one of the main criticisms leveled against your movement is that it's anti-semitic Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu himself has said the founders of the BDS movement want to see the end of the Jewish State well first look who's talking um Israel's leaders are nourishing anti-Semitism like never before they're in bed with the fascists of the world [Music] I'm Fatima buto and this is reframe where we seek new conversations and perspectives in this series we'll be discussing one of the biggest issues of our time the fate of Palestine and its people and what the war in
Gaza has revealed about the nature of Israel's occupation my guest this week is one of the most prominent Palestinian human rights Defenders Omar barut he is the co-founder of BDS the boycott divestment and sanctions campaign a Palestinian movement inspired by the South African anti-apartheid struggle successive Israeli governments have tried to delegitimize BDS subjecting Omar to threats and intimidation in 2017 Omar received the Gandhi peace award for his work Omar thank you so much for joining us today thank you you've been on the Forefront of the fight to defend human rights in Palestine for decades can
you tell us what is BDS and what is the philosophy that animates it uh BDS was launched by the absolute majority of Palestinian Society in 2005 calling for the basic rights without which Palestinians cannot exercise self-determination ending the occupation ending Israel's regime of racial segregation which meets the UN definition of apartheid and the right of refugees to return by focusing on those three rights BDS addresses the basic rights stipulated under international law the most important point about BDS is that it connects the Palestinian Liberation struggle with ending complicity internationally which means we cannot end the
occupation and the paride and and have our refugees return and receive reparations without ending the complicity of State corporations and institutions so in a nutshell the theory of change of the BDS movement is from the Grassroots to the grass stops in order to affect policy change we need to build people power which has many many forms uh intersectional coalitions uh Media power um strategic litigation power uh the ability to peacefully disrupt the powers that be and so on and so forth and it's most important to say that it is is an anti-racist movement that categorically
opposes all forms of racism but even if we're talking about a movement that connects Palestinians with the rest of the world in this fight to end complicity is people's power enough to take Israel off its current path well Israel derives most of its power as we're seeing during this ongoing genocide from being armed funded and shielded from accountability by the United States the UK Germany the EU and so on without those links of complicity Israel cannot maintain its entire system of Oppression so we think yes we can if we cut those links of complicity that
can help the Palestinian people resist more effectively this system of Oppression and eventually dismantle it we've seen it in South Africa this is not something completely hypothetical that has never been tested peoples across the world have been able to defeat extremely powerful enemies from India against the British colonialism Algeria against French colonialism and South Africa against apartheid and it took a lot of international solidarity it wasn't just the internal resistance external solidarity is also very integral to this resistance you have said in the past that the way in which Israel rolls out it its own
apartheid is far more sophisticated than what happened in South Africa in in what way is it more sophisticated well it's a partti 2.0 if you will it's the the newer version because Israel has learned a lot from the South African system of apartheid which in turn learned a lot from the US system of apartheid against indigenous and against black Americans so Israel knows that unlike South Africa it's not an inherently very powerful country that the West needs per se of course it serves Imperial powers and so on but in order for Israel to continue its
system of Oppression it has to appear as if it were Democratic liberal so it cannot afford to have Petty apartheid preventing Palestinian citizens and Jewish citizens from sharing um the same Hospital Wards although we're getting much closer to that but aparte is not about sharing tables or Hospital WS apar is a crime defined in international law as a system of racial Domination by one racial group against another that deprives them of basic rights based on their identity and institutionalizes this racial segregation and discrimination and Israel perfectly fits that Paradigm as defined in international law if
you're Jewish Israeli you're entitled to the entire set of Rights if you're not Jewish if you're indigenous Palestinian Christian Muslim or otherwise you're not entitled to the same set of Rights so Israel is not a state of its citizens it's a state of the Jewish people worldwide it doesn't give its citizens who are not Jewish the same rights by law not just by policy Naomi kleene who's a famous Canadian author and activist has called BDS a people's foreign policy and says it deserves to be seen as such I wanted to ask you how Jewish voices
are represented in your movement today in North America in particular Jewish support for BDS has always been disproportionately high during during the last few years it has grown exponentially and during the genocide it has grown even further so everyone has seen those Jewish peaceful disruptions of Congress and Statue of Liberty and the Grand Central Station extremely inspiring they understand that there is nothing Jewish about Israel's occupation settler colonialism ethnic cleansing apartheid or genocide and therefore there's nothing anti-jewish in supporting BDS to dismantle those systems those structures of Oppression and those crimes and we are very
proud of this Jewish support for BDS uh and it helps a lot to counter all the myths about the movement that are trying to silence Palestinian advocacy it's it's perhaps not that well known Omar that nonviolent resistance in Palestine goes back really a century and that Palestinian Civil Society has been active since the time of the British mandate can you speak to us briefly about that history of nonviolence resistance and also where you place BDS within that story indeed boycotts in particular go back at least a century in Palestinian history in in fighting British colonialism
and then Zionist settler colonialism so boycotts have always been used we did not learn boycots from Gandhi or Martin Luther King or from South Africa as inspiring as those examples have been in the BDS movement for example but we've learned it mainly from our own history from our own Roots our heritage of of struggle the most important point to remember is that there's a diversity of resistance forms in Palestine and everywhere else you don't face colonialism or settler colonialism or any system of Oppression with one form of resistance simply because people are different there's diversity
among people if you're a student or an artist or a child I do sometimes workshops in schools in ramala or in Naas and kids asked me we really love this idea of BDS can we do it I said yes one parent once told me what did you do to our children yesterday in your I said what happened he said my daughter formed a checkpoint in the house when my wife and I came from the supermarket she checked every item to make sure none of the products were boycott and I said I'm so proud of your
daughter what are some of the the wins that you're most proud of recently it's hard to speak about successes in the midst of ongoing genocide but we must we must because it is where we see the Hope in this unspeakable darkness of ongoing horror every single day a new Massacre a new school a new atrocity I look at Indonesia or Malaysia or or or Pakistan or South Africa or Chile or Colombia or the us or or the UK and and you see hope everywhere a movement is Growing Power Grassroots power is growing like never before
we are successfully challenging powers that be the Norwegian Sovereign fund the absolute largest in the world recently divested its $500 million worth of Israel bonds under pressure from the largest Trade union in Norway which is a BDS supporter but even bigger than that Intel the chip maker cancelled a project of investing 25 billion with a B $25 billion near Tel Aviv 15 miles from Gaza basically they were planning a huge Factory and several factors led to that including BDS pressure on on shareholders does it make sense to invest in a war zone where your entire
investment may disappear isn't this Reckless isn't this ideological and indeed that was much more effective than our ethical and legal arguments in that case so there are many other cases look at what's happening with artists with academics with student encampments trade unions so all over the place I think think the whole Young Generation from Korea to the US from Sweden to South Africa they have centered Palestine as part of their identity as a generation that wants a different world that is not ruled by extremely horrible corporations and militaristic companies and financial institutions that that suck
your blood they want a different world but at the same time as as you're having this impact it's also true that BDS has come under increased scrutiny and attack and one of the main criticisms leveled against your movement is that it's anti-semitic Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu himself has said the founders of the BDS movement want to see the end of the Jewish State their classical anti-semites in modern Garb how do you respond to that well first look who's talking um Israel's leaders are nourishing anti-Semitism like never before they're in bed with the fascists of
the world in Europe in the US their best friends from crazy Christian Zionist zealots in the US they're anti-semitic but they love Israel this is the new formula we will whitewash your anti-Semitism if you love Israel if you support Israel so that's one point the second point is that as I said earlier BDS targets Israel's regime of Oppression it does not Target an identity as such what is Jewish about that I mean how is that Jewish saying it is is anti-Semitic saying that attacking Israel attacking Zionism is anti-Semitic is an anti-semitic statement because it equates
Israel on the one hand and Zionism with all Jews as if Jews have no diversity as if they're a monolith and finally if Israel equals all Jews then this Liv streamed genocide we're seeing in Gaza against 2.3 million Palestinians is a Jewish genocide how more anti-semitic can it get of course it's not a genocide there an Israeli policy far-right fascist government in Israel it has nothing to do with jewishness or Judaism and what do you say to the the other criticism which is that boycotts even well-meaning boycotts will not damage the large corporate owner of
a company but actually will hurt the more vulnerable person who they intend to help the workers in this case factually this is false uh in our long history of BDS almost two decades we've had massive support from trade unions is it because they're acting against their class interest no they understand that they have some very evil CEOs and board members that want profit above everything else and in many cases they help us to boycott their company to force their company to abandon illegal projects in Israel it happened with violia the French conglomerate I personally met
with three trade unions of violia in bilbow and the next day they plastered all the buses violia buses boycott violia and then seven years later violia was forced to abandon Israel after losing over2 billion worth of contracts so shareholders start doing this fight against the CEOs and them board after they see the price being paid I mean this brings me to another um important point it's it's very obvious that Israeli governments feel threatened by BDS they have campaigned across the West to enact laws officially Banning BDS and in the US today correct me if I'm
wrong here but 293 anti-bds bills have been introduced effective in 38 states can you tell us about those laws and do they widen the net from BDS to other movements in fact in many US state legislatures anti-bds legislation has been used to suppress the right of blacks to vote women's Reproductive Rights fossil Fuel campaigners and so on and so forth it's an absolute template we've been saying that for many many years don't ignore what they're doing against BDS because they're they're violating the First Amendment of the US Constitution the free speech amendment if they get
away with this who's next most Progressive movements in the US ignored that we told them have you learned anything from mcarthism they claim they're going after the Communists but they never stop it's any dissenting voice then most Progressive now saw that the anti-bds legislation is only a Gateway it's only a template to be used for other repressions and other suppression of freedoms and and is this something that you can point to in in states that that started with BDS and then just rolled over other rights just look at Texas Texas would be an example I
mean Row versus Wade was reversed years after they passed all these anti-bds legislation across state legislatures and it was no coincidence they built up that it's okay to suspend the freedom of expression on one thing then you can suspend it on something else if you have the power but some places maybe not States but certainly some cities like Portland are now turning that tide back are they not they're divesting from companies doing business with Israel do you do you have faith that this will continue to grow this is very important in fact and and we
hope this catches on in the UK and elsewhere because as I said earlier from the Grassroots to the grass stops there's a whole scale in between you don't jump from influencing student movements and academics and artists and and trade unions to affecting Congress in the US for example you need to go step by step so we have to influence cities more more Progressive cities building very large intersectional coalitions because we've managed to convince the entire Progressive Movement that the US is so militarized and it's not just against us it's against everyone look what's happening with
Health Services education jobs and so on so all those cities that passed anti-military military investment laws and and and policies were due to very large coalitions pushing not just the Palestine advocacy movement so the fossil fuel uh the climate Justice movement LGBT movement uh Jewish progressives and many many others I want to turn to you for a moment you've faced ongoing intimidation by successive Israeli governments um they've attempted to revoke your Israeli residency you faced delays in the renewal of your travel documents and you've been called personally a threat to the state of Israel how
does this impact you um I feel very awkward talking about this in the midst of genocide honestly because it it pales but it's still trying to silence a voice that is important in this time isn't it it is clearly they're not succeeding so I mean uh uh I mean I'm louder than ever uh uh so it's it's not working okay yes they've tried everything I mean the whole point they try to get to you to to make you feel that you know what I'm giving up it's not worth it I want to live my life
you know I I I will do things for Palestine but you know I can't do this anymore that's what they try but clearly that's not working with me because my response to every phase of intimidation is do more you will never succeed to deter me I will not stop until the system of Oppression is dismantled entirely Omar we're going to turn to we're going to turn to the to the audience now yes my name is Jonathan rosenhead I'm one of the Jews who supports BDS as a movement for Liberation can we build on the public
outrage at Israel's brutal assault in Gaza to Turbo chars the BDS and sanctions movement and if so how do we build on this outrage thanks Jonathan the most important thing is to recognize that it is happening can we accelerate it I guess is the question absolutely I think the student movement those encampments and this boldness and courage in in fighting the system the complicit universities and their Investments uh put the B and the D and BDS on the map much more than before so today from Pension funds to even states are are taking what we
are calling for much more seriously just in November of 2024 we've seen more than 52 States endorse a military Embargo of Israel in 2023 that would have been impossible to even imagine that we will get dozens of States supporting the military embargo so it is happening but because the genocide is so horrific and it's Liv streamed it's very easy to despair that we're not moving fast enough of course we're not moving fast enough but that's as fast as we can do in order to build a sustainable movement change is happening it's happening everywhere but it
will take more time indeed next question um we've got gentlemen over there how far do you think the western states are going to go in dismantling their own sort of ostensibly liberal democratic systems uh in the West in order to protect Israel and to protect the genocide and what can we do to stand against that and to sort of uh resist it suppression of free speech on Palestine repression of peaceful demonstrations and peaceful protests and peaceful disruptions will not stop with Palestine I think in the UK more and more groups are realizing this for example
uh when the former Government tried to pass conservatives tried to pass an anti-bds legislation that was so Draconian so mccarthyite so repressive the Palestine solidarity campaign managed to form a very large very broad uh Coalition for the first time ever to address this because everyone from amnesty to every other civil rights groups recognized that unless we stop this they're coming for us but the main point is this what what you said which is those powers that be those those Western Elites those colonial states are really dismantling liberal democracy as we know it to defend their
favorite settler Colony Israel and and this is this is uh this should scare every liberal not just every Progressive or leftist every liberal should really be worried your Civic rights that you take for granted are disappearing before your eyes you can stop it before it goes away um we've got a question in the front what are the benefit that you see for building uh International solidarity um linking the Palestinian solidarity movement for example with other Global solidarity campaigns uh Global struggles against colonialism and extractivism more generally thank you thank you uh thanks for this the
a very recent example uh just October 2024 there was a week of action against Chevron the the giant Oil Company oil and gas uh company in the US because it is very complicit in extracting Israeli claimed gas of in the Mediterranean so it's a very important asset for powering Israel's genocide and aparte regime so to speak but it's also destroying U indigenous lands in Ecuador uh so we connected the struggles very well and and climate Justice activists did an an incredible job in supporting this campaign it is very important that every sector organizes in in
their sector so academics and students and unions in universities can do a lot of work in universities but what are filmmakers and writers and and and feminists and LGBT activists and climate you know there's so many groups that we work with and everyone can be active in their own sector so all those Powers coming together if you have a common strategy as we do the BDS movement has a one Global common strategy with very different tactics that are context sensitive everywhere oh my I just want to end with one last question you've said that BDS
doesn't follow a linear path to progress and that we lose some battles but we win most so the general direction is going up with a new US president does this still hold true I think when fascism loses its masks it might prompt better Progressive action we've seen in the first Trump at Administration those four years how black lives matter went onto the world stage to become a movement that has inspired tens and hundreds of millions worldwide that was during the Trump era um I think fascists with masks can be very dangerous because they commit the
crime while maintaining this liberal facade like the labor government in this country I mean the austerity and so on of course it's better than the conservatives but that doesn't say say much so we have to aim for more but I think yes when when far-right parties lose their mask and go on this massive repression against everyone that prompts everyone who is sitting on their bottom and not doing enough to get up and start moving and I think that gives us hope that we will see especially given the ongoing genocide we will see new energies from
everywhere that have been fence sitting for so long getting off their neutral position and and doing something for not just for Palestinians for the sake of humanity thank you Omar barti for speaking with us today and thank you to all of you who've joined us in the audience this evening [Music]
