Ele Fez 1 Bilhão De Dólares Em Vendas Com VSLs | Jon Benson - Segredos da Escala #107

No one is buying the VSSL because it's pretty. People now are too afraid to do a VSSL cuz they're like, "Oh, I don't have the money for this or that and the other." Well, first of all, in less than a year, you're not going to worry about that. AI is going to take care of it. If you don't have the money to do the production thing, what I tell people to do is like >> in your thinking, John, what do you Think are all these most important parts of the VSSL? Maybe it's the lead, maybe

the offer, the mechanism, I don't know. And what do you think that people can do to increase their conversion in each of these parts? >> Yeah, that's a good question. Um, three most important parts without a doubt. So, your lead is super important. followed very closely by a combination of two things. There's ways that you can personalize an offer to make it a little Bit different. Like one of the things that I used years ago that's coming back into Vogue because I've been talking about it is these are things that you can do to make

something you already have way more valuable in the mind of your customer and make you stand out from the competition. The need to physically write copy is rapidly deteriorating. It is going fast and it's way faster than people realize. If you don't know the basics of copywriting, Which most people don't, you are screwed. If you're just using prompts for copy, good luck. Good luck with that. That's why we still teach copywriting like you're writing it from scratch. In fact, I coined the term copy refiner. Like you're not a copywriter, you're a copy refiner. >> Copy.

>> Your job now is to be a copy refiner. Brazil. So, First of all, thank you so much, man, for being here in the V in the VTO podcast. As I said, you are like a legend here in Brazil. A lot of people have used your framework to write VSSL to make money to, you know, have a better life. >> And the first question that I have for you is actually something that I very curious about. >> So how was the idea process to actually create like the the the VSSL concept? You were like, okay,

maybe if I got a sales letter and put it like this >> because it was something a little bit revolutionary, you know, for for marketers. So, how do you thought this about this? >> Yeah, it's um I'd love to say it was marketing genius, but it was pure luck to be honest with you. So, it was um I was I just released my second book in fitness called Every Other Day Diet and >> my first book did really well and Because I didn't write the copy, so I wasn't a copywriter. >> Yeah. And so my

friend Tom Venudo wrote the copy and it just like you know we hit like a thousand on Alexa which you know this is the the ranking of all the most popular websites. So we were in the top thousand websites in the entire world at the time. It was crazy man. >> So uh and I'd never seen anything like this and and I'd never been exposed to direct response marketing. I was just a Writer and a fitness guy and that's that's it really. And so we wrote this book fit over 40 and and and I it

just took off and I just immediately shifted my career to this even after running a company for 14 years a different industry. Uh and my second book I said okay he he he wanted to go on his own and so so we just split amicably and um had this big massive list after this launch. You know this is back in the day where I mean one launch I had a list of You know 50,000 people. So it was like it just went from zero to 50,000. It's like and just kept growing you know it kept

growing a six-figure list was in the first year and you know and started growing from there. So it was this is a definitely a different time uh 2004 uh that was when that came out. So in 2006 I released every other day diet late 2005 and I couldn't sell it if I couldn't give it away even with a list like that even with this really strong List. I mean I sold like a hundred copies or something. It was ridiculously bad and I couldn't get affiliate traffic to convert and I'm like man I don't get it.

I surely a sales page isn't that hard to write. I wrote books, you know, it's like I I I was like the only copywriter I studied was the guy was was Tom. I I didn't I just studied the letter he wrote and tried to kind of replicate it and it just didn't work at all. And it was like just bombing. And So I started calling my friends in the business and um my friend Mike Giri said, "Uh, hey, you know what? You should try I saw this guy doing this. He he put together a PowerPoint

presentation and it's it sold really well. I go PowerPoint like in you know cuz I was like business and he sh I saw like like a couple of like a maybe half a minute of it and it was one of those ugly like it looked like a business PowerPoint thing where you had the Bullet points and you had the green background. It it it wasn't a VSSL. It looked like you know it he was just basically it was a PowerPoint presentation basically. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so I thought I thought I can't do that, man.

That sucks. You know, I got away from the business world for this reason. And so, but then I started thinking what like so I the thought process was um it was it was trig it was trick triggered by some what Somebody somebody told me when we were looking over the data. We're looking over the heat mapping data of the site and they were saying, "Oh, the people are really interested in the headline. They're really interested in this." And they skimmed down to here and blah blah blah. And somebody said, you know, it'd be so cool

if we could just get somebody to read every word of the page rather than because people are reading maybe seven, eight%, right? And I'm like, so I Started thinking, I said, what how could you get somebody to read every word of the page? And so I at the time, uh, who later became my friend, I didn't know him at the time, but, uh, Felix wrote rich Jerk, and this was a famous offer on ClickBank. It was a really blew up mega millions. >> Yeah. Yeah. He's famous here in Brazil, too. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So, so yeah, Kelly is um his name's Kelly, but uh he's just a Hilarious guy. And and I told him, I said, "Dude, you inspired the VSSL. You just didn't know it." Because he had like 12 clicks to read the sales page. You had to click click click, right? And so I was thinking, well, what if we did something like that? Okay. And then then I started thinking, well, well, then they would just skim this and click that. I'm like, well, what if we So, I was talking to myself. I said, what if I put

every word on the slide? you know, Not like that PowerPoint [ __ ] because that's terrible, right? I'm talking about like like every word on the slide like one sentence at a time. If they read one sentence at a time, they either will bomb or whatever. And then I started thinking, well, the other thing I could do cuz I I was trained in NLP. I I studied NLP in college and and I said, I could actually use advertising because I came out of advertising. >> Black and red was the colors, the Default colors in all

of Madison Avenue was that the black and red. I said, "What if I did a black video, like a white background, black headline, and made every and if you were if you look back at the original VSSL, every single slide was in title case." And the reason why is because I said, and it's it I look back and I laugh now, but it's it actually worked. As I said, what if every sentence was a headline? So, this was the this was the one thing I could say that was a that was a kind of a

good idea. So, I said, "What if every sentence was a headline?" Because everyone reads the headline. And so when my my friend Dan was telling me that, I said, man, what if every sentence was a headline? It's like, well, then they wouldn't, but then he started thinking, well, I don't know, man. Maybe. And so I made every sentence a headline. And then I turned certain words red the same way you do in headlines. And those words are NLP command terms usually. And I sent it out to my list and instead of getting six sales, I

got 60. It was I don't remember the exact metrics, but it was like eight or 10 times more, right? And this was like maybe a three or four minute video. And I said, "Oh man, what if I did it longer?" And so my long VSSL was 16 minutes. That was the long one. That was the very first one. Yeah. And that launched and a month later we had a million dollars in ad spend every month. And I wasn't doing it. Everybody else was. So it was crazy, man. And so next thing you know, everyone's coming

out of the woodworks going, "Dude, can you write one for me?" I go, "I'm not a copywriter, man." It's like that's it's not working because of the copy I wrote. And you know, looking back on it now, it's in people's controls. And you know, the second one I wrote it was uh uh truth about abs. I even voiced it because I did I did VO work in in in College and so they so the voice was always there and and um yeah so my so Mike gave me 20 grand or 25 grand to write his

letter and it's still the control today. It's 20 years later so it's crazy. >> Oh my god. >> But so that's that's basically the start of it and then everyone came out of the woodworks from there. Like uh you know I was working with everyone from um uh at the time uh Pimpsler was unknown. They Were buried underneath. Well, I mean, they were doing okay, but they were nothing compared to Rosetta Stone at the time and and the owner of the company came to me and said, "Hey, can you tweak this and voice it?" And

that's what I did. So, I just kind of started a business. I just decided to shift everything to to becoming a VSSL guy. And next thing you know, I'm a copywriter. So, that's how I worked. It just, you know, then I figured out how To write sales pages and emails and and >> Got it. Got it. >> Yeah. It really interesting. And and and did you did you did you have any idea that the the formak the VSSL would get that big that it would go to Brazil to Romania to all over the world? That's

crazy, right? >> No idea, man. No idea at all. I I mean it was and honestly if it you people have told me that you should make a better story than the one that you tell Because it's like it's But this is the truth. >> That's a good story. That's a good story. I like it. >> The one thing that is a very good marketing story is make every sentence a headline. Uh, I should I should have a t-shirt that says that, but that's that is what that is my unique idea. And then of course

I came up with the idea to do the black and then and everyone's VSSL was black and red and and then people Were using red for the wrong things and you know I had to so we would use it in the right way like you want you want those red words to stand out and people didn't know I was doing this but now I can tell you because you might know this tactic but I started teaching it later in my courses like I would bold and read certain words that over a period of 10 slides

formed a sentence. >> Whoa. So I I got really crazy with this. Like over 10 sentences it would say, "You really should buy this today or five slides, you know, that's awesome." >> And it's like the subconscious mind would pick it up and it was just fun. I wasn't like trying to be, you know, nefarious or anything. I was just I just thought it was fun. >> And um so there's all kinds of kinds of cool things you can do about it. And I was like very down on any graphics at all. It has to

be ugly. People we tried graphics by the way. It's not like we Didn't think of that. It's like, "Oh, we should make the whole thing." It bombed. completely bombed. It wasn't until bandwidth caught up and and you know we were able to do what we can do now. Craig was really the first guy to do in my opinion to do um um uh Craig Clemens to do >> high production >> graphics really really well. Yeah. Craig Clemens. Yeah. Gundry stuff, you know. >> Yeah, that's awesome. He's actually Testing V right now. Golden Hippo. >> Oh,

I was going to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> He's becoming a client right now. He's doing an AB test with Bright. >> I hope that you get him, man. I hope >> I hope so. Yeah. He's a great guy. He's a big guy. >> And I also want to interview him here on the podcast. Maybe I'll send in an email, see if it works out. >> He's a great guy. He's a great guy. I haven't talked to him in years, but um >> Yeah. Yeah. Do you >> do do you have any idea on what has

changed from like your first concept to to today in 2025? Because for example, you just said that Craig was the first one to add like this high production value to the VSSLs. >> Yeah. But lots of people are adding lots of stuff to the VSSL and like keep improving the conversion. For example, as I told you before the podcast, we at Twitter, we can increase the VSSL speed To the exact time that it converts more. So, we have all these little tricks, you know. >> Yeah. >> Do you have any knew immediately I have to

get to know you, man, because if you think that way, that's that's freaking ninja, man. That's awesome. I mean, so sorry to interrupt you, but the the uh that tactic was talked about 10 years ago with me and Ryan Dice. >> Ryan called me. He goes, he goes, "Dude, you know what we just found out? If we speed up the video to 1.3, we get more conversions. And if we turn down the volume, >> so I don't know if you can do that or not, but turn down the volume." And so I started recording my

videos like back like this, like I'm talking back and it's gonna I mean still projecting like I'm talking like right but just to where because it makes someone lean in and Turn up the volume and they're more engaged for the video >> and and so these crazy little tricks. Yeah, so much has changed and I mean playback speed is huge and and again you can leave it to the user's uh own distinct thing but it tends to be a little faster is a little better and I read fast. So um that for me normally it's

you don't speed it you don't want to speed it up it's too uh but but >> yeah so there's tons of stuff that has Changed the biggest thing is just the quality and speed you know that we get now and so we can do a lot more things but um I think that like Agora you know they they really adopted the ugly VSSL better than anyone else that I know of. >> Yeah. And to this very day, their their VSSLs, some of their like survival stuff will start off with, you know, the imagery and all

that, >> but it it eventually converts to slides. >> And I've never seen a VSSL lose when I Maybe there has been one, but >> where if somebody's tested image, video, etc., they transition eventually to slides. And the pitch should always be in slides. I think um there might be somebody that cracks that code, but it's it's it's so much easier to sell with slides. >> Yeah. here in Brazil actually the the biggest guys that are running the VSSLs they are doing the VSSL with a very high production value so they hire like an Expert

maybe a doctor or something and then they get like three to two people maybe five people I don't know to record the VSSL so lots of people lots of guys lots of scenarios I don't know if that doesn't work in the United States but at least here in Brazil that's kind of the state-of-the-art when it comes to to VSSL conversions >> people are doing a lot of money with that and I I think that the reason it works is because it increases the Credibility of the VSSL because people think, oh, there's actually a person there.

So, you have like more proof elements, you know, instead of just having the words. >> At least that's my thinking. I don't know if that's true, but what is true is that people are scaling this kind of format right now with this very high production value. >> And so, so I think some guys are doing in the the United States too. Some Brazilians are running traffic in the United States like through ClickBank, dig store, buy goods, all these payment platforms. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> but I don't know like the majority of of the guys in

the United States are running. So, yeah. And then I I I can say about that. >> Well, the the thing is is like, you know, I've done a ton of writing and consulting with people that including Craig uh that do these high production VSSLs and it's it only works if you have the copy. So, >> yeah, of course, if you're missing the copy, forget it. And so, you need to test it first with slides because you don't want to dump a ton of money into it. And if it's got legs on slides, then sure, you

can test that. uh by all means, but it's you want to definitely want to test it first. And you know, we have um uh had a client that I worked With for for about a year with doing consulting and they had famous actors doing the stuff and they hire out, you know, like they do it like in a major way, right? >> And and that's all cool like celebrities. I think they had um they had uh Paul Abdul, they had um um Steve Harvey, they had you know when I say famous, I mean famous people,

not you know like A-list celebrities or >> um and and um one of the um um I can't Remember her name but these a lot of famous actors and and people that are you know that people don't know their names and so that works I would imagine lends immediately credibility to that but it's also that's at a normie scale That's at a scale where you're getting a lot of the the normies. The underground feel though, the reason why Agora did, you know, is a billion-dollar company and they they mostly do these ugly newsletters and ugly

sales letters and Ugly VSSLs is because it does there's a different psychology there. The psychology of somebody that wants to push against the system, right? >> So that still exists in the world. So, if your copy reflects that, like if you're contrarian or you're like, you know, I put this together, there's no I I if you don't have the money to do the production thing, what I tell people to do is like you're not going to see any fancy video here. You're not going to See any because look, I I'm just a guy from my

kitchen that discovered this. So, I'm sharing this with the world. This works, so who cares if it's fancy or not? So, I actually tell people to write like that and actually make it a benefit that their video is ugly VSSL. So it gets around that concept cuz no one is buying the VSSL because it's pretty. They're watching it because they assume that oh this guy whoever's got that they're a big company they got. But If you position it differently it's no different than if you look back in the days of I I know you're Brazilian

but um in the States Madison Avenue in the the New York advertising agencies um they made a a a television series called Mad Men. I don't know if you ever seen Mad Men or not but >> I only saw the first episode. It says it's toasted and that's it. It >> It's fantastic. Mad Men is Mad Madman is one of the best television shows ever Made. But uh um so definitely watch it if if you can. But they talk in Madmen about like did you see this full page ad that this guy David Oggovie did?

And I know the writers had to have some sort of knowledge of copyrighting because they go, "Who is this Oggovy guy? Look at this. Not there's no graphics on here, right?" But they had no idea they were about to get slaughtered. they that they they so and and obviously you still have Madison Avenue. You still have Major major reach and and campaigns and and these visual campaigns, but you have the other guys that are spending one 100th the money and capturing onetenth of the percent, but so they're just killing them, right? I mean, as far

as just, you know, making making take-home money. So, I think that you should try both. In other words, I people get now are too they're too afraid to do a VSSL because they're like or some of people are because they're like, "Oh, I don't Have the money for this and that and the other." Well, first of all, in in in less than a year, you're not going to worry about that. AI is going to take care of that. You'll be able to produce. I mean, already, you know, Sora and other AI tools like that are

can proven that they can actually make stuff that looks like video, right? >> Yeah. It's crazy. So that's going to be it's going to be a basically the AI will figure out what to tell from the script. But um but you still need the script, you still need the words and AI by itself unless you know exactly how to use it sucks at writing words. So it's not very good at writing writing even like everybody loves Claude and Claude can be really good if it if you know how to prompt it and refine it and

all that stuff but uh you still need to know what you're looking for and that that's the problem. It's like the most commonly asked question I get today is like even With Benson, it's like because we know the cop is good out of Benson, but it's not going to be 100% all the time because nothing is. Humans aren't. I'm not. You're not. Right. You know, we've written I'm sure you've written things that didn't work. >> Of course, lots of lots of it. >> Yeah. >> That's actually my specialty. >> Yeah. You know, it's like people

think that that you know, you're an A-lister And so you you you automatically are going to get something that works. It's like I Gary Halbert, one of the greatest copyriters in history in my opinion. Uh definitely he totally epitomized this. I mean, I never met him because he was before my time, but um he uh he would instead of rewriting stuff, he would write one draft of things and if it bombed, he'd just tear it up. Next project, >> just wouldn't even waste any energy. So, He had more failures. He's like the Babe Ruth of

of of copyrightiting. He had way more failures than hits, but his hits were just >> Yeah. Yeah. >> massive. So, so that's the same here. So, so don't be afraid to test something with slides is what I'm I'm trying to say. And and don't be and once you get that, man, adding the visuals, that's that's not that hard nowadays. You can there's tons of people on Upwork that Can do that for you, but but the scripts are very difficult. >> Yeah, of course. Oh, I agree 100%. The most important part is the copy. If the

copy doesn't work, people will not buy. Otherwise, you could just show them a Netflix movie or whatever and they would buy, right? If it were just for for the graphics. >> Yep. So yeah and then we have like uh these little variables that can increase conversion for example if it will be Slides if it will be a graphics if the speed will be 1x 1.2 2, 1.3, whatever. >> And we have like two categories of that. We have the easy ones, for example, just increase speed. It's very easy to do that >> and we have

the hard ones. And you actually mentioned that in the podcast because you said that the most important part of the VSSL is the lead, which is the very first the first few minutes of the VSSL. >> So in in your thinking, John, what do you think are all these most important parts of the VSSL? Maybe it's the lead, maybe the offer, the mechanism, I don't know. And what do you think that people can do to increase their conversion in each of these parts? >> Yeah, that's a good question. Um, three most important parts without without

a doubt. I mean, there's there's I don't think there's much debate in copyrightiting in the copyrightiting World about this. Um, your lead, your first your first 200 words and really if a lead is about a thousand words usually, but your first 200 are just critical. Um, so you only because you got to get capture the attention. It's like a subject line in email. Like you take all these email courses, right? And they tell you how to write bodies of emails and they kind of slack on the subject lines. It's silly because you know, no subject

line, no email. I don't You could be the best email writer in the world and if your subject lines suck that doesn't matter. No one's going to ever see it, right? Same thing with a lead. If you have the best VSL in the world, you have the killer offer. You can have everything and if your lead sucks, it's just not going to work. Like, you know, I saw a VSSL the other day. It had a killer offer. I mean, the offer was fantastic. And it starts off with, "Hi, my name is Dr. So and so,

and I'm a licensed physician from the state of Florida. I'm proud of my Florida Gators." I'm like, "Oh, you've got to be [ __ ] kidding. This will never work. This will never ever ever work, right?" And it never it didn't work. So, it's it's it's like no one cares about your Florida Gators or, you know, no one cares that you're just no one cares. So, so you have to get someone to care. So, your lead is super important, followed very closely by a combination of two Things. So I'm going to squeeze two things into

one. Your your big idea, you know, is absolutely that is what makes the lead in your entire campaign followed by your mechanism or lead hook. So one of the two have to be in there. So usually I put lead hook and lead together. So to give you an idea, like a lead hook might be something like, look, there's a 10-second fix for cellulite that I've been using every morning. Okay, that's a lead hook. That's not a Big idea. >> Yeah. A big idea might be like the reason why you have cellulite has nothing to do

with what the food you eat is everything to do with X. So that's more of a big idea. Like what's the big idea? Like like or or even bigger than that is like um you know you know the the there's a there's a conspiracy in the government that is wanting to make women carry cellulite. Yeah. That that's stupid, but you get the idea. That's More of a big idea, right? So the big ideas in VSSLs are can be make or break. Okay. Um or and I like to refer to them as like a smaller idea

is the lead hook. So you have a big idea which is the big big big thing like you're not fat because of this, you're fat because of leptin. You know that that's more of a big idea where the hook might be like there's this wacky weird hormone that if you fix it your weight loss goes that's the hook. So the hook is just a Different way of saying the big idea is just in my opinion. So that's a lead hook. Um, and that can be related to a what people call a unique mechanism, what we

call a positive hook in Vincent lingo. Like what is the thing that makes it work? What is the what is the secret sauce behind your your offer? And the third and this is I put this last uh it shouldn't be last because it all this is for not if this fails is the offer itself. So if you have an offer that Just if you if you're selling the same thing everyone else says for the same price, it's you've got a [ __ ] offer and it's never going to work. If you've got something that's less

expensive and it comes with XYZ and you can actually have people do it for you, that's a killer offer, right? So, so you got to think about in terms of how am I going to deliver the very thing that I have. So, I like to get people like to think outside the box when they don't have the Income to say, okay, oh, this comes with a software that we that we made, so it makes it easier for you. I mean, you know, that's a good upsell, too. whatever the elite whatever the offer itself is. Um

there's ways that you can personalize an offer to make it a little bit different. Like one of the things that I used years ago that's coming back into Vogue because I've been talking about it is that when someone gets this that hey I know how busy you are. So What I did is I broke out the top 20 aspects of this book and I'm going to email them to you 20 days in a row with a little encouragement. So you're just getting encouragement email. I'm not selling you anything. It's just a super bonus. I'm break

I broke out the top 20 things in case you don't have time to read it. So, think of this as just my little note to you every every day for 21 days or whatever it may be just to encourage you on to to read it. So, so That makes the offer uniquely different, right? Right there because no one else is doing that for some reason. They're not using email. And so, that's kind of a cool way to do it. And you know, obviously we don't want to get into the technical aspects of this, like you

can send a link and send them to a blog or whatever, but these are things that you can do to make something you already have way more valuable in the mind of your customer and make you stand out From the competition. >> Yeah. >> So, those three things and the easiest thing by far to test is the lead. If you have an offer that's working, the only thing that I do to get an offer to work better is change the lead/le hook. Like where what's the what's the idea going into that? Now, if I come

up with some killer idea, like some which we've done before. We looked at things and we said, "Oh, you know what? This is actually More of an X than a Y and it's completely different. It forces the VSSL to be completely re rewritten, but it's such a good idea that there's no way we can pass it up." That does happen. But what's a lot cheaper and a lot more common is when somebody says, "This VSSL has used to do this and now it's doing this." >> Yeah. >> Well, it's lead lead fatigue is a is

a term that's used in the copyrightiting World, >> of course. And how do you get around lead fatigue? Well, lead fatigue doesn't just need a new lead. It needs a new lead hook. >> So, those two things put together is what we call well, I have a course coming out called lead alchemy, which is all about this. Like, how how do you tweak these leads to get you you we can often double conversions on where people are at with just changing the lead. That's it. That's just the first 500 600 words. And the hook that

gets into that lead is super important. So, and because because I'll tell you another secret that I don't think very many people talk about in VSSL world, especially VSSL copywriters is, you know, one of my good friends is a uh the top golf copywriter in the world, and he works uh his agency is the the best in the world at doing this. And you know that he writes killer VSSLs, absolutely killer. And he's like, "Man, the VSSL is about 30%. the rest of its ads ads to the VSSL. So they'll test 800 a thousand ad

creatives at a time. >> Yeah. >> So it's it's >> Yeah. So So your VSSL may be okay and your ad just sucks. The problem is is that your ads you need So we have ad hooks too, right? So there's different ways to hook someone into the same conversation in the ad. So if your ad hook ends up being super killer and this Is where your software could really come in handy. If if the ad has this hook that says, you know, I'm just going to make the 10-second fix for whatever, you know, and that's

the one that wins, then you need a headline that reflects, watch this for the 10-second fix. It can't be inongruent. So, you need congruency through that your whole process, >> of course. >> So, those things are what pros look at. How congruent is everything? How much Does it flow? Um, and then, yeah, the if I had to name one thing that would change the most in a VSSL, it's the lead. >> Yeah, of course. I agree 100%. Actually, we can even think that the ad is actually the lead of the lead, right? So, it's the

very first step on the sales message. So, yeah, it makes like the the job of the lead, but instead of doing that that job on the VSSL real estate, it does that on the traffic Source on Facebook, YouTube, maybe native ads or whatever. Super simp. So when when you you talk about the lead, you say that you have like the big idea which in my view is like what the VSSL talks about. It will talk about the conspiracy, talk about this, talk about that. like the the main thing about the VSSL and then you say

that you have this lead hook which uh if I'm wrong please correct me okay but from what I Understood the lead hook is the reason why people will just start watching your VSSL for that specific reason right for this like this motive this reason >> right >> and then you say that you need to change the lead hook when the lead fatigues because that's where you get the most uh performance of course you also need to change the ads, but people, you know, they already saw started talking about it, so they probably do it. >>

But when we talk about the the lead hook, >> if we change the lead hook, sometimes you say that uh if the lead hook changes enough, it will actually change the whole VSSL, right? Because if you say, "Hey, >> yeah, today I'm going to talk to you about leptin or whatever or you know this concept, this thing." and uh and then your the middle part of the VSSL can change too. How do you see if how How do you prioritize choosing these lead hooks when it comes to a fixed product? Because if you have a

health product and for example, if you have a product about collagen, >> there is just so many hit looks that you that you can create, right? Because you have like this product is which is collagen and then you just have so many ways to actually sell it. Yeah. In that case you would recommend people just like finding another product if it's Just stop selling or how do you change these leads to keep selling that one product? >> Okay. So so I I this is the this is the uh analogy I always use for this. Okay.

You see the guitars behind me right? Well I was a professional musician for 10 years and um those are bases not guitars but >> Oh my god. John you have done everything but copyrighting, guitar. >> Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I was Yeah, I'm I'm very much into like pushing pushing the limits of everything. >> Awesome. >> But so yeah, I got to tour with bands and opened for David Bowie once and that was very cool. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was fun. Um >> yeah, abandoned Dallas I played in. But the So the there's only there's only

12 notes, right? >> Yeah. >> And Yeah. So, if you count the notes, right? Um, so 12 and and you can debate the octave of on that, but let's just let's just say 12 because it's a nice round figure. Um, and we're not getting into a tonal music or anything like that, but but in traditional western music and and everything that you've heard in your entire life, every single thing that you've heard is a combination of those 12 notes. Is music going to run out anytime soon? >> Probably not. Yeah. Probably not. Yeah. >> Never.

Yeah, >> it's ever ever I mean you could it's it's it's it doesn't and that's what 12. Okay. So how many words are there? >> Yeah. You know so when you talk about like there's only so many ways to talk about collagen uh until somebody comes up with a new way to talk about collagen which always happens. It just always Seems to be that there's some new way of talking about it and that is the lead hook. That is in some cases it's the big idea. Most of the time it's the lead hook. So, what

we did with Benson, because I wanted Benson to be like strictly strictly an A-list level copywriting AI that it has my it has a misspelling of my name on it on purpose, but it does have my name in it, right? So, I had to have it sound somewhat like me. Uh, but >> but we needed a way to create lead hooks super fast. And so, what we would do is we we created this thing in Vincent called lead the lead hook generator and the lead generator. So we create so we'd go into lead hook generator

and just said go crazy just create 20 different ideas for how to approach this particular VSSL and just some of the ideas that we come up with there there's no way in h I can tell you from writing I don't know Hundreds of VSSLs there's no way in hell I would have come up with half of them. I I just I didn't see it. I couldn't I couldn't think you know let alone to come up with it in 15 seconds. There's just no way. It's like it's like an unfair advantage. >> Yeah. >> Of having

this. So, and some of them, you know, you wouldn't like and then some of them were just like, "Oh my god, this is just that's killer, man. We Never even thought about that." Um so AI when it's done right not um chat GBT per se but when AI is done right you can come up with so many different lead ideas and then see how like our AI is very well trained blend that into the lead so automatically boom you have a different lead the other thing you can do with a lead and I love this

again this is I'm not trying to talk about the software a lot but it's just that happens to be that I do this With software is I I we teach this in in in lead alchemy that take a lead that is currently exists and we have a tool called stylizer in Benson and what it does it says okay go find the style that you want to emulate and stick your lead in here or whatever it is stick your lead in here then stick the style that you like and it doesn't mimic it. It actually figures

out from the style well how are they how are they processing this? how how are what is what is the The nature of the style? What's the rhythm? What's the pattern? How are they saying their goals? Everything. And so what I tell people to do is go out and find the number one VSSL in the world, but not in your space. >> Just find a top VSSL. Just find it doesn't matter what space it's in >> and then go find one of the top 10 in your space. So you create boom, you got three leads.

You got your original lead, you got your restylized lead with the Number one VSSL and like let's say it's Alex or Mosy or something. I I I don't know. >> I don't know if Alex, do you do VS? Um I don't think he does, but uh but but you obviously could. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I don't know. >> Maybe it's Greg or maybe Mind Valley. I don't know who's the top >> M take uh Yeah. Take take something that uh um Mind Valley wrote Vision. Well, not Vision, but Vision Steam um but or Or whatever.

And and so Vision, you know, who's a genius marketer, by the way, but um and a nice guy, his writers, and I know several of them, they're they're killer. I mean, Peter Kell was one of them, just killer writer, right? >> But he has a style that's very distinct. His style is going to be way different than Frank Kern, >> of course. >> But if you took his style and then Frank Kern style, because his style for for For that's why I like going with a different approach. Why is it? So, think about it psychologically.

People are thinking, well, this is a weight loss offer. I'm just using weight loss as an example. Why would I go to Mind Valley, which is more like woo woo in psychology? >> Yeah. >> Well, if it's woowoo psychology and spirituality, but it's working. >> Yeah. >> It's working to millions of millions of dollars. So, what if something in there could work for over here? What if something that that Donnie French wrote for golf could work for this AI offer? What if the styles could work? Not the language obviously, but the styles. So, that's a

quick way to get a lead redone instantly. Well, instantly is, well, I say instantly, within seconds. You know, that just requires a little bit of of of homework on your part. And that's where The human element comes into AI. So, um, the AI will eventually get to the point where it can scrape live. Well, there's to we can scrape live now, but but but where it can go out and go out and find the number one VSSL in the world and they can figure that out. Like, it'll get to that point. Well, we're not there

yet. Okay. We're not there quite yet. Um, and there's there's a lot of technical reasons why, but if you are following your craft, if you are if you Are interested in becoming the best market you can be, then you know what offers are working and what what isn't working. >> Yeah. >> So, by the way, and I'm not saying by like for example, um, I grabbed Adam Steer's offer u uh for he Adam is a friend of mine. He wrote rewrote an offer for Brad Pylon, the guy that wrote uh Eat Stop Eat like 20

years ago. And I I I need to reach out to Adam because I Don't know. I actually used it in a video that I just did and said, "Okay, I think this is what I think Adam just rewrote wrote a letter in his affiliate. I'm not sure. I haven't even checked the affiliate links cuz you could just click the link and see. I just didn't do it." And whatever he did, it's working because it's the number one weight loss book on on ClickBank right now. So, and so I took his style and applied it to

a golf letter. >> Well, why wouldn't that work? It's not like golfers are not humans. So, whatever is working in this human psychology area, it may be something weird. It may be something like that you can't that you as a golf copywriter would never have thought of as Adam as a weight loss copyriter. Yeah. So, that's where I'm coming from and that's where we we we we thought through it with the team here at Benson to where how can we have how can we get the best results Possible. So, we've had insane results from people

doing this like like I just had a guy say I just I just used Benson to rewrite a lead for something and use styizer and it became beat the control by 40%. So, well awesome. There's a reason why I did that, right? It's not like he isn't a great copywriter. It's that he doesn't write in that style. So, I don't write like David Deutsch, you know, or I I love David, but I don't write like him. Um, and he doesn't write Like me. So, so, so it'd be a really good thing if we could if

he could write like me momentarily in in uh maybe a supplement offer for anti-aging or whatever. And I don't I've never written one. So, um so that kind of thing is I'm just giving you guys hints. Now, granted, to do this effectively, you need you need a tool. You need Benson to be honest with you. Um you've got like if You can do this in Claude like if you upload the the letter you want to Stylize and upload your letter >> and it it's I know the differences. The thing that frustrates me is I can

I'll see the differences and I'm like oh like >> you have some limits also when it comes to tokens. So you probably not be able to do everything. >> Yeah, there there's that. Claude's really really picky about tokens. uh open air much less so I think they're going to get less so with Deep Seek coming out that that's you know it's Basically going to give run for the money >> probably >> but um but yeah but you don't have those issues with Vincent and you don't have it Vincent talking back to you Claude loves to

be woke you know >> I don't feel comfortable writing a weight loss offer [ __ ] yourself man I'm not I've literally told that like like multiple times I don't feel comfortable people should accept their Bodies the way they are I could just see the the obese blue-haired feminists behind behind this it's like you know charge of it. >> John let me ask something do you think that we can use Benson to for example we can input maybe some old copy maybe something from Gary Halbert Gary Ben I don't know from these guys and maybe

ask him to get this idea like the actual idea and then just write in another way to the VSSL format. >> Oh yeah yeah that's what we use stylizer for. So, uh, you can also do it like it it not to get technical here, but but when you write a VSSL, we ask you for a focus and style. Like if you want to focus on something for the lead, just type it in if it's we're promptless. So, we don't there's no prompts there. If you have a style that you like, you can use up to

500 words to in in actually creating a VSSL. So, you could use like 500 words of I think it's a 500, might Be a,000, but um that Gary Halbert, for example, you could use that and say match this style and it will do a really good job of that. Then we have a tool called stylizer where that's specific to stylizing something. So one thing I like to do is get a lead that I like. So just let Benson write its own. Like I could say, "Oh, I this lead is this this is killer. I like

what what the things that it's covering." Right? Get a lead hook. Generate a lead hook. Generate a big Idea. I always ask people to do that first. Okay. Get something you like. Let it write around it. Then pull that into stylizer and go, "Okay, now stylize it with Gary Halbert." And you can put a whole Gary, you know, put 5,000 words I think in there. Um, so there's different ways you can skin the cat here. >> Yeah, but that's Forecorech. How how do you think that people should add these eight AI tools to their Companies

to their processes? So, for example, when someone is writing their their own VSSL, it makes completely sense that they're just going to use it. If there's like one person business, but for example, here in Brazil, we have people that have 100 employees with a copy chief and then lots of copyriters beneath them. So do you think that maybe like the the young copyright they should still use the AI or it's more probable that they will just mess it up and then They just should write something they just give the AI AI to the sorry the

copy to the copy chief so they so he we use the AI to make it better or how do you see that the the these AI tools into the copyrightiting process of a real company a big company >> right okay so let me let me use another um analogy if I can um >> of Let's say that that when I grew up, my dad taught me how to change a tire. >> Yeah. What happens if you get a flat? So, I I had like numerous flats driving the way I drive. And so, I like pull

over, you know. Okay. Crap. Flat tire. Change the tire. You know, I had to do it sometimes when it was cold and raining. It sucked, right? Yeah. >> So, you're changing a tire, you know, whatever. I I I I never wanted to be a mechanic. I used to race motocross and so I had a team to to >> You also used to race motocross, man. Oh My god. >> Yeah, dude. I'm like Yeah. Yeah. You gota understand everything. So, >> you can do a whole lot in your life if you Yeah. I have proof of

all this, by the way. So, my my knees are proof of the motocross, but but yeah. So, but I I couldn't like I could change spark plugs and stuff like that. I couldn't do jack with the bike. I I never wanted to learn anything about the engine. I just wanted to ride the damn thing. You guys do the Engine, I do the writing. let's just keep it that way, right? And um that's uh so I was kind of the same way with the cars, but I knew how to change a tire. Makes sense that you

know how to change a tire. And so then AAA comes along and it's not like you go, well, now I don't need to I should never learn to change a tire. Well, the the physical skills necessary to figure out like, okay, the strength or whatever to jack The car up, to get the bolts off, uh you know, that be able to kind of do something with your hands. That stuff is still super important today, right? Right now, but now with okay, AAA, Uber, soon to be uh within a year robots. >> It's like, hey, I

got tire there's, you know, within 10 years cars will change their own tire. There'll be zero need to do this, right? But the fundamental need underneath it of getting to know, getting to work with your hands and Understanding the value of doing that will should never go away. So, I liken that to copy. It's it's you're the need to physically write copy is rapidly deteriorating. It is going fast and it's way faster than people realize. We're going to have upgrades to Benson coming out soon that that will just freak you out. I mean, it's like

it's there it's things are getting better and we're kind of helping lead the way in getting getting better, right? Um, so right now We tell everyone very simply, use this as a tool like you would use any tool in a tool belt. >> This just happens to be the hammer. >> Okay, it's the tool that you're going to use the most. If you're a carpenter, you're going to use a hammer more than anything. So So probably uh but so this is this is the hammer. Okay, this this is the tool or the drill if you

will. Um and then you know claw and these kind of things, they're they're great. They're Great refining tools. They're great for doing other things like books and stuff like that. Although we got a good book builder. Um, but you you got to understand how the tools function, but if you're looking at this, and here's the problem. Let's say that you know nothing about working with your hands, nothing at all, and you call AAA or Uber or whatever, and or you call you call somebody and they fix the flat, but they do a really crappy job.

You have no Idea. >> Yeah. Like, how would you possibly know if you have no knowledge at all about this? You wouldn't possibly know. So, it certainly pays you to know copy. And copy is way way more important than changing a tire. I mean, as far as like changing your tire, there's only so many ways you can screw that up. I mean, you can leave bolts off. You But but if you don't know the bolts are supposed to go on there, you are screwed, right? You Are completely screwed. Uh so, so that's kind of that

way. If you don't know that that a lead should contain some NLP or a lead should contain a hook or the lead shouldn't be about you, if you don't know the basics of copywriting, which most people don't, you are screwed. AI, especially if you're using chat or something like that, it's going to write. If you're trying to prompt it to get you if you're just using prompts for copy, good luck. It's it's good luck With that. But that will change eventually where it would be it will get better and better and better. There are just

AIs like ours that do nothing but that. So they're never going to be as good as that because because when you like you guys, you know, you do when you said like that's all we do. We do VSSL hosting and we we help VS period. That's all we do. That's exactly how you uh I know the guy that Jason that started Base Camp and he used to be a FileMaker Coder back in the day. >> Oh. and I knew him back when I owned the the design advertising thing. And um we talk on the phone

occasionally, but uh he said, "Hey, I'm going to move to the internet." And this was in 1997. >> Oh, >> 1998. I'm like, "In dude, why?" It's like, "This is got to understand this was like before the before the internet was the thing." He goes, "Man, everything's everything's moving the Internet." I go, "Really? How's that even work?" I I didn't have any idea. A year later, I'm like telling everybody, dude, it's like 1998. I'm going go, "If you're not on the internet, you're just stupid." You I'm telling people they're going to be buying their groceries

from the internet because I once I learned what he was talking about, I was like, "Oh god, I totally see it." And people would laugh at me. We'd put like email addresses on business cards. >> Yeah. >> And our customers would say, "Can you just take that off? No one will ever use it." >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Website addresses. No one. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah. And then then we It's so funny. They'd say, "Oh, you have to put http colon." You know, it's it's back in the K9 days, right? So, this is the same

thing you So, now no one questions Having a URL. In fact, people will have a business card with nothing but the URL of the website. >> Exactly. >> So, it's gone completely full circle. But if you don't understand the psychology of a business card design, you're screwed. It's it's the same thing. If you don't get the psychology, so if you don't get the psychology of copy, you're you're screwed. That's why we still teach copywriting like it was Like you're writing it from scratch. But I teach it from an ef in fact I coined the term

copy refiner. Like you're not a copywriter, you're a copy refiner. >> Copy. >> Your job now is to be a copy refiner. So in other words, take the take the AI, take your human copy and like do what we do. We optimize copy for conversions. So that's what I teach. How do you optimize AI or written human copy for conversions? Same thing that that's Going to be ex that will be a career for the next two years maybe. And then after that AI is going to going to lap that. you still need to understand if

it's you need to be able to look at it and be able to tell. So that's how I think that people should implement it. They should they should they should have to look at it um they should have to be able to look at things and see if it works or not. They should be able to tell if it's going to work or not. That that that's The long-winded way of saying that. So So use these tools judiciously, but but learn learn the stuff. You just don't have to learn how to do it by hand.

>> Got it. Got it. All right, John. So uh thank you so much for being here today. This was actually the last question that I asked you. And for those at home that are listening us, if you're in Brazil, if you're in the United States or whatever, you should check out bansson.ai. It's bns.ai. It will appear here on the screen and it will also be on the uh description. So, you can just go there and click it. It will be actually it will be easier than just typing in your computer or whatever. You can do

whatever you want. Just make sure you go there, check it out. And then that's it, John. And man, thank you so much. And you actually you you have no idea how much of a fan I am of you. And yeah, I mean this thing Here, Ver, my company only exists because you had this crazy idea like, hey, let's make every word a headline, every phrase a headline. What what if that that would happen? So that that's kind of crazy how these things can compound over time. So you had that idea. You had no idea that

maybe like some uh years after that a crazy Brazilian guy would create a software. So, thank you for that. My life changed because of you and lots of Brazilians That that are watching this who make VSSLs almost every month to to make money to have a better life. >> So, thanks for that. >> And that's it, man. And I wish you a happy life. Okay. >> Thank you so much. It's great talking to you. >> All right. Thank you. And guys, this was another episode of Vtor Podcast and I see you on the next one.

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