Forever American Mortgage | Break It Down With Braydon

hey guys welcome to another episode of break it down with Braden super excited I got the forever American Mortgage Boys on with me today Sean Aram thanks for joining me good to be here than for having us um Sean and I have actually known each other for a couple years now just through the sawaro charity group and I've got to meet R just through the business and stuff it's been awesome to get to know these guys and just doing amazing things in the mortgage business and just wanted to have them on and kind of talk a little bit about what they got going on so Sean Aram tell everybody a little bit about kind of forever American Mortgage and how you got here today yeah yeah well Rah and I known each other for probably a better part of a decade and we actually started in the mortgage industry back at uh quick and Loans which is now rocket mortgage um and I think like many getting into the industry prior to getting in you have zero clue really what a mortgage is or what title is and uh you know most of the time you just know someone that happens to work in the industry that's doing pretty well financially and you're like so what exactly do you do so uh out of college you know initially I was looking in the hospitality industry I had a degree in international Hospitality management friend of a is working at uh quick loans and doing really well so um next thing I know there I am working in the mortgage industry um I think a ROM had a similar path prior you were working at I was an accting executive for a large uh Communication Company yeah uh first first job out of school eight years then what company was uh Cox Communications based out of Orange County ranchel Santa Margarita and I transferred to Arizona I had family up here I had my father up here and then my direct leader here sales leader his name was Jo JoJo camson he he quit within a month but we clicked and I was like where are you going and he said I'm going to quick and Loans not that it was a check's cash place I was like what why would you do that and he said no they do mortgages and and then he filled me in that you get a percentage of the loan amount so I was like percentage of the loan amount I already had thoughts of selling something larger than a small business accounts which were anywhere from $5 to $10,000 I was like I can sell something higher than this price point so I was looking at selling like Lambos or something um and then he said no man you get a percentage of the loan amount and that's how you get paid and I'm like well I've bought a home and the guy wasn't very good so I I think I can do that yep and he referred me and I started at Rocket like within months of him starting and this was late 2011 yeah so um been in the mortgages ever since and then Sean and I kind of clicked they're at Rocket and we've had a friendly Rel relationship ever since and we decided to go on our own about two years ago huh yeah and it's been it's big change too cuz like we were talking about with with rocket it's an Enterprise company and it's probably The Cutting Edge Of Industry training you know lar Le generator lead generator they have a billion dollar annual marketing budget but it's uh it's almost like a a breeding ground for cutting your teeth in the mortgage industry from licensing to education they spend a lot of time investing into their people to make sure you know exactly what you're doing but it's limited because an Enterprise company like that very compartmentalized has a what they call it morgage Banker you're a licensed loan originator but you're only doing about 50% of the transaction and you're really putting all your time and energy on the sales aspect um finding the right program for the consumer helping originate the application but then you're passing it off into the assembly line machine that is quick and Loan so there's multiple hands that are getting involved in the loan from start to finish where what we've since realized in the last 5 six years on the broker side is there's a lot more to the transaction coordinating with title and clearing loan conditions so we started at Rocket I think in 2018 2019 we had an opportunity to transition into the broker space and uh a colleague of ours uh guy named JJ started a shop called jfq lending and uh we caught lightning in a bottle pretty big didn't it it got pretty big we ended up doing about 10 billion in origination in in about a fouryear period so it was a great run and uh we were employees like number 28 and 29 right around that range yeah and then it ended up crusting over a thousand employees at the peak in like a two-year period y um the benefit is you know taking a step back when when Rob and I were at quick and Loans we were both in leadership so we ran sales teams when we went to jfq we got to see the growth of this company from the ground up figuring everything out not having the answers from technology to marketing to operations watching the systems grow watching the systems break and get fixed and grow and and uh luckily uh we also went down that leadership path at jfq as well we were recruited they wanted to run sales teams so as the company grew we grew we got to be in the inside of watching this company get built and ended up being the number one broker shop in the entire country by volume um and it bred a lot of great leaders and we are around extreme smart people and just seeing this thing get built in front of us and having a a say and and how it was getting built so you know one of the initial reasons we left quickin was just it felt too big you know it turned into kind of this Enterprise company it was it was less personal I say just a number you felt like a number at times and you have some of the best relationships you know professionally because you're spending so much of your of your life in this organization but they were expecting you to work like 80 hour weeks there and stuff too was your personal life it's 65 70 hours a week you're cutting your teeth and uh early in your career where you lack skill you're making up straight effort uh but a big reason we left Quicken was to kind of get that that you know smaller intimate mid-market feel yep and uh you know what we had left and joined at employees 29 and 30 turned into a thousand and we can kind of just see the writing in the wall like once you get to that size you're now an Enterprise size company there's processes it's the personalization you feel kind of just goes out the door and uh him and I both had aspirations to kind of get back to that intimate shop so had always discuss hey should we go build something and uh yeah I think that's what landed us cuz we're like one of the biggest things that I that I take back from jfq is we got Insight hindsight and then it was our foresight yep cuz we're like in it right and then they were like oh okay this this will what would it look like and I was like what do we really want and then just trying to map that out um one of them was balanced in our time and day and the 60-hour work weeks but on our time right we're building something entrepreneurship requires a certain amount of time but I'm like but you're building it it feels a lot it feels significantly different than when we're at rocking say you have to be here 60 hours yeah so that part of it really really like to me was like hey I need to age gracefully in this business and it's not going to happen here talk a little bit about fam kind of what does fam look like today it's uh it's it's got its legs underneath it you know anytime you're starting a business um for those that don't know mortgage Industries been challenging the last uh handful of years post uh covid uh we started seeing a lot of inflation from a lot of the money that the government printed and how you kind of try to curb inflation as you raise interest rates so we saw a very sharp increase in interest rates but home values didn't really uh come down so you know the cost of borrowing money whether it's a mortgage or a credit card or an auto loans got extremely expensive like most Americans have felt over the last handful of years so starting a mortgage company with the highest interest rates we've seen in decades was you know a challenge um you know luckily I think in Arizona and in our market we've uh seen a pretty consistent uh amount of homeowners moving and still buying houses but a majority of our career was on the refinance space so there was a little bit of a transition um one of the big challenges for ramen I was we were in leadership for the majority of our career so we ran sales teams we ran regions we never really advertised our personal brand we didn't need to right we worked at these lead generation shops that paid for Consumer direct marketing so even though people in our Circle knew what we did in a leadership role we weren't actively originating we were involved in almost every single loan through the team y so I think starting fam had a ton of unique challenges um High interest rates not spending a lot of time soliciting our own business because we never really did that yep um but what we quickly found is you know we had a wealth of knowledge that we had learned from quick and Loans rocket mortgage and jfq and luckily we're able to kind of like araman mentioned use our hindsight to kind of create our foresight take what we liked lead what we didn't um so it's awesome right now um we're on Pace to do over 100 million in origination uh for 2024 uh we have 13 full-time loan officers we're licensed in eight states and uh we've always had this vision of kind of having this hybrid model Aron mentioned kind of just having balance in life and that's kind of what we wanted to create to have longevity with our people and we're a people first organization uh not just with the clients we serve but you know the the employees that put their trust in us and show up day in day out with work and by hybrid model what we kind of had this vision for is working at Rocket mortgage that's a consumer direct shop what that means is that organization is paying to Market directly to Consumers and those consumers are inquiring directly with rocket mortgage jfq is very similar um so from a loan origination standpoint there's really two paths you can be kind of a a broker that goes and works with Realtors and builds referrals based on clients um through that transaction or a consumer direct Sho where the company goes and pays for marketing for people to call and we wanted to com the best of both and the reason that was is phone sales isn't easy it takes time to kind of acclimate to being told know countless times over and over again it's not for everybody yeah there's no relationship there there's no relationship it's very transactional we try to kind of make it personal and you know provide great experience for the consumers that do call in but they don't know you you're just a a name on a piece of paper um the benefit is we've been in that sales world for 10 plus years and being a leadership roles we've had hundreds of loan officers that we've developed over the years and you know very close relationships with our people so we brought them into the fold and we're saying hey like this is what you know we know how to convert when the phone rings we're going to make the phone ring for you but there's whole other great world of L origination you probably haven't seen and that's boots on the ground doing what you do right it's building those relationships and uh finding great referral Partners providing great service and we said Hey how do you create longevity in this industry you become a master of your craft right you're learning all these new products that Brokers can now offer You're Building relationships with Realtors um so it's great um you know it's it's it's always a new challenge that we're running into um it's it's something new every day oh yeah the cool thing on our side too is that once once we got pulled behind the curtain we saw the pricing difference between a rocket retail and a broker shop yeah and we already thought we provided value but now we're providing not only value but some some consumer pricing that's better for our clients so when we're up against the retail loone shop you know rocket Fairway yeah you have to pay all the marketing dollars that the Rockets having to pay so you're big it into your raids so you can have it more effective for your your clients yeah so we pay it back to the client we we might tell the realtor like that's working with Gilder or over one of these bigger shops hey this is money back in your client's pocket which increases their buying power so you got a $400,000 pre-approval now we're giving them $450,000 and that was the dove in hand that allowed us to create these relationships um and thankfully over the last two years it's led to Sean and I performing at a at a decent clip understanding that we weren't in production for a better part of a decade maybe early on and then going to leadership y um and that I think creates buyin with the people that work for us because we're in the trenches getting our hands dirty I'm not going to tell you to do something I'm not doing right now yeah and that has allowed us to to tip this scale our Direction and get to 100 million by the end of the year we got aspirations to hit 250 million next year same group of folks just um I would say just amplifying what we're doing and seeing if we can double up exactly what we're doing now with the group that we have right now love it yeah let's talk about goal since you brought it up so what's kind of what's on the horizon for fam what do you guys what do you want to see yeah so you know I let the cat out of the bag but 250 million is our goal for next year um I believe we can get there based off some things that we've created on on thankfully to Sean and the team efficiency side technology side it's took two years to kind of you know tweak and look at and like hey how can we get better here how can we hand this off and get back on the front of of uh originating and that's where a lot of our I think our history with rocket allows us to have a higher ceiling mentality because we see it if you come yeah we see I think um and I'll share a quick story but I went back to jfq and then in the beginning we were originating and in my mind I still had a retail mentality meaning uh 30 loans in a month was like that's that's like the mile Market I was getting a loan a day and within three months of being at jfq I think I originated 44 loans and 10 million in a month this was like March of 2019 and then Shan backed it up the following month with 38 and it wasn't something that was normal in a broker space but I didn't know any better right so understanding that we want to make sure our guys do not pull back just because they've originated 10 loans and it's you know that feels good we want to make sure that they have High cealing mentality and you don't get that unless you worked at the retail shops where they're pushing out 50 60 loans right yeah just doing crazy volume per loan officer yep well that's just you also had the just the education too from just doing all those different files and seeing all the different circumstances and things that arise on all those it just allows you to kind of train your team to know whenever those situations arise yeah you could see thousands of credit profiles in a in the process of a year y giving you maybe dog years in when it comes officer so a lot of times they're like oh he doesn't have any history of doing well like I looked at a th credit profiles in a year how many have you looked at yep yeah there's the two different caveats right so like on the retail side you get the education side no question about it the licensing and everything and then you're kind of missing the relationship side of things like you mentioned you guys have kind of created the hybrid great well not only that you you just don't know what you don't know when you're working directly at a bank it's called a delegated or direct lender they have their product mix and that's it one of the coolest parts starting fam is now you just get this you know Whole New World being a loan originator as a broker where there's all these crazy loan products you had no clue about and just the confidence knowing there's not a single loan product I can't offer my client to get to the finish line and telling the clients hey like our loyalties is to you you getting the best deal you having the right loan product for your situation not these wholesale lenders that we have relationships with Y so talk a little bit about that for people that maybe don't understand the nuances of that without getting into the mortgage nerd stuff uh you know there's the traditional programs that some may have heard of like the conventional loan or the government loans like FHA and VA that fit into a certain box but then there's other times where let's say a self-employed borrower you know the nature of self-employed you carry a lot of overhead and expenses these are often writeoffs so your taxable income is maybe a lot less than what you're actually bringing in you might go to one of these big shops and try to get a loan and they're going to look at your tax returns and say hey well your net income after your write offs is only this amount you're like well no I make this but I write all this stuff off with a broker you have this whole other world of loan programs you can do p&l loans profit and loss loans bank statement loans heck as crazy as it sounds there's even loan programs that exist to this day that are no income and investors will say hey if you have enough strong compensating factors like a really big Equity position in a house we're going to say hey you don't need to show income so those are far and few in between but just having that in your back pocket allows you to kind of just be that One-Stop shop that we've always tried to advocate for yeah them just fitting into this box you get outside and look at I can't tell you how many conversations we had at quick and where you know someone had a 620 credit score and didn't meet a certain guideline and we would say with 100% confidence Bren you can't do anything you got to wait y but the reality is there is a loan program so maybe someone does really need help they really want to get a house and they get denied at a shop often times we were able to save these deals where they were told no somewhere else and they come to us for a second opinion we like hey you know what but this does work so it just gives more opportunities to kind of just be that true uh broker to find the best situation for your client yep what's been the uh biggest hurdle with being a business owner now I mean everything and anything in between I think the biggest thing for me is just this burden which is a great burden to carry of just showing up day and day out for your people yeah for your for your clients for your employees and just the understanding that I'm a big believer in free market at Ram is as well we've worked at other shops where they almost have this ownership over you like you have to work here and I could not be further from that mentality I have this mentality that I have to be the best opportunity for you Arizona in the mortgage world is a brick and mortar state which means you have to have a physical office here to be able to have an Arizona license and there's a lot of opportunity out here for ly originator to go to numerous shops so we feel honored that our people choose to work with with us through this startup and I think it's just that understanding that value every day to these to show up you know and RAM and I play so well off each other's strengths and weaknesses to kind of just be there for our team um you know one of the big phrases is consistency compounds and you know we try to be as consistent as possible for our team and also transparent that hey we don't have it all figured out we're going to make mistakes we're going to you know try some stuff out that might not work it could fall flat on its face and that's part of it you know so I can't put a singular point to it but probably just making sure that we show up consistency is for sure the hardest part I think um I always tell the team and tell Sean I'm like you're going to get the same Aram every day cuz I like we we joke about this but we used to have leadership that would switch up their their their code coming into the office like I'm going to be the mean guy or I'm going to be the disruptor and I'm like and I was like to me that's a cona so I'm like around I choose to wake up every day whether I'm happy or I'm going to be myself um you know thankful for another day and then I come in office and I'm the same no matter what now there might be a message we got to send and we got to you know coach and things of that sort but I'm like that's not going to switch up the code yeah I'm not putting on some front or whatever to present to you in a different way today just cuz my attitude changed this morning or whatever right or just because you walked in and maybe you you we had a bad business day yesterday and now you want to get up someone's ass or something like that and I'm just like that can't be it that's not the answer and we've gotten people that recently joined us saying this is exactly why we're here y your guys's consistent message even whether it's on social media whether it's when I see you in the street it never changes and I'm like yeah this is it doesn't have to change if I'm authentic yep and that's what leads to a lot of the folks having this in like they're ingratiated to us because of that and I'm like yeah I'm not going to change guys this is who I am I'm a man in my 40s why would I need to switch up code for what I don't need to be anything that I'm not yeah no very good point um what's kind of some stuff that you're excited about just in the real estate industry man well praying that these rates hopefully come down yeah what's kind of your prediction on that you got any any crystal ball or anything I wish and anyone says otherwise has no clue what they're talking about it's uh it's hard to say you know one of the things that we just say is control what we can control yep you know it's hard to speculate I think you know you can ask 100 people and probably get a 100 different answers so I try to spend time not predicting you know I I anticipate future raid Cuts uh we said that for the last two years y ironically we just have that Fed rate cut it helped rates temporarily that was like a good two we run two we run it was the refi boom of 2024 on fire there what most people don't understand is that you have a pretty good sentiment of what the fed's going to do prior to them actually making the announcement and that gets baked into the rates prior to the actual announcement itself so rates were actually getting lower and lower leading up to that rate cut and ironically when the rate cut actually happened they went up that day so you know the long story short of it is what's good for the economy bad for mortgage rates what's bad for the economy good for mortgage rates so the recent climb that we've seen in the last handful of weeks is kind of due to a stronger job market we're seeing more jobs created than we anticipated so mortgage rates are all just based on speculation it's these reports that come out whether it's job growth or what they think the fed's going to do ultimately we can send time speculating y yeah speculation even on like who's going to win the elections and okay well now they kind of think that he's going to win so now the markets are actually kind of yeah kind of going that way I almost put money the opposite direction if it's so you know like wait a second yep um on a local level I always say hey once the price has been accepted it doesn't go down so we've seen two years of rates being in the sevens or on a 30-year fixed just conventional mortgage Y and people are placing off and homes are getting sold I was like once that price like yesterday's price is not today's price anymore yep so we've seen you know drastic changes here locally I remember buying my house in 2010 I couldn't like I had no idea I was coming from San Diego I thought it was the cheapest thing ever I was like Wow and now I look at it and I'm like $700,000 conventional mortgage is what it is and now it's bumped up to 800,000 so on a local level I foresee things to continue to increase and let alone if rates drop yeah um we're in a we're in a weird market and there's a few markets like this throughout the US and thankfully for us it's good for business because people are going to buy homes and people are going to keep moving to Arizona yep see your California you see the Washingtons you see the idah Hol you see people coming in we have a lot of clients coming in from out of state yep and more and more shitty weather things going on around the country where people are going to go okay you know what they got a lot of sun out there yeah like looks Prett nice yeah you know the state income tax isn't that bad it's not completely zeroed out but it's it's nominal in comparison to California and these other states um and we see that too we see the people coming from the East Coast maybe even tenee and coming back this way I think on a local level I for see us going through another boom in the next year I do believe there's something else catastrophic happening but that's just the conspiracy theory in me you know but what do you mean there I like we have what almost two or three assassination attempts on on Trump and there's a lot of weird stuff happening in the markets if you look at you know historically at the Dow Jones and how it's how it's gone up so significantly in the last let's say 10 years y what's going to happen so um I don't like things that go up must come down right so I think something weird is going to happen I don't know what it is um but there's always that Black Swan event on the horizon it's always something yeah well and we talked a little bit about interest rates and like the big you know an analyst and the mortgage guys is always the Barry khabib you I always hear his his his predictions or whatnot I think all of his predictions in the last two years have been wrong completely wrong you know so like you mentioned in the beginning someone that actually as the crystal baller says they do it's just a liar it canot be more actually predict interest rates today like please get on my team and let's figure this out yeah we'll be very very rich trillionaires for that matter but and if Barry doesn't have it I don't have it I for sure like literally everyone thinks he's the guy and all of his predictions are wrong sure the guy but yeah I I'm like whoa he's off he's been saying rates in the fives for a long time Y and they're not there yet what talk a little B about your team so you guys got 13 Originators on the team now yeah what's kind of the makeup of the of the team like I like I was mentioning being in being in leadership the coolest part about our careers is we' just met awesome people along the way people that started their career with us like brand new first month doing Lan origination so you know we've had a lot of people reach out over the last two years and were they from quickin from jfq combination combination all the above yeah and we've done really no active recruiting you know we've actually just had people kind of come to us and um so it's kind of a cherry-picked group of guys and girls that we just feel like we have a kinship with and uh we have aspirations double um my mentality as a business owner is until we have too many leads that we know what to do with and people can't even handle the amount of lead flow that we're providing them we don't have a Personnel issue we have a marketing issue so we're right now kind of in that phase where month over month we're seeing serious growth because we're making big Investments back into our marketing regardless of what the Market's doing and just want to get to that point where our team has more opportunity than they know what to do with and at that point probably go back and start adding the right people to it but we've had kind of the mentality of slow consistent growth you know don't put the car in front of the horse I almost take pride in saying I'm not a recruiter yeah so I and Sean as well I'm like I'm not going to recruit anyone I don't want to yep and not I'd rather have the right folks reach out to us and then we can vet it out um we have a like we have a good group we have four bilingual loan officers including myself um and then we have two homegrown talents and then the rest come from you know inside the mortgage industry work at jfq or rocket um just a good group of folks one big thing that we do say is like coming in the office I do not want to feel like I can't come in and talk to the folks that are in there because someone's throwing off the energy and the vibe in our office so you know and we have a little bit of everything like I just said we have bilingual we have we have a woman and I can say confidently we walk in every day and we know that our folks are going to be good folks Y and it's easy you know it gets really difficult when we were in a situation where you had to cater to someone and it makes it a really difficult work environment that you're consistently having to cater to one personality and you know I pray all the time I think we don't have we don't have that issue yeah and we're not the issue either so I'm like we're going to bring our Vibe and we want to make sure that people fall in line there and no one should feel awkward or say can I work from home cuz I you know some such and such makes me feel a little none of that well like you mentioned in the beginning if you're being your authentic self then you're going to bring people around that are being that same way and they're not putting on this fictitious front or whatnot to kind of be who they're not yeah no toxicity nothing I think another big thing we work in these spots where you're an adult in your career but you had this immense pressure that you were always kind of on the chopping block even if you doing everything right and it was hard to balance life and things would get kind of caught up to you whether it's doctor appointments or just errands you had to run and this existed in these kind of like high volume call center where every single month the scoreboard resets to zero so you always have quotas to hit and it's very hard to find that life balance and RAM and I are big proponents they on the authenticity but B just treating people with respect and like an adult you know these people are in their career making a living for themselves they clearly want to make a living for themselves I can't be ignorant to think I want it more than person does they have to support themsel their family whatever the case may be so we've had the mentality of you know just communicate with us and we're going to be very reasonable like you get to take a day no problem like we get it this stuff comes up you want to work from home no problem so we actually have kind of a fun office on in Arcadia um we spent you know time kind of Designing it and making it kind of feel like home like an apartment yeah it kind of feels like that but you know we got a good group and there's something to be said about like having the fervor of a sales floor where you can look to your left and your right you know sales is a game of nose so it's nice to be kind of around people all same thing but at the same time we're just been big proponents of just letting people live their life and you know there's a key piece to this too cuz I'm an early riser so I like to get in early so I'm in at 6 but 4 pm. I got kids I got a coach I you know I want to be heavily involved in what they're doing and be at home and be present um so I made it optional for people to show up at 6 with me I was like hey I'll give you some extra time we can revieww your calls we can coach we can do things that'll be a little extra but 8 to4 is our regular schedule y I'm like and that's what we'll hold you accountable to and honestly over the course of like the last 90 days we have half the group in there at 6 6:30 with me um not forced very organic and it's made for a really really good sales environment because now people are getting better at what they at their craft outside of their typical working hours which I think is what it takes y um if you're going to get better at anything you got to do it outside of what you know in the trenches and I think that's been a cool Dynamic for us too that people are willing and able to do a little extra uh without having that you know Force coming down their neck um part of the reason we we did this as well is we remember having to get a haircut or something oil change or dropping off a car and like our CEO going off where you going youing yeah I'm like I'm here 6:00 a. m.

like I said said I'm early R I'm here at 6:00 a. m. I leave at 600 p.

m. and me leaving for an hour to go get a haircut becomes an issue I'm like that is crazy y so we've we've you know LED with with that in mind and understanding that there still is accountability within the business day y but there's going to be things that you need to accomplish or do on your own personal just let us know be transparent say hey next Friday I got a doctor's appointment I like put it in our calendar yep like life happens I say that to my team all the time like you got stuff that's going to come up it is what it is just make sure your numbers are there and you hold yourself accountable like at the end of the day like you got bills to pay and you you got goals and objectives and things you want to hit like it's on you there's different chapters of life you know we have uh you know luckily some some some new families uh within forever American a couple of our loan officers just recently either about to have their first kid having a recent kid yeah exactly which is awesome one of the things that's been really effective for us is we just ask you know what do you want to be held accountable to it's a lot easier when someone comes up to it on their own goal right yeah like what is it that you want and we don't mind we've created an ecosystem where the data we have is readily available kind of a shark tank style yep so if you need more balance and you got some other stuff going on just tell us so we we're visible and we can kind of plan our marketing accordingly and and structure it to where it fits and it makes sense for us and you but we don't try to blanket message we try to avoid that we've been we've been you know victims of that yeah to say the least of you know just one size fits all answers and that's just not the case in life and sales is cyclical right there's times where you can be on but other times maybe you're theying a set back and there's other things you have to balance so it's been effective for us you also know sales is the ultimate meritocracy like you can't fake activity for achievement you close a loan you're going to make money or you do a deal you're going to make some money so there's no way of Faking it yeah so I'm like hey that's why I like sales I'm like the cream always Rises to the top you can't say I get better leads than you you can't any any sales environment Car Sales Tech sales whatever it is it's all meritocracy you got to get paid what you know what you deserve or earned yep and I I don't think there's a better environment as far as work like if I told my children I was like you should probably do sales first of all you probably need to be a waiter or in the service industry first you cut your teeth there go work somewhere where people are going to you know chew your head off because it's undercooked overcooked or whatever be L you a little bit yeah get get into sales and you'll see what the ultimate meritocracy looks like yep I love it yeah you guys have created a just an amazing culture and just kind of a a family in the mortgage industry you see I did there I you did appreciate that uh for anybody that wants to kind of learn more about the fam how can they get a hold of you guys uh handles forever American Mortgage website forever American mortgage.