bolivia and we are happy that We have this merge proposal so we can expand Our reflections the reflections from Our research into the impacts of digital platforms into labor also And I will invite immediately with whom I will have the pleasure to share the moderation also to present himself and to Start this panel Just before Giving him the floor Uh the structure of the panel will be the following We Will have Two rounds of interventions by
Our brilliant panelist today the First One Will have Seven minutes you have Seven minutes for your intervention then I will present some discussion questions for Us to continue conversation and you have other five minutes for intervention and then open the floor for your thoughts reactions and questions So pass Now to So You can introduce yourself in Our guests today so um good afternoon everyone And Be Welcome to Our panel As you can see We have a lot of topics to discuss Because of Our merg Now we're Going To talk about platforms accountability transparency privacy and
labor My name is said I Hold a phd in Law from Federal University of Rio Grande And also I am a researcher here at cts fgv Maybe a Professor in the future If There is someone from fgv here please Just Let Me Know good I'm Very Happy to be here honor to be here actually to discuss very really important topics regard Will ri he is a professor of labor Law at Federal University ofio de J and in the postgraduate program in Law at the institution he conducted post doctoral research at le [Música] France he is
a research for the Fair Work project in brazil and has extensive Work In The Field he is also a labor prosecutor here in So professor The floor is yours Thank you very much thank you Thank you so good afternoon everyone firstly I would like to thank fgv and gu and professor nio for the invitation It's an honor to be here to taking Part In Can you the div of platform Ways In which they operate the First question We have to answer is what are we Talking About When we refer to digital platforms there are at
least two distinct meanings the First meaning is to understand digital platforms as electronic infrastructures for organizing and carrying out Any business for example Uber Which relies on a digital infrastructure to carry out its Passenger Transportation business Ifood Is another example it has a digital platform to operate its sales business and deliver the goods to the end consumer If its restaurant clients so decide these companies Are Not intermediaries they provide and guarantee the Quality of their Services the Second sense is that of digital platforms as a Mark Place Style business model in this sense We have
companies like get ninjas which is a real platform Where service providers And service takers Meet to do business guppy Is another example They are a business that mediates between people looking for a Job and companies looking for employees in the First sense the companies are employers or have employer likee characteristics in the Second sense they act as employment or recruitment agencies It's a common misconception that these companies shall be regulated In the same way however there are principle based regulations for the protection of workers Data that can be applied to both types of digital platforms
this So let's Start with brazilian Law what it says the protection of the workers Data is no stranger to brazilian labor Law the brazilian labor Law has a provision stating that employers cannot make Any designable entries about employees in their employment Records Records the labor courts have Always interpreted this legal provision expensively they have Made It Clear that employers are not allowed to pass on Any kind of information to other potential employers It's all It's also unlawful For employers To Access workers Medical Data including information from compulsory Medical examinations conducted during the employment relationships this
applies even When workers Are seen by the Company doctor All the worker files Medical files They are classifi They are confidential to the employer even If It's the doctor It's from the Company next one please the transparency of the algorithm including the Collection and processing of Data is protected by the very nature of the algorithm in labor relations as the algorithm stipulates the working conditions and its rules it constitutes Kind of workplace code of conduct and is therefore according to Case Law part of the employment Contract as with Any Contract the principle of good Faith
applies all Contract conditions must be Clear and information must be made available to the other contracting Party So The algorithm must be transparent as part of the Contract the International labor organization has published the code of practice on the protection of workers personal Data Which was released in 1997 While we cannot cover the entire recommendation here we can discuss some of the general principles that the document lays down the First principle is Clear personal Data must be processed lawfully and fairly only For reasons directly relevant To Our workers employ It is not perm to process
Data That's not strictly related to the employment Contract the subsequent principle States that even If the Data Collection is justified its use must Stick to its original purpose And cannot Be Used For any other objec automated autom processing of a worker personal Data must not be the basis for decisions concerning that worker this prevents automatic automatic punishments such such as suspension or dismissal of workers as well as passing onse worse paid Jobs to workers based Solely on decisions made by the algorithm It is imperative that personal Data collected by electronic monitoring is not the soul
factor Used To evaluate worker performance There is this Famous case of deliver algorithm Which was Found to be discriminatory by an italian Court Because it created a form of willful blindness by not forcing situations In which it could discriminate Against people who were ill pregnant or exercising a right right Such as a strike the ilo code of practice also requires employer to reduce the kind of and amount of personal Data collected as much as possible and improve the Ways In which they protect the privacy of workers this shows How clearly the ilo understands That the
massive and widespread Collection of Data is an Evil in itself in relation to transparency the of PR States that workers and their Representatives must be kept informed of Any Data Collection process the rules That govern that process and their Rights another important IL document is the Convention number 181 Which deals with the private employment agencies the definitions of unemployment agency fit perfectly into the Second type of digital platform we discussed at the this leg legal document provides that the Data May only be collected in relation to the qualifications and Professional experience of the workers concerned
and any other information that it's directly relevant to the job you can ask in Job interview If the person is married If the person have children or anything like that Because It's not related Job next some quick final remarks It is Clear that in both senses Uh companies must be held accountable for the Data they collect from workers secondly Any Regulation of digital platforms must align with the standards already set for the protection of workers Data platforms workers are workers so they deserve the same standards thank you Looking Forward For To The discussion Thank you
professor carell for your um thought provoking presentation I have a lot of questions but we Go ahead and then we Come Back with questions by the end of the final of all presentations so um Our next Panelist is professor Jessica pid She is a digital sociologist at the University of Nel institute of sociology She is a postdoctoral researcher conducting investigations at the intersection of sociology of algorithms and the sociology of work She holds a Master in sociology from the University of luzan and a phd in digital humanities from the polytechnique additionally She is the director
of personal data.io as ngo specializing in the exercise of Data Rights and priv protection in this World is important to mention that She has led audits of gig platforms such as deliver and Uber contributing to fair working conditions for gig workers and more broadly to debates in digital policy professor the floor is yours Thank you very much for Being here with us Hi Thanks um um to All the organizers to the public for Being here or there um I'm sorry I cannot be there I'm a bit Far um First of all just to say I'm
not Professor not yet I'm a lecturer teaching at the University of Nel and As you said um a sociologist but with an interdisciplinary background and I'm also here Because of Uh this position of director at the ngo personal Data io that actually gives me experience on on the topic and um so so I just want to Say that what I will present is Uh a concrete case of Uh Data governance and Data transparency Uh for Uber for Uber workers and this was in Geneva so Uh It is important to know also that I'm Uh based
in switzerland and Uh Our actions are in europe but more recently We have started to collaborate with researchers in in chile in Colombia um Because I'm actually swiss and venezuelan um so um That's why is also a pleasure to be here with you and to um discuss more about What's happening in latin America with these digital platforms so um I will share my screen Now and Um to go concretely to What We have done um so at personal Data io We have collaborated with a technical Partner called esa Ai Which help Us To develop This
tool or this actually platform Uh called dig Power Academy that you can see here and Uh in this platform um we help anyone to recover their personal Data and analyze it so we actually um let's say provide technical skills or with Tools to be able to recover Understand and analyze personal Data and This is possible Thanks to Data Access Rights um and this what you see now is the case of Uber Uh drivers personal Data so in Uh in 2022 Uh there was a reclassification of Uber Driver and also uat Delivery workers in geneva as
employees and not Anymore considered as independent contractors um and actually this gave them the possibility to Uh um claim their Uh labor Rights as Employees and this was possible retrospectively meaning that since minimum wage was applied in geneva um drivers were Had to have their Social Security paid the benefits of labor Rights um and Uber has to be um in compliance with this so well um It was a big Big event there sociopolitical event in the sense That Uh there were State negotiations with Uber Uh there was a commission that was created Where unions were
able to negotiate so this social Dialogue was very important for drivers and a Main Problem was that Uber drivers didn't have Enough information about their working conditions neither the State neither The unions Who were disconnected of how um digital platforms work and also or we might call them also infrastructures I was as was pointed of the um professor and also What was important was that We didn't know exactly Uh How the the platform works in General to be able to understand the conditions of the Uber drivers so in this situation we came with the ngo
and we helped them Uh the Uber drivers to exercise the Data Access Rights in switzerland Uh We have the swiss Data protection Law and this allows anyone to recover a copy of their Data but these Rights Are Not known as in many countries and Uh these Rights are very very hard to make them actionable basically You're like ok I have these Rights Where do I get them How I can exercise Uh um the Data Access right or subject Access request Who should I contact How do I Do it and so and we help through this
process and then When they Got the Data It was another Problem How can I read this Data the Uber drivers mainly have their phones some Don't even have computer Uh the Data was super complex to understand with some errors to verify etc etc but What It was important was that There was a lot a lot of Data and in this Data important information Was geolocation and geolocation allowed Us to help the Uber drivers To Know Where do they work at What time in at the millisecond so we knew Uh Second per Second like What Was
the Driver doing since they left home they went to the center Uh waited for a ride to be assigned by Uber accepted it Uh When to the pickup Uh point of the client drove The client to the destination and then started Again a New um working routine and here what you see is a visualization um This is the case of Paris Where we also uh uh took the same actions Helping Uber drivers during their rec classification as employees to understand the working conditions and This is something that is happening in many countries and That's why
It's more a global um Problem that We have to tackle Together I think so This is a map of um Maybe you see it a bit small there but I will describe it you see in the map Yellow and red points Where the Uber Driver was working at specific Uh Times So You can zoom and if you click One of the points in there Everything is interactive you You're going to see Uh the precise time Uh Let me try to get it well You also Sorry It's not here You Will see it also It's the
precise time of pick up the clients the date the duration of the Driving Uh order or trip um etc so this Was the First visualization of the working conditions of Uber drivers and It was very important Because it means that this Data was knowledge for them and It was knowledge to be able to negotiate with Uber Uh What was supposed to be paid to them and also to prove to the State that sometimes Uh Uber was not providing right Data the right information or the the good basis and good calculations to Make um the the
Social Security payments to make the also the labor Rights be in order so Uh This is Uh I will stop here Now Uh This is the the Tools We have created for Uber Every Tab has different uh statistics uh the number of strips they have made When they worked If It was more on wednesday or on Saturday this was very very important information for them for the state and for the lawyers and for the unions That were um defending the right of the Uber Drivers and um Now This is available for many other platforms Because
And This is my Uh Last message That I will Give here um during this Uh presentation is that it's a collective Problem It's not only Uber drivers Problem It's Our Problem as clients that we don't have Access to Our Data and that we cannot make actionable Our Data Access right is a Problem for top managers for Doctors for professors Where actually in through platforms through more and more Automated and digitalized systems Our activity working activity Our whole workplace is been uh controlled uh tracked managed by Uh these algorithmic systems that are are Fed with Our
personal Data so Thank you very much Again and I'm happy Looking Forward to discuss more with you during the the question sessions Thank you Jessica This is a very good way to continue conversation Um I will continue this round of intervention inviting Sierra to his intervention grai currently serves as the colombian Data protection Authority he has a phd in comparative public Law univ a University professor teaching undergraduate and graduate courses in Colombia and other countries in the region and he has served also as an auxiliary magistrate of the civil chamber of the supreme Court of
Justice And as a judge in the council of State Thank you please feel free To Do your intervention in English or slowly in Spanish so We all can follow your intervention Where How it's more comfortable to you Thank you so much Thank you very much cuando Lucía me invitó al panel miraba el título me acordaba que en el año 2017 2016 el consejo de estado francés Es el juez administrativo cada año publica un un reporte una investigación y ese año La investigación se denominaba la uberización del derecho eran las implicaciones que tenía el mundo del
Uber en el mundo de lo jurídico y hemos visto eh con nuestros dos intervinientes anteriores Cómo hay un impacto en derecho laboral y yo voy a referirme a dos dinámicas que se han desarrollado en la superintendencia la superintendencia es una policía administrativa una policía administrativa que tiene digamos varios Sectores un sector es policía administrativa de Mercado competencia policía administrativa de consumo y lo que yo trabajo policía administrativa de datos Y es para notar que esta discusión es transversal difícilmente puede ser solamente datos en necesariamente pues datos derecho laboral datos derecho del consumo datos derecho del
mercado y a veces todo consumo datos mercado y y y y y información Porque si algo anotaba y regreso al informe del Consejo de estado francés Es que lo uberización de la economía anotaba este informe del Consejo de estado cambia las reglas sobre las cuales se ha hecho mercado se ha hecho consumo se ha hecho competencia y aún se ha hecho fiscalización derecho fiscal O sea hay un cambio de paradigma estructural to esto implica una adaptación de las normas jurídicas algo que se denomina un modelo Desregularizado es la desregularización lo que hace que el negocio
sea altamente rentable como no adaptarme a reglas comoo generar contratos implícitos que se acaban en cualquier momento por ello me voy a referir a cinco decisiones de la superintendencia no son mías tiempo atrás dos sobre datos y tres sobre consumo un sobre datos prácticamente digamos todas estas están sobre una misma misma empresa en Colombia que es muy poderosa que se llama rapi que es Una empresa que nace que se en un espíritu de u y se dedica a la repartición de comida en una primera decisión que va a ser del 2019 la superintendencia sanciona esta
plataforma rapi por generar una serie de publicidad a sus consumidores utilizando sus datos Sin que los consumidores hayan autorizado Que sus datos sean utilizados para prospección comercial implementan sus datos para ellos generar un intercambio y solicitar servicio Pero además rapi genera dentro de esos datos algo que denomina la lista negra los malos consumidores es un sistema de puntuación lo que evidentemente lleva a la sic a sancionar a esta empresa no solamente por la ley de datos Sino por una práctica de discriminación y por no cumplir las finalidades a las cuales está está orientada como conservar
la dinámica de autorización hay una autorización unas finalidades para la uso de datos el segundo caso es muy interesante nuevamente rapi pero la si aquí desarrolla una doctrina que ya existe en el ordenamiento jurídico colombiano pero está en derecho societario no está en Derecho de los datos sino en derecho societario y habla del deber de corresponsabilidad de corresponsabilidad entre la empresa y la junta directiva particularmente el administrador en la medida que ha habido tanto incumplimiento de la empresa todos sabemos que en derecho de la competencia el incumplimiento a veces es rentable se incumplen y se
pagan las multas y en análisis económico resulta rentable Pagar la multa acá se toma una decisión y se le da una orden ya no solamente a rapi como persona moral sino al administrador de rapi como persona natural de que debe someterse a la ley de datos y se le ordena eso y porque esto digamos es es importante esto es importante porque si bien esa Norma ya existe en el código de comercio colombiano que es la ley 200 artículo 200 del Código de Comercio que habla que los administradores son responsables de las decisiones de su empresa
no es explícita en materia de datos pero en ese ejercicio de la desregularización de del derecho es necesario pensar lo jurídico de forma integral entonces traemos una norma de derecho societario la cual vamos a aplicar en materia de protección de datos para recordarle a una empresa un criterio de corresponsabilidad en Materia de protección el tercer caso ya es del derecho de consumo y es muy interesante en este caso las plataformas en Colombia Siempre han usado el argumento de decir que ellos son intermediarios que ellos no son parte de la dinámica de comercio ese es un
argumento que ha rechazado la superintendencia en materia de consumo y ha declarado que ellos son parte del proceso comercial y a ser Parte del comercio comercial Viene otro caso en el cual es es sancionada donde la empresa intermediadora que se define intermediadora pero la sig no la consider intermed mediadora debe no solo responder por las entregas sino debe responder por la calidad de los productos por la calidad de lo que ya está entregando y el consumidor tiene el derecho de reclamar Y además reclamar un justo precio y la superintendencia construye esta argumentación en la medida
en que la empresa intermediaria rapid se enriquece del proceso Ella cobra dentro de ese proceso maneja la cadena de comercialización y finalmente digamos debe debe garantizar y el tercer caso pues está incluido el quinto caso que está incluido en uno de estos resulta que rapi eh A diferencia de como se haría digamos En el mercado el consumo normal donde si evidentemente un menor de edad entra a comprar ciertos productos y por su calidad menor de edad no lo podría hacer rápida sin ningún problema vendía medicamentos vendía bebidas alcohólicas a menores y rapi es sancionada por
esta práctica eh en la medida que hay una violación a derechos fundamentales en esta dinámica y para cerrar digamos una de las conclusiones que que sacaría de Lo que de lo que he presentado estos cinco casos que podrían hacer muchos muchísimos más pero pues frente al tiempo y frente a la dinámica que se plantea Es que evidentemente la dinámica del comercio electrónico la dinámica de las grandes plataformas han roto las nociones jurídicas planas y clásicas del derecho sin embargo esto no significa que el derecho no pueda responder lo que significa es que los operadores jurídicos
las autoridades Administrativas debemos y nos vemos en la necesidad de pensar el derecho en la misma complejidad en la que se construye hoy el mercado y es Buscar estructuras de coordinación y armonización jurídica que nos permitan dar respuestas Y aquí en estos casos hemos visto dinámicas de derecho constitucional dinámicas del derecho de consumo dinámicas de la ley de protección de datos dinámicas del derecho de la competencia y es la sola forma en que podemos dar respuestas ya Que es en los vacíos legales donde muchas de estas empresas digamos estructuran modelos de negocio claramente violatorios de
derechos de las personas y simplemente dejaría un nuevo caso para la reflexiónes las cual hoy todas las autoridades del mundo nos estamos enfrentando precisamente por los vacíos legales Word Muchas gracias muchas gracias profesor eh And sorry going back to english I was Like my Brain failed there um Thank you so much um professor for your contribution And I Guess it opens Uh very well the floor for the presentation of my colleague Lucia Which Will add a bit more complexity to these ecosystems from a research that we did with some of the platforms That We are
discussing today so I pass the floor Now to Lucia Camacho She is a policy coordinator digitales and the lawyer specialized in public Policy with a Masters in Human Rights we Had some issues with the presentation but I Guess we Area good To Know good to go Now the FL is yours Thank you andone here sharing spanish professor derechos digitales publicó recientemente una investigación en donde analizamos las las políticas de dos Tipos de plataformas en concreto las plataformas de Delivery no de entrega de comidas así como las plataformas de compras en línea marketplaces Delivery Food Apps
y medimos el cumplimiento o el apego de estas políticas en materia de transparencia corporativa privacidad y protección de datos y libertad de expresión en este en esta evaluación que hicimos no sé si ustedes están viendo Okay perfecto en esta evaluación que hicimos el desempeño de estas compañías que tienen no solo un extenso número de usuarios hoy en un panel antes del almuerzo la responsable de protección de datos en ifu decía que estaban llegando al 100 a 100 millones de órdenes diarias eh lo que es un número masivo para una aplicación que tiene sede en Brasil
al menos solo en este país por ahora eh Por lo que prestamos atención a estas Plataformas que tienen cobertura regional que tienen un altísimo número tanto de usuarios como de colaboradores como ellos quieren denominar lo que son trabajadores y encontramos que al menos la manera en que se están comportando o en que están diseñando sus prácticas deja mucho que desear estoy de acuerdo con al profesor grenfield en que las reflexiones en materia de privacidad consumo competencia tienen que irradiar estas otras en materia de derechos Laborales y los insumos que generamos en esta investigación generan mucha
preocupación por la manera poco transparente y opaca con que la mayoría si no todas estas empresas operan hoy Déjenme darles al menos un vistazo muy general de estos hallazgos fíjense como en materia de gobernanza corporativa apenas una compañía de las ocho que evaluamos tiene un desempeño en materia de transparencia que consideraríamos aceptable y en y hay cu fome que es una Aplicación de Delivery aquí en Brasil que tiene extensión a nivel regional mereció ese puntaje únicamente porque fue adquirida por una muy grande empresa que en materia de estándares corporativos suele hacer muy bien las cosas
por lo que lo que sabía hacer bien lo aplicó a esta pequeña plataforma que operaba en ciertos estados en Brasil pero fíjense como Didi la plataforma Delivery de comida tiene 0% transparencia corporativa Busca Cuestionar aspectos básicos como Quiénes son los nombres detrás del gobierno de estas plataformas Quiénes están encargados de supervisar que las políticas internas se cumplan no al menos conocer los nombres de esas personas Cuáles son los cargos que existen a nivel interno de las compañías y esta pregunta que parece ser baladí no lo es tanto porque en el reclamo de los trabajadores y
sus derechos hemos encontrado en el caso colombiano que es Donde el primer sindicato logró acudir con rapi la plataforma Delivery a una mesa de negociación colectiva aunque rapi no quiera llamarla como tal porque no reconoce derechos laborales estos trabajadores han encontrado problemas para entender siquiera A quién Llamar a una mesa de negociación Cuál es su correo dónde se domicili Cuál es el nombre de las personas a las que hay que convocar a una mesa de negociación esa información que Debería ser disponible y Accesible no lo es Miren el Cómo seamos el performance no de estas
compañías que tienen cobertura en nuestros países ahora vayamos a la parte de privacidad que es aún mucho más crítica ifood que hoy Estaba en un panel hablando de cómo tenía una Inteligencia artificial denominada alcatras o prisionero que hacía un tracking casi como el de Uber que comentaba Jessica a milisegundos de la orden donde transita ellos a lo que denominan el track de la Orden en verdad lo que están diciendo es la vigilancia intensiva del colaborador o trabajador en donde se sustituye confianza por vigilancia no pero fíjense Quiénes ranan peor en esta plataforma ninguna supera al
menos digamos llega al tercer a un 50% con políticas o prácticas en materia de transparencia de privacidad donde encontramos por ejemplo ninguna de estas plataformas tanto de marketplaces como de Delivery decían a los usuarios si Retenían o no sus datos per ejemplo y Para qué fin es más cuando les preguntamos a estas plataformas si es que informaban a sus usuarios de los cambios de políticas algo tan básico como eso no enterar yo como usuario qué es lo que está vigente Cuáles son las reglas de juego ninguna se comprometía explícitamente informar de estos cambios y mucho
menos a informar a los usuarios en caso de que sus datos hubiesen sido objeto de un hurto o hubiesen sido Filtrados hace menos de TR semanas rapi sufrió una de las más grandes brechas en materia de datos donde los datos recordemos rap además de servos de Delivery también tiene servicios financieros bajo esta lógica de la super app la super app que quiere ser todo y sus datos de de bancarios de sus usuarios se filtraron y hasta hoy yo que soy usuaria de rap y sigo esperando que me informen si mis datos fueron oo expuestos ahora
Este es el estado de la Privacidad respecto de nosotros como consumidores pero nuestra intuición y hace falta que generemos evidencia al respecto es que cuando se trata de las políticas de privacidad aplicables a los colaboradores las condiciones son muchos mucho más desfavorables y Déjenme cerrar con cómo estas plataformas tratan la libertad de expresión de sus usuarios las preguntas sobre libertad de expresión son muy Nuevas cuando hablamos de las plataformas de Delivery pero hay que hacerlas solemos pensar casi siempre en redes sociales pero fíjense por ejemplo como cuando somos usuarios de plataformas como fut estamos interactuando
a través de un chat con la plataforma en donde enviamos cualquier tipo de contenido escrito audio imagen no la foto del pedido que no llegó como era entre otras cosas y ese tipo de contenidos también son objeto de Políticas de moderación fíjense el desempeño no tan malo particularmente de rapi que es una compañía que funciona en mi país Colombia y que ha sido objeto de múltiples sanciones Y todavía continúa bajo la mira del regulador esto Solo para dejar no la reflexión de cómo hace falta que conectemos no las preocupaciones de privacidad de consumo de competencia
de trabajo para entender que hay una suerte primero de sistematicidad no en la manera tan Deficiente en que estas plataformas tratan tanto a los usuarios como a sus colaboradores Y también cómo urge digamos transparencia o sea transparencia respecto a cómo operan Cómo se organizan cuáles son sus políticas incluso transparencia en aspectos tan básicos que reclaman los trabajadores como Cuáles son las causales de bloqueo de las cuentas por qué me bloquean una cuenta no Cuáles son Los mecanismos para apelar ese tipo de sanciones que son disciplinantes algo que hace un empleador no disciplinar a un subordinado
lo hace el algoritmo ellos los colaboradores no tienen siquiera derecho a saber qué está pasando Entonces lo dejo ahí para que sigamos y les invito les invitamos a que consulten esta publicación que está disponible en nuestro sitio web Thank you so much Lucía and with To join reflection Together to put reflections I want to Pos some discussion questions the idea was that We have a Second round of interventions but I believe we can hear from the audience We have very interesting audience here today so Maybe we can hear a bit from you and i complement
with the questions and leave you to give your final interventions following that Thank you very much um it will be hard To do to make only one question I would have several but um I think as Lu said said Who takes care of effectiveness of governance as rating by users I don't believe it works I've seen Hotels Which Had Great ratings and was Under construction I've seen severals on matter and as professori was Talking About transparency what is transparency For you What does it mean It's not only information as said here information doesn't work very
well I think at rapp we didn't even have an op in or opt out am I correct and even with we Had we don't have option actually We have to obtain um so How do you guys see transparency What is it and Who takes care or Who should Take care of effectiveness should We have bootman everywhere Or Not Thank you very Much Thank you I don't know If anyone Hi Every nice Table nice talks congratulations on the researches they awesome I was curious about Point Where said that transparency would be to share the contact of
persons that do this that Hold this governance inside the companies but I don't recall to seeing other companies doing this on other matter that Are Not Data protection or Ai like there are comp There are other things that call for this kind of infrastructure internal but They don't share the names of the persons I think Because It's kind of dangerous to share the name of the persons That Hold this position so I to hear your thoughts on this Thank you I Guess before putting some other questions for discussions And I thank you for taking notes
of the questions so we do like a final round of interventions um One interesting thing In thinking about strategy as saying What we did in It was to adt a methodology that is very Uh Used To analyze traditional Uh internet platforms social media platforms etc and it wasing for Us to see the very performance these particular companies these specific criteria could Pretty basic criteria When we Talking types that these companies having Human Rights in General Because They are not really analed or ranked usually It was even difficult to have contact with representatives from the companies
to share the results with them and incentiv them to change some of these practices While in other fields As you have more scrutiny even from civil society through these rankings or through other types Of research You could see a better performance on these criteria Which We all Of course can agree are a starting Point but even If they were 100% on Those criteria it doesn't necessarily mean They are they have good practices in terms of respecting right they Just complying with the basics That they should Have In terms of um information Access to information Uh
Data protection and freedom of expression as as was saying but I I would like to Leave some Uh discussion points I Guess One of them would have to do at least for me hearing You I feel very curious to to hear you also about How do you see collaboration among Those on the one hand authorities but also on the different stakeholders trying to scrutin What's happening in such mple dimensions in in these platforms um How do the Data exploitation practices of such large platform companies are affecting and Maybe professor Rodrigo could go deeper on that
Uh the Rights and working Conditions Of workers You presented a good um landcape of What are the guarantees Maybe I would love to hear a bit more about cases and What are the impacts and How do these relat to What we heard during the panel um and What could be the most effective Ways to ensure transparency in How platforms collect and use workers Data If We have successful models in latin America in other regions and How can workers be better empowered To understand and contr their Data and Jessica I would love to hear more about
your thoughts on this after the intervention of the colleagues please feel free also to react to each others I Guess There is a lot to discuss Uh I'll Leave You with five minutes each for your interventions and we can follow the same dynamic from the First round Thank you Thank you so um you asked me What is transparency transparency at the legal documents that we see It's not only The worker To Know Which Data is collected by the platform but also How it is processed and also Uh uh for Which purpose so It's I think
It's It's a tripod It's First Which Data is collected and you you have to see If It's legally It's lawfully collected and the the purpose and How it is processed It's important Because um in Our brazilian platforms or the colombian platform That is here in brazil What we can see It is It's completely op all the basic items like Pay wag completely theer Uber for example the Driver he does he or She doesn't know how much he or She Will Get In that r Because There is a Legend that the Company gets 25% this was
real at least or and does it is from 20% till 45 some cases 50% so It's incredible you get a and you don't know how much the Company tak sh so Crazy but like you don't know Why you get so Bad rides and your colleague Just get very good r but the Company knows knows it for sure knows and there are classification not only the customers but also the drivers and they match the The Good good rides To The Good drivers but the Driver doesn't know If is good medium It's completely op the same for
the deliv comp So The transparency It's all of That I Think and How is it here in in brazil the platform It's It's It's not so good during the pandem we in the public prosecutor office in the labor prosecutors Office we could get some Rights to the the the Riders mainly the Riders but also the drivers Because safety conditions during the pandemic Times we Just got paid we got Little B of Security meures for drivers but until now we get so much right Because platforms they call themselves platform They don't call themselves companies That's why
at the beginning of my Spech dig plat can means two things real platform marketplace like business That's not What We are Talking About we're Talking About companies That they call themselves platforms but they act like any other Company they have they Are Not intermediaries they have a business a Transportation people Transportation business or Delivery business ry And I Food but I More Than Compan compl System of sale It's not Delivery That's what I said I If I If the Cent the restaurant client decides the restaurant delivers The Good It's the sale of the prod but
I delivers also ifood offers this service so We have to to understand the platform not as plat any other compan they call digit plat for Us to Maybe That's why said only to get Advantage of that We have to to call these companies companies and call their responsibility That's i Jessica do you want to continue please sure Thank you um I will just to give a A thought On on different aspects that you have mentioned and some questions Uh um so First of all Uh you ask about How use cases are important for learning from
and and And I think One thing we learned from Uh from geneva and the case of drivers also in Paris is that Data was very valuable as knowledge as to obtain Power to negotiate and um and this was mainly through the geolocation Data but geolocation Data was important in the case of your drivers why Because in the case of Uh trying to know how to respect the minimum wage and calculate Social Security um payment and so they needed To Define What was working Time for a Uber Driver that was working as an independent and that
Uh became One Day by decision of the Court of Justice um an employee and This is also the cas for Delivery workers Where they were also working on theand as independent and were geolocation Data allow Uh to actually for the algorithms to optimize the Delivery um distance Uh working Time and also Control the work demand right and and this geolocation Data allowed to give Uh the the stakeholders in the social dialog a point of discussion Ok Now We have Every Second the activity of u drivers for the past 3 Five years What is working Time
and Uber was saying that working Time was only When they Had the clients In The Car so they were not willing to pay social Rights for the drivers for Anything that was before or after that for example When the Driver was waiting for an order by the app or When the Driver accepted an order and When to pick up the client This is a huge huge difference of What is working Time for a digital platform and a huge huge differ for the State on what they can collect Uh as financial resources to pay to to
receive the Social Security and so so Uh for the u drivers also this was a very Uh huge Difference Because they Wanted to go to the Court Uh of Just is individually and and request for their compensations Because they didn't agree with the collective negotiations so for Us Data Was knowledge and Power for the collectivity to be able to negotiate properly with Uber Who owned the whole Data for the past years and and then the question of transparency is It's related To This Because then we could Define that What Is was relevant here was to
understand what It was working How was Define it How is tracked what Can we account for it so the the Level of transparency and the utility of transparency the purpose of it it Will depend on the local circumstances and the stakeholders That are in the table that know better than anyone Uh Why are we asking for transparency I would say Uh for this to also be able to understand Uh How transparent how transparent um is a Company is also important to verify the Data To Know that the Data is reliable it is aurate Or Not
but the fact of Just exercising your Data Access right and to Uh say we received errors in the Data is already a proof of um unlawful or many other problems legal problems Uh um that are related to Data protection and labor Rights I'm not an expert in Law but this served actually the lawyers That were protecting the drivers to Uh Give New Arguments in in in the in the process they were following and and Finally um we What worked for Us was to work in a very interdisciplinary way Because we were experts only in exercising
Data Access right and Uh recovering analysing Data but then we Had the Support of lawyers and then we Had the Support of Uber drivers and unions It was very hard I would say and the State was also very hard to get into the cooperation but at the end Every actor took the information That needed and Uh and this allowed at least some benefits for some One important thing was that the decision and This is to add also on the comments That were said before How the the companies consider as intermediaries but here the State I
mean the Court of Justice ru that This ruber is a Transportation Company and the drivers are employees the problem was that drivers Wanted to remain independent contractors They don't want To become employees they like the Uber model and this Uber business model I call it the gambler model Because it has High risks but some drivers can earn a lot of money but the problem is that others cannot make a lot of money and the more drivers in in the Market the less are the benefits for the whole population of drivers that are register so We
have bigger gaps between Those that earn Little Those that earn a lot and bigger also discrimination across Drivers Uh so yeah That's That's and Now the the final problem I want to highlight is that Now Uber has subcontractors and also drivers want to become subcontractors creating their own companies to be able to Run Again the Uber business models and not Uh be employees Okay Eh abordando la la la discusión que se plantea es entender que es digamos de una evidencia el modelo de negocio el Modelo de negocio de las plataformas está estructurado bajo algo digamos
que estos creadores han denominado romper romper y avanzar no respetar las normas jurídicas y eh construir sobre esos vacíos está la riqueza que es una paradoja la paradoja eh No está en que el negocio funcione en la medida en que se adapte al Derecho sino en la medida en que eh dentro de las fracturas de lo Jurídico yo pueda digamos avanzar y es un poco lo que anotaba este reporte del Consejo de estado hace ya desde el 2018 o sea a partir de estas fracturas subiera el derecho laboral subiera el derecho de la competencia subieras
subiera regulatorio en todos los sentidos y ahí construyo mi modelo y además que es la inmensa paradoja vendo la idea de transparencia además un Negocio yo hago datos bien y los score los el modelo estadístico dicen no es un problema eh de discriminación si no es un problema de eficiencia en la medida en que y es digamos también poner a pelear a las dos pares débiles del contrato el consumidor y el productor porque también el productor es sancionado yo como ese como ese tema esto para decir que el discurso de la transparencia Puede tener dos
contenidos uno jurídico que es de hardlock duro debe ser sancionador y otro puede ser de soft l suave o de marketing eh creo que en las dinámicas y es la atención que se está dando hoy en día pareciera que se quisiera vender la idea de autorregulación de buenas prácticas y de una sedo adaptación a las normas jurídicas que se quiere plantear y sobre eso hay un gran discurso de estas Grand Compañías y un gran lobby también para que esto esto suceda o sea yo rindo cuentas hago una suerte de a accountability social y digamos lo
estoy lo estoy haciendo bien pero la realidad es mucho más compleja y es como las autoridades como los estados realmente asumen un ejercicio de independencia regulatoria de imaginación jurídica y la transparencia termina transformándose en dos elementos jurídicos que considero fundamentales Responsabilidad que es una noción jurídica esencial usted responde por acción o por omisión frente a los daños que le cause a otro los daños morales los daños en violación de derecho los daños por discriminación y además prácticas sistémicas y otro es usted también responde por no cumplir los fines constitucionales Porque además estas compañías se estructuran
en estados de derecho Cumplen fines constitucionales ento sí creo que hay una responsabilidad estructural y sobre la cual las autoridades y los jueces debemos trabajar las autoridades administrativas deben ir construyendo estas dinámicas vía jurisprudencia vía reglamentaria o sea es fundamental que eso se construya eh eh para regresar estas estructuras al derecho a la garantía de derecho y no sea Simplemente un criterio de responsabilidad política o de marketing eh yo digamos yo yo creería que la transparencia que se entiende Como una palabra muy de moda debe ser sometida al derecho y de ser medida por el
derecho y para hacer el examen del derecho y y y estas compañías deben ser pues sancionadas y simplemente quiero cerrar acá y es una palabra que utilizó lucí ahorita que tiene una gran connotación práctica Sistémicas y en derecho internacional cuando se habla de prácticas sistémicas de violación de Derechos Humanos como es el derecho a la intimidad la vias Data pues evidentemente son violaciones muy graves simplemente que esta vez pues no estamos viendo campos de concentración en el sentido clásico Pero hay una política sistémica de grandes compañías de violar sistémicamente el derecho a la privacidad unas
prácticas sistémicas y cuantificables y este nivel de violación Es grave y y y determina eh instrumentos internacionales también de ese nivel de nivel de sanción y las respuestas de los estados y de las autoridades regulatorias debe ser estructural estructural Pues a riesgo eh yo creo que evidentemente de romper todas las garantías jurídicas no solamente al consumidor como consumidor sino al ciudadano y a la propia promesa democrática ese ese es un comentario extraordinario Para cerrar qué Añadir después yo [Risas] creo miren en 2022 o 23 la resolución del Consejo de Derechos Humanos que operacionaliza los principios
para empresas y Derechos Humanos ha Sid una invitación a todos quienes hacemos parte del derecho jueces académicos sociedad civil Investigadores y tenía una invitación a que reimagines las teorías jurídicas que no están permitiendo responder a los retos que hoy traen consigo las nuevas tecnologías el trabajo la plataforma la algoritm del trabajo la violación sistemática del derecho a la privacidad la imposibilidad que tienen nuestras autoridades de determinar Cuáles son los mercados en los que estas plataformas son dominantes Que no es res fácil responder a esta pregunta porque las plataformas operan en distintos mercados la autoridad no
sabe En cuál de todos ellos la plataforma ejerce un dominio Aunque todos tengamos una suerte de intuición de Quiénes son los que dominan Qué tipo de Mercado pero necesitamos mejores teorías jurídicas para responder no a la necesidad de reparar la violación de derechos que tenemos hoy en distintos frentes solo quisiera volver sobre el Elemento de la transparencia porque como herramienta para la satisfacción de Derechos Humanos es esencial transparencia a nivel operativo a nivel técnico no solo Cómo funciona el algoritmo Cómo castiga o no castiga Cuáles son los incentivos Cómo premia a quienes se portan mejor
y más trabajan en la aplicación sino transparencia a nivel de las políticas no solo en qué políticas se publican sino cómo se comporta la Compañía respecto de sus propias polí eso también es transparencia comportarme de manera conforme con lo que yo he dicho que voy a hacer en la práctica porque lo que estamos viendo Es que aú cuando se publiquen extensísima que ni ustedes ni yo vamos a leer 30.000 palabras de términos y condiciones porque eso es lo que nos presentan a veces tres veces el código penal de nuestros países aú cuando las publiquen Cómo
se Comportan en la práctica y como vemos que está habiendo una brecha no en donde no hay transparencia hacen una cosa distinta lo que dicen que van a hacer eso también debería entrar en nuestros estándares de cómo debería comportarse al menos en materia de transparencia una compañía luego también transparencia aplicada a la administración quienes quizás no los nombres en concreto para algunos pueda ser incómodo poner su nombre no y nos enteremos por link Quién Hace parte De qué compañía y cuál es su cargo pero sí que necesitamos saber cuáles son los cargos que están tomando
las decisiones para luego entender a quién exigir que rinda cuentas creo que eh una vez alcancemos la transparencia que deseamos luego al tiempo Tendremos que hacer las preguntas de A qué autoridad exigir que aplique esos altos estándares que Esperamos que se respeten en la práctica En nuestros países vemos que hay autoridades de protección de datos que también lo son en materia de transparencia como es el caso de México Argentina pero en el resto de países aun cuando el estándar interamericano es que se cree y exista una autoridad independiente en materia de transparencia la realidad es
que en nuestros países no hay tal figura o opera conjuntamente con una autoridad que ya ejerce facultades respecto de Otra materia entonces quizá también haya que reflexionar sobre cuál es el supervisor si lo hay y si no qué facultades debería tener para que nos decidamos también a a crearlo pero bueno lo dejo Ahí wow conc s everyone We are Being controlled algorithmically by these digital platforms And I think we are trying to do here and Our discussions here this Afternoon we can su Up In The following idea How can we recover digital sovereignty for individuals
No matter If in the context of labor or consumption or regarding the State so I would like to Thank you All Of You panelist for The High quality presentations and discussions And I hope we can get Together in the future Again um I have some questions but I will Keep for next year When we Meet Again so Thank you when I'm professor I am already but from Fgv next time so Thank you for All Of You Being here Thank you Jessica for Being here online too so Thank you thank you It was a pleasure to
share the table with you Thank you very much Bye have a good day have a good evento
