so Shane you have sparked quite a number of headlines in recent days uh over a very simple social media post that you put up about discernment and Tor Swift and her new album what led you in the first place to post about this tor Swift album yeah yeah great question Billy and and love having this conversation with you and uh um yeah you know at the end of the day it's like I want to say this from beginning you know because I'm not an anti- tailor guy I think I've been kind of labeled that the
last couple days I'm not the anti- tailor guy I'm the pro gospel guy you know and so I think anything that I know uh is a largely affecting parents or Christians or people in the church um that seems to to really kind of um be anti-gospel I think we lovingly call it out and so you know all I did was pull out some lyrics of her new album um and just said hey here's some things that seem concerning and as Christians and parents maybe here some things that we need uh to consider and if you
followed Taylor for a while you know I even put this in the post buity I'm definitely not the no secular music at any time guy you know um I'm not the one that wants to call out every single movie or TV show or artist but if you see this journey of Taylor over time her music has become more and more explicit and has really for a like of term taken a darker turn and I think there's a lot of especially girls between the age of 13 and 35 in the church that is engaging with it
on large scale and now even moms introducing their young daughters to Taylor and so I think we just need to be very aware and very careful of what we're exposing our kids to and how we're even engaging with things and being entertained by things that are really anti- what we say we believe no I think that's a really good point and it is unfortunate to see that change in in her music right you know and and some people will say well she's an adult she's growing up but the reality is you if you went to
any of the movie theaters when you know the concert was out in the theaters it's very evident that a lot of young kids and a lot of you know inside and outside of the church are going to watch teller either in person or they were going to the theater because they're interested in the music so we know there's a young audience there so we we kind of hinted at some of the reaction obviously I saw the Daily Mail there have been a number of outlets who have covered this what has the reaction been to your
post from your perspective and were you surprised by that reaction yeah I would say Billy not a lot of in the middle one extreme or the other you know of like hey man we agree with you uh man I I've received so many text messages from pastors Collegiate leaders youth pastors um campus ministers at colleges and private schools they go hey your post stirred up a lot of conversations and open doors for conversations things that we've been concerned about ourselves but maybe haven't shared but this opened the door for us to share so there's been
I would say overwhelming support and agreement but there's also been some um that have been really aggressive um and then some that um I wouldn't even say aggressive but concerning and here's what I mean by concerning I've received a lot of DMS from young people and Billy they opened with this I am a Swifty and then we down in the message I am also a Christian which I think is very telling that we have our identities out of order you know that um Jesus is the one who died for you Jesus is the one who
forgives Jesus is the one who gives eternal life Jesus is the one that gives us hope and encouragement in those Dark Nights of the Soul we're called to be ambassadors for Christ not an ambassador for celebrity so if you identify as a Swifty before you identify as a Christian I think there's something fundamentally wrong there too and and hopefully some eyes are being open to that yeah you know it's it's very interesting because a lot of the Dynamics that we have in culture right now and and you know this better than anyone dealing in evangelism
and seeing a lot of young people and families you know when it comes to Tor Swift or or anything it could be a TV show a movement it becomes like a religion for people they embrace it and I don't know if that's a social media issue also at the same time of us sort of pulling away from God as a culture that we have the we're trying to fill this void with something else but that is that is really telling wh why do you think why do you think we're seeing more of this I mean
it's always existed but it does feel and maybe you'll disagree but it does feel like we have sort of a precipice of people obsessing over other people and other movements and things yeah and you're right and and I think it's real easy to point out you know maybe Taylor Swift right now but it goes anyway uh guys can be just as guilty with their sports teams or their athletes and and I think it is part of that God shaped hole in all of our soul you know that we're born with and but even when you
are bought with the blood of Jesus and you have the Holy Spirit of God I think our flesh always wants to run back to that that there's this drive to fill that void with other things other people and I always say this and I believe it you'll always feel like something's missing as long as someone is missing and that is Jesus um and you see it a lot of times I mean uh and I'll just be honest Billy I'll just say this here in recent years I can say this um especially in the American church
if I go hey here's what the Bible says about sexuality here's what the Bible says about marriage here's what the Bible says about being pro-life here's what the Bible says about God determining sex and gender you'll get some hardy amens people are emboldened by that but if you start talking about here's what the Bible says about idol worship and how we worship idols and celebrities and pop singers and sports and travel ball then people are like hey wait a minute they go from being emboldened to offended really quickly and I think we can all be
guilty of that when you start shoving over Idols typically those who scream the most or run to pick up that Idol and defend that Idol is typically those um who that's hit you know yeah no absolutely and I I love the point you made about sports there's there's a lot of things that can feel it's not just ters Swift it could be anything but I want to go back to your initial post because you wrote the first thing you wrote in that post on social was lyrics matter and that's how we sort of started this
conversation what were some because people might be wondering they maybe haven't listened to it yet or they want to understand what were some of the lyrics or the types of lyrics that actually had you concerned after you after you heard the album yeah I think the very intentionality of using gospel elements very clear Christian Gospel elements and then making that either about yourself like hey I'll die for your sins uh that only Christ can do that um I think about you know even some of the and and I know some of the Defenders are like
hey that's just metaphors that's just metaphors but those are very clear and intentional metaphors the rolling the way of the stone the the dying of sins um also I think it's a uh it was a very clear uh portrayal of all churches all Christians are very judgmental you know uh hey you're going to clutch your pearls but you're trying to keep me in the gray space you're trying to keep me this way um and so I think it was very clear gospel elements that you were making about yourself and injecting yourself in almost as a
messiah figure and then also just the the continual judgmental attitude against those who you say are judgmental right and so it's it's our it's ironic people go oh there's a lot of church there and she feels like Christians have judged her but really in the music it's her judging Those whom people are trying to say you're judging her you know was a very judgmental stance towards the church all Christians and that Christians aren't really looking to help her uh you know um they're looking to keep her in a in a sense uh submissive they're looking
to keep her uh under you know uh some kind of heavy oppression uh and to keep her in that gray space and so it just felt very aggressive towards Christianity and felt very anti-gospel as you're trying to interject those metaphors on yourself that are very clearly for the gospel yeah I mean look there's very real Church hurt that exists and people who are impacted by it and then there's another category of people who claim Church hurt when they just don't like what scripture says or what they're being told you know there are different things going
on sometimes and I think it's important we discern between those things and understand them um you know you know you've said a couple things about music and obviously you're a parent I'm a parent when you have young kids you know it's really tough with music and with entertainment in general you'll have a lot of people out there as you were saying who will say no secular content whatsoever no secular music whatsoever you know what is your what is your guidance and I know this is a tough question but your guidance for parents and how to
handle this stuff in general not just teller Swift but you're in the church you're trying to keep your kids you know in the gospel how do you do that when it comes to this content yeah I think open dialogue is the key um I think sometimes I'll be honest I think sometimes social media social media influencers celebrities don't want parents having conversations with their kids because they want to direct that conversation and so I want to say hey be engaged with your kids know what they're watching know what they're listening to whatever the conviction of
your home is do that if your conviction of the home is hey we only listen to Christian music we only watch Pure flicks we only watch Christian films and Christian movies then hey God bless you do that but if you're a parent um that is a you know saying okay we listen to all forms of Music we watch certain shows or certain movies I think when things are popping up that are anti- what you believe as a family or are infringing on the core values of your family you got to have good conversations and I
think those good conversations can help prepare your kids to live on mission to navigate this world because here's the deal is that your kids may be young now but they're going to grow up and become adults and so we have to prepare that for them right we we can keep them you know and you know we can kind of shelter them in for a la better term we can keep them in this bubble but eventually they have to go out in the world real world so I think you can use some of these things to
go here's what the world believes here's what the world says is valuable here's what the world says is wisdom but here's actually what the Bible says it's wisdom here's what the Bible says about living this out here's how to navigate this culture with the truth of God's word and who Christ is and so I think you can use some of those things to go okay is this harmful for my kids if so do need to protect our kids from that or is this educating for my kids to go hey here's what some people believe by
how what they sing what they portray in art what they portray in music and media and social media and movies and shows now here's what we believe and here's how to show the love of the gospel and and be salt and light in this dark world so final question for you I love what you just said there I think that's incredibly important taking these things as as lessons but final question for you you know a lot of times Christians and and by the way you have not done this I know some of the media headlines
have painted you out to be outraged over this which you are not you have very clearly expressed where you are but a lot of times we can get very frustrated and outrage when we start to see entertainment turn a certain way or when we see somebody like Tor Swift maybe make a turn that's unfortunate or that is is a little frustrating what's your advice when it comes to praying maybe for people like tyor Swift praying for people even Christians in the industry in the entertainment industry who you know you hear that so and so became
a Christian a lot of times we don't I I think we don't maybe pray for them and we should so I'd love to just get your take on on that yeah that's funny yeah you know of course some of it's just clickbait you know there's been some media Outlets that go outraged Christian leader Shane PR or you know enraged or or he calls it Blasphemous you know that's all good clickbait what's been fun is I've seen some Christian leaders and friends of mine Shar is like if you know Shane he's the most laidback guy it's
not outrage you know and so um but yeah I think that's true I think one thing we got to constantly remember is Billy I didn't grow up in the church so I didn't become a Christian till I was 21 so that means I I remember vividly of what it was like to live without Jesus um and it's much better with Jesus and so I think one thing as Believers is don't forget what it was like for us to be lost don't forget that we were sinners in need of a savior um and so I think
if we're not careful it can be a us verse them mentality and it's not I think one thing we got to be reminded of is unbelievers are not our enemy they're our mission filled and so yeah pray uh a mentor of mine used to say this Billy and I loved it we should never talk to people about God until we talk to God about people meaning everything starts with prayer like pray yeah pray that God would soften their heart pray that God would open their eyes pray that people would have opportunities to share the gospel
with them pray that people would be bold and confident to walk through those doors of opportunity to share the gospel and that happens and so I would say yeah pray be Salt and Light live differently and then when God allows open our mouths and share the gospel and I always encourage Christians with that sometimes um we're we're experts on celebrity gossip and we're novices when it comes to the word of God so know the word of God open our mouth share the gospel and um and I think sometimes we kind of use the old St
Francis of Ace quote as an excuse not to open our mouths you know and we all know that St Francis of Ace quote where he says hey go out and preach the gospel and if necessary use words well Paul says in Romans 10 we must use words we got to open our mouth a friend of mine said it like this to say go preach the gospel and necessary use words that's like saying go feed the hungry and if necessary use food you know we gotta use words we gotta open our mouth and I understand yes
let our life match our message but we also need to have a message where we use words to point people to Jesus and lovingly share the gospel so I would say yes I think number one don't have that mentality it's US versus them no no no unbelievers are not our enemies they're are mission filled pray for them share the gospel live differently be Salt and Light yeah well that was that's an incredible way to end that discussion Shane I appreciate you coming on talking about this and thanks for your post it started quite a bit
of conversation appreciate you I appreciate you my friend
