Carl Rogers on Marriage: An Interview with John and Nancy (1972)

[Music] [Music] carl r rogers as the originator of client-centered therapy and a vigorous champion of a humane person-oriented tradition in american psychology has been without doubt the most influential leader in the counseling profession through his many writings which include on becoming a person client-centered therapy and on counseling and psychotherapy and through national leadership which has included the presidency of the american psychological association dr rogers has served as a model of scientific integrity personal openness genuineness and warmth to two generations of professionals from his early interest in individual therapy his interests have broadened to include a

deep and abiding concern with the process of education best expressed in his book freedom to learn the potential of the encounter group movement reflected in his book carl rogers on encounter groups and marriage and the relationships between men and women the subject of his book on becoming partners in this film dr rogers interviews a couple about what the experience of partnership has been like for them in a commentary after the interview he indicates what he observed and learned from participating in the session you're nancy is that right right me too john yeah good um i

think what i'd hoped for is that i'd like to know what in your marriage has been what have been some of the most meaningful or significant aspects or elements they might be good they might be bad [Music] you might both have quite the same point of view you might have very different points of view but it's that kind of thing that i'd like to [Music] see if i can get from you and part of the reason is that i think that in spite of all the books about marriage and all that kind of stuff there

is very little that gives a picture of what marriage is like or partnerships are like whether marriage or not uh as seen through the eyes of the couple uh and that's what i really am interested in how how some of these different things seem to you individually and so i guess that's enough an introduction i'll just return to my original question uh what are some of the things that to do you seem like the the important things the things that you like or don't like about your partnership either now or in the past or if

you want to guess about the future i feel one thing i i really like is that um i feel that we grow together you know it kind of sounds like cliche that's what you always hear about you know it's supposed to be i really feel like that like if i get interested in something i can get john interested in it and i feel that that i'm more compatible or he's more compatible with me now than we were at the beginning you know he's he shares a lot more interest than he did at first just because

you know he's interested in what i'm interested in and i really like that feeling are you interested in more of what he's interested in well i try to be i you know i am too but it's that aspect of the growing in the things you share is it and it's it doesn't have to start out shared either it can start out as an independent venture and the other person begins you can have an interest in something and gradually perhaps he i think i feel the same um dynamic that nancy does that we in a lot

of areas are growing in the same direction and and finding new interests together on the other hand i one of the things that's been most meaningful to me i think is in finding someone who i i feel is a very compatible partner that we share a lot of values that we always did share a lot of values and see things very similarly and i i think there's a there's a lot in that to me i'd go out with a lot of other um girls perform at nancy and i never felt that there's someone quite as

special to me as nancy turned out to be and that that is in considerable part at least a matter of really sharing some of the same values that yeah i think so i think it does amount to that um you look young has this been going on for a long time or not well we've we've been married for six months and we lived together for a year and a half before that about two and a half years knowing each other in two years uh what are some of the uh is it the is it a

smooth kind of marriage or does it go up and down or a smooth kind of partnership because i really would like to include the whole period i i feel like it's smooth you know fairly so you know like i every day today i i feel happy which is one of the things i like about the marriage it's not that i can i can sit and intellectually think um you know this is a good person for me but just you know i get up and i feel happy about this thing occasionally i think we we might

have a few days in a row where we really get on each other's nerves but it's not a big problem that suddenly cropped up but some outside thing we're worrying about that's making us more irritable um i guess i also see it as being uh fairly smooth i i feel like uh when we right when the process of getting married that at that time it got to be a little bit bumpier in terms of my own anxieties about changing somehow the nature of our commitment people we talked to seem to suggest that it would be

different after we're married and i guess in all honesty when i looked at some of the types of lies that um some of our married acquaintances seem to be living i was a little bit worried that i don't know if i really wanted that but you hoped it wouldn't be like you hoped it wouldn't be like that i guess i did i i anticipated that it might be and i wasn't sure and so i think right at the time of getting married i i was a little bit um worried about what it might turn out

to be like but uh things have gotten very smooth again yeah but at the time of the marriage uh that really gave you more concern than the partnerships that had preceded it yeah it did it did i think it before i could really feel that that um every day we were kind of re-choosing each other and that um you didn't have to be together you were together right that somehow there was a freedom that that in marriage might not exist how about you did marriage make any difference as far as you were concerned no i

i really don't feel any difference at all you know john every once in a while say something about um you know i i do see a difference and it wasn't like this before you know not that it got especially worse but i really i don't know that i felt married before i was or that i still feel like i'm living together instead of married but it all seems very much the same but at least for you that was no great to know great change it was a good thing for me because um while we were

living together i was worried about my parents finding out about so this took a lot of tension off and that we didn't have to hide this right and and you spoke to the first as though you're able to do what you want to do what you're interested in and get a gun that's able to do the same can you say any more about that well i i think this was a very conscious decision that you know we said listen we both have to be free to do what other things you know including dating other people

and things like that because one person can't be everything to another person i have some interest that you know even though john's interested in hearing something about it he can't be as fully enthusiastic about it as i am so if i want to go out and do it by myself or find a friend to do it with then you know i expect to be fine into this time and i think that's really a good thing you know we really like it especially when we see how this is often what has fouled up other couples that

they have all these great expectations of the other person and they can't do things outside of the line but you feel quite free to do what you feel free to relate to john but also if you're quite free to do other things that he might not be in on dating and going i feel that it's really necessary too you've got to bring in other things from outside the relationship two two independent people relating not not two people that have sewed together in a marriage anything to say on that yeah i was just thinking that that

really resonates with me and that i think the greatest thing which has made me feel relaxed about the marriage is i feel in nancy i have the freedom to be myself do whatever i want to do and at at times some of the things even scare me you know the things that that can i i might think of her or feel like doing and and nancy you know it's very accepting about that and you know with her it's all right to do it and i know that really makes me feel good because i can feel

i can really be myself and do what i i want to do at the time and um i think if it weren't for that i would still feel somewhat threatened with the idea of being married that it would be a constraining force instead of one of which i i'm not constrained at all anymore than i used to be you don't want to be in a box and you don't find yourself in a box right and i i think i realize at times too that i don't i can't i don't reciprocate with nancy as much at

times i i place more of the role expectation upon her than she does upon me or i can't be completely as free with her as she is with me and i know how good it feels to me uh you mean you can't quite give her the full amount of freedom that she gives you is that what you're saying incidentally if i ask questions that you don't care to answer don't hesitate to say no to that i'd rather have you be really free in what you say than to be you know pretend an answer but you

said uh the freedom that she gives you sometimes leads you into things that even scare you would you be willing to give an example or say what you mean by that oh yeah i guess a good example is um right after we first got married i still really wanted to go out with some other girls you know sometimes it might be more often than i thought was appropriate you know or somehow didn't feel exactly right being married and yet going out and very close with dating situations and i think i feel the role expectations still

more than nancy does that um when you're married society and most of your friends see you in the traditional role of being married you're supposed to be a husband talk to your husband a lot of things go with that there's a lot of um there's a lot of things in society which really uh strengthen the idea that there are certain things which are very inappropriate and everyone most people live up to them and so i think when i considered some of the things that that we seem to do or that i seem to be suggesting

that i wanted to do at least what i felt that i wanted to do i still kind of hesitate and think geez you know i wonder if i dare say this and answer you're right i wonder if it really is right you know if i should be doing this but but nancy always was able to um say jesus all right and it doesn't bother me she's supportive of you even when you when i'm not yourself yeah you're not sure yourself uh i'd be interested to know i don't think that's a common attitude how how do

you feel you came to the point of view of feeling yeah go ahead you can you're free to do what you want to do well i i really don't know how to too much how it started it just seemed to to the conscious idea was you know it was very easy flowing you know he didn't suddenly make a decision one night just how it had to be the emotional process is is a you know a lot more of a lagging thing where i remember one particular period of about two months it's the springtime and john's

going wild this is at a time before we're married but living together he's going wild taking girls out every day and it was really getting to me then and i would feel very upset and but i'd you know try and be objective about it and of course come out being very you know crooked and that that is just kind of gradually worn off because every time he goes out with a girl and you know comes back and you know even if he's made love with her you know whatever it's it's still he comes back to

me and i'm an important one and you know so in spite of those uh dates and affairs and so on still it sort of reaffirms you right because each time it comes back to me so it's like he said i you know i'm still was not really shopping but i still get to see all these girls and you're still the one i choose so it's a constant probably real choice that he really does choose you so i can you know in ways i i really like it and you feel as great of freedom as he

does i gather there was some little difference in that i wanted do you feel as much freedom to throw out the fellas as he does well not not usually but it's not usually a practical problem because i'm not a very social type and i don't prefer to go out with with people you know anyone and so on occasion when it does come up i think i have more of a problem you know not the teacher didn't go out but he often has um says well isn't it kind of dangerous you don't know this guy you

know he doesn't know the girls he goes out of course it probably is more dangerous than life hearts but you know it does feel kind of constraining listen don't go out with him you know you don't know what he's like and so it ends up as kind of constrainment but he's not doing it maliciously because he's he wants to constrain him just because he's honestly concerned he's not a real concern and is there any usual answer to what happens then i mean do you do you tend to say well i can take care of myself

or do you tend to say well if you're concerned though no i i don't go ahead if he's concerned i never have ever i don't think so i think that's why i feel like i can train you more but then you do me no i'm i'm it's not that i usually wanted to go out that much there was somebody that i really wanted to go out with you know maybe i would i would first try and convince him and it would probably come down to the point well if that's the way you feel then go

ahead and do it and i'd go ahead and do it even knowing that he had some reservations about it he said that when when he was before you're made when he was going through this sort of spree of dating a lot of other girls it really got to you but what were your feelings and you said you were upset but can you say a little more about that i guess i just felt jealous and that you know sometimes he was out while i was in class so i couldn't be be with him anyhow but often

he'd be out three hours when i was only busy one hour you know and he kind of gets feeling well why didn't he wait for me and it would have gone out to two hours anyhow and it's just you know you kind of wish it was you that was chosen instead of the other person but objectively i'd think well you know of course it's more exciting about a different girl and i'm aware of the fact that john really loves meeting new people you know he loves to talk to him and find out all about them

so it's really an exciting process for him so you know i try and control myself that but you still have the emotional feeling of you know jesus waited for me your mind says what he's doing is perfectly okay it's really okay only not all of you it's a little harder in actual process part of you talk to the other part one says yeah hurts why didn't they why didn't they think they'd mess with me another part says sure it's okay yeah we ended up in a lot of crazy arguments and you know where that kind

of thing where your emotional and objective rational sides are at war it often turns out really cockeyed because i i'd make up some kind of a logical argument or something it's just really weird or your mind is trying to justify what you really feel and what comes out as a kind of a nutty argument so that that was kind of unhabitable um can you say anything about any of the what difficulties have you had didn't you in your period of partnership what would you think for some of the uh no stressful points obviously this was

one when he was coming out with a lot of girls are there others i think for me the most difficult thing has been a reflection of what we're just talking about in that um i really like going out with other people i i tend to like groups of three or four five six people instead of you know just nancy and i being by ourselves maybe all day and nancy isn't as inclined in that direction as i am and so i've had to kind of kind of adjust the idea that really i shouldn't put my thing

on nancy and that we should always have something over every night and so i think in some ways i've just compromised and modified my own desires i understand if there's any one major thing where or area where at times i wish things were a little bit different it would probably be that if you could make her over a little you'd make her into someone a little bit more socially inclined i don't i don't even know if i'd do that you know in its own way it's nice having someone who you know if i if nancy

was just like me we'd probably um we'd probably get sick of having people over actually you know we might just be two people who would over overdo a good thing so i don't even know if i'd i'd make her over but at times i think there's little moments of stress or disappointment that i i might wish geez i'd like to really do something with someone this weekend or have someone over today and the answer's not really too turned on by a time if we have someone over nancy we'll be very accepting of it but it'll

be kind of just response response to my desires at the time and for you what are some of the uh aside from the one you mentioned what are some of the uh dissatisfactions of these i think especially at first and this too has you know been working itself away but i still feel it at times that our values kind of differed especially when he first met that john thought he's he's very hedonistic and and he always thought really nice not to work and be rich and and just you know be able to do what you

wanted all day and i still have more of a kind of puritan work ethic you know not where i really want to work hard i'm i'm all with you should be able to do whatever you want to do but if i were given the choice of doing whatever i wanted to do i would feel like i really wanted to work at something you know maybe not a 40-hour day job work at something i like and i think i would structure my time a lot more in that and that bothers me more at first but you

know i'm gradually coming to see his ways and but i still feel like there's a lot more that i wanted to do and that maybe if john didn't didn't really try he would just turn into kind of a lazy bum you know that that you know not said that i want him to to work he doesn't want to but i want him to be doing something while he isn't working besides just flying around and you know i think maybe he could do that he probably won't but possibly that could happen and sometimes worries me uh

what do you have to say about that yeah i think there's any likelihood of you becoming a lazy gun um no i don't think so you know at times i think overall nancy can at this point in time at least can really get into more things with more enthusiasm than i can but i i think nancy and nancy at times thought would realize that there are some things i really get interested in my time we focus on one thing at a time and when i get into it i i usually zip into it with with

a lot of enthusiasm you see as much as your rhythms being different i mean that if you get focused on something bingo that's that's it yeah but then there might be a period and you're not focusing very much at the moment yeah i i think i tend to come and go a lot like that yeah i should know that you know and i do rationally when i sit down and think about it because i know there's a lot of things stars come out with new ideas and let's do this must do that but it's just

sometimes you know when i hear them tell people to say well what do you want to do you know and everybody else answers well i have all these you know i want to do this and that and he's oh nothing i just just want to you know be rich and and have fun and all this and it kind of makes my heart give a beat you know but then i think about it do you know what i mean again that's a case where your your mind says okay that's the that's what he likes but puts

your heart sort of uh you say you share some things are you also fairly supportive toward each other in what you do yeah i myself feel very strongly that we are um i in my own perception without nancy i wouldn't i wouldn't be the same person i am today i i find that nancy is is just an integral part of a lot of things that i i do know and that i i just somehow wouldn't really be doing if i didn't have her there somehow it's not even an advert encouragement but it's it just hurt

her um implicit support of of my ideas even if she isn't even interested in them you know like the business ideas are something i might think of just really gives me a lot of encouragement to go ahead and try and do it and i really like that about our relationship you know a certain backing really even though that may not be a tremendous amount of interest yeah i feel like sometimes i'm really dragging my feet especially on your business benches he often comes up with you know the way to make a quick million and i

i often feel like i'm saying to him you know no it's not going to work you know i'm putting out a lot of pessimism but probably on the whole at least i still say well if that's really what you want to do go ahead and now come along you know unwillingly but you're sort of a balanced feeling effect do you feel support from him and what you're doing i i think usually um sometimes i feel like you could show a little more enthusiasm but that's probably how you feel when you know i i show pessimism

about your business senses um you know and i don't think it's it's something that ever starts a fight or anything but sometimes i just feel a little bit bit hurt that you know if i said something like oh listen i'm gonna go to africa and study zebras or something and just be wow that's a really great idea something like that it's not it's really one of those problems that isn't a very practical one it doesn't come up that often i don't usually feel hurt about it hypothetical sounds as though your differences are not very grief

and you do have differences what what do you how would you describe the way you fight or work through them or whatever does happen in your case i i feel we do it very very logically at least i try and be very logical and rational on my part you know and john says too i think i get more outwardly emotional i cry very easily anything um john in the tenth day very very cool i don't i'm not sure quite get that you're very logical but in such situations you you cry very easily yeah i i'm

being logical for my tear as well sometimes when you're proud of the logic rather than of the tears yeah i think i am i i'd like to think of myself as as a cool person and not and i usually i think i am not very emotional and i i pride myself on that you know maybe just because i come from kind of a scientific engineering type family you know it's all very rational but so so that for you being rational is something you really value a good deal and your tears sort of well yeah it's

not that i'm ashamed that i'm around john or anything but or embarrassed by them but it makes it very hard to talk so practically it's problem and he never cries so you know why should i leave one cry you share that picture of her and what's what's your reaction to how you how you work things out um well nancy does crying it's not it's not always i don't think that it's deeply emotional for her but she cries easily i in some ways you know on one hand i i guess i'm not sure that i like

hearing the the rational thing all way over the emotionals the way it kind of sounds on the other hand i think we've both um been involved in situations where we weren't sure really how we felt and and the whole thing was kind of threatening you know the motions are kind of mixed and and instead of stopping we we kind of let rationality lead inside well you know we can probably try and handle it and if it doesn't work out all right we'll just say well it didn't work out and we'll do it again and i

think overall it's been an asset more than a hindrance to be willing to kind of venture forward even when your emotions are a little bit mixed up or maybe even say something a little bit different from from what you're thinking so so both of you really put rationality above what a little above what you what you're actually feeling is that am i getting that picture right yeah settling of disputes i think that would be the important thing is you know how you rationally think of it you know like even if i feel jealous i say

well you know we both know that it's right that you do this does it really get rid of the jealousy i think it helps i i really do um you know maybe it's partly that i i'm proud of of being able to control my emotions somewhat so that i can i can work at it anyhow what were you gonna say dennis well i was gonna say i'm not as good at letting rationality lead me all the time and i think that's sometimes where i don't give her as much freedom as she gives me so i

i think i want him like i i really feel that it's somehow coming in my direction it's a real good good attribute that nancy is is rational and let's rationality lead but i think i'm more of on a on a balancing post where at times i'll i'll say hey i don't i don't feel good about this so i wish we wouldn't do it and other times i'll i'll um let rationality leader what i see is rationality or i'll be willing to to say all right you know push we'll push the scale into this direction take

the step even though i don't really feel that way that's what you do sometimes you think that you've never really been in a in a serious crisis i gather between you or would you say you have i don't think um there's ever been a you know too serious a problem but i feel sometimes i can think of one occasion particular when we went on a trip with some friends and i was just annoying john all day you know not perfectly but just kind of feeling crabby on my part and at the end of the day

he came out you know i knew he was mad at me he started acting kind of cool and then we finally got a chance to talk about it he said listen i want to go away for a week and not see you and i just really felt terrible and that was something i think that's the biggest at least that's the worst emotional thing i i ever felt i don't know if that was ever the most dramatic fight but it was the worst i ever felt because it's it's kind of like having the rug pulled out

and it sounds as though in that case both your crabbiness during the day and your feeling of oh wow this is terrible that evening neither of those sound particularly logical no i suppose not um now there are more emotional reactions i found it very interesting to talk to nancy and john i'm sorry that our time ran out without my having a chance to really bid them farewell uh they certainly are a very modern young couple in many ways i think here's a partnership of this lasted two and a half years but they've only only been

married for six months of that that period uh the marriage was upsetting only to john he found it bumpier as he said to meet the royal expectations of being a husband and society expected things having as a husband that they hadn't expected before i was interested in this phrase that up to the time of their marriage he felt they were choosing each other every day um and after marriage the choice was made which evidently bothered him some one thing that certainly stood out was the fact that nancy gives john an astonishing amount of freedom to

have his own dates to have affairs and yet in some ways she feels confirmed because after each of his uh dates and so on he returns to her making her feel that after all the alternatives he still chooses her as the person that he wants to be with um however we can't overlook the fact that she is hurt and jealous at times like that even though her reason and her logic tell her that she shouldn't be that's perfectly all right john who runs a little bit more on his feelings can't give her as much can't

give her as much freedom as she gives him logic doesn't rule in his world and uh he constrains her in many more ways than she constrains him i think that the degree of freedom that he has is especially indicated by the fact that he's sometimes scared of all the freedom that he gives her he wonders is this is it really okay to do things like this or should i abide by a more conventional role but then she tells him that's that's all right they seem to be a compatible young couple sharing an increasing number of

interests and really appreciating each other he likes her as kind of a balanced wheel and to some extent i think that's reciprocated it's kind of a surprising reversal that in this case nancy is the one who has the work ethic she believes you should really be putting in your time usefully and that he's the hedonist and she says maybe he could even become a lazy bum which troubles her somewhat but i'd like to get to the main concern that i felt about this young couple and that is nancy's tendency to try to control and deny

her feelings uh here's a young woman who weeps easily i think you could tell from her appearance she's she's an emotional person she gets hurt and jealous she feels it was the worst day in her life when john said then after she'd been kind of irritable all day that he guessed he would leave her for a week and yet she tries to hide all this by putting reason and logic ahead of her [Music] feelings and emotions she's a strong one for rational thinking logic is her way for solving problems and she feels that all their

difficulties can be resolved if they can be logical and reasonable about it it even applies to the freedom that she gives to john she thinks in her mind that that's the way it should be she should give him complete freedom so she does uh and then she tries to suppress the hurt that she feels when he for example takes a girl out for three hours when really he could have taken her out for two of those three hours she wasn't busy all that time in my judgment and i'm sure my bias showed through in the

interview someday these denied feelings in her are going to cause difficulty in this partnership they'll catch up with her i don't know exactly how they'll come out i don't have any idea about that but when when they do catch up with her that's not going to be a very happy time for her or for him or for their relationship um there's one concluding statement that i would make they said that they supported each other in their occupations and seem to feel they were really supportive after the close of the interview i learned what their occupations

were and i have their permission to tell you what they what they do john in spite of his perhaps rather lazy inclinations teaches business and is involved in business affairs she's a part-time student which doesn't seem surprising and a girl who comes from a scientific and engineering family but she does her share to support the family and to pay for her education by putting in part-time as a topless go-go dancer uh i don't know whether that uh gives you a jolt but it gave me somewhat of a jolt to uh to learn that and the

interesting thing is that that's with her husband's approval because it's a far more lucrative occupation than any other job she could she could get so perhaps that indicates more than anything that i could say that you you can't stereotype people they are unique beyond their wildest imagination and each couple finds its own way of endeavoring to cope with life sometimes successfully sometimes not so successfully and as i say i think that this couple though they have many things going for them also have this one element that may cause them real difficulty in the future unless

she's able to recognize that her feelings are just as important as her ideas and that rationality is not the answer to all problems and she's got to enter into the relationship as a whole person accepting both her feelings and her reasoning [Music] so [Music] so [Music] you