awesome yeah so thank you for uh seeing me I'm glad uh Bishop uh I'm glad Bishop oenos gave me the the idea to ask you a few questions about all this history that's been been talking about can you tell us about uh how did you become Orthodox oh that's a long story doesn't really relate to the question to the questions but uh before I joined the monastery here that's more than 50 years ago no to the Russian Church abroad in England uh that was where I was before I came to the monastery how I got
there yeah not really relevant so you've been in Greece this since since then your almost your whole life 51 years so you've been Greece longer than England yes I'm 75 now so oh wow that's good so you've been in Greece pretty much your whole life or your whole Orthodox life right yeah so when were you uh how long have you been a bishop in the Church of the genuine Orthodox Church of Greece 3 one years 20 21 31 31 so you have a lot of information I'd imagine about uh the communion with rokor back in
in the day yeah I was in the middle of it all so so discussions um what brought about that do you remember exactly back then what brought about uh uh the holy the senate in resistance coming into communion with rore uh well we should begin a little earlier than that okay with 1969 uhhuh um Metropolitan kyanos was and archimandrite uh visited the Russian Church abroad was representative arop and from Metropolitan feret he received the document of they recognized the ordinations that been performed by Arch Bishop Lei and Bishop Sim Bishop theil several years earlier oh
what nine years earlier finally recognized and also gave him the holy Miron to take back to Greece to give to Arch Bishop after centives which he did so this was this was the beginning of and from that time he had a very special re mag confession and for him as a person and it's witness for Orthodoxy this is where we should begin in relationship I was this was long before I was in the monaster I joined the monastery 1973 MH uh in 1973 I think it was that same year what was the next year 1974
R Bishop sendas accepted the clergyman of the Russian Church abroad without any without any letters of um canonical Mission and made him a bishop this is Bishop Gabriel of Portugal just a moment m b girl of Portugal and that very justifiably caused the Russian Church abroad to sever lurgical relationships with with us with the church under Arch Bishop of candius it was an extreme we didn't know anything about it until after the fact unfortunately we would have taken measures to prevent it AR Bishop gendus uh was a good person in many ways but he had
absolutely no gifts of administration and he caused the church to inrease to fall apart literally and this is one of bigger eras with the Russian Church abroad this caused us of course a great deal of unhappiness because we had Bishop l in particular used to come to Greece every summer uh he was always stay in our Monastery was a very good friend mhm amongst from jordanville come and go and we vised America so it was a very good relationship was broken apart in this way so uh Metropolitan became was ordained Bishop [Music] 1979 uh and
one of his First Act to try men things with the Russian Church abroad he went to in New York together with me and Metropolitan kalistos a blessed memory we met Metropolitan feret we talked with him we talked with the sinate also um his father George Graber wasn't yet Bishop MH Bishop sarim who of Chicago had performed the consecrations in 1960 uh Bishop Nikon Arch Bishop Nikon and I can't remember if there was anyone else the sen oh yes was much Vitali Vitali uh we had a good conversation but they said that for the moment we
cannot recognize you until the Greek Church puts his arm house in order and joins up together with um the other parts of the old calendar church we respect you we love you but L lay people can communicate each other church is no problem about that but we cannot for the moment can celebrate that was the basis of the discussion then MH but that was 1979 uh we continued on a personal level good relations particularly with us Bishop Lov and with uh Bishop Mark in Germany mhm uh so we come to 19 993 no yes 93
94 yes yes 93 because we were in communion with the Russian church with the Romanian Church and the Bulgarian all can Church MH enourage them to together with us to make a new approach to the Russian Church abroad uh the Romanians were accepted into communion before us the delegation went there led by m glassi who spoke with the Senate of the Russian Church abroad they found them to be completely Orthodox completely agreed with their point of view and entered in communion with them we I Metropol cian pres Metropolitan 40 of Bulgaria went to the glorification
of St John 1994 wasn't it yeah 1994 and there we had already submitted our application to renew the we had sent them the Ecclesia law iCal position paper which we translate into Russian MH and a commission had been set up by the Russian Senate consisting of Archbishop love Bishop Daniel and Bishop mishan to examine our ecclesiological point of view and to see if this was an agreement with those of the Russian Church abroad and if they could enter therefore into communion with the results of this commission was positive MH the day after the glorification of
St John there was a sinate well two days after was a sinate in San Francisco and they decided to enter into communion with the Bulgarian church with some reservations mhm about us Metropolitan 40 said I understand this but I will not enter into communion if I'm not ENT doing so also with the Greek Church would that convince them and uh they officially entered into communion with this then this was [Music] in August I think July a 1994 you probably have all documentation yeah it's roughly around that time yes what you've written on the subject and
so far as I can see you've done your work your homework well you've looked into the documentation and it's pretty accurate what you have to say I I can't even remember having found any specific mistake in here because you've based yourself on the document uh yes so this is [Music] 1994 from that on uh we had a pretty close relationship um particularly with Mar Bishop Mark in Germany we had the problem with the elinski skit then he came to gree uh the later Metropolitan elar came to Greece several times and served with us as did
Metropolitan Love and Other clergymen from the Russian Church abroad and we in America too I think our Bishops in California took part in the consecration Bishop pris Archbishop Gabriel chakov uh so relationship was very friendly Anthony San Francisco also as particularly close friend some of the Bishops were standoffish particularly Arch Bishop Anthony of Gena It was friendly but not any not anything beyond that uhhuh his point of view is different from us yeah how you probably know about his his point of view yeah he was different among the Senate of the rest of them yes
he definitely was a little different yeah so sship continued there were things going on in the Russian Church abroad we understood because we had many friends there that people people were pushing things towards Moscow I I know who the people are particular other Alexander liid not a victim but of L Metropolitan unfortunately Archbishop Mark too and to a lesser extent other people MH and these were the ones who are pushing things in that direction greatly to our distress and we warned them and we said we cannot we cannot follow you in this direction and set
out the reasons very clearly both we the Romanian Church the Bulgarian Church the it came to a head little before the the union several parishes in America joined us the two monasteries in England and so forth because of they taken couldn't couldn't go back any longer they were certainly on the way to Moscow and they didn't they absolutely didn't wish to take part in this Union mhm before the union took place they had to find some justification for breaking off communion uh they gave us a justification I think the church in South otia which uh
it's a very long story which is isn't doesn't belong to this m discussion but the church in Sou decided to leave the Russian Church abroad to been under Bishop um venam Min who had then separated from Russian chur abroad and to us to join us in we wrote to the Metropolitan was Metropolitan La at that point and he said okay we have his letter it was s a personal decision not a a cal One MH we accept them and took and up till now the church in south of city is under our jurisdiction so they
took that as as a pretext and to Romania they didn't have any pretext so they sent brother Alexander leig to try to persuade them to join the Romanian patriarch uh naturally nobody took him seriously L and he went back the same in Bulgaria they tried to persuade the Bulgarian Church to join the Bulgarian patriarch with a similar lack of success they didn't try that on us uhuh so that was a visit in 19 so he went there in 2006 and that was his intended purpose is to try to get the old calendar churches in Romania
and Greece to come into communion with the official patriarchies yes yes that's right interesting uh presumably this was one of the conditions that Moscow patriarch had put on them that but they also understood it would hardly be consequent on the on that to continueing commun with us so the union went ahead except for a number of of parishes you know the history on one Bishop I can thank you yes yeah uh you know they instructed him to go to South America uh appointed in Bishop of South America knowing that he would refuse to have a
reason to get rid of him yeah after which uh we were in a quander because there were several parts of the Russian Church abroad there was the autonomous Church in Russia was the church under Archbishop Lazarus in adasa there was the bishop AA fangel who we already knew well he had been to Greece over times in his um and after some debate we decided to to recognize Bishop like was the success at the Russian Church abroad to and to help him consecrate other Bishops for which we did I went to with another bishop and consecrated
forther Bishops for the Russian church under metropola Fango mhm so this is more or less history and when we are Senate United with the uh Orthodox Church of Greece that's uh in 14 uh this Union took place with us but together with us the union was signed by molan glassia 40 and Metropolitan aangel so these four churches remaining communion until the problems with the Romanians but that's not the question here MH what what infl what was there any indication around 2006 2007 that they were going to that the union was going faster than what you
had expected was there I know there were certain people like AR Archbishop Mark he was one of the architects of that Union from my understanding yes yes yeah the the people I mentioned s g too yeah uh amongst the Bishops the only two who really active were Archbishop Mar and andon the just followed along even yeah even those who were enthusiastic weren't really particularly active in that upon now for man was really not any longer in a state he was perhaps not scile but certainly not in a state to judge things properly any longer I
I read a letter from Arch Aram Andre Alexi and England uh to Archbishop Mark where Archbishop Mark is even though he was con celebrating consistently with the old calar that when the union came he that's when he turned and said that oh you're not Orthodox any longer and you're outside of the church is that kind of the it's an incredible change in him because we knew him well and I remember of discussion with him was talking about the present patriarch K would done some very bad things the Russian Church abroad in Jerusalem said I will
ever sit at the same table as that man now he's now he's his patriarch he in his case he was the change was very sudden mhm and completely unexplicable to me not saying it was insincere or anything because God knows his heart but it was certainly sudden and inexplicable to us was he the only Bishop that turned that way and or was there continued like even though there wasn't Eucharistic communion there were still friendly Rel relationss still good terms even though they weren't in communion or was he the only one that said now oh you're
out you're not with us so you're outside the church that seems to be the narrative that's going on nowadays from then on we really have not had any occasional meetings one thing or another September I met Bishop in London to discuss various things but for practical uh questions like we have friendly relations with many Bishops of the state Church in Greece we have any doesn't mean we're in Eucharistic communion or praying with them [Music] exactly does does um has any Bishop has I know they have they they ever said that we're not Orthodox because nowadays
especially among the young RoR and P priests they're that's the narrative is that they're trying to say they seem to have forgotten that our Bishops who are still alive and then who are their Bishops are still alive were con celebrating and they were in Eucharistic communion and now it seems that they're saying we're outside of the church were schismatic or apostates even was that the case with the Bishops after the the union even I don't think they could possibly do that it would make them look very silly if they did so but um I don't
recollect any such statement even on the part of the Moscow patriarch and there was uh a moment when Pat barolos was creating the schismatic church in Ukraine MH they said H we would be justified now in entering into communion with the Greek old calendar we were expecting a knock on the door but it never came now interesting on the part of certain Bishops the Moscow patriarch it was very there's always been a good deal of friendly relation ship on the part of others hostile beyond beyond description me particularly towards you yeah because I'm the bishop
of South astia go there regularly uhuh they consider that belongs to them and for those that don't know that what part of the world is that in that would be Northern Georgia the disputed territories up there yes this is in the Caucasus there is a people called The oans Who amongst the Caucasian people only they North Caucasian people that they only Christians the others are all Muslims uh it's divided into two parts the South part was incorporated into the Georgian Soviet Republic North part into the Russian Soviet Republic not one people in fact because of
the we can undescribed as lunatic policies of the first president of Georgia outside the S un gamaka he was a fanatic nationalist wish to expel all the Armenians and the aians that be together at half the population of Georgia W and the abcarians this set off a serious events which caused the South aians to declare the Republic a separate Republic or rather an autonomous oblast as it was before uh [Music] [Music] Church uh the Georgian patriarch it considers it to be part of its territory on the other cannot enter there there's now a fixed border
nobody can go across the Russian patriarchate also considers it the territory of the Georgian patriarchate so they have not opened any churches there it is uh therefore in a in a void and they when Bishop venin left the Russian Church abroad various reasons they decided to apply to us and they and we accepted them so I have been in charge there for more 25 years now yeah and I go there and look after them no priest for them and so forth oh interesting yeah that was it was very interesting and so you were really involved
in that whole process when how many times did you meet St fillette in your life well as a Layman one several times when he came to England I would go down with Bishop Nicodemus to Southampton because metol filler it never took an airplane came Europe on the boat every time in Southampton bring to London and but at that time I didn't speak Russian and Metropolitan feret only spoke Russ and Mandarin so we couldn't really get uh discuss anything together you said you said St fette spoke Mand I think so yeah at least so he spent
most most of his younger life did you ever hear him speak that or no no no no I think that would have been interesting fact I may be wrong don't I think he did when you met him what was he like you remember oh yes very just his to look at him inspired respect was a a very aesthetic figure uh very human at the same time had a good sense of humor like playing the piano was a good musician himself composed music church music he liked fishing when he came to England he would always go
fishing at the same time not very human F but a very very uh how can I say a person who inspired respect you and so several times Layman as a as a monk I think only once when I went to America 19 n 19 89 yeah we met him at jordanville you mean that would what would have been before that would have been 8 before 85 probably he died in 85 remember yeah yeah somewhere around the 80s yeah and we met him in 89 I must 89 right 89 we met him in Jordan uh are
they gone next there was the tonser of Bishop Gregory which was a bit comic because when they came for the Tona his head was like an egg they couldn't find a hair anywhere to cut cut a bit of beard that was uh Bishop Gregory grabbe right yeah what what so what was he like in in person H well he was astonishingly capable man MH uh a man of very great ability and intellect um and a man of great integrity I'm sure uh was he never got on with mopon Vitali oh really sidelined him as soon
as he took overh perhaps unfair I don't know this is beyond my what I can say MH yeah my man he was an impressive person impressive person in many ways and having been at the secretary of the sinate since the 1930s and known all people from Metropolitan anony onward uh was very clear Rec ctions of all of them and what they said and what their point of view was he was an encyclopedia himself yeah yeah he's yeah I'm very interested he's one of my very big interests I do I read a lot of his his
writings and what what you say seems to match up with his he's very intellectually capable and understood a lot of things AB very nice he spoke perfect Russian M French and German oh wow well I that was almost all the questions I had to ask of you I was very interested in just getting your what Memories you what what you could remember about the the history and how the rore treated us then and how they were how they felt about us even after uh they broke communion in 2007 because that um it was unfortunate today
that a lot of these new rore MP priests are they're being trained by other Juris and the OCA and other others and they're forgetting their history of who they were in communion with and want to get the the history straight and that they did recognize us as Orthodox Christians that they do still and uh so I wanted to collect your memories and thank you for being able to reach out to me and it was and I wish I could remember more I'm getting old well known my memories and what it was because yes I've been
the center of the relations both the Russian Church abroad and the Romanian Church and church since the beginning uh because I I speak Romanian too oh okay that's so Romanian Greek and English and Russian not so well but I can manage uhhuh and Italian and French and German so w that's why I'm in charge of the foreign missions polyglots yeah so means means they' been put in charge of too many things they need to get they need to get you some help I'm getting old now particularly for Africa I need yeah well that's what that
was all the questions I had and I thank you for giving me a chance to speak with you and collect some of your memories that are really invaluable like I said I've read what you've written on the subject and be completely accurate did someone give you my book or did uh or did you read it online right it's online right yeah yeah you put it into a book now yeah actually I have there it is right there uh yeah yeah so there's St John St gler s uranos and St Phil right on the cover right
there MH so yeah is uh oh it's funny because there you mentioned uh Alexander Leb Dev in 2006 when he went to Bulgaria trying to persuade them to join the patche see that's in that's that's something that uh I didn't know that's so that's oh then you also mentioned the ordination of Archbishop Gabriel there it is there with bishop oenos and metopon chos there but yeah that that 2006 meeting that's something I did not know that's something only you would have known since you were involved in the the in the intermixing so that's a good
historical uh tidbit that very good to know well if I can provide you with any other information you're always welcome to get through just willing we uh not in by email and then speak by hopefully I'll be in hopefully I'll be in Europe sometime at the end of the year maybe I'll be able to meet up with you if you're if you're there you're very welcome be blessed I know I see it's getting dark out there in the behind the door H yes yeah already died well Des your blessing wish you a great length of
spiritual progress thank you I'll be in touch again are you marri or unmarried married Mar yep yeah she's she just went to the store I just heard walk out but we we will talk again soon I'm sure good good God bless you thank you thank you talk to you soon
