Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands prepares to step down after more than 30 years on the throne her son will take over as the country's first king in more than 100 years reviving the debate over the role and relevance of the modern monarchy hello there I'm sure he goes you're with inside story now there's some of the richest people in the world enjoying privilege and position but not always power the abdication of the Netherlands Queen Beatrix is again casting a spotlight on the world's royal rulers their wealth the cost of keeping them and the benefits to
the people they rule over there are 45 nations in the world with a monarch and these fall broadly into two categories there are the absolute monarchies those with substantial power over legislation and the rule of law these are largely found in the Middle East including Jordan Qatar and Saudi Arabia then there are the constitutional monarchies those with limited or ceremonial roles these include ten European countries Japan Thailand and the sixteen Commonwealth countries that have Britain's Queen Elizabeth as their head of state the Netherlands also falls into this latter category their queen announced her abdication in
a nationally televised speech if trade on of Nitra on the doms metro survive I'll follow I therefore stepped down not because the burden of office is too heavy but because of the conviction that the responsibility for our nation should now lie in the hands of a new generation it is with the greatest confidence that I will hand over the kingship on 30th of April of this year to my son the Prince of Orange he and Princess máxima fully prepared for their future tours well let's introduce today's guests in London Andrew Child director of the anti-monarchy
campaign group Republic joining us from Amsterdam marc van der linden he's the chief editor of the dutch publication royalty magazine and also in london David Haig a financial marketing expert and CEO and founder of brand finance gentlemen welcome to the program Marc let me start with you there had been speculation for quite some time the Queen Beatrix was going to step down in fact there is a family history of that isn't there yeah we are used to the fact that the Queen's in our country are stepping down our abdicating in favor of their the heir
to the throne at a certain age and as you said a lot of people were expecting the and that queen beatrix was announcing her abdication and what feelings is her abdication cause I mean she was a popular queen wasn't she she's extremely popular and but people respect her decision they are not in shock they're just in shock by the fact that they didn't expect it on a Monday evening they expected to do it on a birthday or the birthday of the Crown Prince but not yesterday evening but they respect to a decision they are happy
that she's going to have some time to enjoy her life do whatever she wants to do and that we're going to have a new king and an even more popular Queen hmm well monarchies are popular in certain countries not universally so though Andrew I know that Republic is part of a an international alliance of Republican organizations that are against monarchies why is that well we're against the monarchy because we believe that all of us are born equal not some are born more equal than others okay I think that's why most people around the world there
are opposed to monarchies in fact most countries are republics these days but lots of families are born into into power and privilege they're not necessarily royal but the royal family is just one of many hierarchical families and they provide our head of state I mean that's the point on becoming the Britain's head of state okay what what what about that intangible feeling of national identity I mean people talk about the British Queen as giving them a sense of a British identity is does that not count for anything well I think you're talking about history which
is very complex thing I don't think our history should necessarily dictate our future you know on that basis we'd still have slavery I don't think the Queen these days does really reflect British identity I think most people would say the British identity have more to do with our public institutions like our NHS our school system and these are things that the our war family don't use it's an interesting point David you know the question of what makes you feel British and whether the monarchy is is part of that is is one thing the other thing
is that people argue that you know they cost money they cost the taxpayers money well I really don't think that's a very valid argument at all the there are two issues here one is an issue of principle whether or not families should inherit the title to a head of state and then the other one is the pragmatic argument about whether it works in practice and whether it works economically I think if you actually contrast constitutional monarchies with constitutional presidencies I think many people would say there is liquor to choose between them in fact they might
not want to choose the American system the Indian system or many other systems in preference to a constitutional monarchy they think it's it's quite a neat way of giving them little power but giving them the headship of state okay putting that argument aside on the economic front there is no question that the money that it costs to run the royal family is very limited and the benefits that they confer are very significant and it would be foolish economically to actually dump the royal family because one of the arguments against having royal families as a cost
of keeping them on top of the royal family tree in Europe is the Netherlands outgoing Manik last year Queen Beatrix cost Dutch taxpayers a little over 48 million dollars that eclipsed Britain's Queen Elizabeth big cuts to the royal budget meant her individual bill went down to some 46 million dollars King Juan Carlos of Spain gets almost 11 million dollars from the Spanish government that's relatively low he too is making cuts though because of the economic crisis and by contrast the cost of having a president in France is actually a whole lot more the public bill
for francois hollande is estimated at almost a hundred and thirty-seven million dollars now just a note that none of those figures by the way include the millions spent on security marks so it seems that the outgoing Queen Beatrix is the the most expensive royal family certainly in Europe well I don't I don't really believe that it's a question how you look at the figures in the Netherlands they're very transparent and every cost of the monarchy is added to that bill in other countries for instance Belgium you don't see a lot of course they are hidden
in the cost of other ministries in that's in that country so it's it's very hard to compare the cost of of the monarchy in every country if you don't have all the the figures really you also have to look at the fact that nobody is really opposing the monarchy in this country roughly eighty percent is in favor of the monarchy and even the parties that are Republican are not putting their you know their feelings about the monarchy really in their statements in election times because they know it's going to lose them some votes and read
you agree with that no one is really opposing the monarchy in these countries first of all I have to challenge your assessment of the costs of monarchy across Europe and Britain's monarchy is by far the most costly we're looking at 200 million pounds a year and more 120 million of that alone this security cost and it's huge it Dwarfs anything else really what by comparison if you're looking at how much the President of the Republic of Ireland costs you're looking at less than 1 million pounds so on a value-for-money basis you know the Windsors just
don't really cut it at all alright well David's our man with the figures on this because David I know that you've tried to quantify some of the financial benefits that the UK royal family bring III read that one calculation has the the jubilee celebrations estimated to have generated something like 2.4 billion pounds worth of revenues can we quantify what they give back to us yes we can but it's not it's not entirely straightforward we have to pull together a number of data sources to calculate what it is and the way we looked at it was
we put a value on the assets that are employed in running the monarchy so we have things like the Crown Estate the Royal Collection the Duchy of Lancaster the Duchy of Cornwall and they are worth about thirty billion dollars but they belong to the state so there's no loss to the state we then look at the revenues that are generated and they come from increased tourism support for UK businesses general level of morale now there are costs but most of the costs would be there anyway if we had a presidency a very small fraction of
those royal costs would be removed in fact it's arguable they would be at least the same if not more because I think it's fair to say the RAL family are very parsimonious in the way that they operate so I don't think there's much of an argument on the cost front now there is an argument that some of the uplift in revenue is would be there any way but I didn't believe that I think some of it would like but a large chunk of it comes from the true royal family being there rather than the palaces
being there alone what do you say to that Andrew I see you shaking your head there I'm sorry but there David no Falls well there was a huge hit on the economy as a result of the Jubilee I mean you know it was estimated to be a net loss of about 1.2 billion and you know part of that you know councilman yeah an extra public holiday and I'm not going to argue with people you know having a bit of extra holiday people work very hard but you know let's let's get our facts straight tourism has
always been but III absolutely disagree I absolutely disagree being a knight I'm sorry me well you must let me finish on the toys in margin you've you've had your say David now David you can answer if tourism was really you know a big pull for people then the seat and symbol of the British monarchy Buckingham Palace would not be struggling to make it into the top 50 visitor attractions in the UK and I'm afraid it does struggle and you know the notion of tourism is based on the idea that if we move to a republic
then you know all of our royal history would just disappear and that's clearly nonsense if you look at the Republic of France and you look at the number of people that visit Versailles every year I mean it's in the its millions of people it's in the world's top 50 tourist destinations so yeah the idea that this really has any kind of bearing on tourism is just a complete nonsense David what do you say to that hope you know once do you want me to answer their question well I think the point that I would make
is yes last year there was an extra days holiday as a result of the Jubilee and yes that cost the economy money but let's face it that was the Queen's sixtieth anniversary she had one on her 50th and 125th you don't get that kind of effect very often whereas the uplift effect on the UK economy in terms of tourism accommodation merchandise retail goes on year after year after year and I think most commentators would accept that is the case we've calculated that it's at least a billion a year of extra revenue from that activity now
the other thing that seems to be being ignored is the effect of coats of arms and royal endorsements to english products we've calculated that that brings in a billion dollars a year for those firms and all you've got to do is look at places like a sprees and Fortnum's and all the others to see that it conveys a level of luxury to those businesses which creates extra demand and extra prices there's no question economically that the royal family is beneficial mark what's your view on this well I do I do think the British royal family
has a problem because it's it's too big what a Queen Beatrix has done in this country is to modernize the royal family as its the main characters is the Queen at the moment and the crown prince his wife and that's it the rest of the family is not getting a state allowance they are making their own money they are paying taxes personal personal fortune is estimated at something like 40 billion dollars now the question is is in this day and age of austerity cuts and you know the economic crisis that many European countries are facing
many critics might say that there is no place for a privileged to story like the Queen the father of the Queen said that the Royal Family's value is around 250 million euros that's far less than what you just said I think they would gladly change the thing that things they have for the money you just mentioned they don't own the palaces they are getting a salary from the states actually they're cutting down cost all the time I'm not defending the fact that they dare it a lot of money but it also brings in a lot
and I think for smaller countries like the Netherlands it works very well to have a monarchy and to have a royal representative for state functions like state visits for the economics last week I was with the Queen in Brunei and Singapore with a huge business navigation they brought in a lot of Dutch economy and that's working very well ok so let's just talk about how the Royals are perceived and another of their roles which is as role models and how I can go badly wrong Prince Harry hits the headlines earlier this year when pictures of
him emerged partying in Las Vegas naked Princess stéphanie of Monaco was labeled a wild child by her own mother Grace Kelly and she gained notoriety for affairs rather than royal duties and Juan Carlos of Spain caused a stir when he was caught on an elephant hunt in a Botswana holidaying with a woman who wasn't his wife Andrew when you hear stories like this do you feel that it adds to the argument that perhaps royal families have had their day well I think so I mean you noted to be fair to Harry we all sometimes sort
of fall short of the standards we set ourselves but to put these people on the pedestal and say they're better than the rest of us and have higher standards and the rest of us is clearly nonsense I mean yet not just looking at Harry in Las Vegas but you know also when he was talking about taking people out of the game in reference to killing people in Afghanistan it's really not appropriate but you know even the Queen lets us down sometimes I mean we had the dictators dinner when the Queen invited people over to celebrate
her Diamond Jubilee and these included the King of Bahrain the king of Swaziland and these people are dictators who brutalize their people mark do you think that the scandals like these damaged the Royals I mean scandals and Royals have been very good partners for centuries there's books written about them and I love reading them and everybody loves reading scandal don't we Prince Prince Harry nay it we we all enjoyed those pictures we all speaking about it at the same time President Clinton is cigars Monica Lewinsky we can add a lot of politicians who will also
create a scandal we're all humans that's what we say in the Netherlands David do we just put too much as opposed to too much value on all pressure on our Royals to fulfil certain roles well I think one thing is that it is fair as it is fair to say that the monarchy is being scaled back precisely to avoid some of those embarrassments with the minor Royals I mean clearly Harry is a young guy and he enjoys having a good time and as the last as Mark said you know everyone has a private life everyone
has a social life everyone has a sex life the trouble with our media is they are extremely intrusive on the royal family and every single move they make is being filmed they're not really allowed their privacy when you look at the things he's done generally speaking they're not particularly offensive and I think actually a lot of the things Harry has done who have made the Royals seem more attractive not less attractive to people let's have a look at the the kind of response we've had on Facebook it's a very mixed response as you can imagine
Arnold Richard Illuma Amari says it's still relevant so as to preserve our rich history and heritage we also had this one from Mariana Casilla a waste of taxpayers money useless marika Fox ads the European royal families in general do not rule as a leader they're the ones who maintain ties with other nations which in return helps our economies and Greg thorn says I think if there is to be any monarchy at all the New Zealand has the best system our queen is as far away as is geographically possible mark I was quite interested to hear
that there are some 21 royal families without a country to to reign over there all families are still there but their monarchies have been abolished oh they're even more of them but it's and they're all very sad and they all you know live in a state of denial and pretending that they're still I mean they're just by your Majesty your Royal Highness and they're they're not obviously anymore they're lost most of the property and that said and that's also in the heads of the the current monarchs obviously they don't want to lose their position they
don't want to and that's what Queen Beatrix is done her main thing was to you know handover the monarchy in a very good state to her son and she's done that there have been scandals but not created by the Queen there has been a lot of discussion but strangely the the Dutch still see her as a figurehead and they brought much rather see her at as head of state or her her son as ever state then a politician who is promising things that they even won't keep after the elections mark there's been various studies in
the UK there was one back in 2003 where the researcher concluded that although nearly half the people in that survey thought the monarch should simply be a figurehead with no power the vast majority were against replacing her with a president so I mean that doesn't seem to be any kind of campaign at about getting rid of the royal family absolutely not that as as as I said 80% of the Dutch are in favor of the monarchy there's no discussion and political parties who are political parties who are opposing the monarchy don't even make a big
thing of that because they are losing the Virts and at the same time most of the Dutch are very open and very liberal to which people who have Republican views it's not that they are against each other and most Republicans actually have said if Queen Beatrix has done a marvelous job it has done a marvelous marvelous job and that she has made it very difficult for them Andrew so arguing for a Republican who's not a popular political position is it well we represent about 25 percent of the British population you know so that's more than
twelve million people I would say that's a pretty significant voice given that we don't have huge access to the media we're certainly not getting anything like 25 percent of the media coverage of royal events but we are having a debate and opinion is changing progressively and you know I firmly believe you know come King Charles people will have serious doubts about the future of the monarchy and I you know I wouldn't be fighting the fight that I'm fighting if I didn't believe that during my lifetime we would have a republic you know it's interesting cuz
you talk about you know everyone should be born equal etc but the royal family in these countries are so benign I mean it could be a lot worse you look at Thailand where you can be sent to jail for even daring to mildly insult the king there that that's scarcely a great endorsement from on the key though is it I mean I've already identified for you many monarchies that you know did do a pretty dreadful job to be honest just because we have a slightly better one doesn't mean that that's the most optimal outcome but
frankly and I think they do much better in islands where they have presidents who have popularity up in the 90s you know and these are people who are well into their terms of office and they've been directly elected by the people and they speak for the people and there were countries all the time that are looking to move to becoming a republic Jamaica is the latest one day why do they want to do that because that you know it's democratic it's the right thing to do David do you agree with this an assessment from Andrew
that you know they will by the time Prince Charles becomes King there will be serious questions about whether the UK and other countries need a monarchy well I think obviously the questions about whether they should or shouldn't be a monarchy will go on and on and you know my views economically don't necessarily reflect my views politically I'm a liberal and I wouldn't expect to see a monarchy an unelected monarchy interfering in key decisions of state and I think the real acid test is whether they ever start to try and do that now Prince Charles over
the years they become quite vocal about various about various issues and the Queen by contrast basically keeps her mouth shut she doesn't express an opinion about anything she recognizes her role as a head of state who should not interfere and I think as long as that continues the monarchy will go on being popular if we have an unelected what about the morals odo policy i if if we have an unelected king who starts interfering I think we would have a problem and there may be a veto but it's not exercised and if it were I
think the antipathy to the royal family we know it we've just read I think you're not quite up to speed the reason popular is because it's perceived by the majority not to interfere Andrew what's your point about the veto well you know a freedom information investigations that have revealed that actually the Queen and Prince Charles do run the rule over our legislation and do pass comment on legislation because we allow the monarchy to veto legislation anything that affects as landholders you know comes under their purview much is your response to that and I don't know
what people don't well I think that that I'm the thing of with monarchy is that it's like the price of fish on the market one bet king and it all changes as Andrew has said there's a big chance that there's got to be some Republic's if if some royal families are not changing and not modernizing at the same time I will I don't think England is gotta be a republic in his lifetime gentlemen it's been a great discussion thank you very much indeed for taking part in today's the inside story I want to thank all
my guests Andrew child Mark Van der Linden and David Haig and before we go some online reaction to one of our previous programs on the issue of same-sex marriage Shawna left this post on our website she says about time those old archaic ideas went the way of the dinosaurs just like slavery and this from an on it is not a worldwide trend it's basically a Western trend it is not acceptable in Africa or Asia and that's it from us if you do want to send us any reactions then tweet us out to AJ inside story
or email us inside Sarita al jazeera dotnet but from ichigo's for now bye-bye you
