where the apostle and the prophet tend to see more future type things uh wisdom enables us to see a structure order uh the but it's a it's like you stand here tell us what you see yeah you stand here tell us what sort of pastor says well i see these people are hurting the apostle says well i see this is what god is building into the earth it's not a competition it's together we bring the whole picture and i just think it's necessary and beautiful [Music] bill we are here again uh having conversations about topics
that are meaningful to us things that we've been learning about you for 40 plus years yeah me i'm much younger so less time is on camera i have to be honest so the uh but we'll get a chance to talk about some of the things that people wonder and some things we've been learning about so thanks for being here yeah absolutely we got a chance to touch on some of this with chris but uh some folks think that we're part of nar the new apostolic reformation and it was a title i hadn't heard about until
somebody thought we were a part of it and so it's it's you know kind of interesting where are you in that discussion i don't i didn't even know what it was uh until not too long ago somebody asked me if i belonged and i asked well what is that so i i don't we don't belong to anything of that nature but we hardly agree with many of the things that some of our friends in different organizations are really pursuing just trying to become authentically biblical and fully living out what is in in scripture and sometimes
we get it right sometimes we don't but we're on that journey of are trying to explore what god has laid before us yeah and i think part of it is it in do it in tandem with the rest of the body of christ i would even say the catholic and the orthodox church and with i just there's 33 000 i think denominations protestant denominations or something like that so like we're trying to walk with all those guys there's a lot of apostles there i don't know but um so we're trying to do it uh not
as the way but as just part of the lord's team as he's bringing the good news the message to the earth and so part of that just can you talk about the fivefold ministry and how you see it is it is it for today oh yeah how do you you know understand your own role in that absolutely uh the scripture says ephesians 4 is our primary text for this that these gifts were given until we come to unity of faith to the knowledge of the son of god to a mature man and we're not quite
there yet and so those gifts were in operation they were released but for a specific purpose they were released to equip the saints to carry out the work of service they're not titles of identity they're not titles of exaltation it's not a hierarchy where we grow from this position to that position they are specifically graces that god puts on the life of an individual to demonstrate what jesus did in the earth what because he was all all five obviously it was the best of all five and i would say good apostles have an evangelist took
part as well and good teaching i mean you're you're a great teacher you've got that component so yeah it's it's not like this this is my lane everybody's down on my lane no yeah it's not it's not to be used for self-promotion it's not to be used for you know this is who i am everybody else stay away it's you know it's just it's a grace it's a function it's a perception on life that enables us to serve well yeah and to impact people and that's the main deal i i really don't care if i'm
called anything in fact i prefer people just call me bill this is true he likes people to call him bill and it's hard for some people so they some people just apologize he's like i have to call you pastor bill at least that's fine that's fine i'm called all kinds of things yes some of them are good well you were called a pastor when you first came here because coming out of the assemblies of god yeah denomination so but i mean you're you've got some pastoral but maybe not maybe not a ton of pastorals what
are you trying to tell me no i love your stories about counseling about how not great you were at it but the uh but partly i was here when we were on this journey when people started calling an apostle i remember you being super uncomfortable with it it wasn't a title you put you could grab for yourself just coming to terms with like do we even do this what are the implications can you do you mind talking some about your own personal journey sure how you let people call you that and what that's or what
do you want to say i uh i've believed in fivefold ministry as we call it for as long as i can remember certainly 40 45 years ago i had no problem with it but when you're called a specific title that makes you uncomfortable i don't review it theologically i just review it as you know i i that i don't like it you know i i i i it makes me feel real uncomfortable and uh and they're trying to honor and so what i've what i've been learning to do is uh is allow people to address
me in a way that's most comfortable for them but whenever they ask me what do you want to be called i mean i have this when i go to other churches or conferences say i say do you want to be called the apostle bill do you want to be called pastor bill let me smile just thinking about that but oh well it's true and they're just all they're trying to do is just is honor and respect whatever tradition i come from and i tell them every time i say you know i just i prefer you
just call me bill yeah and sometimes they can't do that so i let them run with whatever title but that's not the point the point is just uh is that we have that kind of a respect and a value for one another and i don't mind calling you know somebody else an apostle prophet or pastor or whatever i i do that all the time we have friends that uh they go by the title bishop and and i i honor them with that absolutely with that talent it's in the bible you know yeah so that's my
approach so what are the uh marks that have apostle paul talks about he bears the marks and that the i think the marks of an apostle were done amongst you or like so what are some of the things that you think kind of characterize that because we've been comfortable with pastors and teachers and evangelists yeah but we were uncomfortable and part of the church says prophets and apostles were a foundational gift that just was for a season and ended and that now it's the season of pastors teachers and evangelists and we would say no that
we don't think that's the way it is and yeah but it doesn't say that no it doesn't say that i think they look around the lack of them and go i guess they're gone and um and i think i talked about this with chris last time in that in the age of uh heresy you had to kind of enforce who's in charge of who and and what do we actually believe with the teacher and preacher and in the age of persecution as well you're like what should i die for that this codifying like this these
are the things these are people who are powerful and this is what we hold to what is important for the for the church but i digress you're going to talk about what one of the marks of apostle how do you what makes them unique do you know what to talk about this you just roll your eyes no sorry it's just a it's a huge it's a bigger subject than we have for this but and chris carries really a great great clarity on this more than i do to be honest but uh the way i look
at the the apostolic gift the apostolic calling is that both the apostle and the prophet have a their position gives them a perception of heaven and how it's to affect earth it's a culturizing role it's not that the prophet is more spiritual than the evangelist who is all about souls it has nothing to do with who's more spiritual it has to do with perception yeah it has to do with impact the pastor is moved by the needs of the sheep as he should be you don't want him dreaming about you know 100 years down the
road and and you you want him caring uh for the flock and so he has he's got a perception on the here and now the pain of this person the success of this one yes and that's a gift that god's given him it's a position of perception yeah where the apostle and the prophet tend to see more future type things wisdom enables us to see a structure order these steps brings about this result and and again it's not a more spiritual position i don't believe i don't think it's a hierarchy but it's a it's like
you stand here tell us what you see yeah you stand here tell us so the pastor says well i see these people are hurting the apostle says i see this is what god is building into the earth it's not a competition it's together we bring the whole picture and i just think it's necessary and beautiful yeah absolutely i mean i have more of a pastor teacher gift to me so i i do when i when i first kind of you were in my world because i was here you were actually here way before me but
then whatever but then i was on staff and then you came and can retain me on the staff but i much more pastor teacher i was like where are the sermons about how how to deal with anger like you know where are the sermons about how to have build a good family which weren't you were talking about heaven and miracles and the transformation of society and i'm like do we even like society i thought we were uh i thought we were against him so the uh in some ways that what you brought was so different
than my kind of denominationalism that i was raised in where it was just like we're focused on the sheep and the bible and maybe the evangelist believes in the loss but this idea of like god's still communicating through prophetic insight sometimes or that he has a blueprint um and a kind of a culture i think we happen upon this is that through our time together and in scripture i think paul created a culture right like think totally and that's what i see in you and us i think paul manwaring was one of the first ones
in our meetings to go like people like our miracles but they love the culture that we've created yeah and so that role of the apostle to gather a team and enculturate him maybe something isn't super obvious in scripture but i do think it's what you saw when paul and his his entourage his posse rolled into a place they were like the way these people relate the way they do scripture together the way they they work and labor so they don't get up we don't they don't take an offering from us they're actually you know trying
to work for free in our midst and build something in our midst i think that culture is actually contagious that exactly the apostle prophet pastor teacher and evangelist build together exactly and when you embrace what we would refer to as a kingdom culture it gives you hope because you're building unto something you're not just hoping to be rescued you're actually you you've embraced the assignment to bring about change in the world around us and and that for me is the real mark of the apostolic and the prophetic is is there is a heart for the
world around us and there is a plan a plan not to dominate or take control but a plan to influence and to serve well and i think that's the beautiful part of those gifts so for me that's what i think of when i think of apostle and prophet yeah and i i think there's a mistake in the church that the apostle is scrambling to get on top of the pyramid when paul clearly said he's the servant of all you're like we're the least they're the fools for christ so uh the idea of like the it's
the chief servant in the midst which actually kind of helps create that culture as well so wherever that anxiety is like i would say that marks a true apostolic leadership or servanthood and humility that should be part of it the ability the ability to endure suffering for the for the cause of the kingdom we see signs and wonders are a part of it as well i think paul and peter interpreted old testament scripture for their communities you know so there's a measure of that obviously the teacher does that as well but the apostle is doing
some of that so i do think it's important gift for today and that the church is going to continue to become even more beautiful as we kind of rediscover without anxiety without domination people sometimes afraid apostles are going to control and dominate i'm like there's a whole lot of churches where pastors were leaders or the board yeah or just a mean person in the congregation is controlling and dominating so you don't need the label to actually have that happen it's it's a tragedy of some of our spiritual environments [Music]
